Up next in 10
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 20thof May, 2026. 00:00 - What's it like being young and unemployed? 48:16 - When does AI use become cheating? 01:36:36 – PMQs – Natasha Clark, LBC’s Political Editor 00:00 - Calls to release Palestinian prisoner as settler violence continues in The West Bank - Arab Barghouti, Son of Marwan Barghouti 02:02:44 – U.S. Roundup – Simon Marks, LBC Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jamesobrien #politics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
James O'Brien on LBC
0:02
Bad story there, isn't it? But, I mean, listen, this is not a sports radio programme
0:08
or indeed station, but that Southampton... I mean, first of all, Arsenal
0:11
Well, fantastic news. Absolutely. I was there. Well, not there. But I got off the train in Islington last night
0:18
and I found myself thinking, what's going on? Because there was about, I don't know
0:23
a couple of dozen people wearing Arsenal scarves, and I thought, there's no game tonight
0:27
There's no Arsenal game tonight. Because if there is, my train would have been absolutely chocker
0:32
That was the timings involved. And as I'm walking to the Kingshead Theatre
0:36
to see a wonderful new play that Rosie Holt has put on called Churchill's Urinal
0:41
I realise, of course, they're just going to watch the City Bournemouth game in the pub
0:47
And then the play finished, and after a warming libation, I'm making my way back to the station
0:53
and I get to the corner, I get to Highbury Corner, just as the sort of last five minutes of the City-Bournemouth game are unfolding
1:01
And it was surreal because High Recorder is full of people watching the football
1:06
through the window of the Old Cock pub. And there was a festival atmosphere there
1:12
So I thought, well, I'll have a bit of this because I'm a big fan of sort of emotional osmosis
1:16
I love being in the middle of emotional crowds, even if I'm not emotionally invested that heavily in the moment myself
1:24
and of course there it was so I was either going to be in the midst of epic heartbreak
1:29
or temporary heartbreak or epic celebrations and happily for Arsenal fans and most Londoners
1:35
it was the latter, amazing scenes but that Southampton story is nuts
1:39
I don't know if you've seen it but they filmed a work experience lad
1:42
or an intern, forgive me filming the opposition's training session and as a consequence of that
1:51
they've been actually binned off from the semi-final for spying on their rivals
1:57
Middlesbrough, and other teams as well. It's just sensational because... And I haven't been following the story religiously
2:04
because, as I say, there's not really any opportunity of us being able to... I have a phone-in about it
2:11
and I do know what I want to talk about this morning. But I have a theory that if the lad involved
2:16
had not been hiding behind a tree while filming the training session on his phone
2:20
then he wouldn't have been caught. if you hide surely this is sort of espionage 101
2:26
don't look like you're a spy it's like turning up to rob a house
2:31
in a sort of arrow strewn shirt with a sack over your shoulder
2:37
with swag written on it if you're going to do spying just stand there with your phone up
2:41
in the air like everybody does hey last night I would say 40% of the people
2:45
outside the old cock pub um 40% of the people outside the
2:50
the pub, were filming the events on their phone. So they're watching the
2:54
television through a pub window and they're filming, but of course what
2:58
they're filming is that magical moment when the whistle blew and all the assembled Arsenal
3:02
fans knew that they had won the Premiership. Anyway, I don't know how there is a phone-in in the
3:10
spying, but it's a great story. Even if you hate football, it's probably worth having a little look at
3:15
because you sort of see so many roads leading into it and out of it. What's going to happen to the poor chap
3:20
who got caught. How did he get caught? How often does this actually
3:24
go on? Are the public allowed to attend the sessions? Because if they are, oh
3:28
honestly. Seven minutes after ten, commiserations to Manchester City fans, of course, especially Christine, who's already been
3:34
in touch with a plaintive plea for us to stop talking about
3:38
Arsenal. I've tried, and if I'm completely honest with you, which I always try to be
3:45
and usually succeed, I have failed. And I think the reason why I have failed
3:50
is that I was trying to sort of turn the Titanic into a ship in a bottle
3:56
I was trying to climb a mountain in one show that is far too high to climb in a hundred shows
4:00
And that's a shame, because I like neat answers. Not simple answers, but I like neat answers to difficult questions
4:09
Yesterday's show was fascinating, wasn't it, when we were talking about the tapestry of anecdotes
4:14
That's a phrase I don't think I've ever used before. We knit together. And by together, I mean you and I
4:19
we can knit together a tapestry of anecdotes which while never purely evidential data
4:24
will provide us with much better insights into what is going on
4:28
a collection if you like of experiences can be really helpful but when it comes to youth unemployment
4:34
I've kind of swerved that element of the conversation I've been absolutely and enduringly fascinated by
4:42
the numbers and the underlying reasons the figure now is that of the 729,000 16 to 24 year olds
4:54
looking for work in the first quarter of the year having no job
5:01
it's a 16.2% figure the highest since January of 2015 it's an 11 year high in the UK
5:10
and 2015, you know, was the sort of back end of the
5:15
austerity global financial crisis mess. It's not a George Osborne, it's not an Osborne's razor question, this one
5:23
It was in 2015, but it isn't now. First-time workers and graduates
5:27
who, of course, have taken on epic amounts of debt in the hope of enhancing their employment opportunities
5:33
have suffered a fall in job opportunities. It's a long list of things that are being
5:37
offered or cited as reasons for this. AI is a growing factor, of course
5:45
but employers' national insurance contributions, many people claim, will have prevented companies from hiring cheaper workers
5:54
Graduate hiring schemes are on hold, partly because of artificial intelligence tools and explorations thereof
6:00
Hospitality and retail, they're looking at some of the largest falls in vacancies and payroll numbers
6:07
and the Work and Pension Secretary, Pat McFadden, doesn't seem to have any meaningful or many meaningful answers
6:14
to the question of what on earth you can do about it. But I'm not going to ask you that today
6:20
I've tried many times to work out what the big social change is in NEET
6:28
Not so much in the people who want work but aren't doing it, but in the people who have almost given up on work
6:34
not through reasons of indolence and laziness, but through reasons of either mental health
6:39
or a sort of sense of pointlessness to it all. It's a great clip somewhere this morning
6:46
that sort of popped up on my algorithm. And it's a young man speaking very powerfully to the camera
6:53
about all these stories reporting a decline in concert attendance. Why are these acts cancelling their concerts
7:02
Why are streaming subscriptions going down? Why are people not buying as much of it
7:06
And we all sit here stroking our beards, or people like me do, my general
7:11
we'll sit here stroking our beards saying, well, I wonder if the ease of access to Spotify has meant that live music is losing..
