Farage's mysterious donors | James O’Brien - The Whole Show

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This is LBC from Global, leading Britain's conversation with James O'Brien
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It's three minutes after ten, a very good morning indeed to you
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Probably only one story in town today. I don't think that there will be any surprises about that
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or at least variations upon one story in town, which is the local and, of course, in Wales and Scotland, national election results
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the latter of which we won't find out until much later today. And there's a slim chance we won't find out anything more about the local election results in the course of today's programme
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But we have more than enough to be getting on with. I mean, it is an extremely good day for reform for Nigel Farage's outfit, just as 10 years ago
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He had an extremely good day with the Brexit result and, indeed, was popping champagne corks
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five years later, three years later, when Boris Johnson became Prime Minister
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So it's like Act Three, in many ways, of a play that has now been performed for almost exactly a decade
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I don't know what Act Four and Act Five will look like, but Act Three looks exactly like Act Two and Act One
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Andrew Marr's ysis is pretty close to unchallengeable. If things continue on this path
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then Nigel Farage will be measuring up the curtains at 10 Downing Street, or, of course, calling upon mysterious donors
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to buy the curtains for him, as Boris Johnson has done previously
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And I don't think any of that is challengeable, is it? I mean, it is the same experience, the same curious division in our population
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and the same curious... I'm a weirdo because I have this simultaneous fascination
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with the facts and the detail. I love digging into it and I love talking about it
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even as I can see the writing on the wall for what it means
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So it's almost as if my professional personality and my personal personality is split
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You take away my children's freedom of movement, but I still love talking about Brexit
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I recognise that he is morally depraved, but I still love talking about Boris Johnson
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Ditto Donald Trump. And if you can't see Nigel Farage's myriad flaws by now
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then you are never going to. And I can't help finding that fascinating. But it's like being on a coach
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that is careering at 100 miles an hour towards a cliff edge and 52% of the people on the coach are singing
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we're all going on a summer holiday and 48% of the people on the coach are going
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we need to stop, we need to stop, we need to stop and 52% of the people break off for a moment from singing
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we're all going on a summer holiday to point at the 48% of people saying we've got to stop
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we really need to stop and go ha ha ha I love it I love look at you ha ha ha yeah losers
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and then we drive off a cliff and everyone sort of pretends that we haven't
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But I am still fascinated by how the coach works, or at least by what motivates the people sitting on the coach
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Is it déjà vu vu, or is it déjà déjà vu, Keith
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Do we know? I mean, what is it? Is there a German word to describe that
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The quote given to Albert Einstein is not true. It's one of those quotes that is actually too good to be true
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He never said that the definition of insanity was to bang your head, was to do the same thing over and over again in the expectation of a different result
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But in terms of votes, and this is not an indicator of where the next general election will go, a completely infallible indicator, but it is, I mean, it is the best indicator that we've got
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it's Act 3 you know we saw it with Brexit we saw it with Johnson
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and now we're seeing it with Farage all if you like iterations
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of precisely the same political phenomenon which I continue to be fascinated
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and baffled and dismayed by and you've got the American little bit
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that is of course is Donald Trump I think it's probably time
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given that this is now Act 3 for us to park content for the con man
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compassion for the con I think that the days of thinking once people know what they are really like
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or what it really means or how it will play out once people really understand that
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then they'll see the light and change their ways you can see in the United States of America
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that is not true and you can see I think in what we've seen so far
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about these results that the bloke who brought you Brexit and greased Boris Johnson's passage into Downing Street
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is somehow not going to be held responsible for any of the consequences
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and some of the American playbook is kicking in as well If you're a Labour politician, some members of my profession will insist on 13 separate occasions that you answer the question if they've asked you how much, for example, a tin of biscuits costs
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Answer the question. Answer the question if you're Nigel Farage and you're asked about a £5 million donation from a Thai-based billionaire
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You can just shout fake news or illegally hacked and they'll all move on. Oh, that's terribly sorry to trouble you about that
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Let's move on to something else. I told you that was going to happen and it's happening
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So this claim that he's coming out with now, I was hacked or something like that, it's the equivalent of Trump shouting fake news
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Here are some facts. Here are some facts that paint you in an appalling light
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Would you please account for them, explain them or talk about them, to which you simply say no
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But you can't simply say no because then even your fans might have to start thinking that there's something a little bit suspect going on
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So you give them something else to shout at. So you say, oh, it's for my security
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when, you know, yeah. Or you say, fake news, fake news, the fake news media is inventing stuff
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Or you say, I've been illegally hacked or they got the information illegally
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It's the information that we're interested in, not the fact that it was
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not the means by which it was secured. But of course, none of that matters
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And people who will ask a Labour politician 13 times to answer the question about how much a tin of biscuit costs
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are for reasons I'm not sure I'll ever understand. and happy to let him glide seamlessly from obfuscation to denial and back to obfuscation
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What is the question you would like most to be answered today? Text me or WhatsApp me
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Eleanor and I sit down every morning and come up with suggestions, come up with ideas
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Yesterday's show, I think by most measures, was one of the most enjoyable radio programmes I have ever presented
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I mean, I've also been in a pretty good mood anyway, and oddly I am again today
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which is sometimes an influencing factor, but of course, for a true professional, it shouldn't be
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I should get in here at 10 o'clock in the morning, close the door and leave the world behind me
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in the context of what I want to bring to you every day. I don't know that today is going to be
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one of the most enjoyable programmes that we've ever had. I mean, ever had, if you didn't listen yesterday
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I really would urge you to check it out on Global Player. but today is a very different kettle of fish
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not least because I can't settle immediately on the question that I am most interested in your answers to
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I don't think it's time yet to go full Brexit and sort of say what exactly is it that you're celebrating
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or what exactly is it that you think you won or how exactly is it that you think your life is going to improve by giving your support and your vote to these characters honest Bob Jenrick particularly
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on message today deriding the two-party system that he was an extremely senior part of until
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about 10 minutes ago that line from night not from 1984 we've done all the 1984 stuff until
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until we've gone blue in the face. We're arriving now at breakneck speed
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right into the middle of Animal Farm, where, of course, the line with which that novel ends
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is absolutely bang on for where the Conservative Party and Reform are today
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The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again
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But already it was impossible to say which was which. Here's Honest Bob Jenrick, here's Sue Ella Braverman
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And James Cleverley was on with Nick Ferrari earlier. And I'm afraid to tell you, my first thought was
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is he defected or not? I know he's keeping a very, or a low-ish profile
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since he lost the leadership contest to Kami Badenoch in comical circumstances
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But that's mad, right? Even somebody who is, apart from that brief period
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of infatuation with Boris Johnson, Cleverley's always come across as a, don't shoot me down for this
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he's always come across as a fairly nice chap. But even he now pops up
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and you think, which one is he? Is he reform or is he Tory? Is he Tory or is he reform
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And then the only thing you can say to yourself, well, he's not one of the worst Tories, so he probably hasn't defected
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And then the little voice in the back of your head just whispers, yet
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So there is no glossing over this. If you are fully cognizant of the disasters
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that Brexit and Boris Johnson visited on this country, a plurality of your fellow citizens
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are determined to do it again. they are persuaded that it just needs somebody else to be in charge to implement the same
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vague platform of populism and bigotry uh nick had a caller towards the end of the show which
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was lovely it was almost it was almost nostalgic i think he was in dulwich talking about how out of
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touch the elites are um well bigging up nigel farage the the former city broker who just accepted
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a secret five million pound gift from a tithe-based billiard because nothing says anti-establishment
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like hoovering up disgraced Tories, taking money from foreign-based billionaires and refusing to answer questions
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about the most basic requirements of transparency and integrity. That's anti-establishment for you
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That's sticking it to the elites, down with the educated, up with I don't know what
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I don't know what. So, what is the question you would most like me to ask today
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What is the question that you think is most interesting? I have a few. I don't think it's a day for asking you how you voted and why, not least because turnout, although a little higher than average, is still nowhere near what a general election would be
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and the syphology of the situation, great word, that begins with P
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the syphology of the situation is such that it's pretty hard to make any meaningful observations beyond
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I mean, a resoundingly good night for reform, a good day for reform, a very bad day for Labour and the Conservatives
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Greens, I'm feeling a little bit ambivalent about at the moment. I thought they were probably going to do better
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but even that is too early to call. and the abiding mystery of British politics
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why don't the Liberal Democrats get more attention, is still front and centre in my mind
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Unless Ed Davey dresses up as a chicken or jumps out of an aeroplane, the poor man can't get arrested by the British media
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who will spend hours, weeks, months salivating and reporting over every utterance
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of a party leader who, despite yesterday's glorious result for him, still has a tiny number of MPs
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10.15 is the time. I think I want to talk first about Labour and then about the Tories
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And I think the question that we have to ask about Labour
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well, there are two, and I'll have a look at your suggestions in the next break
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How did they get it so wrong? How did they think, and I think of Tamara in Telford quite often
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I don't know if you remember her first call to the programme when I was trying to work out whether there were people
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whose politics was animated by immigration but who were not particularly prejudiced or bigoted
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I am genuinely concerned about how the system is working and how the numbers are being processed
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I recognise the realities of global issues, but how can we do a better job
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I'm still a little bit suspicious of that position, although Tamara clearly held it
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I'm a little bit suspicious of the idea that there are hundreds of thousands of millions of people in that category
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because the facts now regarding immigration are pretty clear. It's plummeting, and year on year, even the small boats are down by a factor
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although you wouldn't know that from the front page of The Sun on Monday, which was, of course, I can say now that the votes are in
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the front page of The Sun on Monday, it was a dog whistle urging you to vote for Nigel Farage
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just as they urged you to vote for Boris Johnson, just as they urged you to vote for Brexit
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and just as they, until very recently, were telling you that Donald Trump was the best thing since sliced pastrami
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So, Labour did this thing, right? Labour did this thing where they decided that they needed to appeal to people who were tempted by reform
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This is lesson number one of what we know so far. Labour decided that they needed to appeal to people who were tempted by reform
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Now, facts. There are people who were traditionally Labour voters who were being tempted by reform
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Just as we saw during Boris Johnson's election and during Brexit that people who were traditional Labour voters
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could be persuaded in the classic tradition of British politics to vote against their own interests
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and to vote instead in defence of the interests of wealth. If the newspaper owners want it
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the newspaper owners will usually get it. If the Thailand-based cryptocurrency billionaires want it
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the Thailand-based cryptocurrency billionaires will usually get it. If the owner of JCB wants it, the owner of JCB will usually get it
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And they keep getting it until the results of them getting it become so bad
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that they can't actually keep up the facade that this is good for anybody except them
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At which point, Labour get in. and in the case of Keir Starmer
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make something of a dog's dinner of everything almost from the get-go
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whether or not the mountain was impossible to scale or whether or not he should have
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taken a different route up it is moot on a day like today he is having a
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disastrous day you can say that as a matter of fact so what they did was decide
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have we got any adverts book because I can feel this one taking me until at least half past no Alright Shall I take a break now and then come back and continue with my monologue And then maybe take some calls at around I don know quarter to twelve
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James O'Brien on LBC. It is twenty minutes after ten. Now, where was I
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Listen, the phone lines are open, and it's one of those days where I want you to look upon the programme
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like the sort of, it's a dreadful Americanism, but it works, like the water cooler or the coffee machine at work
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So I will sit here or stand here filling. And you've seen the size of my mug, right
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So I stand by the coffee machine for approximately 10 times longer than anybody else ever does
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which is where my monologue fits into this rather charming ogy. But at some point, my mug will be full and I'll put it down and you can join in
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So the phone lines are open and I am asking questions, but I just want to get the facts in front of you first
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So facts so far, Labour and the Tories are having a nightmare. Reform is having an absolute, not quite as good as I think they probably were hoping in their wildest dreams
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but still pretty flipping good by any measure, and nobody's talking about Ed Davey
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Some of those things are constant, some of those things are new. What interests me is what Labour have done to get to this point
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And what they have done is try to appeal to the historic Labour voter
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already wobbly because we saw in 2016 and 2019 that they were not immune to voting against their
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own interests the historic Labour voter who was being tempted towards reform and the calculation
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was I think correctly although this is something else that's changing at the moment the calculation
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was that they wanted the government to be much tougher on immigration
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Here is a question I've never asked you before. What's the difference between immigration and immigrants
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What's the difference between being tough on immigration and being tough on immigrants
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Because I think it's really hard to answer that question and Labour have failed because
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they have responded to a belief that they need to appeal to this constituency of voters
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by being tougher on immigration. And they have been. They've also allowed it, in some of their rhetoric and some of their policies, to elide into
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being horrible to immigrants, either potential or actual. And the calculation was that by becoming a party that presented itself as being anti-immigration
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okay and they might dispute that and claim that we're in favour of this type
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but not that type but the general perception and the general intention was that they would portray themselves
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as being anti-immigration and that that would persuade traditional, historic or potential voters
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swallowing the snake oil that Farage has been serving up for his entire life
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that would persuade them back into the fold it was a policy if you like of appeasement
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and the reason why I asked you a year ago who it was aimed at
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was because I wasn't sure how that was going to work who are these people that are not engaging in
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tribal or xenophobic or atavistic prejudice who are not being encouraged to hate everybody brown
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but have a very specific idea of exactly which beneficiaries of our immigration policy
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they have a problem with and which ones they're supremely comfortable with but Keir Starmer has decided
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and when he appointed Shabana Mahmood as Home Secretary, he doubled down on this
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that the best thing to do was to become an anti-immigration party
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And on one level it has worked, that the numbers are falling at a rate of knots
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that I don't think we've ever seen before, from a high start. But how many times did you hear Farage mention immigration today
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Have you noticed that yet? How many times did you hear Farage mention immigration today
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What's going on there, do you think? Well, I've told you previously
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is that he is going to have to acknowledge at some point that that particular dead horse
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has been flogged beyond any useful purpose. So if you are currently on welfare
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particularly a sickness or a disability benefit, be afraid. Be very afraid
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If you're between jobs, be afraid. Be very afraid. You are the new immigrant. You are the new small boat passenger
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Just, just, this isn't opinion. and this isn't counting, but just mark my words, just watch
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If you haven't already felt the heat of that hatred, you're about to. People with blue badges being abused in supermarket car parks
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disabled people having people bang on their door to say, I've seen you walking
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It's coming, okay? It always follows. You unleash hatred. You kind of have to find a new target when the old one disappears
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So Labour became an anti-immigration party. And they delivered huge drops in immigration
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But the man, the politician who is defined by his hatred of immigrants
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is having an absolute cakewalk. He's having an... What's the opposite of a nightmare
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He's having a dream. The man who is defined by his hatred of immigration
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is being carried shoulder high through the streets of Havering. So it's failed completely
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Labour have delivered what anti-immigration voters want and they continue to deliver it
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and anti-immigration voters have not responded at all. And then the second bit of this
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which is harder to count at the moment, but the opinion polls certainly give us an indication and an insight
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the Greens are hoovering up the kind of people who are also traditional Labour voters
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albeit possibly from a different socioeconomic class or educational background. the Greens are hoovering up voters who are repulsed by Labour becoming an anti-immigrant
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not anti-immigration but an anti-immigrant party so Nigel Farage is nothing if not xenophobic
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racist whatever word you prefer the days of pretending that people will be repelled by him
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when they fully understand that are over people are not repelled by it they are lapping it up
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it's a tragedy but it's a tragedy that has been incubated and delivered by by the media in this
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country in large part and by the ancient appeal of hatreds of every kind because remember he's
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certainly not off the hook for anti-semitism albeit that he's currently pretending to be a
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champion of the jewish people his islamophobia is visible from space his um parties full of people
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that don't even like seeing black faces on television and the racism is endemic it's
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absolutely crystal clear, and it's popular. I hope that doesn't come as a heartbreaking shock to you
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I speak with white privilege, but it's popular. The racism is popular. The respectable face of racism is the pretense that I have legitimate concerns about immigration
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and Keir Starmer decided to hoover up those votes. He's completely failed
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He hasn't hoovered up one of them. And yet, anti-immigrant rhetoric has risen, just as immigration figures have plummeted
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And all of the people in the middle all of the people who are traditional Labour voters and repulsed by racism they now increasingly disillusioned with or even repulsed by Keir Starmer Labour government So they the ones that are moving to the Greens So Labour have bet the House on holding on to their core vote from if you like the educated voter
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And this isn't snobbery or condescension, this is sophology, this is measured
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You know, you look at the areas where education is high and you look at support for Brexit or support for immigration
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and you look at the areas where education is low and you look at those things
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and you get very different messages. So Labour have bet the House on retaining their core support
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among the educated professional while gaining the support or retaining the support
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of the less educated worker by becoming anti-immigration and anti-immigrant and they have delivered that
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and somehow achieved neither of the goals that they set themselves. They have not hung on to the core voter, although they're doing a little bit better in cities than some of the worst predictions expected
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They have not successfully held on to the core voter who is repulsed by racism
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and they have not managed to seduce any of the voters who may or may not be racist
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but are certainly animated by all of the pictures they see and the posts that they read and the politicians that they listen to
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insisting that all of their problems have been caused by Johnny Foreigner come lately
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why why has this labour calculation failed so completely 03456060973 that that's what i want
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you to tell me why has it i mean you can challenge the ysis if you want but you better have got
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up early because i can't currently see any flaws in it at all they thought they'd hold on to this
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voter and they thought they'd be able to hoover up this voter by appeasing the anti-immigrant or
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the racist rhetoric that has dominated our discourse now for the best part of 10 years
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And it has failed miserably, despite measurably and visibly ramping up the rhetoric and reducing the numbers
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I said to you a year ago, I think they could bring it down to zero and it wouldn't move the needle
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It wouldn't change anything. I don't think I had foreseen a year ago Farage pivoting towards attacking the disabled or attacking the sick
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or attacking the people who are between jobs and pretending that everybody on any benefit
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is some sort of con artist. But it was bound to happen. There'd be single mothers next
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if we hadn't changed so much as a society. So why? What is it that has..
