Up next in 10
Ali Miraj and LBC callers mull over the local election results and consider whether Keir Starmer could be the 'death of the Labour Party'. 0:00 | Ali Miraj reacts to Labour's local election 'pummelling' 6:17 | Milo says both Labour and the Tories are 'on their way down' 11:57 | Joe calls on Starmer to 'pick up the phone to the EU and rejoin' 16:28 | How can Farage be riding high in the polls after his £5m 'gift'? 20:09 | Aggie Chambre sheds light on the feel inside the Labour Party 27:31 | John labels Farage a 'one trick pony' and asks if he can really govern 31:47 | Diane goes head-to-head with Ali over his description of Labour 35:50 | Simon says the 'elites have run the UK into the ground' Labour has ceded hundreds of seats with losses across the country in the local elections, from key battlegrounds to classic strongholds. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #alimiraj #elections #greenparty #zackpolanski #reform #nigelfarage #ukpolitics #debate #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Gosh, what a dismal set of results
0:02
It was priced in, but boy, it's sobering. It's all over. It's all over the front pages of every newspaper you can imagine
0:12
Let me just give you a flavour here. The Times, Labour's historic battering
0:17
The Daily Mail, Starmer told it's time to go. The Guardian, dire election results, poll pressure on PM
0:24
The Mirror is talking about something different. Daily Express, Farage's vow to fix Britain
0:31
And the Eye is basically saying Farage plots part of number 10 as reform success plunges Starmer into fight for political life
0:38
Not a good set of headlines, as you can imagine, after the absolute drubbing that the Labour Party have received
0:46
Reform UK now has more than 1,300 councillors, could be on a course for even more
0:53
Early counting showed that Sir Keir Starmer's party was, this is just from when it was all happening, was holding Halton, Chorley and Nosley, but ceded control of the likes of Hartlepool and Tameside
1:10
Now Labour has lost control of the Senate in Wales, ending its 27-year reign in Wales
1:17
And Reform UK has been the big winner of the day, picking up hundreds of seats across the country
1:23
Overwhelmingly, the two-party system has begun to fall apart in these elections
1:29
The Lib Dems made some minor gains. Most of the Labour losses mean councils have moved to no single controlling party
1:36
The Conservatives, Labour and the Lib Dems have all managed to hold on to the majority of their own councils
1:40
but reformers flip councils from both Labour and the Conservatives. And all of it's looking pretty dire for the Prime Minister
1:50
a leading story in the Financial Times weekend. Labour MPs call on Keir Starmer to quit after heavy election defeats
1:59
Keir Starmer is facing mounting calls to quit as prime minister after a calamitous set of election results for Labour
2:08
as Nigel Reforms UK make a historic advance across Britain. Starmer insisted on Friday he would not resign and plunge the country into chaos
2:20
But his grip on power has weakened after his party was obliterated in Scotland and Wales
2:26
The Labour Welsh First Minister, Eleonan Morgan, called for Starmer's government to go back to the party
2:32
being the party of the working class, as she announced her resignation
2:39
Look, it's pretty dire all round, really. and I think clearly there's going to be a lot of soul-searching going on in the Labour Party
2:48
But this thing really struck me. This is Ian Lavery, one of these left-wing MPs, who said this
2:56
Keir Hardie started the Labour Party. It could be another Keir, Keir Starmer, that could end the party forever
3:06
could Keir Starmer be the death of the Labour Party? Could Keir Starmer be the death of the Labour Party
3:16
0345 6060 973, text 84850. Let me just tell you this, because Sir Keir Starmer has written a piece in The Guardian
3:26
under the title, These election results don't mean tacking left or right
3:31
but delivering for the whole country. He says there's frustration that led to today's political fragmentation because beneath the surface, the concerns expressed across different communities have more in common than some would like to admit
3:45
He says at the general election, we earned a mandate to deliver change, but we have not sustained the public's trust that we are doing enough and we have made unnecessary mistakes, he says
3:57
he says it was important that we can improve the lives of people, that their future can get better
4:02
and that we can give them hope. Doesn't mean tacking to the left or right, means bringing
4:07
together a broad political movement, being assertive of our values, bold in our vision
4:11
and addressing people's demands. He also said effectively that he wasn't going to
4:17
go anywhere, he wasn't going to plunge the country into chaos were his words and to be fair
4:23
The bond markets actually came back a bit in terms of the cost of debt after he made those pronouncements
