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Andrew Marr reflects on Keir Starmer's final PMQs as Andy Burnham prepares to take over as Prime Minister on Monday. The outgoing prime minister made his final PMQ’s appearance at the helm and was met with a warm reception, both from within his party and across the opposition. Rachel Reeves was misty-eyed as Sir Keir said "this is the end of my political journey", prompting a standing ovation from MPs and ministers. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #andrewmarr #keirstarmer #ukpolitics #pmqs #kemibadenoch #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
It's over
0:01
Every Prime Minister knows when they take up the torch that the day will come when they have to pass it on
0:07
That day has come for me. This is the end of my political journey
0:14
In six years, went from historic defeat in 2019 to historic victory in 2024
0:22
And in two years in government, I leave the country in better shape than I found it
0:27
But Keir Starmer's last Prime Minister's questions was unlike any that I've heard
0:32
It was moving. It wasn't stupidly partisan. It was gracious, sometimes witty, at other times very funny
0:41
Here is a little selection. Can I thank my right honourable and very dear friend
0:48
for everything he's given to our party and our country? She has extended kindness to me privately at very difficult times, including when there was an attempt to burn down our family home, which deeply affected my family
1:04
She reached out to me. And when my brother died of cancer, she reached out to me privately, not across this dispatch box
1:11
I have some good news for the Prime Minister. Yes, under his tenureship, 76% of England football matches have been won, which is the greatest, most successful record of any Prime Minister in history. So will he commit in his remaining days in office to carrying out whatever meetings, reviews, motivational talks to ensure his greatest legacy on Sunday is that finally football is coming home
1:37
To my wife and children, I love you. Goodbye. There are two different responses to a parliamentary event
1:49
so lacking in point scoring and animosity. One is to say, there you go, they're all the same, the uni party
1:57
Away from the cameras and the microphones, it's out with the guitars and kumbaya
2:02
Westminster politics is a charade. Bring on the revolution. The other way of looking at it, and I am, hands up, a notorious softy
2:12
is that it's not just heartwarming but democratically essential that people who disagree bitterly on policy are still able to recognise one another
2:20
as human beings to be empathised with. After the horrible murder of Anne Whittacombe
2:26
it's surely not controversial to say that this is what we need more of
2:31
at the heart of our political culture. What the Brexiteer and former Tory MP Steve Baker described to me recently
2:37
as the art of disagreeing agreeably. And in that spirit, Kemi Beidnok, the Tory leader, was pitch perfect
2:46
Today, she found a new tonal register and gave her best performance by far at the dispatch box
2:53
As for Keir Starmer himself, he turns out to be a pretty competent comedian
2:58
Good timing, fast responses, and I know, if only we had seen a bit more of that
3:03
But anyway, let's begin by talking about what he's achieved in the past two years in Dining Street
3:08
He gave us earlier on a pretty familiar list. Standing with Ukraine, keeping us out of the Middle East war
3:14
the economy stable, big action on child poverty, NHS waiting lists down
3:20
Now, that is not nothing. But when he says he's taken Britain to a better place
3:26
there are questions. Growth has been weak. Productivity is poor. The welfare bill is huge and rising fast
3:35
There are more than a million young people not in educational work at the moment
3:39
The tax burden is at a post-war high, and yet much of the country still feels left behind, poor and ignored
3:48
Starmer was never able to communicate optimism and a sense of national direction
3:54
By the winter, he was the least popular Prime Minister since records began
3:59
Labour was doing so badly in the polls and lost around 1,000 council seats in May and its grip in Wales that many in the party wondered about its very future
4:10
And then there was the Mandelson saga, so badly mishandled from start to finish
4:17
From a Labour point of view, is a country in a better place compatible with a country which still prefers reform to any of the traditional parties
4:25
That is the challenge for Keir Starmer's successor. But I'm going to start tonight with somebody who's known him and backed him for a very long time
4:33
the Foreign Office Minister, Baroness Jenny Chapman. Jenny, thanks very much for coming in
4:38
