Up next in 10
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 22nd of June, 2026. 00:00 – Keir Starmer resigns as Prime Minister and leader of Labour Party 48:45 - What made Starmer's premiership so brittle? 02:01:52 – Windrush Day: campaigners demand government-funded legal aid for victims - Louise Huie & Pauline Campbell Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jamesobrien #politics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Good morning, it's three minutes after ten and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
0:07
on a morning where we greet and respond to what I'm afraid has to be described as yet
0:12
another prime ministerial resignation, yet another changing of the guard at Downing Street
0:18
The ten years since the Brexit vote, which of course hits its anniversary tomorrow, have
0:23
if not coincidentally, seen an extraordinary disruption to the democratic order, which has changed everything
0:32
We may have a little look later in the programme about some of the most notable elements of that change
0:39
whether or not we're seeing a continuing sort of reverberation from a democratic deficit
0:46
or whether there is something subtler or more sinister going on. But Keir Starmer has gone
0:51
and many people will now be wondering whether they wanted him to go after all
0:57
Many people will be celebrating or at least cautiously greeting the possibility
1:01
of a new prime minister, or not the possibility, the inevitability of a new prime minister
1:08
And you don't know, don't worry, I'm not doing Joni Mitchell yet
1:13
you don't know how you're going to respond to something until it happens, do you
1:17
You just don't. I'd like whether it's your favourite football team's manager resigning
1:22
or whether it's a Prime Minister announcing that he's going to walk the plank. Until it actually happens, you cannot completely crystallise your thoughts
1:31
which I think is what we will do first this morning. I don't have a particularly leading question
1:37
I just want to know what your... I mean, I will have questions in the course of the morning
1:41
Most obviously, where did it all go wrong? The biggest thing, if you like
1:46
But I think it's important to remember that Keir Starmer has gone
1:50
because his own party, his own colleagues, his own parliamentary party have essentially delivered the death note
1:57
They have told him that he can't go on. So for all the absurdity of our media
2:02
and for all the viciousness of people in the Labour movement to the left of him
2:08
he's gone because his own workforce have essentially said they don't want him to be their boss anymore
2:16
I'll read you two quick texts that sum up what I'm trying to address
2:19
The first from Rich. The loony lefties get their own way, James. Burnham will be in the same position this time next year
2:25
That's one vote of Labour have now lost. Labour backbenchers will always ruin the party
2:30
That's from Rich in Doncaster. Danny, who's currently in Spain, however, writes
2:34
this is a win for the right-wing bots, I think, James. And the pundits and parties alike
2:38
The next general election will be fought on emotions, not policies or facts
2:42
as with Brexit, I fear we may get the same result. So, two people there, both paying attention
2:50
both possessed of above-average intelligence, I would suggest by the fact that they're listening to this programme
2:56
and not issuing an application for Idiot's Corner, but both convinced that it's all the fault of the left
3:01
and, simultaneously, that it's all the fault of the right. And they're both right, in a way
3:05
But the central point, the crucial point is, it's the Parliamentary Labour Party
3:11
that have pulled the plug. It is his colleagues that have pulled the plug
3:16
I suspect this weekend was spent marvelling at the absence of any rearguard action whatsoever
3:24
Keir Starmer does not have and did not have a faction in his own party
3:30
The people upon whom you can rely to fight your corner come hell or high water, come rain or shine
3:37
The blind loyalists, if you like, the proponents of footballification, all those things we've talked about in a variety of other contexts
3:45
over the course of the last few years, came into absolutely irresistible focus over the course of the weekend
3:52
where nobody really stuck up for him. When you've got an Uber loyalist like Peter Kyle
3:57
whose cabinet career is almost certainly over, prevaricating and equivocating and failing to offer
4:03
the full-throated words of support that Keir Starmer was, if not expecting, then probably hoping for
4:09
then you know the game is up. You know the game is over
4:13
So please don't make me be that guy who has to remind you every 20 seconds
4:18
that this is a reaction to the behaviour and the views of his own party
4:24
And of course those views will have been influenced by outside factors
4:28
But when push comes to shove, if Labour MPs wanted him to stay
4:33
Keir Starmer would be Prime Minister for the foreseeable future. They do not want him to stay, therefore he is going
4:41
What they want next, it's almost certainly Andy Burnham, but we will wait and see
4:46
So, as you prepare to tell me what you're, especially if I may
4:52
if you've been slightly taken by surprise by your reaction this morning
4:56
I was quite deflated, and I don't often do this, because I think being entirely sincere and authentic on the radio
5:03
is the very least that I can do for you every day. I'm conscious of not wanting to come on the radio
5:08
feeling and sounding entirely deflated. And it's not a deflation born of disappointment, by the way
5:14
Not necessarily, although I may examine my own feelings further as I invite you to do the same
5:19
It's a deflation born of fatigue, I think. Just that sense, the greatest hope I had two years ago
5:27
was that we would just be a little bit calm for a while. Even if things weren't perfect
5:32
the bloke who got the Ming vase across the ice rink would perhaps just be able to deliver a semblance of normality
5:41
I can't believe quite how nostalgic I am for the days of John Major
5:46
a politician who I was ideologically opposed to, but whose dullness somehow represents a halcyon period in British politics
5:55
when the Prime Minister felt able to prioritise traffic cones on motorways
6:01
as an area for major public intervention. These days, everything feels crazy
6:06
One factor that we'll no doubt discuss later in the program is the role that social media has played
6:10
in the toxification of our discourse. Do you know, he put up a perfectly pleasant
6:14
and rather charming Father's Day message on Facebook yesterday. And the abuse, and remember, on Facebook
6:20
you kind of have to use your own name. So the days of Billy Bunch of numbers with a bulldog avatar dominating
6:25
the poisonous side of discourse in this country are far behind us, thanks to Mark Zuckerberg
6:31
and Elon Musk. Imagine just putting up a picture of your dead father and stressing how important it is to you to be a good dad
6:38
And then British people displaying British values or Judeo-Christian values or whatever lies they tell themselves as they disappear ever deeper into a vat of bile
6:49
Just attack a man for, and from all corners of politics, well from two corners of politics, from both extremes
6:56
attack a man who is simply expressing love for his father and love for his children on Father's Day
7:03
That's where we are now. That's who we are. Or at least it's who they are. And the rest of us still, in many ways, dance to their tune
7:11
So, what is your reaction? I've got no greater question for you this morning
7:16
Not at ten o'clock. I want you to tell me how you respond as a human being to this story
7:21
Because oddly as a human being I responded to that vile vitriol that bile and vitriol on Facebook yesterday in a surprisingly visceral way I really did for the first time in a long time find myself thinking that
7:36
God, you understand how all the really bad stuff happens, don't you? It happens because of people you know
7:41
It doesn't happen because of people who somehow turn up when things are bad
7:46
or who have been in hibernation. It happens because of people you know
7:50
The really ugly human feelings, the really ugly human emotions, that rise to the surface in times of crisis
7:58
carefully manipulated ugliness and viciousness and cruelty. It's there. It could be in your own family
8:05
It could be in your own workplace. It could be sitting next to you right now. You could be looking at this
8:10
You know it's there. And that was my first reaction to the Father's Day post yesterday
8:15
And I think it still influences my reaction to Keir Starmer's resignation. Just that idea that here is a man more sinned against than sinning
8:22
who had to go, not least because he'd lost the support of his own team
8:27
his own team, his dressing room, the chairman, all of them, have decided that he has to go
8:31
But I worry that we'll look back upon this as evidence of what the country has become
8:36
rather than as evidence of what Keir Starmer did or didn't do
8:41
But it's 12 minutes after 10, and you know how often I've changed my mind about this bloke
8:45
over the course of the last few years. I will, no doubt, change it again. So let's listen to what he actually had to say just a few moments ago outside number 10 Downing Street at that lectern
9:00
It's about three minutes, two minutes and 45 seconds, after which we'll probably take a hydration break and I'll start canvassing your immediate reactions to it
9:09
With no caveats and no particular qualifications, except perhaps if you're a little bit surprised by how you feel, let's explore why
9:18
Here is your soon-to-be ex-Prime Minister, Sir Keir Starmer. The question being asked now is not who was best placed to change the Labour Party
9:29
to take us into power and to begin the vital work of improving lives for millions of people
9:36
Those questions have been answered. The question my party is asking now is whether I am best placed to lead us into the next general election
9:51
I have heard the answer of my parliamentary party to that question
9:58
And I accept that answer with good grace. Every decision I've taken has been about putting the country I love first
10:09
That is why I will resign as leader of the Labour Party
10:14
I have spoken to His Majesty the King this morning to inform him of my decision
10:20
I will ask the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party to set out a timetable with nominations opening on the 9th of July and completed by the summer recess
10:31
In the case of a contest, this will ensure a new leader is in place before Parliament returns in September
10:40
I will remain in post as Prime Minister until the contest is complete
10:46
And I will do everything I can to ensure an orderly handover of power
10:52
I will also give my successor my full and unequivocal support, knowing that they will inherit a Britain that is far stronger and fairer
11:02
than the one I inherited two years ago better prepared for the challenges ahead
11:07
and better able to ensure the Labour Party secures a second term in office
11:13
I want to thank all of those friends and colleagues who have been at my side for these past six years or so
11:22
for their incredible commitment, service and support I want to thank the brilliant Number 10 staff and our country's extraordinary civil service
11:32
who dedicate their lives to public service. And when I leave the biggest job in the country, I shall spend more time on the most important job
11:45
Being the best husband I can to my fantastic wife Fig, who has been a rock by my side through good times and bad
11:54
and being the best dad I can to my beautiful children who are my pride and my joy
12:03
Thank you very much. That's when I'd go. That's when I'd wobble
12:09
When I talk about my children. And he wobbled there, possibly the most human we've ever seen him
12:14
And I'm going to say something else before we head to the hydration break, after which Natasha Clarke
12:18
will join us live from Downing Street. I think having a wonderful marriage
12:24
having a wonderful wife at a moment like this must be the single greatest thing you can hope for
12:30
I really do. And I'm glad that, as far as I am aware
12:35
I'm really glad that he does. It's 10.16. James O'Brien on LBC
12:40
Relatively young political editor, and yet you've probably counted more prime ministers
12:46
in and out of Downing Street in your time as a political journalist
12:49
than some people do in 30 years. What do we think of the latest? Yes, James, I came into political journalism around the time of the Scottish referendum, which genuinely feels to me when British politics went absolutely mad
13:04
And since then, yeah, I've covered every prime minister from David Cameron to now
13:09
And obviously now today we're seeing the fall of yet another one
13:13
Look, we could for hours talk about why British politics now feels the need to clear so many prime ministers so quickly
13:21
And, you know, there's going to be columns and columns written on exactly why that is
13:26
But yes, Keir Starmer, the latest victim to this. You played his resignation speech just a few minutes ago
13:32
And I was very struck. And, you know, I feel very sad to hear the sort of sadness in his voice when he was talking about his wife
13:39
talking about his children and the job that he now returns to to try to be the best dad and husband that he can
13:45
Listing all of what he thought were Labour's biggest achievements in his just under two years in office
13:51
talking about, you know, raising kids out of child poverty, talking about cutting immigration
13:57
growing the economy, putting Britain back on a stable footing. So he does have, many of his allies say, a really big record to show for that
14:06
But he does become one of the Labour Party's shortest serving prime ministers with his resignation today
14:13
And of course, he will technically remain as prime minister. We don't know how long he will remain as prime minister
14:17
It all depends on this leadership contest that's to come. But yes, a very sad day for Sir Keir Starmer
14:23
He kept glancing over to all of the staff, all of his cabinet colleagues who were standing just outside number 12 Downing Street behind me
14:31
watching him give that resignation speech this morning. And so many of them looked really crestfallen, really, to be here in this position just two years after that historic landslide
14:41
And, you know, we were on air, James, weren't we, when Keir Starmer was in Downing Street
14:45
coming into Downing Street for the first time as Prime Minister just under two years ago
14:50
after that historic general election on July the 4th. And you know the cheers the smiles the hope the optimism that was there now today completely replaced by gloom and by sadness and obviously reflection of the Prime Minister short time in office and how far it has quickly fallen for this Labour Prime Minister
15:11
Do you think there will be a contest? It's hard to know at this point, James
15:18
So what Keir Starmer said this morning, and we should say that it's partly shaped by him, but it's partly out of his hands
15:23
So he said that he will open nominations on July the 9th and he'll tell the Labour NEC, the National Executive Committee, to do that
15:31
Now, it's interesting that because essentially he's not today saying that he's going to hand the reins over straight to Andy Burnham
15:37
There is going to be no Blair Brown style stitcher behind the closed doors of Number 10 Downing Street
15:43
So what we can deduce from that is actually I think that Keir Starmer is potentially hampering Andy Burnham's leadership bid today
15:50
because he knows that Andy Vernon will be coming down from Manchester to London today
15:54
with momentum, with a spring in his step, with the message that he delivered on Friday night in Bakerfield
16:00
and of course will do, I'm sure, when he's sworn in to the House of Commons later on
16:05
that he is the guy that potentially can beat Nigel Farage, can beat the Reform Party
16:09
But the longer that Keir Starmer makes him wait, the more chance I think there is that other people will want to throw their hats into the ring
16:16
whether that is West Streeting, Al Khan, John Healy or others. I think that essentially waiting a couple of weeks
16:22
which is what Keir Starmer is urging today, is probably going to cost Andy Burnham that vital momentum
16:29
Equally, Team Andy Burnham has said that they do not want him to be in place until just before the Labour Party conference
16:34
And that does fit a little bit with the time table that Keir Starmer set out today
16:38
He hopes that a new Labour leader and a new Prime Minister will be in position by September, by the time that MPs come back from their summer break
16:46
So ready to take them in to the next Labour Party contest. So what might happen next
16:51
Essentially, we're waiting to hear who will stand. We know that Andy Burnham has said that he wants to stand
16:56
and that he won't trigger a leadership race. But now essentially one has been triggered because Keir Starmer has resigned
17:02
I imagine that Andy Burnham will stand. We wait to hear whether West Street or any other Labour leadership contender
17:08
any other MP can get those 81 MPs needed to be in this race
17:13
And like I say, that won't happen until July the 9th. So we are now in a little bit of a waiting game
17:18
And it's going to be very odd. Keir Starmer is now a lame duck prime minister
17:21
We've got a couple of weeks where essentially everything could happen. Maybe we see a situation where essentially no other leadership rivals decide to stand
17:30
They decide the momentum is with Andy Vernon. Maybe Wes Streeting does a deal with Andy Vernon for a top job in his cabinet and decides not to stand at all
17:38
But we now will wait to see what happens there before that Labour leadership race kicks off
17:42
And we have been in a shadow leadership race for a long time, James. So I guess this is just a continuation of what we've seen the last few weeks
17:48
Although possibly harder to say anything with confidence than it was a week ago, I think
17:53
given the size of Andy Burnham's victory in Makerfield and the speed of Keir Starmer's subsequent change of heart about being determined to fight on
18:01
Natasha, thank you. I think your helicopter has arrived. There's been a lot of background noise in the course of this
18:07
Oh, great. I'll hop on. There we go. So we'll see you back at the studio sooner rather than later
18:11
10.23 is the time. Of course we won't. Natasha will be, well, not in the room where it happens
18:16
to paraphrase Hamilton, but just outside. I'm jotting down questions for later in the programme
18:22
What does Burnham need to do? What really did for Starmer? But a couple of things I need to remind you of
18:26
and please don't make me do this throughout the course of the morning. It's not a zero-sum game
18:31
Just because some people wanted Starmer to stay or some MPs wanted Starmer to stay
18:35
doesn't mean that the momentum, with a small m, thank goodness, hadn't overcome him
18:42
