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'The tanks and guns will park on Andy Burnham's lawn' | James O’Brien - The Whole Show
Jun 20, 2026
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 19th of June, 2026. 00:00 – Should Starmer stay or should he go? 51:19 - Burnham wins Makerfield by-election - Does Burnham give you hope and what does he need to do? - Natasha Clark, LBC's Political Editor 01:42:44 – Who do you want to be Prime Minister? 02:22:14 – Full Disclosure: Cressida Cowell Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jamesobrien #politics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
it's three oh i'm sorry we we interrupt this program with an urgent public safety
0:07
appeal um a little man called nigel has gone missing in the makerfield area of england
0:14
his mummy is very worried about him apparently he is wearing an outfit
0:18
it's described here as he's dressed like a city dweller's idea of what a country gentleman looks
0:24
like and if you do have any information about the whereabouts of
0:28
Nigel, whose mummy is very worried about him then the number you need is 0345
0:33
6060 973 so just to repeat a little man called Nigel, if you see
0:38
him wandering around Makerfield looking lost, his mummy's very worried about him and
0:44
we wonder if you could help reunite him with his very concerned mummy and that's
0:50
the end of the public safety announcement Four minutes after ten is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
0:57
where the result in Makerfield last night is not only a disaster for Keir Starmer
1:01
but also, of course, as is often the case these days for most political journalists
1:05
not all, but for most political journalists who've spent weeks talking about knife edges
1:09
and Farage's vote being cannibalised by the other fellow who is called Reclaim or Restore
1:14
or I forget precisely which, it's so hard to keep up, but I will get across it, I promise
1:19
It's unprofessional of me not to. But it's the scale of... I've got some breaking news for you
1:27
Keir Starmer has said he will stand in any leadership contest should one be triggered after Andy Burnham's return to Westminster
1:34
adding he will not walk away. I suppose we should all be grateful to the Prime Minister
1:38
for giving us our first phone-in topic of the day. And a really interesting question, actually
1:44
because I was going to go with what do you want to see happen next, but now you actually know what is going to happen next
1:50
The only bit we don't know, the known unknown, is, of course, how many other hats get tossed into that ring
1:56
including possibly, but I'm told not by any stretch of the imagination, certainly, or even particularly likely at the moment
2:03
but never say never, the steely-eyed messenger of death himself, Dan Jarvis
2:07
That was his nickname when he was in the paratroopers. And you know how dewy-eyed I can get
2:11
about people who were prepared to risk their life in the service of this country
2:16
I mean, people who genuinely were prepared to risk their life in the service of this country
2:20
not sort of plumbers from Makerfield who were glorified cadets. I would love to see Dan Jarvis have a crack at the big job
2:29
but it may be a little bit early. Reflux, I think, the other parties
2:34
No, no, sorry, regurgitate. It'll come to me in a minute. I'll get it in a second
2:40
And we're a bit where we were at the beginning of the week, except the significant dimension of yesterday's result
2:48
last night's result. And I don't know if you were listening to Lewis Goodall overnight, but goodness me, I don't know whether he was on the Pro Plus, but he did an absolutely fantastic job of steering us through the expected and unexpected dimensions of yesterday's results
3:03
And the, I think, unexpected or unpredictable. Did you have a feeling? I bottled making any meaningful predictions. I mean, I wasn't allowed to make any yesterday
3:12
If I'd even mentioned the by-election, I would have got into huge trouble. And do you know what I would have said
3:16
do you want to know what I would have said yesterday if I was allowed to say anything
3:20
I would have said that a party that is opposed to immigration
3:24
is about to do well in a constituency that doesn't have any
3:28
I think that the white ethnic British part English part of that constituency
3:34
it's 90 something percent I think it might be as much as 97
3:38
and do you know what happened on the occasion the only occasion of
3:44
an Ofcom complaint against me, little old me, an Ofcom complaint against me actually being upheld
3:51
I said, live on the radio, that an anti-immigration party was about to win a by-election in a constituency
3:56
that didn't have any immigrants. I was talking about Clacton, amazingly enough
4:01
when Douglas Carswell, do you remember him? When he was running for UKIP
4:06
which is one of the parties that Nigel Farage used to own, run, work for, I don't know, lead, it's hard to keep track
4:13
so that's a fascinating dimension isn't it? the idea that he does best
4:19
I guess the racists always do best in the areas where there isn't any immigration
4:24
or where there's next to no immigration because the rest of us know what it's like the rest of us can see what it's like
4:30
and are amazingly not terrified or terrorised by it it's why of course the fascists around the world
4:36
have such a huge problem with London and our thrice elected mayor
4:41
Sadiq Khan Picking up an award in Singapore just last week, which you probably won't have read about in your morning rag
4:49
Picking up or heard about from your favourite right-wing presenters. Picking up an award in Singapore last week for..
4:54
We're just kind of leading a brilliant city, really. And it's the size of the..
5:00
Sorry, I'm getting distracted. Getting the size of this victory. And that is a game-changer from Keir Starmer's point of view
5:11
because it makes the case for change close to irresistible. If you think of an opinion poll as an indication of what a constituency is going to do
5:22
and then think of a by-election as an indication of where a country sits
5:27
it's far from exact science. And yet the need, the desire for change from both Labour supporters and Labour's critics
5:38
or Labour's doubters is pretty close to irresistible. I'm stealing that from James
5:45
James, thank you for that. I'm stealing it from you. Apparently, Nigel Farage is starting a new party now
5:51
It's called Recluse. It's the size of the result that makes Keir Starmer's position
5:59
I think, close to indefensible. It makes his position... I think it's untenable
6:10
I'm glad that we began this week by reflecting on the fact that the worst thing probably about this whole scenario
6:16
is that Starmer is a man more sinned against than sinning. It's as if he's found himself in a hole so deep he can't get out of it
6:23
but he didn't dig much of it himself. He definitely dug some of it himself, don't get me wrong
6:28
I think in many areas he has been profoundly disappointing, and I appreciate how upsetting some people find that
6:35
and I know how much this is going to upset you as well. A little bit of the defence of Keir Starmer
6:40
reminds me of the defence of Jeremy Corbyn. It's as if you're ignoring the evidence of your own eyes and ears
6:45
and just knotting that scarf ever tighter around your neck but only a small bit of that
6:50
I don't think you're anywhere near as deluded because I honestly do think that Starmer has fallen so far into that hole
6:59
because he was so bad at refilling it. Do you know what I mean
7:03
It was as if he was taken... Someone compared him this morning to a Labrador
7:08
that is startled by its own flatulence, and they suggested that sometimes Keir Starmer has that air
7:14
of somebody who is constantly being taken by surprise by events that he is both responsible for
7:20
and should have been able to completely predict. And I do think for the record Listen let me tell you I think it over for Keir Starmer And I think it perfectly possible that a year from now we look back and curse ourselves for having accelerated and facilitated the change of personnel
7:37
I would say the chances of that happening are 48-52. Actually, no, I can't weld myself to the infernal statistic forevermore
7:45
I think the chances of that happening are relatively low. Let's say about 30%
7:49
But it's a very real prospect that we will look back in a couple of years or perhaps as the next general election approaches and we will say to ourselves, why on earth didn't we stick with Starmer
8:00
Why didn't we leave him on the bridge as he struggled with the wheel and tried to turn that oil tanker around
8:07
Because it was beginning to shift. And a large part of the reason why the country didn't think it was beginning to shift was because of the effort put into maligning him
8:16
And now guess what's going to happen? Spoiler alert, all of those guns turn on Andy Burnham
8:22
All of those tanks are parked on Andy Burnham's lawn, which is why I've got a sort of sneaking soft spot for Dan Jarvis
8:30
because I think even the kind of moral bankrupts on the right of the British media
8:35
will struggle to land punches on a paratrooper in quite the same way that they will on Andy Burnham
8:44
So he is now absolutely public enemy number one. The headlines will probably start tomorrow
8:51
Give it till Sunday before the political editor of the Mail on Sunday
8:55
Glenn Owen, takes dictation from Nigel Farage about things that aren't true and sticks it on the front page of the paper
9:01
Daily Express will probably be describing Andy Burnham as the Antichrist by Tea Time today
9:07
He will now be on the receiving end of the kind of abuse and vitriol
9:11
that only people like Keir Starmer, Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn would be able to explain to him
9:18
It is going to be horrible and it is going to be constant
9:22
and it is going to be effective. It is going to chip away from today onwards
9:27
at the momentum that Andy Burnham currently enjoys and the sense of optimism that he has somehow managed to engender
9:39
Which brings us to the phone-in. Normally on a day like today, we'd confine some of the early contributions to people who were in the constituency
9:46
I can see that Chris in Wigan is already on the board and fits that category completely
9:50
So what happened in Makerfield is a question that you can only really answer if you were or are in Makerfield
9:56
0345 6060 973. But the question I want you to answer, and I want you to jump in quite early on this
10:06
Keith got a bit excited yesterday after suggesting that we take a hydration break at quarter past
10:12
and stop riding roughshod over all the requirements and traditions of this programme
10:16
by generally ignoring the times at which I'm supposed to shut up for a few minutes
10:20
I've got four minutes of Keir Starmer, though, Keith. Should we play that now, or should we play it
10:24
when we come back from the hydration break? Well, is anyone... I mean, come on, you know, this isn't a one-man show
10:32
This is collegiate. Eleanor, what do you think? Do we play it now or do we play it now
10:36
So, Keith, sorry, mate, you're going to have to put the hydration break back in the fridge for a moment. Here's Keir Starmer talking just a few moments ago
10:42
After you've heard him speak, I want you to ring me and tell me whether or not you think he should fight on
10:46
as he's about to tell you he is going to, or whether he should actually now roll over and clear the decks
10:54
for either the coronation of Andy Burnham or a leadership battle involving Andy Burnham
10:58
What do you want Keir Starmer to do? And crucially, because you know how this programme works, why
11:03
Here he is just a few moments ago. Let me start by saying this was a very good victory in the by-election
11:10
and I've sent my congratulations to Andy Burnham and I repeat them here
11:15
And actually my thanks to all of our activists and members who fought so hard over the last few weeks
11:20
in what turned out to be a real battle of values, Labour values
11:25
against divisive reform values and a very divisive candidate. So that is a really, really good outcome
11:33
I think it's further evidence, actually, if you look at it in the context of other by-elections
11:38
that the tide is turning on reform, that they can't now win by-elections
11:43
They've reached probably the peak of their support, and it's going down
11:47
So very good. Congratulations to Andy Burnham. But actually, tide is turning on reform as well
11:51
So this is really important in that respect. My question was about whether you phoned him
11:57
and whether you still plan to take part in the imminent leadership contest, because today we're seeing MPs who were loyal to you now saying your time is up
12:08
Well, I haven't spoken to Andy directly yet, but I will. I have sent my congratulations to him, so we're very clear about that
12:16
And it is a really important victory that he's got there. In relation to what happens next, obviously, we had a mandate two years ago to carry out change
12:26
And we've done incredible things. Two years ago, people said to me, it's not possible to stabilise the economy and invest in your public services and bring down weightiness
12:35
You're going to have to choose one or the other. We've done both. Two years ago, people said to me, it's not possible to get migration down from the level that the Tories left it at, which was nearly a million
12:44
We've brought it down to a fifth of that number. Two years ago, people said it's not possible to get a much closer, better relationship with the EU, given what's going on
12:53
We've achieved all that. So a huge amount has been achieved. There's more to do, and that's what I'm focusing on
13:00
What I was elected to do, which is to serve my country. You seem to be talking about your legacy, Prime Minister
13:06
The vast majority of ministers and backbenchers and special advisors I speak to say in private
13:13
they think you're finished. Is it time to set out a timetable today
13:17
I think it's really important to put the achievements that we've put already achieved into context
13:22
because when I talk about stabilising the economy, when I talk about bringing waiting lists down and getting migration done
13:30
I'm talking about projects like this. I'm talking about people who need houses, businesses that need to thrive
13:36
That's what drives me every day. I was elected here to serve my country with a mandate that we secured
13:42
at a general election two years ago, a very considerable mandate for change
13:46
We are figuring out that change. A lot of what we've achieved, people told me, wouldn't be possible
13:52
If we'd sat here doing this interview at the general election 2024, and you'd put to me in two years' time, the economy will be stabilised
14:00
In two years' time, waiting lists will be coming down. In two years' time, migration will be back under control
14:05
In two years' time, we'd have had the EU in the relationship we've got
14:10
And in two years' time, reform would be on the run and the tide would be turning. I would have said that would be a very good place to be, but that is the place we are in
14:17
So to be clear, I don't understand. Are you going to be involved in a leadership contest or not
14:22
Well, there isn't a leadership contest. But when there is, it's a little primalist, isn't it? There isn't one at the moment. But as I've said on many, many occasions, I don't think that's a good thing for the country to plunge us into chaos
14:33
I would also add that now that Andy has won, which is really important, really good, he's a huge asset to us
14:40
then now will inevitably be a Manchester mayoralty by-election starting straight away
14:45
So it's important that we pull together for that. But if there is a contest, just to be clear with you
14:50
then yes, I will run, I will stand, and I said repeatedly I not going to walk away from that I don believe it I a mess Can I get and this is up to you and you can tell me that I can you in charge Can I have one free pass on not being able to make my mind up
15:06
Because I listen to that, he always sounds at his best when he's got his back against the wall
15:10
And the things that he listed there, I know that the fall in immigration is going to be a disaster for the country in the long term
15:16
but it's what the country wants. That's just accounting, sadly. It's not an opinion
15:20
and the battle has been lost. The racists won that. And lots of people who aren't racist
15:25
ended up believing what the racists told them. You might not like that ysis, but I'm sticking to it
15:32
And then he points out that, you know, moving ever closer to the European Union
15:37
he didn't even mention the workers' rights bill or the renters' rights. All the things that he's done
15:41
will look quite impressive in retrospect. And yet, five minutes ago, I was adamant
15:48
that he should probably spare us all the nightmare of a battle
15:54
and just clear the path for Andy Burnham into Downing Street. So I promise I'm not going to make a habit of this, all right
16:00
But I honestly haven't got a clue what to think. I've been saying for about a month that Starmer hanging on
16:06
even when Burnham wins, is underpriced. Then I saw the scale of Burnham's victory in Makerfield
16:11
where obviously if the support for him had been confined to people who were supporters of Keir Starmer
16:17
he would have lost. Something very unique, you can't have gradations of unique
16:22
something specific and unique has happened in that by-election because of what Burnham represents
16:29
I think if you don't agree with that, then you're deluded. But should Starmer fight on
16:35
He won a general election with a massive majority about two years ago
16:39
Oh, I'm really sorry. And I can't keep going on about how sorry I am
16:43
that I am blowing in the wind like a weathervane on this guy and on this story and on this question
16:49
So the more certain you are, the more welcome you will be. Although, don't feel that you're not allowed to join me
16:54
in blowing in the wind or swinging like a pendulum. Should Starmer..
17:00
Let's just dedicate the rest of this hour to the clash. Yeah? Should he stay or should he go
17:09
03456060973. And as always, if your mind has changed as a consequence of what happened yesterday
17:14
your position might be more interesting than positions that have been set in stone
17:21
since time immemorial. So now we know. A massive vote of confidence in Andy Burnham
17:26
a huge injection of optimism and a huge securing of momentum, potentially to carry him all the way to Downing Street
17:34
But if Keir Starmer stands in his way, would you cheer Starmer or would you urge him to move
17:40
It's 10.21. James O'Brien on LBC. Three minutes after ten is the time
17:46
Well, here's a turn up for the books, having spent much of the last few months calling him a coward
17:50
and reflecting on the fact that he refuses to appear on this programme, despite me having accepted a challenge from him 12 years ago
17:59
And never regretting it for a moment, Nigel Farage was called in to share his thoughts
18:03
on what happened in Makerfield yesterday. That's so childish, isn't it
18:13
Can we actually hear a serious clip of him talking about why he has only released a pre-recorded clip of himself
18:20
and won't actually be exposing himself to any interviews at all, even with people who'll just ask him what his favourite biscuits are
18:30
Nigel Farage there, live from his bunker. No-one knows where he is
18:34
And reports, of course, that he is going to rename his party Recluse
18:38
are yet to be confirmed or denied. but it is to Keir Starmer that we turn our attention this morning
18:44
and a simple question of whether or not Andy Burnham put the writing on the wall last night
18:49
We'll be hearing live from Andy Burnham I think shortly after half past ten but until then Chris is in Wigan just round the corner from where Andy Burnham is expected to speak
18:57
Chris what would you like to say? I think it's inevitable that he's going to become the next Prime Minister of this country
19:03
and I think you put it very eloquently where over the last two years
19:09
Starmer hasn't really made any kind of... He's not screamed and shouted what things have..