4:31
because the financial markets don't want to see turmoil here. But I tell you this, when Sir Keir Starmer says things like, I want to go further and faster, right
4:41
Further and faster to what exactly? I mean, what does the Labour Party actually stand for now
4:48
I mean, if you're looking at places where reform picked up seats right in the heart of the Red Wall, right in Andy Burnham and Angela Rayner's backyards, what does the Labour Party actually stand for
5:03
Does it stand for working class voters? Well, they're leaving them in droves
5:07
Does it stand for urban intellectual professionals who are going in their droves to the Green Party
5:14
What are they doing? When he says further and faster, I tell you this. Further and faster to what, Prime Minister
5:20
Further and faster to what? Further and faster to landlords being completely stuffed over the renters' rights bill
5:25
Further and faster to tenants being completely stuffed over the renters' rights bill
5:29
because there are going to be fewer houses. Further and faster to restaurants and hospitality being completely done over
5:35
by the triple whammy of the increase in national insurance business rates and the minimum wage
5:41
People being further and faster being stuffed who are looking for a job who can't find one
5:45
because the realisation has dawned that it's better to have a job at lower pay
5:49
than to have no job at all. Further and faster to what, Prime Minister
5:53
To the decimation of the country? Oh, maybe further and faster to growth
5:57
which remains completely flat-lined and utterly paltry. I do wonder if the Labour Party
6:06
now that stands for welfare above everything else and with the removal of the two-child benefit cap
6:11
whether the Labour Party should now be rebranded the layabout party. So I've got two points here
6:19
and we need to kind of zoom out a little bit. The reality of the situation
6:24
is that Labour is being pulled apart in multiple directions, both reform outside cities
6:30
and by the Greens inside. Now, there are two points that always get forgotten in this discussion
6:39
which is Labour, because it is primarily now a urban party, but has a lot of rural seats by virtue of the outcome of the last election
6:48
has to look at ways of conserving those seats. Now, in practice, what they need to start looking at
6:56
is either something akin to what they have in Australia and Germany
6:59
which is basically you have a country Labour Party of subscription which align broadly on the economics
7:07
but on social policy is given freedom to deviate and they coordinate policy at a national level
7:13
so they caucus with Labour together. In practice this is going to be a very
7:20
fundamental shift that would need to happen because the National Party obviously want to keep as much control as possible We saw that over Andy Burnham And we seen that increasingly with you know Starmer pronouncer that I the only person that can hold this thing together
7:36
And actually, to a certain extent, he has a point, because changing the leadership doesn't change the structural problem
7:42
that they are facing two extremes at the same time, and they can't face both
7:46
And now they are stuck in this very big quandary, as are the Conservatives, quite frankly
7:52
because it's unclear as to whether they are immigration focused or whether they are big on lower taxes
7:58
which explains why they're gaining in places, say, like Westminster, but losing hands down in Essex
8:04
And so what you're seeing is this fracturing of the two big tent coalitions of Labour and Conservative
8:12
and ultimately it's a race between the pair of them to see who can actually get their ducks in a row first
8:17
to be able to provide a credible challenge to the electorate. Because at the moment, both of them are on their way down and they need to seriously look not just about communication, which is something they can do something fundamentally about, but are those institutions in their current form fit for purpose
8:36
When you hear that Keir Starmer on the back of all of this, Milo, and we always hear about lessons will be learned and we need to think and we need to move further and faster
8:46
This morning it emerged that Gordon Brown is going to be appointed as the prime minister's special envoy on global finance
8:51
You're a finance man. I'd like to hear your view on that. And also, Harriet Harman has been appointed his advisor on women and girls
8:59
Can I just say this, Milo? If Keir Starmer thinks that any of this was about the Labour lack of delivery for women and girls
9:08
does he really think that reform's landslide in their Labour heartlands was about women and girls and lack of support
9:14
Come on. Seriously. No, and exactly. And I think the problem is he's not addressing the fundamental concerns
9:20
just digging up people from 20 years ago who, you know, in Brown's case, they resoundingly trashed at the ballot box
9:27