I mean, this doesn't happen by accident. These moments don't sort of creep up on people
18:47
The calls will have been made, the room will have been read, and Starmer's position has become unsustainable
18:54
It was probably unsustainable before Makerfield, absent Andy Burnham getting beaten. But once Andy Burnham won, and once he won in such extraordinary style
19:05
this moment became close to inevitable, and then over the course of the weekend
19:09
when the Prime Minister realised he didn't have the support that he needed
19:13
I'm not going to say any support, but he didn't have anything like the support that he needed to fight on
19:18
then the game was up. I may make a habit of this in the course of the morning
19:22
because it is evidence, I think, of the world in which Keir Starmer sought to govern
19:27
and in which many people now believe it's impossible to govern. So two texts, both at exactly 10.14
19:32
both from people listening to exactly the same programme responding to exactly the same story
19:37
Lisa on the Wirral writes, James, I feel sick. Starmer has been pushed out because he wouldn't let Israel use our military
19:42
bases. Burnham will take us into Israel's genocidal war. We are heading into dark days
19:48
Whereas Terry, listening to the same programme, testing at the same time in response to the same
19:52
story, writes, you're showing sympathy and sycophancy for a man complicit in the mass
19:56
murder of children and genocide, the likes of which has not been seen this century. The only
20:01
country Starmer worked for is Israel, and decent people see that. I'm just going to cautiously
20:08
suggest, Terry, you don't have a monopoly on decency or the ability to recognise
20:12
it when it sits in front of you. An old mate of mine who doesn't
20:16
often comment on politics has been in touch to say I feel sad about Starmer. He was
20:20
a good bloke, but hopeless. Most of us are hopeless and only a few of us are decent
20:26
That's rather brilliant, actually, I think, and hopefully. I mean, it won't give Terry pause
20:32
for thought because people like Terry never pause for thought, but it might give the rest of us
20:36
something to chew on. Let's go to Chester Street in County Durham. David is there
20:40
David, what would you like to say? Well, it was an interesting
20:45
reaction I had this morning. I was expecting to be relieved, but strangely, I had like a
20:51
pang of regret. So, I was kind of reflecting on your comments
20:56
I mean, my position with the Prime Minister has changed up and down, but
20:59
he has had an unusual effect on me in that, like, I've had quite
21:03
the range of responses, you know, and I did find, I mean, I was very frustrated with that
21:07
speaker um we have to do something about that because that was very undignified makes us all
21:12
look ridiculous doesn't it it does yes because i thought it was a very dignified speech um and i
21:18
just it's making me reflect that i think that the situation in british politics is such that
21:22
you know i was actually i was proud and i was proud of for him to be our parliament this morning
21:27
the way he delivered that speech how dignified it was it's a bit late you know i was reflecting on
21:31
I know exactly, it's strange, like, it's really peaked in my opinion, just as he left
21:37
But, um, I do, you know, because you've got the US, you've got the US president tweeting overnight in a crass way about it
21:41
Of course. Um, I think we just, it felt like it was necessary, but I must admit, I'm sat here feeling strangely affected by it
21:48
Because I'm not as big as far as you know about these policies, um, and the dithering. You've got to remind yourself of why we got here
21:54
No, but I know what's happened here. And I think this is probably going to apply to an awful lot of people who listen to this programme
21:59
is you recognize the inevitability of it, the political gravity that rendered it necessary
22:06
And, of course, you remember the things that... I mean, for me, oddly, the digital ID feels much bigger than it did at the time
22:12
because it was really popular until he introduced it. And then it became really unpopular
22:17
And I know there are a million reasons why that happened, but those are the moments that you can't spin your way out of
22:23
Here's a policy. It's really popular. Oh excellent Let do it We did it It suddenly become really unpopular because it got Keir Starmer name on it I think It got to be one of the conclusions you arrive at So all of that is there and will be raked over
22:36
But I think you're responding to his humanity. I think you could write 5,000 words
22:44
Yeah, you could write 5,000 words about the policies and the politics of it, but you just saw a bloke who's gutted
22:50
And you responded to that like a warm, empathetic human being. The thing is, though, I mean, I follow British politics
22:57
I'm interested, you know, and usually I've got a position on most prime ministers because to a degree it's more of the same, you know, one in, one out, kind of
23:04
But there's something about that man that is, I don't know, like how does my position on him vary so much
23:12
I don't know, but you're not alone. You're not alone. I'm the same. I made a big wobble last week when I wondered whether or not
23:18
we were about to embark upon a course of absolute absurdity. And that's partly because of the echoes of what happened with Johnson and with Truss and the absolute madness
23:28
They both needed to be replaced. Johnson, neither of them should have ever been anywhere near Downey Street in the first place
23:36
Starmer is not by a million miles in anything like that category
23:39
but just that revolving door thing feels unstable, feels disruptive, feels suboptimal and unhelpful
23:45
unhelpful and yet i don't think you can make a very strong case for saying that starmer should
23:50
have carried on without the support of his own parliamentary party which is what it would have
23:54
involved um there you go so uh david kicks things off liz is next after her it could be you just
24:00
just your response this morning the whys and the wherefores of it for once on this program secondary
24:05
to the what what are you feeling what is your immediate response to the resignation of yet
24:10
another prime minister so we're going to have our seventh the dates won't quite work but it would be
24:15
in almost ten years. Seven Prime Ministers in almost... Is that right
24:20
All together now, Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss, Sunak, Starmer, and then A.N. Other, or A.N. Burnham
24:29
That's seven in more or less ten years. That's insane. If you were born in 1979
24:36
how many Prime Ministers did you have in ten years between 1979 and 1989
24:40
I think just one. Dominic Ellis is here with the headlines James O'Brien on LBC
24:48
You haven't heard the news Prime Minister's resigned Keir Starmer is set to quit Downing Street
24:54
We're not entirely sure what will happen next but it's almost certain to involve Andy Burnham
24:58
who the last time I checked was on a train to be Euston, wouldn't it
25:02
if you're coming down from Manchester and there it is we find ourselves once again in this
25:07
sort of democratic milestone I was right. I sometimes don't have the dates at my fingertips, but 1979 to 1990 for Margaret Thatcher
25:16
So if you were born in 1979, you would only have known one prime minister in the first 10 years of your life
25:22
If you were born in 2006, you would have known seven. Ah, dear, I dear
25:30
And this is the one that is the hardest to process, actually, because I don't think anybody short of Boris Johnson felt that Boris Johnson should have hung on
25:38
and I don't think anybody except Liz Truss thought that Liz Truss should have hung on. Theresa May was done for internally for a whole variety of reasons
25:48
biggest among them Brexit. David Cameron decided he didn't want to stick around
25:52
to see all his own predictions of what Brexit would involve come true after he was foolish enough to call it
25:58
Rishi Sunak is the only one who sort of left in traditional circumstances
26:03
and now Keir Starmer joins the list and he, of course, was never elected. Here's a little quiz for you
26:07
Who was the last British Prime Minister to enter Downing Street as a consequence of a general election
26:14
and leave Downing Street as a consequence of a general election? Because when you're a kid and you study politics, if you do study it
26:20
or you're just paying cursory attention to the news that your parents watch, you sort of think that's how they all come and go
26:25
Who was the last UK Prime Minister to enter Downing Street as a consequence of a general election
26:30
and to leave Downing Street as a consequence of a general election
26:36
It's quite a good one, isn't it? It's not Tony Blair. Gordon Brown replaced him before there was a general election
26:41
And that's from someone who produces the biggest show on speech radio in the history of commercial radio in this country
26:47
10.35 is the time. I've got one phone line I'm adding to you. If you want to join the queue of people waiting to tell me how they respond to this, you won't be surprised to learn
26:54
I've got a little bit more to say it myself. And I think it's one of those head versus heart moments
26:59
I really do. I could be wrong. But I think because you are essentially an empathetic, decent person, you respond to Keir Starmer's obvious pain
27:07
with sympathy and warmth and yet your head will tell you when it kicks in again that this had to
27:14
happen that he had to go for a whole heap of reasons some of which will be slightly more
27:17
hysterical than others but but but many of which will be simply true we're not an opinion but
27:23
counting it is 10 36 liz is in derby liz um what would you like to say hi james and first time
27:32
caller it's lovely to talk to you thank you um i think you've just framed it perfectly it's
27:37
head versus heart because my heart feels sad. I desperately wanted it to work with him
27:43
He's a man of integrity. I think everyone always says he's a good man
27:47
he's an honest man. But I think the problem has been that he doesn't know what his politics are
27:52
And so he's kind of been changing in the wind and responding to issues
27:57
But then people don't know who he is. And so we fall back on the fact that he's a good man
28:03
he's an honest man, which actually was very important to me. and I felt that he was someone that could be trusted
28:10
But the reality that I'm now facing is that you can't succeed as the leader of the country
28:16
if you are a person with that level of integrity. And, you know, after Boris Johnson
28:23
I think he was a breath of fresh air. But it's, yeah, I feel sad
28:29
Yeah, integrity, I mean, I don't want to sort of challenge you too robustly on that
28:36
because, you know, the moment is still very fresh. And he definitely has personal integrity
28:43
Some people, of course, will disagree with that. Some people will disagree with almost everything either of us say
28:47
That's the nature of life, isn't it? But it does feel more febrile at this point in the political cycle
28:52
than it has in my previous 50-odd years. But, I mean, personal integrity
28:57
but not actually a lot of political integrity in that... I mean, the thing I can't quite believe
29:02
is how none of the big announcements were stress-tested before they made them. So, you know, the thing that you would say if I were Andy Burnham
29:09
I would say we're not going to announce anything unless we are prepared to defend it to the death
29:15
We're not going to announce anything big unless we are prepared to defend it to the death
29:21
I think you're right. I think it's the first bit of a critique that we recognise
29:25
Oh, Liz, the phone line is your debut as well. Your first time on the programme as well
29:29
but the phone line has failed. The phone line has defeated us. 10.38 is the time. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
29:37
Just that question about who was the last Prime Minister to enter Parliament as a consequence of a general election
29:43
and leave Downing Street, not Parliament, as a consequence of a general election
29:47
I'm mentioning that for two reasons. Number one, it's fascinating. I think I know the answer, but I need to double check. Number two, some people will pretend that that's not true
29:55
The biggest liars in politics will be calling for a general election and completely ignoring the
29:59
The fact that Tony Blair left office without a general election, Margaret Thatcher left office without a general election
30:06
Theresa May left office without a general election, Boris Johnson left office without a general election
30:11
Liz Truss left office without a general election, and Keir Starmer is set to leave office without a general election
30:17
So you name the biggest liar in British politics and I guarantee that by 11 o'clock today they'll be calling for a general election if they haven't already
30:25
I just want to hear what Liz was saying. I think we fixed the line. Liz, where were we? Hi, sorry, James. Yeah, I was saying I think you're right about his personal integrity, but his political integrity I think has been lacking
30:35
And I've been so, like I say, rooting for it to work, but at the same time deeply concerned about the lack of direction
30:43
The sector that I work in, I work in higher education. And I am, you know, myself and colleagues are terrified about the future of our roles and the future of that
30:53
and the government don't really seem to have any direction in regards to saving that at all
30:59
Whether or not, I don't think that's going to get any better if Andy Burnham comes in, I have to say
31:05
But I think that hopefully what I hear from, you know, I listen to West Street's podcast appearance
31:12
with the newsagents, and it seems that the fundamental issue is that there is just a lack of leadership within Cabinet
31:19
There is avoidance tactics going on in terms of tackling real issues
31:25
and hearing the kind of opinions of the cabinet. And I think that's been why he hasn't got that backing
31:33
why he hasn't got those people around him that will defend him no matter what because he's not listened
31:40
Yeah, and I mean, another thing that I think that the history books will focus on
31:44
is that he managed to annoy everybody even when he changed course
31:49
And you'd think if you change course that the people who were demanding that you change course would be quite happy that you changed course
31:54
But I don't know what order you want to do them in. Student loans is your neck of the woods. Department of Education announcing a cap at 6% from September after the Iran war broke out
32:03
So, of course, you can always argue that it is the facts change
32:08
You change your mind when the facts change. But, of course, prior to that, they were supposed to be stuck at 9%
32:13
So that counts as a U-turn. It took 132 days from November 26, 2025 to April 7, 2026
32:22
Rachel Reeves went from calling it fair and reasonable in late January to announcing that it would be frozen at 6% from September a couple of months
32:30
or 132 days later. So, ah, dear. And that still leaves everybody annoyed
32:36
the people who wanted the U-turn and the people who didn't. Everyone's annoyed. And for me, at the moment, digital ideas at the top of the list
32:42
not because I have particularly strong feelings about it one way or another, but if a policy goes from being popular to being unpopular
32:48
after it's implemented, and almost entirely as a consequence of who implemented it
32:53
then, Houston, we have a problem. Liz, thank you. I look forward to your second call
32:56
Anna is in Camden. Anna, what would you like to say? Hi, James. I feel like I agree with a lot of what everyone's been saying
33:03
It's just that human thing. It's like, if you see someone getting, like, knocked over by a car
33:09
your instinct is, oh, my God, I want to help them. Are they going to be okay? you might not even believe in God
33:13
but you might be there not on Facebook these days you're being undated with people
33:18
laughing and celebrating and sticking you know smiley face emojis all over it yeah sadly
33:24
so my experience was I just I have also had this thing of
33:29
feeling very different things and different emotions about Kir but in that speech
33:34
I felt so bad for him but I also just felt like
33:40
it came across as really honourable and it just came across really putting that thing into practice
33:45
of I'm going to put the country before personal ambition and party and I think we haven't
33:51
experienced that in a long time and I just I feel like if he had actually leaned more into what he
33:57
personally thinks and what he personally feels I think everything could have gone a bit better for
34:02
him but I know it's easier said than done because I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be
34:06
the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. No, nor can I, actually, and probably more difficult now
34:12
than it has been at almost any other point in post-war history
34:17
Something that occurs to me, I don't know if you agree with this, but people like Boris Johnson and Liz Truss made it very easy for us
34:22
to know exactly what our opinions were. There was no real conflict even between head and heart
34:26
because Johnson in particular was so sort of personally amoral that you didn't need to feel or you didn't have an impulse of empathy
34:34
when you looked at someone who'd caused so much suffering, suffering. And I suppose the same went with trust
34:41
But Starmer is conflicting us precisely because he seems to be, to all intents and purposes, a very decent man
34:48
But he was, I'm afraid, a bit of a rubbish Prime Minister
34:52
Yeah. I don't like saying that. It feels a little bit unseemly to say it while the ink is still fresh on the resignation letter
34:59
Actually, we haven't seen any resignation letter yet. I don't know what's going to happen next, but I do know that we're here until one o'clock
35:06
so there's plenty of room for conversations about whether we want other hats in the ring
35:10
or whether we want any leadership contest at all. I don't know what Burnham would prefer
35:17
He let it be known at the weekend that he'd prefer a contest rather than a coronation
35:21
It strengthens the mandate, I suppose, and yet you can see the case for the opposite as well
35:26
because it would involve less disruption and less inter-Nissan warfare. just not by way of a prediction
35:31
because I don't really feel confident enough to make any predictions not in the style of my Brexit predictions
35:37
every single one of which of course has come true or my Donald Trump predictions
35:41
every single one of which or my Benjamin Netanyahu prediction every single one of which
35:45
or my Boris Johnson but anyway enough about me I can't quite see Wes Streeting
35:49
sitting this one out just me at the moment one perspective I pay slightly more attention perhaps
35:56
than the average bear but I can't quite see Wes Streeting sitting this one out
36:00
Not least because he started the ball rolling in many ways, but also because he..