19:16
What Labour has done. They've not got the message out and they've not actually said all the good
19:21
that Labour has done over the last two years. It's taken till this morning for him to stand up and say
19:29
I am the right person to lead this party. It's not the only time he's done it. But he only sounds steely when his back is against the wall
19:37
and he's usually, and this is why it's hard to sustain sympathy
19:41
or never mind support, he's usually backed himself against the wall. Absolutely
19:47
I mean, the man looks like he's carting headlights 90% of the time
19:51
No, he does. He doesn't project strong leadership. Whereas, I think with Andy
20:00
he is doubted and screamed about what he's been doing in Manchester
20:05
for the last umpteen years. he has greened it from the rooftops and got that message out
20:10
So the product may not be massively different, but we just need a more effective salesman
20:18
I don't think... I think he's having somebody who's going to be able to have the stones to stand up and say what he believes
20:24
and actually get that message out. It's not fair that, you know, because Starmer does do that
20:30
It just doesn't land. That's what I mean by being a more effective salesman
20:34
or a more effective spokesperson. Starmer threw absolutely no fault of his own
20:41
They're like two cogs that don't mesh because some of the policies are magnificent
20:46
and the 2020 hindsight legacy chroniclers will be in no doubt at all
20:52
about some of the very significant things that he's done. But most people are completely either unaware of it
20:59
or unmoved by it. I'm haunted by a call we took on Monday, I think
21:02
from a lad in Penrith who was adamant that everyone he ever speaks to hates Starmer
21:08
because he did what they wanted. But originally he didn't. He then changed his mind and delivered exactly what they wanted
21:14
so they all hold him in contempt. That's such a mad position to hold. And yet there's some truth in it
21:19
It's as if he's dug... He's in a hole so deep that he can't get out of it
21:24
but he hasn't actually dug the hole himself particularly. I don't think he helped himself
21:31
by being so hesitant to either make decisions on people who made mistakes in the party
21:40
by not asking them to step down quick enough. But then other people say he's been far too hard
21:48
and far too quick to remove the whip. I don't think he has
21:52
I don't think he's been quick enough to act on anything. I think he was exactly what we needed
21:57
after the last set of politicians that led this country, He's someone a little bit calmer, a little bit more relaxed and a little bit bland
22:06
The anti-chaos candidate, as it were. And he hasn't really proved to be the one thing he needed to be
22:12
which was strong on process. You can be as dull as you like, but be clear what it is that you do and deliver it
22:18
To be strong on process. And he hasn't done that. Do you... I mean, you're probably made of stronger stuff
22:24
But if he replaces Keir Starmer and it won happen tomorrow actually I should review that It won happen until the replacement is complete And they start attacking Burnham
22:37
We could be sitting here by Christmas looking at personal approval ratings that have gone through the floor
22:41
because, sadly, as we've learnt in the last ten years, the British public is easily persuaded
22:48
of things that are not true. I've sat on Facebook for the last three, four weeks
22:54
and watch this election pan out and the attacks on him personally
22:59
I don't think he could have got any more vitriol. I don't think there could have been any more hatred
23:04
put in those attacks. And he still came out on top. What
23:09
With a large percentage. And you're watching local Facebook groups, are you, up there? Yeah
23:13
In Wigan, that's crucial to stress. And I guess the other element of it is
23:17
you see, these are the things that make me still, and I think I will probably be dragged out of the studio
23:22
kicking and screaming, describing Keir Starmer as a man more sinned against than sinning
23:27
But politics is a beauty contest, and it is even a question of what sticks, isn't it
23:35
So you've got two people there, all having similar amounts of ordure thrown at them
23:40
Starmer's quite sticky, Chris. Yeah, unfortunately, and he just doesn't seem to have anything in him
23:48
to be able to bat it off with. That's not... Yeah. Yeah, and that might be a..
23:52
He's like he's going to front of the wickets with no pads on. I think that's a nice way of putting it
23:55
I was at the Oval yesterday, although I'm taking no responsibility at all for what happened to England
24:00
The cricket ogy works. It's not his fault an awful lot of what has happened to him
24:06
but it is obviously the case that the country, or at least those who don't want to see a fascist government
24:12
have two priorities at the moment if they are to resist that prospect
24:17
One is that you need a better salesman for the Labour Party, and two is that you need a leader who isn't almost a magnet for
24:25
I mean, the stuff they say about him. I don't know if there's a single person who this time last week
24:29
believed that the arson case was about Rent Boys, who has now woken up, given their head a wobble
24:34
and said, how on earth did I end up being such a wombat? I don't think that those people are driving much of the discourse
24:43
not just on Elon Musk's platform, but beyond. And I guess the gamble now is that Andy Burnham
24:49
And when they start telling lies about him, they will be harder for the idiots to believe
24:54
And I'm not apologising for using the word idiots. If you thought that Keir Starmer's home was attacked by people recruited by Russians
25:02
because they were secretly rent boys that he hadn't paid, then you're an idiot
25:07
You're not just an idiot. You're an absolute idiot. You shouldn't be allowed near scissors, let alone polling booths
25:14
Absolutely breathtaking how widespread that conviction was. You can see it if you dip a toe into all forms of social media
25:22
People even put it on comments under my clips, on reels and Facebook and things
25:28
Just imagine how fundamentally stupid you would have to be to look at a story about an arson attack on a prime minister's old house
25:37
and believe a lie that it was to do with... I think if I lived to be 112, I'd pray to every god there is
25:45
that I never encounter stupidity on that scale from my fellow countrymen and women
25:50
But that's not what we're talking about. Dominic Ellis is here with your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
25:56
We're expecting Andy Burnham to give a speech in about ten minutes, give or take, so we'll keep chatting together until then
26:03
If you're just tuning in, you join us on an odd morning. It's a morning where I'm hoping you'll be able to help me form a strong opinion
26:09
because at the moment I just haven't got one. Do you think I'm just tired? I saw the result from last night and I felt a brief burst of hope and joy
26:18
because I thought, well, that's so resounding that things are going to have to change sooner rather than later
26:23
There's no way that that by-election was fought within the parameters of Makerfield
26:28
It was a by-election of national significance. Obviously it was because it is a precursor to Andy Burnham
26:36
launching a leadership bid against Keir Starmer and it's pretty hard to avoid the conclusion
26:42
that that is what the people want, the people of Makerfield. Even Labour supporters will have wanted that to happen
26:50
And then I heard Keir Starmer speak this morning and reflected on what he's done
26:54
and I'm back where I was on Monday, thinking that he is a man more sinned against than sinning
26:59
But all I've got at the moment is this ogy. He is in a hole so deep he will never get out of it
27:04
and it doesn't matter that he didn't do much of the digging himself, he can still never get out of it so here's Andy Burnham and then the phone-in we were going to have
27:13
this morning at 10 o'clock was whether or not you want a coronation or a leadership battle but now
27:17
we know we're getting a leadership battle because Starmer has said he's definitely going to stand in
27:21
one which means that anybody's on the sidelines wondering about where to throw their hat a sort
27:25
of Wes Streeting even perhaps an Angela Rayner almost certainly an Al Carnes hopefully a Dan
27:30
Jarvis, all of those people could be reviewing their options as we speak. I
27:36
usually mention John Major and Toothache at this point in proceedings and if you're very
27:40
lucky, I'll explain to you why before 11 o'clock today. So I am
27:45
a very opinionated radio presenter without an opinion this morning and it's a bit like
27:51
not having any clothes on. It's like an anxiety dream. It's a profoundly
27:55
uncomfortable position for me. I've interviewed both of them. In fact, we've
27:59
got a wonderful archive of interviews now on Full Disclosure with all of the names I've just
28:03
mentioned except Al Carnes and Dan Jarvis. You want to find out more about Wes Streeting
28:07
Head over to Full Disclosure. If you want to find out more about Angela Rayner, head over to Full Disclosure
28:11
If you want to find out more about Ed Miliband who's still there, head over to Full Disclosure. If you want to find out more
28:17
about Andy Burnham, and probably you would quite like to find out more about
28:21
Andy Burnham, then head over to Full Disclosure where we sit down for an hour with all of those people
28:25
and explore their backstory, their life before they became names that you know, and here I am
28:31
A famously opinionated radio presenter with no real opinion, except an effective and accurate ogy
28:39
involving a big hole and a prime minister. I don't fully understand why
28:43
but you can tell me why you do or don't want Keir Starmer to clear off
28:49
Jean's in Broadstairs. Jean, what would you like to say? Right, I would like Keir Starmer to carry on
28:55
I am a supporter of him. I think he's a decent, honest man. What I would like is for him and Andy to make an agreement
29:03
like a bit of a Blair Brown. And they agree. He can be brought in now as deputy leader, replace Lammy
29:12
And they then can fight the greater Manchester majority unified because it's important, really important
29:23
that reform don't get that. So we don't need an infighting chaos blooming in the Labour Party
29:30
And then fight all the bots and the misinformation and the foreign influence
29:37
and all the stuff that's going on together. And with Starmer, who's got a real credibility in foreign policy, you know, foreign, Yes
29:48
He can really focus and be solidly there with Andy Burnham doing the rousing calls and obviously getting his own sort of certain people
29:59
but getting the shouting loud and clear on the home front of all what's going on
30:06
which is so good. So much good stuff has happened, and it really, really... Annoying
30:14
So annoying. But by the time of the next general election, who will be in charge
30:19
Well, I think that would be... The agreement would be that Keir would announce
30:24
that I will be stepping down, like Blair did. But he hasn't. It's too late for your ysis
30:31
He's said, I'm going to fight. I know you're telling me what you would prefer, but he has said..
30:36
If there is a leadership... Now, what I want this agreement over the weekend to happen
30:41
that there isn't a leadership contest. They come out united, and he has reshuffled here
30:47
and says, I'm pleased to say Andy Burnham comes in as my deputy
30:53
They don't have the leadership. Deputy Prime Minister. Just so people are confused
30:57
Lammy is Deputy Prime Minister. I think Lucy Powell is Deputy Leader of the Labour Party. No, not you. You're clear on that
31:02
Deputy Prime Minister, yeah. A bit more like then. So it would be the Blair-Brown agreement on a handover
31:09
and it would be the Thatcher-Heseltine arrangement on the deputyship, sort of trying to..
31:15
Because she wasn't preparing to hand over power, but she was acknowledging the momentum behind Michael Heseltine
31:23
if I remember correctly, which I may not. Or was it under John Major? I probably shouldn't have brought Michael Heseltine into it
31:29
No, I can't. I can't. I mean, I lived through it, but I can't remember it
31:33
Yeah, and I don't think that's going to happen. I think yesterday's news was that Burnham had let it be known
31:40
that he was not interested in a big job in the Cabinet, which Starmer was talking about on Wednesday
31:46
and that as soon as he, at the very first opportunity, he would set that leadership battle ball rolling
31:52
And I think that will probably... Oh, I didn't hear that. Yeah, that's what I'm here for. Don't worry, Gene
31:56
That's probably the point at which the gloss starts falling off Burnham for some people
32:01
because it would be, why couldn't you just be a bit more patient? Why couldn't you do it on terms that are best for the party
32:07
And then when there is a battle, can you see any circumstances in which Andy Burnham doesn't win
32:14
I mean, I've got to say, on a personal level, I will still vote for Keir
32:20
You know, I'm a Labour member and I'll vote for Keir. I don't know
32:24
I suppose you're right. I suppose. But I just think it's a real, real
32:30
shame because I think as a double act they actually could really reignite
32:37
the Labour Party as a real strong double act, foreign and home and get across
32:43
Labour have done so much good. It's like Steve Reid came on this morning. He was
32:49
doing a policy and wanted to put forward about gazumping. Yeah, it's a great
32:53
policy. But what do they talk about? Which I get it. We are thrilled and also, can I just get this in
32:59
I'm thrilled that reform and restore votes together Labour still won by 6,000. Yeah, that was a bit
33:07
of a red herring, wasn't it? Yeah. Let's go for, we've actually really
33:11
really beaten the far right. No, hang on a minute. I think we can
33:15
all agree that Nigel Farage's vote got cannibalised by two-tier policing and anti-white racism
33:21
oh and family voting I think oh no hang on it's a 97
33:26
white constituency he never accuses white people of that kind of behaviour does he
33:30
no it's just a bloody actually hang on oh crikey Gene here's a bit of a
33:34
moment for you I've actually I've actually got him I've actually got him on the line
33:38
here he is lovely to hear from you mate have a cracking weekend Gene you take care
33:44
you've put your point brilliantly and unfortunately and this is not the sole
33:48
purpose of this morning's conversation you haven't firmed up my opinion at all
33:51
I'm still a mess and I'm going to keep apologising for it because this is not what you
33:55
tune in for, you tune in for dare I suggest somewhat arrogantly
33:59
for me to explain stuff and then set out my own stall and invite you
34:04
to either join it or start lobbing balls at my coconuts Jean did neither, she
34:09
makes a very powerful case for the kind of calm transition which I think I would quite like to
34:16
see but as we've just discussed together I don't think we will so we cross it off the list. Alan is in Kimberley. Alan, what would you like to say
34:23
Hi, good morning, James. Good to speak to you again. Likewise. So, I think he should go, and the reason I think he should go is I think it's as good
34:31
as it's going to get for him. I think, unfortunately, yes, okay, he has made mistakes, but I think
34:39
in fairness to him, the barrage he's received over the last couple of years, I think, at
34:45
times has just been horrendous. I mean, at the end of the day, you know, he's still
34:49
a human being, he's still a father, he's still a husband, you know, he's still a
34:53
person. But I think unfortunately now, same to your colleague, I think the state of our politics
34:59
now, sadly it's more about the personality rather than the policy. And I think unfortunately
35:07
now we are in that battleground where I think if there was a general
35:11
election next year, the Conservatives are so far in the wilderness they're going to come nowhere near
35:17
Lib Dems might make little gains. Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Unless we start drilling for oil in 650 constituencies
35:24
In which case, she's absolutely golden. Seismic. Seismic. We'll all be bathing in 50-pound notes
35:32
because money will just come flooding in. So the Conservatives are so far into the wilderness now
35:37
they're going to come nowhere near. Lib Dems might make little gains here or there
35:42
I really do think, unfortunately, now the battle is going to be between Labour and reform, I think
35:47
that is going to be the big battle that will happen in the next general election
35:52
and Farage makes my skin crawl, he really really really does, but
35:57
the one thing you can't take away from that man is the 5 million quid
36:03
he was given secretly by Christopher Harbourn, what's the other thing? It's the one thing he
36:12
seems to be able to do is he seems to be able to engage and i think unfortunately with kia starma
36:18
it doesn't matter how well he tries to articulate his argument how you know i mean like this morning
36:25
he's you know he's not wrong in what he's saying the immigration figures are coming down the economy
36:30
is bit by bit starting to stabilize you know there is a little you know there's little spurts
36:36
of growth where things are starting to get better, but I just don't
36:40
think he's got the personality to really convey that message. And I don't know
36:46
that Andy Burnham has, but I know, but we know that Keir Starmer hasn't, so
36:50
you roll the dice. Yeah, I think Andy, I mean, from what
36:54
I've seen of him and read of him and what have you, I think, I don't know, maybe
36:58
it's the northern thing, maybe he's got that ability to reach communities up north
37:04
that maybe Keir Starmer won. I said it a while ago, I think it matters I think a northern accent matters now I don't think it should
37:09
but I think you're talking about optics or metrics or yes the two words over in
37:13
then a salesmanship and stickiness salesman I probably need to explain the
37:17
second one salesmanship is about the the the communication that you have and
37:21
that's what you're talking about plausibility authenticity you can fake that you golden and then stickiness which is this bizarre ability Keir Starmer has to be the opposite of Teflon Everything sticks to him including this nonsense about rent boys
37:36
which, you know... Oh, I mean, the whole story was... If you wound the clock back 20 years ago
37:41
if that story ever remotely came close to a headline, people would have looked at it straight away
37:46
and just gone, what an absolute load of nonsense. But unfortunately, the social media world that we live in now... Post-Brexit
37:54
Exactly. people see those little snippets and they'll take him as gospel
37:58
and they'll think, oh, well, it must be true. And they don't, it's the critical ysis that's missing
38:03
I think, unfortunate stories like that. But I think, I think for Starmer, this
38:08
the recovery he's helped to make is as good as it's going to get for him
38:12
I think if he holds on, he's probably going to run the risk
38:16
of more infighting, more squabbles, more battles between Streeton and Burnham and himself
38:24
and it's all going to get very... Yeah, I mean, I think and I hope that you're right
38:29
because you would have probably thought that the big majority of the general election
38:34
would have put to bed a lot of the conversations that have recently and subsequently emerged
38:39
Keir Starmer, I beg your pardon, Andy Burnham just making his way to a podium in that constituency
38:44
where we expect him to deliver a speech imminently. So we will cross immediately to that
38:50
But you would have thought a general election result like the one Keir Starmer secured
38:53
would have silenced all those voices. And then you would hope that a victory like the one Andy Burnham
38:58
seems set to secure in any forthcoming leadership battle would also silence the kind of voices
39:04
and the kind of inter-Nissan warfare that you describe. But we've learned that it ain't necessarily so, as they say
39:10
And here he is. Here is Andy Burnham. Thank you all so much
39:15
The first thank you I've got to do is to the people of this wonderful area
39:21
who've looked after us so well. Stubbshire Cross Community Club, everybody. And how about Ashton Town FC
39:31
I did score two down here the other night. I thought I'd better mention that
39:35
They've hosted us as well. We're going to miss Galloway's, aren't we
39:40
Some of you are anyway, so thanks to Galloway's. I could keep going on. But the thing is, the people here
39:47
obviously have put up with a lot of inconvenience over the last five weeks
39:51
but they've done it with incredible patience and good humour because that's how people here are
39:57
That's the character of the people and the place, and it really came through in the by-election
40:04
So just huge thanks from us all to the people of all the proud places of the Makerfield constituency
40:13
