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00:00 - Andrew Marr analyses today’s the reaction to Farage’s comments in PMQs today. 03:48 - Labour MP for Southampton Test Satvir Kaur, who is also Sikh joins Andrew. 08:37 - Deputy political editor Aggie Chamber gives the temperature around Westminster after a dramatic Prime Minister's Questions. 11:02 - Stephen Bush Associate Editor of the Financial Times tells us 'what Henry Nowak's murder does - and does not - tell us about policing'. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #Southampton #andrewmarr #LBC #HenryNowak #News #Politics #twotierpolicing #crime #ukpolitics #starmer #nigelfarage #farage #tommyrobinson LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
It's been a really big day in politics
0:03
After riots in Southampton about so-called two-tier anti-white policing following the death of Henry Novak
0:10
both Labour and the Tories have turned on Nigel Farage for weaponising a terrible death
0:16
The reform leader, who yesterday suggested that pure cold rage was the appropriate response to the death of Henry Novak
0:24
noticeably did not condemn the street violence, despite the plea for calm from the victim's family
0:30
The anger that you saw spilling out in Southampton last night... Condemn it. Condemn it. Condemn it
0:42
And which is in danger... Condemn the violence. Which is in danger of getting considerably worse..
0:50
Condemn it. Condemn it. If the public lose trust in being treated fairly by the police
0:59
can he take some action, end this divisive practice of two-tier policing
1:06
and make sure that all British citizens are treated the same? I haven't seen the Commons so angry for a long time
1:15
Keir Starmer, in his most effective parliamentary performance since becoming Prime Minister, laid into Farage face-to-face
1:22
My grieving family have asked us not to respond in the way that the leader of reform has responded
1:28
They've asked us not to. They have lost their son in the most appalling circumstances
1:33
They make a simple plea of us as human beings to please not exploit that
1:40
That is their plea to us. We all need to reflect on those words of Henry's father
1:46
my response and the response of others to be fair has been focused on the lessons to be learned
1:53
so we can deliver justice his response has been to appeal for rage rage
2:02
that's his response to a father who's lost his son and asked for that not to happen
2:08
exploiting this tragedy to create grievance and division would be wrong in any circumstances
2:15
but to do it when the family are expressly saying, please don't, is unforgivable
2:22
It shows exactly who he is. In stark contrast, he was noticeably friendly to both Kimi Badenoch
2:30
who also attacked Farage yesterday, and the Lib Dem leader, Ed Davey
2:35
Can I just first thank her for her approach and her tone
2:39
in relation to the Henry Novak tragic case? In relation to the case of Henry Novak, can I thank him for the approach that he has taken in this as well
2:53
Nigel Farage looked uneasy in the chamber, but I think that what today really showed is that he has become the central fact in our politics
3:04
Almost everything else going on in Westminster just now, the challenge to Starmer's leadership of the Labour Party
3:10
the urgency of Badenock putting in better performances as Tory leader, the new emphasis from the government on the dramatic fall in migration
3:18
including illegal migration, and now a review of the racial aspect of police training
3:24
all of this leads back to Nigel Farage and a fear in the older parties that he may now be unstoppable
3:32
and that we are on the cusp of a British revolution. If reform wins the Makerfield by-election
3:38
the atmosphere will become almost hysterical. If it doesn't, the mood will change very fast again
3:45
We are living truly close to the edge. First tonight, let's hear from Sadvia Kaur
3:50
the MP for Southampton Test, who went back to her constituency after yesterday's riots
3:56
Sadvia, thank you very much indeed for joining me. And the obvious first question is
4:00
what's the atmosphere now on the streets there? It is terrifying horrible horrific what happened last night And I like many others last night on saw it rolling out on social media and across um our tv screens of these riots and i was really keen
4:21
to to go back home um and be with my community and it was both heartbreaking to hear the stories
4:28
from local residents but also really heartwarming to hear of our community coming together we had
4:33
an incredible cleanup operation early this morning and since the community have been coming together
4:40
and uniting against this. I know that there were I think 11 serious police injuries and the police
4:46
dog injured last night. I hear also that some police officers have been as you were had to change
4:52
where they live. They weren't involved but they are being pursued. Have you also had threats made
4:58
to yourself? I have. I have, which is really sad. And actually, this shouldn't be about me. It
5:06
shouldn't be about individuals. This is about a brutal, evil act. And actually, all of us should
5:14
be united in condemning it, but also all working together to ensure something like this can never
5:19
happen again in Southampton and anywhere else in the country. It did happen in Southampton
5:25
But were most of the people involved from Southampton? No, and actually that was kind of what I heard really loud and clear from local residents
5:33
This absolutely was not neighbour versus neighbour. This was an entire community still in mourning
5:40
The brutal murder of Henry Novak has really shook our community to its core
5:47
And actually hearing the stories from local residents of hundreds of people from outside our city coming inside our city completely intent on causing harm and disruption and violence and vandalism was absolutely horrible