In that list of pros and cons I was thinking to myself perhaps the biggest problem he has had is failing as it were to get himself inside our heads to convince us to bring us forward I think that it easier now to look back and see the good things that Keir Starmer has done and the journey that he taken the Labour Party on from crushing defeat to massive parliamentary majority
5:04
And there are people today, even those who really wanted change and have got that change, reflecting and thinking, you know what, there's something to be proud of here
5:14
Do you think there's a slight second thought feeling in the chamber today? Well, life is full of those and it's usually a waste of time
5:22
So what I detected was a real sense of pride in what Keir has done, but in what the party has done together
5:29
and he's been very generous in the way that he's spoken about this in the last few weeks
5:35
and he's reflected very much that the achievements are ones of a team
5:39
and he's given a very strong signal to that team about the way that he thinks
5:45
the next few years should play out and he wants to see unity
5:49
he wants to see the government to continue from a position of strength, he wants us to continue to deliver for the people of the country
5:56
and that I think is the sense and the mood that you saw in the chamber today
6:02
and particularly I think after the murder of Anne Whiddicombe. I think there were a lot of people really thinking
6:09
have we always done ourselves the proudest that we could in recent years
6:14
in the way that we've conducted politics? What does public service actually mean? Exactly and I think Keir has been a very good example
6:21
of how you should conduct yourself and how many of us would like to see politics conducted
6:27
And I think that's a strong legacy, too, as well as all the achievements around waiting lists and those other things
6:32
If he was so good, and again, I say in the comments today, I thought he was very, very funny and gracious and did it pitch perfectly
6:38
Yeah, me too. But if he's so good, why was he kicked out as prime minister
6:42
Because it's a tough old game, Andrew, you know, and you're not allowed to make mistakes or be unpopular
6:47
Yeah, it was very unpopular. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, the statistics speak for themselves
6:53
We had some very, very bad elections in May and he's paid a very high price for that
7:00
But what he wants us to do is to rally behind Andy Burnham
7:04
He's going to be a good prime minister. He starts next week and he's going to have a strong team supporting him
7:09
because what matters far more than anybody's ego or how they want to be remembered
7:14
or any of that stuff is that we continue to serve the people that elected a Labour government
7:20
They still have that Labour government. Yes, as a different prime minister, but we've got a hell of a lot to do
7:25
What Keir didn't say, even when he was listing the achievements of his government
7:30
was job done, complete. Because it's not. It really isn't. I'm in no mood to kick a man when he's down and just left with such grace as Keir Starmer has
7:42
But I do want to ask in a serious way what you think his problems were as prime minister
7:46
because clearly not everything worked properly. I think there was some obvious, obviously, Mandelson was a mistake, clearly. And I think
7:55
that when you come in as a new government who's been out of power for 14 years, you make mistakes
8:01
And there were mistakes that were made. And the winter fuel thing, winter fuel, you know
8:05
all of that is well documented, well discussed. And we've been through it many, many times
8:10
What you have now is almost like fresh legs on the pitch at halftime, but you're not starting
8:15
the match again. So we have still a huge amount to do around cost of living, around youth
8:22
unemployment. So there are big challenges the country faces. They need a government that's
8:27
going to be activist and energetic about making the change and delivering what people want to see
8:32
I've got every confidence that we can do this. I've sat in this chair all the way through those
8:38
series of conservative switches from one prime minister to another. Brutal, sentimental, you know
8:44
fast and all the rest of it, all the way through people would say, well, do you know what, the Labour Party can't do this kind of thing
8:49
The Labour Party can never remove a prime minister, can never remove a leader. Why do you think it was so efficient, so disciplined, so brutal, so quick
8:58
I think some of that is the way that Keir conducted himself. And I'm sure that Andy Burnham would be the first person to point out that he would not be able to walk into number 10 next week
9:09
had Keir not changed the party around, not won the leadership contest
9:13
