Up next in 10
Andrew Marr speaks to former Health Secretary Wes Streeting about his bid for Prime Minister… and what’s delaying his challenge to Keir Starmer. The former Health Secretary insists he’s ‘not trying to pull a fast one'. This, he explains, is why he's delaying his leadership challenge until after the by-election, allowing Andy Burnham the chance to participate, if he wins. Streeting insists he doesn’t want to see PM Keir Starmer ‘humiliated’ but says we ‘need a change of leadership’. The timeline for that change... it could be 'as early as next week'. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #andrewmarr #wesstreeting #starmer #ukpolitics #uknews #andyburnham #LBC #labour LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
You want to be Prime Minister. The Russians fired some shots in the channel today
0:05
and we've been landing on Russian ships. How worried are you about the increasing escalation between ourselves and the Russians
0:13
Extremely. And we obviously, it's an unfolding situation. We'll wait to hear from the Prime Minister and Defence Secretary
0:21
And for the avoidance of doubt, they'll have my full support in responding to this. So let's let the facts emerge and let's give them space to do their jobs
0:30
But we've also seen that remarkable effort by our special forces only days ago
0:38
We've seen in the courts the news that the Russians were behind these arson attacks on the Prime Minister's personal homes
0:48
We've seen the poisoning of the Screep House in Salisbury on our own soil
0:53
And these are the threats that we can all see. There are also the unseen threats from Russia
0:59
All the time. all the time, on a daily basis. And so it's in that context that we need to get a grip on this
1:07
defence investment plan and make sure that we're not only equipped to see off the Russian threats
1:13
today, but also to guard against the emerging and future threats and fighting or indeed preventing
1:19
the next war rather than fighting the last one. Absolutely. So in clear terms, where would you
1:24
find the money from to properly fund defence? So I think this is three-pronged. First and foremost
1:30
let's make sure we've got the right plan first. I was quite concerned by what John Healy, Al Qansi
1:38
former Armed Forces Minister have said, and indeed an increasingly growing chorus of military voices
1:44
who are saying not just there's insufficient money, but also the plan isn't the right one
1:50
So first and foremost, let's make sure we get the right plan and let's do that in short order
1:54
Secondly, let's make sure the plan is fully funded. Now, I think..
1:58
So how do you do that? I think there's a few ways. I mean, look, firstly, you can raise revenue
2:03
And I've set out as part of my pitch for the labour leadership, a pitch for what I'm calling the wealth tax that works
2:09
equalising capital gains with income tax with, and this is an important caveat
2:14
generous reliefs for entrepreneurs, founders. I mean, actually, it's a pro-fairness, but also pro-growth measure
2:23
So you think, to be absolutely clear, you can find more money from the better off to fund defence
2:29
I think that could be part of the mix. But secondly, we do have to look across government and ask ourselves in a very clear-eyed way
2:38
are the things we're currently funding more important than this? That is the daily question of government
2:44
And I'm concerned that what we've seen reported is that the prime minister has asked for a blanket 1% across all government departments
2:50
Now, that doesn't show me a prime minister making choices. That's the prime minister avoiding them and just making it a simple haircut rather than genuinely looking and prioritising across government
3:00
And, look, for example, I'm not saying that this is the thing I would just lop off completely or scrap
3:08
And I don't believe in it. I'm a former health secretary. But honestly, the optics of announcing four and a half billion pounds of funding for walking and cycling the day after the defence secretary has resigned saying we're not keeping our country safe
3:22
I mean, optically, let alone substantially, does that really look like the right priority for the country
3:30
And so I think you do have to do that combination of looking at where you can raise revenue, looking at whether you can make savings across government
3:37
And then this is the third plank. And I don't want the MOD to miss this point, because if I'm prime minister, they need to get ready for it
3:43
what I hear about the MOD, the Ministry of Defence, is so reminiscent of what I heard about the Department of Health and Social Care
3:52
and the NHS in opposition. The Ministry of Defence is famous for being bad at procurement
3:57
for having inter-service rivalry, vested interests, and as Al Khan said in his interviews
4:03
