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Now that Andy Burham has been sworn into Parliament, Shelagh Fogarty poses the question: 'Should there now be a general election?' 00:00 | Reform MP Richard Tice points out that Andy Burnham was demanding a general election four years ago, so believes one should be called now. 04:13 | Labour's Chris Curtis wants his party to stay in power to 'deliver the change that they promised'. 06:50 | Lord Hutton tells Shelagh that it would be 'a good idea' to hold a leadership contest, and this would give Burnham a stronger mandate. 11:25 | Caller Tamara can't wait to get Labour out, and is demanding a general election. 13:30 | Caller James spells out what would have to change before there is a need for an election. 14:34 | Andy is livid. He hopes that Labour 'tear themselves apart' holding a party leadership contest. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #Generalelection #shelaghfogarty #LBC #keirstarmer #labour #andyburnham #ukpolitics #uknews #debate #primeminister LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
I'm joined already actually, pleased to say, by Richard Tice, Deputy Leader of Reform UK and MP for Boston and Skegness
0:07
Good afternoon to you. Good afternoon. You want a general election? Yes, we do. I mean, we're delighted that Starmer has done the right thing and resigned
0:17
And the idea that someone that most of the country don't know at all can sort of flounce into Parliament
0:24
on the back of 25,000 votes and then claimed to be coronated as Prime Minister
0:31
and to pursue what's likely to be a very different policy agenda
0:35
is outrageous. It's anti-democratic. And this is the same Andy Burnham that four years ago
0:42
when the Tory party was in a sort of leadership crisis, was also tweeting out merrily
0:47
general election now, we need a general election. So if he's consistent to his values and his integrity
0:52
which I'm sure he would claim to be, then he should do the right thing. And if he is coronated, then call a general election
0:59
and people can have their say. I mean, you do accept, don't you
1:04
that the system that we have of government allows for this. You might not like it, and I know plenty of people who don't like it
1:11
not necessarily politicians and commentators, but just ordinary people I talk to who just don't like it at all
1:17
Yes, you're right. The system does allow for this. That's why the Conservative Party had two changes
1:22
with no reference to the British people. But when you've got people like Angela Rayner
1:27
people like Andy Burnham and many other senior Labour figures who were screaming for a general election four years ago
1:33
I just think he needs to do the right thing, particularly as, I mean, two-thirds of the parliamentary Labour party
1:39
basically have no idea who he is. They haven't worked with him
1:43
They haven't sat with him in the Commons. And, as I say, the country has no idea what his policies are
1:49
what's his views on the economy, on defence, on foreign policy, on net zero, on stopping the boats
1:55
You know, he seemed to flip-flop around on rejoin the EU or not, flip-flop around on whether or not men should go into female spaces
2:02
and on and on the list of flip-flops and U-turns goes. I think it's legitimate
2:08
I mean, this was a criticism that was levelled at your party and at Nigel Farage for some time, wasn't it
2:13
About where's your policy platform? You can't just say put us into government just because everybody's
2:18
you know, everybody knows Nigel Farage. Love him or love him. We've never said that. We had a distinct contract at the last election
2:26
We've been putting out policies in recent months. And of course, if there's a general election, like every other political party
2:32
we'll have a clear manifesto that sets out our policies in the main on the whole range of issues
2:40
So will he. So you can't set out yours yet, can you? But what I'm saying is, if he wants to have an election, great, then set out your policies
2:48
What he can't do is just take the crown and sort of drift off, drift on, impose a very, very punitive tax raising budget in November, which he's likely to have to do based on the significant borrowing surpluses and excess over forecast that we saw last week, without, you know, without actually the consent of the people
3:10
Keir Starmer, still Prime Minister, he said after the Makerfield result that you, Reform, have peaked
3:19
Well, look, at the end of the day, Andy Burnham won that by-election
3:23
One of the reasons was because people were so determined to get Keir Starmer out
3:29
And we had Reform voters who voted for us and the locals saying, yes, we voted Reform to get Starmer out
3:34
Now we're going to vote for Burnham to guarantee to get Starmer out. and their wishes have been essentially satisfied
3:42
As I say we got to push on move on and the idea that he can just assume a coronation when no one knows what he stands for is he going to take the party harder
3:53
He can tell us if he becomes Prime Minister. He can tell us in a general election
3:56
Well, he might argue, he doesn't. He can tell you a general election. If he wants to completely change the policies, go for the left, for example
4:04
where's the democratic consent to that, Sheila? Well, we vote for MPs and we vote for parties, don't we, in this system
4:10
On the basis of a manifesto put forward by the leader at the time
4:14
If there isn't anyone stepping forward to contest, is it your view that the Labour system, the three-week system
4:23
that takes us up to pretty much the middle of July, will happen anyway? Well, I think that's probably what is going to happen
4:31
I mean, when the nominations open, if we get to the end of that period of time
