Up next in 10
Labour MPs draw up 'Pestminster' list of MPs accused of inappropriate behaviour. A team of senior Labour MPs, staffers and special advisers is preparing to quietly pass Andy Burnham's team the list in a bid to end the 'Westminster boys club' in his incoming government. The list, seen by LBC, contains more than 30 names of top MPs and Peers, including those who have served at the highest levels of government. Insiders involved in compiling it said they wanted the next PM to learn some of the mistakes made under Sir Keir Starmer and ensure no scandals would bring down the next PM. Baroness Harriet Harman and LBC's political editor Natasha Clark join Andrew Marr to discuss. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #AndrewMarr #Pestminster #LBC #andyburnham #labour #westminster #ukpolitics LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Andy Burnham is, of course, besieged at the moment with a long list of names of people who want to be part of his government
0:07
But there is also apparently a list of people he's being told should not be part of his government
0:12
Natasha Clarke, LBC's political editor, is here to explain. Natasha. Yes, Andrew, I'm sure you'll remember very well back in 2017, in the wake of the Harvey Weinstein scandal
0:22
there was what's called a Pestminster list that went around Westminster, A list which was compiled by MPs, by staffers, by people working in the Palace of Westminster
0:32
of people essentially that should be avoided, that had had allegations of harassment, of
0:37
bullying behaviour and essentially should be avoided. They used to say NST, not safe in taxes
0:44
Essentially, yes. There used to be a lot of allegations that were floating around. Of course, it did lead eventually to the resignation of the then Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon
0:51
And I can tell you tonight that a new list of possible names is being circulated by female Labour MPs
0:59
They say that they want to stop Andy Burnham from potentially appointing anybody that could be a liability to the next Labour government
1:06
And there are, I'm told, Andrew, and I have seen the list in full, some very top senior people who they are warning Andy Burnham's government
1:13
Please don't go anywhere near this. And the people that I'm told that are compiling this are determined to make sure that any lessons from Keir Starmer's government or any other governments are definitely learnt by the next administration
1:24
This is big stuff, which will cause a huge rumpus. Do you know who's behind it? Are there a group of senior people who are behind it
1:31
Yes, there are a group of senior Labour women who are behind this. I'm told there are plans to pass this list to Andy Burnham's team and to circulate it wider amongst the women's PLP to basically ask people to come forward if they've got any names that they believe should be on that list and that people should be worried about
1:48
And the allegations do range from sort of, you know, bullying behaviour to allegations of sexual harassment
1:55
So there are some serious allegations here. And obviously it is up to MPs whether they want to discuss those names in public
2:04
But they are going to be quietly passed, I'm told, to Team Burnham to basically warn him
2:08
They don't want another Mandelson scandal. They don't want anybody caught up in the next government to be embarrassing them in any way
2:15
Now, you know the names, I'm sure. Is LBC going to publish them? Not going to publish them
2:20
We don't believe that this is sort of something that we should be doing at this point
2:24
But we do are encouraging anybody that wants to come forward to learn about the..