there are a whole load of programmes we're currently funding in defence, not because we think they're the right programmes
4:09
but because scrapping them would create professional blushes. Well, tough. I do think that the investment has to be matched with modernisation
4:15
So that is really interesting. And the MOD has to take reform as seriously there as I take reform in the NHS If you were Prime Minister would you bring back people like John Healy and Al Karns into government to do that Of course I mean it such a loss It such a loss
4:30
And Dan Jarvis, who has been appointed Defence Secretary, I mean, in some ways, better late than never
4:36
Dan is a great guy. I've always thought he'd end up being our country's Defence Secretary
4:40
Hospital pass, though, isn't it? Yeah. And look, someone needed to step up
4:45
I think John's resignation was very principled and I support him in it, but you can't leave a job like that vacant
4:52
So Dan Jarvis was right to step up and he certainly got the skills and the experience to do that job well
4:58
But he's got to be given the resources. He's got to be given the backing and that we've got to make sure that the investment is matched with modernisation
5:07
modernisation. And we're going to have to bang some heads together, even if they're military
5:10
heads sometimes, because there is just that inter-service rivalry. There are some of those
5:17
programmes that have built up over time that may not necessarily be the right ones. I've seen this
5:22
in the NHS. Sometimes you have to just, as a political leader, step in and say, I know there
5:27
may be some professional blushes about this. I'll cover you, but we're going to scrap these programmes
5:32
because they're not the right programmes. I thought your speech today on the economy was
5:36
remarkably optimistic and gung-ho about Britain compared to many people around the country
5:41
You don't think it's a broken economy. Can I ask you directly, what do you think Rachel Reeves has
5:46
got wrong? Well, I think without personalising it, I think that because actually in some ways
5:55
I don't think this is Rachel's problem. I've been at cabinet meetings over the last two years
6:01
where Rachel has exhorted and pleaded with colleagues across the cabinet that when they're confronted with choices, make the pro-growth choices
6:11
And truth be told, we say growth is the number one priority in principle
6:17
but in practice, we make different choices. And there are good examples of this
6:22
I mean, on Europe, at a glacial pace, the government has begun to realise
6:27
that even with all these other trade deals, we've got the biggest single market on our doorstep we left the eu there were big trade
6:37
consequences and a closer trading relationship with europe within the red lines of our manifesto
6:43
not breaking any promises will do so much more for growth than other trade deals so go for growth
6:49
and set out a long-term direction that's clear with our friends in the eu that one day britain's
6:55
destiny, Britain's interest, is back in the EU. You've got to do that over time. You've got to respect
7:01
the democratic wishes of this country, so there'd have to be a settled opinion about it
7:07
You've got to respect that we cause disruption for our European friends, but
7:11
if you're clear about the direction, and you're clear about where you want to go, we'll get
7:15
I think a much better trading relationship. Similarly, immigration. Of course we've got to stop
7:19
the boats and secure our borders, but there should be a magnified talent from around the world
7:23
Let's get 20,000 of the best AI and tech and creators in Britain
7:29
A moment ago, Wes, you said, if I'm prime minister, you're clearly thinking that way
7:34
You've made that very, very clear today. Can I ask you a couple of things about that
7:38
One, you say you've got the support, which means 81 MPs. There's an awful lot of your colleagues who simply don't believe you
7:46
Have you really got 81 MPs signed up for a contest immediately
7:51
yes and one of the challenges well that was a long yes yeah two the two challenges um one is
7:58
when i resigned from the government the reason i didn't pull the trigger on a contest at that point
8:04
was i knew andy burnham was coming back and honestly if there's one thing people can't
8:08
stand it's when someone tries to pull a fast one yeah and get ahead of the competition
8:12
and i think if if i believe in in my argument and my plan you're ready to go you've got to be ready
8:19
You're ready to go. Yes. And the second challenge, Andrew, is some of my supporters are ministers
8:24
Now, the prime minister is trying to say that people must resign in order to support other people
8:29
On one level, I can understand it. But on another, that is a recipe for the sort of chaos we saw under the conservatives, where we had three education secretaries over a matter of days