4:35
and there are no other nominations, then that one single person will clearly become automatically leader of the Labour Party at that point
4:43
And I would imagine that very shortly thereafter, that person will become the Prime Minister
4:49
So I don't think we'll be waiting until September. What do you want? A contest? A coronation
4:55
Which is what people are expecting, I think, today? Or a general election? What do you think should happen next
5:01
well i have said publicly sheila i think it would be a good idea uh to have a contest and i think we
5:09
can do that within a very short period of time and i think it will be conducted pretty civilly
5:14
and i think that'll be healthy for the labor party and and the government and i think ultimately the
5:19
country it's not a an alternative to the legitimacy that comes from winning a general election of
5:26
course not. Everybody would allow to have a good look at what the candidates are saying and offering
5:33
But that's entirely in the gift of the Parliamentary Labour Party in the Commons, isn't it? If they
5:37
decide really to get behind only one candidate, then there isn't going to be an election
5:41
And then that candidate, as I said, will become the Prime Minister very shortly when the nominations close. But I think whether we have a general election or not, I mean, that's a
5:50
point for arguing. I mean, you can see the strength of the argument that says
5:54
OK, let's have a general election. And I do understand that. But I think it's all about
5:58
whether the new leader respects the mandate that Keir Starmer won in 2024. If he respects that
6:03
mandate, then I don't think there's any need for a general election. If he wants to depart from
6:09
that mandate in a significant and serious way, then that's a different story. Well, I've had
6:13
callers today suggesting that Keir Starmer himself departed from that mandate and dropped things or
6:18
brought things in that were never part of it. What do you say to that? well i think a mandate can never be sort of absolute sort of bible for everything you're
6:28
ever going to do in government because there's such a thing as events and you've got to sort
6:32
things out and i i don't think for example when it comes to setting a budget you can say five years
6:38
in advance all the things you are or aren't going to do in a budget so that's just not realistic
6:42
when i say respecting the mandate i mean respecting the pillars on which that mandate was based
6:47
you know the approach that you take towards the economy to taxation international affairs welfare
6:53
all the rest of all the really big foundation stones around which you build your program for
6:58
government if you really depart seriously from those then I think you get into a territory where
7:03
people will rightly say okay well we should decide all that you know we are the sovereign electorate
7:07
and you know you shouldn't um you shouldn't abuse that authority so it's all about really what the
7:14
new Prime Minister does and whether, you know, they stick to the mandate or not. I hope they
7:17
stick to the mandate, obviously. You mentioned events being something that any government has to respond to. Let's say for the sake of argument it's Andy Burnham
7:27
who takes over He will be greeted by the same realities that Keir Starmer was greeted by when he became prime minister just two short years ago
7:41
Which ones leap out at you? Which realities leap out at you
7:45
I presume the nation's finances is right up there. Oh, there certainly is, Sheila
7:51
I think the other two really stand out issues for me, I mean, first and foremost, we've got to develop
7:56
and implement a strategy for economic growth. We just haven't really been able to do that
8:00
We have done lots of things that are good, but we've done lots of things that have set us back
8:05
So not a surprise that we're going round and round in circles. Right at this moment in time, we might have the fastest growing economy in the G7
8:13
That does not mean we're on a pathway to economic growth over the medium to longer term
8:18
We're not. And secondly, we've got to respond to the really pressing threat on our borders that an aggressive Russia is posing
8:26
So those straight out of the traps are two huge big issues. And this is why I am concerned that politics of personality
8:33
just completely confuses the real substance, substantive challenges that government is going to face
8:40
It's about policy, not personality. And we've got to have answers to some of these really big questions
8:44
And, you know, it would be good to have that set out for us. To your calls, Tamara in Notting Hill
8:50
Hello, Tamara. Hello, Sheila. I think it's time for general election. You know, Kyrgyz Palmer and Labour Party, however they won the majority with whoever bothered to vote
9:01
they won the majority, they won it on the manifesto, and they let us down
9:05
He promised transparency, no more lies and sleazy affairs, and that's what happened
9:11
You know, Angela Rayner, and well, let's all go about this. The fact is, it is a democratic country
9:17
I don't want some king of the north to rule the country without being an elected leader of this country
9:23
We don't know his manifesto. We don't know what he's proposing. Are you bothered that he's from the north
9:27
He's probably proposing even more spending, more taxes, and less freedom of speech
9:33
and more problems than Starmer has caused as well. We've had enough
9:38
It seems like subsequent governments like nothing but completely incompetent people who are drunk on their own ego and power
9:47