7:18
And this guy just looks at the camera and he goes, no one has got any flipping it not the word he uses money He talking about his generation in a way that is revelatory for people who aren in it and a statement of the most bleeding obvious for people who aren Nobody has got any money
7:37
and that includes people who work. Of course it does when you look at the proportion of their
7:41
income that's going on their rent. That seems to me to be the second biggest sort of social
7:47
tide, the social wave washing over society, the biggest is the unemployment question
7:56
And I'm not going to ask you today for the reasons behind it
8:01
We will return to that question, of course we will. But I'm going today
8:05
I'm going to cite the memory of one of the, speaking of anecdotes
8:09
one of the most memorable anecdotes that this program has ever thrown up. It's a weird thing
8:15
isn't it, your memory? I've been doing this job for quite a long time now
8:20
And it's not... It wasn't at the very beginning that I remembered the lad that I was at school with
8:26
who just crystallised the most perfect question ever while we were all teasing him
8:30
for being a bit slow on the uptake. It is actually the most human instinct
8:37
to listen to stories. Stories are what, you know, distinguish us from the beasts
8:43
stories, people love stories even scary stories, politics at the moment in this country and in the United States of America
8:50
is contingent upon liars telling scary stories and then scared people voting for them, stories
8:56
stories, stories, stories everywhere you go and the most fundamental question when it comes to spawning
9:00
stories is, altogether now, what was it like? What was it like? I have
9:08
to do this now, I'm sorry if you've heard this anecdote a million times but the audience is growing so fast
9:12
at the moment. I have to recognize the presence of new listeners. It's also one of my favorite
9:20
stories. So we're all sitting there. This would be about 1985, 84, 85. We're sitting in a gym
9:27
in Worcestershire, my prep school. Very privileged education. I talk about it a lot because it's
9:33
important that you know what window I look through the world at when I'm asking you to describe
9:38
yours and we every every other wednesday if memory serves instead of playing rugby or football or
9:46
cricket we'd have a lecture in the afternoon some geezer would turn up and it was always a geezer
9:51
as far as i can recall and and share a story about um the adventures that they'd been on or
9:59
i don't know you might get an archaeologist showing you some relics a civil war i seem to
10:04
remember Civil War cannonballs being particularly popular because you were allowed to sort of pick
10:08
them up and pass them around and stuff like that. And the headmaster was always on tenterhooks at
10:13
this time because he obviously wanted these, he was a massive snob, the headmaster, and he obviously wanted these Tuffington Buffington types to think that he was running a sort of Aristotelian
10:22
Socratic school. And this one guy turned up, I forget where he'd been, up the Zambezi
10:27
or possibly the Amazon. And he brought back a slideshow. And it was incredibly boring
10:35
I mean, like, mind-numbingly boring, but it was probably better than playing rugby on frozen ground
10:41
Do you know that the ground at my school was so frozen? And it was used for grazing cows during the school holidays
10:47
And if the seasons aligned in the right way, you'd be playing rugby on grassland that was so frozen
10:53
that the cow pats had turned into frisbees. you could pick them up like solid discs
10:57
and hurl them at each other in a frisbee style manner and my parents were paying for this
11:03
quite a lot of money so we watched the lecture and he spends an hour or so
11:07
telling us what he did and then we went here and then we met some natives
11:11
and look here's a crocodile and in this slide you'll see the temple of Tenochtitlan
11:15
or something like that and you know we get to the end of it, everyone's fast asleep
11:21
the headmaster stands up He goes, right, boys, any questions? And we're all going, oh, come off it, mate
11:26
I just want to go and have some tea or something and get a biscuit. And he's cross because no one's asking
11:32
Come on, come on. O'Brien, you, boy, you must have a question. No, sir, sorry, sir. And this lad, smack in the front of the lecture
11:41
and he's probably enjoyed it more than anyone else has. He's got his arm in the air. And the headmaster completely ignores him
11:48
because he knows that the lad is going to ask a question that is a little bit, I'm going to say slow on the uptake
11:55
because we were wrong. This is the whole point of this story. It's a brilliant question
11:59
But the headmaster knows he's going to say something. He's going to ask an embarrassing
12:03
a question that will not reflect well on the headmaster. It's not going to be a question like
12:07
I noticed that when you were making a way at latitude 44 and longitude 23
12:11
I wondered whether you encountered that curious meteorological phenomenon known as the Amazon eclipse
12:17
He's not going to ask a question like that. he's not going to work, he's going to say something like
12:21
was it cold, that's literally what he's going to do because he's done it before and we've listened
12:25
and we've laughed and we're all desperate of him to ask the question, was it cold or was it wet
12:30
and he doesn't it comes to him this time around and the airmaster is desperate
12:36
and he's going, oh for god's sake alright, Perkins Minor, he wasn't called Perkins
12:40
Perkins Minor what's your question, and this lad I love him, I love the bones of him
12:45
he just goes what was it like and you can imagine there's 120 boys in the room we've just watched this bloke
12:55
try and tell you for an hour what it was like to go up the zambesi and so we're all rolling around
12:59
on the floor the headmaster is furious but he can't show it uh and and the lecturer gamely sort
13:04
of goes well ah well it was very interesting and then sort of kindly doesn't and as the years
13:12
passed and I got stuck into this job. And I became enduring. I'm fascinated by
13:18
questions, the nature of questions. People often say to me, how do we
13:22
stop fascism? And I say, questions. It's all about questions. Ask them for proof. Ask them what law
13:27
they're looking forward to. Ask them why they have a different attitude to crimes
13:32
according to the colour of the skin of the perpetrator. Ask them why they think that there should be
13:35
collective responsibility for one ethnicity or one religion when an atrocity occurs
13:41
but not for another. I mean, just ask questions. Questions, questions, questions
13:46
I'm fascinated by questions. And that is the best question that I can ask you most mornings
13:55
What was it like? Or, of course, to change tense. What is it like
14:02
What is it like? And that's what I want today. I don't want the why
14:07
I want the what. What is it like to be or to love
14:11
somebody who is not in work. A young person who has come out of the pit lane of life
14:19
that's not quite the right ogy, is it? Well, you've come off the stabilizers
14:24
You've taken off your stabilizers. You're ready to enter into the world, and the world doesn't want you
14:30
Or you may be someone who has decided that the workplace is not for you because..