and granted, you know, his arguably valiant efforts during the financial crisis weren't enough to save him
9:34
because people were tired by that point. And the fact is, yes, you can get all of these old figures around because they're the only ones willing to do it
9:43
and they're not elected anymore. Great. But it's not actually addressing the fundamental issues
9:49
They have two big problems here. One is, to your point, around welfare
9:56
Where is the incentive to actually get the economy going? If you're a higher earner, you've still got this invidious 62% tax trap over 100K
10:06
which has been left frozen for decades now. And actually, everything looks like a tax on aspiration
10:15
It does. And so, and they, but that obviously isn't something that they can also say in constituencies that are out of urban areas, because that is, you know, a vastly different series of concerns around immigration and lack of services
10:30
Yes. And it's a question of squaring that circle. I don't think with Stalin's communication style and everything else that he has
10:37
and obviously you know that my stated position is that he should have gone about seven months ago
10:42
is that actually the structural problems in the Labour Party are so fundamental now
10:49
that they really need to look at how they can devolve power properly
10:53
so that they can actually get policies to have. because you have to take into account
10:57
that when you think that Shabana Mahmood has had a colossal amount of success granted
11:03
in getting immigration off the front page... Not even a contender for the Labour Party leadership
11:07
Sure, she's not even a contender for the Labour Party leadership. That's one point. But also the fact that those results in reform areas
11:15
are still dismal in spite. That's true. I mean, that tells you something so fundamental
11:21
about Keir Starmer and the people around him that in spite of actually delivering
11:26
the communication has been so bad that it couldn't neutralise the anti-immigration message
11:32
that has been coming out of reform. Okay, a lot of food for thought to think about, Milo
11:37
Finish your point, go on. Yeah, so where I think the Labour Party really needs to go
11:41
is they can look at structural reform to get rid of Keir Starmer within the year
11:46
That's all very well and good, but they really need to look at
11:49
how they are going to tap into rural voters to keep the safe that they have
11:54
They haven't got anywhere else. Thank you very much, Milo. I think it will be the end of the Labour Party
11:59
because I remember speaking to you a few months ago and you said to me, in one word
12:03
what should Kersama do? And I said, resign. Those were months ago. Now, if he wants to save his premiership
12:12
and the Labour Party by extension, what he should be doing now is, number one
12:18
picking up the phone to the EU and asking them, where can I sign so that we will rejoin
12:23
That's the first thing. Number two, he picks up the phone to Vladimir Putin
12:27
and says, where can I sign so that the Russian energy starts flowing again
12:33
Whether he likes it or not, all these intellectual... I'm sorry, by the way
12:38
when he signs with the EU, we can have all the builders and electricians come back in and begin to build the houses that we need
12:45
Because I remember in your opening dialogue earlier, you were talking about the rental rights
12:50
and the Renters Reform Bill for landlords and tenants. If we have more houses, that would solve the problem
12:57
If we have more houses, that would increase the tax take from the selling and the buying and the building and the paying
13:02
And at the end of the day, it comes down to the economy
13:07
There is no labor restructuring or all these academic intellectual exercises. If you're getting taxed to death
13:14
and you see immigrants or illegal immigrants or asylum seekers or whatever they are called
13:21
living tax-free in a building, you are going to be angry. And that is where reform builds
13:29
But aren't you also going to be angry, though, if you voted for Brexit
13:33
and we were told that this was a settled thing and then you've got a prime minister
13:37
who didn't stand on rejoining the EU and you're saying, Joe, that he should be going down that road
13:42
What then happens to all those people who are now voting reform in Labour heartlands
13:47
I mean, what happens to them? What happens to them is we've had Brexit now
13:51
and everybody has seen how the economy has gone. So I'm sure in private they would admit
13:58
that this was a failure of an exercise. OK, so you're telling them to go down that road
14:02
OK, it might appeal to the... Look, at least it's picking a lane joke. I'll give you that, right
14:07
At least it's picking a lane to try and maybe appeal to some of the voters that are peeling off to the Greens
14:12
for various reasons. But there's another element too, which we haven't talked about
14:16
which is touched on in a piece by Alison Pearson in The Telegraph today