36:06
I think he has his eye on the prize, and that's not a bad thing
36:10
Almost all politicians do have in the back of their mind somewhere the thought of what would happen
36:14
You don't go into politics without dreaming on some level of being Prime Minister in 90% of cases
36:20
But I'd be very surprised if Wes Streeting sits it out. Of course, it may be up to Andy Barnum
36:26
He may be able to make West Streeting an offer that he feels he currently can't refuse
36:30
but I don't know. We'll get on to that kind of pontification perhaps a little later in the programme
36:35
It's 10.45. James O'Brien on LBC. You've got what they want, but it's not a zero-sum game, this
36:42
You don't have to be feeling 100% joy or 100% dismay. I like to think that if we have any shared characteristics, you and I
36:51
then it would be an ability to hold two thoughts in your head at the same time. And here's mine. That's sad. He seems like a decent bloke. I thought he'd do a lot better
37:01
You also simultaneously acknowledge the fact that whether you're talking about student loans or digital ID or winter fuel allowances or, I mean, the list does go on, doesn't it
37:11
or pub business rates or the farmers inheritance tax or welfare reform or the island of strangers
37:18
comments or the two child benefit cap or rights for workers or waspy women compensation or
37:23
income tax threat thresholds or grooming gang inquiries that the perception that him saying something would happen or wouldn happen was no guarantee that his government would ensure that something would happen or wouldn happen
37:37
And that's fatal, I think. That's a fatal flaw. Objectively. You know, unless you've got a mad populist in power, unless you've got a Donald Trump in power
37:48
who can say on Monday that X is going to happen and on Tuesday that it definitely isn't
37:52
and death to anyone who says it is. I mean, that level of insanity is now baked in to the White House, as we'll see perhaps later in the programme
38:00
But for those of us who still sort of cling to a belief that stuff matters
38:06
if you are a prime minister whose word has become worthless, whether you like it or not, you can't argue with me about this
38:14
The number of times on which he said something would or wouldn't happen, and then the opposite occurred, it did happen or it didn't happen
38:20
the opposite of what he said would happen, happened. that becomes untenable
38:24
you can argue on a few occasions when the facts change, so I change my mind
38:28
what do you do? But you can't argue it on ten occasions I mean you struggle really to argue it on two
38:33
in your first two years you know, it's a bit like the Oscar Wilde line
38:39
isn't it, about one is a misfortune two is careless and here we are
38:44
so you can simultaneously feel poignancy pathos, empathy but acknowledge and know that the situation had become untenable
38:56
Michael's in Farmworth, in Andy Burnham country. Michael, what would you like to say
39:00
So I feel massive relief, to be honest, that this has happened, that Keir Starmer has resigned
39:07
Obviously, I feel really bad for Starmer that he has had to resign. But at the moment, it's felt like we're getting to 2029
39:16
and Nigel Farage will likely be the next Prime Minister. Now at least there's a chance that that won't happen
39:23
Because honestly, I was planning to leave the country by 2029. I don't want to be here when Nigel Farage is Prime Minister
39:32
because I'm gay, I'm left-wing. It's not going to be a great place for me in 2029 if that's the case
39:39
And so at least... Do you not derive any pleasure at all from seeing people of colour
39:43
brutalised and possibly deported? Oh, I absolutely hate it. I don't want to be in the country if that happens
39:50
I'm just pointing out, you know, what you'd need to be in order to find the prospect appealing or attractive in any way, shape or form
39:57
Because I don't think we need to pretend anymore. It's become crystal clear in the last couple of weeks
40:01
exactly where these people stand, despite spending years pretending that they didn't
40:06
And, I mean, this is assuming that, you know, Andy Burnham, he's done great things for Greater Manchester
40:12
He's very much about putting power where the people are as well
40:16
he's about devolution, which I'm very, very pro. You know, I think that's a fantastic idea
40:22
If it's West Streeting, maybe a little bit less. You know, fun fact, a little claim to fame
40:29
West Streeting tried flirting with me in a club about 15 years ago
40:33
when we were both at a student conference. I didn't buy it then. I'm not buying it now
40:40
So, yeah, I think West Streeting, he's basically looking at the start, man
40:45
It could have been a lookalike, Michael. I mean, are you 100% sure it was the real deal
40:49
Well, he was the head of the NUS LGBT, and he was trying to make the most of that
40:54
That's the fella. Well, I mean, you know, we were all a little bit enthusiastic
40:59
with our favours during our student days, perhaps, so I'm not going to read too much into that
41:03
I love the idea, you didn't bite then and you're not biting now. You wouldn't leave the country if Wes Streeting became Prime Minister
41:09
I don't think. well I mean he's he's a lot like Keir Starmer
41:14
well I think Burnham might be you've gone early on this I'll move with you on this one
41:21
it's your show as much as mine I was going to wait until the second hour for this but are you sure that Andy Burnham isn't equally
41:28
prone to blowing in the wind and changing his mind I could give you examples
41:34
well I'm sure you could and this is the thing when he was an MP
41:37
he wasn't massively up to much However, he seems to have massively changed
41:42
He's his, you know, what he's saying, like certainly in Greater Manchester, he's been making a lot of moves that are a lot more localism, you know, in that
41:50
Does that work on a national stage? Do we think I guess we'll have to see like this is the thing
41:56
It's kind of we've we've we've got to take a risk here. It's kind of if we stayed with the same, then we, you know, Kirsten would not have resigned
42:04
and West Streeting, I think, is more of the same because he's, you know, Starmer's lovely
42:10
but he's not got the right skills to be on the national stage
42:15
He's kind of, he's very impartial, which is great if you're a newsreader or a lawyer
42:19
Yes. It's terrible if you're a prime minister. And I think West Streeting's the same, except he seems a little bit more malicious
42:25
and a bit more kind of, I don't know how to put it
42:29
he seems a bit more kind of just looking forward for his career
42:34
really. Okay, I mean, I don't think that Keir Starmer ever really stood accused of that, did he
42:41
The idea that he was one of those egotists who just wanted to have a go at being Prime Minister
42:45
because, in the words of David Cameron, he thought he would be good at it. Or a kind of Boris Johnson
42:52
figure who just wanted to be King of the World and would make do with being Prime Minister in the
42:56
event of a vacancy for King of the World not coming up. I honestly think that Starmer wanted
43:01
the job because he thought he would be able to make a significant
43:05
change and do significant good, but then he fluffed it. I don't think we
43:09
can argue with the fact that he fluffed it. We can make a very long list of all the things that he did
43:13
and I may remind you of that list at the top of the next hour because it's important and he
43:17
deserves legacy, but he fluffed it. Why do you think he was so sticky, Michael
43:23
This is my theory. I'm hoping no one else puts pen to paper on the subject because it's
43:27
what I'm planning on writing my column about tomorrow, but whatever the opposite of Teflon is for a politician
43:33
and we often talk about Teflon as if it's a bad thing, but it's not a bad thing if it's your guy who's Teflon
43:39
Starmer was the opposite of Teflon, wasn't he? Everything that was thrown at him stuck
43:43
and he could not get it off. Do we know why that was? Because that seems to me to be something to do with personality and manner
43:49
I mean, I think that, you know, he acted as if he had a razor thin majority
43:54
even though he didn't, and I just think maybe he didn't have the confidence to do it
43:58
because, you know, social media being what it is, and this is part of the reason I think Starmer may have worked 20, 30 years ago
44:04
he doesn't work now, is because if you, you know, if you don't stand for anything
44:10
then people will just kind of go, well, he doesn't stand for me, he doesn't stand for me
44:14
and indeed I'm seeing this about Andy Burnham, because they're saying, well, already people are saying, well, they, you know, much as you've said earlier with one of your comments has said
44:23
oh, well, he doesn't, you know, he's pro-Israel, and it's kind of, well, okay
44:26
If you're going to just dismiss somebody and, you know, these people acting as if, well, because he doesn't support pro-Palestine, then, oh, well, we should just let Nigel Farage in anyway
44:37
Yes. Well, it's people letting perfect be the enemy of the good
44:40
And, you know, the fairest thing you can say about Andy Burnham when it comes to UK-Israel relations is that his position is still unclear
44:52
he called Netanyahu's re-election back in 2015 depressing he backed a Gaza ceasefire just weeks after October the 7th and of course led Manchester through an attack on a synagogue last Yom Kippur So nuanced would probably be the fairest word to use
45:08
And, of course, on that issue more perhaps than any other, nuance is, as we often discover on this programme, nuance is not allowed
45:14
You've got to be 100% on one side or 100% on the other for some people
45:18
but not happily for everyone. Thank you, Michael. Great stuff. 10.57. Are you in a happy relationship now or do you look back upon that moment with West Streeting and wonder what could have been
45:29
Interestingly, my partner has said that I should have probably got with West Streeting because I could have prevented all of this
45:34
But I kind of just rebuffed that quite quickly. 10.57 is the time. Jack's in West Mauling. Jack, what would you like to say
45:44
So, hi, James. I am sad about this. My wife phoned me this morning when she was on the way to work to tell me that he'd resigned
45:53
And we both heard the news from Trump when Trump had tweeted out that he was going to resign
45:58
And we thought, well, he's saying a load of nonsense, as he often does
46:02
Yes. But we were quite disappointed. You know, I didn't think he was a great prime minister or too big a fan of his
46:09
but I didn't think he was by any stretch of the imagination a terrible prime minister worthy of resigning
46:14
You know, I look at the changes that have come in, the Renters' Rights Act, the Employers' Rights Act
46:20
I mean, is this not why we elect Labour governments? Workers' rights. I wonder, you know, again, as with Michael
46:27
you've touched on something I was thinking of moving to a little later in the programme
46:30
but this idea that it's an option now, whereas previously, certainly prior to 2016
46:39
arguably even a little later than that, before Theresa May got her feet under the table
46:46
resignation because you've lost the support of your party used to be as rare as hen's teeth
46:53
And it's as if the party wouldn't go there unless the chips weren't just down
46:57
They were subterranean. Do you know what I mean? But because we've got so..
47:01
Everybody's got used to it, including MPs. It's almost as if perhaps they reach for that lever now
47:07
a lot more readily and a lot more quickly than they would have done 15 or 20 years ago
47:14
Yeah, well, maybe people think being prime minister is an easy job. Yeah
47:18
I mean, that's probably what they think. I think a lot of it, as one person commented this morning
47:22
at the beginning of your show, is to do with social media and a lot of bots on social media
47:27
that go unchecked or unverified. And then as soon as reporters pick up on that..
47:32
Yeah, I mean, it's a symbiotic relationship, isn't it? and you see it in politics as well, the terminally online people
47:40
live in a universe that the rest of us don't recognise, where London isn't safe compared to American cities, for example
47:49
or where Sharia law has been introduced, or where, oh, I could go on
47:53
and it doesn't exist, that place, but if you believe it exists, then your politics are going to be informed accordingly
47:59
I don't know about that. I like that idea, that this is actually evidence of a game change
48:06
in that, I mean, what would be a good ogy to use here? It's like a lever that hasn't
48:11
when it was pulled for Margaret Thatcher, it was huge, absolutely huge
48:15
I remember it. I think I was working in River Island at the time in Worcester and it was absolutely immense
48:21
when it felt like Thatcher's number was up, not least because she'd been Prime Minister for 11 years
48:27
Whereas now, oh, we've had enough of this guy, let's try another one. It's contagious
48:33
So the Conservative Party had a terminal case of let's try another one
48:37
And now the Labour Party, you might argue, has caught the virus
48:41
I don't know. James O'Brien on LBC. It's after 11. So I asked you, and I told you
48:49
that Farage would be calling for a general election. Well, that's not true, is it? I said the biggest liar in British politics
48:54
would be calling for a general election by 11 o'clock today, and they're in the 11 o'clock bulletin
48:57
He is calling for a general election, completely ignoring the fact that
49:01
because, of course, he believes that his supporters are stupid. I'll leave you to decide. whether that's a fair judgment or not
49:08
but I wasn't born the last time a British Prime Minister entered and left Downing Street as the consequence
49:16
I was born when he left, but I wasn't born when he entered. Isn't that insane
49:21
Because we still have a... What's the word for it? A kind of sense that general elections
49:28
both install and remove Prime Ministers, and that it is out of the ordinary
49:34
if it happens in other circumstances. The opposite is true. The last Prime Minister to enter and leave Downing Street
49:41
as a consequence of a general election was Ted Heath. Ted Heath from 1970 to 1974
49:50
And while I'm in full geek mode, I hope and don't currently believe that he will
49:58
but I really hope Keir Starmer doesn't become a sort of Ted Heath de nos jours
50:02
and spend the rest of his political life displaying great bitterness at his own defenestration
50:09
and trying to make life difficult for his successors, which is what Ted Heath did
50:13
after he was essentially replaced by Margaret Thatcher in circumstances not dissimilar to what we're seeing here
50:18
except that it happened in opposition rather than power. I have Andy Burnham's response
50:25
So first black mark for Andy Burnham is put it on Twitter. I think one of the first things that they should do
50:31
is get off that. Get off that hell site. Get off the Nazi-friendly platform
50:37
Get off the absolutely hideous cauldron of lies and racism and just find another way of getting him
50:44
Leave them to it. It's no point. So, first black mark for Andy Burnham
50:48
He's put his announcement on Twitter. Keir has given huge service to our country
50:52
and I want to thank him for his leadership and dedication during such a challenging period
50:56
See, that's already sounding. I want to thank him for, is usually the language that you'd expect in a prime ministerial missive
51:04
greeting a resignation from a minister. His decision marks the beginning of a transition
51:08
and it is important that this process is conducted in an orderly and responsible way
51:13
I will put myself forward as part of this process. The country expects stability, seriousness
51:19
and a continued focus on the issues that matter most and that is what it will get
51:23
Possibly second black mark for Andy Burnham. Do you think? The country expects stability, seriousness
51:29
and a continued focus on the issues that matter most. Well, you've just delivered the polar opposite, mate
51:34
by running for the Makerfield seat, in the absence of which none of this would currently be happening
51:39
A stay of execution, a postponement, or a cancellation? I don't know, but a little bit rich, perhaps
51:45
As we move forward, our priority must be to work together to get the country back to where we all want it to be
51:51
People want to see progress on economic growth, cost of living, public services, housing
51:55
and opportunities for the next generation. Political change should never distract from the responsibility to improve people's lives
52:03
Tick, a tick for that, that's nice. The Labour movement has always been at its strongest when it looks forward with confidence and purpose
52:11
Also true, this is what we will do from here, and we will make sure this transition is a positive process of renewal for our party and our country
52:19
So, I have a question for you. And it is going to be about what really did for Keir Starmer And you can use head or heart on this one Before that I think we listen to the soon former Prime Minister
52:37
listing what he considers to be his government's greatest achievements outside number 10 this morning
52:42
I presume it was Steve Bray, who was quite good value during the Brexit shenanigans
52:49
because his background noise acted as a siren for all of the nonsense
52:53
that was being spoken by various Brexit supporters. But now that we know that was all nonsense
52:59
I really don't see any purpose served at all by disrupting this particular moment in this particular way
53:06
Do you want me to have a little read of what Wes Streeting has to say
53:12
Because I think it's a good job I didn't make a prediction when I said a few moments ago that Wes Streeting
53:17
I'd find it unlikely that he would sit this one out. I don't know whether he was listening, but he has subsequently issued the following statement
53:23
and he's done it on House of Commons notepaper which admittedly is not an option currently
53:27
Yeah, Andy Burnham could have done that as well. Has he taken his seat yet? Either way, I wish he hadn't done it on Twitter
53:32
but he did also post it on that health site. Keir Starmer led us, I'm not going to read all of this
53:37
I'll read you the relevant bits. Keir Starmer led us to a general election victory
53:40
that no one thought possible. He kept us out of the war in Iran and has delivered real progress as Prime Minister at home
53:46
He has made the right decision to stand down as the leader of the Labour Party that he saved
53:50
and here we go I left the government because we were losing the fight
53:55
to nationalists in every corner of the country I have spent the weeks
53:59
since speaking to our former councillors activists and voters in places that we lost
54:03
to listen and to learn from them, a typo there that's unforgivable given the context of this message
54:10
having spoken at length with Andy in recent days I'm convinced that there is
54:13
a place for those ideas, this is after he's listed his priorities, under his
54:17
leadership, that he is committed to building an inclusive party that draws on the best
54:21
of our political traditions and that he can win the fight of our lives against the forces
54:25
of nationalism. We could spend the summer exaggerating small differences or we can roll up our sleeves and help him to
54:31
deliver the change our party and our country needs. That is the choice that I am making
54:35
and I hope that everyone else will back Andy too. We were elected
54:39
to change our country. Another typo. We were elected to change our country. I'll edit it for
54:45
you. To show that politics can be a force for good and to spread opportunity
54:49
for everyone. With Andy, we still can. So, Streeting declares for Burnham, who I don't think
