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Following the resignation of Sir Keir Starmer, Andrew Marr brings on two former Labour leaders to reflect on his premiership. 5:35 | Lord Neil Kinnock tells Andrew that Starmer resigned due to his "really seriously bad judgments” adding, "his greatest flaw is his inability to appoint really effective, honest, independently minded advisors.” 13:17 | Jeremy Corbyn recalls how he was ousted by his predecessor, and gives his honest and frank assessement on his time in charge. Corbyn also reveals whether there might be a way back into the Labour Party for him under Andy Burnham. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #LAbour #andyburnham #LBC #keirstarmer #ukpolitics #generalelection #neilkinnock LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
It's done
0:01
The question my party is asking now is whether I am best placed to lead us into the next general election
0:12
I have heard the answer of my parliamentary party to that question
0:19
And I accept that answer with good grace. Every decision I've taken has been about putting the country I love first
0:30
That is why I will resign as leader of the Labour Party
0:35
There were no apologies in the Prime Minister's resignation speech, nor Keir Starmer's thoughts about where the government and the country should be going next
0:44
And I think to describe the Labour Party under his predecessor, Jeremy Corbyn
0:48
as morally bankrupt will upset a lot of Labour MPs. But this is a day for generosity, not for carping
0:56
and the PM's behaviour has been marked by grace, speed and realism
1:01
He will be remembered more kindly than perhaps seems likely right now
1:06
He has real achievements under his belt. The election victory, handling Trump, cutting child poverty
1:14
But he was never really a politician. Not in the avid, sharp-elbowed, argument-hungry, naturally manipulative sense
1:22
that all the most successful leaders I have known, from Margaret Thatcher to Tony Blair, have been
1:28
How will Andy Burnham do? And for those of you saying, too early to say it's going to be Burnham
1:34
what about the contest to come? I would say pretty much forget all that
1:39
He has the wind at his back, blowing strongly from the north, and the momentum and numbers he needs
1:46
He seems, right now, unbeatable. Wes Streeting, the other obvious candidate, thinks so too and has backed him today saying we could spend the summer exaggerating small
1:58
differences or we can roll up our sleeves and help him to deliver the change our party and our
2:04
country needs. Despite all of that you're going to hear over the next days and weeks lots of
2:11
hostility to Burnham. You'll be told he wasn't much of a minister back in the day. You'll be told
2:17
He keeps changing his mind. You'll be told he's a backstabber, grabbing the top job undemocratically
2:24
I would just say, let's pause and wait and see. He has changed a lot from his days as a young politician in Westminster
2:33
Here is what he told me a few years ago about his own journey. At some point, would you like to be leader of the Labour Party and change this country
2:41
Well, I have stood twice. And so obviously I think people would think I was not being honest with you if I said I never wanted to
2:48
Of course. I'm lucky, we were saying. Well, who knows? But, you know, one day I would, you know, I've got a really important job to do here
2:55
I am in the middle of a second term and I'm serving a full second term
2:59
But if at some point in the future, beyond all of this, it was felt that I could do something to support the party, I would
3:09
But I only go back to deal with some of the issues that I was talking about before
3:13
That fundamental rewiring of Britain is what I'd be going back to do
3:18
I learned in my time there, and I don't think people really saw me, really
3:23
because the thing about it, it wasn't my natural habitat. There is always the bit of me that has the imposter syndrome
3:30
Really? Yeah, always. I think anybody from these parts has that. When I went to Cambridge, when I went into Parliament, you have that
3:38
What am I doing here? Yeah, someone's going to tap me on the shoulder and throw me out. And I've always kind of had a sense of that
3:43
So it took me a while to find my sort of confidence, if you like, as an MP
3:50
but then subsequently as a minister. I mean, it was over Hillsborough, actually, where I, in the end, found my voice
3:56
because I had been going, let's be honest, up that greasy pole
4:00
and saying what I thought needed the party wanted me to say, doing what I thought, you know, loyal sort of