not fought for all those years and won a majority, not built a team that could do those things
9:19
It would have been different. And I think the way that he led the party and the way that he conducted himself as prime minister
9:25
allowed for quite a smooth I wouldn say it was It didn always feel smooth to me but I don think what you seen is the bitterness and animosity that we would have seen when the Tories did this sort of thing
9:37
Very quick final question. Do you know what Keir Starmer is going to do next and what do you think
9:41
he should do next? I think he's earned a break and some time with Vic and the kids. And then I'm sure that he has
9:49
something to contribute to the country, if not globally. All right, Baroness Chapman, Jenny Chapman. Thank you very, very much indeed. Let's turn next to the challenges ahead with a man who wrote a political manifesto with Andy Burnham, his former fellow mayor, Steve Rotherham, not of Manchester, of course, but of Liverpool city region and a longtime campaigner for the Hillsborough 97
10:11
I wanted to start by getting his reflections on the announcement yesterday of the new so-called Hillsborough law
10:16
relief um tinged with um a bit of hope that the country now can steer away from repeating the
10:27
mistakes of the past and uh also um just absolute admiration for what the families and the campaigners
10:37
have gone through for three and a half nearly four decades um but always with one thing in sight
10:43
and that was that they wanted truth and justice. And the rewiring now of the country means that people in the future
10:50
will be able to call on the things that those campaigners have won
10:55
You've said in the past that you're kind of haunted by the thought of what those 97 people might have done in life had they lived
11:03
In a sense, that's the one thing that we will never know we will never get back
11:07
Yeah, and if you have a look at... So Ian Byrne, who's one of the MPs, he's a health-blast survivor
11:13
I think Derek Twig was at the match as well he's been a long standing MP
11:18
I've become an MP and then the Metro murder the Liverpool City region, I was at Hillsborough
11:23
just imagine what those people who were lost to us those 97 individuals
11:29
what their lives might have been and don't forget they went to
11:34
a football match that's what they went to, they went to a thing
11:37
to enjoy, to be excited to support their team and then didn't go home
11:44
And that's the thing that still haunts many of the families and the relatives today
11:49
This is the last day of Keir Starmer's performance in the House of Commons as Prime Minister
11:54
He's still Prime Minister for a couple more days, but he was effectively his last outing in the Commons
11:59
Just, first of all, your reflections on his two years as Prime Minister
12:03
Well, I think he should be rightly proud of the part that he's played in the Hillsborough Law, for instance
12:09
And there's some really good policies that have come out over the last two years, the stuff around taking children out of poverty
12:16
I mean, who could really be against kids not being forced into desperate circumstances
12:23
The stuff around employment rights, that'll be a really good legacy. There's loads of bits and bobs, but I think it'll be tinged
12:31
with regret for him that he didn't go more bolder more quickly
12:37
And whilst we had that early opportunity, the honeymoon period, if you like, of a new government, that we didn't force things through the Commons much more quickly
12:47
Let's move on to Andy Burnham, a man you know very well and have been allied with for a long time
12:52
You talked about rewiring the country. What is your greatest hope for Andy Burnham over the next couple of years
12:59
Now, one, we'll see that pace that we need. You know, we need to accelerate some of the great stuff that's already started under Keir Starmer's government
13:08
but also that we'll learn the lessons from what we've done over the last nine years together
13:15
with devolution. You can't have a monolith like a national government expected to deliver quickly
13:22
for all parts of the UK. It simply can't happen. It hasn't happened. There's evidence there to
13:29
suggest that that's one of the inhibitors to economic growth. If you have a look at
13:34
our country, we're one of the most centralised democracies in the OECD
13:40
So why have we had this lengthy period where areas feel they've been left behind
13:47
And it's because Westminster's too far away and decisions taken more locally by people who understand their areas are far better
13:55
There's a kind of tussle going on already in the parliamentary party about who Andy Burnham really is politically
14:02
The left saying he's one of ours, the centre-right saying, no, no, no, no, come over to this side