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What explains Labour's utter failure to achieve either of the things that they wanted to achieve
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Why do the people most animated by immigration not respond positively to the huge drops in immigration
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And why have the people, if you like, more clear-eyed about immigration
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started departing the party in their droves? Why has this particular tactic failed so miserably
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It's half past ten. James O'Brien on LBC. 10.34 is the time
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And, of course, the other thing that we may examine a little later in the programme is why none of it matters
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We can have a conversation about Nigel Farage now that is identical to the conversation about Donald Trump
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The race riots don't matter. The pogroms don't matter. The secret donations from billionaires don't matter
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None of it matters. Again, I'm caught in that bizarre scylla and charybdis of being horrified and disgusted by it, but also fascinated
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What would I be like if I did something else for a living? I honestly don't know
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I dread to think. Let's go to Birmingham. Mo is there to kick things off. It's time we heard a different voice, Moe
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although I'll probably interrupt you after seven seconds. What would you like to say? Hello, James. Thanks for taking my call
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Thank you for not adding eventually. Yeah. No, no, no, not at all
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Go on. I think a big issue with the Labour Party is
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and I think it's motivated me specifically, and I'm not an emotional person
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I deal in cold facts when it comes to my work life, academically, whatever else, and so on
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Maybe too cold inefficiently sometimes. But there is something very emotionally visceral that is evoked in me when it comes to Keir Starmer
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Really? It's his delivery. It's the fact that he comes across as inauthentic
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It's the fact that even after two and a half years, well, almost two years as PM
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and X number of years as party leader, he struggles to really elaborate the destination
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of where he wants this country to go to. Okay. Even if it's as inauthentic as those sunny uplands
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that Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage keep on bang about, he doesn't even attempt to do that
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Do you think they're authentic people? Yes. Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage are authentic
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No, no, no. No, they are not authentic. They are inauthentic, okay
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Because what they promise is not achievable. And I think the more and more evidence that comes out
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and Boris Johnson has found out about it, okay, you know, the people will come to the right conclusion here
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But we cannot conclude that with Keir Starmer and this iteration of the Labour Party
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And in my opinion, that's as bad as the inauthenticity of Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson
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I haven't heard this position before. I mean, I can understand ambivalence
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but I am enduringly fascinated by the vituperation that Starmer attracts, like the very, very personal hatred
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And I presume a lot of it was coming from, well, of course a lot of it is coming from sort of far-right liars
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and agitators on social media, but for you that's not the case at all
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You could easily vote Labour in a different... I suppose... I sense you didn't vote Labour yesterday
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No, I didn't. and this is the thing, this is how bad it's become for me. I voted for the candidate that I knew would most great Labour
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and Keir Starmer here in Birmingham. From the left then, not from the right
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From the left. And that's not because I agree with the policies of that candidate
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It is not because... That you're sending a message. But I want to send a message, a very clear message
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that this lack of direction... You know, here's an example. He's now talking about the EU and needing to get in closer with the EU
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with a closer relationship and so on and so forth. Okay. Yes
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Why are we hearing about it now? Well, I mean, when the facts change, I change my mind
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You'd rather he'd campaigned on that at the time. And I'm not here to defend him, especially not on a day like today
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I still, I think, although I may not renew my subscriptions, I still think he's the least bad option of all the other options that are available to us
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Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. I've been quiet for ages. I only did a half an hour monologue
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I've got words bubbling up out of me. But I don't, I mean, let's take your best example, which is the EU
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I can see the calculation here. I can see the pragmatism of thinking, wait until it gets so obvious and so bad
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that it becomes electorally positive to talk about real life. winning with the European Union, but don't do it when it would still be an electoral negative
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That's just waiting for the pennies to drop, isn't it, up and down the country
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And some of them are never going to drop, which explains why reform are currently having such a wonderful day
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But for a huge number of people, paying attention, sensible, whatever word you prefer
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the pennies have now dropped much harder than they had two years ago. I see that, but I've seen many an electoral cycle in my time
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from John Major in the early 90s onwards. Was he authentic? I, yes, I do find him authentic
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Did you think so at the time? Yes. Because I think they're similar
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I think Starmer's like Major. I think Starmer is completely authentic and rubbish at faking it
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I think the difference between John Major and Keir Starmer, I think this is very important
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in an era of multi-party politics where you need to really hold on
30:54
to your core vote. Keir Starmer has done nothing to make his Labour supporters feel special
31:02
That's 100% true. Feel like they're chosen people. Or even that they're being listened to
31:06
Even that they're being listened to. The PLP complain about it as well
31:10
Yeah, I know they do. I know. And that is bad leadership. I don't think it's inauthenticity, but it's certainly poor leadership
31:16
Just a quick word, if you would, if you want, on the statistics, if you like
31:21
The plunging immigration figures delivering precisely what they thought was needed to bring a certain type of voter into the fold
31:31
And the results from yesterday would suggest that that has failed completely while also, of course, repulsing voters, I suspect, like you, but also to a degree like me
31:43
Why has that failed so miserably? Why have the numbers not nudged the needle? Because, OK, I'm going to talk about it from the left point of view here
31:50
because he's hemorrhaged. We talk about the votes that he's hemorrhaging to reform
31:54
He's hemorrhaging a lot more votes to the left and to people who are..
31:58
But we don't know that for sure. He's losing seats to reform and votes to the Greens
32:02
and some of the areas that they've held, they've held by whiskers and margins with the Greens in a very close second
32:07
But I understand why they are repulsed by this. Why are the people that they were appealing to utterly unmoved by..
32:15
I mean, I'd probably have people in the inbox soon or people on the line soon
32:19
insisting that they don't believe the figures, but that can't account for everyone
32:23
who's still voting for Farah. To those on the right, it is because the right doesn't think
32:27
it's an authentic thing. They haven't done what Farage does very well
32:32
They haven't done these policies with relish and with that grin on that face
32:37
that says, oh, I'm really enjoying this. That's what the right... They haven't given permission to hate
32:42
Yes. They've just done calculations, and so they've brought in some arguably horrible policies
32:49
but without saying it's okay to be racist. Correct. And I think, again, they haven't elaborated why they're doing it
32:58
No, because everyone shuts up, everyone stays silent about the obvious and imminent economic impacts of it all
33:04
which is why Varage has to pivot away from being anti-immigration towards being anti-everything else, effectively
33:11
but most obviously the sick and the disabled. Thank you, Mo. A great start
33:15
Stephen's in Chester. Stephen, what would you like to say? Hello, James. Just a few points, please
33:20
But let me come here with a little bit of context. Go on. I remember politics from John Major era and Thatcher before that
33:29
And Starmer's not the first politician ever to have basically not kept to his promises
33:36
I remember the Conservatives promising not to double VAT, and they near enough did. Yes
33:41
I also come at it from another angle that the Tories laid a trap for Labour
33:47
in actually reducing national insurance, which the country could not afford, OK
33:53
And in making it impossible to come here via any safe and legal routes as a refugee
33:57
and then having a fit of the vapours once they were out of power
34:01
about all the people who came here via unsafe and illegal routes as a consequence
34:06
So there are traps galore, but none of that answers the questions I'm asking today. So here's the question, here's the answer, in my opinion, right
34:13
Yes. Starmer made tons of promises when he wanted to be leader
34:18
He made tons of promises at an election, and it's the amount of promises he broke
34:23
And I'll give you a small list. Go on, then. Attacking pensioners straight as soon as he came in, okay
34:30
Not getting rid of student debt, which he promised to do. In fact, including..
34:34
Wasn't in the manifesto. He did say that he would get rid of student debt
34:38
We have to focus on the manifesto, don't we? Because you can say lots of things five years out from a general election
34:43
and there is an argument that the economic situation was considerably worse in 2024 than it was
34:50
I don't know how far back you're going to make these observations
34:54
but than it was, for example, in 2015. But, James, I don't have an encyclopedia knowledge of the manifesto
35:01
but I will tell you the things he said. He said that he would not put gas and electric prices up
35:06
They've gone up. He didn't say that. He doesn't do that. They've brought in price caps, or they've sustained price caps
35:14
but gas and electricity companies put their prices up, Steve. Yeah, but I heard him say that
35:20
I've actually heard him say that, that he was going to stop gas and electric prices
35:24
My water rates have gone up by £300 in three years. And you think that's Keir Starmer's fault
35:29
Well, just answer the question, mate. No pressure. But do you honestly think that's Keir Starmer's fault
35:36
What do you think? Nigel Farage is going to bring your water rates down? Well, look, we know that..
35:42
I am looking, and I'm looking so closely, I want you to answer the question that I'm asking
35:46
I mean, none of these things are on the Prime Minister. And in fact, the first thing you complained about, they undid and reversed
35:53
It didn't attack pensioners. Why do they create regulators? They create regulators to put them at distance from government so that they're not responsible..
36:02
It's a Tory legacy, mate. It's a Tory legacy, and you're blaming it on Keir Starmer
36:06
I'm not saying it isn't. Let me nudge you towards the question. The appeal to the concerned about immigration voter
36:13
has failed completely. Why? Despite delivering what they said they wanted, why has it failed so completely
36:19
Well, I think that's very simple. It's the media. The media wanted to get rid of Labour from day one
36:25
No, it's not. It's not. Forgive me. I feel like I'm all over you, Stephen
36:30
Thank you for the call. But it's definitely not the media. The average punter isn't even looking at the media anymore
36:35
Certainly not reading a news. or listening to me, that they might be unaware of the numbers
36:39
or they might, of course, be going down the Trumpian route of pretending that they're not true
36:43
or genuinely believing that they're not true. But from, you know, these are supposed to be clever people
36:48
A lot of us used phrases like, the grown-ups are back in the room. And what was the first or second or third thing they did
36:53
Right, let's go after those voters there. They're good people who have been persuaded
36:57
that immigration is a bad thing and they may have a point, so we're going to reduce the numbers to get them back
37:03
And it's failed completely. It's worse than failed because it sent other people
37:07
scurrying away in the other direction towards the Greens. That's the second biggest story of the day
37:13
that Labour is hemorrhaging to the right, but not as much as the Tories are, and to the left
37:18
Which makes me wonder whether the second question we should ask today is what exactly is the point of the Conservative Party now
37:24
given that Conservative 3 is riding high in today election results 10 is the time James O on LBC
37:36
10.49 is the time. We can do something about one of the observations that I made at the top of the show
37:44
the fact that whatever happens in British politics, Ed Davey and the Liberal Democrats get a fraction of the attention
37:50
that their support and their results suggest that they should get. at 72 MPs
37:57
And I don't know if anyone keeps track of the amount of coverage
38:00
or response that they get in the media. We try to do our bit, but we're probably part of the problem
38:05
rather than the solution. So Ed Davey will be joining us hopefully before 11 o'clock
38:10
looking at the questions of what has gone right and what has gone wrong
38:15
The one that interests me most is why Labour's pivot towards being anti-immigration
38:21
has failed so completely. and the bloke who stands for little or nothing else
38:26
is having a brilliant day while Labour are having one of the worst in their history
38:31
despite the statistical evidence that they have become an anti-immigration and therefore, arguably, an anti-immigrant party
38:40
Why has it failed so completely? And I wonder whether to knit together earlier calls
38:45
but not necessarily to echo points that were made explicitly starmer's authenticity is what may be the problem for these voters they don't believe that he hates
38:57
foreigners even as he introduces very strict anti-immigration policies and brings down the
39:04
numbers they don't believe that he hates the foreigners so it doesn't matter even if immigration
39:08
came down to zero he wouldn't win a single vote from farage because he is incapable of um
39:15
making people feel good about their own hatreds. I don't know. It's just a theory
39:20
But it's a theory that's gathered pace and plausibility over the course of the last 10 years
39:25
Guinevere is in Forest Hill. Guinevere, what would you like to say? Hi. Nice to chat with you again
39:31
It's been a few years. So I'm originally American. Thank God you're back, Guinevere
39:35
Thank you. Carry on. Thank you. I'm originally American. I've been here for about 15 years
39:40
And I know something about politics here, but I know more about America
39:45
But I'm interested in the comparison because Biden tried to move to the right and tried to handle immigration
39:52
He didn't get his big bill through, but he did push for it. The Democrats moved to the right
39:57
And I've seen this in other countries around the world. When a progressive party moves to the right in order to stem the tide that's moving towards a hard right party, they tend to fail
40:08
And I think you're kind of onto it when you're talking about authenticity. But I think it's also this idea of a wishy-washy party that doesn't really know what it stands for
40:17
And so it loses people to more actually progressive parties like the Greens
40:22
And also sometimes to the hard right parties like Reform or Trump
40:27
even by people who wouldn't normally go in that direction. But they're just looking for a party that believes in something
40:34
Well, it's the curse of power. It's moved along by this wave of emotion. It's the curse of power as well
40:38
because if you're in opposition, you can simply stand up and say, I am going to make things better
40:43
I am going to make things better. You don't even need to specify what you're going to do. You can say something as utterly boneheaded and meaningless
40:48
as make America great again. Don't worry about anybody asking you what on earth that means
40:54
I heard Faris today claiming that he walks around the country and people shout, save me, Nigel, or save us, Nigel, at him
41:00
Save us. And that's the very definition of populism. You can't do that in power
41:05
So whether you want to use the word progressive or whether you want to use the word far right or whether you want to use the word populist
41:10
they can all do in opposition the things that Keir Starmer can't do in power
41:14
That's not his fault. That's true, but you can also have a party in power
41:19
and a party in opposition or in the run-up to the election
41:23
that stands for something more, that embraces their own ideas. So by actually taking on immigration
41:30
the Labour Party was saying, actually, we don't really believe what we told you we believe. We're actually going to move to the right
41:35
And so the people that they're wooing, I'm cutting you off only because Ed Davey is on the line, Guinevere, but the people that they're wooing don't like it and the people that they're wooing don't believe it and the people that they have already got the support of don't like it
41:50
I mean various statistics and results coming in for the Liberal Democrats
41:55
but they have had a good night, another good night under Sir Ed Davey who joins me now, the leader of the Liberal Democrats
42:02
does it frustrate you that so little attention is paid to you
42:06
I mean unless you're dressing up as a chicken head or jumping out of an aeroplane it remains very difficult for you to secure the attention
42:13
that the statistics make clear you obviously deserve and the same is true of some of last night's results
42:19
Well, James, thank you for worrying about that, but I don't. I'm just focused on winning
42:26
And at the last general election, we won our best number of MPs for 100 years
42:31
And last night, with the results coming through, we've done incredibly well
42:35
We're on track for a historic set of results in the sense of our eighth year in a row
42:42
eight years in a row of gains in local elections. I'm actually here in Portsmouth
42:46
I don't know if you've been told, James. Portsmouth was a battle between
42:51
Liberal Democrats and reform. Nigel Farage came here several times peddling his populist extreme
42:57
policies and he failed. It was Liberal Democrats who beat him and we now run this great
43:01
city elsewhere in the north of England in Greater Manchester, Stockport reform were pushing us hard there
43:07
and we repelled them and have now taken control of Stockport. So I'm really
43:11
proud that it's been the Liberal Democrats holding off reform, beating them and
43:15
being the non-populist party if you like showing that there is a message of change that people will respond to
43:21
Where are you taking your votes from? Do you know? All over the place, actually
43:27
I mean, in areas where we are strong and where we've been campaigning, we're getting some fantastic results
43:32
I mean, in Richmond last night, we won all the councillors and we beat five green councillors in Richmond
43:39
In Sutton, we got a gain of 22, again, where reform had been pushing us and failed to break through
43:44
So it's a mixed picture, I'll be honest with you, James, in terms of where our votes are coming from
43:49
but we've been winning in the south of England and in the north. What results are you disappointed with
43:54
Well, we had thought we would make more gains than we did in Merton
43:58
but we still made gains. And we thought we'd make even more gains than we did in Hampshire
44:04
We made a really large number of gains in Hampshire, but we thought we could make even more
44:08
So it's more a question of not making, in one or two areas, the gains we want to, but across the country
44:13
the overall result is better than I expected. and I think that as we look forward about where we go from here
44:21
I think with the bad nights that Labour and Conservative have had, people will be looking around and saying
44:26
there's a party that's offering change, but change that actually is true to British values
44:31
that has a real plan behind it. So our plan of getting closer to Europe
44:35
much, much closer so we can improve our economy, grow our economy, cut the cost of living for people
44:41
our plan to rescue the NHS by investing in care, family carers, social care
44:45
Our plan to make sure our country is defended better with defence bonds
44:49
Now, I think these are the real type of change that can work with a proper plan
44:54
unlike the populist extremists who want to burn it all down and offer quite divisive destructive change We were just talking about the benefits of being in opposition when it comes to detail closer to Europe It very vague Oh it not No I can give you detail
45:10
How long you got James? First of all we've been saying for a long time a new EU UK customs union
45:16
to get rid of a lot of the red tape to really boost our trade. We've gone further than that
45:20
We want a youth mobility scheme, which Europe had on the table and Labour's really messed around with
45:26
And we've got a whole set of other ideas of building back the relationship. We have to rebuild trust, by the way
45:32
The idea that suddenly we can go back to what it was straight overnight is really not practical
45:37
If you talk to European politicians, they've been very cross with the UK because of the Conservatives and Nigel Farage
45:44
So the key thing is building back that trust so we can be back at the heart of Europe in due course
45:49
We've got a more fractured political situation than any that you've fought elections in before
45:55
Out of all the other parties, which one would you be most likely to do a deal with
46:00
or to be able to work with? Listen, James, you do your..