14:21
who writes about reform's great victory of Essex Mann. And she basically says, sick of being dismissed as racist
14:29
Essex Mann has turned to reform and says this. They want Britain to be British
14:36
They feel liked by Nigel, not judged and detested. They don't think they're far right or racist
14:41
because they want to deport illegal migrants or because they're shocked that 1.5 million migrants
14:45
are claiming benefits, Joe. Exactly. And if you're being taxed out to your eyeballs
14:51
and people are claiming benefits, you are going to be angry. Yes
14:54
However you slice it it comes down to the economy Now I want to make a comparison There was a BBC documentary on the rise of Hitler and all that kind of stuff And they said before the economic depression in Germany in the 1930s rather
15:10
Germany was awash with cash. Everybody was happy and life was good. Nobody cared about looking for a scapegoat
15:16
When the economy is tough, you look for scapegoats. It's simple as that. You can recycle that simple principle however you like
15:24
In difficult times, people look for scapegoat, and that is what is happening now. People are being taxed to death
15:29
There are no jobs. You can't even open a business because your bills are so high
15:34
So it's set out ground for scapegoating. It's simple. It's very interesting that you say that taxes are too high
15:42
because there are lots of people on the Labour left who want Starmer, and this is what the unions want
15:48
and certain people within the Labour Party want, including Andy Burnham, I guess
15:52
want him to tack even further to the left. And I'm thinking to myself, how much more can you squeeze the cow
15:57
This cow is absolutely squealing at the moment. But Ali, they want to tax more because they want to pay for the people on benefits
16:05
Well, that's exactly the point I made, which is why they should be rebranded the Layabout Party
16:09
No, no, no, but you're missing the point. If there's enough jobs and economic activity, people on benefits will be working
16:17
People who are being taxed to the eyeballs will not be taxed as much. and the temperature in the country will be reduced
16:23
I understand. It comes down to the economy, however you slice it. Okay, understood
16:28
I don't quite get this still now, obviously after the polls. Because just the way that the country is looking at the moment
16:34
if we want to change the Prime Minister again, I mean, we did vote for stability last time
16:39
after all the change that was in the Tory party. And I know he's boring and I know he's, you know, a bit dull
16:46
But, you know, I don't want drama. I don't want stability. I mean, Andy, I don't get the fact that there's a guy here that can take five million quid off a crypto billionaire and won't tell you who owns his house
16:58
He's riding high in the polls. But the bloke that bought a field so his disabled mum could look at donkeys out of the window is wrecking the country and therefore no good
17:08
Ned, yeah, no, I do. I do. Ned, just on this point, though, let me put my own cards on the table
17:13
And I said this earlier this week on Sky when I was asked about this
17:16
in relation to Starmer, if I was an advisor to Keir Starmer
17:22
I would say that all these union people and all these people on the left
17:27
who are disgruntled about your leadership, I mean, look, I'm disgruntled about his leadership
17:30
I think he's absolutely useless in many ways, other than he called Iran, right? What I would say is this
17:35
power is taken, never given, right? So if they want to take you out
17:38
let them take you out of Downing Street by your fingernails, right
17:43
You don't have to go anywhere. You don't have to resign, principally because resign for who
17:48
Resign for who? Wes Streeting, who hasn't had the guts yet to put his head above the parapet
17:52
Despite the fact that we were hearing in the stories and briefed in the papers, there's got 81 MPs to go
17:57
Well, Wes, now's your chance. Stand up. Angela Rayna's still got her tax affairs to deal with
18:02
Andy Burnham's not even in Parliament and getting into Parliament's going to be jolly difficult at the moment
18:07
What's a safe Labour seat right now? So what's the alternative to Starmer
18:10
The people who want him out have got to tell what is the alternative
18:14
and don't expect a prime minister to set a timetable for his departure
18:18
to be a dead man walking. Why would he do that? It's ridiculous. It just plays into this whole sort of moaning narrative
18:25
Absolutely. I mean, ever since... I mean, we got rid of the Tories in quick order for all the reasons that we should have got rid of them
18:30
Yeah. You know, and as soon as this Labour government started, I mean, they shot themselves in the foot
18:35
with the pensioners, you know, heating thing, right? I don't think they've quite ever got over that
18:39
No, I agree with you. But the thing is that, you know, any policy that's announced is instantly a disaster