8:38
And I really think the prime minister has to think about his responsibility and duty and whether in propping himself up he genuinely doing the right thing by the country in trying to say to ministers you must support me
8:53
That doesn't. He's standing very determined today that he's going to fight on whatever happens
8:57
And he's got every right to do that. But I would say in all seriousness about that, I think he's got to think really carefully about whether he really has the support in his cabinet, about whether he really has the support in the parliamentary party
9:09
and whether he really has the support of the country. Do you think he might be humiliated in those circumstances
9:15
Well, I don't want to see the Prime Minister humiliated. I respect him very much
9:20
I don't have any personal animosity to him. Quite the opposite. But we've got to be honest with ourselves
9:27
that what happened to the Labour Party in May was catastrophic. I still don't think we're having a proper debate
9:33
about the scale of the defeat and the message the voters sent us. In Newcastle, for example, a Labour city
9:39
There are two Labour councillors left in the entire city. Reform are on 24. The Greens are on 24
9:47
We got smashed from our left and right. And, you know, I think Newcastle epitomises Labour's challenge across England
9:53
where we've lost to the left, to the Greens, to the right with reform. But Scotland and Wales, we've got nationalists in power everywhere
9:59
and we should take that seriously. Let me just come back to the near immediate, because by the end of this week, one of two things will have happened
10:06
Andy Burnham will have won Maker Field, or he won't. If he wins and perhaps wins well and comes sweeping back with, you know, a huge tide of support behind him, are you really going to put him and yourself and the Labour Party through a contest or might you do some kind of agreement with him
10:23
Well, I can understand why in a context where Andy Burnham is elected on Thursday and I very much hope he will be
10:30
I was up in Makefield yesterday campaigning for him. I've been before. I'm rooting for Andy
10:35
We've got to beat reform. I can understand why people would think, well, actually, couldn't you just work together
10:41
And of course, at some point, we're going to need to work together anyway. It seems to be your progressive capitalism and his business-friendly socialism kind of touch fingers a bit
10:49
Well, it's not surprising there'll be loads of things we agree on. We're members of the Labour Party
10:53
We've got the same values. I like and respect him very much. My concern, though, Andrew, is that a contest tests people
11:04
it tests character it tests clarity like do you actually know what you want to do and it tests
11:13
policy and you think Andy Burnham needs to be tested well I think all of us do and I think
11:19
handled in the right way where we conduct ourselves in the right way and it's a genuine
11:24
battle of ideas rather than a clash of personalities or petty factionalism I think
11:31
that's how you emerge stronger. OK, so that's very clear. For the party, but for the country, most importantly
11:35
Andy Burnham makes it back to Westminster. You're saying to him, you're not going to get a coronation
11:40
I'm going to make sure there is a contest. I think there should be a contest
11:44
And I say that, to avoidance of doubt, though, I like and respect him very much
11:49
I think he's been a great mayor in Greater Manchester. I think he was a big figure in the last Labour government
11:55
I'll say that now ahead of his election on Thursday, but I'll be saying the same thing from Friday onwards
12:00
whether we're competing against each other or not in that context, because I think that is an important part about the cultural change we need to bring to the party
12:10
that openness, that generosity of spirit, that willingness to listen to other people
12:16
take on board ideas. I think some of that has been missing under the current leadership
12:21
So it's a change of leadership and policy and culture that's needed. And Chancellor
12:26
Well, I'm not getting into it. I don't think that's fair on the Chancellor
12:30
I certainly don't think in the middle of all of this row about the defence investment and other things
12:36
It's very easy for people to scapegoat the Chancellor. I don't think that's fair. OK. The second thing, of course, that could happen this week is that Andy Burnham doesn't make it back and the reform wins Makerfield
12:46
That is also still possible. The voters haven't made up their minds yet. In those circumstances, would you challenge Keir Starmer without Andy Burnham being on the pitch
12:55