46:04
No, I want an answer to this one. Because, I mean, you must be thinking about it
46:08
One of your predecessors hopped into bed with David Cameron. I mean, the Greens are on the rise
46:14
I think you've made it pretty clear that you're not going to be doing any pacts or coalitions with reform
46:20
history has many Lib Lab Packs. So I would quite like a proper answer to this question
46:25
Well, let me tell you how I deal with this, James, because I've noticed many of my predecessors
46:31
doing my job as leader of the Liberal Democrats have wanted to focus on that
46:35
you know, what happens after the election as opposed to showing what you stand for
46:39
your values, your policies. And when they do that, by focusing on after the election
46:43
actually voters say, well, come on, tell us what you're about. and I'm going to focus on that
46:48
because that's why I did the last general election. We got our best result for 100 years. That's what we keep doing at these local elections
46:54
and we keep winning. Eighth year in a row, record winning streak
46:58
So excuse me, James, for not being tempted by you. I'm determined to show what Liberal Democrats are about
47:04
and I think there's no ceiling on our success. With our positive vision of change
47:08
a change that builds people up rather than burns them down in the way that reform and the Greens offer
47:13
I think people will increasingly like that a different approach. It was a question born of genuine curiosity, not the pursuit of a headline
47:21
That may not be true of the next question, though. Do you regret calling for the king's
47:25
state visit to be called off, given that it's all gone off extremely well, much better than many of
47:29
us expected or dared to hope? Not at all. I always knew the king would do a fantastic job
47:37
I'm a huge supporter of the monarchy and this king. And I think his humour, his intelligence
47:46
was not something that surprised me. It was exactly what I thought he would do
47:51
But here's the point. I still think Starmer was wrong to reward Donald Trump
47:57
who insulted our troops, our Royal Navy and our country who had done so much damage with the idiotic war in Iran
48:02
He didn't deserve any reward of our great king. Also, I think he made some embarrassing remarks
48:09
by suggesting that our king supported him in Iran. That was just not true
48:15
And thirdly, and probably most importantly, James, the key question is, is it going to improve our relationship with the US under Trump
48:25
Will it have any long-term benefit for us? It won't. He's already threatening even more tariffs
48:30
And if you remember the state visit when he came here, and we had the banker, which again I didn't go to
48:35
because I was so angry with his failure to deal with the conflict in Gaza
48:41
He was very happy to get the PR win when he came here to Windsor Castle
48:47
But the very next week he was insulting our country. So I'm afraid Keir Starmer's idea that these things can suddenly benefit our country
48:55
he's just wrong on that. He shouldn't cosy up to Trump. And I'm really proud it's been the Liberal Democrats
49:00
who've been calling out Donald Trump right from the get-go for the bully he is, for the dreadful economic policy he has
49:07
which hits people in our country and the way he undermines security and defence in our world
49:12
Donald Trump is not a reliable ally. We have to build alliances elsewhere in Europe, in the Commonwealth
49:18
because we can't, and regrettably, trust this White House. You're having a good day. You seem buoyant
49:25
The results would explain why. Farage is having a brilliant day. That is inarguable
49:30
Who's having a worse day? Kemi Badenoch or Keir Starmer? I think they're both having bad days
49:35
I mean, let's see what the final figures are to make that sort of judgment, James. But they're both losing a lot of seats
49:41
And we're winning a lot of seats off both of those parties. I think, really, there is a massive change in British politics
49:48
There's no doubt about that. People are thirsty for change. They blame Labour and the Conservatives for getting the country in the mess it's in
49:55
And all I would say, as the leader of the Liberal Democrats, if people want the change, if they're hungry for that change
50:01
don't be tempted by the divisive, destructive changes of the extreme populists who, you know, fuel people's desire for change
50:09
by offering something that cannot be delivered and will be against our country's interests
50:14
Look at other parties that are offering real change that is true to our country's values
50:19
And free coffee. And free coffee. I'm afraid we've run out, and I'd love to give you one down the line
50:25
So, Ed Davey, thank you very much indeed. live from Portsmouth, where, as you hear
50:29
they are, well, celebrating a number of results from up and down the country
50:34
In Richmond-upon-Thames, in fact, they've secured all 54 council seats, which prompted one texter to suggest that..
50:39
I should have asked Sir Ed Davey, it just came in a little bit late, about whether or not it's healthy to have a one-party state
50:45
in Richmond-upon-Thames. I mean, reputedly, the happiest area in the country, but I don't know that that's based exclusively
50:53
upon the constitution of the local council. It's 11.02. James O'Brien on LBC
51:01
It's six minutes after 11. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
51:06
Some extraordinary news just in. Do you remember Jonathan Gullis? Of course you do
51:12
How could anyone forget? Ham is back. Not quite like a renegade master
51:18
but almost certainly with the ill behaviour. He has been elected as a councillor
51:22
former Conservative deputy chairman. Right. What party? Remember when I said to you earlier
51:27
when Nick was introducing James Cleverley onto his programme earlier, and I just had a little moment where I thought
51:32
which side is he? Is he Reform or Tory? Jonathan Gullis. Go on. Reform or Tory
51:38
Just been elected a councillor in Newcastle-under-Light. Reform Tory Green or Monster Raving Loony Party
51:44
Which one are you going to go for? A, B, C or Z? Jonathan Gullis is back
51:49
And it is, I think, probably unsurprising to you to discover that the party he has elected to pin his colours to
52:00
is the party led by Nigel Farage, the Reform UK party. A quick word on that
52:05
This really matters. I mean, it doesn't matter to the people who voted for him
52:09
or some of the people who voted for him, but if you care about democracy, if you care about transparency
52:16
if you care about billionaires, giving enormous sums of money to politicians who try to keep that secret and you should then this obviously matters But even if you don care about it even if you love the racism or the misogyny or the climate change denial or the transphobia or
52:35
whatever it is, you love it all so much you don't care. You don't care about any of the
52:39
behaviours that would be questionable, if not corrupt. But questionable is the word that we
52:46
will go with. You don't care about any of the questionable behaviours. You will never stop
52:51
other people from caring. Even Donald Trump has discovered that. Seems to drive him potty
52:55
You will always care. The fact that he's got a son-in-law now trying to negotiate peace
52:59
in the Middle East while simultaneously hoovering up money from some of the most powerful people in the Middle East for his
53:05
private business concerns. 30% of Americans, 40% of Americans don't care about that. But you
53:11
have to care. Even if other people don't care. There was truth
53:15
and untruth. Your second Orwell quote of the day. And if you could hold
53:19
on to the truth, even if you were the only one, you would not go mad. So when a politician receives £5 million
53:25
from a foreign-based billionaire set to make huge sums of money from policies that that politician
53:30
has pledged to introduce, it matters, which is why every journalist in the country
53:34
should be doing this. You talked about some difficult questions of funding for local councils
53:40
You've had some difficult questions about your own funding. Yeah, yeah. We'll talk about that any other time you like
53:45
Go on. Talk about that any other time you like. All right, let's talk about it, I don't know, an hour later with Nick Ferrari
53:50
sorry, you did not take a question about this £5 million donation
53:54
No. Why? I tell you what, I tell you what. You took questions on everything else, Mr Farage
53:58
If you want to have a chat... Well, everything else was about the election. If you want to have a conversation..
54:02
Can someone say this speaks to your integrity, Mr Farage? If you want to have a discussion at some point, Nick with me
54:07
about illegally obtained information that shouldn't be in the public domain, we can talk about it
54:11
Was it illegally obtained? Oh, yes. And right now, as well as other things that have happened over the last few weeks
54:18
computer hacking, you know it. I'm afraid. But, you know, we can discuss it another time
54:23
Right now, we'll discuss it later. Let's stop talking about the firebombing, I think
54:27
Has he? That the Metropolitan Police have revealed they're not investigating because no firebombing was ever reported
54:33
They're looking at an attempted burglary at one of his many properties, and I don't know how many houses he's got now
54:38
but I can tell you one thing, he's definitely anti-establishment and sticking up for the working man
54:42
And, of course, I can tell you that he bought a house for cash, or his girlfriend bought a house for cash in his constituency
54:47
shortly after he received a £5 million donation from a Thai-based billionaire
54:51
That's his girlfriend who was working as a waitress, not in a cocktail bar, when they met
54:57
That is quite an interesting moment, that, because he might as well have shouted..