4:06
And in the end, that was the moment where I had to kind of confront myself
4:11
That guy? Yes, he has changed his mind politically. So has almost everybody else you can think of
4:20
And the ones who never change at all are often the ones who cause the most damage
4:25
As to Backstabber, that is absolutely unfair. He's always made his thoughts on Starmer and the leadership clear
4:32
and he had the courage to put his career where his mouth was and fight a by-election which was by no means a safe bet
4:39
He's been out in the open. And at least compared to some of the Tory changes of leaders
4:44
the voters were directly involved. Yes only one constituency but one of the parts of the country which has felt left behind and ignored by Westminster And here he is today swearing in as their new MP
5:07
I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles
5:18
his heirs and successors, according to law. So, cards on the table
5:24
I think we are going to see real change. I think we're going to have a more persuasive leader
5:29
someone who actually likes a fight, likes to make arguments and to win them
5:34
And speaking of natural fighters, let's kick off tonight with a former Labour leader
5:39
Lord Neil Kinnock. Neil, first of all, your thoughts on the departing Prime Minister
5:45
I thought today he showed, first of all, his absolutely irrepressible sense of duty
5:52
And the reason that he went today, and it came across very clearly from the front of
5:57
10 Downing Street, his horror of chaos. And when he made those statements last week, my conclusion was, if he thought he could avoid
6:10
chaos or prevent chaos and prolonged, incessant introspection in the Labour Party, he would stay
6:20
But he's come to the conclusion that he can't stop it. So that's why he'll go
6:26
And in doing so, he will be observing his duty. And it's difficult with the tawdryness of politics
6:36
It's difficult for people to grasp. And I understand why. that there is honour, there is duty, there is commitment, there is integrity
6:45
And he showed a lot today. So honour, commitment, integrity, and he listed some real achievements he's done as well
6:52
In which case, why has he gone? What was the problem, do you think? Because the achievements, first of all, weren't rapid enough
7:00
One or two of them were the consequence of changing, which I salute, actually
7:05
It's much better than continuing with an error in life and in politics and government
7:11
But the real reason was really seriously bad judgments, which some of which had a real effect on people's lives, like the withdrawal of the Winterfuel Alliance, happily reversed, like the delay in removing the two-child benefit cup, happily reversed
7:31
And like accepting... Mandelson. Mandelson, exactly. I mean, when the rumor was going on—I'm not saying I told you so, but I did tell you
7:41
so, but—and anybody else would listen—that Peter Mandelson's absolutely obsessive
7:51
attraction to significance, to wealth and power, like a moth to a candle flame, meant
8:01
that whatever his other qualities, he could never be given a responsible job, certainly
8:07
not as an ambassadorial representative. So, how Keir Starmer appointed him is still a puzzle
8:18
It might be. I'll make this just the last point. that his greatest flaw is his inability to appoint really effective, honest, independently-minded advisors
8:36
A lack of curiosity about people. Well, yes. I think that's part of it
8:42
Now, we don't want to enter into amateur psychiatry, do we? But I think that's it
8:48
He's a trusting guy himself. He is very transparent, and he will deal in detail with a case, a subject, an issue
9:02
But he won't pry and poke around to get background facts, certainly not about other people
9:11
because I suppose somewhere he thinks they're probably as honest as he is
9:16
He knows better now. Well, it's a very interesting form of naivety that you don't expect to find mixed in with great maturity
9:26
which is another quality that he demonstrated today again. Let's jump forward to Andy Burnham, who seems almost certain to be the next Prime Minister
9:35
Again, somebody, you know, you know, you've come across in the past. He will have a huge deluge of orduer coming in his direction from the kind of feral online community What would you think about him I think he a very good guy And I also think which is even more important that he has matured in his understanding and in himself as a result of being mayor of Manchester
10:03
He was very capable, highly intelligent, Cambridge graduate, boy from comprehensive school
10:08