6:03
I've got parents telling me they feel too worried about sending their children out
6:07
I have people picking up glass out of their children's playthings and their helmets
6:14
You know, what they described as a mob coming through ordinarily very peaceful streets where neighbours do get along and work together
6:26
where they're busily texting each other because individuals are going into their properties, picking up whatever they can
6:33
whether it's rocks or bricks and throwing it everywhere, being abused and yelled at
6:37
saying, if you don't join us, you're not patriotic. Absolutely horrible scenes. It doesn't represent
6:42
Southampton. And now our job is to stay united and remain calm. And of course, questions need to be
6:52
answered. And there's a growing concern and those concerns need to be raised. But we need to do it
7:00
calmly and in the proper way. So is your message, if you're worried about two-tier policing
7:05
please don't come to Southampton? My message is that those leaders need to show leadership
7:14
and leadership right now is listening to Henry Novak's family who are desperate to ensure that
7:20
the loss of their son is not weaponised. It doesn't cause further division and spread hay
7:26
But actually, it's a real moment. It's a real moment to come together, to stay united, to stay calm and to work together to ensure something like this never happens again
7:36
We need to address the concerns raised. We need answers to questions. And that's why there's an independent investigation
7:43
Vandalism, crime, disorder is never the solution to this. And rage absolutely is not either
7:49
Final question, Satvia. I think I'm right in saying you're the first female Sikh to be elected to the House of Commons ever
7:55
What's the atmosphere in your community like at the moment? I'm not the very first, but I'm the first to become a minister
8:06
The atmosphere is tense. Community tensions, of course, have risen in Southampton and I know across the country
8:14
And actually, this should be about unity. Everybody should be condemning what happened and all working together to ensure something like this can never happen again And it not about pitting community against community This is about coming together
8:28
And it's really sad to see a rise in hate crime, particularly anti-seek hate crime
8:32
Sure. Thank you very, very much for taking the time to talk to us tonight
8:37
Our deputy political editor, Aggie Sean Brasher, has been taking the temperature around Westminster after that very dramatic prime minister's questions
8:44
Aggie, I thought it was the best performance that Starmer had put in
8:48
He really felt it. What were Labour MPs saying afterwards? I think that word tense that Satvir Kaur just used there has been used a lot to me today
8:57
I think there was a huge amount of anger in the Commons. And I think there was a huge amount of anger in that moment
9:04
And that sort of continued afterwards, too. I spoke to one Liberal Democrat MP
9:09
You could hear them in that moment, too. But one Liberal Democrat MP was sat directly behind Nigel Farage, who said that the moment felt like a new low, said it was tense and said lots of people shouting condemn the violence
9:21
I noticed Mr Farage left Prime Minister's questions very early in the session
9:26
Have you talked at all to Reform about what they make of all of this? Well, it's really interesting because Reform's argument is effectively that Nigel Farage, nobody has asked him to condemn the violence
9:38
If anyone asked him to condemn the violence in Southampton last night, then he would have done a reform
9:43
That's what they were saying in the chamber just now. Indeed, Reform UK themselves, they say, have condemned it and he leads the party
9:49
But as you heard in that clip that you played in the beginning, there were shouts upon shouts upon shouts of people urging him to make that condemnation
9:58
He has done another interview late this afternoon, too, where he has talked about the violent disorder being just the beginning
10:05
and he said that he thinks the division will get far worse
10:09
and because he says large numbers of young white males think the police are prejudiced against them
10:15
But Reform UK also say that it is just simply not true that he is inciting violence
10:19
something that is very much a charge against him from parties all over
10:23
To what extent is he worried about Restore on his right? Because there are people from Restore who say
10:30
that Nigel Farage has gone all wet and pathetic and, you know, real leadership only comes from Restore
10:35
not from reform. Is that part of the calculation going on here? Well, I think that's definitely what some people think is going on. Reform UK rejects that
10:43
characterisation. But of course, you know, we are in a by-election at the moment, a full list
10:48
of course, of candidates on our website. We're in a by-election where it looks like the polling
10:54
has suggested that Restore could do well. And I think Reform UK are very much looking at that
11:00
polling. Very interesting, Aggie. Thank you so much for that. The Associate Editor of the Financial
11:05
Times, Stephen Bush, has been covering this story in its complexity. A very, very interesting piece
11:11
this morning, Stephen. So I'm very glad to have you on the show. Just talk us through your argument
11:16
which is essentially that race may be no part of this at all. So I think it would be helpful for
11:23
everyone to start with the judges' remarks where they set out what happened and what the precise
11:28
nature of the evil crime and the evil lie at the heart of this which is what led to that distressing
11:34
scene we've all seen on the body camera uh where he first stabbed uh i don't know about multiple