55:03
Bernard Manning. He's just refusing to answer the question. It is, of course, relevant, of course, important
55:09
if a man who Andrew Marr suggested this morning seems set to become Prime Minister
55:14
has taken five million pounds from a foreign billionaire who not only is set to make a huge sum of money from policies
55:22
Farage has already indicated he would introduce, but the company, the cryptocurrency company
55:27
of which he owns, I think, 12%, shortly after accepting the money
55:31
Nigel Farage started bigging it up on this very radio station, in that chair there
55:36
talking about what a fantastic company it was. Now, that has to matter
55:40
And it's very, very much the Orwell point. even if you are the only one
55:46
And I'm not because, of course, the person that asked the question at the press conference
55:50
thinks that this matters too. I don't know who Nick's referring to when he says some people might think it speaks to your integrity
55:56
I mean, who wouldn't think that it speaks to a man's integrity
56:00
if he says if he takes five million quid from someone who is set to make billions potentially from policies
56:06
which he's already said that he's going to introduce. But it matters and it will always matter
56:12
and it will never stop mattering But listen to how he deals with it. He deals with it by refusing to acknowledge the question
56:18
He can't quite shout fake news because the journalists have absolutely nailed this story to the floor
56:24
It's completely copper-bottomed. He can't shout fake news. He can't shout firebombing anymore
56:30
because that story, like the time he claimed that a mechanic had told him that the wheel nuts on his Volvo
56:35
had been tampered with in an assassination attempt and then journalists tracked down the mechanic
56:39
and whatever the French word is that rhymes with the English word for Rollex, is what they discovered
56:45
So he had to abandon that lie. But it doesn't matter, because he's got through the news cycle
56:51
you see, or he's got through that moment. He's got through the spotlight. He's got out of the spotlight
56:57
You have to talk about this. No, I don't. Something, something, something, firebomb, something
57:01
something, illegally obtained, something, something. Bernard Manning. That's how he does it, every single time
57:07
And I'll never get tired of pointing this out, because I don't know why, to be
57:10
honest. It feels like a public service. And of course, you know, on days like today, you see the results and you realize that a significant number of your countrymen and women don't care at all
57:21
Whether they're so high on the snake oil or whether they're so committed to the racism, misogyny, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, climate change, whatever else it is
57:31
Or just the false hope, to be a bit kinder perhaps, just the false promise that he's going to make your life better
57:38
It never stops mattering. It never stops mattering. And perhaps the best example of this is the way in which people who insisted that Keir Starmer's spectacles were a matter of enormous public and political significance
57:55
Spectacles that were bought for him by a parliamentary colleague and old friend who is loaded
58:01
And who was seeking, well unless of course he thought that the manifesto was going to be changed according to the purchase of the spectacles
58:08
He was seeking nothing in return except to enhance the possibility of his colleague and party leader getting elected
58:15
So the people that pretended that Keir Starmer's spectacles was or were of enormous political significance and count the days that story stayed live
58:26
Think back to the curry that he had while he was campaigning during lockdown, an event, an act found to be entirely within the rules and the law
58:35
and yet the people who still lie about Boris Johnson losing his job
58:39
because he ate some cake instead of losing his job because he couldn't assemble a cabinet of cronies and cretins
58:44
even within the confines of the Conservative Party. It all matters. It never stops mattering
58:51
If you ever have moments, because some of you do ask me about this, if you ever have moments where you think, what's the point
58:58
then George Orwell has got the answer to that question. There was truth and there was untruth
59:03
and if you could hold on to the truth even if you were the only one you would not go mad
59:08
so in the united states of america people who warned about donald trump are being proved right
59:13
on a daily basis but 25 30 35 percent of the population don't care and some of them will
59:19
never care you met you will never know why we can do a million phone-ins and we will
59:24
a million phone-ins um on the question of why why people don't care why anyone could care
59:31
or profess to care so much more about spectacles. And they do about five million secret pounds
59:40
Five million secret pounds. On top of the God knows how many public pounds
59:46
that the same Thailand-based cryptocurrency billionaire has donated to the party. You have to care
59:53
Because if you don't care, then ultimately, you don't really care about your country
59:59
has of course always been the mark of both the populist and the fascist. They don't care about their country
1:00:05
They care only about themselves. Save us, Nigel. James O'Brien on LBC
1:00:14
If you're listening to yesterday's programme, then you will understand what I'm about to do
1:00:18
If you were not listening to yesterday's programme, then you won't. And you needed to listen not to all of it, but at least to Mystery Hour
1:00:23
OK? I think yesterday's programme was the funniest we have ever done together
1:00:28
partly because Guy Gomer visited the studio. Guy Gomer, of course, the man who was famously booked
1:00:33
or not booked for a BBC interview, but conducted it anyway. The one who ended up on television by accident, you remember
1:00:41
A bit like me, really, but I ended up on the radio by accident. It was just really, really funny
1:00:47
It was a really lovely show. So if you want to have a giggle or a warm glow
1:00:51
over the course of the weekend, I really would recommend that you listen back to it. But anyway, if you listened to Mystery Hour yesterday
1:00:57
which was a vintage edition, then you'll know roughly where I'm going with this
1:01:01
What did the penguin get from the genie in the lamp? What did the penguin get from the genie in the lamp
1:01:10
Do you want to have a go? Go on. Eleanor's jumping up and down. Yes! Three fishes, get it
1:01:16
You can come here all week, try the veal. And Keith, very kindly
1:01:21
because we're that kind of crew here, you know, we're that kind of crew. Keith very kindly got me a pint penguin
1:01:28
A mint penguin. He's got a whole packet of them. He's brought one for every member of the team
1:01:33
I'd share mine with you, but it would be a little bit logistically difficult. So I will tell you, I'll tell you after the half past 11 what I think about the mint penguin
1:01:40
But I didn't know that they had jokes on the packet, and I think we got an answer to the question of how many jokes there are in total
1:01:46
Shall we get back to the politics and the question of, really, just a general post-mortem of yesterday
1:01:52
Kemi Badenock has spoken. I joked at the beginning of the programme that she would be claiming victory
1:01:56
there's a very good chance of course that when we actually turn our attention to what she has been saying
1:02:02
and the tone in which she has said it that that will cease to be a joke and turn instead into a prediction
1:02:08
Is it possible that Kemi Bader-Knot would be claiming victory in these circumstances? Knowing Kemi Bader-Knot then yes it is
1:02:14
Do we know yet whether she could be described as claiming victory in these circumstances
1:02:17
Not quite but we will shortly. Before that Matthew is in Kingsland in Norfolk
1:02:21
Matthew what made you pick up the phone? Hi James thanks for having me on
1:02:25
You're very welcome. Yeah, I was basically just unpicking the reasons why whatever Keir Starmer does in regard to immigration, it would never appease reform voters
1:02:35
And the point that I landed on in the end was probably oversimplifying it or maybe stating the obvious
1:02:42
It's obvious to me. They want to be angry. They want to blame all of their problems on something
1:02:49
They've chosen to blame everything in their life that's going wrong on immigration
1:02:53
So what happens when you start fixing that problem? Yeah. They've run out of things to blame on
1:02:58
Or they move on to... Something else. Yeah, well, we know that they're moving on to people on benefits
1:03:04
disability benefits, unemployment benefits, this idea that there's millions and millions of people in the country
1:03:10
who are conning the system. Exactly. Swinging the lead. It's George Osborne territory, actually
1:03:17
He did the same thing as well. Listen, I understand where Labour came from on this
1:03:21
And I know you've completely conceded yourself that you're oversimplifying it. There'll be plenty of people who voted for reform yesterday
1:03:27
who are not curdled with hatred. They've just been persuaded that this is a problem
1:03:33
And there are problems, you know. You're going to see crimes committed by people who recently arrived
1:03:39
and they are, for good or for ill, going to be reported with a hell of a lot more prominence
1:03:43
than crimes committed by people who were born here or who have always lived here
1:03:47
The same crimes will receive completely different levels of coverage. So the people responding emotionally to that
1:03:53
are not bad people. they might have been manipulated a bit but they're not desperately looking
1:03:59
for someone to hate they are persuaded that they are being threatened
1:04:05
if you like so maybe some of those people are the people that could be won back
1:04:11
I would say those people are your most likely ones that you could win back
1:04:15
to something a bit more normal a bit more rational how do you even do that
1:04:19
start hitting them over the head with rape statistics about the number of white men
1:04:23
that are responsible for these kind of crimes as opposed to the number of brown men
1:04:29
I mean, see, Labour thought that... Oh, crikey, you're good, Matthew, because Labour thought they would do that as well, didn't they
1:04:33
By beginning to publish the ethnicity of offenders and revealing the ethnicity of suspects in cases
1:04:39
They thought they'd be able to burst some of these balloons of bigotry. But it doesn't matter, does it
1:04:44
Because even if you're compelled to reveal the ethnicity, if the newspapers aren't reporting the crimes committed by white people
1:04:49
and are reporting the crimes committed by brown people, then argue you've made the position even worse
1:04:55
I think ultimately Labour will need to work on something else. Not forget the immigration, but, you know
1:05:01
they've dealt with that one issue, they need to win voters back with something completely different
1:05:08
something that will actually, you know, excite people and drive people to want to vote for them
1:05:12
And this is why they're using that dread word, reset, but it's also why people like Stephen, our earlier caller
1:05:17
are very disillusioned with the U-turns or the abandonment of original positions
1:05:22
I am, if not the king, then certainly the prince regent of centrist dads, right
1:05:28
And one of the reasons why people like me boil the blood of a certain type of commentator and politician
1:05:33
is because I generally vote to make my own life worse. This isn't being holier than thou
1:05:38
or self-flagellating or aren't I great, but I generally vote to pay more tax, for example
1:05:46
I'm likely to vote, I think I probably did vote, for a mansion tax that I am eligible for
1:05:51
And I don't know what they are offering to me. I vote to be less well-off in the hope that people
1:06:00
much less well-off than me will be a little bit better off. And that particular parsnip isn't being very well-buttered
1:06:06
at the moment either. Maybe they need a bit more of that
1:06:10
Maybe they actually need to tap into people wanting a better place for everyone
1:06:14
And as soon as you start helping people who haven't got a lot
1:06:18
you leave the back door open to the accusation that you're helping people who don't help themselves
1:06:23
So, I mean, it is a rock and a hard place, but you're right. They're going to have to find a better way through it
1:06:27
They really are. Matthew, thank you. 03456060973 is the number you need
1:06:33
I'm going to get Agui Chambrae to join me to talk about whether or not Kemi Baden-Hart
1:06:37
has actually claimed victory in the current round of results, almost none of which are likely to be revealed
1:06:44
in the course of this programme. I think Sheila gets the bulk of it. When do we learn about Scotland and Wales
1:06:49
That's much, much later. I mean, there's an argument, actually, for doing the overnight show on the Friday
1:06:55
rather than the Thursday, isn't there, with the locals? But we're all addicted to the system
1:06:59
Not a lot happened overnight in the great scheme of things. There's a percentage of all the numbers
1:07:04
Andrew Marr will probably get a fairly fat slice of cake, will he? Come this evening, six till seven, live on LBC
1:07:11
But for the rest of us, it's an odd one. It's not quite up there with having to talk for three hours
1:07:16
when nothing's happening and just repeat the same thing over and over again. Or provide some of my famous royal coverage, which everybody enjoys
1:07:23
But nothing is changing in the course of the show but things have changed and are changing in the context of politics That what we talking about Matthew thank you 11 is the time
1:07:36
My tummy is rumbling and I don't know what to do about it. I'm very sorry. A lot of you are picking it up
1:07:41
I can't eat a penguin while I'm presenting a radio programme. I was going to have it during the half past 11 break
1:07:46
but it's a testament to the quality of the technology in the studio and how closely you listen to the programme
1:07:52
that a number of people are now picking me up on the fact that my tummy is rumbling
1:07:56
But you're not hearing things, just to reassure you. It is correct, but I grant you, it's quite unprofessional
1:08:01
Let's hope that a mint penguin will solve the p-p-p-p-p-p-problem. Kay's in Redbridge
1:08:07
Kay, what would you like to say? Oh, it's really hard to make a serious point
1:08:11
of what you've just been saying, because you're making me laugh too much. Have you ever listened to this programme before, Kay
1:08:16
This is what I live to do. Okay, here is the point
1:08:20
And I hope your tummy stops rumbling in the break. I do think that Labour, Keir Starmer in particular
1:08:27
backed the wrong horse regarding the immigration thing. And I think what reform has been doing is kind of three things
1:08:36
One, talking about or trying to promote national identity more, as in the primacy of the majority, as in white, male, working class
1:08:46
And that's why they're getting that vote. I think the other thing they're doing is kind of making promises to make a positive difference to the lives of the electorate
1:08:54
And that's not kind of groups of the electorate, but all of the electorate. And then the other thing, and this is where Keir Starman is failing big time
1:09:02
is that if you think of the book kind of Emus by Gerber, where he talks about having the entrepreneur, the manager and the technician within the business
1:09:10
there's basically a vacancy because kia starman is a manager his government a technician but there
1:09:17
is a clear vacancy in terms of the entrepreneur having the vision for how to improve the lives of
1:09:23
people in the country there's just nothing there all he does is is manage the new turn and deal
1:09:30
with things that kind of happen in the country or across the world but he never seems to have a
1:09:35
clear vision of certainly not one who's communicated so it's the difference between
1:09:39
defense and attack, if you like, or between reaction and action. Yeah
1:09:45
That's what you're saying. He might be quite good at coping with things that come up, like, for example
1:09:51
the war in Iran. I think he's played an absolute blinder on that. I don't think anyone would
1:09:55
dispute it now except Dick Littlejohn at the Daily Mail, who's writing about Coronation Street
1:09:59
or something. I hope you've called it correctly. He said he should have been
1:10:04
foreign office, not actually a fake, but yeah, a foreign office minister, he would have been fabulous at that
1:10:10
A foreign secretary, yeah. Foreign secretary, there you go. But certainly not prime minister
1:10:16
He's disastrous in that realm. Well, I don't go that far, but I do want you to answer my theory
1:10:22
or my life raft at the moment, that he is the least bad option
1:10:27
Who do you think would be better? I would have someone like either Andy Burnham or Waste Streeting
1:10:35
I think they are envisioned. I think they have a big following
1:10:40
I think they would do a good job. But I am appalled at the trouble that he went to
1:10:44
to make sure that Andy Burnham couldn't stand. That just seems so small
1:10:49
If you so believe in what you're doing and how you're doing it
1:10:54
then let people do what they need to do and prove that you're the better man
1:10:58
What he did, I just think that's unscathable because if you're doing things on behalf of the country
1:11:05
then it should be the best man or woman for the job. And I don't think that's him
1:11:10
And he shouldn't be blocking other people who could do a really good job. Yeah, I mean, I don't agree with much of what you said
1:11:16
but I can't argue with much of it either. I mean, the idea of having another round of infighting
1:11:23
I think even John Major came out recently, a Tory, if that word means anything anymore
1:11:29
and said, let's not have another prime minister. I just think that the public and possibly the media have become both inured and addicted to the madness of changing leaders regularly as we change our trousers
1:11:43
But a lot of the other points you make are fairly powerful. I don't have... The problem is, this is why I envy Nigel Farage fans, because they really love him
1:11:52
I mean, let me see if I can find some messages that demonstrate... I mean, no one is disputing the fact that what they love is the racism, the misogyny, the climate change denial, the transphobia
1:12:02
I mean, you add whatever it is that you like to that list. Or, if I'm being generous, the fake hope
1:12:08
No one's denying that ysis. And it doesn't matter because you love him anyway. This is Trumpian
1:12:13
I don't know whether I envy or pity people who feel like that about a politician
1:12:18
I can't imagine ever feeling like that about a politician. I'd like to feel a little bit more than, hmm, he's the best of a bad lot, or he's the least bad option
1:12:28
I don't think anybody's ever gone to war on the it's the least bad option argument
1:12:33
So I don't know whether to envy or pity people who look at politicians and feel sort of quite strange emotional stirrings
1:12:40
like people do when they look at Donald Trump or, in this country, Nigel Farage or Boris Johnson
1:12:46
I would use the word cult or cultish to describe both the individuals and their followers
1:12:55
So, no, I don't think it's enviable. It just must make life so much easier, mustn't it
1:13:00
To be excused the difficulty of thinking about things and living entirely according to feelings and appetites
1:13:08
Why do you like him? Bernard Manning. But what is it that you actually like
1:13:12
straight talking, but he doesn't answer questions about five million. Cake. He had to eat cake
1:13:19
He had to go because he had some cake. MAGA. Make America great again
1:13:23
So what are your thoughts on this complicated policy subject? Kill them
1:13:27