2:30
And if they've got allegations that they want to put forward, we get the time. These allegations are real and not purely rumour, as it were. Surely they should be passed to the parliamentary authorities
2:40
I can pass them to the parliamentary authorities if we believe that that meets the threshold
2:44
And I have been in touch with the Labour MPs on that list. And like I say, there are some very serious allegations on this list
2:52
Like I say, this is why we're not publishing it. We don't want to sort of make allegations of people
2:57
That's why we're not legally doing that. But I think that this story really is important Andrew because it is just a warning message for governments of the future And we know that obviously this is not just a Labour Party issue And I should say that this is not a Labour Party list It a cross party list So it is something that goes across all the political parties And it obviously something which has troubled many
3:19
many other governments. We know that there are obviously, unfortunately, in all walks of life
3:24
this does unfortunately happen. It is not just linked to any political party, but this is a group
3:29
of people who are worried about sleaze potentially making its way into a potential government and are
3:34
trying to do their best to stop it. A big, big story, Natasha. Congratulations and thanks for
3:39
coming in and telling us about it. Now then, in these eventful times, as we get ever closer to
3:44
Burnham in number 10, let's hear the thoughts of one of the most senior Labour figures at Westminster
3:48
former mother of the House and co-host of the podcast Electoral Dysfunction, Lady Harriet Harman
3:54
Harriet, welcome to the studio. First of all, your reaction to this story. Is this the kind of thing
3:59
that Andy Burnham should be careful about? Well, I think that somebody who's engaged in sexual harassment or bullying
4:06
should definitely not be a minister, which is an important public office
4:10
But actually, they shouldn't even be in Parliament. We shouldn't have any MPs that are behaving like that
4:15
because bullying and sexual harassment makes people's lives a misery. They can't do their work properly and nobody should suffer
4:23
that sort of situation when they go into work. I think, and you put your finger on it about people reporting to the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner, you can actually report to the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner, even if it's like a third party basis
4:40
It wasn't me, but I saw this happening or it wasn't me, but I've been told it's happened
4:43
But actually, often people get to know about things. But the person who's been the victim of this says, please, whatever you do, don't tell the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner, because the only person who could have said it would have been me
4:58
And then I'll lose my job. And this is the difficulty of a situation where there's such a hierarchy and where the hierarchy has previously hitherto always been overwhelmingly male
5:10
I think that it just reminds us that women are kind of outsiders still, even though they are very many more women in Parliament than used to be
5:21
And that women who are lower down in hierarchy, if they're, you know, working as assistants, it's the old, old story
5:28
offices. It's the old, old story. So I think, you know, Andy Burnham will want to redouble his
5:33
efforts to make sure that these sorts of things can be reported, are reported and that those who
5:40
are victims are supported. And it's a clean modern administration. Well, absolutely. And that these
5:45
people have got no place in the Labour Party, in Parliament, let alone on the front bench. But I'm
5:51
interested that Natasha said that it was a cross-party situation because quite often there
5:57
is talk amongst young women staffers who might be working for different parties, but they've all
6:05
got one thing in common, which is they're afraid of getting in a lift with this particular person
6:10
And it's so demoralising when one of these scandals breaks and everybody says
6:14
oh we all knew about that We not surprised about that And that the problem is making sure that it actually doesn happen And that one of the reasons why I suggesting and I hope Andy Burnham will support it that there should be an official cross caucus of women MPs
6:30
like they have in Holyrood in Scottish Parliament, like they have in Australia
6:34
where things that affect women particularly in Parliament, MPs, but also they'll be concerned about women's staff
6:42
that they should actually be an official women's caucus in Parliament where they can..
6:47
That's really interesting. I hadn't heard about that before. And I don't want to elide the two stories because I don't think it's fair
6:53
But there's also been a suggestion that Andy Burnham should try to appoint a sort of 50-50 male-female government
7:00
In other words, I think that it is the same story. It is the same story because it's about women actually having their rightful place on equal terms with men
7:09
And there are 50-50 women in the population. So not in the parliamentary Labour Party
7:14
No, because the Parliamentary Labour Party and Parliament as a whole has yet to catch up with where the public are
7:20
But I think what you have to do is you have to be deliberative about this
7:24
You can't simply wait until by a process of evolution over centuries or decades, some women will fight their way to the top
7:33