all the other things. Imposter syndrome, you told me. Well, yes, and I think that does affect anybody with a natural measure of modesty
10:17
Hell, I've been carrying it around for 60 years, because you really do
10:21
When you find yourself in the company of Nelson Mandela or Mikhail Gorbachev or even Ronald
10:29
Reagan, you think, hey, wait a minute, who's this guy in the West Wing
10:33
So, if you're a normal human being, and he very much is, then you will get that
10:42
But whilst he was accomplished, mainstream, capable minister 20 years ago, he's much more of the finished article
10:56
And I think that what he'll demonstrate is that mixture of audacity without being a terrible gambler, though he took a hell of a risk with Makerfield, absolutely
11:11
And be assertive. What I'd love him to do, of course, which is probably next to impossible, unless your name is Gordon Brown, is take the Treasury by the scruff of the neck
11:23
Well, it's very interesting who he chooses to be chancellor. Yes. Of course, that's his first big choice
11:27
He talked to me there about wanting to comprehensively rewire the British state
11:31
What do you make of that? Well, I think it makes – it's a phrase I've heard him use before
11:36
I think it means broadly two things. One is he wants to introduce much greater equity into our system, our tax system, for instance
11:49
I mean, the idea of – Wealth taxes rather more than income taxes. Not so much that, because asset taxes are much more direct and straightforward
11:59
But what he could do, and this has been in circulation, is equalise capital gains tax and income tax rates
12:09
That would bring in 12 billion and be entirely equitable. The second thing is he wants to promote some constitutional change
12:17
That's what he means by Manchester rising. Absolutely. Very important. Two very quick questions
12:22
First of all, should there be a contest? I don't really mind because I think West Streeting really nailed it today
12:31
Really not much point in spending the summer debating small issues of divergence
12:38
I mean, I think that's very grown up. And I think that, therefore, if Andy is unopposed but takes pains to explain himself and his purposes
12:50
then that will compensate for the absence of debate. And following on from that, shouldn't there be an early general election
12:59
No, of course they shouldn't. I mean, I did a count this morning, actually, not because I knew you were going to ask me that
13:05
Eight Tory prime ministers since the war have become residents of number 10 without an election
13:13
So they've got a bloody cheek calling for it now, I have to say
13:16
Keir Starmer changed the fortunes of the Labour Party within five years
13:21
In a nod to his predecessor in his resignation speech over this morning, he described the party then as morally bankrupt when he took over
13:29
Earlier, I asked Jeremy Corbyn, the former leader, what his response was to those words
13:35
I was extremely angry about it. I was proud to be elected and to lead the Labour Party, elected twice to lead it
13:42
proud of the policies we developed, all of which were endorsed by Keir Starmer
13:46
and when I stepped down from leader of the Labour Party, the party had funds, had 600,000 members
13:55
and it had policies that were actually individually very popular across the country about social redistribution and so on
14:03
The idea it's morally bankrupt is a really disgraceful comment to make
14:07
Keir Starmer, when he became Labour leader, seemed to go along with quite a few of the policies that you had championed
14:13
When did you realise that he was going in a very radically different direction
14:18
By the summer of 2020, when he started making complaints and so on
14:25
having said that I was apparently his best friend, which was news to me, but there you go
14:30
He then, as you know, suspended me from membership, and then I was reinstated on membership
14:36
and then seems to spend an awful lot of time complaining about my time in the leadership Now anyone can disagree That fine That what politics is about But to call it morally bankrupt and call the party financially bankrupt is nonsense
14:50
The party had funds. It had just come out of a general election campaign
14:54
We'd actually paid off all the debts during my leadership, inherited from Tony Blair's leadership
15:01
And we got the membership up to the highest in Europe of 600,000
15:05
I don't know what it is now, but I would say it's well south of 200,000
15:10
A lot of people say they don't quite understand what Keir Starmer's politics amounts to
15:16