Eat them. Make America great again. Lock her up. Show me her emails
1:13:33
Bernard Manning. You see what I mean, though? It's kind of nice. I don't think I'd get
1:13:39
much of a radio show out of it, if that was my worldview but some people manage here's dominic ellis with the headlines james o'brien on lbc
1:13:48
it's nostrigimus i suggested at the top of the program as a joke but the only thing that was
1:13:55
missing from reactions to yesterday's uh election so far was kemi badenock claiming victory
1:14:01
aggie chombrey lbc's deputy political editor has been listening to kemi badenock's pronouncements
1:14:07
in the last few minutes. And I have to ask you, Aggie, did she sound like she was claiming victory
1:14:13
Yes. Yeah! It was genuinely confusing to listen to because, of course, the context of this
1:14:21
is the Conservatives having a very, very bad night, losing 171 seats
1:14:29
And Kemi Badenok this morning sounded delighted. I think we can hear a little bit of what she had to say
1:14:36
Just look at some of the great results that we have had up and down
1:14:41
Look at Harlow. People said that reform was going to take all 11 seats in Harlow
1:14:46
How many did they get? Zero. How many did we get? Eleven
1:14:51
We have done brilliantly in Westminster. We have taken back Wandsworth People said no one even expected anything to happen in Wandsworth Wandsworth is now under Conservative control Just look at look at look at look at Fairham look at Fairham where reform said that they were
1:15:11
going to be marching through. Conservative hold. We were told that we were going to be wiped out
1:15:15
in Bexley. What's happened in Bexley? Conservative hold. And it's better than a Conservative hold
1:15:22
And all councillors there have actually increased their majorities. The Conservatives are coming back
1:15:29
I thought I heard someone called Kemi Badenot predict that they were going to do well in Westminster and Wandsworth
1:15:33
So I don't know who that was, claiming that nobody thought that they were going to... Was it 2024 when those decades-long Tory strongholds within London
1:15:42
fell to Labour during that hideous, for her, 2024, for their party
1:15:48
But now they're back. But that was triumphal. Absolutely. Triumphant. Triumphant. All of them
1:15:55
All of those words. She sounded absolutely... 171 councillors lost. And I should say, she did apologise
1:16:03
She did say sorry to those who had lost their seat. Right. But I do want to say to those candidates and councillors
1:16:10
who stood and who did not win, I am sorry. I wish you were celebrating with us this morning
1:16:17
but I want you to know that this is the beginning. This is not the end
1:16:21
conservatives are coming back we are coming back and we're going to win those seats again thank you
1:16:28
for everything that you did thank you and i want you to know that we're going to be moving forwards
1:16:34
because we are the only serious alternative to labor the labor party is getting kicked out
1:16:41
people do not like the offer that they have people voted for change and they got change for the worse
1:16:46
with Labour. But we have to show that we are the only party that has a strong united team
1:16:54
Is Wandsworth definitely taught? I thought it was hung. Uh, Wandsworth, uh, is, is conservative control. It's gone because of conservative control. It's
1:17:02
gone conservative control. But it was interesting because she did say to the candidates and the
1:17:06
councillors, I am sorry I wish you were celebrating, but, but this is just the beginning
1:17:11
Is it a little bit like Lord Farquhar in Shrek? Some of you may die, but that is a price I am willing to pay
1:17:20
I suppose that is a comparison you could make, James. That is a comparison you could make
1:17:26
It's just an interesting tone to strike because, of course, they have had very bad losses
1:17:32
And, of course, they were coming from a point the last time these elections were contested
1:17:36
the last time these seats were up for grabs, was a pretty bad time for the Tories too
1:17:41
That was when Boris Johnson was in a lot of trouble over Partigate
1:17:45
It was just months before, do you remember, the Sue Gray report? That came out. So it wasn't like they were starting from a particularly high point
1:17:51
And indeed, you know, we still just have some results. We're expecting many, many more
1:17:57
And it could still get worse for the Conservatives. But so far, she is striking an upbeat, positive tone
1:18:05
a very, very different one. to the tone being struck by Sir Keir Starmer
1:18:10
the Prime Minister, who has also had a very, very bad night, and from some council leaders
1:18:15
Actually, in the last few minutes, one of our colleagues, Alex Taylor-Brown, has spoken to the Barnsley council leader
1:18:21
Barnsley we're expecting at 4.30pm, and that is a proper, proper Labour stronghold
1:18:26
But Steve Houghton spoke to Alex Taylor-Brown and listened to how, well, downbeat he sounds
1:18:32
It's a national picture, a national tide, a tsunami of discontent with both the government and the Prime Minister especially
1:18:39
and that's just shone through. As I've said to others, this was the local election that never was
1:18:45
because it was all about national politics. It wasn't about the great record we've got locally
1:18:50
and people saying to us, don't like Kirsten Armour, don't like the government, and that's how I'm going to vote
1:18:54
and we're saying, no, this is about Barnsley and your local councillors and your local communities
1:18:58
Nah, that's what we're going to do, and that's been the challenge, And it's disappointing because we hoped that pushback about this is local, think local
1:19:06
vote local, clearly hasn't resonated enough. So that was Steve Houghton, the Barnsley Council leader, and we will get that result about 4.30pm today
1:19:16
James, I should say, I just told you that Wandsworth was Conservative control, which is what Kemi Badenowicz said, but it's actually no overall control in Wandsworth
1:19:24
Well, the gaffe-proof politician. Maybe we slightly misheard her because I think they've got one more councillor
1:19:31
than Labour, but they don't have overall control of that council either. I mean, to be a little
1:19:37
kinder, if they've done better than they feared, then you'd be allowed a little triumphalism
1:19:44
would you? I mean, were they expecting even more of a wipeout? I mean, because Labour have done
1:19:50
better than they feared. So far, yes. So far. And for anyone confused, the numbers have not been
1:19:56
encountered yet in Wales or in Scotland. So, we're not ignoring anything up there. One or
1:20:01
two texas have suggested that we've just got nothing to talk about at the minute. But have
1:20:05
they done better than they expected, the Conservatives? I think so far they're doing about as they expected
1:20:12
Just giving you an off-ramp there to excuse Kemi Bader-Knox triumphalism, but no, it's
1:20:17
just bonkers. But it's interesting, isn't it? Because the expectation management is obviously so
1:20:23
important at this stage and you mentioned Labour doing better than expected. It's true there are
1:20:27
people like John Curtis, the polling expert, suggesting that actually Labour could only lose
1:20:32
1,200 seats overall which is still an extraordinary amount because... But half of some of the worst
1:20:38
projections. Exactly because there have been some suggestions about them losing potentially 2,000
1:20:42
and some strategists saying you know if they only lost 1,000 that would be a good or an okay
1:20:47
result. So I think expectation management has been in full full force over the past few weeks
1:20:51
Have you been following Tottenham Hotspur's season? I'm afraid to say I have. I wish I hadn't
1:20:58
So, if Tottenham Hotspur were to avoid relegation, which is looking more likely this week than it was last week
1:21:03
they would be celebrating. Yes. Even though they'd had their worst season of the modern era
1:21:10
Yes. So, perhaps that's where Kemi Badenoch is this morning. Yes. Potentially that
1:21:16
I mean, it doesn't look like she is going to get relegated at all
1:21:20
I mean, even if they had a worse night than the night and the next day or so
1:21:24
I don't think Kemi Baden-Ock's leadership is actually in contention at all
1:21:29
So if we're going to make that comparison, whereas Keir Starmer's leadership very much has been in contention
1:21:34
and does feel like if these results are bad enough, then there will be serious and already are serious questions about him
1:21:41
So I suppose that is a comparison one could make about Tottenham Hotspurs and the Conservative Party
1:21:48
Hee hee! So, probably nothing on my watch. Are we expecting something about half 11, 12
1:21:54
No, 12.31, rather, from... 12.31, so 12.30, Blackburn, Manchester, 12.32. And this is kind of expectations
1:22:05
We should be getting sort of rough pitches this afternoon by and by early evening in Scotland and Wales
1:22:12
And those ones are kind of obviously the most important, really, and the key ones to watch
1:22:17
if Labour do as badly as many pollsters have predicted, then we could see statements from Anna Sour Of course he already called for Sir Keir Starmer to go and said afterwards he doesn resolve from those comments but that will have a different impact I sure if Labour do indeed come third in Scotland
1:22:36
Yes. And we may hear from Leonard Morgan, the First Minister, at the moment of Wales, too, if they come, well, either way
1:22:43
That should be done and dusted by Forish, the Welsh. Yeah, so..
1:22:47
I saw a colleague earlier, I won't tell you who, printing out the constituency names in phonetic
1:22:52
fine you can understand why i'm glad i'm not going to be on air is that's that's sheila is it and tom
1:22:57
who are going to no no a bit later than four sorry but nearer to six o'clock i think the
1:23:01
sir andrew mar the fight sir andrew mar is going to have to be having a crack at i'm not even going
1:23:06
to try to do these these words is the double d like a th sound what i'm not telling you who it
1:23:17
was but he's printed them all out she or she they have printed them all out in phonetic form and um
1:23:22
they were desperately cribbing them as i as i passed them in a corridor a few hours ago so i
1:23:27
probably won't see you again maybe at half past 12 when we get manchester and burnley and i and i
1:23:32
think those will be interesting right because you remember blackburn we just had uh gorton and
1:23:36
denton yes uh in the manchester area too which of course was won by the greens is it significant
1:23:41
that we haven't mentioned the greens until that point or or is it just the the sophology of it
1:23:46
the results that are in as opposed to the results that are not in. But I did think that the Greens might be a rather bigger story so far
1:23:54
But of course, there's nothing to stop them becoming a bigger story later. I think that's bang on
1:23:58
I think they haven't done as well as some people predicted overnight
1:24:02
But it was always going to be the seats in sort of inner London where the Greens might do extremely well and might take seats off Labour
1:24:09
So I think those are ones to watch out for the rest of today into this afternoon
1:24:14
Indeedy, and there is a slight rejig to the LBC line-up for rather obvious reasons
1:24:20
Andrew Marr will be with you at six and then Ian Dale will be with you at seven
1:24:24
Thank you, Aggie Interesting that you follow Tottenham Hotspur season Have you been keeping an eye on Kiddie Minster Harriot
1:24:28
No, that's where I draw the line Pardon? Are you joking? Always
1:24:34
Kiddie Minster Harriot? I take a moment out of the programme, if I may to wish the very best to Adam Murray's Red Army
1:24:40
who make their way to South Shields tomorrow for the playoff final in the National League North
1:24:44
or the dizzy heights of non-league football, vying for a return to the fifth level of British football
1:24:52
for the first time, or of English football, forgive me, crikey, how to offend everybody in a single sentence
1:24:57
of English football. Aggies leaving, Aggies going. Where are you going? Oh, never mind
1:25:04
But I mean it, seriously, as a kid of Mr. Harris fan who hasn't got to as many games this season as I did last season
1:25:09
because I think subconsciously I was beginning to think I might be a jinx. I was there for the last game of the league last year
1:25:16
I went all the way up to Southport. So I don't know if I'd have got a ticket for the trip to South Shields
1:25:20
I might have had to pull some strings. I went all the way to Southport when we were expecting to be crowned
1:25:26
but we lost and therefore had to go into the playoffs. And I went to the playoff final as well, and we lost that as well
1:25:31
So I'm not going tomorrow to South Shields. I think possibly because subconsciously, well, A, I want to see my mum
1:25:38
and B, who will be in Kidderminston, not Southfields, and B, do you ever get that feeling that you might be a jinx
1:25:45
I did it with Sean Murphy as well in the snooker. Every time I wasn't watching the snooker
1:25:50
Sean Murphy started coming back against the opponent in the final whose name temporarily eludes me
1:25:59
Is it Uy Zay? And then every time I turned the telly on
1:26:04
and I said, crikey, he's come back. Sean, come on, Sean. and then I'd started watching it for a bit
1:26:09
and the other fellow would start pulling ahead again until he actually got to 17-all
1:26:13
and I thought, well, I've got to watch this one and he lost. Or rather won, depending on who you were supporting
1:26:19
but I was supporting Sean Murphy as I always do once Michael Holt has been knocked out of the competition
1:26:23
or if Michael Holt has been knocked out of the competition because I think they're both due at least one more
1:26:30
absolute magnificent moment in the course of their careers but anyway, in case you asked
1:26:35
and at least one person did that's why I'm not going to South Shields tomorrow
1:26:39
Well, the main reason is that I haven't got a ticket and the second reason is that I worry I might have become something of a jinx
1:26:46
at the end of last season. That's really arrogant, isn't it? We probably had about a thousand travelling fans
1:26:51
who were there, all of whom would have then gone to the home game for the play-off final
1:26:55
How many of them are arrogant enough to think that they somehow supernaturally influenced the result
1:27:00
But best of luck to Kidderminster Harriers. to the finest team I think we've put on the park in quite a long
1:27:07
time and if there is any justice in the world it will be enough to see us over the line
1:27:11
and best of luck, I can't name you all although I did name the promotion winning side
1:27:15
in the acknowledgements of my last book all of you, I named the entire
1:27:19
promotion winning side in the acknowledgements of either my last book or the
1:27:23
book before but I can't name the entire team I'll just say to Adam Murray, keep it up
1:27:27
and come on the Reds James O'Brien on LBC 11.51 is the time
1:27:36
You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Someone was listening. I was moaning a moment ago about the fact that there won't be any results coming in during the course of my show
1:27:44
except possibly Manchester and Blackburn come half past 12. Some results started dropping
1:27:50
Hackney now has a Green Mayor down here in London. And Essex, I think, has gone to reform for the first time in 25 years
1:28:01
Reform UK, I think, have secured control of Essex County Council. The Mayor of Hackney, previously Labour, now Green
1:28:08
And that was the movement I was asking Aguish Ombre about. I think the results that were in overnight were not speaking to that question
1:28:19
if you see what I mean. So you can't read into the fact that the Greens hadn't secured swings like that overnight
1:28:26
as evidence that the Greens were not going to swing, secure swings like that in the course of the day
1:28:33
I mean, whichever way you dice it, it's currently looking like a brilliant day
1:28:36
for Thailand-based cryptocurrency billionaires and Vladimir Putin. Bob's in Salford. Bob, what would you like to say
1:28:44
Hi, James. Hello, mate. Hopefully, yeah, forgive me for saying eventually. Well, I think eventually is mild in the circumstances
1:28:53
Bob, what made you pick up the phone today? It was your first thing where you were talking about
1:28:57
what Labour are aiming for. They've lost the normal working vote. I mean, I'm a Salford lad
1:29:07
The family are all Salford kids, and Salford's pretty much Labour. But we're fed up with them
1:29:14
They just take us for granted. Feels that way. Did you vote for them last time in 2024
1:29:21
Maybe not last time, maybe the year before. So we've always voted so far, but once you get in power
1:29:28
they don't care about the working man. I'm talking about the real working man, not the public sector
1:29:37
Right. I mean, they've increased the living wage. Yeah, but I'm talking about plumbers and people like that
1:29:44
All we seem to do is pay tax for... And we have more than enough money, James
1:29:51
to pay for the real people who need benefits, yeah? Yeah. We have more than enough money for that
1:30:00
I... Hello? Well, I try not to interrupt you, but I can't win, can I
1:30:08
Honestly, I interrupt people, I get told... Why do you like the public sector, James? What do you mean by the public sector
1:30:13
Just out of interest. The public sector is the councils, the... The nurses, the soldiers..
1:30:19
Oh, well, maybe not the NHS, let's talk about... The police officers, the police officers, the firefighters, the ambulance drivers..
1:30:26
They're all on final salaries. We don't get them anymore, do we
1:30:30
No, but it wasn't Labour that took them away. It was your employers
1:30:34
Private sector can't afford it. Well, I mean, it depends who you're working for, doesn't it
1:30:40
How many private sectors have got final salaries, not games? None of them have to provide them after Tory legislation was brought in
1:30:48
So why are you pinning this on Labour? Because they can afford it and we're paying for it
1:30:53
I don't really understand what you're saying. Sorry, just before we finish, James. Well, no, you can carry on for as long as you want, Bob
1:30:57
I don't like the fact that... Yeah. If you vote against the party you want
1:31:02
you're either, what is it, manipulated... What was your word? Or mistaken
1:31:08
...intelligence would mean... Sorry, lower educated. No, that's a statistical finding. That's not... I mean, it's an uncomfortable one
1:31:14
Lower intelligence. I said... No, not intelligence, Bob. Absolutely not intelligence. I mean, big difference between education and intelligence
1:31:22
Look at Jacob Rees-Mogg. Highly educated man. Yeah, but I went to a grammar school, yeah
1:31:27
Yeah. I was one of the two up, two down in Salford. What are you telling me, Bob
1:31:33
Four kids. What are you telling me? Well, that was a way out
1:31:38
No, but what are you telling me? Did you vote reform? It doesn't matter
1:31:43
I did, actually, this time. So what are you telling me? All these people have taken us for granted
1:31:48
Apart from the public sector pensions, what are you telling me? What else don't you like that you think Labour is responsible for
1:31:57
Benefits, yeah. Right. We have more than enough money, James, to pay for the people who really need it, don't we
1:32:05
Well, you keep saying that, and we are. No, but we pay for people who don't need it
1:32:10
Right. So we're there now. Do you think we don't pay for people who don't need it
1:32:15
I suspect there are some people swinging the lead. No, not many. I'm certain of it, but how do you find them
1:32:21
without punishing the ones that need it? Well, that's like... You can't bomb somewhere because they put people in front of the house
1:32:29
Yeah, I would also subscribe to that school of thought, to be honest with you, Bob. I mean..