18:46
Working, you know, the minimum wage goes up. Oh, you're going to crash business
18:51
Oh, workers' rights, oh, antipresist. But, you know, so number one, I think they've got to get hold of the narrative
18:58
But number two, I mean, I've been listening, you know me, I listen to them all day long
19:02
People keep saying change. We want change, we want change, change, change. I've yet anyone to define what change actually means
19:08
I mean, if you want to tax people, why aren't we taxing Amazon? you know, rather than taxing that, you know, the billionaire or the this debt or the hundred grand earner or da-da-da-da-da
19:19
You know, why is my housing, why is housing so blasted expensive
19:24
You know, like, you know, why can't we do something about making, you know, I mean, I walked past them flats over there in Clapham
19:31
I walked past them in the 90s. They were 120 quid a week in the 90s
19:35
You know, they're 500 pound a week now. It's the same flipping flat
19:39
You see what I mean? I mean, how do we, like, let, you know, we should, as a sort of social society, it'll be like, no, you only pay that amount for that, that amount for that, because people, you know, stuff is getting more expensive
19:52
I get it, Ned, but then you're going down the road of rent controls, which has been brought in by a mayor in Spain, actually, the mayor of Barcelona, I believe, has done exactly this
20:03
But then have the courage, if you want to have that conversation and go down a leftist cul-de-sac, then at least have the courage to do it
20:09
aggie terrible results how long has the prime minister got terrible terrible results for the
20:15
labour party not just in wales or in scotland but in england uh to so far losing 1400 seats and
20:23
and the question of how long he has is what basically every single labour mp is talking
20:30
about at the moment as it stands we've had over 30 labour mps on the record either calling for him
20:37
to go now or for calling for there to be some sort of timeline for him to go unless things improve
20:45
substantially. And we've heard from a couple of those Labour MPs this morning. So this is
20:50
Labour MP, veteran Labour MP Graham Stringer. I've never come across such personal animosity
20:57
towards any of Labour's leaders. I think for whatever reasons and on the doorstep
21:04
the winter fuel alliance comes up more than anything else. He has lost credibility
21:10
And if the Labour Party wants to win the next election, if we want to do the things that this country needs
21:18
then we can't do it with Kia. And it's as simple as that
21:22
I hope you can find a dignified way out by announcing at a time scale a schedule
21:29
so that the Labour Party can have a serious policy discussion and elect a new leader
21:36
And this is the leader of the soft left Tribune group and former Transport Secretary Louise Haig
21:44
But we have to be honest that the Prime Minister and national issues came up on almost every single door
21:51
The Prime Minister is doing an exceptional job on the international stage, managing a global crisis
21:57
which he has to be successful in because our constituents' livelihoods depend on it
22:02
so we cannot descend into a messy internal and irresponsible leadership contest but the results
22:09
today are crystal clear if the government do not deliver significant and urgent change
22:15
then it's absolutely clear the prime minister cannot take us into another election so we've
22:21
got mps uh like that speaking on the record but there are so many more off the record and And for a lot of those who are speaking about a timeline for him to go or go in a year if he hasn improved let give him a few more months
22:35
I think a lot of the reason for that is because of the contenders that might take over
22:39
And many are coalescing around Andy Burnham, who right now is the mayor of Greater Manchester
22:44
He can't challenge the prime minister because he doesn't have a seat in Westminster. So some of the people talking about timeline are, to be honest, talking about that
22:51
because they want to get Andy Burnham back into parliament before any sort of challenge takes place
22:56
But the trouble for Sir Keir Starmer is that so many of them
22:59
say that it really was him on the doorstep. And, you know, I was speaking to a senior Yorkshire Labour source yesterday
23:05
who said to me, it's not really fair, but people really do hate him
23:10
And it's not completely clear. There are various different reasons for it. Some are the policy mistakes
23:15
But a lot of it is about him, and that makes it very difficult for him to continue
23:20
He is, of course, wedded to fighting on. He's got this big speech on Monday
23:26
which increasingly feels a sort of make it or break it. Not another reset, Aggie. Not another one
23:31
Well, they are saying it's not a reset. But he is insisting, and he's actually just done an interview in the last few minutes
23:37