14:36
Or your son or your daughter, your stepson, your stepdaughter, your grandchild, they have tried and they have failed. That's
14:46
all I want to know. What is it like to be an unemployed 16 to 24 year old in the United
14:52
Kingdom in 2026 Okay That what I want to know What is it like to be an unemployed 16 to 24 year old And given that the demographics or the nature of or the time of day or the nature of this medium
15:10
is quite, um, a quite fluid, I really stress I also want to know what it's like to watch someone
15:17
you love be in this category. Because I've spent hours trying to wrestle with the question of what's
15:23
changed in society to throw up this statistic. And that, of course, excludes the people who are
15:30
not statistics. They are people. They are sons and daughters, brothers and sisters
15:36
And they are, I think, being told that the world doesn't want you. How do you avoid that conclusion
15:44
How do you avoid that conclusion? So, I mean, if you need a little bit more help, and you probably
15:49
don't, but here I am. I mean, how hard have you tried, or how hard
15:53
have they tried to find work? How long could you keep it up for
15:57
do you think, before you got dispirited, before you wanted, before you attempted to give up
16:03
You are 16 to 24, and listen, I love you dearly if life is
16:07
going brilliantly, and you've got 74 jobs, and you don't understand what's going on, but we're
16:11
talking about 729,000 people who haven't, so ring someone else with your story of having bought your first house at 18
16:17
I genuinely do love you dearly and I'm really happy for you. But we're not talking about you today
16:23
We're talking about nearly a million people, 729,000, 16 to 24 year olds
16:29
looking for work but having no job. And I want to know the logistics of it, as in what it is like
16:39
I mean, what do you do? Do you knock on doors? Do you send out your CV? Do you walk up and down the high street
16:45
old men like me telling stories of what they did in 1991 to get a job in the summer holidays
16:50
profoundly unhelpful so tell me what you do what you do how you try because it's an unknown world
16:58
to an awful lot of people sitting in judgment on it sitting in judgment on it and and what is it
17:04
like which is a perfect question because it answers all of those points what is it like well james it's
17:10
like this i pick up the phone i go on the internet i go down the job sale wait but yeah but what is
17:14
it like well it's like swimming in treacle it's like being told that that thing you thought was
17:22
yours is not there are so many answers to the question of what is it like that um i probably
17:30
owe you an apology for not asking it sooner 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need 720 the
17:39
the highest youth unemployment figure since 2015. It's an 11-year high. And I want to know what it's like to be a person, not a statistic
17:50
But I need you to tell me. And listen, shoot me down in flames if you want
17:56
I don't think you can conduct this conversation without talking about COVID. Whether it's the medical implications or the social implications
18:03
of being locked up like lab rats for a significant part of your formative years
18:08
I think that's broken some young people. If I'm describing you or someone you recognise
18:13
I need to hear your voice as well today. But I just want to know what it's like to be in that cohort
18:20
All right? 0345 6060 973. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 23 minutes after 10
18:29
and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. A whole bunch of reasons why the number of vacancies is falling
18:36
and because the number of vacancies is falling, It's hardly a surprise that the number of young people not in work is rising
18:42
But I genuinely want to get together as many patches as I can and make a quilt
18:48
Because in the past, I've tried to make a single quilt. I've thought there's a single answer or a single experience that unlocks this mystery for everybody
18:56
There is not, is there? There might be 729,000 reasons why someone is not working
19:04
A young person is not working. So I'll shut up now and try to collect as many different patches as I can so that together we can put together a quilt
19:13
We'll start in Reading. Erin is there. Erin, what's going on? Hello. Thanks for having me on
19:18
You're very welcome. So, yeah, it really resonated what you were saying with me because it is so tough
19:27
I'm 23. I'm a graduate. I did a Bachelor's of Science and a Master's of Science
19:32
I studied five years for a job that I was promised I was going to get
19:36
and I have been working for minimum wage for the last six months as a carer
19:41
and it's an important job to do obviously but I've studied five years
19:45
to do something that you know and not a single person from my entire class of 30 people
19:50
has gotten the job that we were told we were going to get and the rest of us are you know just trying to make other plans
19:56
and it was so so so difficult you know by the time you paid your bills
20:01
and your rent, like you were saying, you've got nothing left, you know
20:06
It's just everything is so expensive and every single time you buy something, it's a little bit smaller than it was last time you bought it
20:13
And, you know, I've stopped making plans. Concerts are not a thing, like you were saying
20:16
You don't have the money for it. I've given up hope and you just sort of take it day by day
20:23
because that's all you can do. And you are technically not part of the cohort
20:28
that's looking for work, but not in work. you're looking for work while in work
20:33
So that's 729,000 people plus everybody in your boat. Exactly, exactly. And I apply every single day I'm applying for jobs
20:43
I trained as a physician associate and that's got its own set of complications
20:48
but I'm looking for any job that I can possibly get that'll give me a career and not just part-time, zero-hours work
20:54
It's so hard to get your foot in the door. I'm lucky if I get a rejection email nowadays
20:59
How many are you sending out, would you say? In the last year, I've probably sent over 100 applications
21:05
to all sorts of different jobs. The majority do not bother replying
21:10
Sometimes you get a rejection, and that's it. I tell you, one of the marks of how sad and bad things are
21:15
is the feeling you get when you actually get a rejection. Oh, good, someone's acknowledged my existence
21:19
even though they're rejecting me. Exactly. I'm like, oh, that's lucky I actually get to know
21:24
what happened in that application. I mean, the world is a very, very different place
21:28
from when I was your age, but I do actually remember that. It was curious. But the 30 people in your cohort, how many..
21:34
You mentioned none of them have got the job that they thought they were going to get. None of them have gotten jobs
21:38
Some of them went back home to live with their parents. That wasn't an option for me. So I'm just sort of trying to make, you know..