Really, everything that you're about came through, and we all owe you a huge, huge debt of thanks
40:20
I want to thank as well I think you've just heard from them you know it's always the candidate likes to think
40:26
that they win a campaign but it's never the case it's always the people who are really
40:31
calling the shots and I've got to kind of say today that this campaign
40:36
was won by a band of strong northern power women I wouldn't mess with them
40:41
and I suggest that you don't either but Lou Annalise honestly you've
40:48
been immense I could go through everybody. Grace, I'm going to shout you out as well
40:52
You've been absolutely brilliant. There's too many more to mention. But honestly, what a campaign they've led. And I'm so, so grateful to them
41:03
You will all know if you go back to May, this part of the world, people here, issued quite a clear call for change
41:14
In fact, I would say it was more an instruction that things had to change
41:19
And somebody right here behind me understood how serious that call was
41:26
And I'm talking about Josh Simon. So it's something that I want to say, Josh, to you today
41:35
Such was the power of what people said in early May. You realise that this wasn't and couldn't be business as usual
41:43
It needed a response. It needed a profound response. And you did something incredibly selfless in stepping forward, working with me to see how we did respond to what people said
42:00
It is a significant sacrifice that you, Leah, who is somewhere, I think, over there, wherever, wherever you're there, Leah, and the family made
42:13
But I know you did it for all of the right, all of the right reasons
42:17
And I think it's important this morning for me to put those reasons on the record and to thank you both, your family, publicly for what you did
42:27
because it does now open up the space for the real change that the people of this constituency deserve
42:34
Thank you, Josh. Thank you, Lea. So what is that change
42:47
I did talk about the need to change Labour in this campaign
42:51
And we've got to now take this moment to answer the challenges that have been laid down
43:00
I did describe it last night as a last chance to change
43:04
And I think that's how people here kind of saw it when I was talking to them on the doorsteps
43:09
And they said, well, Andy, maybe we can give you our support this time
43:13
But you know it's not a blank check. It's not ongoing. You have to respond to what people here are saying
43:20
You have to do something to make life more affordable, to put more money in people's pockets, to give people more breathing space again so that they can have a better life
43:32
That's what people were saying. And we must respond to that. We need an economy that works for everybody, not a few in far off places from here, but an economy that works for people right here
43:47
We do need to bring down water bills, energy bills, rail fares, just as we've brought down bus fares in Greater Manchester to make life more affordable for people
44:03
We do need an end to trickle down economics, which didn't trickle down very much at all to places like this
44:12
We want to see a new drive of re-industrialisation across the north of England and indeed the rest of the country
44:19
And big change in Whitehall if that is to happen. And I'm talking about public procurement
44:25
It's about time we started backing British business and British industry so that we can re-industrialise places like this
44:35
and yes, let's change the education system so that young people growing
44:39
up here have clear paths into that new industry. No more an education system
44:44
dominated by the university route, but an education system that offers a path for everybody
44:50
academic and technical, in equal balance That what we need if we are to change this And when I say change to public procurement as a result of using the power of it get more work placements for people a guarantee of a work placement for every 16 to
45:07
18 year old who wants one the guarantee of an apprenticeship these are the kind of changes that
45:12
we need if we are to give hope to young people growing up in this part of the world and yet a
45:19
changed too from the Home Office. I heard on so many doorsteps people's concerns about the unfairness
45:26
of the immigration system, that cut price approach to procurement that means areas like this can end
45:33
up like HMO Britain. It's not fair that they think that they can just operate like that and not hear
45:39
the call of people here, the decent people here, who always will do the right thing, the compassionate
45:45
thing but not when it's unfair in terms of the way places like this are treated these are the
45:51
calls that we've got to hear and this is the change that we've got to bring and I say it again
45:57
it is our last chance to change but we're going to take it aren't we we are going to take that
46:02
opportunity and we are going to lay out a new path for Britain the one thing the best thing that we
46:09
can say about last night is that there was a risk, if you like, that we would carry on seeing Britain
46:17
and the politics of our country go down a path towards greater darkness and division and ending
46:24
up somewhere like the United States of America, where people don't talk to each other in the
46:30
street if they vote different ways or in their workplace. We will not let that happen here. We
46:36
will bring people back together. I said last night, I will be a member of parliament for everybody
46:44
however they voted. I will work on a place first, not a party first basis, respecting how people
46:51
voted. I know people who normally vote for the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats, the Greens
46:56
perhaps voted reform in May. I know they gave me their votes to give me that last chance to do
47:03
something and i respect them for doing that and i will always then work in the way that that shows
47:09
how much i value what they uh what they did and that's the kind of change we need to a change in
47:15
our politics to make it work again uh for people you know i did say it last night and i mean it
47:23
the word maker field in the future must be known as a byword for the change that came to british
47:30
politics. This is the moment. We've been on a path for 40 years that simply hasn't worked
47:35
for people and places in this part of the world. And this now is the change moment. We have an
47:42
opportunity to turn the tide, to make the country feel like it's working again, to make people see
47:49
that politics can make a positive difference, to make people feel hope again. That is the main
47:57
thing I think we need in this country right now for people to feel a sense of hope that there is
48:03
something better to work towards on the horizon. This election result has opened up the possibility
48:10
that we can now move forward together towards that future and that's what I'm going to do
48:17
I will work relentlessly to make what the people have voted for here happen and we will do that
48:24
together, won't we? We will take the energy of this campaign and we will bring it forward
48:32
into changing British politics for the better and to make this part of the world, if you like
48:40
the test, the make-a-feel test at the heart of British politics. When policies come forward
48:45
if they don't work for people here, for the places of this constituency, if they don't lift people up
48:52
then they shouldn't happen at all. We've not had a country one on that basis before
48:56
Places like this have often been an afterthought. Westminster has looked past the communities of this constituency
49:02
Well, no more. That changes today. I'm just going to finish by thanking you all again
49:15
for thanking our friends in the media who've given incredible coverage to our wonderful part of the world
49:24
We've allowed the characters of this part of the world. I'm thinking of the Question Time audience and all those who really
49:30
it all really, really shone through. But I'm going to come back to really what this is all about, the people
49:37
The wonderful thing about this by-election, and obviously it came about in very challenging circumstances
49:44
But the wonderful thing about this by-election is for the first time in our lifetimes
49:50
it put power where it should be, in the hands of people here
49:55
They were the ones who had that power and they have used it and they have told us what they want
50:00
Now we will deliver it. Thank you very much, everybody. Andy Burnham there speaking live from Edge Green Street, the home of Ashton Town Football Club
50:10
I think we can all agree that it's wonderful to see the Northwest Counties League Division One North
50:15
getting their well-deserved moment in the spotlight. We will be catching up with our political editor, Natasha Clark, if she's awake
50:23
She has been up all night and remains in Ashton in Makerfield
50:27
and will be able to talk us through some of the ramifications of last night
50:32
and indeed some of the events. And she may have found Nigel Farage, who is currently missing
50:37
he has gone AWOL just as he did after the Carefilly election
50:41
to the Welsh Senate but I'm sure he'll turn up eventually probably with a pre-recorded message
50:46
and possibly even an interview in which he's quizzed mercilessly about his favourite biscuits
50:51
and childhood socks it is coming up to 11 o'clock you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
50:58
hope Joanna sorry hope Andy give me hope Andy seems to be the abiding message of that speech
51:05
But do you know what I'd like to ask you next? I'm carrying on with the question that's on the board already
51:11
but let's talk about the difference between him and Starmer. James O'Brien on LBC
51:18
It's after 11. Now, listen, I know we're having a little bit of fun with sound effects
51:22
and fake public safety announcements, but we should pause to reflect on just how extraordinary and outrageous it is
51:28
that a man whose party is still leading the national opinion polls refuses to talk to journalists
51:34
in the aftermath of an incredibly important by-election that his party was, when it was called, expected to win
51:41
That is cowardice on a scale that you rarely see in front-line politics
51:45
And I would cautiously suggest to my colleagues in the broadcast media that until Nigel Farage exposes himself to interviews
51:51
that don't involve being asked about his favourite biscuits or which toe he wants tickled first
51:56
then we should all refuse to play his pre-recorded messages. You look what happens in the United States of America
52:02
you see what happens when the media doesn't work together to serve the public. And if all the man can do is release pre-recorded messages
52:08
when I've spent most of my adult life not being able to shut him up
52:12
then it is both pathetic and dangerous. And I would suggest, and of course
52:17
this isn't even going to be heeded in my own radio station, but it's important to get the truth out there
52:23
Don play the recorded messages while he refuses to speak to the media and I say go as far as to suggest that any people who he is prepared to speak to at the moment should wear that willingness as a badge of immense dishonour
52:36
But here we are. Maybe I need to eat my words because Natasha Clarke is there and is Nigel Farage
52:42
Is Nigel Farage here? I don't believe so, James. Have you seen him? I haven't found him yet. I've seen your call out, though, for information
52:48
Yes. I've got no information on the whereabouts of him. He was due, of course, to attend the Makerfield count overnight
52:55
if indeed his candidate Robert Kenyon did well. But we saw absolutely hide nor hair of Mr Farage yesterday
53:02
The word on the street was that he had travelled back from Makerfield
53:06
where he was campaigning yesterday, back from him since. So he's gone into hiding
53:12
The phone line there with embarrassing news for Nigel Farage just went down for a moment
53:18
Probably it's been hacked by the Russians. How big is this, Natasha
53:21
And I think we can safely say that it isn't just the win that matters. It's the size. It's the scale of the win
53:28
Yeah, of course it is, James. This was a resounding win for Andy Burnham overnight
53:32
And everybody was saying just a few hours beforehand, this is going to be close
53:36
Reform are going to do really well. But actually, in the end, nowhere near the restore vote plus the reform vote
53:42
Andy Burnham way ahead of that. And he's now got a 9,000 majority, which has increased the majority that Josh Simons had in 2024
53:50
just a couple of years ago. So a resounding victory for Andy Burnham
53:54
And so he can now go to Westminster, to Labour MPs, and say, I can be the man who can defeat Nigel Farage
54:01
And I think that was really what he wants us to take away from that message that you just heard in the last few minutes
54:07
Essentially, that he is saying to Labour MPs, I can offer you that hope again
54:11
I can offer you that opportunity. We don't have to hand Nigel Farage the keys to Downing Street
54:17
And if he wants to act, then we've got to act now. This coming weekend is going to be crucial for those Labour MPs, James, because many of those are still sitting on their hands
54:26
They're not calling for the prime minister to go. And you've, of course, heard from Keir Starmer this morning, who is essentially saying, I'm going to fight if there is a leadership challenge
54:34
Team Burnham have repeatedly told me that they do not want to challenge the prime minister
54:38
They're not going to do so over the weekend. They can't, of course, until Andy Burnham gets into number 10, sorry, gets down to Westminster
54:46
Freudian slip there, but many people, of course, are hoping that he will get into No. 10 Downing Street without a fight
54:52
They want a coronation. The question is going to be what Keir Starmer does and says
54:57
over the next few days, and if not, I think it's going to be cabinet resignations
55:01
and that is going to be coming, James, I think next week, if indeed nothing moves over the weekend
55:06
So cabinet resignations to force a prime ministerial resignation. You can envision circumstances in which he reviews
55:12
what he said already this morning, that he will fight in a leadership battle. You think that that could be a holding position rather than a conclusive one
55:21
Yeah, definitely, James. I think that's where we're heading. I think Keir Starmer, from what we've heard this morning, it sounds like he's digging in
55:26
He has been saying for weeks that he will fight a leadership challenge and has made it known through his allies that he would like to fight
55:33
So I do imagine that there's going to be a bit of stalemate, a bit of who's going to fire first
55:39
Team Burnham are insistent, however, they do not want to be the one to pull the trigger on this
55:44
They do not want to be the one to fire the starting gun
55:47
Obviously, that's because of what happens within the Labour Party. Sometimes the person who wills the knife does not wear the crown
55:55
and they are very, very well aware of that. So I think Team Burnham are hoping that Keir Starmer can, quote
56:01
smell the coffee, as one source put it to me, and wake up and realise that he's not going to be able to win the next election
56:07
and actually that Andy Burnham has just proven that he can beat reform with a resounding win
56:12
That will be the argument that he will be making to Labour MPs over the weekend
56:16
But we may see a total stalemate where effectively Keir Starmer is holding on to power
56:22
Andy Burnham is calling on for him to go and calling for that next step of change that you just heard from in his speech
56:28
But actually nothing happens. So we could be up for a stalemate. What happens to break that stalemate? Well, there's two scenarios I'm seeing or I'm hearing at the moment
56:36
One is cabinet resignations. There's been lots and lots and lots of chatter about Ed Miliband over the last few weeks
56:42
He has been up campaigning here in Makefield. He is close to Andy Burnham
56:45
I know for a fact that he has been on the phone to people here at this campaign HQ throughout the campaign
56:52
He is keen to know what is going on. And there are rumours that Andy Burnham may offer him a big job in his government
56:58
If indeed he does get to number 10, will Ed Miliband humiliate the prime minister by walking out of cabinet along with others
57:07
Potentially, obviously, you heard from Lisa Nandy last night on our Lewis Goodall overnight programme
57:11
She said she would not be walking away, but there will be others having those conversations over the weekend to see whether they can essentially leave the cabinet in order to try to force Keir Starmer to stand down
57:22
We saw what happened with Boris Johnson when all of those cabinet ministers resigned, and that eventually led to him resigning
57:28
The second scenario, James, is a stalking horse candidate. I'm hearing the name Al Karns be bandied around
57:34
I'm hearing other names be bandied around by Team Burnham as a potential to someone to start and pull the trigger
57:40
Once the trigger is pulled, you can't put that GD back in the bottle. So I think those are the two scenarios that could play out
57:46
But I think we're up for a weekend of waiting, watching, waiting and seeing
57:50
And I think the magic number is 81. You'd need 81 supportive MPs to pull that metaphorical trigger
57:57
Yes, that's right. I don't think we will need you again today because I'm worried that you haven't had any sleep at all
58:05
Am I sounding delirious, James? No, you're sounding magical, as always. but I'm just thinking I can't foresee any developments
58:11
that would demand your presence here. So do feel free to get some kip
58:16
and then Eleanor will wake you up very gently in the event that something happens that we do feel needs your input
58:22
Is that OK? That's very kind. Thank you, James. Well, thank you. Excerling work from you and indeed from Lewis Goodall overnight on LBC
58:28
Nice to know Lisa Nandy's still around. I was beginning to worry for her. I thought she might have disappeared down the same well
58:33
that Nigel Farage has apparently fallen into. But no, the Cultural Secretary is alive and well
58:37
and appeared on LBC overnight. Speaking of appearing on, if not LBC
58:42
then certainly one of my platforms, then the full disclosure interview that I did with Andy Burnham
58:47
I think back in 2022, is now available, or I mean, it's always been available on the Global Player
58:55
but it's been bumped up, if you like. It's been brought up from the vault
58:59
so it's very, very easy to access. We've dusted it off, given it a fresh coat of paint
59:05
And it's interesting, because, of course, what Full Disclosure does is try to tell you the story of somebody
59:10
before their name became a name you know. And Andy Burnham very much in that category
59:16
They're all there, as I mentioned earlier. I forgot to mention David Lammy. He's there as well. A few Tories in there as well, but before they all went mad
59:24
So, you know, I think Dominic Grieve has done it. Amber Rudd has done it
59:28
Even John Bercow has done, Full Disclosure, although I'm not sure you can call him a Tory anymore
59:32
because he was actually up in Makerfield wearing a Vote Andy badge. I'll say that again for fans of how mad British politics has become in recent years
59:41
John Bercow was up in Makerfield wearing a Vote Andy badge. Time now is 12 minutes after 11
59:49
I'm going to squeeze in a quick call from Alan Imprestwich, if I can
59:53
and then I think I'll run you through the four ways in which Starmer could be ousted from Downing Street
1:00:00
Now that we've heard from Andy Burnham, I think we're, well actually, I think Alan is about to kick this one off
1:00:04
The difference between them. It doesn't matter whether it's fair or not
1:00:08
but the words I've written down repeatedly on my doodle pad this morning are salesmanship and stickiness
1:00:14
next to a picture of two unmeshed cogs. I may explain the second bit for people who don't listen to this programme as regularly as they should
1:00:23
after we've heard from Alan who's impressed with it. And Alan, I should add that you are a Labour councillor
1:00:27
so presumably champagne corks popping in Prestwich last night. There was champagne corks popping in Bury
1:00:34
because there was another local election. Of course there was. And we battered reform
1:00:40
And so, yes, they are beatable, and Andy showed that. I think the difference between Andy and Keir
1:00:46
I think you've just said it, Andy is a brilliant communicator. Is he brilliant
1:00:50
I mean, he might be better than Keir Starmer, but is he? No, he's very, very good. Is he? I mean, yeah, he's very good
1:00:55
I mean, if people aren't listening to LBC on Thursday, he does what's called a hot seat on the BBC local radio station
1:01:04
Yeah, I'm not quite sure how I feel about you advertising the opposition in the middle of my programme, pal
1:01:08
I'm sorry. Flipping heck. I mean, is there a catch-up option they can use
1:01:12
Can they listen on catch-up? Of course they can. Yeah, all right. Well, let's not be sending people over there to the..