54:55
technically becomes an MP until half past two today. So, it doesn't matter
54:59
anyway, because Streeting has tweeted it as well as sticking it on House of Commons stationery
55:07
So, there it is. It doesn't mean there won't be a contest, but it means that the perceived
55:11
biggest hitter in any contest will not be in it, whereas street in declaring for Andy Burnham. Here is the Prime Minister, soon to be ex-Prime
55:21
Minister, listing what he considers to be his government's achievements outside number
55:25
10 Downing Street earlier this morning, with that caveat that I shared a moment ago that
55:30
I think that the people with the loudspeakers and the amplifiers have now perhaps delighted
55:35
us for long enough. Walking up this street two years ago was the proudest moment of my life. A new Labour
55:43
government, the first in 14 years, a page in our country's history turned after years
55:51
of disappointment and despair, the chance to change the lives of millions of people for
55:58
the better. That's what I came into politics for. The journey to that point was not easy
56:06
six years ago I inherited a Labour Party that was politically, financially and morally bankrupt
56:16
I was told time and time again that my party was finished
56:22
that we were consigned to history that a majority at the general election
56:29
let alone a landslide majority was impossible But we proved those people wrong because we changed our party, ripping out the poison of anti-Semitism, restoring trust on the economy, defence and national security and becoming a party that once again stood proudly with, not against, our national flag
56:56
The hard work of change was with a singular purpose, not power for power's sake, but to change Britain for the better
57:07
To build a fairer country with dignity and respect, where everyone is seen, everyone is valued
57:20
Wealth and opportunity for all, not just the privileged crew. And look at what we've achieved in just two years
57:31
An economy that is stronger, growing faster than our peers. Wages rising faster than inflation in every single month since we came to power
57:44
Investment secured, infrastructure being built. An end to austerity with the fastest fall in NHS waiting lists for 17 years
57:55
the biggest improvement in rights for workers and renters in a generation
58:01
the biggest uplift in defence spending since the Cold War, small boat crossings falling
58:08
asylum hotels closing, protecting young people from social media and half a million children being lifted out of poverty
58:18
because of the choices that I made. our reputation in the world restored
58:25
with Britain once again standing up for decency, respect and the rule of law
58:32
securing trade deals, standing with Ukraine standing up for our values and rebuilding our relationship with our allies in Europe
58:42
change promised by a Labour government change fought for by a Labour government
58:48
change delivered by a Labour government. But none of it ultimately enough to save Keir Starmer's bacon
58:59
Fair or unfair, them's the facts. And the question of why, what made his premiership so brittle, so vulnerable
59:08
What made him so vulnerable, so brittle? What really did for him is the question to which I will turn your attention shortly
59:15
First, though, a hydration break, followed by our political editor, Natasha Clark
59:19
all being well live from Downey Street, on some of the earlier reactions to Keir Starmer's announcement
59:25
up to, of course, and including the breaking news that West Streeting has declared for Andy Burnham
59:31
the former Health Secretary, whose resignation in many ways set a lot of this in motion
59:37
has declared for Andy Burnham. So, I think West Streeting for Chancellor of the Exchequer
59:42
is probably quite a good bet. right now. 300 billion pounds. Fiscal rules for investment were loosened
1:00:04
Workers' rights and renters' rights were radically expanded. Academy schools now enjoy more freedom than they did under conservative governments
1:00:13
The country has doubled down on net zero, signed a new EU agreement
1:00:17
and recognised a Palestinian state. So somewhere in the mix is another riddle, isn't there
1:00:23
of how come none of this stuff mattered, or how come you perhaps didn't know about some of it
1:00:30
Also significant that in that speech, he didn't mention immigration per se
1:00:34
He mentioned small boats and asylum hotels, repurposed hotels, both of which have diminished measurably
1:00:43
But the decimation of the overall immigration figure is not something he was minded to boast about
1:00:49
which perhaps speaks to that sense of moral querulousness and the idea that some of the things he did
1:00:55
he did despite his own best or better instincts. I don't know, but we'll get on to that shortly
1:01:01
First, though, Natasha Clarke is still outside Downing Street, where every political journalist in the country is currently trying to think of new things to tell presenters back in the studio, Natasha
1:01:11
Any thoughts? James, I've got loads of thoughts for you today. And actually, things are moving quite quickly here in Westminster
1:01:19
We've had two statements in the last few minutes, one from Andy Burnham and one from Wes Streeting
1:01:25
Those, of course, are the two people that most people expected to run for the Labour leadership
1:01:29
Now, Sir Keir Starmer has announced that he will resign. So Andy Burnham has put out a message this morning thanking Sir Keir Starmer for his leadership and dedication during such a challenging period
1:01:39
And he says that it's important this process is now conducted in an orderly and responsible way and confirms I will put myself forward as part of that process
1:01:49
So Andy Burnham at first confirming the news that basically everybody in Westminster already knew and that he said essentially in a bit of a hint in his speech on Friday after he won the Makerfield by-election that he will put himself forward to be the next leader of the Labour Party and to be the next Prime Minister
1:02:05
The other question that we were all asking today was what was going to happen with West Streeting
1:02:11
Of course, the former health secretary has said that he has in the past wanted to run to be Labour leader as well
1:02:17
But just in the last few minutes, we have got a statement from him. He's written a letter. He talks about Keir Starmer has made the right decision to stand down as leader of the Labour Party
1:02:27
He said after a devastating set of election results, it's a victory for hope and unity over division and hatred in Makerfield
1:02:35
He says he's been in touch with Andy Burnham at length in recent days and he says he's now convinced that there is a place for ideas under his leadership
1:02:44
So he is now saying that he is not going to fight to be Labour leader
1:02:49
This, James, is quite a significant moment because it means that we could now be on for a coronation of Andy Burnham in the days to come
1:02:55
He says we could choose to spend the summer exaggerating small differences or we can roll up our sleeves and help him to deliver the change our party and country needs
1:03:04
That is the choice I am making, and I hope that everyone else will back Andy too
1:03:09
So he is rolling in behind West Street. And I think we probably can read into that letter, James, that behind closed doors
1:03:14
a deal has been done for a top job for West Street in Andy Burnham's future cabinet
1:03:20
Now, of course, we all wait to see whether anybody else throws their hat in the ring
1:03:24
whether Al Kahn's will decide to run for Labour leader as well
1:03:28
But those are the two main challenges that we all saw for Prime Minister
1:03:32
potentially for leader of the Labour Party. So it does look now more and more likely
1:03:37
that we are going to get a coronation of Andy Burnham at some point. Now, as Keir Starmer said earlier
1:03:42
the nominations won't begin to open until July the 9th. But if things continue to move this quickly, James
1:03:48
we could be seeing things happen a little bit more swiftly than thought
1:03:52
And we may not see a leadership election at all. If all of the Labour Party can coalesce behind Andy Burnham
1:03:57
to be the next Prime Minister, we will not see a summer of chaos, a summer leadership election
1:04:02
and it will just be a waiting game for Andy Burnham when Keir Starmer will hand over the reins to him
1:04:07
What's the threshold? What's the deadline? Remind me. So you can't say for certain that there isn't going to be a leadership election
1:04:13
until the deadline for nominations has passed. You could have someone, you know, who fancies their 15 minutes in the spotlight
1:04:20
turning up at the last possible minute, who none of us have ever heard of, and announcing that they're going to run against Burnham
1:04:27
Of course, that could happen. So July the 9th is the magical day that Sir Keir Starmer has decided
1:04:32
that he wants that to happen on. So we've got a few weeks of waiting and seeing
1:04:35
to see whether anybody else decides to throw their hat into the ring
1:04:39
It's now down to Labour's National Executive Committee, down to the deputy party leader Lucy Powell
1:04:45
and all of those are on Labour's top team to decide exactly how this will happen
1:04:48
and what it will mean. But yes, we could be in a situation where in a couple of weeks
1:04:53
nobody apart from Andy Burnham has decided that they will run. Nobody apart from him may have
1:04:58
the magical number of 81 MPs needed in order to stand. So we could see a coronation happen a lot quicker than we think
1:05:05
But obviously in Westminster, lots of conversations happening beside closed doors. I know from speaking to Labour MPs that many of them are not keen to see an Andy Burnham coronation
1:05:15
Many of them do think that they want to see a formal contest. They want to see his ideas tested and are worried that actually just handing over the reins to somebody
1:05:23
we don't know what their policies are on certain things. We have a small idea of some of the things that Andy Burnham would do if he were to become prime minister
1:05:30
but we don't know the extent of them. So some people in the Labour Party do want to see a contest
1:05:36
but if people like West Street are now already rowing in behind Andy Burnham
1:05:40
that for me suggests that most Labour MPs are probably unlikely. So what of those 80 MPs that said they were ready to back West Street
1:05:48
are they all going to now row in behind Andy Burnham or are some of them going to be looking for a stop Andy Burnham candidate
1:05:55
That is what I have been hearing over the past few days but as of yet we've not seen that James
1:06:00
And no real likelihood of someone emerging from what's left of the left of the party in the way that we saw back in 2019
1:06:09
Because I was reminded, Natasha, and people could be forgiven for not knowing this or at least for having forgotten
1:06:15
But one of the reasons Jeremy Corbyn ran in the first place and one of the reasons that many Labour MPs voted for him not expecting him to become leader, well, that reason was called Andy Burnham
1:06:27
Yeah, that's right. And yes, we may see somebody of the very, very left of the Labour Party
1:06:34
decide to step up to say, well, Andy Burnham's not left-wing enough
1:06:38
We have had a statement in from Angela Rayner. I've seen that. It doesn't mention Andy Burnham
1:06:43
It doesn't. Does that mean anything? Exactly. So it doesn't mean that she won't stand herself
1:06:47
Well, I think you can read into it that she's not explicitly today endorsing Andy Burnham
1:06:52
There have, of course, been discussions that she may be able to
1:06:56
and way want to throw her hat in the ring herself. And I'm sure there are people today
1:06:59
which are urging her to think about that. But equally, some people have said that, you know
1:07:04
Andy Burnham will want a position for Angela Rayner in his top team
1:07:08
So that could also happen. Angela Rayner and Andy Burnham have been pictured together
1:07:13
I think in the last few months, they were pictured together at an event. They are considered to be close allies
1:07:18
So potentially she will then row behind him as well. But again no mention of that in her statement this morning She talks just about how she was sad to see Kirstama go She talks about how he spoke with dignity and duty this morning my thoughts are with him and his family I was proud to serve as deputy
1:07:36
as he led the party into government she says Labour was elected to change Britain and as a
1:07:41
new chapter begins we must now redouble our efforts to deliver for working people so she is not coming
1:07:47
out today and saying Andy Burnham should be the next Prime Minister and she is going to support
1:07:51
him. So I imagine she will be taking her time and she does have a bit of time
1:07:55
until July the 9th to decide whether she wants to stand herself. And that may be
1:07:59
a question to which we turn our attention after 12 o'clock today. Whether or not we want
1:08:03
to see somebody else run for Prime Minister effectively of course, not just leader of the Labour Party
1:08:09
besides Andy Burnham. Natasha Clark live from Downing Street. Many thanks indeed. That's my favourite statement of
1:08:15
the three actually. Listen, I'm a pedant and I'm a bit of a wally as well
1:08:19
as you've almost certainly gathered over the years that we've spent together or possibly just the minutes or hours i don't know how long you've
1:08:25
been listening to this rubbish um but andy burnham i think went a little bit early on trying to sound
1:08:30
prime ministerial i want to thank him for his leadership and dedication i don't like that
1:08:34
call me petty am i being petty i just don't think that it was burnham's place yet to write kia has
1:08:39
given huge service to our country and i want to thank him for his leadership and dedication i
1:08:44
don't like that it's a little thing i'm being petty petty alert have we got a petty no of course
1:08:49
we haven't, but we've got Akir Starmer resigned within about ten minutes of it happening, Keith
1:08:53
Any sign of my mystic Jim jingle yet? Hello? No, if you're wondering what's
1:09:01
going on, I ask for production to accompany some of the brilliant ideas I come
1:09:05
up with on a regular basis on this programme as a creative genius of radio
1:09:09
and it generally takes about a year for the production to arrive. If Emily Maitlis asks for something
1:09:14
meanwhile on her News Agents podcast, it arrives before she's finished speaking. I'll probably
1:09:21
get a new Prime Minister faster than I can get a bit of production for my brilliant creative
1:09:25
genius. Well, not even probably. It's a given. So we've managed to get a jingle for Keir
1:09:29
Starmer resigning, despite the fact that it happened about two hours ago. And
1:09:33
Mystic Jim, my brilliant new feature, the latest evidence of my creative genius
1:09:37
remains absolutely unaddressed, jingle-free, stingless, whatever you want to call it. So yeah, that's my beef
1:09:45
with Burnham. I want to thank him for his leadership. I think it's a little bit previous. My beef with West Streeting
1:09:51
because I'm abedant, is that his statement is riddled with typos. I don't know whether
1:09:56
that... It doesn't matter in the great scheme of things, but it's riddled with typos. One
1:10:02
of my West Streeting predictions might still come true. I said I thought it was unlikely he'd sit this one out, but he's sitting this one out, so it's a good job I didn't stick
1:10:08
that one on the actual prediction list rather than the mere observation. But also an observation
1:10:13
was that he's probably got his eye on the next round. He's still young, and he definitely wants to be Prime Minister
1:10:19
Of that there can be no doubt. But he probably feels that the time isn't quite right for him
1:10:23
And then Angela Rayner is entirely dignified in her statement, recognising the role that history will play in remembering Keir Starmer
1:10:32
and paying tribute to his record of dedicated public service. And failing to mention, and one can't help thinking that this is not accidental
1:10:40
coincidental or irrelevant failing to mention Andy Burnham at all in her statement that cites
1:10:47
the creation of great british energy and great british railways the action to tackle child
1:10:51
poverty and so much more that list keeps getting longer but not long enough to save his bacon which
1:10:57
is what we will turn our attention to next why ultimately why did Keir Starmer survive for such
1:11:07
a short amount of time, two years, give or take. It's an extraordinary judgment. And your answer
1:11:13
to this question could be Starmer or drama. So it could be something about Keir Starmer that
1:11:21
rendered his position so untenable so quickly, or it could be something about the country that he
1:11:27
governs. I'm not a big fan of these op-eds about how the country has become ungovernable, because
1:11:34
that's, you know, measurably untrue. Very difficult to govern. Liars on the march. All sorts of elements
1:11:40
of it. But the thing I've been most struck by during our burblings
1:11:44
this morning is probably that idea of the lever that says change prime
1:11:48
minister being one that you used to have to break like ten
1:11:52
panes of glass to get to. Do you see what I mean? So there is that lever
1:11:56
over there. Well we don't really ever go near that cupboard. There's a lever in that cupboard
1:12:00
over there. It's got ten locks on it. It's got like it's like something like when bugs
1:12:04
Bunny was trying to protect something. It's got a million padlocks on it. We never go near that
1:12:09
change Prime Minister lever. And then since 2019, we've gone near it a lot. Since 2019
1:12:17
we probably haven't put the locks back since the last time someone pulled that lever and put Rishi
1:12:21
Sunak in Downing Street. So the last Prime Minister went into Downing Street as a consequence of
1:12:26
someone pulling the lever. The Prime Minister before that went into Downing Street as a consequence
1:12:30
of someone pulling the lever. The Prime Minister before that went into Downing Street
1:12:33
as a consequence of someone pulling the lever. So, I don't know, because of course that doesn't quite fit
1:12:40
with the fact that the last Prime Minister to enter Downing Street at a general election and leave Downing Street at a general election
1:12:45
was Ted Heath. The last one to win one and go at the next one was John Major
1:12:52
but he was already in Downing Street before he called the general election
1:12:57
So you have to go all the way back to 1970 to 74 for the prime ministerial term that both began and ended, installed and removed the prime minister with general elections
1:13:10
The time now is half past 11. Dominic Ellis has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
1:13:15
Again, but I don't think today's the day. If someone had been in a coma for the last two years, they literally fell asleep shortly after Keir Starmer arrived in Downing Street
1:13:23
and they've woken up this morning to see him leaving after a little more than two years
1:13:29
with an enormous majority, you know, a massive parliamentary majority, albeit a very shallow majority
1:13:37
by which I mean those seats were won by relatively small margins
1:13:40
and they're doing badly in the opinion polls at the moment. But still, what would be the single biggest reason that you gave
1:13:47
What really did for Starmer? 034560, 60973. And remember, it can be either him or something done to him
1:14:00
Do you see what I mean? It can be either him or context. It can be him or country
1:14:04
It can be starma or drama, whichever you prefer. But what's the biggest thing you'd put on that list
1:14:10
0344, well, you know the number. Kirsty's in St Albans. Kirsty, what would you like to say
1:14:15