he's insisting he's not going to walk away, and the right thing to do is rebuild
23:41
And indeed, this morning, he has given two jobs to Harriet Harman
23:46
and Gordon Brown, of course, former... How has that gone down, Aggie
23:51
It's a good question. I think people are a bit nonplussed by it
23:55
I was a bit nonplussed. I think, yeah. I mean, the messages I've had about it are basically slightly confused
24:03
Maybe it's a good idea, but he'll have to do more. That seems to be the general vibe
24:08
I mean, if that's the answer, then obviously it's not enough. Labour MPs are basically saying
24:13
But, Aggie, do you feel that it's all being laid at his door
24:17
I know that you're saying people hate him. I mean, I hate it's a very strong word, and I personally feel uncomfortable with this
24:22
because you can dislike someone, and he's made a lot of U-turns, and he's been pretty cack-handed
24:26
But I don't hate the Prime Minister. I think he's trying to do his best, but he's just not very good at politics
24:30
But there's a much more fundamental issue, is there not, Aggie, for the Labour Party, existentially, to work out what its purpose is
24:37
It's losing votes to reform on the one hand, and the Greens on the other
24:41
Does anybody have the answer, despite whoever the leader is? Well, I think that's part of the problem
24:46
So, you know, talking about him talking about in this op-ed overnight that he doesn't want the party to tack to the left or the right, saying that's not the answer
24:55
Well, you can see why, because as you say, they are losing votes to the left and to the right
25:00
So it's difficult to go in either direction there. But I think part of the reason, and you're right, hate is an extremely strong word
25:10
I was quoting someone there, but he is deeply unpopular. We see that through the polling
25:17
But I think part of the problem for him has been consistently, and the accusation has been, that people don't see what he stands for
25:26
And that can make people feel that he stands against the things that they stand for
25:32
which may be unfair in a lot of cases, but without a clear political direction
25:37
And they would say they put across a lot of political directions and it has been clear
25:43
but that is why I think it has been difficult and there are contenders, I would say waiting in the wings
25:52
they're not quite waiting in the wings are they? Well I thought if West Street wanted to go
25:56
he should have gone should I know it's difficult when you raise your head above the parapet
25:59
you might get it blown off if you're the first one but his best chance is to go now is it not
26:04
Because Angela Raine is out of the picture and so is Burnham for now if he waits too long that chance will go
26:09
Well he has said that he supports the Prime Minister He did an interview late last night
26:14
suggesting that he supported the Prime Minister. I'm not sure he answered the question whether or not the Prime Minister should lead Labour
26:19
into the next general election. But I think there's a fear among Labour MPs
26:25
who don't like Angela Rayner that if there was a contest now
26:28
that Angela Rayner would be chosen by the members. Now, Angela Rayner has a lot of supporters
26:33
That's a faction of Labour MPs who don't want Angela Rayner. There's also a faction of Labour MPs
26:38
who absolutely do not want Wes treating. But I think the problem is they haven't really coalesced, the majority haven't coalesced around a single candidate
26:47
They are starting to, or at least people I speak to are starting to say that there is
26:51
coalescing around Andy Burnham, but again, he is not in Parliament. Apparently, he's the first preference for 42% of members who are asked to rank their
27:01
preferred successor. This is amongst Labour Party members, but he's not in Parliament
27:06
What is a safe seat right now? Well, I think that's such a crucial question, because look at where reform did really well yesterday and Labour did really badly in the area that he would presumably want to take a seat or get a seat
27:18
And there's been reporting that maybe he's made some sort of agreement with the Labour MP
27:22
There's always reporting like this. But then he might get blocked by the National Executive Committee, as happened in February
27:27
So it's a complicated route for him to return to Westminster. I can't really complain about your monologue
27:33
I think you're spot on. But what surprises me about last night's vote
27:38
is that why reformer haven't got 2,000 seats. And then they underperformed, John
27:44
Well, the thing is, I think they've peaked. I think there were rumours about them peaking earlier in this year
27:51
and I think they've peaked. And the thing is, they're going to be scrutinised now on policy
27:56
and they're going to fall down on policy. I mean, it's a good point. I mean, it's much easier to be a protest party
28:03
than a party of governance, right? That's true. Yeah, well, we're going to find out