1:01:17
Well, I mean, I say opposition. I've got one and a half million viewers
1:01:21
Listeners, they've probably got about 50,000. but hey-ho, every ear counts, Alan
1:01:26
Carry on. Tell me what he's like on that phone-in without telling me where it is or who conducts it
1:01:31
On the rival phone-in, he is excellent. He has a way about dealing with people
1:01:36
and, you know, he can do no wrong up here. And, you know, the thing is
1:01:41
he has this way of communicating people of actually making them feel special
1:01:45
Right. And, you know... I didn't see much evidence of that when he was in Westminster
1:01:50
I've got to be honest with you. well you know I mean look he's up here
1:01:54
I've served on committees with him he's very good the bit about British jobs
1:02:01
well we've actually done it in Greater Manchester the buses we buy are either made
1:02:05
in Northern Ireland or made in Scotland and we've commissioned bridges that are made in Nottingham
1:02:10
it's part of local procurement but unfortunately if I was Keir I hope Keir can walk away
1:02:19
with his head off because I think it, sadly, doesn't deserve it. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that
1:02:25
It doesn't deserve it. He's a very, very decent man. But it has to happen
1:02:30
Yeah, and I think there's been too many mistakes made, and whoever is in charge of Labour's communications has been a disaster
1:02:39
I mean, we have done a lot of good stuff, James, a really lot of good stuff
1:02:43
and it just doesn't touch with the people out there. And that's the problem. I mean, that's why I've written down salesmanship and stickiness
1:02:49
So, I mean, salesmanship is a little unfair a word to use because it speaks of a certain slickness, doesn't it
1:02:55
You can be a brilliant salesman and be selling snake oil or poison and still sadly manage to get a lot of the public on side
1:03:03
But let's work on the presumption that the product is a positive thing
1:03:08
Andy Burnham is clearly, due to the skills you described, going to do a better job of selling it
1:03:12
Is he susceptible to stickiness? I can't remember a politician to whom often ludicrous criticism and abuse has stuck
1:03:22
We have sat here, and we do this for a living, Eleanor and I have been sitting here now for the best part of a year
1:03:27
marvelling at the approval ratings, or rather the disapproval ratings of Keir Starmer
1:03:31
Got a little glimpse, perhaps earlier this week, of why. It can't all be down to social media, but if there is enough people out there prepared to believe the nonsense about him not paying rent boys
1:03:42
then they're probably going to believe anything, up to and including two-tier policing, anti-white racism
1:03:47
But none of that explains the absolute depth of his disapproval ratings
1:03:51
They've gone lower than Liz Truss. And that might be a tragic sort of mark of cane
1:03:58
that is peculiar to Keir Starmer. Are we supremely confident that Andy Burnham in this context
1:04:04
is less sticky than Starmer? Because when the attacks begin, they will be vicious
1:04:09
Well, they probably began about 30 seconds ago and they will be unrelenting
1:04:15
because that's what the right-wing press does. You know, and that's what they do
1:04:22
And they've done it with all Labour politicians. They did it with a demonised Blair
1:04:26
They did it with Gordon. And he has to be prepared for that
1:04:30
But the thing is, what frustrates me sometimes, Keir doesn't come out fighting
1:04:37
You know, if it was me, every week I would tell Kemme Badenock and the recluse
1:04:44
about the cost of Brexit. You know, the cost of Brexit. And that's the only, you know
1:04:50
that's the thing, James, that really annoys me about the Labour Party
1:04:55
How we say we don't want to open old wounds about... Brexit is killing this country financially
1:05:01
That's why people are really cheesed off. Because there's no money, because the economy's down by about 300 billion a year
1:05:08
of which 100 billion will be taxes. There's your old stone. There's your defence spending
1:05:13
There's your extra money for the NHS. Our Labour Party, we hide from it instead of coming out and attacking people
1:05:19
Makerfield was a huge leave area as well. So, you know, it's a bit of a tightrope to walk
1:05:25
But unfortunately, everyone knows what's at the end of the rainbow, to mix my metaphors
1:05:29
It has to happen eventually. So why not get it over and done with from a position of strength
1:05:34
While I've got you, what's going on in Bury? because they only dropped one seat up there in May
1:05:39
while the rest of the country was hemorrhaging support left, right and centre. And this victory that you rightly referred to from last night for Councillor Wormsley
1:05:47
that means that reform will not be able to form a majority up there
1:05:52
So something in Bury is bucking national trends. Do we know what it is
1:05:57
Yeah, we could. Well, is that it? No, look, there's a lot of experienced campaigners in the Bury Labour Party
1:06:05
We've been around a long time. We know where our vote is. We know how to campaign
1:06:10
And a lot of our councillors, like Sandra Wamsley, who was elected in 2010
1:06:16
people know Sandra. They know the work she does. You know, people see her
1:06:21
And that counts. And it's the casework, James. It is that when you're helping people with problems
1:06:29
And, you know, and that's what we're good at in Bury, under the leadership of Eamon O'Brien
1:06:33
who's now head of the LGA. You know, people have said, what a good job Eamon O'Brien's doing
1:06:38
and now I think he's leading the LGA. And so, yeah, you know, if people want to come up to Bury
1:06:43
which is just north of Manchester, because some of us do speak like me with a Manc accent
1:06:47
You know, well, the other thing with a Manc accent I think we'll shortly see returning is
1:06:54
thank God for this, Angela Rayner, please come back. But, you know, what we are, we know how to campaign
1:07:02
and we campaign all year round, James. It's not just election time
1:07:07
We are campaigning all year round. And that's something that we haven't seen
1:07:11
at a national level in two years, really. Is that just even that sense
1:07:16
Just to ask you this, I know I'm a bit late for the break, but in terms of that calculation
1:07:22
that appears to have backfired horribly, you know because when he says he brought immigration down a lot he right And I don think we argue about whether or not the country has become a place where that is widely perceived as a positive
1:07:37
Does that tally with your experiences on the doorstep? If you say immigration has come down by 400,000, people go..
1:07:45
They don't believe it. They don't believe it because, again, our comms in the National Labour Party is awful
1:07:52
It really is, isn't it? Yeah, it's awful. You know, immigration's come down
1:07:57
Waiting lists have come down. The economy, despite Brexit, is going okay
1:08:03
Imagine what it is if we were open to a market of 350 million
1:08:08
And the good stuff that we've done, you know, I mean, no-fault evictions, trade union rights
1:08:15
I think all this doesn't... How... I mean, this is where I get a little bit sceptical
1:08:22
Because, I mean, how much of that is the fault of the communications department
1:08:26
and how much of that is our bent media? Well, I think it's a bit of both
1:08:31
But hang on, we're in government, James. So they should be able to do something
1:08:36
And they haven't even come off Twitter where they're making absolutely no impact whatsoever
1:08:40
Although one senior government figure, one department, has decided to stop using that hellhole
1:08:46
as giving it a patina of, if you like, respectability by using it for government announcements
1:08:53
Alan, I always enjoy talking to you, but more perhaps today than ever
1:08:57
And congratulations on the result that you secured in Moorside, I think it was
1:09:02
up in Bury, 21 minutes after 11 is the time. I like this conversation
1:09:08
I like elements of it. But I also like these two things that have dropped out of our contemplations this morning
1:09:14
namely salesmanship and stickiness. And whether or not as the dust settles
1:09:20
and as you begin to, your own position begins to crystallise, whether Andy Burnham is giving you hope
1:09:28
0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3 because you know what I always say about hope, I can't bear it
1:09:34
It's the despair I can deal with, to paraphrase clockwise. It's the hope that gets you, but I've got a horrible feeling
1:09:41
that that thing, either it's wind or there is an early burgeoning of hope deep in my belly
1:09:48
as a consequence of the conversation that we've had so far. What about you
1:09:52
Is it wind or is it a bubbling, a burbling, an early indication of hope engendered by the new MP for Makerfield
1:10:02
Andy Burnham? It's 11.22. James O'Brien on LBC. So, I mean, hope is not a strategy, is it, as Annie points out in a text
1:10:11
But it is, however, whether you like it or not, it is a message
1:10:18
It is a seductive message. We all like hope, don't we, Joanna
1:10:22
Do I need to explain that? No, I'm not going to. I'm going to leave it hanging
1:10:26
to create an air of mystery that hangs around the programme. Give me hope, Joanna
1:10:32
Cool with a K. What does he need to do? It's really funny
1:10:37
because if I'd asked you this question about Keir Starmer two years ago, you would have said to me
1:10:40
either with a heavy heart or with a racist twang, you would have said to me, he needs to get immigration down
1:10:46
or he needs to stop the boats. Well, Starmer has brought immigration down
1:10:51
and the number of people crossing the Channel in those vessels is massively reduced year on year
1:10:58
The question of what does Burnham need to do... Actually, that's really interesting, isn't it
1:11:03
Starmer's done what he thought he needed to do. I'm going to read you something. Adam in Wargrave's up first, but I've got some phone lines free now
1:11:10
So 03456060973 is the number you need. I think the first question I asked you was a bit vague
1:11:16
but by all means, feel free to answer it. Does Andy Burnham give you hope, Joanna
1:11:21
But the second question, more substantive, what does he need to do? What does he actually need to do
1:11:26
either in terms of policies or in terms of performance, in terms of product or in terms of salesmanship
1:11:33
What does Andy Burnham need to do in the event of becoming leader
1:11:38
So we're going to talk as if that's a given. which it isn't, but this is my show
1:11:42
and I think that's an interesting question. He is talking as if he's on the march, isn't he
1:11:46
The King of the North is heading south. Lock up your daughters
1:11:51
What is the... That's just a figure of speech that you use
1:11:54
when people are marching on your city. It's not a reference to anything else whatsoever
1:11:59
What is the top of the to-do list if Andy Burnham were to replace Keir Starmer
1:12:04
sooner rather than later? What does he need to do? 03456060973 but first let's just run through this
1:12:13
because a few of you are a little unhappy with the idea that Keir Starmer is more sinned against than sinning
1:12:18
a phrase I may be slightly overusing because I love King Lear so much where it comes from
1:12:22
but as No Hostages points out one of my most reliably insightful correspondents
1:12:27
Labour's problems are not primarily the result of hostile media or impossible expectations
1:12:32
they are largely the result of Starmer's own strategy messaging and management
1:12:38
We would start, he suggests, with the Island of Strangers comment. This was hero voter politics in action
1:12:45
tailoring Labour's message to socially conservative swing voters. And instead of winning over the right
1:12:51
he alienated many anti-racists, many liberals, and many ethnic minority voters. And then there was Gaza
1:12:58
Many on the left watched as Starmer defended collective punishment, resisted calls for a ceasefire
1:13:04
and then oversaw the arrest of more than 3,000 Palestine action protesters
1:13:08
That was not damage done by misinformation. It was damage done by his own choices
1:13:14
My commentary now, you have to set against that, the fact that his position has been sufficiently robust
1:13:20
to earn the absolute hatred and public approbation of Benjamin Netanyahu. But no hostages point stands, of course
1:13:28
Then you've got the two-child benefit cap. One of the most effective anti-poverty measures available
1:13:33
was ending it and Starmer chose not to. For many Labour supporters, that signalled fiscal caution
1:13:40
mattering more than reducing child poverty. And then there's Peter Mandelson again
1:13:46
My commentary would remind you that everybody thought that was a great idea
1:13:49
and then suddenly didn't. When voters wanted change, Starmer repeatedly turned to figures associated with the new Labour establishment
1:13:58
To which I have to say, mate, what do you think Andy Burnham is? but anyway the message was not renewal it was restoration and then the pensioners they could
1:14:08
have framed difficult decisions around wealth fairness and taxation instead the message many
1:14:13
people heard was that pensioners were being asked to take a hit the politics of that was disastrous
1:14:17
and then the way he treated people like diane abbott and other left-wing candidates the
1:14:22
centralization of power left many members to conclude that some factions were welcome in labor
1:14:28
while others weren't. That's quite niche, but it is also relevant. And here is the problem
1:14:34
Starmer's goal was to lose some support on the left while gaining more support on the right
1:14:39
That was the theory that Labour has mainly lost support to the Greens, the Liberal Democrats and Independents
1:14:44
not to mention Plaid Cymru and the Scottish Nationalists, while reform as well at the same time has..