Hi, James. Hello. I think, for me anyway, I'm speaking as a former head of corporate affairs of a large tech company, as a former BBC researcher
1:14:29
I won't go as far as saying senior journalist, but I had a long career in corporate affairs for 15 years, running press offices, comp campaigns for hundreds of organisations
1:14:39
And I think the reason why Keir Starmer has resigned is because his communication as a person was very dry and very poor
1:14:47
and he came in off the back. Okay, we had Liz Truss, we had Rishi
1:14:53
but he came off the back of Boris Johnson who sat there with personality politics basically wanging on about stuff he hadn even achieved but pretending he had You know and so Keir Starmer being a very straight down the line you know legal person
1:15:10
Very, exactly. We needed that. We needed that antidote because we were tired of the country
1:15:16
But the problem is with that comes restrictions. He probably hampered the press office and said, I don't want you to say that
1:15:23
I don't want you to talk about that. We can't say that. And that absolutely, the ink is absolutely dry
1:15:28
whereas on that deal. So the press office probably had great ideas
1:15:33
and was trying to put out press releases every single day about the achievements that Keir Starmer achieved
1:15:38
And all the ones you've talked about, we didn't hear about those. I think it's more likely not to
1:15:43
I mean, just to not challenge your thesis, but to just adapt it
1:15:48
I think it's more likely that they were rubbish in the comms office and he left them to it
1:15:53
he left them to it. You know what, James? I said to the researchers
1:15:57
that I thought the press office had missed a trick, but I didn't want to be cruel to my profession
1:16:02
Fair enough. I can. I was trying to be kinder. I know you can
1:16:06
but I agree with you. I think the, whoever the, I don't even know because I'm out of the industry now
1:16:11
and I have a different business. I resigned through ill health. I'm sorry. That's okay
1:16:16
But I think the press office has missed a major trick during his time in office
1:16:22
and that's a real shame. Well, I find this really interesting. They had a crack with Tim Allen
1:16:29
who was very much from the Tony Blair years as director of comms
1:16:34
Of comms. I don't know. And I think Matthew Doyle had a go if he's not still there
1:16:40
But there was no Alistair Campbell figure. That much is clear. No, exactly
1:16:44
Hang on, because my response to this has usually been, over the course of the last two years
1:16:50
is that you could have had the finest spin doctor in the world in the job, but they're never going to convince the Daily Mail to stop writing Bilge
1:16:57
or the Daily Telegraph, or the Daily Express, or any of the historically Tony Gallagher
1:17:02
the Paul Dacre protégé over at the Times, when he's not dancing to Rupert Murdoch's tune
1:17:06
he's dancing to what he can remember of Paul Dacre's. You could have the finest communication scene in the history of humanity
1:17:13
80% to 90% of the media, before you've even got to the social media sewers
1:17:17
are going to be describing him as being awful, even if he cured the common cold
1:17:23
This is never going to stop as well. You're quite right. The scum, the sale, the excrete
1:17:29
all of those, I absolutely abhor them. They are just... So what would you do then as a director of comms
1:17:35
How are you going to get them to do what? Because this is what people still rely on for their information
1:17:40
What are you going to do to get them to print positive stuff? The problem is, it's not just a press issue
1:17:46
we're up against multi-millionaires funding the likes of these newspapers in offshore tax havens
1:17:53
They have got money to waste and bung in pockets. They have got money coming out of their ears
1:18:00
And the problem is the likes of The Guardian, for example, always just desperate for money
1:18:06
Every time I try and read something, they're desperate for a donation or a paywall
1:18:10
You know, I just want to read the story. Yeah, well, you've got to pay the journalist. We're going off on a bit of a tangent
1:18:15
And I do, and I do. I do donate regularly, but I will not put any pennies in the pocket
1:18:21
How do you get the right-wing client media to give a Labour prime minister
1:18:25
or even a Labour leader, because it happens in opposition as well, a fair crack of the whip? Remember, Nigel Farage took £5 million in secret
1:18:31
I know, how nice. And Keir Starmer accepted some spectacles and a couple of suits
1:18:35
and you'd have thought from reading the two stories that one had happened and the other one didn't
1:18:39
Quite right, and I don't see any of the right-wing press saying anything about that being a bad thing to you
1:18:44
Not really, no. Although it is why he's gone silent, I think, because he's very frightened of actually being asked questions
1:18:49
by people who are normally very, shall we say, amenable. Of course, one or two will still be able to conduct interviews with him
1:18:55
without asking him about the five million quid he secretly accepted from a stable coin billionaire
1:19:02
And of course, I'm just asking questions. We don't know how much money he accepted from other billionaires
1:19:07
in return for unspecified responses. we will probably never know because he ain't going to tell us
1:19:15
It may not be any, it may just be the one, it may just be five million quid, but it may be loads more
1:19:19
This is a bloke that, of course, would offer public support for the IRA if you send him 80 quid on Cameo
1:19:24
so God knows what you get for five million. But he's unlikely ever to tell us
1:19:28
So I take Kirsty's point. I don't know, though, and I should know, but I don't know
1:19:34
You read that list, stronger economy, wages outstripping inflation, investment in infrastructure, NHS waiting lists down
1:19:40
workers' and renters' rights bills. They're big deals, though. That's why the right wing hate them
1:19:45
Defence spending up, not by enough, according to John Healy, his own defence secretary, but still up
1:19:50
Small boats down, asylum hotels, the use of asylum hotels down. Immigration, which he didn't mention, has absolutely plummeted
1:19:57
to the point where some very clever people think it might even be moving into zero territory
1:20:01
Net migration might be moving into zero territory sooner rather than later
1:20:06
Led the line on Ukraine, recognised the state of Palestine, refused to get involved in Donald Trump's ludicrous war against Iran
1:20:14
which literally nobody, in retrospect, can think was the wrong idea, except possibly Donald Trump
1:20:18
And he's mad. So let's not count him. So there's all sorts of stuff there
1:20:22
and yet, Kirsty's dead right. You wouldn't know it, would you, from a cursory glance at much of the British media
1:20:28
and that's before you even get to the sewer of social media. But I don't know
1:20:32
The only guest I was thinking of booking today was Alistair Campbell, actually. Just because I don't know
1:20:36
and I haven't spoken to Alistair Campbell for a while, but I don't know whether or not a different comms department
1:20:43
could have done a much, much better job, because Campbell and Blair, they wooed some of the organs
1:20:48
that would be historically diametrically opposed to any form of a Labour government
1:20:52
You also had a lot of fatigue kicking in in 97. The Tories had been in power for 18 years
1:20:57
so it was a little bit like Starmer taking over, because everyone had actually had enough of what went before
1:21:03
but they, you know, Tony Blair is godfather to Rupert Murdoch, one of Rupert Murdoch's children
1:21:09
I think that's an often overlooked element. There was very little prospect of Keir Starmer being invited
1:21:14
to take up that kind of role. The relations were not anywhere like as cordial
1:21:20
but I just don't know whether a genius of communications would have been able to do immeasurably
1:21:25
a much, much, much better job of getting some of the achievements over the wire
1:21:30
than the team that he had. And ultimately, it's his job, isn't it
1:21:35
Ultimately, it's his job to talk a good game. And he didn't
1:21:40
Afzal is in High Wycombe. Afzal, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Hello, mate
1:21:45
Just like to say, I think it's a lack of political instinct. I think the policy is in the wrong direction
1:21:51
And I think that delivery hasn't been quick enough. And I think on that final point
1:21:57
the most potent example would be the social media ban. I mean, this is what people were talking about six months ago
1:22:03
And even before that, it was already being suggested by parents, being suggested by teachers' unions
1:22:09
And it takes so long for them to move the levers of government
1:22:13
to do this, which they did in a day. I don't... I mean, Australia, I think, were the first in the world to do it
1:22:18
and they did it in December. Mm. And it's June. Right. It not like a year even Mm They trialled it in one of their state governments before So they trialed it across an entire state and then it went nationwide But it went nationwide very quickly after that
1:22:37
But over here, I mean, the announcing a consultation, and then you do a consultation
1:22:43
all it looks like from the outside, from a citizen perspective, is you're giving the opportunity to big companies to say
1:22:49
hey, look, oh, yeah, you know, this is evidence presented that social media isn't bad for children
1:22:54
when in reality everyone knows it is. So why even take time on that
1:22:58
And that's what I mean by political instinct, is you have to say, this is going to be our thing
1:23:03
And I think that extends to the media as well. I mean, I saw on The Telegraph
1:23:09
I think the second or third day after he got elected, were saying he should reside because he only won with 33% of the vote nationally
1:23:15
I've never seen The Telegraph care about electoral reform or the electoral system before that day
1:23:21
and it blew my mind. But at that point, I knew the media is going to give this guy a tough ride the whole time
1:23:26
and he needs to take them on in some sort of way
1:23:29
This is, yeah, okay, I can coalesce around this with you and with Kirsty
1:23:34
So when they were kicking his head in for accepting some spectacles from a colleague
1:23:38
from a Labour peer, Waheed Ali, who let Starmer's son stay in his flat
1:23:45
and it's a friend. It's not like a complete stranger who lives in Thailand
1:23:49
and uses a foreign name to do business there. It's a close friend and colleague
1:23:53
who was in Downing Street and part of the Labour Party team
1:23:57
part of Keir Starmer's team, so Starmer should have just come out and said, yeah, I took some suits and some spectacles off him
1:24:02
because he wanted to give them to me and I didn't want to be rude and say, no, let's just list all the things Boris Johnson took off various donors
1:24:07
and then forgot about. Boris Johnson moved into a house in the JCB owner's garden
1:24:12
after he stopped being Prime Minister. Most rich people have got peacocks to show to their guests
1:24:17
and illustrate how rich they are. JCB boss has an actual form of Prime Minister
1:24:22
that's what I would have liked to have seen. A touch of what Angela Rayner might have done
1:24:25
when her back was against the wall and just come out swinging. He never swung, did he
1:24:30
He never swung. He didn't. And that's what people want from a Labour prime minister
1:24:34
We haven't put you there to take on, you know, the forces of, you know, monopolies
1:24:39
and the corporate elite just to be like, oh, yeah, we'll roll over at the first instance of it
1:24:44
That's not what we want. I mean, if you look at Zach Lansley, and this is why people like him
1:24:48
When the Daily Mail started, you know, talking to his former family members or whatever
1:24:53
He went straight after them. He said, look, this is what you're trying to do to dig up dirt on me
1:24:57
Don't do it. And he refused to speak to the Telegraph, which is..
1:25:01
It's tricky to do that if you want to be Prime Minister, or if you are Prime Minister, but I don't..
1:25:07
And he probably is quite a good example of this, of someone just absolutely refusing to play the game
1:25:14
and someone's going to have to at some point. They went after Ed Miliband's dead dad
1:25:19
His dead dad. And Miliband said, could I possibly have a right of reply to that
1:25:23
And they said yes, and they published it. And on the same double-page spread, they published a doubling down on their attacks on his dead dad
1:25:29
That's how evil these people are, and that's what you're up against if you are not dedicated to the interests of wealth as a politician in this country
1:25:36
So you've covered two angles. Number one is the public good, which would be the social media ban
1:25:42
Even if it doesn't work, at least we tried, and we think it will. And number two is the personal, as opposed to the political
1:25:49
which is just show me that you fight for something. What's that line from Hamilton, Afzal
1:25:55
You're asking the wrong person. Are you serious? You've never seen Hamilton? I haven't
1:25:59
Well, that's my gift to you. Go and see it now. Or listen to the soundtrack. If you don't stand for anything, Burr, you'll fall for anything
1:26:07
Or words to that effect. And that's the point, isn't it? Is that you saw a little bit of that human side
1:26:15
when he was talking about his children earlier. and it has emerged a few times when he talks about family, actually
1:26:20
when he talks about his parents, he talks about his late brother, Nick. That humanity, you kind of wanted to see it
1:26:27
in a political context as well, or in a personal context as well
1:26:32
You wouldn't want him to fake it. But no one swung... He didn't swing
1:26:36
and as Daphne points out, no one else really swung for him. I don't know whether it's pie in the sky
1:26:41
whether it's fanciful to suggest that our right-wing media now, which is almost all of it
1:26:45
is so utterly bent. If they weren't bent before Brexit and Boris Johnson
1:26:49
imagine how bent they must be now. I remember hearing someone say, oh, we shouldn't talk about Brexit anymore
1:26:54
Same kind of person that might use the phrase Trump derangement syndrome
1:26:58
People who have been historically and epically wrong about everything, everything, go after people like Keir Starmer
1:27:05
as if he were public enemy number one. And we, or they, never fight back
1:27:13
They never really fight back. BBC never does a job on the Daily Mail like the Daily Mail does on the BBC
1:27:19
So it has to be impartial. I don't quite get it. It's almost as if, I don't know
1:27:26
either you come down to their level and fight fire with fire or you leave the pitch clear to the people with the flamethrowers
1:27:34
and just sit there sort of waving your fire extinguishers. It needs a bit of work, that ogy, but, you know, you get the picture
1:27:42
James O'Brien on LBC. when the deadline for nominations is reached so july the 9th for that i should be back by the
1:27:50
16th i think when uh the ballots will close in the event of there being any sort of leadership
1:27:55
contest we may nudge along next into the question of whether you want to see one but i'm far from
1:28:00
done with the question of what what did for starmer what made his premiership or indeed him so brittle
1:28:06
is he a victim of circumstance or is he um his own worst enemy if you like two people that i
1:28:13
often turn to when I want to be I want to have a little help thinking
1:28:19
about things are both writers, one called John Elledge, one called Dorian Linsky, they've both
1:28:25
had very interesting contributions to make on this question. I'll go with John Elledge first
1:28:31
Starmer is not only incapable of making difficult decisions, he seems not to understand
1:28:35
it's his job. I've had it from multiple sources that he gets angry when officials decline
1:28:39
to say which course of action is better, even though sometimes it's not clear which is better
1:28:43
It's a trade-off or all options have risks. That is why there's no coherence to our immigration or tax policies
1:28:49
Starmer refuses to meet MPs unless it's absolutely unavoidable. He doesn't like ministers who promote their own ideas
1:28:54
but doesn't seem to have any of his own. He has utterly failed to articulate how he wants to change the country
1:28:59
or what he thinks this government is for, his government is for
1:29:03
He's presided over policies that have taken rights from protesters, from migrants, from refugees and from trans people
1:29:09
He's made speeches and pursued immigration reforms intended to impress the far right, who are never going to vote for him, while alienating his own voters
1:29:17
He has seemed entirely disinterested in the fact that the higher education system, which is a competitive advantage, a major export industry and a huge platform for regional economies, all at once is collapsing
1:29:30
and on multiple occasions when coked up racist thugs have been committing acts of violence
1:29:35
and mass civil disorder on our streets, he has been, at best, reluctant to get in front of a camera
1:29:40
and say these people are racist thugs who will be punished by the full force of the law
1:29:45
Pensioners who support the Palestinians, by contrast, he is happy to throw away the key
1:29:50
So there is quite a lot to get your teeth into there and Dorian Linsky, who's written a brilliant book
1:29:56
about George Orwell and does an excellent podcast you We're called the origin story with Ian Dunst
1:30:02
It takes a slightly different position, or rather crystallizes and briefer. You may disagree or rightly point out that consequences matter far more than motives
1:30:12
but my take is that the driver of the most morally repugnant decision Starmer took
1:30:16
was cowardice rather than malice. Maybe that's actually worse. The damage weak men do
1:30:23
If I think about the worst things Starmer did, I don't think he truly believed in any of them
1:30:28
I think I'd agree with the last line when I think of the worst things Starmer did
1:30:34
I don't think he truly agreed with any of them and it's of a piece with the idea of standing up to critics
1:30:39
standing up to noise, standing up to liars I think maybe if the Rent Boy thing had happened
1:30:45
I don't know if it lands with him though if you don't know what I'm talking about
1:30:49
it was absolutely everywhere on social media particularly Elon Musk's platform that some Russian-sponsored arsonists
1:30:59
who set fire to the Prime Minister's property were actually male prostitutes angry over unpaid bills
1:31:06
Every time I say that out loud, I feel a little bit of my hope for this country die
1:31:12
Because so many people believed that. Some continued to. Actually, Lenin was still selling the grift
1:31:18
after the arsonist had been convicted. I don't know whether he was in Moscow at the time
1:31:23
or whether he'd just gone back from a trip that he enjoyed with Elon Musk's father
1:31:27
a man best known for impregnating his own stepdaughter twice. Hashtag save our women, hashtag protect our girls
1:31:35
But when I say that out loud, and I know that loads of people
1:31:41
probably more people even that believed that COVID could be caused by 5G phone masks
1:31:47
that is a mark of how mad everything has become, how ugly and wrong everything
1:31:52
How do you govern in a country where people believe bills like that
1:31:58
Nigel Farage takes five million pounds from a foreign-based billionaire who uses a foreign name to do business despite being British
1:32:04
Oh, that's fine. Yeah, no, he did it in secret, and you've got no idea whether he took millions more from millions of others
1:32:11
Doesn't matter, he's great. Keir Starmer, oh yeah, he's the bloke who got his..