28:07
We found out in Kent already, the people of Kent, there are going to be some other people going to find out
28:11
That's fine. I mean... Yeah, yeah, we're going to find out. But that's what I'm saying
28:16
It's just that the fact that, unfortunately, if you look at Farage's political history
28:21
he's been a one-trick pony all along. And it's all immigration, immigration
28:26
and you can only go so far with it. Yeah. Now, with Labour, I don't think Starmer will be the death of Labour
28:34
I think he's going to go in a year as well as Bedanoff, to be honest
28:39
But Bedanoff's outperforming her party, John, to be fair, isn't she? I mean, she's actually pretty popular
28:45
but she's obviously, again, trying to deal with a party that's really, really tainted
28:50
which people are not prepared to forgive yet I mean, she's had some successes
28:53
in certain areas in the outer boroughs in places like Bexley, Westminster, they took back
28:59
Wandsworth, I mean, well, Wandsworth was always a flagship council, but she's had some success and she's doing reasonably well herself
29:05
Yeah, I don't... Again, I'm not going to argue with you here, but just the thing is that nothing seems to be improving for either party
29:13
Now, what I honestly believe is that, sure, a caller previously said they've got to use common sense
29:23
Look, they've got to re-nationalise all the utilities. That's the first thing
29:28
And let me tell you why, one of the reasons why. My background is retail, okay
29:34
And, you know, I could go around the West End now and look at empty shops
29:38
I won't touch any of them because for the first time ever, I've got to think of the electricity bill now
29:45
And it's impossible to make a decent margin now primarily because of the electricity bills coming through
29:53
But, John, I understand the point. But if you're talking about renationalizing utilities
29:57
I can understand why that's seductive. have trillions in public debt, right? We've still got a 400 billion overhang from COVID
30:04
I mean, we're going to have to pay out the private owners of the utilities if you want
30:09
to nationalise them. Otherwise, no one will ever invest in this country again. We don't
30:13
have the cash to do that. Andy, again, you're not wrong. But the point is, the point is, how are we going to get out
30:21
of this problem if we don't start thinking like this? I understand, John. But you know, there are certain things, you know, you know, the old
30:27
medical adage, right, that every doctor signs up the Hippocratic Oath, do no harm
30:31
right? Why doesn't Starmer and Reeves take the Hippocratic Oath, do no harm? For
30:37
example, don't bring in day one workers rights, which is ridiculous if you're an
30:41
employer, and will put you off employing people. Don't bring in a minimum wage when
30:45
we're already suffering out there with people trying to get jobs. Don't make it harder for
30:49
people to employ people. This is basic economics business 101 stuff. It's not hard
30:55
And I think there is going to be some kind of a reset based on what you just said
30:59
Okay? Well, I mean... But I've got to... One thing before I go, I've got to disagree with you about the female thing that you mentioned earlier on
31:08
Okay? When Tommy Robertson has his march later on this month, mark my words
31:14
every other word will be kids and women and the violence that they face through immigration
31:22
Yeah, but I understand it. Fair enough, people would use that for their own ends
31:27
But there are a lot of people in the country who will be concerned about that issue. So to ignore that is not sensible either
31:33
I just feel that appointing Harriet Harman, however respected she is, and she is a respected figure
31:39
will not move the dial on the fundamentals and the reasons why people are voting
31:43
No, no, that's coming, Ali. I think what you just mentioned and I think it coming I just want to say something to you I was listening to you probably about half an hour ago because we been on hold for quite some time
31:56
I'm sure you're very busy. But somebody was talking to you about people on benefits
32:02
and then you said about the Labour Party being the party of layabouts. Yeah
32:08
Please don't call me a layabout ally. Don't ever call me a layabout
32:15
Do you understand? No, not yet, Diane, because you haven't told me
32:18
why I shouldn't call you a layabout. Because I have a health condition, are I
32:24
OK, that's all right. I'm not saying that... No, it's not all right. It's far from all right
32:29
People came in benefits or came in benefits because they're sick and they're disabled
32:34
Not all of them are. And it's not OK to call those people layabouts, am I
32:38
Diane, Diane, Diane, that's OK. I understand you're emotional and I understand. I would be in your position too
32:43
However, I'll give you some hard facts, shall I? Give me all the facts you want
32:48