1:14:52
You're wrong to say it's kept growing, but it certainly remains ahead that why many critics don see Labour decline as bad luck they see it as a failure of strategy a failure of messaging and a failure of management And those are the things that Starmer remains responsible for He and his ideology have failed utterly It a powerful
1:15:10
of a powerful position that power of and indeed well argued with some caveats that I interjected
1:15:16
and some that I that I didn't interject because most obviously a couple of the big things there
1:15:22
he did reverse on but somehow that made a bad situation worse not better if I'm making a mistake
1:15:29
and I change course that should be better than what would have happened if I'd stayed on course
1:15:33
again the curse of Keir Starmer seems to be that he's doing something unpopular and he changes course
1:15:39
and it doesn't affect his popularity in any way at all except perhaps negatively is that human
1:15:45
nature or is that again peculiar to him is that the stickiness paradigm bad salesmanship and
1:15:51
stickiness. Everybody gets a lot of rubbish thrown at them. Very few people seem
1:15:57
to stick to it quite as much as Keir Starmer does. Anyway
1:16:01
back to the phones. I'll give you the number in case you want to be joining in
1:16:05
0345 6060 973. Here's Dominic Ellis with your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
1:16:11
You sound pretty confident about Starmer going, James. I think he'll stay and I will
1:16:15
donate an extra fiver to the Dogs Trust if he doesn't. Will you put your money where
1:16:19
your mouth is or is it too risky for you asks jonathan in deal i'm not allowed to take bets live on
1:16:25
the radio i don't think and i can't i don't i'm a little bit scared of even sort of doing a little
1:16:29
nudge and a wink here in case ofcom get cross but um if i ever meet you in the wild jonathan
1:16:34
then yeah i'd shake on that i think he's toast i said at the outset there's the 30 to 40 chance
1:16:41
that he isn't but i think he is and i've probably been generous there starmer is not a bad pm says
1:16:45
Thor. I don't know if it's that one or not. Starmer is not a bad PM, however
1:16:49
he is mortally wounded, and if anyone knows about mortally wounded, it's
1:16:53
Thor. He needs to get out of the way. I love you, James, says Bob
1:16:57
in Durham, but the big winner yesterday, well, obviously the Tories, a seismic victory for them
1:17:01
I heard Kemi say so. You're not going to take me seriously
1:17:05
now, but I think that that actually is a significant result. I think the
1:17:11
Conservatives are actually in a strong position, and not just because I think Kemi Baden-Ock is magnificent
1:17:15
and I dream of having a single scintilla of her self-belief because if I did, I'd be Pope
1:17:20
But I'll tell you why shortly. I think we need to take a couple of calls. Let's go back to Bury
1:17:24
All good things come from there. Nick, what would you like to say? All right, James
1:17:28
Hello, mate. Celebrating well chuffed about this. Go on then, tell me why
1:17:34
I'll tell you what he needs to do. Yes. So he alluded to it a little bit in his speech
1:17:39
there's a way of saying bringing more English jobs bringing more facilitating British industry
1:17:49
being better for schools and things. There's a way of saying that without sounding like a far right idiot
1:17:55
There's a way of saying that that brings the nation together that makes you go yes we're not going to depend
1:18:01
on people that are living abroad to build in our industries and have
1:18:05
their say that we're going to bring it we're going to build and we're going to
1:18:09
deliver for the British people and there's a way of saying that that brings every single person
1:18:13
together and he simply needs to capitalise on this. You're describing style rather than substance but
1:18:19
at least in the first instance style matters more than substance. Certainly it gets people's
1:18:25
attention it gives people that um I believe I don't believe that everyone recently have has just
1:18:31
become uh you know completely devoted on immigration or become you know far right you know I believe
1:18:37
that a lot of people that are voting for reform or remask or whatever they're called recluse have
1:18:41
decided to um they're saying that the politics aren't working for us we need someone that's
1:18:49
going to deliver for us as as people we're we're not our wages aren't going as far we're not going
1:18:56
on as many holidays our shopping bills have become ridiculously expensive it's not working
1:19:01
for us and we need change and i believe that he is the hope that people need without without so
1:19:06
So what you've got then, what the calculation is, or what the big hope is, is that he's perceived as a clean skin
1:19:13
Because they all say they're going to improve your life. All of them say that
1:19:16
The Tories have been saying that for 14 years. Recluse say that
1:19:21
Reclaim say that. Restore say that. I don't know. Reflux say that
1:19:26
Regurgitate say that. Revolve. They all say that. And, of course, Labour say that
1:19:30
But I think, quite unfairly, Keir Starmer has somehow been paddled with the idea that he's part of what has gone before
1:19:39
Well, it hasn't worked. It's time we gave someone else a go, which is how they justify putting an absolute idiot in charge of the country
1:19:44
And yet, Andy Burnham, who is clearly not an absolute idiot, or indeed a racist, or a sexist, as the candidate he beat in Makerfield boasted about being a proud sexist
1:19:56
um burnham could be perceived nationally despite having served in labor cabinet despite having run
1:20:04
for the labor leadership twice before he's put enough distance between himself and westminster
1:20:09
to be perceived as a fresh pair of shoes as someone who well we'll give him a go because
1:20:13
all the others have failed he's somehow managed has he do we honestly believe to remold himself
1:20:18
to rebrand himself as an outsider here i think he maybe has actually
1:20:23
yes yes i didn't realize i was still on yeah of course you are yeah you know how long my
1:20:29
interruptions take i do that's true um yes i i think he has i really think he has that's amazing
1:20:35
he's got i think he's got the uh the chusper to um to to to give it to the um to the uh other
1:20:42
parties as well to to bring a lot of um the things that they have done that have brought this country
1:20:47
and to disrepute to the surface. And I think Keir Starmer's very much like
1:20:54
no, no, no, I'm going to rise above it. I'm not going to say it. Sometimes you want someone to fight
1:20:59
Just fight. Just say these things. Brexit has destroyed the country. There are lies being spout by reform every single day
1:21:06
No one's talking about it. Let someone bring this to light. Let people know facts
1:21:10
Let someone be in hope. You can tell I'm very passionate about this
1:21:14
Yeah, and I like that. I mean, not in a patronising way. I think we need more passion and we need more positivity, actually
1:21:21
rather than a political discourse that's been dominated for a long time now
1:21:25
by constant whining and bogus victimhood and victimisation and othering and attacks and racism
1:21:32
And Burnham won't do any of that. I don't know what he'll be like on Gaza, do you
1:21:36
Because I don't know that there's much wiggle room for a British Prime Minister, Labour or Conservative
1:21:42
I don't think there's much wiggle room there, despite Netanyahu having absolutely hemorrhaged goodwill and support for Israel in its current incarnation
1:21:52
Hopefully that's something that a future Prime Minister of Israel will be able to rebuild and indeed restore
1:21:57
But I don't know that Burnham is going to come out with what the left of the party wants to hear
1:22:02
I don't think he can come out with what the left of the party wants to hear
1:22:05
which would essentially be a complete cessation of all diplomatic ties with Benjamin Netanyahu's government
1:22:11
He needs to be careful Very careful with government If he smart if he smart because obviously what happening with Netanyahu and Trump at the moment he just stand back and watch the fireworks because you know I think sparks being lit and we going to see something explode And we follow America stead in condemning Netanyahu government not Israel but Netanyahu government when the time comes because I think that fuse is being let
1:22:38
Yeah, maybe. And as I predicted yesterday, have I got my Mystic Gym production yet, Keith? No, of course I haven't. February 2027, I reckon
1:22:46
As I predicted yesterday, Netanyahu would probably torch the peace agreement that everybody was celebrating yesterday before the day was out
1:22:54
And speaking of an extraordinary image that I should have told you about
1:22:59
actually I need to just double check it's completely for real. I double checked something yesterday was completely for real
1:23:05
because someone sent me a picture of Nigel Ferris drinking a pint in a pub
1:23:09
and that was him celebrating England or supporting the England football team
1:23:16
And I'm such a sweet summer child. When somebody suggested to me that it was exactly the same pub
1:23:22
on exactly the same evening, wearing exactly the same shirt and drinking exactly the same pint
1:23:27
that he was photographed enjoying two years previously at the last Euros, I thought, nah, someone's used AI
1:23:34
someone's done a manipulation, someone's used Photoshop. There's no way Nigel Farage holds his own supporters
1:23:41
in such absolute contempt that he thinks he can post a two-year-old picture to pretend he cares about the football
1:23:48
despite so many of the players being black, which was really upset that Sarah Pochin woman
1:23:52
Oh, I've got to tell you something about her as well. He holds his supporters in such complete contempt
1:23:58
that he can post a two-year-old picture pretending he supports the England football team
1:24:02
and they won't notice. But that is indeed how much he hates his own supporters
1:24:06
because he posted a two-year-old picture. If you didn't know this, it's completely true. He posted a two-year-old picture of himself
1:24:12
drinking a pint in a pub wearing a football shirt in order to pretend that he was supporting England
1:24:16
against Croatia. and there's a little bit of you that goes oh is this some sort of 3D chess
1:24:24
is he doing this because there's only one thing worse than being talked about and that's not being talked about
1:24:29
and it will upset all the right people and he's trying to own the libs
1:24:33
or he's trying to own the lefties and I thought I mean I don't really care if it is because if you're so stupid
1:24:37
and I'm sorry but I am going to be using that word a bit more in the future if you're so stupid that you're now lying to yourself
1:24:43
about not caring that he's a liar oh he's great yeah he really likes the football
1:24:47
he's drinking a pint in a pot The picture's two years old. That's how stupid he thinks you are
1:24:52
that you either won't notice or when someone who cares about you tells you
1:24:57
you won't care. His calculation is always that you won't notice or you won't care about how awful he is
1:25:03
So there he is, even the football. But compared to what that woman did yesterday
1:25:08
Sarah Pochin, Nigel Farage is in the shallow end of outrageous behaviour
1:25:14
Who do you think, Sarah Pochin, the woman who hates seeing brown and black faces
1:25:17
on her television. Who do you think she blames for potential upticks in domestic violence
1:25:26
when sporting events are on the television? So there are measurable upticks in domestic violence
1:25:32
when big sporting events are on the television. It's important to remember
1:25:37
that they are almost always existing cases of abuse worsening during sporting tournaments
1:25:46
So these are wife beaters, scumbags, domestic abusers, or indeed Farage rioters
1:25:52
because 20% of the people that got arrested at the last one subsequently turned out to have been arrested for domestic abuse
1:25:59
Who do you think she blames? So if, God forbid, some poor woman was to be battered by her partner during the World Cup
1:26:08
who do you think Sarah Pochin would blame for that? The person doing the battering or somebody else
1:26:15
have a listen to this and tell me that I'm not going mad
1:26:20
England won the football last night and thank goodness they did because on the occasions that England
1:26:26
lose their football matches the incidences of domestic violence go through the roof
1:26:31
so boys keep winning wow so it's the footballers fault if
1:26:40
if your stepdad beats up your mum next time England lose. It's the footballer's fault
1:26:48
if someone does that. What was the name of that guy who got elected to Parliament
1:26:52
on Nigel Farage's ticket at the last general election? Turned out he was someone that beats up women
1:26:58
James McMurdoch, was it? That's the fella. It's the footballer's fault. Did England lose that night
1:27:04
when James McMurdoch battered his girlfriend and then went on to be elected to Parliament
1:27:09
as part of Nigel Farage's party? Was there a sporting event that night? Because if there was, I think we've misjudged the guy
1:27:14
haven't we? It's not his fault he battered his ex. It was the football team that lost that night
1:27:19
that were the reason why. Sometimes you look at these people and you think, I mean, are they evil
1:27:26
or are they stupid or are they both? And I think in her case
1:27:30
it's very hard to resist the conclusion that it's a big fat both, right? So she doesn't like seeing brown and black
1:27:35
Oh, you don't think... So if a person of colour batters somebody
1:27:44
All right, let's say a woman, let's say a white woman. If a person of colour batters a white woman
1:27:50
then it's about immigration for these people. Somehow every person of colour in the country
1:27:55
is on the hook for what happened to that woman, just as every person of colour in the country
1:28:00
was on the hook for the scumbag that murdered Henry Novak. You remember, it's fresh in your memory
1:28:06
they tried to make it about immigration, despite the fact they tried to make it about racism
1:28:10
Nigel Farage started lying about anti-white racism. Henry Novak's family pleaded with the public not to tell lies or to make it racist or to use it for grounds for division or to riot
1:28:20
And Nigel Farage encouraged people to completely ignore them. He called for pure cold rage
1:28:25
So a white person dies at the hands of a brown person in a crime that had absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity or race
1:28:32
And this lot starts screaming about ethnicity and race. But in the event of a white woman being battered by a white man
1:28:39
it's all the fault of a football team that is... One of my colleagues suggested this morning
1:28:45
it's because the England football team has so many black players in it
1:28:49
If it was a lily-white football team, she wouldn't be suggesting that it's the football team's fault
1:28:54
when someone gets battered by their own partner. Now, that's bonkers, right
1:28:58
There's no earthly way that her brain is that warped. But what other explanation would you come up with
1:29:04
for how somebody could be so obviously... Is it stupid or sinister
1:29:10
It's as if... Because it's not just that you sat there and you've had a thought, like sort of accidentally soiling yourself
1:29:16
and then regretting it and thinking, God, I hope nobody's noticed. It's as if you've accidentally soiled yourself
1:29:21
and then decided to get someone to film it and post it on social media
1:29:26
The logic is so warped. And so here is a story about domestic violence
1:29:31
rising in households where domestic violence already takes place when England lose. It goes up by
1:29:39
about 38%. It goes up by 26% when they win or draw
1:29:43
by the way. Presumably because alcohol has been taken and tempers are high and scumbags batter their
1:29:49
partners. So even if they win, it goes up by 26%. She's too thick
1:29:53
to either do the research on that or understand what the figures truly mean
1:29:58
But it's not the thickness of the position that I marvel at this morning. It's the decision to film it and then post it publicly
1:30:06
Here is me being gross and stupid. Oh, I'll tell you what, grab that phone, will you
1:30:13
Keith, and film me doing it. And then we can stick it on social media. Listen to it again
1:30:18
all right? And tell me whether this is one of, even by the standards of this shower
1:30:22
this is one of the most disgusting things any serving politician has said in recent memory
1:30:27
England won the football last night, and thank goodness they did, because on the occasions that England lose their football matches
1:30:33
the incidences of domestic violence go through the roof. So, boys, keep winning
1:30:39
So when a person of colour commits a crime, it's all down to immigration and all people of colour are responsible for it
1:30:46
But when a domestic abuser commits a crime, presumably she's imagining it happening to people that she cares about
1:30:54
which means it must be white people, because we know how she feels about black and brown people
1:30:58
she can't stand seeing them on the television, let alone worrying about their circumstances or plight
1:31:04
then it's all the fault of the football team, which happens to have a lot of black football players in it
1:31:08
How bizarre. And, of course, the point, if you're minded to defend her
1:31:13
or to pretend to believe that what she has said isn't as disgusting as it sounds
1:31:18
the point is that the incidences, and the University of Lancaster did a study on this
1:31:23
Lancaster did a study on this not long ago. The risk of domestic abuse in homes where it already happens
1:31:30
increases by 26% when England win or draw. So, I mean, it's 38% when they lose, 26% when they win or draw
1:31:39
So even when they win, the domestic abuse goes up. So what you should be doing as a Member of Parliament
1:31:45
is condemning abusers and offering perhaps words of support or advice to victims of it
1:31:54
how to get out of those kind of scenarios. But she's not even doing that. She's saying, let's hope they win
1:31:59
Carry on winning, lads, because then the chance of that woman over there getting battered
1:32:03
only goes up by 26% instead of 38%. I'm Sarah Pochin. I'm so thick, I can't count
1:32:09
James O'Brien on LBC. Let's do the unhinged headline. Keith, time for the unhinged headline
1:32:18
Unhinged headline. That was the unhinged headline, Sting. How do you like this one
1:32:22
The establishment is terrified of Englishness. It will get stronger. Who do you think
1:32:29
If I said it's the second... What's the word I can use
1:32:33
I've overused stupid today. It's the second most ridiculous man put in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson
1:32:40
Who would you go? Let's actually wait and see on this. I see you send in some answers
1:32:44
The second most ridiculous man put in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson
1:32:48
And I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, how can someone in the House of Lords be railing against the establishment, James
1:32:54
To which I would answer, Brexit! Brexit, Brexit, Brexit! Here is someone put in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson
1:33:01
because of their brilliant contribution to the glorious success of Brexit. They're the second worst man put in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson
1:33:08
because of their brilliant contribution to the brilliance of Brexit. I'm going to pause to give you an opportunity to submit
1:33:16
You'll suggest... Yeah, well done. No, Ian, that's the worst person put in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson
1:33:21
for their brilliant contribution to the absolute brilliance that was Brexit. You're all getting it wrong. You're all going for the worst person
1:33:26
Think about it. If it's not Daniel Hannan, the world's wrongest man, then who is it
1:33:33
The second worst man put in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson in recognition of their brilliant contribution to the brilliant Brexit
1:33:39
that we can all agree is brilliant. Who is it? What did you say
1:33:44
No, he's not in the House of Lords, mate. It's Frosty. Frosty the no-man
1:33:50