1:32:35
I think it's exactly like that. If I'm trying to bomb someone because they're an enemy of mine
1:32:40
and they put your family... James, just one last thought before you go
1:32:44
I'm not going, Bob, because I really want to get to the bottom of what it is that you think you voted for
1:32:48
And then, James, we all these people who say, oh, we don't like grammar skills
1:32:53
Next time they're on the telly, Lord, or Sir, or Lady. All right, Bob
1:32:59
Oh, come on. Well, I mean, I don't know why we're talking about grammar schools and aristocratic titles
1:33:06
Why? I don't know. Well, it's not the same as normal labour in the past, is it
1:33:13
Ah, Tony Ben was a Viscount before he went into the house of town. Tony Viscount
1:33:18
was a proper... Tony Ben was a proper labour person, yeah. He was a Viscount
1:33:22
Bob, so, I mean, again, I'm not quite I'm not sure what point you... Oh, Bob
1:33:27
What are you hoping is going to improve in your life as a consequence of the vote that you cast yesterday up in Salford
1:33:34
I don't really know, James. Do you? Nothing changes, does it really
1:33:41
Well, it does if you're on a minimum wage. That's changed already. Oh, yeah, but that'd change anyway
1:33:46
I don't think a lot's going to change for anybody, is it? All right, mate. Do you think it's going to change
1:33:57
Well, I think things are changing in this country. Some for the better, some for the worse
1:34:02
Well, I'm paying more tax than I would have done under the Tories. Ah, but you pay through capital gains
1:34:07
You don't do a proper PAYE. I do, mate. Do you have
1:34:12
Yeah. Unusual for a radio host. Not for a while, actually. It's been the case for, I mean, quite a few years now
1:34:20
I think since they got rid of that, whatever that thing was. But you don't pay on your books and things
1:34:24
Anyway, I'm not going to get into a big argument about that. But I just think..
1:34:28
Because you're talking through your hat. So I am paying more tax under Labour than I would do under the Conservatives
1:34:34
So you just said what's changed. I told you. And you're... Well, we're all paying more tax under Labour than..
1:34:42
Well, exactly. So that's a change. Well, no, actually, that's not true
1:34:46
either. The poorest people aren't paying more than they would pay under the Conservatives
1:34:52
But you're paying to the wrong people. All right, Bob. I'm sorry, James, just one last thing
1:34:56
Oh, good. All this stuff about this-ism and this-ism. What about billionaireism
1:35:03
Yeah. What about billionaireism, Bob? Oh, well, they could pay more tax. Everyone else
1:35:08
could pay more tax than I can pay. Mate, you just voted for a bloke who took
1:35:12
five million quid from a billionaire who's based in Thailand. Which billionaires do you think have got a problem with Nigel Farrow
1:35:20
How many people, James, vote for the person who's going to make them pay more tax
1:35:24
apart from you, apparently? Well, I mean, every champagne socialist, middle-class liberal
1:35:29
member of the establishment, everybody that the people you've been persuaded to think are your enemy
1:35:36
So what are you going to be, James? Are you going to be Sir James? All right, Bob, I don't know
1:35:41
Would you reject it? Bob, what exactly is this? Would I reject a knighthood
1:35:46
Would you? I doubt it. If not, if my mum was alive. But what point would that make? It depends who offered it to me
1:35:53
I wouldn't take a knighthood from Kemi Bay or not. Oh, come on, it's elitism. Right. So you're against elitism
1:35:58
I'll tell you what was a more realistic thing. Starmer at Arsenal or Prince William at Villa
1:36:04
Well, Starmer's been going to Arsenal since he was a boy. What was more realistic, James
1:36:09
I think Starmer at Arsenal is probably more realistic than Prince William at Villa, but I've got to be honest with you, Bob
1:36:15
I'm honest with you, Bob. I've got no idea why you're asking me. You know, I've been with the Prince William doing a sweet colour line
1:36:21
Yeah, all right, Bob. I'm trying to find it on a friendly note, James. I don't know what note we're ending on, Bob, but you've said, with respect
1:36:28
what do you think the best point you've made is? That they've lost the normal working boat from Salford
1:36:36
And when we look into why you say that... Have you ever been kicked in the head by a horse
1:36:44
No, have you? feels like it, Bob. It's 12 noon. James O'Brien on LBC
1:36:52
It's four minutes after 12, and you are listening to James O'Brien
1:36:56
on LBC, where we continue to review the events overnight, although so far
1:37:02
as I'm sure you'll agree, there is nothing quite as exciting as the news that Jonathan Gullis
1:37:06
is back in politics. The former Conservative Deputy Chairman has been elected as a reform
1:37:10
councillor in Newcastle under Lyme, and I mean, you know, if you can't laugh in the current political climate then what can you do
1:37:19
A question that resonates all the way from Leicester Square to Salford
1:37:24
I got plenty of calls on the questions that we already asked Try not to be mean You know when you hear people on the programme It can be quite a nerve experience I used to be quite mean myself so I know what I talking about
1:37:37
But you can take away lessons in what happens when you ask a certain type of voter
1:37:42
what it is they're voting for or why they're voting. And that is why, of course, the kind of questions that we ask on this programme
1:37:49
are so unpopular with some people. but it's why you're more likely to see Genghis Khan sitting in the chair over there
1:37:56
than you are Nigel Farage any time soon, which is quite rude, really, because he challenged me to a debate once
1:38:01
and we had him on in a heartbeat. But I've been waiting, I think, 12 years now for a return fixture
1:38:07
for him to rise to the challenge of being interviewed by me
1:38:11
But no, anyway, straight-talking man. He'll talk to anybody, very honest, except people asking him questions about a £5 million donation
1:38:18
from a Thailand-based billionaire. But today is his day. What it is that his voters are celebrating or hoping for
1:38:26
I'm not entirely sure, but celebrating they most certainly are. Which brings us to Kami Baden-Ot
1:38:34
who somewhat improbably also seems to be celebrating, despite the fact that at the last count
1:38:41
and this would have changed slightly since I got these figures, at the last count, she had lost, her party had lost
1:38:47
And they had one of their worst results in history, didn't they, in 2024? And they've gone from one of their worst results
1:38:54
if not their very worst result in history. I just need to double-check that. And now they've lost, so far, another 170-odd losses
1:39:04
So, genuine question, what possible explanation can there be for this sort of triumphalism
1:39:13
Because Keir Starmer is clear that he's had an absolute nightmare. He currently stands at 259 losses, but from a much higher total than Kemi Baden-Ock
1:39:23
Ed Davey has joined us with good news and an upbeat demeanour
1:39:28
with regards to some of the results the Liberal Democrats have secured. Nigel Farage, who, of course, will be too frightened ever to appear on this programme
1:39:35
is understandably and justifiably celebrating the results that reform have got. So there's two winners there and two losers
1:39:42
So why is this loser trying to sound like a winner? just look at some of the great results that we have had uh up and down look at harlow people said
1:39:52
that reform was going to take all 11 seats in harlow how many did they get zero how many did
1:39:59
we get 11 we have done can we do that again with the mic live because i want to join in she's
1:40:06
infectious she's one that she's the best come on do it again because this is great just look at
1:40:11
Some of the great results that we have had up and down. Look at Harlow
1:40:16
People said that reform was going to take all 11 seats in Harlow. How many did they get
1:40:21
Zero. How many did we get? Eleven. We have done brilliantly in Westminster
1:40:28
We have taken back Wandsworth. People said no one even expected anything to happen
1:40:33
She did. She said that she was going to take Wandsworth. Wandsworth is now under Conservative control
1:40:37
You look at that. Yeah. Just look at look at look at Farham
1:40:42
look at look at Farham where reform said they were going to be marching through
1:40:46
Conservative hold we were told that we were going to be wiped out
1:40:49
in Bexley what's happened in Bexley Conservative hold and it's better than a
1:40:55
Conservative hold all councillors there have actually increased their majorities the Conservatives
1:41:01
are coming back I mean I feel guilty now 171 losses and counting, and Wandsworth
1:41:09
is no overall control. Did she actually say that she'd won Wandsworth? But anyway, it's no overall control
1:41:16
So, what happened in Wandsworth? We got no overall control! I've done what
1:41:26
the Labour Party gone wrong. I don't know that you can do that about the Conservatives
1:41:30
I feel as if they're... What's that phrase that Dominic Cummings uses all the time
1:41:36
which I never quite understood. Is it an NPC? God, Dominic Cummings
1:41:40
that's someone I haven't thought of for a while. Although, of course, an awful lot of what's going on is on him
1:41:44
That idea of now moving to the third act of a hideous play
1:41:49
a genuine tragedy, although it still might have a happy ending. Act one, Brexit
1:41:53
Act two, Boris Johnson becomes Prime Minister with Dominic Cummings at his side
1:41:57
Act three, Nigel Farage enjoys a storming success in the local election results
1:42:03
and possibly later today in the Welsh and Scottish elections as well
1:42:08
What will Act 4 be? Act 5, Andrew Marr thinks, could be Farage stepping over the threshold of Downing Street
1:42:13
And I'm not arguing with him. But if you look at how Act 1, Act 2 and Act 3 ended
1:42:18
it's extraordinary that anybody would think that we should have another go at the same sort of politics
1:42:24
But that is where we are at the moment. Can we double-check the Wandsworth thing
1:42:30
We have taken back Wandsworth. This is awkward. I love her so much
1:42:37
I never do gaffs. I never do gaffs. Wandsworth Council currently under no overall control
1:42:42
We have taken back Wandsworth... But I never do gaffs. I never, ever do gaffs
1:42:47
I don't do gaffs. And I've won. I said... Anyway. So, with Labour, you can look at what's gone on and what's happened
1:42:53
Is it a non-playing character? An NPC? So, when you are in an open-world game
1:43:00
what have I been playing most recently? the Ghost of Yotei actually
1:43:05
I haven't found a new game to play yet or I'm probably going to go with Red Redemption 2
1:43:11
you're playing a game and some of the characters in it you interact with right
1:43:17
you buy stuff from them most obviously you fight them you just get missions from them
1:43:23
you talk to them but lots of the characters you can't interact with at all you might be able to sort of shoot them
1:43:28
if you're playing Grand Theft Auto or trip them up or something
1:43:32
but you know what I mean, an NPC is a character who has no role in the plot
1:43:39
And that is the very first time, listening to that celebratory speech from a woman who's just lost 171 seats
1:43:47
that's the first time I've wondered whether, actually, Kami Badenoch is an NPC in British politics
1:43:56
Wow. I mean, I'm soon to be in my mid-50s. Right? So the big conservative names from the course of my life are Titans, whether you liked them or not
1:44:06
You begin probably with Margaret Thatcher. You go a little bit beyond the parameters of my life, you reach immediately for Winston Churchill
1:44:13
You've got a Harold Macmillan, you've got a Ted Heath, you've got a John Major. You've got a Boris Johnson, who was many, many things, but nobody could claim he was irrelevant
1:44:23
This is something that Farage was touching on earlier. About the obliteration
1:44:29
and it's not even that. See, again, you fall into the traps of swilling their snake oil
1:44:35
and regurgitating it. It's just a rebranding of the Tory party. Why do you think all the donors are moving over
1:44:41
Why do you think the owner of JCB is pouring cash into their coffers? This is a bloke who let Boris Johnson live in his garden
1:44:47
after he left Downing Street. It's not exactly what you'd call a changing of the guard, is it
1:44:52
or a challenge to the establishment. It just a rebranding what really weird about it so it a non character or an MPC I got what is it Can someone tell me Have I got it right
1:45:05
Is that the correct phrase? I have got it right. Why is everyone texting me to tell me I've got it wrong? How rude you are
1:45:11
The Tory party destroyed itself over Brexit, bizarrely. And of course, if there were any prospect whatsoever of not destroying itself over Brexit
1:45:19
it destroyed itself by putting Boris Johnson into Downing Street and having him in charge when a worldwide pandemic hit
1:45:24
So what do you do if that is the politics that you as a plutocrat, as an oligarch, as a billionaire based in Thailand
1:45:31
what do you do if that's the politics that you need? You need to have these people in charge because that's the only way you're going to get even richer
1:45:37
And you need people like Bob Insulford to vote for those people because that's the only way you're going to get richer
1:45:42
Well, you need to find a new vehicle. You need to find a new vehicle. It is a complete coincidence that Farage reversed his determination to leave politics entirely
1:45:51
shortly after he received £5 million from a Thailand-based billionaire. a complete coincidence
1:45:57
But if you were concerned that the Tory party had become unelectable
1:46:01
and you wanted to provide some sort of alternative, then somebody possessed of the cultish quality
1:46:06
that you probably need to persuade significant swathes of the population to vote against their own obvious interests
1:46:13
well, you would probably arrive at somebody like Nigel Farage. So reform is Tory rebranded
1:46:19
It's even got the same characters in it, hasn't it? You know, 30 P. Lee, you could almost feel sorry for
1:46:26
She's been pushed ever further backwards by the arrival of Tories who were the very worst of the last government
1:46:32
Here's Andrea Ledsom. No, not Ledsom, the other one. What's the other one called
1:46:38
Jenkins. Andrea Jenkins. She must have joined them, has she? I honestly can't remember. I need to keep a list, probably get it laminated
1:46:45
She must have joined them, hasn't she? So here's Andrea Jenkins, one of the very worst Boris Johnson fetishising Tories
1:46:51
here's suella braverburn yep she's in there she's joined honest bob jenrick you bet your bottom
1:46:58
dollar honest bob jenrick's there but reform is nothing like the tories who else have we got on
1:47:04
that list uh 30p lee went early but he's getting pushed right to the back of the queue who else
1:47:12
has gone over i can't i can't keep up with it all andrew rosindale is there honest bob jenrick is
1:47:17
there. Um, but they're very different from, and nothing like the Tories
1:47:24
And that is why I actually find myself listening to that speech from Cammy Baden and wondering
1:47:29
whether, NPC is the correct phrase, a non-player character. It's any character, um
1:47:35
that is, is it computer controlled? So, no, it's not. It's not
1:47:42
It, so, it's something that's not controlled by you and also plays no role in the story, I think
1:47:47
an NPC. I probably shouldn't have gone down this road. Sometimes allegories come back to bite you on the bum
1:47:54
But, is it actually a waste of time to talk about the Tories
1:48:03
There's a story in the news today that I think is very significant to this thesis
1:48:06
although I didn't realise at the time when I cut it out of the newspaper. I read it a couple of times
1:48:12
Some of the people that Kemi Badenot has promoted to the House of Lords
1:48:16
would, even by the standards of the House of Lords post Boris Johnson
1:48:21
would bring the institution into disrepute if it was possible to bring elements of it
1:48:26
any further into disrepute. Ian Botham was put in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson
1:48:32
but Cammie Badenot went one better and put Toby Young in there. And I think Sharon Davies, the former swimmer
1:48:39
So the kind of people she's put into the House of Lords are of questionable merit
1:48:44
but she's apparently furious about plans to give a knighthood not even a seat in the house of lords
1:48:50
to david gawk who was expelled from the party for opposing boris johnson's brexit plans and
1:48:56
therefore has been proved absolutely right about everything one of 20 rebel mps kicked out of the
1:49:01
party in 2019 after johnson threatened a no-deal departure from the european union which would of
1:49:07
course have been even worse than the pathetic deal he managed to cobble together which was arguably
1:49:12
among the best available deals because the whole project was such a stupid thing anyway
1:49:17
He's led a sentencing review looking at prison overcrowding and similar, and it is reported that he's been recommended for a knighthood by Sir Keir Starmer
1:49:26
about which Kemi Badenoch is reportedly furious. And you sort of have to wonder why
1:49:34
The only thing you could say about David Gork in the context of conservatism is that he is one of the last people on the planet
1:49:40
that you'd imagine defecting to reform. Pretty much everybody in her cabinet
1:49:46