1:32:18
They set his old house on fire when his sister-in-law was in it, But it's his own fault because he doesn't pay male prostitutes
1:32:24
after using their services. That's the same country and the same people
1:32:29
Supremely comfortable with one of them, which is true. Absolutely outraged by the other, which is a lie
1:32:35
So what did for him? Starmer or the surrounding drama? Lou's in York. Lou, what do you reckon
1:32:41
How can I just say it's pretty rude to gazump a guest with exactly what they were going to say
1:32:45
with an incredibly long quote before they come on. What are you talking about
1:32:49
I have no idea what you're about to say. So that first quote you gave there
1:32:53
where the commentator was basically saying, Starmer compromised on everything. That was John Elledge, yeah
1:33:00
John Elledge, yeah. Everything Starmer did was to appease an imaginary person in his head
1:33:05
who didn't exist. He comes in and immediately goes, right. Well, that's better. That's pithier
1:33:10
And they're professionals. So you take a lap of honour. Well, the thing is, I think the thing with Starmer is
1:33:15
he was constantly trying to play both sides in a way that neither side believed him or liked him
1:33:20
He was constantly coming forward going, look, I will cut benefits. You know who benefits I'm going to cut
1:33:25
Pensioners benefits. Oh, no, the one group of people whose benefits you can't cut without facing enormous backlash
1:33:31
Oh, I'm going to come out and say that I'm in favor of trans and gay rights in this country
1:33:35
I'm going to have very thoughtful talks. I'm going to come on LBC and not define what a woman is
1:33:39
I won't say a thing when the Supreme Court comes around and says that actually trans women and trans men shouldn't be treated the same as their cis counterparts
1:33:47
Oh, I'm going to come out and say that I'm going to be hard and tough on immigration and show the whole country that I'm really tough on immigration
1:33:53
Oh, the one party that has that issue capitalised and their supporters still don't love me
1:33:58
And now the left wing of the party is looking at me going, who are you? We didn't vote for a Labour leader to be a right wing government
1:34:05
Some did. I mean, I mean, there are there are people leaning towards Labour who wanted to see action on immigration
1:34:12
But that doesn't mean that the action they've seen was the right action or even that they're applauding it
1:34:16
It's not quite, all I'm saying is, it's not quite as binary as you describe it
1:34:21
There are people minded to vote Labour who feel as if things are out of control
1:34:27
But of course, feeling something is not facts. And he failed on both fronts
1:34:34
He hasn't assuaged those feelings. And the facts are that the numbers have come down
1:34:39
but the economy will be weakened further as a consequence. But it was a total lie that bringing down immigration
1:34:46
was ever going to improve the economy. Bringing down immigration is basically a feel-good
1:34:51
for right-wing people who want to see the numbers go down. Yeah, but also for left-wing people. That's the only quibble I've got with you
1:34:56
is that it's also true of left-wing people. I mean, this is what the Red Wall was about
1:35:02
There's people who were Labour through and through who voted for Brexit. They're not a mythical constituency
1:35:07
people who identify as left-wing, who feel that their lives have been diminished by immigration
1:35:12
Now, their lives have not been diminished by immigration, and the effort put in by the people who have diminished their lives
1:35:18
i.e. the people with all the money, who own the newspapers and the social media platforms
1:35:24
they have successfully seeded the idea that your life has been made worth by immigration
1:35:28
and Starmer fought from a position of defeat. He thought he would be able to win those people back
1:35:33
by reducing the numbers enormously. But the problem is, of course, that when the numbers are reduced enormously
1:35:38
nobody's life is going to improve. Exactly. Exactly. Fighting the feeling is not to do with actually fighting immigration
1:35:45
It is fighting the feeling. And the lies of people like Farage. So this is actually something just to loop around on something you were saying earlier
1:35:53
about the rent boy conspiracy that Keir Starmer had. And you're in such despair at the idea that people can believe this story
1:35:59
Yeah. There is not a single person who believes in that story
1:36:03
who didn't already hate Keir Starmer. Of course. Don't lose your mind over this idea that, oh my God, how can people possibly believe this
1:36:09
the whole point of conspiracy theory is confirmation bias to the believer
1:36:13
It tells them something they already think. No, listen, two things. Number one, it's far too late for me to resist the loss of my mind
1:36:21
That ship sailed years ago. And number two, I can despair at that
1:36:26
As a patriot, actually, as a patriotic person, I can despair at what has been done to the population of the country that I love
1:36:33
to people who were not born like this. And listen, hating Keir Starmer is one thing
1:36:38
but believing something so obviously ridiculous, like believing that, you know, the emperor is wearing robes
1:36:45
or whatever fairy tale we prefer, that's a tragic moment in our public discourse, mate
1:36:50
It just is. I would push back and say, and I know this is going to sound a little bit disingenuous
1:36:55
I don't think they really believe it. I think they like to believe it
1:37:00
I think they tell themselves they believe it because it makes a better story. In the same way that we all, on the other side of the Trump debate
1:37:06
like to laugh at all the stupid things Trump does and say, oh, isn't that ridiculous and terrible and all that? And okay, those things are actually happening because there's evidence
1:37:14
of it. They want their own little chuckle stories. They want their own little reflecting
1:37:17
pool that goes wrong. And so, hey, Kit Starr is really boring, but if we say that he's got
1:37:21
these rent boys that hate him, we can all have a chuckle down the pub. Isn't he awful that he has these rent boys he hasn paid They don really believe it It not actually changing their minds Well I hope you right in a way because it means that they easier to rescue than they would be if they did but I not sure I go 52 In fact that probably the split Some people
1:37:37
will be absolutely passionate about it, because what I discovered during COVID was the intoxicating
1:37:43
nature of a conspiracy theory, and you end up needing to believe it. It's the only group you've
1:37:47
ever really felt that you belong to. They're the only people that you feel a kinship with
1:37:52
are the people who are party to the same secret information that you're party to
1:37:55
And the worst thing you can do to these people is point out to them that the information they're party to
1:37:59
isn't information at all. It's lies. It's blatant lies. So I don't know
1:38:03
But I don't know what you were worried about. You knocked the previous commentators out of the park
1:38:08
And as I said, they were professionals. It's 12.01. James O'Brien on LBC
1:38:13
Five minutes after 12 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:38:19
see um it is obviously politics politics politics today some of the stuff that we haven't had time
1:38:24
to turn our attention to is that the uh well first line i think of the memo of understanding signed
1:38:30
between uh iran and the united states of america contained a pledge that neither side would threaten
1:38:36
the other so donald trump celebrated that signing by threatening iran which appears to have brought
1:38:41
about either a cessation or a pause of the negotiations that would move the ceasefire
1:38:44
onto the next level. So my Craig David paradigm still stands. Sign a ceasefire on a Friday
1:38:50
threaten your enemy on a Saturday, call the whole thing off on a Sunday
1:38:54
I'm not quite sure where we are on a Monday. I've got three missed informations for you
1:38:58
today, one of which I think doubles up as a woke watch. We haven't had a woke
1:39:02
watch for a while, and one of which possibly doubles up as an unhinged
1:39:07
headline. So three missed informations. One goes doubles on a woke watch, and one goes doubles on a
1:39:12
If you've no idea what I'm talking about, stay tuned to find out
1:39:16
And it is Windrush Day, somewhat overshadowed, of course, by political events, inevitably
1:39:22
But I will mark it today by hearing an extraordinary story that explains why it is so important that the government acts to provide proper legal support to some of the families still waiting for justice in that area
1:39:36
I suppose you have to point out that the political narrative at the moment is telling lies about anti-white racism while the Windrush victims remain largely uncompensated and often forgotten
1:39:51
Make of that what you will. Seven minutes after 12 is the time
1:39:54
So back to Starmer's resignation and still got a question about what you think was the biggest flaw in the whole project
1:40:06
So it could be, as we've discovered actually, that for me I think the biggest thing
1:40:10
in terms of what I want, what I'd like to see, I just wish someone would stand up to these bullies, you know
1:40:18
It's not always an easy thing to do. To properly stand up to bullies
1:40:22
you have to become a bit of a bully yourself. But I think you should be comfortable bullying bullies
1:40:28
as long as you don't bully anybody else. And it's not that difficult to work out who the bullies are
1:40:33
So it would be nice to see a Labour figure really standing up to the bullies
1:40:40
And I'm not sure Burnham is the man that's going to do that. But that's probably my starter for 10
1:40:45
I really like Dorian Linsky's observation about cowardice. I think I'd be a little kinder
1:40:49
I'd probably call it querulousness or something like that. But there's almost an allergy
1:40:55
I don't know if it's a lawyer thing, if it's a legal thing, or if it's more personal than that
1:41:00
but almost an allergy to taking a strong decision and then sticking to it
1:41:05
Because a consequence of that querulousness, if that is indeed the right word
1:41:09
is the impermanence of decisions. You know, the regime, the administration is typified by what critics will call U-turns
1:41:23
which I suppose admirers could call changes of mind. but if it looks like a U-turn and it screeches like a U-turn
1:41:29
the chances are it's a U-turn. And the reason why you get U-turns is because there is an absence of certainty
1:41:35
Now, an absence of certainty can be a good thing, right? An absence of certainty can be a good thing
1:41:40
because some people are certain that something is true that is not true, and the more certain you are that something that isn't true is true
1:41:46
the more danger you are in and the more danger you pose to others
1:41:51
Back to the male prostitutes and the Keir Starmer story. but if you're never certain about anything
1:41:56
that's it isn't it that's it we got there nine minutes after twelve on the day of Keir Starmer's resignation
1:42:06
tell me something he's certain about tell me something you're certain Keir Starmer is certain about
1:42:11
go on you can't something you're certain that he's certain about
1:42:23
except oddly love of his family and love of his country which are the moments where his voice
1:42:29
cracks which are the moments where he seems most human what what is kid what are you certain that
1:42:35
kir starmer is certain about so i suppose we'd have to call it the absence of certainty the and
1:42:42
you know what another word for certainty is conviction it's an absence of conviction what
1:42:50
us the biggest thing, I've not said this before, it's only just occurred to me now, in that moment
1:42:54
you heard it happen live on your radio, the absence of conviction
1:42:58
And again, I don't know that Andy Burnham, from what I remember of him in Westminster, is necessarily someone possessed
1:43:06
of oodles of conviction. So that's mine. Of course, yours doesn't have to be the same. What would you put
1:43:13
on the list? Is it something outside that happened to him? Is it drama
1:43:17
or is it something inextricably part of him, in and of him
1:43:23
Is it Starmer? 03456060973. And then I'd like to move on, if I may, this hour
1:43:31
to the question, and anyone can answer this. I'll tell you what, if you're enjoying this
1:43:35
and you might be a bit new to it and you've been thinking, oh, I'd like to get involved, but I don't know how
1:43:39
or I don't know if it's really for me, here's a nice easy one for you. Do you want a battle
1:43:45
Do you want a contest? You're not going to get one involving Wes Streeting
1:43:50
I would say that Angela Rayner's statement, at the very least, suggests that she is keeping her powder dry
1:43:56
She has not, and could easily have, pledged loyalty to a Andy Burnham premiership
1:44:02
She could easily have thrown her not inconsiderable political weight behind Andy Burnham
1:44:09
Wes Streeting has chosen to do so. He broke early, and he broke fast
1:44:13
and he has nailed his colours to Andy Burnham's mast, in expectation, I would say
1:44:18
of holding one of the great officers of state by the time Parliament comes back
1:44:22
And that would probably be Chancellor. The other two, of course, alongside Prime Minister
1:44:27
which he's decided is not for him at this juncture, would be Foreign Secretary or Home Secretary
1:44:32
So, I... I can't say I don't know. I've been saying that far too much
1:44:38
I'd quite like to see some sort of contest, he says, at 12 minutes past 12
1:44:43
for the very simple reason that I want to see Burnham set his stall out properly
1:44:47
Then I've got something to judge him by. Then I can say a year from now or two years from now
1:44:52
well, he didn't do this and he didn't do that. And when you coming in as Prime Minister your quote manifesto end quotes is unique because you can be held to it You campaign in opposition you discover the reality when you achieve power
1:45:05
and you have to abandon some of the things that you claimed in opposition. Or, of course, you can be more cynical about it and say, well, I'll make promises in opposition
1:45:12
that I know I'm not going to be able to keep when I'm in power. But if you're campaigning to become leader and prime minister at the same time
1:45:19
then it's a very different metric, isn't it? It's a very different equation
1:45:26
So do you want... I mean, who... So there's two questions, isn't there
1:45:30
You can't tell me that you want to see some sort of leadership contest without telling me who you want to see in it and why
1:45:36
So I still want more on the brittleness of Keir Starmer, the vulnerabilities of Keir Starmer
1:45:40
how much of the wounds that ultimately did for him, how many of them were self-inflicted
1:45:45
and how many of them were the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
1:45:49
And then alongside that, the question of whether or not you actually want to see some sort of leadership contest
1:45:58
Because I'd say it's less likely now than it was on Friday, which I think might have been the last time I asked you
1:46:04
Do you want Andy Burnham to progress to Downing Street unchallenged? Or do you, as a neutral or as a Labour diehard or as a sworn enemy of everything decent and honourable and left-wing
1:46:18
do you want Andy Burnham to actually face obstacles, to actually face challenges
1:46:23
Or, of course, because it's your show as much as mine, do you want someone else to be Prime Minister
1:46:28
not Andy Burnham? And if so, who and why? Hit the numbers now. You will get through
1:46:33
Phil's in whole, I think. Phil, question or answer? Got a bit previous
1:46:37
It's not Thursday. Phil, what would you like to say? Deputy PM, it's our time, James
1:46:44
It's been a while. It's been a while. It has. So where are you this morning
1:46:48
and don't say Hull. I'm in Hull. So, yeah, it's been a hull of a time as well, right, at the moment
1:46:55
Stop it. So, I'm looking at this from two perspectives in terms of our initial question
1:47:02
So, there's the external and there's the internal. So, the external, obviously, Labour won a loveless landslide victory
1:47:11
but it was under the, you know, under the, underpinned by Broken Britain, despair, anguish
1:47:18
You know, we need to get past everything that's going on and we need something different
1:47:23
So throwing everything out and just saying, right, we need you in power. But obviously when Keir Starmer came into power and the Labour Party came into power, we saw the riots
1:47:33
We saw the prisons, which were full to overflowing. And obviously we had the, as we've mentioned before, the press attacks as well
1:47:43
So externally, you know, Labour was essentially handed a hospital pass. It was sort of like they're in a no-win situation in that position
1:47:51
Deliberately as well, because it was, what was his name? Alex Chalk? Alex Chalk? Is that a name? Is that a person
1:48:00
One of the senior Tories in the last administration had pointed out to Rishi Sunak tirelessly
1:48:05
that the prison situation was untenable. And they'd already, of course, started releasing people early
1:48:10
so that they could put new people in to begin their sentences. But they did absolutely nothing to alleviate it
1:48:16
because they knew that it was a problem imminently to be inherited by Keir Starmer
1:48:20
And, of course, that wasn't reported, honestly, across much of the media, and it made Starmer look awful
1:48:25
And then you've got the Farage riots, which, again, saw an extraordinary swelling of incoherent hatred
1:48:32
being directed at the Prime Minister by people who wanted to set fire to foreigners
1:48:37
Yeah, it was terrible. So, obviously, they were left in a rock and a hard place in that situation
1:48:43
Now, obviously, this was compounded internally, so this is where the internal factors came in, was compounded by the decision-making around the winter fuel payments
1:48:51
the farmers, obviously, you know, obviously that was explored. Not to say that that was wrong, but I think the timing was wrong because it looked like he was attacking them
1:49:01
It looked like he was attacking the pensioners. So all this really, I think, compounded to really put Keir Starmer and the Labour Party in a position
1:49:11
which basically they dug themselves into a bigger hole than they've been created
1:49:16
Was it timing or was it appetite? So the thing I would say to Andy Burnham
1:49:21
to ask me, which is obviously not going to happen, I would say don't announce anything that you're not prepared to defend to the death
1:49:30
Just in the first year or two, certainly in the first year, don't announce. So you've gone with two, you've gone with winter fuel
1:49:36
and you've gone with the most favourable inheritance tax circumstances for anyone in the country still being afforded to farmers
1:49:44
but less favourable than they were before. Announce those things, by all means
1:49:49
but defend them to the death. Don't you, Tom? Yeah, I think it is timing, only because
1:49:57
I think, as I say, just remember being underpinned by this anguish, this despair, this broken Britain
1:50:02
nothing works. People want to feel something, it's that perception, and we want to feel like something's changing
1:50:08
there's a move, even if it's small or little, what can be announced that's going to bring a bit of light, a positivity
1:50:14
And I think, yes, look at the important issues, but just say, look, these are the feel-good policies
1:50:20
whatever that looks like. Obviously, they announced these preschool meals, which was great
1:50:24
but anything that's just going to create that idea and perception, this is where, obviously, you have to be clever around
1:50:31
where Labour weren't that streetwise around, you know, what's the public sentiment, and how can we really galvanise people
1:50:37
to see, okay, we are, there is some change, there is some light at the end of the tunnel
1:50:41
even though, you know, we know there's some dark bits underneath that
1:50:45
And you took my word away from me, because conviction politics was going to be really, really
1:50:51
key to that. Obviously, the communication, as we've said as well, but it's perception, and as we know
1:50:55