I know what you're going to say. No, no, no, Diane, hold on. Hold on. It's a respectful conversation
32:54
You've had your say. Let me have mine. It isn't when you're calling people
32:58
Leia, by the way. Well, a lot of them are, Diane. A lot of them are. A lot of them are
33:02
No, hold on, Diane. Hold on. You might not be. A lot of people who go out there
33:06
and graft in the morning and get up at six o'clock like my builder who goes around
33:11
and tries and earns a living with his family, right, and he's facing everything getting more expensive
33:18
more expensive to buy stuff, more expensive to buy paint, more expensive to pay his workers
33:22
All of those people who get up and they graph day in, day out
33:26
and they see so many people now, from 2.7 million on universal credit
33:31
now 4.2 million people in January 26, which is actually leading to a total of 333 billion being spent on benefits in this country They think to themselves we been taken for fools here we been taken for mugs here
33:46
So I'm sorry, yes, Labour is the party of layabouts. It doesn't give you the right to call me a layabout
33:53
It gives me the right to say whatever I want in relation to what I believe the Labour Party is
33:58
It doesn't give you the right to call me a layabout. Diane, don't take it so personally. I am fed up to the teeth of this on LPC
34:05
Okay, just relax. I'm fed up with it. Okay, just relax and don't take it so personally, and actually park the fact, I understand you're
34:11
emotional about it, and it wasn't meant to be a personal dig at you, if you are genuinely disabled
34:16
If I am genuinely sick, is that the next statement that you're going to come out with that line
34:21
Yes, it is. Yes, it is, Diane, because I'm going to say, now hold on. Would you like to see my medical records
34:26
No, I don't want to see your medical records. I trust you and I believe you. All I'm saying is this, right
34:30
All I'm saying is this. Do I believe that every one of those benefit claimants is genuine
34:35
No, I don't. Sorry, I do not believe that we have suddenly had a miraculous increase
34:41
in that many people who qualify for benefits. And frankly, this government tried to get through welfare reform
34:46
through its own parliament with a massive majority and was scuppered because the Labour Party want to help people
34:53
and favour people who would rather not work than would work. And the incentives are all wrong in this country
34:58
Now, you might not like that, Diane, and I'm sorry if you're offended, and I apologise for offending you
35:03
I did not mean to offend you. However, I'm not in any way going to resolve from the fact that I think that this country is being led by a government
35:10
that actually favours people on welfare rather than people who go out to work
35:14
and that includes the removal of the two-child benefit cap. And I'll tell you why, Diane, because I speak to my friends who go out and work
35:20
and they work their backsides off and they think about whether they can afford one child let alone two And now they see people on benefits who are now not going to have to factor that in at all Sorry that my view Diane You have the right to call me names are you I not calling you names
35:35
You most certainly are. That's OK, Diane. We'll agree to disagree on that one
35:39
I understand that you are emotional about it and that's absolutely fine. You're right to be
35:44
But I believe exactly what I'm saying and I think that a lot of people in this country
35:48
will probably agree with me. I have to say I do agree with you. I do feel for people who are suffering
35:54
The thing I would say to them is, one day, not very far away from now, you'll go to your bank, you'll expect to see your benefit paid in there, and it won't be there
36:08
Just like pensioners won't get it, just like public sector employees won't get it
36:13
Because the elite of this country, and that's not just the Labour Party, it's the Conservatives as well, have run this country into the ground
36:21
They've chased off almost 16,000 millionaires and billionaires from this country, more than China has done
36:30
And that is suicide. And it doesn't matter if everybody in the crew is shooting holes in the hull of the boat
36:39
It doesn't matter who the captain is. I think that's absolutely right
36:43
Simon, what do you think this means for Starmer and the Labour Party in general
36:47
Do you think it's him or it's the party in general more deeper, deeper problem they've got
36:52
I can't think of anyone they can replace Starmer with who will be better than Starmer, at least Starmer U-turns
36:58
I think that I don't think reform will solve it because I don't think reform will be radical enough
37:04
You do. You can't you can't bring international ownership, the utilities. But this government, a British government needs to start building assets like nuclear power and a defence sector to actually make this country have some value
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