you could imagine defecting to reform. And some of them will try if they haven't already
1:49:50
as the writing on the wall gets ever thicker, ever clearer. So a classic conservative, a one-nation conservative
1:49:59
being rewarded for public service by a prime minister is being opposed by Kemi Badanow
1:50:07
It's not a big story, this. But it has been reported that Bedienoc is absolutely livid at the award, which really speaks to the fact that the Conservative Party in its current form, in its current form, serves no purpose whatsoever
1:50:30
sometimes when i find myself contemplating the possibility of doing a phone-in
1:50:36
contingent upon a question that begins what's the point of and then you can add anything i used to
1:50:43
write a little um paragraph every week for the daily express a million years ago and you'd pick
1:50:48
a celebrity it was quite cruel i suppose in retrospect what's the point of uh noel edmunds
1:50:54
What's the point of, Keith? What's the point? And you just do a funny little thing
1:50:59
But I've always thought it's a bit early doors to what's the point of the Conservative Party
1:51:05
Farage is talking as if he has replaced it. Farage is not an honest man
1:51:09
so he is claiming that he has destroyed it or obliterated it. He hasn't
1:51:13
He's just sent Robert Jenrick up a stepladder to unscrew the sign above the door
1:51:19
while 30p Lee looks on giving largely useless advice. And then he's handed Honest Bob Jenrick a new sign
1:51:27
which he's screwed above the door and it says Reform UK. So all they've done is climb up their stepladder
1:51:32
remove the words Conservatives from above the door and replace it with a sign that says Reform UK
1:51:38
And of course they can only do that because people like David Gork and Dominic Grieve
1:51:44
and Anna Soubry and Rory Stewart and various and Philip Hammond and many others
1:51:48
had already been chucked out of the company. They wouldn't have been able to do it
1:51:52
if people like David Gork and Anna Soubry and Rory Stewart and Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke
1:51:57
if they'd still been in the Conservative Party, they would have kicked away Honest Bob's stepladder
1:52:03
They wouldn't have let them climb up that stepladder and replace Conservative with reform
1:52:08
So, it's not a destruction of the Tory party or an obliteration
1:52:12
If you don't believe me, follow the money. Look at the people who've given it. Do you know who gave a million quid to Boris Johnson
1:52:18
No questions asked after he left Downing Street in disgrace. The Thai billionaire that just gave five million quid to Nigel Farage that Nigel Farage was desperate to keep secret So follow the money This is not a destruction of the Tory party This is a replace it just a rebranding of the Tory party
1:52:38
So, and this is probably something, it's a very short list of things on which
1:52:44
Nigel Farage and myself would agree. Unfortunately, I'll never be able to ask him
1:52:47
because he'll never have the guts to come into this studio. But I think he's right
1:52:53
I think the Tory party have been absolutely, and these results could be among the final nails
1:53:00
in the coffin of the traditional Conservative party. What are they for
1:53:07
0345 6060 973. They're not dead beyond all hope of resuscitation, but if she is attacking and condemning characters like David Gork
1:53:23
what are they for? I mean, what's Priti Patel at the moment
1:53:28
Shadow Foreign Secretary? She's absolutely reformed. She might as well be signed up with reform
1:53:35
What does reform offer that Priti Patel doesn't agree with? Who could get a cigarette paper
1:53:40
between what she did in the Home Office and what Suella Braverman did? All of the rhetoric, all of the policies
1:53:47
What on earth is the modern, the current Conservative Party for? oh, whoo
1:53:56
That feels like a moment, doesn't it? I'm watching Kemi Bader-Knot's speech
1:54:01
and I'm thinking NPC. I'm thinking she's one of the animated characters
1:54:06
that just walks up and down the pavement outside the bank while the person playing the game is robbing the bank
1:54:13
and the computer-controlled characters are shooting at him. She's not even one of those
1:54:17
She's just a bystander walking up and down the pavement outside the computerised bank
1:54:23
I'm right, aren't I? Aren't I? Tell me I'm not, 03456060973. Tell me I am, 03456060973
1:54:35
But most importantly of all, tell me what it means. This is not a defeat or a destruction
1:54:44
or even a replacement of the Conservative Party. It's just a complete rebranding
1:54:50
bankrolled and sponsored by traditional Tory supporters. They kind of knew that after Partygate
1:54:59
the brand... I'm thinking of Gerald Ratner now. So Boris Johnson is the Gerald Ratner of conservative politics
1:55:07
Gerald Ratner, if you don't know, was a jeweller who made an epic mistake in describing one of his own products
1:55:12
in the most profane and derogatory of terms. And the business fell apart in his hands
1:55:18
You can't essentially insult your customers by describing the product as rubbish
1:55:25
Johnson has damaged the tool rebrand so completely that they've decided they can't just revivify, resurrect
1:55:32
They need to completely rebrand. And that's what I think has happened
1:55:40
Crikey. I never know whether to be worried or excited when I have thoughts and insights like this
1:55:45
if it counts as an insight, live on the radio, because I could have made a complete mug of myself
1:55:49
as you'll point out in the very forced call to the station, or you could be going, um, flipping heck
1:55:56
Is the oldest political party in this country finished? 0345 6060 973
1:56:04
If you prefer, what is the point of Kemi Badenoch's Conservatives? A sort of one-nation, centrist Tory party
1:56:12
led by somebody like a latter-day Kenneth Clark, they could be doing quite well, I think, at the moment
1:56:19
because they'd be taking votes from Labour and they'd probably be taking votes from reform, I'm not sure
1:56:25
What is the point of Kemi Bader-Kontz's Conservative Party? And do you think it's possible
1:56:30
that the oldest political party in the world, did I read once
1:56:35
is it the oldest political party in the world, is over and done with
1:56:40
Hit the numbers now. you will get through. James O'Brien on LBC
1:56:46
26 minutes after 12. I mean, it's both a historical question and a very current one
1:56:52
By historical, I mean actually forward-looking, not backwards-looking. There may well be a point to Kemi-Badenhock's party
1:56:58
but it won't be the point that the Conservative Party has had almost since its inception
1:57:02
which is to pursue government, to pursue Downing Street, or they could perhaps be completely over and done with
1:57:10
And if they are, what would that mean? What would that mean
1:57:15
Gary's in Reading. Gary, what made you pick up the phone? Hi, James
1:57:19
First time I've actually spoken to you, which is a pleasure because you are the master of the airwaves
1:57:25
You're very kind. I don't quite like that phrase, but it will never stick. Carry on, Gary
1:57:30
Right. My first experience at the Tory party was when my late nan was a teller in Watford
1:57:39
trying to get Tristan Geryl Jones, one of the up-and-coming Tories of the time
1:57:47
Do you know, you say that name, and my brain, because it's a weird thing, it goes, Foreign Office Minister
1:57:51
I don't even know if that's true, but it must be something about the way the words
1:57:57
Foreign Office Minister Tristan Geryl Jones. I may be wrong. Anyway, carry on, carry on
1:58:01
Yeah, but the Tory party was destroyed under Boris Johnson. I mean, now, if you were interested in voting
1:58:09
for one-nation Toryism, you would vote Liberal Democrat. Do you think? Yeah, so I said that when the last election came round
1:58:21
the Liberals would actually hoover up a lot of more Liberal-minded Tories
1:58:27
Yes. And that's why they picked up so many seats, I believe
1:58:31
You must be right, actually. And the reason I looked at it like that
1:58:36
is because when the Brexit thing happened and you had all the Marc Francois
1:58:44
and madman Steve Baker and, you know, all those guys... Brexit hard man. Don't be mean
1:58:50
Brexit hard man Steve Baker. Oh, sorry. No, madman. You can't say madman. He's a Brexit hard man
1:58:55
He's not madman. Well, I heard him on Ian Dale's show the other night
1:59:00
on cross-question, and he still believes that he's got it right, but we're not talking about that
1:59:05
No. I just believe that Boris Johnson instigated that move to the right
1:59:13
and obviously he supported Farage in his Brexit dreams, and now really all those people that were at the front of that
1:59:23
are moving to reform. So it was on the cards. When you see it, you can't unsee it, can you
1:59:29
When you see it, you can't unsee it, because there's no way they're ever going to admit that they were wrong
1:59:34
So what can they do? No. What can they do? So, move to the party that thinks they're right
1:59:38
Yeah, or that lets them carry on pretending that they're right. So, because they got Johnson into Downing Street
1:59:44
So, whether you want to talk about the establishment or the media owners
1:59:48
or whether you want to talk about the... I've just got some breaking news for you
1:59:52
Welsh Labour's official position is now that they won't be forming the next Welsh government
1:59:57
I don't think there's any massive surprises there, but it is definitely... ...breaking news that Labour is now conceding that point
2:00:03
So we will find out later today who is likely to be forming the next Labour government
2:00:09
Most money would say Plaid Cymru. But once you see it, you can't unsee it
2:00:14
The people that... The establishment, if you like, that massively overused but still relevant phrase
2:00:21
the Conservative Party was always the party of the establishment. But the establishment realised that the Conservative Party brand
2:00:28
was now damaged beyond all recognition. So they need to find a new vehicle up Pops Nigel Farage
2:00:35
having previously pledged to retire from politics forever, or indeed to leave the country if Brexit went badly
2:00:41
And now here he is. And they're gathering to that particular May poll with alacrity
2:00:47
So where does that leave the Conservative Party, Gary? Where does that leave Kemi Badenoch's Conservative Party
2:00:52
I would say that she's irrelevant. And we're going to see more defections
2:00:57
whether Nigel Farage says there was a cut-off point or not. I'm still waiting for the big Labour name
2:01:03
He said there was going to be a big Labour name, didn't he? No, no. He did, he did, he did
2:01:08
He did. I know he did, but I don't think it's going to happen, to be honest. You mean he was being dishonest
2:01:13
Surely not. Whatever now. Spannan Manning! Yes, no chance. No, I was just going to say that the one reform councillor in Reading
2:01:22
lost his seat last night, so we haven't got... Unfortunately, I'd just like to figure it out for everybody that actually made sure that we didn't get a reform councillor because we don't want them in Reading
2:01:35
Well, you use we in the royal sense, I think, Gary, but yours is a voice that needs to be heard on the UK media and sadly doesn't get heard anywhere near as much as some of the contradictory voices
2:01:47
This is a really interesting moment for me. I did an A-level in politics
2:01:51
I didn't really take much interest in it subsequently until I washed up here
2:01:56
But that idea that the Conservative Party is done and done for
2:02:00
not replaced or destroyed, simply rebranded as Reform UK. And what on earth, where does that leave Cami Bader-Knot
2:02:11
Which leads to the slightly unprofessional question of what is the point of Cami Bader-Knot's Conservative Party
2:02:17
It's 1232. James O'Brien on LBC. 12.35 is the time. Here's a very important text that's come in from Andy
2:02:26
How was the penguin, James? He writes. And the answer is not bad, actually
2:02:33
There's a thing, isn't there? Let me just check. I don't want to malign penguins. I'm talking about the chocolate bar
2:02:37
not the seabird or mammal or whatever it is. Is it? Hang on
2:02:43
Just bear with me a moment. Chocolate and mint flavour. Cream-filled biscuit
2:02:47
Yeah. So it's not chocolate anymore, is it, on a penguin? on a penguin any more than it is on a club
2:02:54
And I haven't been particularly bothered by that. But if it's minty
2:02:59
then it covers up the fact that there's hardly any cocoa in the chocolate coating, chocolate-flavoured coating
2:03:04
So the mint in a mint penguin is really nicely judged, and it means that the whole experience of eating it is quite pleasant
2:03:15
Whereas if it was just a chocolate penguin, do you ever just have plain penguins, Keith
2:03:19
Two a day he's on now, Keith. He's come down from 30. Two penguins a day
2:03:24
P-p-p-pick up a habit. And the mint one is much nicer, surely
2:03:28
It's a plate, so if it was just chocolate, I'll have a chocolate one on Monday. And I'll let you know
2:03:33
I'll report back. But I needed to tell Andy and many other people that. And also, did my tummy stop rumbling
2:03:39
Someone wasn't listening. Rob, what's the joke on the packet, James? Easy
2:03:45
What? You can listen back on the app, actually. You can rewind. I'm not telling you again
2:03:48
you can rewind it on Global Player or the LBC app. 12.36 is the time
2:03:52
Bit of a moment, this. Listening to Farage Wang on this morning and then listening to Kemi Badenot pretend that she won
2:04:00
He's done them, hasn't he? Well, not him, but his backers have moved their money
2:04:04
from the Tories to Reform and they've taken down the sign above the store
2:04:09
and replaced the Conservative logo with the Reform logo. And that is now the party that will be dedicated
2:04:14
to protecting and promoting wealth while persuading people who haven't got any to use their political power to promote the interests of people like Christopher Hartborn
2:04:25
the Thailand-based billionaire who has given £5 million privately and secretly to Nigel Farage
2:04:32
Sean's in Manchester. Sean, what do you think? Yes, good morning to you. I think you're leaning a little bit too hard on Kemi
2:04:38
I mean, she's not my favourite choice, even though I'm a Conservative member. I would have gone for Chris Philip personally
2:04:43
But I think that... That's something you don't hear every day. the reason why I say this
2:04:48
is also with the Conservatives as well they want to increase the state pension, they want a lower benefit
2:04:54
cap, they want to build more jobs than ever before campaigning's over Sean, that was done
2:05:00
and done with yesterday, what is the point of the party today
2:05:04
I mean there's different ways of looking at it isn't there? Well just tell me how you look at it
2:05:08
so why I voted originally for the Conservatives is because of where it goes back to the root cause of the Conservatives
2:05:14
in a sense, I mean even Churchill was conservative, I don't know if you know that, but the traditions of being a conservative..
2:05:19
God, really? What, Winston Churchill? Winston Churchill was conservative. A conserv... wow! Good grief! Anything else? Any other little nods that I need
2:05:28
He's part of the spirit of the country, in the sense of, you know, the good, stiff-up-a-lip kind of, but being firm, fair, and being conservative means..
2:05:37
Yeah, but this is all the things that reform claims to be now. I mean, reform are too right, not too right-wing, and conservatives aren't like that
2:05:46
I mean, we've had some bad-uns in our innocence of, that have moved on from the party
2:05:50
but I do think we are being harshly criticised for the times of Boris Johnson era But he was put in power by conservative voters And then all had And then they got rid of They got rid of Goodness knows how many 20 MPs almost all of whom
2:06:05
were worth 10 Boris Johnsons. And Kemi Badenoch is still spitting nails
2:06:10
about the idea of one of them getting a knighthood. So, I mean, however hard you try
2:06:14
and, you know, bang together the heels of your ruby slippers, Kemi Badenoch is still part of the problem
2:06:21
that you're blaming for the demise of the entire party. She's not the solution or the answer to it
2:06:25
She's the heiress. No, I mean, that's one... I mean, you're obviously Labour thinking
2:06:31
but at the same time, you've got to understand one thing. With the Conservative..
2:06:35
That Winston Churchill was a Conservative. Crikey, eh? We're at 271 points
2:06:41
I don't know if you've looked... We're second behind reform, so we're not doing too bad
2:06:44
We've outdone Labour. What's he talking about? I mean, my biggest problem... My biggest problem is Exeter, where they're winning with the Greens
2:06:50
They've taken over the Labour Council. And you might say, why are you mentioning Exeter
2:06:53
because, I mean, I'm thinking of moving in a couple of months, but it's a concern
2:06:58
No, I'm not thinking that at all. I'm thinking this guy's not going to address any of the points that I'm making
2:07:02
Okay, what do you want me to... Why is Cammie Bader not resisting David Gork getting a knighthood
2:07:08
if she is somehow the solution or the reversal of the mess that Boris Johnson made
2:07:16
Because we are in a difficult... We're all in a difficult position every party at the moment
2:07:20
That doesn't mean anything, Sean. and that's just words in a strange order
2:07:24
I mean, I'm not going to try and talk in an MP kind of speech, but what I'm trying to say is that we need more..