21:45
And this is the crux for me. This is the crux of it. And I have to be careful not to fall back
21:49
into trying to solve everything with one caller, with one experience. But the people who've gone back to live with their parents
21:55
when they do the sums that you do, they conclude it's not worth going out
21:59
to do a job as a carer because my life is not going to improve in any measurable way
22:04
because I'm going to be still living the life that I'm living
22:07
so why would I do the work? the paid work? exactly and the amount of people who've told me
22:14
from the older generation grandparents, that sort of thing you just need to go and sell yourself
22:19
put yourself out there and I respond with I have tried literally everything
22:23
I have driven to places and tried to hand them a CV they won take it they say apply online I have phoned everybody I emailed everybody I know I networked you know my CV is full of charity work and volunteering
22:36
I have incredible experience working with incredible people and it doesn't get you anywhere because you're filling an online application
22:44
they can't see who you are online. And AI is going to make everything worse, not only in the selection process
22:51
but also, in the case of some jobs, replacing humans. Exactly. I mean, I'm so sorry for what you're going through
22:58
And I'm not going to patronise you by wanging on about how bright and bubbly you sound
23:03
or any nonsense like that. But I do wonder whether or not you've got a kind of escape route
23:10
whether you think of going somewhere else. Because that's the worst thing of all, I think, is running out of options
23:18
I think it is so sad because if you'd asked me that question two years ago
23:22
I would have given you a list of so many things that I was actually really excited for
23:26
Sorry, I'm a bit emotional. But I was so excited for my life to start
23:32
And I feel like I've been waiting for that for years. And it's just, I feel like I'm going backwards
23:37
every single time I take a step forward. I have looked overseas, but unfortunately
23:42
you need to have quite a few years of experience to work as a position associate overseas
23:46
And I actually can't even afford a plane ticket at the moment. So it wouldn't really be an option
23:52
You know, I don't have too much support from people around me. I've got a very loving family, but not financially viable
23:58
That sort of makes sense. And I think they don't quite get it either. They don't quite understand why you're in limbo
24:05
They think somehow, somewhere, it must be partly your fault. Yeah, well, my mom was quite good with it
24:09
But yeah, my grandparents don't get it either. I'm sorry. It's just, yeah, people just think you're not trying hard enough
24:15
When I've tried so hard, I've got nothing left. And the numbers support you
24:19
There's no earthly way so many people would be in the same or similar situations if it was down to each and every one of those 729,000 individuals, plus everybody in your position
24:30
And I don't think you need to apologize for distinguishing between a job and a career
24:35
It's why we study. It's what we expect and hope for when we put in the hard yards, in the lecture theatres and the classrooms
24:42
It just opens new doors. And the doors are locked. and I think for Erin's generation
24:48
quite possibly disappearing forever. And everybody sits here stroking their chins wondering why kids aren't going to concerts anymore
24:55
Erin, thank you. I absolutely wish, I say this every few months
24:59
but I absolutely wish I could do more at the end of this conversation than simply say thank you
25:04
but I can't, and I'm sorry. It's half past ten. Dominic Ellis has your headlines
25:08
James O'Brien on LBC. 33 is the time, and a lot of support and admiration
25:14
coming in for Erin, but it's not going to pay her bills, is it? And similarly, there is controversy surrounding physician associates
25:22
Of course there is, but she was right. When they signed up to study, to take up those roles
25:27
to fill those places in the workforce, they were assured repeatedly that the places existed
25:34
that the jobs would be there. And whether it's down to tensions between the NHS and health unions
25:40
or whether it's down to resistance from other members of the medical..
25:44
It doesn't matter. You know, you do the work, you get the debt, you expect the job, and then it's not there
25:51
There's probably a bigger story for us to look at with regards specifically to physician associates and how they've been let down
25:58
May even be another case of Osborne's razor, but I can't off the top of my head remember when that policy was introduced
26:05
but it appears to have blown up in the faces of the young people that signed up for it
26:08
and there is proof perfect of why asking the question, what is it like
26:13
is the best way to solicit the most and most interesting answers
26:19
But it's quite a dispiriting process, isn't it? When you speak to lovely young people who are literally
26:24
you can hear the hope seeping out of their voices live on your radio, coming out of your radio speaker
26:31
And I don't know what question to ask next. How does it end? What can we do
26:36
I think for now, all I can do, and by association all you can do is listen
26:41
Brooke's in Leicester. Brooke, what would you like to say? My point of view is as the parent
26:46
because I have two or in that age graph. I've got one who's 22, he's at uni
26:51
and looking for a part-time job. And he's been looking for well over a year
26:57
and just cannot get anything. He's, like the lady said before, he's gone and taken his CVs in places
27:04
and they're all going, you need to go onto the website. so they won't take those
27:09
He's tried friends and family and he's tried all sorts and he's constantly looking and everything
27:15
And then I've got a 19-year-old who went to college, got qualifications in the trades
27:22
He did get a job for a short time, which was in January
27:26
which is what he's doing. And then the storm hit, the big storm that we had a few months ago hit
27:32
and the work stopped. And because it was a zero contract thing, he didn't get any work after that and he's been looking ever since he's worked at dog kennels
27:41
um temporarily on temporary jobs he's done all sorts of that and and the amount i can just see
27:48
it seeping out their confidence both of them it's just heartbreaking to me but at the same time
27:53
you know it's kind of like we need them to help us with money because obviously cost of living so
27:58
they're at home and we kind of need a little bit of help with that and they're just getting so
28:04
frustrated and i'm i i'm more for for i understand what's happening out there with for the kids but
28:11
my husband's a bit more old school where he thinks that they're not doing enough and i'm like they
28:16
are doing enough there's so many others that are like that out there and because he he went um and
28:22
got a job my husband yes he got a job in his trade in within two weeks he left one job because he was
28:28
suffering mental breakdown, and then got a job two weeks later. So for him, it's working
28:35
But for those, it's not working because they're wanting these two, wanting more one's trades
28:41
and the other one just wants like a barista or in a retail. They're not even there
28:45