14:07
And we don't really know. You know him well. Where would you put his political personality or his political instincts in terms of the Labour Party Well he believes inherently in social justice And that obvious through everything that he
14:22
done. You know, when he was the mayor of Greater Manchester, have a look what he did about
14:26
homelessness and, you know, foregone some of his own wage so that he could have a bed every night
14:31
and the things that he did to try and level that playing field so that everybody could benefit
14:36
But before that, the campaigns that he's been involved in, not just Hillsborough, by the way, but a whole series of campaigns
14:43
that are injustices, he's got very solid values and principles. That will be the driving force
14:51
And I think this dichotomy between is he left, is he right, is he this
14:56
he's just him and the party will be the party and they'll have people from all wings
15:03
Andy will be able to do something, I think, for everyone. So this argument at the moment about whether or not Ed Miliband, for instance, should be chancellor of the Exchequer, you would say that's not as important as people think it is
15:16
I've been down there. I've been in Westminster. I've been an MP. So I know the psychodrama that happens down there. And one of the reasons that we originally walked away from Westminster was because everything seen through the prism of what's important in Westminster, the rest of the country don't think that way
15:37
So we have to get away from all of that and start to do things that deliver for ordinary people, the people who listen to this programme
15:47
But Ed, nonetheless, has been a great cheerleader and leader of the soft left, so-called soft left in the party
15:54
Would you like to see him as Chancellor? Honestly, I'm pretty nonplussed about the whole thing
16:02
I do believe that the position of the Chancellor is the most important role
16:08
That's what I'm asking, really. Yeah, so we accept that. But who fulfills it
16:13
It'll be a whole host of different things, and it'll be about ensuring that the personalities don't clash
16:19
because that is not a good way forward. We saw that, didn't we, with Tony and Gordon
16:24
and we've seen it with incumbents in the Tory government. But what I think we need is somebody who understands what Andy needs and then can deliver that more quickly
16:38
So we're talking personality. You mentioned the word personality. Andy is clearly a very likable guy
16:44
He's able to communicate very easily with people and establish a kind of warm connection with them
16:50
Is he tough enough? I've seen some, I've been in some situations with them
16:56
And without going into too many details on this, there was stuff that we did behind the scenes on the Hillsborough law
17:05
And we met with what people say, perhaps unfairly, the spooks, but we met with the intelligence services
17:12
the top people in the intelligence services. And all I could tell you is that what happens will remain
17:19
obviously in those conversations in confidence. But I saw Andy Burnham very, very clearly being able to put a case forward
17:29
at a very, very senior level, a very technical case, and come out the winner
17:35
Well, that's interesting. He's under a bit of pressure at the moment, particularly from the Tories
17:40
but other people too, for not answering enough questions, not being in the Commons answering questions
17:45
Then there's a big summer break. He's going to be travelling around the country, as I understand it, meeting people, answering questions there
17:52
Do you want him in Liverpool? And what kind of questions do you think he'll face if he gets to Liverpool
17:56
Well, if he comes to Liverpool, there'll probably be stuff around Everton's new ground
18:00
Now, Andy, that's the ones you'll feel most comfortable on. Now, look, he'll take questions from anybody and he can answer any particular subject
18:09
But in the next few weeks as the prime minister, he's going to have to have international calls
18:16
He's going to have to have very sort of geopolitical briefings. He'll be able to absorb all of that
18:24
and he can communicate with anybody at their level. And that's not just at a senior political level
18:31
Jordan needs sort of the way in which Andy will go around the country
18:35
He'll be talking to apprentices and young kids as well as politicians and everybody else
18:41
because the country needs to come together, And that's where Andy's skills really will come to the fore
18:48
And he needs to draw this very, very divided country that we currently all inhabit much closer together
18:56
Well, party politics aside, crossed fingers, crossed toes and amen to that
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