2:07:30
Yeah, the backing is a big trouble. Obviously, you just mentioned the billionaires..
2:07:33
I'm talking about David Gawke being put up for a knighthood because of his public service for the Home Office
2:07:40
in pursuit of finding solutions to prison overcrowding, various other problems caused by 14 years of Tory government
2:07:47
and Kemi Badenok, who you are telling my listeners, is an alternative to and a solution for the problems created by Boris Johnson
2:07:57
is livid about the idea of him getting a knighthood. So what exactly is it she's rejecting from the past
2:08:03
Does she ever slagged off Boris Johnson? I think she's mentioned a few things about Boris in the past
2:08:08
I'm not slagging off, but I think Boris did wrong in the COVID times
2:08:12
I'm not asking what you think. I'm asking what she thinks, because you're telling me that she is a brave new start, and I want some evidence
2:08:19
I said at the start of this conversation, I'm not the biggest fan of Cammy at the moment. I think we could have Chris Phillips as my personal choice
2:08:24
His name is Philp. You've called him Philip and Phillips now. Some of my listeners are going to think
2:08:28
that you're not contributing to this programme in good faith. Philp, sorry, Philp. No, that's quite all right
2:08:32
In fact, you remind me, full disclosure this week, is with Philippa Perry. I'll be playing you a clip of that shortly
2:08:37
So you're not going to really answer any of my questions, which is fine, because that's the nature of British politics these days
2:08:42
You just will always be a Conservative. You can't conceive of being anything else
2:08:45
even though Honest Bob Jenrick has just taken the sign down from above the store
2:08:50
and replaced it with a big picture of Nigel Farage. I think we're firm and fair, and in fact, even Ian Dale's firm and fair
2:08:55
You're proving my point. Firm and fair. Ian Dale's firm and fair, conservative
2:08:59
He's conservative through and through, and I'm conservative through and through. It's as simple as that
2:09:03
Well, I mean, it is definitely as simple as that, but you've said, respectfully, Sean, absolutely nothing
2:09:09
and you've taken five minutes to say it. Firm and fair. Firm and fair
2:09:14
Thank you. Absolutely. No, good luck to you. Are you on the candidates list, or are you just hoping to be
2:09:20
I'm a supporter, I'll say that. Yes, I pay each month. I'm a supporter. Oh, I know
2:09:24
And I'm sure you're a Labour supporter. Not really. I mean, certainly not under the last leader
2:09:28
but obviously Keir Starmer is by far the least bad option that is currently available
2:09:32
We're just, I guess, in the business of looking at evidence or not looking at evidence
2:09:38
and you are very much in the latter camp. Who do you think will be next to defect
2:09:43
Defect? which party. I don't think one conservative problem. Oh, never mind. Matt's in
2:09:48
Northampton. Matt, what would you like to say? Good afternoon. Hello, Matthew. How are you doing
2:09:52
Very well indeed. I think they're dead for a generation now. I think David Cameron's big gamble..
2:09:58
But they're firm and fair, Matt. They're firm and fair. They used to be strong and stable
2:10:02
but now they're firm and fair. I think that's just the words they use
2:10:06
but, I mean, his big gamble was to put the Brexit whole thing to bed by giving
2:10:10
them the option, and ever since then, all you've ever had is infighting, defection and denial of reality
2:10:17
And they've got rid of anyone that would refuse that and say it was a bad idea
2:10:21
Now you're just left with the dregs. Oh, they've got Chris Phelps. I mean, you know, that tells you all, doesn't it
2:10:30
I'm going to get shot for that. I like James Cleverley. Do you know why I like James Cleverley
2:10:35
Because I've loved him, met him. I avoid politicians like the plague
2:10:39
If I meet them only in a studio, that's fine. I can go toe to toe
2:10:44
But I met him in a green room. I think we were doing the one show together. And I liked him
2:10:49
And that is a cut. I hate it when I like these people. I don't like... I know
2:10:53
But so cleverly is not what you describe. And I know he did that grim joke about his wife
2:10:58
And there's no but. It was unforgivable. But it's not exactly a resignation offence or a hanging offence
2:11:04
It's between him and his wife in many ways. but they're not all absolutely irredeemably terrible
2:11:11
No, but while they're still denying reality, the party is never going to recover
2:11:16
And I think I can link this to your first hour. Go on
2:11:21
I think it's where Labour are going to struggle as well. You can't just deny reality. You just can't
2:11:26
What reality are they denying? Well, it wasn't a bad idea. Oh, you're going back to Brexit
2:11:33
Yeah, yeah. Well, they're moving a bit on that, aren't they? They're moving not enough
2:11:37
Too little, too late for some people. Exactly. Good God, guess who's just popped up on the telly
2:11:42
It's not James Cleverley. No? Chris Hill. No? Er... Bernard Manning. God, he's got it in one
2:11:52
Jacob Rees-Mogg! No it not He been dead for years Jacob Rees is on the telly Oh my goodness I haven seen him for years Why have they got him out of the crypt I try to avoid him Well I mean you been doing very well but one chapter I saw the haunted pencil
2:12:07
It's back on your screens. It's like, I don't know, 2017 all over again
2:12:12
Why only a generation? What does resurrection look like? Because reform are going to stay on the far right, so the gap on the right, the middle right, is still going to be there
2:12:20
However, poorly Keir Starmer tries to nibble away at it. I think because their fingerprints are all over it
2:12:26
you need a generation to forget what they've done. So that either means we rejoin in, what, 10, 20, 30 years
2:12:33
or enough people have passed on that would be the traditional, like, conservative voters, and you're left with a generation
2:12:39
If you're in the business of sponsoring governments like other people sponsor Formula One teams
2:12:45
you're not going to wait for a generation. You need to get somebody else into that space
2:12:48
and you need to get them in as soon as possible. Here's five million quid. Or indeed, 12 million quid for the party
2:12:55
but five million quid for the individual. We'll try and keep that second bit secret
2:12:59
And if it comes out, we'll claim that the real problem here is the people who've revealed the story
2:13:04
rather than the people who are in it. Lovely work, Matt. Particularly the Bernard Banning comment
2:13:09
God, Jacob Rees-Mogg. Who'd have thunk it? James O'Brien on LBC. I can tell this is going to become..
2:13:17
I mean, I've been nibbling at the edges of it for a while, but this is going to become one of my returning themes, isn't it
2:13:24
I know you probably worked it out before I did, but it's the money that I missed
2:13:30
It's the money. Why is all the money going there? It's because they don't believe in anything except money
2:13:35
They don't believe in anything except money. They don't believe in, you know, the legacy of Margaret Thatcher
2:13:40
or the legacy of Winston Churchill. They just believe in money. so if you only believe in money and you want your government to be dedicated to making you more money
2:13:49
to the exclusion and quite possibly the exploitation of everybody else in the country
2:13:53
then you need you need a new vehicle you need a new brand you need a new party so let's talk to
2:14:00
nigel and see if we can tempt him to change his mind about retiring or emigrating in the event of
2:14:04
brexit being brilliant he's probably going to need a few quid because he was planning on going on the
2:14:08
Donald Trump Support Act tour in the United States of America, which is incredibly
2:14:12
lucrative. So we need to cobble together quite a few quid for him. I wonder if the donor that we've already
2:14:18
heard about is the only person that has privately passed huge sums of money. Just a
2:14:22
question. I'm only asking questions. But anyway, we need to persuade him to come back, because he's the only person
2:14:28
that can keep the ghost of Brexit animated. He's the only person that can keep the Boris Johnson
2:14:34
blunderbuss loaded. And here he is. And I tell you what, it's money well spent, isn't it, looking at the results today
2:14:42
But where on earth does it leave Kemi Bader not? By the way, in second place at the moment, in the number of seats secured so far
2:14:49
are the Liberal Democrats, Davies Liberal Democrats. Again, in some ways, I mean, up 32, but from an already high start
2:14:59
Conservatives down 192, but from an already very low start. So that's an appalling result for Cammy Badenot
2:15:07
who is currently in the middle of her third lap of honour, and arguably not quite as bad, but still bloody awful for the Labour Party
2:15:13
who are down 287 from a historic high. Trevor is in Birmingham. Trevor, what would you like to say
2:15:21
Hi, James. First-time caller. Welcome. What I've got to say is that, obviously, Farage should be the ambassador to America
2:15:31
that's what he reckons anyway and I'm only saying that because you've just mentioned him
2:15:35
go on Kemi Badenoch is going to put a positive spin on anything whatsoever
2:15:41
that she comes out with because she's got nothing to lose has she
2:15:46
unfortunately for Kirstama it was on to a loser anyway if they lost to council
2:15:53
then he was seen as a loser because of the way it's been
2:15:59
he's been portrayed in the right-wing media, but also media in general
2:16:05
have shown him up to be what they see as a weak leader
2:16:10
even though he's probably got a lot more dignity than most of the other leaders of the other political parties put together
2:16:18
Baden-Hack is going to put a positive spin because her losses, or their losses, the Tory losses, are bad
2:16:27
but it's going to look like nothing in comparison to Labour because Labour's in power
2:16:33
Labour's lost a lot of the populist votes that they had before
2:16:38
and a lot of traditional supporters of Labour have looked elsewhere just as they did when the so-called Red Wall came down
2:16:48
when I think it was Johnson that was in power at the time or Johnson of course, general election
2:16:52
The Red Wall came down. people voted Tory for the, you know, many of them
2:16:58
for the first time ever and now what they've done is they've gone to reform Labour
2:17:06
are seen as certainly Kirsten is portrayed as being this fool at number
2:17:13
10 and he's not So what is the I mean, I agree with
2:17:19
much of what you've said. So Bader not will survive but the Tory party will
2:17:22
become an irrelevant rump. I think what they'll do is... And then it will come
2:17:26
back, but I don't, I mean, or will it? I don't know. I think
2:17:30
that they will come back. I think that certainly those that vote
2:17:38
to the right of centre that were traditionally Tory will always vote Tory
2:17:43
You're always going to get, like the caller that was on a few months ago, they're always going to vote Tory. And Jacob
2:17:48
Rees-Mogg as well. I mean, for all his faults, I don't think Jacob Rees could somehow his DNA would not permit him to defect to reform even though you can put a cigarette paper between what they believe or stand for I would say James it probably depends who pulling the purse strings there I disagree with Jacob Rees
2:18:04
I don't think this is a principle necessarily. It's a stubbornness, but it's sometimes hard to tell the difference
2:18:09
I don't think he would do a thingamy, a defection, if his life depended on it
2:18:15
I think he's just incapable of doing so. Yeah, you're probably right on that
2:18:20
I mean, he's, well, you know, re-smug is re-smug, isn't he? Yes
2:18:25
I feel that Baden-Occord, well, Survivor, she'll come out spinning it as
2:18:32
I'm a strong leader, look what we've done, blah, blah, blah. Well, she is
2:18:36
I mean, she is literally doing a thing to me, a lap of honour
2:18:40
As you know, James, she's the same person that goes in front of a mirror
2:18:45
before she gives a speech or anything and tells herself how good she is
2:18:49
So, you know. And never does any gaffs. I don't know. I'm going to return to this topic, I think
2:18:55
in the coming weeks and months, although possibly not for a while, given that the political waters will now calm for a few..
2:19:04
Well, calm as they can be. For the avoidance of doubt, if you're just joining us
2:19:08
disaster for Labour, disaster for the Tories, incredible success for Reform UK
2:19:13
and so far, very, very, very creditable performance for the Liberal Democrats
2:19:18
later results will probably deliver quite a lot of good news for the Green Party as well
2:19:24
I forgot, you're right, that Winston Churchill was also a Liberal MP. I was going to hit that last caller, the Chris Philp fan over the head with the news
2:19:32
But anyway, you can't remember everything. Little prediction for you. I don't think you'll be hearing from an awful lot of the newly elected Reform UK councillors
2:19:41
I suspect that if the party is running anything like a professional operation
2:19:45
they will be muzzled because of the risk of them saying something
2:19:49
when a microphone is put in front of them. So if you're in Barnsley or anywhere else in the country
2:19:55
and you're wondering about why you're not hearing anything from your recently elected local politicians
2:20:01
that, I suspect, will be the reason. And Riley's Reform Roundup, or whatever we decide to call it
2:20:06
moving forward is going to be probably the most active and heavily subscribed part of this programme moving forward
2:20:13
um my guest on full disclosure this week is philippa perry she is as you probably know a
2:20:19
psychotherapist and um lastly an agony aunt just a brilliant writer who's um addressed some of the
2:20:25
issues that i find absolutely fascinating so um i was very very pleased to invite her into the studio
2:20:31
for full disclosure and um just glancing at the clock we haven't got time to play the long clip
2:20:36
which is about when she went to work in mcdonald's that's a fascinating and brilliant story so have a
2:20:40
little listen to this bit instead you begin volunteering with the samaritans as well which
2:20:45
yeah yeah i did associate yeah that was i think what that was about was i told myself it was
2:20:54
because you know i've had quite a good life i've had quite a lot of luck i want to put something
2:20:59
back into society but actually when i got there i really discovered what it was about which is i
2:21:05
wanted to make sure or I wanted to find out whether it was safe to explore feelings because
2:21:10
of that stiff upper lip background I thought it wasn't safe to explore feelings you know I didn't
2:21:17
really trust that it was and what I found out there by listening to people that not only was
2:21:22
it safe it was beneficial it actually saved lives when you put your inchoate miserable feelings
2:21:29
into words you can take ownership of the feelings you can you can control the feelings rather than
2:21:39
have them control you because you've got words for the feelings and i learned that through
2:21:44
listening to people at the samaritans and then then i really did get the bug and i thought okay
2:21:50
um i'm going to have some therapy right and so i had some therapy and i think that's when i began
2:21:56
to get to know myself really properly. And that was aged about 28, 29
2:22:02
And there's a kindness to yourself involved in that. For the first time, giving us or not
2:22:08
I think that came a bit later. I tell you where the kindness came from
2:22:14
And that was getting to know Grayson. Grayson was, you know, funny, very bright
2:22:20
And he was kind. Coming up to 12.59, Philippa Perry on full disclosure
2:22:26
this week. I've got, um, I've no idea whether her time working in
2:22:30
McDonald's made her work in class, and I do not understand why you're asking me that question
2:22:34
Um, well, over to Sheila Fogarty shortly, that's it from me for
2:22:38
another day. Let me take a moment, if I can, to mark the passing of an
2:22:42
well, not the passing, the moving on, good lord, of an honoured colleague, Rebecca Morrison
2:22:46
who's been an absolute joy to have around and who you may have spoken to on occasion
2:22:50
if you have been, uh, unwise enough to ring into this programme, but
2:22:54
Rebecca has mastered the art of assistant producing and therefore is moving on to producing
2:23:01
and we will miss her enormously. Although, you know, you can't hold on to these people
2:23:07
The better they are, the harder they are to hold on to. We have been here a while, actually
2:23:13
It won't necessarily last. Thank you, Keith, as well. Did you give her a penguin? Good
2:23:18
Plenty more to come on LBC with these election results coming in. In fact, they are now likely to pick up pace
2:23:23
or they are scheduled and almost certain to pick up pace as Sheila and then Tom and later Andrew Ma and Ian Dale
2:23:28
who's standing in for Rachel Johnson today from 7, get behind the microphone. If you missed any of today's show
2:23:33
you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBC app, where you can also stay up to date
2:23:38
with all the latest news, videos and opinions. You can listen to a range of podcasts
2:23:43
including James O'Brien Daily and Full Disclosure. So download the official LBC app for free
2:23:48
from your app store now. Coming up at 4 on LBC, it's Tom Swarbrick. But now, it's time for Sheila Ferguson

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