You've got to say we've just got to be ensuring that the country can look into our government and see that there are equal numbers of women and men working in partnership together on equal terms
7:44
So I agree with that proposal. I don't want to be offensive in any way, but some people would say that women still don't have quite as sharp elbows as men when it comes to the top
7:53
And that's maybe why we're reading a whole long list of likely, you know, chancellors and foreign secretaries and this and that, most of whom are men, some of whom are men who have known each other for a very long time
8:03
And there are relatively few women still being talked about. Well, I think that this is something for men to think about
8:08
I think that we all know about male ambition and I'm very supportive of people being ambitious in their party
8:15
But I think that what we need is male allyship so that we need the men competing with how much support they're giving to women in the party
8:26
And that's one of the problems is we've never had a woman leader of the Labour Party
8:32
We regard ourselves as the party of women and equality. And yet we've never had a leader and the Tories have managed about four
8:38
And I think that what we need to do is for the men to look themselves in the mirror and just say, I'm going to support the best woman in this situation
8:47
And that's where I'm going to compete, not compete to push the woman out of the way, because women are still relatively new in politics
8:55
And does that mirror suggestion apply to people, you know, like David Miliband and Ed Balls and others from the past who want to come in back, may want to come into the government through the House of Lords
9:07
and, you know, and as it were, bring the band back together again
9:12
Well, I think it is important to draw on experience. And obviously, David Miliband has got great experience
9:19
and Ed Miliband is actually in the cabinet. But I think it's also important to look to the future
9:25
Sometimes I think people look back and think, oh, my goodness me, everybody in that Blair Brown cabinet they were absolutely brilliant Well you know some of them were and some of them weren And some of the people in today generation are going to be looked back on and we going to think how absolutely great they were
9:41
So I think Andy Burnham will be wanting to get a balance of that experience
9:45
but also bringing forward the new talent, like, for example, my successor
9:49
Miata Fandula, who is, you know, an absolute blazing trail, which I'm very proud of
9:55
Let me end by asking you something much more general, which is that you were very, very involved in past Labour governments
10:01
You know the Labour Party inside out. You know the Labour Party in Parliament inside out
10:05
If I was Andy Burnham and I'd say, just give me some general advice, I'm in this very, very difficult and unusual position
10:10
of trying to throw together a government under huge speed and under huge pressure, only a few days to do it
10:16
Have you got any thoughts that might help? Absolutely none. I think he's got the right people around him
10:23
He's got Lou Haig advising him, at his side. He's got James Purnell, who's going to be running number 10. He's had years of experience
10:31
in running the Greater Manchester Mayoralty, as well as experience in the Cabinet. So I think
10:38
what I want to give him is not my advice, but give him my support. But I might well be giving
10:43
him my advice on women and girls, because I think there isn't a man on this planet who doesn't need
10:47
a woman in his ear reminding him that actually, you know, it's a meritocracy when women are on
10:54
equal terms with men. And unless you think men are just so much better than women, which we don't
10:59
then women need to have their place. We don't, he said carefully. We as well
11:04
Final question, Harriet. You were on the, in fact, you chaired the Standards Committee for a while at
11:10
the time of Partygate and all the rest of it. Just your reaction to reform saying that this is a kangaroo
11:16
court they're facing. Well, I think the reality about the Standards Committee is that they are
11:22
there because Parliament wants to make sure that our politics is not bought by people buying their
11:30
MPs and then MPs lobbying because they've been paid millions of pounds in secret and people don't
11:36
even know about it. It's to keep our politics clean and democratic and the Standards Committee
11:42
is there to enforce the rules that Parliament as a whole has agreed and every MP signs up to
11:50
Nobody's forced to be an MP, but if they become an MP, they have got to keep to the standards that the parliamentary code of conduct requires
12:00
And that code of conduct applies to everybody, including Nigel Farage. You don't get a free pass to say, well, the rules have to apply to everybody else, but not to me
12:12
I mean, that is the Trump playbook. And I can tell you one thing about the Standards Committee is they will do their job absolutely forensically
12:19
absolutely based on the evidence. They will not talk about what they're doing
12:24
They will look at all the evidence they can get and then they will make a fair judgment
12:28
and they will make a judgment which is fair to Nigel Farage
12:32
who's been the subject of these accusations, but also wants to keep high standards
12:37
Yeah. All right. Well, that may be the problem, of course. Lady Harman, Harriet Harman
12:42
thank you very, very much indeed for coming in and talking to me
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