perception is such a powerful thing. So if it was perceived by the public and the
1:50:59
movement that things were moving in that bright way, even though things like the Winter
1:51:03
Fuel, whatever, potentially, in principle were right, is a wrong time, because
1:51:07
the public were thinking, well, you're attacking us still. This is still going down the same route
1:51:12
as what we've had over the last 14 years. Nothing's changed, X, Y, Z
1:51:15
It's the three Cs. It's the three Cs. Conviction, communicators, and the characters on social media
1:51:26
Yeah. And we've let, you know, and something that we both spoke about for a long time
1:51:33
obviously the whole Brexit thing, that's been allowed to fester, you know
1:51:37
and it's not being called out as it should have been called out. And it can be called out without saying
1:51:42
we're going back into the EU. But just say, this has been as a result
1:51:46
because that's let reform... Because, you know, certainty. Certainty. So I know that Keir Starmer believes
1:51:51
that Brexit was the stupidest thing any country's ever done to itself. And yet, if you watched him exclusively
1:51:57
as Prime Minister, you would not be certain of that. No. Not at all
1:52:01
That's it, isn't it? What are you certain that he's certain of? Yeah
1:52:05
Yeah, and you don't know, because he's, and the thing is, his character doesn't allow us to see that, you know, he's a plain, balanced sort of individual
1:52:12
but in today's climate, that's not going to cut it anymore. And when it coupled with the querulousness the kind of real reluctance almost a psychopathological reluctance to make decisions which everybody in the room where it happens has well not everybody I haven spoken to everybody but lots of people who are party to what happens in the room where it happens are united in the shock at how undecisive how indecisive he is
1:52:41
And of course, if you are indecisive, then you end up U-turning, because you're never certain enough about anything to see it through
1:52:49
Phil, take it as a compliment. I'm five minutes late for this. James O'Brien on LBC
1:52:53
...in a peevish, whining or fretful manner. I think the French word is Farage
1:52:59
It often applies to a person who chronically grumbles about minor grievances
1:53:04
Actually, that's not fair to Nigel Farage. He constantly grumbles about non-existent grievances
1:53:08
Andrew suggests that the word I was looking for is actually querulous-less-less. Querulous-less-less
1:53:14
No, I'm going to go with either circumspect or wishy-washy. That's not right
1:53:19
Vacillating. He vacillates. He doesn't seem to be certain about anything in terms of policy pronouncements
1:53:27
Maybe he's certain about vague ambitions, but not specific policy announcements. And that has to be part of the reason why his premiership has come to a juddering halt after just two years
1:53:38
I don't have any calls at the moment on the question of whether or not you want a leadership election
1:53:43
So take that as an invitation, a call to arms. Do you want to see Andy Burnham progress to Downing Street unchallenged
1:53:49
Or do you want to see someone challenge him? In which case, who and why
1:53:53
0345 6060973. And before we go to Julie in Plymouth, which we will do, I promise, Julie
1:53:59
stay where you are, I have some fun to deal with. Shall we start with the missed information
1:54:03
that is neither a woke... Oh, no, this one is the one
1:54:07
that is both a missed information and a woke watch. I've stopped sulking over the fact
1:54:12
that the Keir Starmer has resigned sting got made within about 10 minutes of it happening
1:54:17
whilst I usually wait six months for mine. I'm just going to celebrate the ones that I did eventually get
1:54:22
So we'll begin with a missed information. Missed information. Thank you, Emily
1:54:28
But also a woke watch. Woke watch. Anti-woke cop calls for new rules
1:54:36
amid storm over two-tier policing. So if, God forbid, you were reading the Daily Mail this morning
1:54:42
what would you take away from that headline? You'd take away the idea, I think
1:54:46
that an anti-woke cop agreed with the idea of two-tier policing and was going to do something about it, wouldn't you
1:54:53
Anti-woke cop calls for new rules amid storm over two-tier policing. Which, to be fair, they've put in quotes
1:54:59
Two-tier policing. What you would actually find, if you bothered to read into the story
1:55:04
was that he doesn't actually accept the idea of two-tier policing at all
1:55:11
He, in fact, said, I'm not naive. This is the Chief Constable of Greater Manchester, Sir Stephen Watson
1:55:16
I'm not naive to the fact that, in the light of the murder of Henry Novak, This idea of two-tier policing is widespread
1:55:21
I don't think it's justified, but I can understand where it's coming from
1:55:25
So can I, mate. Racist liars. So the headline gives you the impression that this anti-woke cop is going to fix two-tier policing
1:55:32
whereas if you read to the... It's about the 12th, 13th, 14th paragraph of the story
1:55:37
you'll actually learn that he doesn't think it even exists, which is a classic example of misinformation
1:55:46
Misinformation. As is this... Well, actually, no, I'll speak to Julie first. I've got two more
1:55:49
One of them doubles up as an unhinged headline and one of them is a pure misinformation. But first, Julie is in Plymouth
1:55:54
Julie, which of the many, many questions I've asked today would you like to answer
1:56:00
Oh, hello, James. Hello. First time speaking to you, long-time listener. You're very welcome
1:56:05
Love your work. I'd just like to say, first of all, that I'm the type of person that follows politics
1:56:10
and doesn't use social media very much. So I didn't even hear about the rent boy
1:56:19
Oh, lucky you. Nor did I. I got it in my inbox for months
1:56:24
I can tell because I can click on these messages and see what messages they've sent to the station before
1:56:30
So the people say, why aren't you talking about the Rent Boys? And I'd click on it and it would be, you know
1:56:35
massive racists, big Nigel Farage fans, let's deport millions of people. Go back far enough
1:56:41
they'd be wanging on about vaccines and 5G phone masks calling COVID
1:56:46
So that's how I knew it was real. I didn't realise how widespread it was
1:56:51
I'm not that sort of person, so I feel better that I had no idea until I heard you mention it
1:56:56
Okay, down to business. I'm sad to see Kirgo, but obviously we live in a democratic country
1:57:02
hopefully still, so I wish Mr Burnham all the best, and I will support Labour on the basis of
1:57:09
do not want these characters that want to ruin our country to be allowed in
1:57:15
but Mr. Starmer was definitely certain that he wanted to turn the tank around
1:57:20
that was stuck after 14 years of the Tory government all our public..
1:57:26
Yeah, but that's a vague ambition it's not a specific principle or policy
1:57:31
I think it was for him because I think it was about stabilising
1:57:35
trying to bring the nation together trying to bring international affairs together
1:57:40
trying to find our place on the stage trying to be more inclusive, cover as many sections of our society as possible
1:57:50
Maybe that's the vagueness. But I don't feel he's done anything personally for me
1:57:56
but I feel he's done things for lots of different groups that needed some support and help and acknowledgement
1:58:04
Now, that makes a better country for me. That's the way I view it
1:58:08
It wasn't obviously enough for the people that like the vision, don't want compromise
1:58:13
I don't think there was much of a vision, Julie. Not really
1:58:18
I mean, because he kept changing his mind. Every time he announced something big, he unannounced it a few weeks or even days later
1:58:26
It's an extraordinary list of things. I'm going to run through it for you, but I hope you don't feel that I'm badgering you
1:58:33
Student loans, local elections, digital ID, pub business rates, farmers' inheritance tax, winter fuel payments, welfare reform
1:58:41
the grooming gang's inquiry, the island of stranger comments, the two-child benefit cap, the WASPy women compensation
1:58:46
rights for workers and income tax thresholds. I can't get it out, but there's a longer list of the things that he has done
1:58:54
that are going to benefit many, many people. But none of them are even vaguely controversial, really
1:59:00
As soon as there's a bit of a controversy surrounding something, or as soon as some people question it
1:59:05
he kind of undoes it again. Isn't it the loudest voices, though, James
1:59:10
And it's like the right-wing press and the farages and journalists that bow to that
1:59:16
Well, none of those things. Well, then he has to hold his course
1:59:20
I mean, you can point at stuff that was ridiculous, like the fuss they made about his curry
1:59:24
when they were trying to pretend that Boris Johnson wasn't a delinquent or the fuss they made about his spectacles and suits
1:59:31
Nigel Farish stood on a stage and said, I bought my spectacles myself
1:59:35
I think at that point he'd already trousered 5 million quid from a foreign-based billionaire who uses a foreign name
1:59:42
to do foreign business in a foreign country. Hashtag protect our borders
1:59:46
So there is always going to be evidence of how bonkers it is
1:59:50
to be left-wing in this country and pursuing or in power. But you can't just ignore that long list of things
1:59:59
that should have been... principles. They should have been points of battle. They should have
2:00:04
been things that he was certain about. He wasn't certain about any of them, because
2:00:08
he undid them all. Well, I wasn't happy with some of them, but that he undid
2:00:12
them, and I wasn't happy with some of them he raised. But at the same time
2:00:16
I think, you know, sometimes the left wing of the Parliamentary Labour
2:00:20
Party are disingenuous in the sense that, you know, they want to make trouble, and they
2:00:26
won't compromise either, and, you know, It's a difficult time to work to work
2:00:30
It is, and you're a generous person. You're clearly a generous person. But at the same time, I recognise that, you know
2:00:35
he's not what the nation wants. And that's because of his palette
2:00:41
his personality palette. There's something missing. On top of the politics of it
2:00:48
and quite what that was, I don't know, but probably the vacillation, probably the indecision
2:00:52
and the fact that, albeit that he is possessed of personal integrity
2:00:59
He didn't actually, in the final ysis, demonstrate much political, I don't want to say integrity
2:01:07
although it's probably the best word I could use. Let's just say certainty. I've got this statement from Volodymyr Zelensky
2:01:13
the leader of Ukraine, marking Keir Starmer's resignation. It's quite moving, actually. I'll share that with you
2:01:20
After the very latest headlines with Emilia Kotz, when we will also be catching up with a very powerful and moving story
2:01:26
to mark the, well, two things really, the fact that today is Windrush Day
2:01:30
and the fact that the Windrush cause is far from over. So back to our coverage of Keir Starmer's resignation imminently
2:01:37
but first, I feel it's right to mark Windrush Day and the ongoing struggle faced by that generation of people
2:01:43
as well as their families still pursuing the justice that they so obviously deserve
2:01:48
Here's Amelia. James O'Brien on LBC. A, how we ended up here as a country, and B, where we are likely to go next
2:01:57
But today is Windrush Day. You could perhaps be forgiven for thinking that the Windrush scandal had been satisfactorily resolved
2:02:05
Spoiler alert, it categorically hasn't. And few people know more about that than Pauline Campbell, who is the lawyer at justice for Windrush
2:02:15
and does all of that work pro bono to support victims. I'm going to talk to Pauline first, but then I'm going to introduce you to Louise Huey, whose late father, Herbert, is a very poignant and powerful example of just how unresolved and unfinished much of the Windrush business is
2:02:36
So, Pauline, to begin with you, did you think that the book would perhaps have been closed by now
2:02:45
I would have liked it to have been, but it's not. It definitely isn't. If anything, things are exacerbating and getting worse. And that's the problem. So when we come to days like this, we want to celebrate, but we can't really do that because we know there's so much more work to do
2:03:02
And what are the major areas that you want, well, in which that work needs to be done
2:03:09
The biggest one is the lack of legal funding. That's been the ongoing problem that every single organisation
2:03:16
and legal representative has been arguing for for so long. And it's like a broken record
2:03:22
We've been saying it over and over again that we need to be in line with the other schemes that are out there
2:03:28
We want compensation to be legally funded for those victims, for those people who are caught up in this
2:03:34
So you're either pursuing compensation or you're not entirely happy with the sort of one-size-fits-all settlement
2:03:39
that the government has suggested. But unless you've got private money to fund a legal fight
2:03:44
you either have to suck it up or just be quiet and sit down. Yeah, or you wait for the ombudsman who can help
2:03:50
but the parliamentary and health ombudsman who can assist. But the problem is that there's no dunder, everybody is
2:03:56
and you can't get to the ombudsman until you go through your MP
2:04:01
And that requires the MP filter, which also in itself takes months sometimes
2:04:05
because MPs are so busy, they break for the summer, so it's very difficult to get through that process
2:04:10
after you've already gone through the long appeal process within the scheme itself
2:04:16
Louise, I know you're not really here today to pursue compensation. It's more that you want the story of your father, Herbert, to be more widely known
2:04:26
In some ways it occurred to me when I was reading about him that he was a kind of early warning in some ways
2:04:33
of what it would be like to live without documentation in this country
2:04:37
because he was never really secure. He never owned his own house, never had a bank account or consistent work
2:04:45
And partly as a consequence of that, his relationship with your mum broke down and you didn't get back in touch until you yourself became a mother
2:04:51
Literally, I was 23 when we came back into contact. And what sort of state was his life in then
2:04:58
He was in survival mode. The best way to explain my dad is survival mode
2:05:06
He's got no house, no income, no, like, he wasn't, he didn't look great
2:05:16
He came here in 65. Yeah. Born in Jamaica. So very much part of that movement and that generation
2:05:23
and worked out earlier than some of the victims of Windrush that he didn't have the status that he presumed he had
2:05:33
And so he couldn't get on waiting lists. He couldn't get access to things that most of us take for granted
2:05:39
Literally, he couldn't get access to absolutely anything because all he has to prove his status here
2:05:44
is a stamp in his expired Jamaican passport. And that's never ever been sufficient evidence
2:05:50
for anything to apply for benefits. housing employment anything that you need to live basically He just didn have it So what would he do Sort of cash in hand Cash in hand jobs We supported him My brother and I have supported him over the years where we could do
2:06:06
He's been homeless. He's lived in garages. Well, he was, I think, 72 when you realised he'd been living in your shed
2:06:14
So he was living in my garden shed. He was 72. Cut a long story short, I managed to get him a property with the local authority
2:06:25
And he was so happy It was his first property, first house, first home, whatever you would like to call it
2:06:34
At the age of 72 But you couldn't get him a bank account
2:06:40
No bank account, still no bank account, still no contracts, no phone contracts
2:06:44
no line of credit, no private pensions, no investments, nothing, absolutely nothing
2:06:51
My dad left this world with one suitcase and a suitcase of clothes
2:06:56
and a briefcase full of documentations, which I found. Yeah. And which I realised dad was part of Windrush generation
2:07:06
Do you look back, and obviously you've been on a crash course
2:07:09
since you realised your dad was part of that movement of people
2:07:14
movement of humans. Do you look back and think that this was just all a terrible accident
2:07:20
a sort of institutional or governmental accident, or do you think that your father was a victim of something more sinister
2:07:26
Absolutely he's a victim of something more sinister. It's not an accident. This is not an accident
2:07:31
You've done this on purpose to these people. You've brought them here, they've helped rebuild your country
2:07:36
and then you've just treated them so disgracefully. Literally and my dad is not the only one in this situation. There's hundreds if not thousands of people even living like this in this day and age
2:07:48
Um, there was a fateful family trip to Jamaica wasn't there? Yeah, what happened then
2:07:53
So 2015 we went back to Jamaica my dad first time dad had been first time
2:07:58
Dad's been back to Jamaica since he was here We had thank you
2:08:04
you um we had uh gone with my son uh who has shares a different surname to me as well we the
2:08:11
way that we got to travel there was couldn't get a uk passport there was absolutely no records of
2:08:16
dad i've run home office and got passed from pillar to post literally so many times no records of dad
2:08:22
so i had to go to the jamaican high commission get emergency certificate to travel with him
2:08:28
which i had to prove where we were staying i had to give all the details of what we was doing
2:08:32
when we arrived back in Heathrow we both got detained, dad's got detained
2:08:36
because he hasn't got correct documentation and I got detained because my surname's different to my son's
2:08:41
I think we was there for over 6-7 hours trying to talk it out
2:08:48
we had no documentation I don't know how he even got out of there
2:08:52
if I'm all honest with you, I have no idea How did he cope with that
2:08:59
My dad, as I was sparing into Pauline he's so resilient he had to be
2:09:05
he was so strong he was amazing he was very cold though
2:09:11
he was very cold hearted very emotionless he had to build walls around him
2:09:16
to protect himself from the world but of course that would impact on his relationships with others
2:09:21
literally it's affected us as a family my older brother as well
2:09:25
it's affected the relationship with him it's affected everything and if I'm honest with you
2:09:31
If dad was still alive, I wouldn't even be here today because the embarrassment that my dad must have felt
2:09:36
living like that is horrendous. And it's not okay. It's not okay
2:09:41
It was something done to him, not something he had any responsibility for whatsoever
2:09:46
How many Hurberts are there still waiting for justice, Pauline? There's hundreds
2:09:52
And the difficulty that we have is that now I am representing Louise and her late father
2:09:59
I have a journey as all my legal colleagues have in proving that something happened to Herbert that
2:10:06
entitles him to justice not money compensation but justice and I know the hurdle that we've got
2:10:13
in front of us because the scheme is so rigid it's going to want me to produce documentary
2:10:20
evidence that Herbert lost out because of his lack of UK status and the paper trail I know is going
2:10:28
to be virtually impossible to find but i've put in a freedom of information i'm going to do
2:10:34
everything i can to see if we can get some form of justice for him but because of the way the
2:10:40
scheme is done the rigid rigidity of it we have to see what we get back and if there is no paperwork
2:10:47
to link into herbert's lack and his treatment it's unlikely that we will overcome the threshold
2:10:55
Well, I mean, that's the terrifying thing, isn't it? In that, you know, we wouldn't even know about her
2:11:00
if he hadn't passed away in February of last year, because as Louise said, his pride wouldn't have allowed him
2:11:06
to come forward and describe his own plight. So we will never know how many people may be in exactly the same..