Frosty the no-mark, David Frost, railing against the establishment because it is terrified of Englishness
1:33:57
Am I part of the establishment for these clowns, do you think? Who is part of the... If you're in the House of Lords
1:34:01
and you're sort of buddies with Boris Johnson and you negotiated Brexit
1:34:05
and you used to run the Scotch Whiskey Association, what is the establishment that you're opposed to
1:34:11
Is it me and Carol again? Is it me and Carol Vorderman? Is that who it is, David
1:34:16
Who is the establishment that is terrified of Englishness? I'm just going to have a little think about Englishness
1:34:21
and see whether or not I get terrified. I'm not, I've got nothing
1:34:27
How can you be terrified of Englishness? You ridiculous man. Absolutely incredible
1:34:32
I don't even know if that's an unhinged headline. Do we need a new category? Do we need an entirely new category
1:34:37
Beyond unhinged headline? What would we call it? Well, obviously we'd call it beyond unhinged headline
1:34:42
But until then, we'll have to make do with this. Well done
1:34:49
I'd say 60-70% of people got that right. And I accept all the apologies from people who suggested it was Daniel Hannan
1:34:54
who is obviously the most ridiculous person that Boris Johnson put in the House of Lords
1:34:59
And he is often to be found writing in the Daily Mail, presumably on the days when Dick Littlejohn has taken time off
1:35:05
to watch more episodes of Camberwick Green in pursuit of insights into why Britain is going to hell in a handcart
1:35:12
Adam is in Wargrave, if he is still there, because that was an unscripted little tangent
1:35:16
Adam, what would you like to say about Andy Byrne? Well, just briefly following on from Sarah Potchin
1:35:21
I think the reason why there's an uptick in domestic violence is because they've not got racist riots to go to
1:35:28
But I'll put that to one side. I know you're being a little bit glib, not glib
1:35:34
but the Venn diagram is terrifying. The number of people on those Farage riots
1:35:38
who have been done both before and after their arrest at those riots
1:35:42
for domestic abuse is staggering, actually. so it is very much their people that she's talking about
1:35:49
Anyway, where were we? Well, coming back for whether there's hope with Andy Burnham
1:35:56
yes, there is, because he won, and yes, there is, because Nigel Farage is now in hiding
1:36:01
which is a great, great aspect of it. Have you seen him? He's not in Berkshire. No, no, no
1:36:05
Because we know he won't be in Clacton, and we know he's not in Makerfield. He could be anywhere else
1:36:10
Could he be in Thailand with the bloke that gave him a secret five million quid, do you think? He could have flown out to Thailand
1:36:14
I don't know, but he dresses like he might live in Berkshire
1:36:18
This is true, this is true. Yeah, yeah, you know, try to join in
1:36:22
because he's a man of the people, you have to remember that, you know. Thank you, I sometimes forget
1:36:27
But going back to what I think that Andy Burnham really needs to do, and perhaps perhaps squares a certain little bit
1:36:33
with your difference of opinion about Keir Starmer, he's just got to communicate with conviction
1:36:41
Because the problem with Keir Starmer is that the times when you noted that he comes across as being convincing
1:36:48
when his backs against the wall or if he's referring to Henry Novak and calling out Nigel Farage
1:36:56
is when he's got the conviction and then it comes across. But the rest of the time he communicates by triangulation
1:37:03
and you always get the feeling that he's always thinking about what he might say
1:37:07
that might affect one portion of the electorate as opposed to the other
1:37:13
And as a result, nobody knows what he believes in. And I think in the end of it, people would much rather have someone stand up and say what they believe in, even if you disagree with him
1:37:22
You can say well he got some principles and you know what he says And this is the real shame as far as Keir Starmer concerned because I do believe he was that person He only came into politics I do believe genuinely
1:37:35
because he thought it was a public service. But I think he's lost that, and that's the problem
1:37:41
There's a strange thing there, isn't there? This idea that you arrive for your first day at work in your dream job
1:37:52
and you realise by lunchtime that you're not very good at it
1:37:57
Yeah. I mean, it's quite poignant when you think of it like that. A life of preparation and an extraordinary victory
1:38:04
I mean, you went through the job selection process and you left corpses in your wake
1:38:10
You were magnificent at every interview. I mean, I don't think he was necessarily that magnificent
1:38:14
but the result that he got was historic. And then he got there and just wasn't very good at it
1:38:20
And he surrounded himself with people who were worse, perhaps, or were the absolute opposite of what he needed
1:38:27
I think the real shame is here, from what his current position is this morning
1:38:32
because he can really, you know, upset his legacy by insisting on fighting on and causing the chaos
1:38:38
The best thing I think he could do is set out a timetable while he's leaving
1:38:42
when he's leaving, give Andy Byrne the time to set out during the summer
1:38:46
what his prospectus is, what his difference he would make, and then do a smooth transition
1:38:53
and by and large keep, as far as the policies are concerned, most of them are good and have been working
1:39:00
They've just not had an effective salesman to actually sell them with any conviction
1:39:04
Yeah, I mean, I don't think I'm going to be chucking away this note
1:39:08
Am I? Salesmanship and stickiness. Do we know why the stickiness? Why was Starmer so sticky
1:39:13
For people tuning in, I should probably just clarify that. I mean that all politicians get a lot of..
1:39:19
well, all left-wing politicians get an extraordinary... All Labour politicians get an extraordinary amount of abuse
1:39:25
thrown at them and lies told about them. But rarely does it stick quite as effectively to one
1:39:31
as it did, and it does, to Keir Starmer. Do we know why that is? Is it partly because of what you've been describing
1:39:37
He's not very effective at picking off the barnacles, as it were
1:39:43
Yeah, I think he's too passive. So to give you an example, I think, here
1:39:47
all of the stories that we've had about someone firebombing his house and the car
1:39:52
and it all been linked to Russian disinformation. Yes, yes. If he had been, I would have thought there was a perfect opportunity for him
1:39:59
to go up and address the nation, to say about what the risks are that are coming from Russia on a personal basis
1:40:04
and say it with conviction. Why wouldn't he do that? Why wouldn't he do that
1:40:09
Because I think he doesn't think that's really part of his job description. Or appropriate to bring my personal life into it or to keep his family out of it
1:40:16
I don't know what the reason would be, but my goodness me, if there was ever a moment to say, look, this is what we're up against
1:40:22
And it's time that some of those people over there stopped doing the bidding of Russians
1:40:28
And I don't just mean Nigel Farage's mate who's literally in jail for it. I mean all of the people who are amplifying this nonsense and constantly essentially shilling for the Kremlin
1:40:38
We need to move as a country against this. even if we disagree about what's best for the country economically or socially
1:40:44
can we all agree that we need to be standing firm against Russian interference in our democracy
1:40:50
And it ties in with his other agenda, as far as the social media under 16
1:40:55
he could have communicated it all together. Pulling out Nigel Farage as far as cryptocurrencies
1:41:02
all of his previous positions as far as Russia and everything's concerned, and demonstrate what is the reality of it is
1:41:08
But they are shields for foreign states. He didn't understand that bit of the job almost
1:41:14
in that it's not just good enough. And of course, he hasn't been great at process
1:41:17
which is, for me, the cardinal sin. But you can't just concentrate on process
1:41:22
even if you're brilliant at it. You also have to fight the propaganda war
1:41:26
You have to fight the dirty war. And he doesn't seem capable of doing that. Nick puts it very well
1:41:30
He just puts it like he's still carrying the Ming vase. And it's time to throw it at someone, isn't it
1:41:36
I think that's the point that Adam's just made very well. It's 12.01. I'd like to continue with this
1:41:41
but in many ways it's up to you, because if you don't, then I can't. So what is the difference between Keir Starmer and Andy Burnham
1:41:47
And if Andy Burnham is leader sooner rather than later, what does he need to do
1:41:51
0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3. And actually, we haven't done much on this since the beginning of the hour, beginning of the show
1:41:58
If you're in Makerfield, if you're in that neck of the woods, if you're in Ashton in Makerfield
1:42:02
if you voted yesterday, What can you tell us? What does that by-election mean
1:42:09
What happened on the ground? Why do you think Andy Burnham secured such a massive victory
1:42:13
And what repercussions does it have for the entire nation? So tell me why this result matters to the UK
1:42:20
and not just to Makerfield, because of something that happened there. I know the numbers, I can read the room
1:42:25
and I can count, unlike Sarah Pochin. But what happened up there of national significance
1:42:32
to explain, justify or possibly refute the optimism that people are feeling that Andy Burnham might be the man
1:42:39
that can defang the fascists. It's 12.03. James O'Brien on LBC. Minutes after 12 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:42:50
We will continue this conversation, but I think give it a slightly new nudge
1:42:54
um this is quite i i are we underpricing a a a non-burnham candidate he he who wields the knife
1:43:05
never wears the crown is one of those phrases that sounds as if it comes from shakespeare but
1:43:09
i think it's much more recent than that i i listen it's it's friday it's hot out um i'm in a
1:43:17
air-conditioned studio so i'm not feeling particularly sweaty or or warm but you may
1:43:22
well be. So, should we just have a little bit of fun with this
1:43:26
same story, staying in the same sort of territory, but between now and one o'clock
1:43:30
You don't have to have a PhD to answer the question that I'm about
1:43:34
to ask you, but if we leave Starmer and... So, the Starmer-Burnham question is, what's the
1:43:40
difference between Keir Starmer and Andy Burnham? Well, it sounds like the opening line of a joke
1:43:44
doesn't it? Possibly you could write a punchline. There you go, that would be one way for us to have a bit of
1:43:48
fun together between now and one o'clock. What's the difference between Andy Burnham and Keir Starmer? One of them, do-do-do-do-do, and the other one, do-do-do-do-do-do-do
1:43:55
But what is the difference between Andy Burnham and Keir Starmer? And does that give you hope or dismay about the Labour Party's current situation
1:44:07
03456060973. But what about someone else? What about someone else? Shall we actually just do that
1:44:20
I don't think we've ever done that. It looks to me as if Starmer's position is incredibly vulnerable
1:44:26
more vulnerable than it has ever been and arguably more vulnerable than it should ever be
1:44:30
But the idea that there is not going to be some sort of leadership battle or coup
1:44:35
seems to me right now to be fanciful. But what about if it's neither of them
1:44:43
Who would you quite fancy? Because Wes Streeting kind of started the ball rolling
1:44:47
He's still there. Wes Streeting is sharp. Wes Streeting is a very very clever fellow He the one that makes me think about John Major toothache actually Would you like to know about John Major toothache Right I give you the phone number You can ring in to tell me who you think we should be talking about as a potential leader
1:45:07
of the Labour Party, as a potential Prime Minister who is neither Keir Starmer nor Andy Burnham
1:45:13
So you can begin with West Streeting if you want, while I tell you about John Major's toothache
1:45:17
0345 6060 973. Who else should we have been talking about and why
1:45:24
because obviously I can make a list of all the names that bit's easy but why
1:45:28
tell me why you don't want either of them you quite fancy somebody else 034 but you know the number
1:45:33
so this may be something I've either misremembered mythologised or mistaken but I don't think it's any of those things
1:45:42
I think it's true when Margaret Thatcher walked the plank when her position became untenable
1:45:50
after I think the intervention of a stalking horse was it a stalking horse with thatcher but anyway she realized she wasn't going to be able to sustain
1:46:00
her premiership and the vultures were circling and john major disappeared so the people that
1:46:07
looked like they were most likely to replace her if memory serves were michael heseltine and
1:46:11
douglas hurd i mean we're going back a while now so younger listeners may want to pull up a chair
1:46:16
and light a pipe and john major who was her chancellor at the time he just disappeared
1:46:23
And it was made known that he'd had a wisdom teeth operation and couldn't talk
1:46:31
So there was no point even ringing him. So John Major, while Margaret Thatcher was in a position
1:46:38
I think a little bit further down the road than where Keir Starmer finds himself this morning
1:46:42
but pretty much the same road, John Major, Chancellor of the Exchequer
1:46:47
and therefore, you know, very much a contender in any coming leadership battle
1:46:52
John Major let it be known that he'd had a wisdom teeth operation and couldn't speak
1:46:57
which meant that he could just step out of it entirely. People couldn't even ring him to find out
1:47:02
whether or not he was going to throw his hat in the ring. He didn't have to canvas, he didn't have to do anything
1:47:06
It was a bit like not interrupting your enemies while they are making mistakes
1:47:13
It's not quite like that, but it gave him this extraordinary distance from the battlefield
1:47:19
which meant he could sit and wait to see how things shook down
1:47:23
before deciding what to do. Clearly, like almost every politician who achieved a certain level of seniority
1:47:32
he fancied the big job. But he managed to... Unless he really did have a wisdom teeth operation
1:47:39
and genuinely couldn't talk. And I think, I'm trying to just place it chronologically
1:47:45
there wouldn't have been email then, and certainly not texts. But anyway, he managed to sit it out until an opportunity presented itself for him to get involved or to make a move
1:47:58
He managed to sit it out. And it's a reminder that while we, people who talk about politics, focus obviously and immediately upon the key players, upon the key candidates
1:48:13
It often turns out not to be the one who wields the knife
1:48:20
the one who wields the dagger, who ends up wearing the crown. And so, first of all, you've got Wes Streeting
1:48:27
But who else do you fancy? I'm going to make an admission to you that you've already worked out
1:48:33
I really like Dan Jarvis, but I can't really tell you why
1:48:37
except that he's obviously really hard. That's it. He's really hard and he's northern
1:48:42
He's nails. Dan Jarvis. He is as hard as flipping nails and as bright as a button. He's brave, clearly
1:48:49
from his service in the Paris. I'm going to stop saying that his nickname was the steely-eyed
1:48:54
messenger of death, because that might be a bit of a millstone around his neck when it comes to
1:48:59
going after certain votes. But I just find myself going a bit weak at the knees when I think about
1:49:04
Dan Jarvis. I'd say he's the man I want to be Prime Minister, because I think he could see off
1:49:09
anybody but i i mean i don't know do we live in such an era now of shallowness that that's enough
1:49:15
to call for someone to be prime minister i'm just giving you an indication of how i want the next
1:49:20
hour of the program to be conducted i am not looking for phd level ysis unless you're
1:49:24
able to provide it easily it was 33 to 1 apparently when it started john major so seriously if we are
1:49:31
about to find ourselves looking at a multi-party a multi-faceted leadership battle then anything
1:49:38
could happen. So who would you put a few quid on at 33 to 1
1:49:43
and why? I hope you want to join in with this conversation because I'll really enjoy it
1:49:50
I'm going for Dan Jarvis and the reason why is because he's really hard
1:49:56
03456060973 and he also has a very powerful and moving backstory and I don't want to be cynical
1:50:01
about it, but it speaks to a kind of humanity that is often
1:50:05
absence from politics, the opposite of a robotic politician. I think he is a military hero
1:50:13
as hard as nails, and Northern. To me, those three things have incredible salience in our
1:50:22
sort of electoral calculus. But I grant you, I couldn't write a PhD thesis about it, which is
1:50:26
why I can't demand that you can with your candidates. So who else should we be putting
1:50:30
on the list. Who else should we be considering? When we remember that John Major was 33-1
1:50:37
to replace Margaret Thatcher, unless I've been misinformed by my texter, but let's pretend I haven't
1:50:43
John Major was 33-1 to replace Margaret Thatcher. Everybody thought Heseltine or Douglas Hurd
1:50:49
So right now, it looks like Keir Starmer is leaving the building, and everybody thinks Andy Burnham
1:50:54
What about Wes Streeting? What about Ed Miliband? What about Al Carnes
1:50:58
What about Angela Rayner? What about David Lammy? What about Dan Jarvis
1:51:03
Who do you quite fancy for it and why? Hit the numbers now. You will get through
1:51:11
0345 6060 973. James O'Brien on LBC. It's Royal Ascot this week, isn't it
1:51:17
So the slightly longer odds, the runners and riders who we aren't talking about yet
1:51:22
because the leadership battle hasn't been triggered, but who may well toss their hats into the ring when it is
1:51:27
And come at me, you know. from unexpected angles. Is there a politician I haven't mentioned
1:51:35
If you fancy a politician I have mentioned, then tell me why. But is there one that I haven't mentioned
1:51:41
Because you know Cameron is an interesting character. David Davis had been anointed as the next Conservative leader
1:51:48
when Michael Howard was preparing to depart, although Michael Howard had already anointed David Cameron
1:51:54
It's a fascinating little bit of Tory history, that. One of the only occasions in British political history
1:51:59
where the outgoing leader prepared the ground for the successor as opposed to the successor being someone who's played a role
1:52:07
in the defenestration of the predecessor. So Howard knew he was going and he had a peaceful departure from office
1:52:16
and he'd got kind of people like Danny Finkelstein and David Cameron and George Osborne
1:52:21
He had them preparing for power even as the national narrative was that David Davis was going to take over And then there was a party conference and Cameron delivered a decent speech and Davis didn And suddenly the pendulum swung
1:52:35
And the next thing you know, David Cameron is leader of the Conservative Party. And then blink and you miss it, he's Prime Minister, albeit in a coalition
1:52:42
Anything can happen is the point that I'm making. So we probably should avoid staying in the trap that says it's Starmer, Burnham or Bust
1:52:51
which is most obviously and most immediately rather unfair on West Streeting
1:52:55
So what do you reckon? Who might be the outside bet? Daniel's in Leeds
1:53:03
Daniel, what would you like to say? Oh, hi, James. First time we've ever spoken
1:53:07
You say that. We could have spoken before and just not noticed. Yeah, okay
1:53:11
For me, it's Al Karns. Is it? Yeah. I think for two reasons
1:53:18
Two main reasons why I think both. Andy Burnham and Keir Starmer aren't suitable
1:53:25
Why not? So, first one is polarisation in Britain. I think you want a character, a leader
1:53:33
who can potentially unite the country. And I don't believe that Andy or Keir
1:53:38
have the necessary gravitas or personality to bring people together. I just don't think they really appeal to those..