They're not even there. And it's very hard not to see the world through the lens of your own experience, isn't it
28:51
I mean, you know, I have to catch myself sometimes, but when I'm saying, well, hang on a minute
28:55
when I was 18, I walked into River Island on Worcester High Street, and when I walked out
29:00
I had a job, and you sort of think, yeah, so what, mate? It doesn't bear any resemblance whatsoever
29:04
to the experiences of these young people. And can you watch, because I'm going to remember
29:10
Erin's call for a very long time, and I know that's no comfort or consolation to her
29:15
but that little moment in the conversation when you could hear her sort of acknowledging
29:20
that some of the dreams she had as recently as two years ago were disappearing over the horizon
29:24
Are you like that with your boys yet? or... Yeah, I am because I can see how hard they are trying to find work, you know, they're
29:33
going out there physically, they're going on, you know, Facebook jobs, Indeed, they're
29:41
going on all these things and they're trying their best, it's not like they're not trying
29:44
I mean, I was telling the lady that there was a job recently that my son went for and
29:51
and 400 people went for that job. You know, it's crazy. What does your husband say when he's told stuff like that
29:59
Does that- Touch the sides. A little bit. He kind of understands it a bit
30:05
but he thinks that they're not trying enough. But I was like, how can they not be trying enough
30:10
They are literally trying daily online. They might stop, you see. That's the thing as well, isn't it
30:16
Because this is where I've been going wrong in the past, trying to get answers that apply to all people in these categories
30:21
But you could spend... How long would you last, do you think? How much rejection could I take
30:25
Would I last a year? I couldn't take an hour. If I send out 400 jobs, I've spent 18 months to apply 100 jobs and I've not got one of them
30:32
Why am I going to apply for 101 jobs? What's the point? Yeah, exactly
30:37
And the jobs that they are applying for are jobs that they have experiencing, but they're just not getting anywhere
30:42
because there's just so many people going for these jobs, you know. Of course, I know
30:46
And one person will get it. And probably some people from our generation
30:51
I'm somewhat cheekily presuming we're of a similar age, although you're probably younger than me, people from our generation will go
30:57
well, hang on a minute. Keith managed to get a job and if Keith can get a job, then anyone can get a job
31:01
Why on earth haven't you got a job? He said, well, 399 people didn't get the job that Keith got
31:06
So what about them? What about them? And how should the conversation change, the national conversation
31:13
Brooke, thank you. 03456060973. I think in some ways the parental perspective can be at least as powerful as the young person's perspective
31:26
because we have to wrestle with the sympathy and the empathy, but also with the knowledge that things have changed profoundly
31:35
And unless you're looking at this through the window of your own child's experience
31:40
it's going to be hard to accept just how much they've changed. In fact, in Brooke's house, you've got one parent who can see it very clearly
31:45
and one parent who, quite understandably, can't quite grasp the scale of the change that we're living through
31:51
So how does the conversation change? How do shows like this help
31:55
today we're chronicling the reality that's being experienced but how should politicians be we can't
32:01
just do another business with their print oh we need more apprentices or we need this or win well
32:06
how does it change how does it work i don't know i'm sorry um dosia is in ealing dosia what would
32:12
you like to say hi uh hello james um i'm another mother so that's similar perspective my son is 23
32:22
years old, graduated in 24 with first degree honours from photography and since then
32:30
he could not find any job, like laundry, groceries or anything anything, forget about something
32:38
towards his profession. How quickly did he give up on looking for jobs
32:44
related to his training? You know what, at some point he says
32:51
okay, I'm just going to try anything because, yeah. I want some money
32:56
I want some money. Not just money. I want experience. I want to get out
33:00
I want to see what the real life is like. I don't want to be sitting at home
33:05
and just looking at the screen of my computer. Yes. So what he decided a year ago
33:12
he registered a company interest company. Right. Which is like just before the charity
33:19
So it's like a baby charity thing. Okay. He is building a program for other people in his age group, which is 18 to 25, just to get them out, just to get them out of their homes in isolation and be able to connect with other people
33:38
Because not only they cannot find a job, they become more and more depressed and their self-esteem is just falling down the chimney
33:49
Yes. and hearing that the young people are lazy and they don't want to work
33:55
It's not a figure of speech I've heard before, but I think I might borrow it from you. It's all falling down the chimney, honestly
34:01
I mean, this is a lovely story in one sense because he's not only trying to sort of find purpose
34:07
but he's also trying to help other people who are struggling to find purpose. But of course, we all want to live
34:11
all three of us want to live in a country where your son's project would not be necessary
34:16
where it would actually run out of clients and it would run out of people in need of help
34:20
because they were finding the kind of work and the kind of purpose that they crave
34:26
Do you understand? Fortunately, it's just getting worse and worse. I know it is. I know it is
34:31
And do we know? Because, again, there's no universal answer to this question
34:36
There are only millions of different answers. The thing that I'm interested in at the moment
34:41
is that moment where you sort of move from being motivated and ambitious and enthusiastic and engaged
34:49
but the world slaps you in the face so many times, it's almost as if your personality changes
34:56
and you become somebody else who is not motivated and engaged and enthusiastic and ambitious
35:04
You know, I'll tell you something. On top of it, my son is neurodivergent. He's diagnosed autistic person
35:10
Yes. So for him to go out in the world and deal with all of this is difficult already
35:14
Of course. and finding himself you know like really pushing himself through his university and doing his best
35:23
and actually being like acknowledged because like he did wonderfully and and he was so proud and we
35:30
all were so proud of him and then realizing you know like basically nobody cares it doesn't count
35:36
for anything yeah yeah would you like to share the name of the of the thing that he's doing or
35:41
Do you want to check with him first? Oh, I can share it. It's not active yet
35:45
Oh, okay. Well, wait until it's active, and then come and tell us, and we'll give it a little push on the radio
35:51
Thank you. No, you're very welcome. And don't forget, all right? I don't want this to go down the chimney
35:56
Okay. Well, there was a drain. No, I miss the chimney forever now
36:02
Forget the drain. It's all about the chimney. Thank you, Dossia. It's coming up to quarter to 11