11:41
times then he uh and then we're not clear because his brother will of course go through a criminal
11:47
process now that you know once someone's convicted of murder that will have that will there will be
11:51
other live court proceedings coming along soon but his brother then called 999 and if you call
11:57
999, because of course the overwhelming majority of 999 calls are not people spreading
12:06
an untruth in order to cover up a murder. They are the truth. When the
12:09
police turn up, they will have the information from the call handler, and they will treat
12:14
that initially at face value. And when you're faced with two, as the judge set out, superficially
12:19
credible witnesses, the police will then treat the other person as a suspect. And as someone who
12:26
has covered an awful lot of deaths in police custody what often happens in the last moments of someone who dies in police custody is that they will say oh I feel sick I feel ill I can breathe And then because the
12:38
police hear that an awful lot from suspects of whom it's not true. And who are just trying to get
12:43
away. Regrettably, what the police will often do is say, sure you are, mate, as we saw on the
12:49
body cam, or words to that effect. So I think, really, if you actually look at the detail of
12:56
this story in the detail of other cases where the police have made similar mistakes. It's really
13:00
about how we view suspects because in the overwhelming number of 999 calls are not people
13:07
trying to tell an evil lie and should not be treated as such. So I think there's a real risk
13:13
and Westminster now seems to be very, very determined to see everything through this lens of
13:18
oh, it's about racism or it's about anti-racism. Westminster has kind of become quite obsessed with
13:22
race issues, but really this is about more fundamental issues in policing that have been there for a long time. So fundamentally, if there are two people of whatever colour, whatever
13:30
background, who say one thing and one person who says another thing, the police are more likely to
13:35
take the two than the one. Particularly if it's gone along with what's in the 999 call, which was
13:41
the initial call out, which I'm sure many people have seen the transcript of. Second, just quoting
13:45
the judge again, it's very dark. Henry was wearing a dark tunic or link. It's very hard to see knife
13:52
entry wounds, it's very hard for the police to know what's happened. It's not necessarily
13:56
the case that they were being ridiculous. It's not necessarily the case. It's
14:00
right, of course, that there is an IOPC investigation, partly because after that
14:04
first call, which is why they were there, there was an initial call, another call
14:08
from some of his neighbours. Now, it's of course possible that if the control room had
14:12
expedited that information to the police when they were en route, they would have acted
14:16
differently. But, in terms of police procedure, the police will take the report from the call handler
14:23
and then the witness as the ground truth which they then of course quickly established
14:28
within three minutes that that was not true but of course those three minutes led to those
14:31
awful and distressing scenes in that truly horrible way for Henry Noeck tonight. I thought the
14:36
Tory leader, Kemi Badenock, spoke really, really well about this yesterday but she's subsequently written in a way
14:42
that you are critical of, particularly when it comes around to saying let's make this a Stephen
14:45
Lawrence moment. Yeah, so I think Kemi Badenock was right to say that look
14:49
we shouldn't have a culture war over this but her A comparison with the killing of Stephen Lawrence, which we shouldn't forget, it wasn't until 2012
14:58
He was murdered in 1993. Due to the Metropolitan Police handling of that investigation, the suspects were able to destroy key bits of information
15:09
Of those suspects, only two have ever been successfully charged. Again, this is not to defend everything the Hampshire Police did
15:16
But they realised the truth of what was going on within three minutes. as the judge set out, he was not able to destroy key evidence
15:23
which is clearly what he wanted to do. He had taken away his phone
15:28
He had clearly planned to destroy evidence and cover up his crime. So in terms of the systematic failings we saw
15:34
from the Metropolitan Police in 1993 and what we're seeing, they just aren't particularly comparable
15:40
If we want to learn the lessons of this horrific tragedy, we do have to first understand what actually happened
15:46
And I think Kemie Baden-Ock's comparison is not particularly helpful in that endeavour
15:51
There may or may not be some kind of two-tier policing going on. That's a huge sort of philosophical and a very detailed and difficult argument
15:58
But your case is that this particular terrible incident doesn't demonstrate it
16:03
Yeah, so I think, for example, the police's anti-racism document, which assumes essentially that any disparity, any ethnic disparity
16:11
is something we should aim away from, is, I think, a bad document and is not a good idea
16:16
The average ethnic minority in this country is about 20 years younger than the average white British person
16:22
Now, essentially, as we get older, we commit different types of crime
16:26
Older criminals are more likely to do fraud. Younger criminals are more likely to do violent crime
16:31
So actually, we shouldn't be that worried about disparity. So I think that document is problematic and should be reviewed
16:37
But in terms of this case, no, I don't think it is evidence of that problem. Stephen Bush, really interesting
16:42
Thanks very, very much indeed for coming in
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