1:53:47
Well, hang on a minute. We hadn't heard of Al Kahn six months ago, had we? How can you suddenly have had a masterclass
1:53:52
in what a winning personality he has? What have you seen that I haven't seen
1:53:56
I wouldn't know him if he walked into the room now. No, and that's... In some ways..
1:54:00
Excuse me, hang on a minute. I'm terribly sorry. You're not Al Kahn, are you? No, no, no
1:54:04
No, not you. I'm just talking to the person who just came into the room. No, it's not Al Kahn
1:54:09
He's just here to refresh my tea mug. Carry on, carry on, Daniel. OK, so he spent most of his career in the military
1:54:16
and he held a senior position within the SAS. So I don't think he's..
1:54:21
SBS, wasn't it? Sorry, oh yeah. See, I don't know actually. It may have been the SAS
1:54:27
Go on. But my point being is two things. So first of all, I think he takes defence very seriously
1:54:35
You were so with Dan Jarvis. Jarvis, Jarvis, Jarvis. Give me a J, J, give me an A
1:54:43
A, sorry, carry on. That's all right. And I do think that for those who, I think he would be able to appeal to people who may be um and are in between, let's say, Labour and reform
1:54:56
I think his personality comes across as a bit, maybe as a bit of a strong man, but I think the fact that he is a military background, he's very capable physically, he's got a commanding presence
1:55:09
He's as hard as nails. So we can agree that what they need next
1:55:13
they need someone who's as hard as nails. It sounds bizarre. It really does
1:55:17
I don't think it does. It's a political leader. It is crazy that you would think
1:55:21
OK, what does physical prowess have to do with leading a country? But it's not just that
1:55:26
When you listen to him, he sounds like somebody who has a lot of integrity
1:55:31
and really wants the best for the country, and he doesn't sound in any which way slimy or political
1:55:38
because he's only been in politics for a few years. And a great backstory as well
1:55:43
Raised by a single mother in Aberdeen, went to a local comprehensive school, the Hazelhead Academy
1:55:50
And then, as you say, joined... Well, originally, he was a Royal Marine Commando. He enlisted, commissioned in September 2002
1:55:57
rose to captain, got promoted to major in 2010, joined the Special Boat Service, served in Afghanistan
1:56:05
five operational tours in Afghanistan, mentioned in dispatches in recognition of gallant and distinguished services in Afghanistan
1:56:11
during the period 1st of October 2006 to the 31st of March 2007
1:56:16
He received the military cross again in recognition of gallant and distinguished services
1:56:22
And what we're looking at now in this country is fake patriots sticking tatty flags on lampposts
1:56:29
and pretending that there's anti-white racism out there. And one of the best antidotes to that you're suggesting
1:56:35
and I guess with my high regard for Dan Jarvis, I am too, is just stick the real deal up against them
1:56:40
Exactly, 100%. And that's it. And in terms of Labour values, yeah, I think he stands for all the best things
1:56:50
I associate with the Labour Party. I'll vote for any party. And I have voted for the Tories, Lib Dems and Labour
1:56:58
Basically, whoever I think is the best place to lead the country at any given point in time
1:57:04
and I think as well when it comes to international relations I think about the war in Ukraine
1:57:09
I think about Britain being undermined by America and you think okay who do you want to be in the room
1:57:17
negotiating on behalf of Britain's interests on the international stage and I just think given his background
1:57:23
obviously I don't know the guy but again it comes down to gravitas
1:57:27
but I don't think he'll be intimidated by Trump or by others like
1:57:32
How can he be intimidated by Trump? He's climbed Mount Everest. Exactly. That's true
1:57:38
That's not a figure of speech. I'm not being disparaging to Andy Burnham. No, but he's never climbed Mount Everest, has he? No
1:57:43
He's never been in a firefight. He's barely been up Scarfell Pike. Exactly
1:57:50
Sue's been in touch. She says, can you please let people finish a sentence and stop interrupting them with your childish interventions
1:57:56
Can I just clarify, Daniel? You enjoy my childish interventions. Yeah, yeah, it's good banter
1:58:01
Exactly that. Thank you. Yeah, get lost, Sue. It's 12.24. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:58:06
It's true that? I didn't know that. God, every day's an education, isn't it? This is why I like this topic
1:58:10
Tell me something I don't know about one of the other candidates
1:58:14
So if Daniel had rung in and said, hey, James, Alcanz climbed Everest, I'd have gone, shut up
1:58:19
I'd know about that. You know, look at what... He climbed Everest. It was only last year
1:58:23
He climbed Everest last... Did you know that, Keith? You didn't even know who Alcanz was last year, did you
1:58:28
I'm still not entirely sure I'd recognise him if he walked into the room now, I know that he climbed Mount Everest with four other ex-special forces members
1:58:36
And they used xenon gas to speed up their altitude of climatisation
1:58:39
which some people think is cheating, to which he responded by saying, look, the reality is if I had six to eight weeks to climb Everest, I would
1:58:46
But I'm a government minister and I don't have time. So I used magic gas to climb Everest
1:58:51
Oh, man, alive. I can see the argument here. Who else are we going to put on the list
1:58:58
And of course, you can include Burnham and Starmer as well. but you get extra points for bringing in somebody new to the conversation
1:59:04
Daniel, thank you. David is in Sevenoaks. David, what would you like to say? Hello, I think... Hello, James. How are you
1:59:10
Very well, David. Very well. I'm feeling quite inadequate the more I read of Alcantara's Wikipedia entry
1:59:15
the more pathetic I feel about what I've done with my life. He climbed Everest last year
1:59:20
What did I do last year, Keith? Nothing, really. Any more books coming up, maybe
1:59:25
I didn't even write a book, mate. Not last year. No, carry on, David. Okay
1:59:29
I think the most important thing about last night and this morning was that we got someone with a political background
1:59:35
running the seat that Andy Burnham went for. I'm really scared this country is going in the place of Trump
1:59:44
where a Fox News presenter is in charge of defence. And, you know, if you get a plumber
1:59:50
nobody hates plumbers with no political background, running Majorfield, I'm glad that didn't happen
1:59:56
You know, I'm scared to death of this country. I've been down the stairs this morning, he's 15, he said, oh, Keir Starmer's resigned
2:00:04
I said, no, he hasn't. How did you know that? I said, why? He said, oh, on TikTok, he's resigned
2:00:09
I'm like, so it's got to the point where I'm trying to explain to my son
2:00:14
he says, oh, I love reform. I said, look, it's getting bad, it's getting bad
2:00:18
Let's just try and stay with the grown-ups in the room, shall we? Let's just try and get politics to do politics and move on from there
2:00:25
I don't like this ysis. I mean, I know exactly what you're saying, as in a sort of professional doing the job
2:00:33
But there's been a successful attempt in recent years to sort of demonise the notion of the career politician
2:00:39
And Burnham's not a career politician. He has worked outside of politics, but he was a spad
2:00:44
And I don't know that that is quite... It might appeal to you, and that is obviously all that I've asked you to provide by ringing in
2:00:51
But I don't know, actually, that it is as powerful as having, for example, a proud record of military service
2:00:58
I think that's a much more impressive thing to bring to the table at this point in our political cycle
2:01:03
for precisely the reasons that you cite. Because obviously I also worry about the direction of traffic that you've described
2:01:11
Yeah, I mean, I've just taken up a counselling course as well, because I run an architecture practice and we're falling flat on our feet at the moment
2:01:19
We need a bit of a boost. Can I ask you a personal question
2:01:24
You can do. I mean, you seem like a decent bloke. How on earth has your 15-year-old son ended up falling for Farage's nonsense
2:01:30
Oh, TikTok. He just sees all these quick things on TikTok all the time
2:01:34
Nick his phone, mate. Nick his phone and reprogram his algorithm so that he gets more of me. I'm all over TikTok, apparently
2:01:40
Oh, I know you are, James. You need to reprogram, recalibrate your son's phone, seriously, before it's too late
2:01:47
12.28 is the time. Speaking of dangerous politicians, would you like, I've finally worked out something about Donald Trump
2:01:57
And I've been put in mind of it, actually, by, I've received quite a poignant message from someone I know about domestic violence
2:02:08
and the appalling intervention of Sarah Pochin, essentially blaming the football team in the event of the uptick in domestic violence
2:02:15
that always accompanies big sporting tournaments, whether we win or lose. And I've received a message from someone
2:02:24
who describes the Refuge and Women's Aid who run the 24-7 National Domestic Abuse Helpline
2:02:31
as having saved her life. And the number for that is 0808-2000-247
2:02:38
So I hesitate to reach for a metaphor of the abusive husband or the abusive father
2:02:44
But if you want to understand how Donald Trump's inner circle treat Donald Trump, I think it's very helpful to have in your mind the idea of a completely unstable parent or teacher
2:02:57
Maybe not teacher unless you went to a school like mine, a completely unstable teacher
2:03:02
There is nothing worse for a child than inconsistency. You do something on Monday and you get given a biscuit by an adult because they love it
2:03:10
and you do exactly the same thing on Tuesday and you get clipped around the ear
2:03:14
because they are dysfunctional and unstable and quite often abusive. I think we can describe Donald Trump as abusive
2:03:21
verbally abusive, certainly, in his approach to other human beings. So I'm going to play you a clip after the news of J.D. Vance
2:03:29
which was the moment the clouds cleared for me in what you do if you're in Donald Trump's inner circle
2:03:35
but it is an intervention of such extraordinarily pathetic posturing from Vance
2:03:43
that you almost won't believe that the man can be vice president of the United States
2:03:48
but it's a crucial key to understanding how Trump manages to carry on Trumping
2:03:54
but before that Amelia Cox has your headlines James O'Brien on LBC
2:03:58
it's interesting that so many people Like, you know, if you give Donald Trump an IQ test with the other 45, 46 presidents that the United States has had, I guarantee he'd be either near the top or at the top
2:04:14
Gone. AI or real. And it's interesting that so many people, like, you know, if you give Donald Trump an IQ test
2:04:23
with the other 45, 46 presidents that the United States has had
2:04:27
I guarantee he'd be either near the top or at the top
2:04:32
Mate, he wouldn't even beat the ones that are dead. Seriously. J.D. Vannister, so that's what they have to do, isn't it
2:04:39
It's like they're giving him a peace prize. They can't really give him a prize because he's the vice president
2:04:44
But you're dealing with an unhinged bully. You have to keep bringing him biscuits
2:04:49
You have to keep patting him on the head. The man's 80 years old, and they still have to keep treating him
2:04:55
as if he's a recalcitrant toddler. And that's just pathetic. J.D. Vance is a grown man
2:05:03
and he has to publicly pretend that Donald Trump is cleverer than Barack Obama
2:05:10
who I think was a professor, wasn't he, before he went into politics
2:05:14
Donald Trump was a... Well, man can't even turn a profit running a casino
2:05:20
It's just amazing to sometimes note these moments that have become so commonplace
2:05:26
that we don't properly register them anymore. But talk about a national decline
2:05:31
So I'm putting together a list of what the next leader, the next prime minister needs to be
2:05:37
working on the slightly unfair proviso or presumption that it won't be Keir Starmer
2:05:43
And I think, I mean, sadly perhaps, depending on where you sit. It is highly unlikely that he's going to hang on
2:05:51
even if he currently insists that he's going to try. And who else should be in the mix
2:05:57
So we've had a fairly powerful account of why Al Carnes should be
2:06:02
although almost every single thing that was said about Al Carnes could also be said about Dan Jarvis
2:06:08
Northern, does Al Carnes have a Scottish accent? I can't hear his voice in my head
2:06:13
He does, does he? I think he does. Can we hear their voices? Can we get some voices on
2:06:17
Because I think voices are important. And backstory is important. I don't know if you're ever going to beat, for backstory
2:06:26
I don't know if you're ever going to beat the bloke who grew up in a drawer
2:06:33
There has been a challenge in politics, in Labour more broadly, where you've got people from a certain background
2:06:40
a certain social class, a certain perspective, who exercise power. And I think it's one of the reasons
2:06:50
we got a big divide in our country actually But I saw a survey today a bit of research that had the general public when they asked asked about the social back class background of different
2:07:05
politicians I think there were more people there were way more people who thought I was middle
2:07:10
class than working class and there was a sizable group of people who even thought I was upper class
2:07:14
and it made me laugh because i i as i said in my speech this morning i spent the few first few days
2:07:22
of my life living in a drawer in my nan's council house in east london um my mum was a single mum
2:07:30
and i lived on a council estate we experienced not just hardship but proper poverty growing up
2:07:37
it has shaped my politics my outlook and my determination to make sure that kids from working
2:07:43
caste backgrounds like mine have the same choices and chances and opportunities as those from the
2:07:48
most privileged background what worries me about the state of britain today especially think about
2:07:52
the next generation is is that it's not just the working class kids like me that are suffering
2:07:56
it's middle class kids of well well educated well-off parents who are also feeling the pinch
2:08:02
and for me that is the big mission for for the country now as an elephant to make sure the next
2:08:07
generation are better off than the last living in a drawer um i have to be careful because obviously
2:08:12
I had a relatively privileged upbringing, and I don't want to mock Wes Streeting
2:08:17
because I think that his story, his journey is incredible, as you can hear on Full Disclosure
2:08:22
when he sat down for a chat with me. But I wonder how important it is
2:08:26
So, I mean, I'm making a list. I think now a Northern accent matters, actually
2:08:31
That's something that Wes Streeting hasn't got. But I also think a backstory
2:08:35
that resonates beyond the middle classes might be important as well. What else are we going to put on the list
2:08:42
and which candidate most fulfills it. So that's Ed Miliband finished. He's got a northern constituency
2:08:47
but he has very much a southern way of speaking and does not have a backstory
2:08:54
that involves either particular poverty or bravery. So a backstory and an accent
2:09:01
It's not exactly what you'd call heavy duty or sophisticated stuff, is it
2:09:06
But Angela Rayner, of course, was a single mum, also raised on a councillor estate
2:09:11
I think this stuff matters. So, Northern and backstory. You've got Rayner and you've got Burnham
2:09:17
Not Burnham. You've got Rayner and you've got... Well, let me leave it with you
2:09:23
Tell me what you think. Mike's in St. Albans. Mike, what do you want to say? Hello. Hello
2:09:28
So, I think a potential candidate for leadership or very high office would be Lisa Nandy
2:09:37
she for me is a rare breed of politician who when asked a question just answers it you may not like
2:09:47
the answer or you may have some disagreement with some of the things that she says but yeah
2:09:52
the fact that she doesn't avoid avoid the question to me deserves a fair bit of respect these days
2:09:59
i mean i can't argue with much of what you said and i like lisa nandy she's someone else who's
2:10:04
appeared on full disclosure it's as if i've done the entire cabinet without noticing actually mike
2:10:09
but um she's been shocking as culture secretary hasn't she um she struggled with uh the bbc and
2:10:16
what to do with it um but then i think anybody would but you've got gbb's running rampant you've
2:10:22
got ofcom essentially pulling its own teeth out you've got all sorts of questions regarding online
2:10:27
safety and the absolute failure to do anything or put anything in the space where leveson 2 should
2:10:33
have been? I think she's widely regarded as one of the most disappointing
2:10:37
members of Keir Starmer's government, albeit that she remains one of the most
2:10:41
loyal. And I do think is possessed of all the qualities you've described on the rare
2:10:45
occasions when she finds herself being interviewed. Yeah. Well, I mean, the thing is, I suppose
2:10:53
as a leader, or even as a deputy leader in a Burnham
2:10:57