And that would come quite quickly. I think the fact that we are even debating that prospect says two things One to people in Makerfield your vote really counts in this by And I know you going to have to do the thing now Yeah yeah we have to do all of that
13:12
They're on the website. Let's put the by-election. I'm really interested. But honestly, that by-election, and I was there yesterday, there were people
13:18
whose doors I was knocking on. He was saying that they were undecided
13:21
and that with the choice between Andy and reform, they'd back Andy
13:26
And so the job is not done yet. But secondly, the fact
13:30
we're even debating whether Labour would hold Makerfield is a symptom of the Labour Party's
13:36
political crisis. You can hear and see me trying not to talk about that by-election because of all the things that we have to do
13:40
Let me just steer back to the bigger picture. The fact that if anyone other than Andy Burnham was on that ballot paper
13:46
we wouldn't be winning the by-election, I think says its own story about the political challenge
13:52
facing the Labour Party. I'm sorry to underline this, but to be
13:56
absolutely clear, in the circumstances when he isn't back in Westminster You will challenge Keir Starmer
14:01
I believe we need a change of leadership. As early as next week, perhaps. And if Andy Burnham isn't back, I still believe we need that change of leadership
14:08
I would hope, by the way, Andrew, that the Prime Minister seriously reflects this weekend
14:14
about whether he's genuinely the right person to lead us forward. I still think it's preferable for everyone for him to come to the right conclusion on his own terms
14:22
But there is a kind of deadline or something of the end of this week and early next week
14:28
After that, I just put it to you. next week you might launch a leadership bid formally
14:33
Yeah, but I'll tell you what frustrates me about the process arguments. It's not that I'm trying to be evasive, because as you know, I answer questions directly
14:40
And as I said in my speech, and I say it on all of my general election campaigns in Ilford North
14:45
you may not always agree with me, you'll always know where I stand. That is kind of how I operate as a politician
14:50
However, the process arguments really frustrate me, because today I've given a big speech about growth, about inequality in our country
14:59
how we address it, I think we should be talking about those ideas and those challenges
15:03
Instead, it's are you challenging Friday? Are you challenging Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday
15:08
Are you doing a deal with this one, that one? Listen, that is the life of a contender. I'm sorry
15:13
I know, but it's politics as soap opera. And look at the state of the country. OK, well, let me ask you what I think is a real substantive question
15:21
You might not agree, which is that Burnham is coming, as it were, with a sort of gale of wind from the north
15:27
the Manchester wind, and your party, the Labour Party, has had leader after leader after leader from North London
15:36
And there are people who think there is a kind of geographical London problem here
15:40
I mean, you're another London boy. Well, I'm an East Londoner, so I've definitely got it in for North London
15:45
And look, I understand that. And I'd say a couple of things about that
15:51
one is there has been a challenge in politics, in Labour more broadly
15:58
where you've got people from a certain background, a certain social class
16:02
a certain perspective who exercise power. And I think it's one of the reasons we've got a big divide in our country, actually
16:14
but I saw I saw a survey today a bit of research that had the general public when they asked about
16:24
the social back class background of different politicians I think there were more people who
16:28
there were way more people who thought I was middle class than working class and there was
16:32
a sizable group of people who even thought I was upper class and it made me laugh because I I as I
16:39
said in my speech this morning i spent the few first few days of my life living in a drawer
16:44
in my nan's council house in east london my mum was a single mum and i lived on a council estate
16:53
we experienced not just hardship but proper poverty growing up it has shaped my politics
17:00
my outlook and my determination to make sure that kids from working class backgrounds like mine
17:05
have the same choices and chances and opportunities as those from most privileged backgrounds
17:09
What worries me about the state of Britain today, especially thinking about the next generation, is that it's not just the working class kids like me that are suffering
17:17
It's middle class kids of well-educated, well-off parents who are also feeling the pinch
17:23
And for me, that is the big mission for the country now, to make the next generation better off than the last
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