Enough of this. We need people with integrity, practicality, down-to-earth, And we as voters should have the right to decide if this party has caused the mess and are incapable of running the country and improving our situation, then let's vote again and find somebody who does
10:04
Simple as that. OK, but what if... We already have one king. All right, let me say something
10:09
He's never called himself the king of the north. That's a name that the headline writers put for him
10:14
what if he just tried internally to get change as others did and the prime minister didn't listen
10:22
and they just thought we're absolutely doomed here after two years in office if we don't get rid of
10:26
him well i think i think he strikes me as somebody who just once he makes up his mind
10:33
he doesn't change his mind unless well then he does this well he changes his mind a lot as we've
10:39
seen in the what was it 17 u-turns i think it was he's he's but often only when his hand is forced
10:45
and today was another example of it i suppose thank you tamara if you're cool tamara in notting
10:49
making it clear she wants a general election what might make you think all right he needs to call
10:56
an election if if he brought in some fundamentally different policy uh not just not just a tone and
11:03
style of leadership or a change of economic approach, but a fundamental difference from
11:09
what the government presented or the Labour Party presented to the people at the general
11:14
election. Do you think he should then call an election? I think they need to change things first of all First the national insurance increase is killing the country I know people who work for Tesco and they basically they having their hours cut
11:34
So they need to do that. They need to change the VAT for pubs because we're losing pubs like you would not believe
11:40
And certainly, you need to address the benefits. You know, let's get it right, but it means testing
11:46
The people are walking around the street and, you know, getting benefits for doing nothing
11:51
Let's get it right is a really important part of that, definitely. Thank you very much, James. James in Wembley
11:56
Giles, what do you think should happen? I think there should definitely be a leadership competition
12:02
We cannot have a coronation of Andy Burnham. It just would be totally unacceptable
12:09
He has not been elected to Parliament under the current manifesto. No one really knows anything about him
12:15
and I have to say from listening to... Well, some people do. Some people do
12:19
but not everybody in the country knows about him now. Yeah, not many people do. I mean, okay, they may know about him
12:24
but they don't know what he stands for. And if I could just say his resignation speech in Makerfield about summed it up
12:29
when he just talked about hope and change the whole time. I mean, what on earth does that mean
12:33
Sorry, his victory speech in Makerfield. Sorry, his victory speech in Makerfield
12:39
I mean, he literally just talked about hope and change and not much else. I mean, what does that mean
12:43
I mean, it is literally vacuous nonsense. Yes, but those moments at three in the morning
12:48
aren't when people set out a policy platform. No, but he didn't do it during the election either
12:54
I mean, no one has a clue what he said. But he wasn't talking to you and me during the election
12:57
He was talking to the people of Makerfield and he didn't say much publicly at all. Okay, well, we'd be nice to know what he does
13:03
because no one has a clue now. We need to know what he actually stands for. If he's planning to be prime minister of the country
13:10
I think we deserve to know what he stands for. and the only way we can do that
13:15
is to have a leadership election otherwise it'll just be a coronation
13:19
he'll go in having said nothing holding the sort of beloved Ming bars
13:24
and no one will know the difference and we need someone I mean ideally I'd like someone like Al-Khans
13:30
who is on the right side the right wing of the party and he could almost be a conservative
13:35
as far as I'm concerned he's more conservative than half the Conservative Party but have someone like him up against him
13:40
he's someone who's who's lived in the real world has proved himself and he stands for from what i
13:47
understand from his resignation speech cutting welfare spending on defense all these things
13:51
let's see how that goes down with the labour backbenchers who are economically totally
13:55
illiterate and we need to see this stuff because let's face it the backbenchers are the ones who
14:01
rule the labour party and what they say goes at the moment so let's hear what they've all got to say
14:06
But I can't imagine the Parliamentary Labour Party that is clearly in numbers, we're told around 200 on the record at least, support Burnham
14:19
So are they likely to suddenly find they're interested in a man or a woman who could almost be a Conservative
14:26
Probably not. But at the end of the day, that's what we deserve. I mean, if you want the truth from me, I mean, I think this lot are away with the fairies
14:34
They haven't got a clue what they're doing. And I would like to see a leadership competition
14:40
if only to watch Labour tear itself apart. It would be fantastically good viewing for the next few weeks
14:48
because they will turn themselves apart. They don't know what they stand for and they are just trashing the country in terms of the economy and everything else
14:56
Would a long drawn out contest, by long I mean, so there would be no change for September
15:02
would that slow the country down? I don't think it makes much difference to be honest
15:07
but at least we might have an idea of what's going on
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