2:11:12
And now that we're in the political regime that we are in, in this country
2:11:17
it's taken people even more into their shells because they're frightened that if they do come forward
2:11:22
they will be threatened with deportation and they're terrified of what will happen to them
2:11:27
if they're going to put themselves out there to be seen. They're very frightened of what to do
2:11:32
So this is another thing we have to deal with, with the political regime that we're in right now
2:11:38
And we know 66 people who have died while awaiting conversation. What we'll never know is how many people either didn't know they were entitled to it
2:11:46
or who passed away having not actually got around to coming forward
2:11:50
That right But the key is that we it doesn matter how bad it is or how difficult it will be the key is that we just keep fighting and we never give up to find justice for the herbits of this world
2:12:01
So legal funding for claimants, a lowering of the burden of proof for compensation, simplification of that process, the compensation process and a streamlining of it
2:12:10
You can find out more about the work that justice for Windrush, which is the number four, are doing and continue to do
2:12:18
But for you, Louise, I mean, A, you have very little expectation of receiving any financial compensation
2:12:25
and neither are you, I don't think, particularly bothered by it. Tell me what it is that you do want
2:12:30
I just want acknowledgement that they've done wrong by my dad and all the other people that they've done wrong by
2:12:36
Hold your hands up, own up. You've done wrong. You've actually done, and I don't know if it's intentionally that you've done this, but, yeah, you've done it
2:12:44
It's done. The damage is done. So that his legacy is more than that suit it's more than that much more than that
2:12:51
Did he have a good relationship with your son fantastic relationship with my son
2:12:56
Absolutely fantastic relationship. That's the only time you saw my dad smile is when he's with my son. Really? Yeah, absolutely
2:13:02
It's the only time you saw emotion Well, then he left much more than just that suitcase didn't he
2:13:09
Louise, thank you. Thank you. You know, we're always here to help on this. Thank you James
2:13:14
to increase even on days like today even on days slightly overtaken by the news but um
2:13:19
this stuff's important god bless you both thank you very much it's 12 45 james o'brien on lbc
2:13:26
love it as promised here is what volodymyr zelensky had to say this morning following
2:13:30
the resignation of kia starmer kia thank you for all our cooperation your support and the
2:13:36
joint decisions that have helped make our europe and our protection of life stronger
2:13:40
the united kingdom has been is and will remain among the world's leaders here in ukraine we
2:13:45
deeply value britain and every meeting and every conversation we have had has always been filled
2:13:50
with real substance thank you for always being in touch always engaged and always striving to do
2:13:56
what is needed and what will truly help i wish the united kingdom and all british people every
2:14:01
success as well as realization of your national goals we have confidence in britain kia you are
2:14:07
always a welcome guest in ukraine it was a rare moment of what felt like national unity admittedly
2:14:12
it was before we found out that one of nigel farage's closest friends and protégés was
2:14:16
secretly taking money from a kremlin stooge in return for polluting our political discourse and
2:14:21
you'd have to sort of i suppose just forget for a moment that the politician nigel farage admires
2:14:26
most in the world is is vladimir putin because the response to ukraine um and and the illegal
2:14:32
invasion thereof felt like a real moment didn't it of national unity even Boris Johnson managed to
2:14:38
get it right again as long as you can forget that he put the son of a KGB spy in the House of Lords
2:14:42
and disappeared um on his way back from a NATO summit to attend a party being thrown by both the
2:14:48
father and the son um but hey ho these are small details perhaps we should just cling to the
2:14:53
semblance of unity that um that emerged in the wake of that hideous invasion and forget all the
2:14:59
people who sometimes seem to be closer to Russian interests than British ones who now operate within
2:15:04
British politics. It is 10 minutes to one. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I've got a
2:15:10
missed information for you, but it's a good one as well, because it tallies directly with something
2:15:16
we actually did last week. So it's both a missed information, missed information. Thank you, Emily
2:15:22
and an unhinged headline. Unhinged headline. The woke quango that wants to cull
2:15:29
almost every wild pony on Dartmoor and won't even speak to the people
2:15:33
fighting to save their lives is the headline in the Daily Mail today, which makes you wonder why they didn't do
2:15:38
what I suggested you do last week and just go to Natural England's website
2:15:42
at gov.uk and read about what they have to say on the subject of this absolute non-story
2:15:47
Guy Shrubsall, the environmental campaigner and best-selling author, explained to us in glorious technicolour
2:15:54
why this is a load of old nonsense. But, unfortunately, the memo didn't get to the editorial floor
2:15:59
of the Daily Mail, so I'll do it for them. This is from Natural England
2:16:03
On the 16th of June, as in six days ago, recent media coverage has suggested that Natural England
2:16:10
has recommended a cull of ponies on Dartmoor. This is categorically not true
2:16:14
nor is it true to suggest any scheme has been designed with the aim of achieving this
2:16:18
I don't know, is that clear enough for you? Is that equivocal? Unequivocal enough for you
2:16:25
Not, apparently, for the Daily Mail who have managed to turn it into a classic example of a missed information
2:16:32
Missed information. I've got another one for you, but it might have to wait until tomorrow because Jane is in Camden
2:16:37
Jane, which of the many brilliant questions I've asked today would you most like to answer
2:16:43
Afternoon, James. It's a pleasure to speak to you again. Likewise. Can I just start thanking Louise and her father, her late father Herbert, for his contribution to this country
2:16:53
And I think, you know, all of us living in the UK would not be or would not have the infrastructure and the facilities that we have were it not for the Windrush community coming over here
2:17:05
So I really do want to extend my thanks and I hope that they are recognised
2:17:11
Of course. Yeah, I just want to put that out there. I'm hoping not to be too greedy
2:17:16
but I'm guessing in response to your questions I would like to have a go at both of them really
2:17:21
but quickly so I think the issues with Starmer what has gone wrong
2:17:29
I mean personally I am disappointed that he has resigned and it does sit on easy with me
2:17:36
the way that we now have a politics where you can just shove one person out
2:17:41
and you just bring another person in And I do like Andy Burnham, but I do think here the optics just isn't great
2:17:48
This looks at you know Labour Party wanting to set their own mess How do you mean Well okay so why are they bringing
2:17:59
Burnham in? Well, they're bringing Burnham in because they know if Keir stays in
2:18:03
or they feel that if Keir stays in potentially they're going to get slaughtered at the next
2:18:07
general election. So, I think that's where I'm coming from. You know, are they doing this
2:18:13
for the good of the country or are they doing this for the good of the party? It can be both. I don't want to quibble unduly, but it can be both
2:18:19
I mean, if keeping the far right out of power is a top priority
2:18:25
that's for the good of the country, and it can only really be achieved by having a change of leader would be the argument, wouldn't it
2:18:31
And Burnham demonstrated in Makerfield that he has, at this point in the political cycle, he has a bit of a gift
2:18:39
for delivering the undeliverable. I think that's a fair counter, but I still think
2:18:45
optically people will look at this and they will you know they won't look at it like that they will
2:18:50
probably look at this is a burnham campaign and this is you know for for the Labour Party but that
2:18:55
that isn't the sole reason why you know I guess I've just thrown that point in um I think for
2:19:02
where it's gone wrong with the flip-flopping it's it's about across the detail and it's very
2:19:07
difficult for him top to be across that detail all of the time but I think that he has struggled with
2:19:13
that and in a sense when you are prime minister the buck stops with you and that then comes down
2:19:18
to how you kind of you know control the things around you and i suppose to some some respect he
2:19:23
has to go manage um you know he can't control everything all of the time but i think that's
2:19:29
where some of the flip-flopping has happened where perhaps he hasn't been across the detail as much as
2:19:34
he should have been that was the thing i thought we could rely on him for personally i thought that
2:19:38
you know he's not going to be able to do the stardust and the tap dancing and what have you
2:19:42
but he will be absolutely, in the way that you expect a lawyer to be
2:19:46
he will be absolutely across the detail. And then because he has such a good grasp of detail
2:19:51
when he moves, he will move decisively and he will move permanently
2:19:56
And sadly, I mean, I think you're being too kind. None of those things turned out to be true
2:20:01
I think some of it, you do have to be superhuman. And I think that that lack of detail and that lack of micromanaging
2:20:10
to an extent has led to the poor decision-making. I mean, look at Mandelson, for heaven's sakes
2:20:15
I mean, you know, all the rest of us could see that a mile off
2:20:19
Don't do it. But yet, he still did it. Well, actually, again, to be that guy
2:20:24
I mean, all of the people who were the loudest retrospective critics of that appointment thought it was a stroke
2:20:29
of flipping diplomatic genius at the time, didn't they? I mean, you may have seen through it
2:20:34
I don't think I can give myself that particular accolade. I mean, everyone from Michael Gove to Nigel Farage were talking about what a brilliant appointment it was to put Mandelson in the embassy in Washington
2:20:47
But hey-ho, how that world turns. So, I mean, that is as negative as you are minded to be this morning, which is perfectly reasonable, but just that he didn't really have a great grasp of the detail
2:20:59
Yeah, I think so. Not a great grasp of the detail, which has led to poor decision-making
2:21:03
But in terms of Burnham coming in, I think he has a very, very short time and stuff around
2:21:09
And if he doesn't, they will have him out. So I think that, you know, the weight is going to be on his shoulders
2:21:17
And all of these issues Starmer was trying to deal with are still going to be there for Burnham
2:21:23
So I have no idea how to do it. Except immigration, oddly. Except immigration
2:21:28
It's communications around that. Yeah, I know. I mean, how many people are aware of the fact that we could, by the time of the next general election, actually have more people leaving the country than coming in
2:21:40
You will actually have reduced immigration so completely that net migration moves into the negative
2:21:45
I've got time to squeeze in one more call, the last of the day, and it's going to be Stu in Southampton
2:21:50
Stu, what's it going to be? good afternoon james it's going to be uh no particular fan of starmer labour supporter
2:21:58
wanted him to stay did you dan jarvis is the man the steely-eyed messenger of death
2:22:06
yeah dan jarvis he's my guy i've got to stop saying that because it could actually become a
2:22:12
bit of a millstone around his neck couldn't i don't know if the sort of average average voter
2:22:16
wants a steely-eyed messenger of death to be Prime Minister, but I do. Let's talk about the average voter
2:22:22
We are in the fight of our lives here. Let's not, you know, mince our words
2:22:27
We are in such dangerous times, and I just feel a figurehead ex-military
2:22:34
ticks all the boxes, family guy, really good local MP, has had hardships, but he's done tours of duty
2:22:43
You know, he's that, you know. He's the real deal. I mean, we'll see, won't we
2:22:50
I mean, it's probably not... I imagine it will be clear by the end of the week
2:22:54
whether or not anybody else is going to have a tilt at it. But they've got until July the 9th to make their minds up
2:22:59
I think I'd like to see some sort of battle. But as you remind us, only against a really meaningful opposition
2:23:05
I think in some ways the worst thing that could happen would be for a complete and an entity to come forward
2:23:09
and say that they're doing it just because they think it's important to have a contest
2:23:13
But I'm not sure a complete and an entity could pick up 81 nominations, which I think is the figure that you need
2:23:20
It is coming up to 12.59. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app
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2:23:29
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2:23:33
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2:23:37
So do download the LBC app. It's free. You get it from your app store now. Coming up at four on LBC
2:23:42
Ben Kentish is in for Tom Swarbrick. But now it's time for Sheila Fogarty
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