36:07
You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. the youth unemployment rate in this country has hit the lowest in 11 years
36:16
And if you think back to 2005, you'll probably recognize 2015. It's another story in the news today about people who struggle with maths
36:25
But if you go back to 2015, you'll probably recognize that this is significant
36:31
It's a significant moment. It's not business as usual. And the direction of traffic is down
36:37
The chimney. James O'Brien on LBC 48 is the time I'm reading a message that I'm just going to
36:45
double check with Eleanor whether I should read it out or not because you can probably guess what it's about
36:51
but it is about despair and how quickly you were how do we stop the despair
36:56
if you are a young person who wants to engage with the world
37:02
but the world doesn't want your engagement and I mean Listen, of course you can claim, I'm not going to get cross with you Sarah or anybody else
37:10
who's suggesting that people have been sold unrealistic expectations with regard to degrees
37:16
One in ten of the people that we're talking about are graduates. One in ten are graduates. Okay
37:23
So it may be relevant but it relevant to ten percent of the people that we talking about And in some ways forgive me in some ways their plight will be worse because they have got debt and they had you know promises made
37:41
and expectations enhanced of reward for effort, in a way, which should be the simplest thing of all, but it's gone
37:51
03456060973 is the number you need. if you want to tell me what it's like to be or to love somebody
37:57
who is part of this statistic. 729,016 to 24-year-olds. And then the God knows how many who are working less than 10 hours a week
38:09
so they don't get counted or who aren't really engaging at all because there's not really any point
38:14
You're living at home and if you went to work, your lifestyle would not improve in any measurable or observable way
38:20
10.49 is the time. And one day soon I'll come up with the question
38:24
that allows us to start unwrapping rather than just describing what needs to change
38:30
I mean, and you know what? It could be that the answer is something like universal basic income
38:35
Everything that's wrong in the world is about apportionment and sharing. Every single thing could be improved if you just made things a tiny little bit fairer
38:44
Or not even use the word fairer. You should not have people as rich as, and then insert your favorite oligarch
38:52
even if they do good. It just shouldn't happen. A universal basic income just guarantees
38:58
that everybody has a basic level of decency in every country that can afford it
39:04
And that is, you know, that's most countries. It's certainly all developed countries
39:08
Stuart's in Chingford. Stuart, what made you pick up the phone? Hi, James. Hello, mate
39:12
This subject really gets my goat when you're on talking about it
39:16
because I've got different perspectives. One, my daughter is 20. She's looking for work
39:22
She had an apprenticeship which finished. They didn't carry on her contract
39:27
She's applying for four jobs a week. She very rarely gets a reply
39:32
Then, as the young girl Erin said, it's awful to be a parent and listen to it
39:40
I'm sure. Another point is, this isn't just something that is here
39:46
I was speaking to a friend in America at the weekend. and they might as well have been having exactly the same conversation
39:52
or listening to the same radio show. The kids can't get jobs
39:56
His son's come out of uni, he's looking for a job, but to live where he wants to live in Chicago
40:05
he needs to be earning £100,000 to pay the rent and to be able to afford to live away from home
40:12
So he's still at home. Yeah, so he's still at home. So it's not something that he's just here
40:18
No, I mean, I don't think it is either, but I think there's a problem when we've got a Labour government
40:23
that the elements of the media suddenly start noticing all these young people in ways that they didn't in the previous years
40:29
I mean, it's the highest in 11 years, but it's been pretty bloody high for a very long time now
40:34
And in respect to that figure, it's a lot higher than they say
40:40
Yeah. I know half a dozen kids. I come from a very middle-class area
40:46
Right. And I know half a dozen kids are sitting at home sending CVs out every day who aren't claiming diddly squat
40:53
Yeah, they're not signing on and they're not working part-time. They're off the books entirely
40:57
They're off the country's books. Yeah. And finally, my last point is, so I'm an employer
41:03
Yeah. So I've just got a small garage, nothing massive. I get boys come in, I get sent CVs, or their mums come in
41:11
Can you give him something? If I look at their CVs, probably nine times out of ten
41:20
you've got to think these are boys who are between 16 and 18
41:25
just want to get out of the house. Yeah. You look at it and you go, actually, I'm not really that interested
41:34
But away from that, I've had two boys come in. I've actually had three boys come in
41:40
One boy came in. We gave him two weeks work experience. He did all right, but he..
41:46
Mending cars wasn't for him. But he would be a very good receptionist. His attitude and the way he came across was brilliant
41:53
So he then went and got a job somewhere else, off of the back of what we did
41:57
Yeah. I then had another boy come in. He is the best apprentice
42:03
He left school, didn't even get his maths. He's now going to college to do his maths
42:07
Right. So anyone would just look at this boy and go, well, he's
42:12
a kid with his jeans round hanging off of his arse and he's
42:18
what, you know, there's no real social skills there what this boy
42:24
is worth is weight in gold and what I would say to any employer out there
42:29
who keeps saying, oh I can't get I can't get anyone, give them a chance
42:33
they all need a chance and even in respect to my daughter I got her in my reception
42:39
when she was 14 answering the phone, right? And she did it, and she did it really well
42:46
And you've just got to give any of them a chance. They've all got something to give to any business
42:52
whatever it is, and they bring enthusiasm with it because they're young and people, you know
42:58
I'm nearly 60. I've had enough now. But they've got the enthusiasm for it
43:04
Well, they have for now, Stuart. But that's the thing that's upsetting me most about this hour of the program
43:11
is the sound, not just the knowledge that, but the sound of enthusiasm seeping away
43:18
And I talk to my neighbour and I've got friends who have got businesses
43:22
and they all sort of go, oh, AI's taking over a bit, this, that and the other
43:27
but actually it's well AI is taking away the jobs that they say at the bottom
43:37
which are the menial jobs It's not just doing that I mean we may get onto this in the next hour
43:41
but it's doing a lot of kind of paralegals and people in barrister's offices
43:45
there's a lot of jobs that are under threat But the one thing that will change
43:51
AI taking over anything is when it starts taking the manager's jobs
43:55
because all of a sudden... It'd be too late by then. But the managers will be going
44:00
oh, no, that's no good because I'm going to lose my 100 grand job. And therefore we must think twice about the..