government, perhaps, she will surround ourselves with better advisors. I don't think necessarily it's always the minister that is
2:11:08
the problem. It's the second tier of people informing her. But I think if Andy Burnham
2:11:18
was to become prime minister, in order to be successful, he needs to have a clear out
2:11:23
So a lot of the people that are too tightly tied to Keir Starmer would have to go
2:11:27
That's a really interesting question. Actually, I hadn't thought of that, because it's all very well talking about Andy Burnham being a clean skin but um of course you've got a huge pool
2:11:36
of people to to choose from and the more closely allied you are with Keir Starmer the more trouble
2:11:43
you've got so probably off the top of my head the most vulnerable members of the cabinet would be
2:11:47
Rachel Reeves and David Lammy yes and and for me um uh Ed Miliband he um you know to to be a
2:11:57
successful politician in a high office you have to carry the people with
2:12:01
you. You don't have to make them agree with you 100% of the time but you
2:12:05
have to take them on the journey and I don't think he's capable of doing that
2:12:10
Maybe not but he's certainly someone who I think Keir Starmer's probably more worried about Ed Miliband resigning at the
2:12:15
moment than any other member of his cabinet so I don't think
2:12:19
he fits into the category of being too closely allied with Starmer to
2:12:25
survive into a Burnham government I think he is actually quite likely to be in a Burnham government
2:12:30
I know, and that's the one thing. I mean, I, as somebody who's never really been a core Labour voter
2:12:38
I'm kind of moving towards them as time goes on, because I think a strong Labour government now
2:12:45
is the only way we're going to not have a reform government. and the Milibands just don't do it for me
2:12:57
Yeah, no, OK, that's fair enough. I mean, net zero is much, much, much more popular with the public
2:13:03
than you'd ever imagine from looking at British media, but Miliband, the kind of sense of him having had his go
2:13:09
and therefore having blown it again, we tend not to give second and third bites of the cherry in British politics
2:13:15
to people who won leadership elections. If you lost one, you can come back again
2:13:19
as Andy Burnham is about to remind us and about to prove to us
2:13:23
Just on that, I think everyone's going to laugh at me for saying this
2:13:30
but I have actually been saying it for a long time, and my tongue has been sort of slowly coming out of my cheek
2:13:35
But Cammy Baden-Württembert is going to turn things around for the Tories, partly because they cannot conceivably get any worse
2:13:41
And partly because voters like you would gravitate more naturally towards her wouldn you than towards a Labour leader if they begin to look even vaguely competent again Yes I think you right And I think she is a rather better leader than she is sometimes given credit for
2:14:01
I think the problem is that she arrived in the job about five years too late
2:14:06
Interesting. I mean, I disagree with you. I think she's absolutely awful, but I think her self-belief is hypnotic and contagious
2:14:13
Yeah. And that begins to translate into electoral fortunes. It's as if, you know, it's as if people really did believe
2:14:21
that the emperor's new clothes were visible to clever people. You know, Kemi Bader not just marches around saying
2:14:27
look at my magnificent robes. And she says it so persuasively and so convincingly
2:14:32
that even I sit there sometimes thinking, God, where does she get her robes from
2:14:36
She's incredible. She's my favourite politician at the moment, Kemi Bader not
2:14:40
I just think she's such extraordinary value. Every single time you think that her delusion can't go any further, it does
2:14:46
All the way up to Aberdeen, where she seems to think that promising people will carry on drilling for oil
2:14:50
in a place where they drill for oil is a mark of electoral genius
2:14:54
It's a bit like going to a place where there's an enormous bread factory and campaigning on a promise to eat more bread
2:15:00
And that's it. And then going, we've won because I'm a genius. Now give me some bread
2:15:05
So she's gone to Aberdeen and won an election because she is constantly going on about how we need to be
2:15:10
dragging more fossil fuels into the environment and polluting our atmosphere even more
2:15:15
And arguably the only place in the United Kingdom where that is an absolute vote winner is where they do all the drilling
2:15:20
or where the people who do all the drilling genuinely live. Mike, thank you. Chris is in Bexhill
2:15:27
Chris, what would you like to say? So, for me, I don't want to reject the idea that there is a favourite
2:15:33
or there should be a favourite. My point is that I think the British public are more interested
2:15:39
in what this new Labour leader will do rather than who they are
2:15:45
And I take that really frail from Makefield, is basically people have, like, over-the-half behind Burnham
2:15:50
because he represents kicking out Starmer and, you know, changing the direction of the Labour Party
2:15:57
And I think that needs to be a fundamental message here, whether it's Burnham or Streeting or whoever
2:16:04
takes over, they need to basically have a complete change of direction. What direction do you want them to go in
2:16:11
I think that actually fundamentally we've got real constitutional problems with the UK
2:16:16
I think we need to be talking about electoral reform as a massive priority
2:16:23
We've also got... Do you think they might? Do you think either of them might? I think if they're smart, they will
2:16:31
That's not what I asked. No, I don't know if they are
2:16:35
But if you're smart, you would do that because it's actually in the interest of the Labour Party
2:16:41
because you could call an election tomorrow, stand on electoral reform, and I'm pretty sure you'd win it
2:16:49
Just basically on that one issue or nothing else at all. I mean, you could not change your position on anything
2:16:54
and just hold electoral reform and you'd win the election on that
2:16:58
I don't know that that's true. I think you are very plugged in
2:17:02
clearly quite political and therefore your understanding of issues, not to insult anybody else
2:17:08
is probably a little deeper than the average. And electoral reform, the more attention
2:17:12
you pay to our current, as you would describe it, a constitutional crisis or
2:17:16
the splintering of traditional politics, the more attention you pay to it, the more irresistible
2:17:20
the case for electoral reform becomes. But most people aren't paying that
2:17:24
much attention, Chris. Possibly, yeah. I mean, the reason I say that is I think
2:17:30
You know, I think people need that change. They want to see that things are changing
2:17:34
They want, you know, some sort of concrete plan for that change. You know, you're going to them with that
2:17:41
You know, it separates other things like, you know, you know, splits in the public around things like immigration
2:17:47
or the EU or other things like that. It's a concrete change
2:17:52
Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. We need to move as far back towards the EU as we can
2:17:59
up to and including rejoining. And immigration, the battle of progressives, has been lost
2:18:05
The country is a place where so many people are persuaded that it needs to be lower
2:18:10
that arguing that it doesn't need to be lower is a fool's errand, whichever party you belong to
2:18:15
albeit that I respect the parties that are still trying to do that. They're never going to form a government in Westminster
2:18:22
And the weirdest bit about that, of course, is that it hasn't translated into any positivity
2:18:27
for Keir Starmer. He has literally decimated immigration. He's brought it down at a rate of knots that Boris Johnson could only dream of
2:18:34
despite promising it at every turn. And yet here we are. He is a historically unpopular prime minister
2:18:42
and he's about to be toppled from within. And yet he has done that thing that everybody
2:18:46
two years ago when I was doing phone-ins about what does Keir Starmer have to do, everybody was shouting from the rooftops he needs to bring immigration down
2:18:53
So sometimes the thing that we think we want, the plan that you talk about, can be delivered on
2:18:58
and the public, being a fickle old bunch, tend not to either notice or care
2:19:03
about the thing that they swore blind they cared about two years ago. See, I think the biggest problem here is that
2:19:09
he shouldn't have gone down that route. I think if you're a reform voter
2:19:14
and you try as the Labour leader to try to capture that vote
2:19:21
and say, oh, I'm going to adopt reforms positioning on immigration, all you're doing is legitimizing that position
2:19:29
and you're alienating your base and the people that are genuinely you know
2:19:35
who are basically they're just going to go to reform anyway because you're just saying that I'm a dire person
2:19:42
I wrote about this the other week are you familiar with the W.W. Jacobs short story
2:19:47
The Monkey's Poor? No I'm not at all Mate it's a brilliant story
2:19:51
and essentially it's something that you wish on but the catch is
2:19:55
that your wish will be delivered, but in a way that is terrible
2:19:59
in a way that will make you wish you'd never wished for it. And in a way, I feel that Keir Starmer wished on a monkey's paw
2:20:05
for lower immigration, and then he got it, but Farage has gone full, cold, pure rage
2:20:09
and let's have some more riots kind of stuff. So it's come true, immigration has come down
2:20:14
but it's meant that the racists who were constantly wanging on about immigration have had to start attacking the police
2:20:20
and making claims about anti-white racism. So it's as if it's come true
2:20:24
Can I ask you a question? Yeah. What time is it? What time is it? Yeah
2:20:29
10 to? 10 to 1? Yeah. Because I look at the clock occasionally
2:20:34
while I'm talking to someone, and I've looked at the clock a few times while I was talking to you
2:20:38
and I've thought, either you are the most boring caller I ever spoken to or something quite odd is going on Because you not the most boring caller I ever spoken to not by a long distance You a fascinating bloke But my watch my clock in the studio has been stuck on 12 for the last 10 minutes
2:20:57
And nobody's noticed. That's great, isn't it? Top team. They're all too busy getting the production ready
2:21:02
for my new feature, Mystic Gym. So the time is not 12.39. Here I am staring at my thing, thinking
2:21:08
this is extraordinary. I've been talking to Chris for ages, but it's still only 12.39
2:21:11
When Chris came on I thought I'll just take him up to the 12.45 break
2:21:15
and then we'll go to the break and we'll come back and we'll do something else. So I keep glancing at the clock and it took me a while to realise we're nowhere near 12
2:21:22
So what time actually is it? It's 10 to 1. James O'Brien on LBC
2:21:29
I kept looking at the clock, it's 12.39 still. How long is Chris going to keep talking
2:21:35
I know that's a little bit pot kettle. It's still broken that clock so I need to keep an eye on that clock over there
2:21:40
12.53. I better shut up. Here's a clip of full disclosure from this week
2:21:44
featuring the author of How to Train Your Dragon, Cressida Cowell, who was an absolutely delightful, delightful interviewee
2:21:52
Truly delightful. As you'd expect from someone who creates extraordinary sort of fantasy universes
2:21:57
not just the one that's inhabited by Hiccup, of course. But where that came from
2:22:04
now Hollywood have come calling, of course, as the animated and the live-action versions of the story
2:22:09
But where it all began was fascinating to me, and I suspect will be to you
2:22:14
I didn't do this consciously at all. And again, I think, I mean, it's going to sound so pretentious when I say it, but who cares
2:22:23
I'm just going to go for it. I think you partly know what you're doing, but it's quite good to partly not know what you're doing when you're a writer
2:22:33
So I can't say I absolutely knew that Hiccup was me and Stoic was my dad, a version of my dad
2:22:38
But after I'd done it, my goodness, I did. You know, I drew that picture of Hiccup
2:22:44
a small, lonely Viking in a fearsome, frosty land. That is... Fearsome, frosty land
2:22:51
That is Hiccup. And then I drew Hiccup's dad. And, yeah, that was..
2:22:57
Yeah, it was a version of me. And the father is a version of my dad
2:23:02
And the island is a version of my childhood. Yeah, my childhood on that island
2:23:07
And I sense you can't have one without the other. You couldn't have the picture without the personality
2:23:14
The way you talk about it, I can't draw. I probably can't write either, to be honest
2:23:18
But the way you speak is as if the two are beyond interchangeable
2:23:24
They're kind of utterly inextricable. Yeah. Is that right? Yeah. I certainly, if I come to a difficult bit in the books
2:23:33
I will always go back to the pencil or to the pen. or if I'm struggling to define a character
2:23:40
I would draw the character or a location. I would draw a map of the place
2:23:45
And as soon as you've drawn the map of the place, you know it's treating an imaginary place
2:23:49
like it's a real place and you know how long it takes to get from one place to another
2:23:55
So for me, the pencil, and also the unconscious again. The unconscious comes out when you put pen to paper
2:24:07
It's, you know, a pencil. It's the first instrument that you use
2:24:12
You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Chris DeCowell there, the creator of How to Train Your Dragon
2:24:20
and the guest on this week's Full Disclosure. We've also resurrected an old interview with Andy Burnham from the archive
2:24:28
They're all there. All my full disclosure interviews are permanently available on Global Player or the LBC app or wherever you get your podcasts
2:24:35
But I thought it would be a moment to direct you quite deliberately towards the Andy Burnham one because people are going to be looking for a crash course in who he is and what he stands for in the coming days
2:24:47
And your wish is my command. Speaking of who people are and what they stand for
2:24:53
When I played you the little clip earlier of Sarah Pochin, essentially the Reform UK MP, essentially arguing that the domestic abuse that we see a huge rise in during sporting tournaments, regardless of whether England win or lose, but she hadn't bothered to do that bit of the research, such as her genuine concern for victims of domestic abuse
2:25:16
she didn't even care or know that it goes up when england win by about 26 percent and by 38 percent
2:25:23
when they lose but a few of you have reminded me of a leader's attitude to women's rights as well
2:25:29
which i still don't think enough people have registered um here is the uh evidence of who
2:25:36
nigel farage will negotiate with when it comes to uh deportation matters and i presume you don't
2:25:44
need me to tell you what these people what attitudes these people have towards women oh very
2:25:50
very i mean very interesting i've already got two countries agreeing that if we win the next election
2:25:55
they will cooperate with me the taliban i mean i mean by the way they're not my mates but the
2:26:00
taliban have said they would accept people back from us to afghanistan they've said that already
2:26:06
narja farish they're boasting about the fact that he would send women back to the taliban
2:26:12
Extraordinary, really. I mean, he might be lying. That's the one word of comfort I can offer you
2:26:16
He often is, of course. And I'm not even sure it would be legal to negotiate with the Taliban
2:26:20
from a position of political opposition, given that they're a prescribed organisation
2:26:24
But hey-ho, I'd ask him about that if he wasn't hiding. Although he might have fallen down a well
2:26:29
There's always that possibility. And while we're on the subject of these characters
2:26:33
we should just, I think, reflect upon what the political genius that is Matt..
2:26:37
What's his actual name? It's not Matt GPT. What is it? Goodwin
2:26:41
Matthew Goodwin, who before he became a professional idiot, was actually a politics professor
2:26:46
Andy Burnham is going to lose Makerfield and he's going to lose it by some way
2:26:50
And the reason that I say that is because I know Makerfield and I just ran at the Gorton and Denton by-election
2:26:57
Andy Burnham, firstly, is not as popular as Andy Burnham thinks he is
2:27:02
And Andy Burnham secured a better result than even Andy Burnham was expecting
2:27:06
if you missed any of today's show you can listen back on our free global player app or the lbc app
2:27:11
where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news videos and opinions you can listen to
2:27:15
a range of podcasts including james o'brien daily the best bits from my lbc show every day
2:27:19
uh and as i've discovered or reminded myself today full disclosure interviews with pretty
2:27:23
much everybody who's um potentially going to be in the next labour leadership contest
2:27:28
download the official lbc app for free from your app store now including keir starmer he's there as
2:27:33
well. Coming up at four on LBC, it's Tom Swarbrick, but now it's time for Sheila Fogarty
2:27:37
Thank you very much
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