Can I put it to you that the answer might be, I'm against that Jeremy Corbyn
15:20
That seems to be a very strong, motivating force for him. It's become weirdly personal, almost
15:26
Well, I don't do personal in politics, as you know, so it's a bit of a one-way street in that sense
15:31
What I would just say is this. We have the honour of being elected to a public political position
15:38
I had the honour of leading the Labour Party, and he's had that honour as well. Our duty at the end of it is to try to have fewer children going hungry, fewer homeless people, less inequality in our society, and making a contribution for peace around the world
15:53
It's probably a day for sort of reconciliation or something. Any message to him as he leaves
15:59
Think very hard of the decisions you've made and the people that you've allowed to direct those decisions
16:08
The world is a dangerous place. I get that. I absolutely get that
16:12
Instead of spending more and more on arms, let's put more and more effort into trying to bring about diplomacy and peace
16:19
And let's look forward as well. It seems almost certain that Andy Burnham will be the next Prime Minister
16:24
What are your thoughts about him? Do you see possibly a way back for yourself under a Burnham leadership
16:28
I don't think Andy or anyone else is sort of thinking in those terms
16:33
but I've worked with Andy. I know him quite well, and he was in my shadow cabinet
16:39
and indeed we did 45 debates together during the leadership campaign in 2015
16:45
And at the end of it, we knew each other's speeches so well, we'd correct each other if we'd missed a light or two out
16:50
And so, yes, and he is personable and so on. What I hope Andy will recognise is
16:57
and I'm sure he does understand this, that the levels of poverty and inequality in Britain are enormous
17:03
and he has done what he can as mayor to address that
17:07
So we need some fundamental change. We don't need to be blaming the welfare system
17:12
and the welfare state for our economic problems. We need to be looking at the levels of poverty and inequality
17:17
and the waste of talent in poverty and underachievement in education that's there
17:23
I think Andy understands that, but I want to hear from him what he's going to do about it
17:28
I want to hear from him what he's going to do about arms to Israel and the genocide in Gaza
17:34
He has said to the voters of Makerfield in terms, I'm going to come back and I'm going to direct more power
17:41
and more wealth in your direction. That suggests to me that there is going to have to be quite a shift
17:47
Perhaps we're talking about wealth taxes. Perhaps we're talking about a shift of resources
17:51
from the wealthier parts of the South to the North and the Midlands. Is that the kind of thing you'd be wanting
17:56
I would think that would be very much in his thinking. And I remember quite a long discussion with him before he put his hat in the ring to become the mayor of Greater Manchester
18:07
And he is very committed to the idea of serious devolution. I've got a lot of sympathy with that because the country is very, South East London, et cetera, dominated
18:18
That we know. But it's also a very unequal society. And I think that devolution is important
18:25
And John MacDonald and I worked this out a lot. When we wanted a national investment bank, we wanted regional investment banks
18:31
so to make sure decision-making was local. So big infrastructure projects are decided as far as they can be regionally and locally
18:39
So I do think there'll be a lot into devolution here. And that, I think, will generally be a good thing
18:45
Final question. There is already, and perhaps inevitably, a kind of growing chorus for an early general election
18:51
Where do you stand on that? I think it's extremely unlikely there would be an early general election if, just it's still an if, but if Andy Burnham becomes prime minister early July unopposed, then he's elected as prime minister by the parliamentary Labour Party
19:11
We have a parliamentary, not a presidential system, so he's no requirement to call a general election
19:15
He might say, well, actually, I would like to get a mandate on my own terms. You don't think there's an overwhelming ought in this
19:22
No, I don't think there is an overwhelming pressure for it. And certainly on the streets in my constituency this morning
19:28
nobody said anything about a general election. They said a lot of things about the weather, though, which is very, very hot
19:34
Jeremy Corbyn, thank you very much. You're welcome, Andrew. Thank you
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