44:05
But it won't matter, will it? Because the only time it's really going to matter is when it starts taking the owner's jobs
44:10
and it's never going to do that. We'll all be Marxists by the end of next year at this rate
44:17
Yeah. Can I give you one last example? Yeah, of course you can. Absolutely
44:21
She sent a CV in, didn't diddly squat about it. Right? Even though I think she's wonderful
44:28
Every parent thinks their child is wonderful. She then spoke to a girl that she worked with
44:34
who actually had got a job at the place she'd applied for
44:38
Right. Within half an hour of her having that conversation with this girl
44:43
she had an interview. What is the difference between that girl saying
44:47
that my daughter's worth that job than her CV saying she's worth that job
44:53
Yes it human interaction And an awful lot of jobs that are advertised are not going to go to any of the people that have applied because they already sorted but the legal requirement to advertise them is in place So it offers that little slither of hope to girls like your daughter that this time it might come good
45:10
but the job's already been filled before her CV even lands on the doormat
45:14
And then a nod, a personal recommendation from someone, becomes, you know, infinitely more valuable than the best CV on the planet
45:21
You're a good man, Stuart. You've touched a lot of people with your call. and I mean if we were to crystallise it down to a single sentence
45:27
just give them one chance That is it let them come in front of you
45:32
and give them a chance because there is so many kids out there
45:37
who just need a chance it doesn't matter where they come from
45:41
or what education they've got they need a chance And I mean you can't argue with that
45:47
you really can't and the absence of chance must be one of the hardest things
45:52
because we never had that Stuart's a little bit older than me. My generation never had that
45:56
You might think, oh, my dream job's not going to happen. But, you know, I'll do my fallback job or I'll do that job
46:03
or I'll go into that sector and I'll be all right. I don't think they've got that
46:07
I don't think they've got that. Sorry. I don't think you've got that. If you're in that cohort
46:12
Stuart, take care, mate. Joel's in Eggham. Joel, what would you like to say? Hi, James
46:16
Thanks for taking my call. You're very welcome. If I'm to say it all in one sentence
46:20
I'd say what it feels like is you pay the rent for where you live
46:24
and then you still get evicted. Like you've done all the right things
46:29
you've signed up to the societies, you've done the free work, the volunteering, the work experience
46:36
Yeah. And then you still can't get your foot in the door when it's your turn to make money from what you studied
46:44
and what you love to do. How slowly does that penny drop
46:48
Because it's clearly dropped for you, which means you're a year or two out of college, I suspect
46:52
out of university or training. Out of university, two years, yeah. I mean, it's starting to drop
46:58
and I'm starting to lose hope every now and then. But every now and then I'll see a job
47:03
and it will really excite me, and I will redo my whole CV
47:06
I'll write a cover letter. I'll go through the long processes, and then just to hear nothing
47:12
What's the closest you've got? The closest I've got, the last time we spoke
47:16
I had got quite close. Oh, I remember. And I got close again. Yeah. Right, so I applied for a job in a school as a marketing officer
47:24
and I was really close. I was basically the second person. And the limiting factor was how much money I was asking for
47:34
I was asking for the entry-level salary, which is about $25,000 for a role like that
47:40
And the person who got the job, they were just coming back into work after 10 years out of the job
47:46
and they were able to take half that. Good Lord. For the same role
47:52
And it's just quite hard to compete with someone who has low overhead
47:57
Of course it is. Of course it is. And I can't blame them. I mean, you've already, I think
48:03
or when would you start looking for something that is not directly associated with what you've trained for
48:11
Yeah, I've already done that. I've looked at sales things. I've looked at things just like working in an office as an admin
48:18
And every single job is garnering hundreds of applications. And, I mean, you can only hear the words, it's not you, so many times
48:29
because eventually you're going to start thinking. And you know that it isn't you. You know that there's hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people
48:35
in a very similar situation. But you only feel your pain. And it's that sort of slow extinguishing of the light at the end of the tunnel
48:44
that must be hardest to deal with. Yes. the only thing I'd say for anyone
48:49
out there that's in the same position is that I think it's worth it
48:53
the feeling that you get when you get so close to a job it's almost that thing
48:58
that's what keeps me going personally well next time yeah I mean that's all I can
49:05
say you just so many people in these situations who when I was their age
49:11
would have been snapped up by any number of people getting in time in fact probably the
49:15
bleakest message I've had today and I've had about 10 say more or less the same thing, say
49:19
I'd hire this person in a heartbeat, but I can't afford to hire at the moment. And yeah, look, politics is a massive contributor
49:25
to all of this, of course it is, but it is absolutely not the beginning and the end of the
49:29
conversation. Whatever your friendly neighbourhood right-wingers may pretend, because when the Tories
49:35
are in power, they have absolutely nothing to say about these figures. And one of the big things is
49:40
wherever you look and however you dice it, one of the big things is
49:45
AI. And it is time I think for one of our irregular
49:49
returns to the various questions thrown up by that burgeoning technology including today a very
49:54
personal one that I have for you. James O'Brien on LBC. Five minutes after 11 I don't think it qualifies as
50:03
hope necessarily or an uptick in our sentiments given the contents of the last hour but I think
50:08
Alan Milburn will turn out to be a very wise appointment to
50:12
that particular issue of youth unemployment and his is a couple of you have mentioned his appearances before the dwp select
50:19
committee um have thus far been impressive um today is one day right it's just one day and there
50:29
are in front of me two or three stories that contain that four stories for four possibly five
50:35
um and i'm not going to repeat the same story from different newspapers so you have already
50:40
heard a conversation about youth unemployment that contained AI in the headline, youth unemployment
50:45
at 11 year high as tax and AI hit vacancies. I can tell you that in the business pages of the
50:51
Times, you could read that a bank plans to axe 8,000 jobs for AI. Now tell me those two stories
50:58
aren't related. AI hits vacancies. Bank plans to axe 8,000 jobs for AI. This is standard chartered
51:06
criticised by city shareholders for suggesting that artificial intelligence would replace lower value human capital
51:15
There's a dread phrase for our ages. And it's not new. Please don't think it's new
51:22
They'll be sending your kids up chimneys 150 years ago. People who use phrases like lower value human capital
51:28
Because one thing you can say about people who use phrases like lower value human capital
51:32
is that they are never talking about their humans. They are never talking about their children
51:39
They're only ever talking about yours. Lower value human capital, says the head of a bank getting rid of 8,000 back office rolls to replace them with computers
51:52
That's one headline. I turn the page of the same newspaper and I read that AI-powered nimbyism is fueling planning delays
51:59
So, again, it's evidence of just how widespread it is becoming, while not necessarily being an unalloyed good
52:06
And then, one that's quite interesting to me as an author, literary prize winner accused of using AI
52:14
This is the Trinidadian writer, Jameen Azir, whose short story was, according to..
52:19
I don't know how they do this, AI detection tests deployed by readers
52:23
His short story was almost certainly not produced unaided by a human And that really intrigues me That last bit there unaided by his fiction
52:37
It's fiction, right? It's not... It's fiction. I'm going to keep saying it's fiction for a bit. Is that alright
52:45
Don't get worried, Keith. I'm not... We're not glitching. It's fiction. Fiction. It's fiction
52:52
so why is it cheating if indeed it is i mean the poor fellow i presume has denied all of these
52:59
allegations and we'll have to wait and see whether his indistinct prose poetic language is indeed
53:05
um entirely it's about a woman i have to tell you the story concerned there's a man listening to
53:11
this program in oxbridge at the moment who is about to shout out loud with excitement it's a
53:17
story about a woman who fell down a well that's the story i have a listener one of my most committed
53:24
listeners um going back over 20 years someone who listens to lbc for between 14 and 18 hours a day
53:30
depending on whether or not he's getting any sleep and he is absolutely adamant that the single best
53:36
phone-in you could ever conduct on this radio station now never mind this radio program is this
53:42
one. Have you ever fallen down a well? 0345 6060 973 That's not the phone-in
53:50
Oh, go on then, if you have. But my friend Scott, one of the people who has moved effortlessly
53:56
from listener to good friend status over the years that I've been doing this job
54:00
That is the one. That is the story. That is the absolute
54:04
gold standard of radio phone-ins as far as one of the most... I don't know why
54:08
You'd have to ask him. He just thinks it is... Have you ever fallen down a well
54:12
and here is a story about someone that did and it's won all the prizes so Scott's obviously
54:16
onto something but why is it cheating? why is it so the conversation we're supposed to
54:24
have is about and we will I think of course we will
54:29
it's our irregular visit to the world of AI and how it has arrived in your
54:35
world so when we started only what about two years ago Eleanor
54:38
would you say about two years ago I remember someone rang in and they had a job
54:42
and their main source of income was photographing food for recipe books
54:47
magazine articles and they were one of the first they simply said there's no
54:52
way that my job's going to be here in then one of the maddest calls we took
54:56
was from someone who worked in graphic design who was using AI
55:00
to do the jobs for their clients with the full knowledge that in about six months time the client
55:06
would have worked out that they could use AI to do it for themselves and cut him out of the picture entirely
55:11
And then we spoke to somebody who had a gym, if memory serves, in Brighton, and they had used AI to write an advert
55:18
And when it was compared to the success of the adverts that he wrote himself, he was signing up about 50% more people
55:24
because of the success of the AI advert. And I've got friends who are copywriters
55:29
who write not just adverts, but also sometimes the text on big promotional literature
55:33
that falls through your letterbox or pops up on your computer screen. And they told me that they were counting the days
55:39
to no longer being needed or no longer being necessary. And then I spoke to a barrister
55:44
who told me that if he was entering the profession now, he doesn't know whether or not..
55:49
And he's a case, he's just been made a King's Council. But he is adamant that an awful lot of the clerks
55:54
the paralegals, the non-court performing members of his chambers, of his profession
56:01
were being replaced by AI. I need you to read 10,000 pages by Tuesday
56:06
You want a computer to do it? Or do you want, I know it's software, don't at me on the technicalities
56:12
or do you want to pay someone, do you want to pay a human being, or four human beings to do it? So that goes as well
56:17
And the middle ranks of companies begin to disappear. So yes, the question of how it is impacting on you
56:25
in a way that may be vaguely interesting to the rest of us
56:29
is question number one for this hour of the programme. 0345 6060 973
56:36
has AI arrived in your world and what has it done? Because this is genuinely
56:42
an unexplored frontier. I know we talk about it all the time
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and it's in a million headlines every day but nobody knows anything
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for certain about what happens next. Remember when we thought the internet
56:55
was going to be a wonderful engine for harmony and cooperation and it was going to make the world
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a safer, happier, smaller place? Yeah, exactly. And then along came Elon Musk
57:04
and the rest of them. So we don't know. Nobody knows. Not for sure. People are betting enormous sums of money on it
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and some of them are going to lose enormous sums of money. In the early days of the internet, go on, kids, pull up a chair
57:16
In the early days of the internet, I had friends who on paper were worth millions of pounds
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because they were in on the ground floor of dot-com companies that other people, investors, were betting huge sums of cash on going the distance
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Six months down the line, some of them had nothing, like literally nothing
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The business had been completely subsumed, overtaken by events, or absolutely mullered by eBay or Amazon or one of the emerging big players
57:43
Some of them did very well and ended up selling to some of the very big players
57:48
So it's a market. It's all a game for these people. And guess what? The chips in that game, yeah, that's us. That's you, that is, and me
57:57
We are the chips in the game. The day of me being replaced by a AI person
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or at least this job being done by AI, is probably not so far away
58:11
Do you know another mad thing that happened when we first started talking about this? And I said to you from the start
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all we're going to do is regularly or irregularly visit the world of change
58:21
We're just going to stick our head out the window every now and then and go, you boy, what's happening with AI
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like Scrooge in the Christmas Carol. You boy! What day is it
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You boy! What's happening? We're just going to do that. You boy! Or girl, or woman, or man. What's happening with AI? 03456060973
58:37
But specific to you, in your world. And of course, the jobs that are safest
58:43
are the jobs that involve using your hands. Painters and decorators, builders, trades, all of those things, for now, are probably safest
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So, you boy, what's happening in your world? How has AI hit your world
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For good or for ill, okay? have you lost your job because of it because i haven't asked you that question before
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i've only been talking about writing on the wall i think it's probably time to ask you that one
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but here's the thing i can't help me i've got another book on the gov i told you this
59:08
i haven't signed yet and i know i told you to take me out and shoot me if i ever announced on
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the program that i was going to be writing another book because i find the process strangely difficult
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although i'm hoping i'm hoping with the help of my therapist to uh to change my relationship with
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the business of writing a book, and it's going quite well at the moment, but it's there
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Okay? And this will be the first time I've sat down to write a book while
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fully conscious of just how extraordinary AI can be in helping the research
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process. Publishers are having endless conversations and conniptions about AI and about
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what they should be looking for and what they need to ask their authors, and that brings us back to
59:45
this headline today, Literary Prize Winner Accused of Using AI. To which my response
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today until you disabuse me of it is it's fiction why does it matter it's fiction
59:59
Do you know how old I am? I'm old enough to remember when people got cross about the idea of youngsters taking calculators into their maths exams
1:00:11
I've got a horrible feeling I was one of those people. Well, we didn't take a calculator into a maths exam
1:00:21
And, I mean, there's still a tiny little bit of me that thinks if you're, I don't know, 30 and you don't know your seven times table
1:00:27
it's because you were allowed to take calculators into math exams. Not looking at anyone in particular
1:00:33
A tiny little bit of me that thinks that. But at some point
1:00:38
we're going to have a similar relationship with AI. At some point, we're going to recognise
1:00:44
yeah, all right, we used to do it all ourselves, and now we rely on this technology
1:00:50
We used to use Abakai. Abakai or Abacussus, Keith? We used to use Abakai
1:00:56
Do you know how I know it's Abakai? Because it comes up in Scramble online, so you can use it
1:01:03
So it must be a word, Abakai. And on word, what's the one I like the most
1:01:08
Spelling Bee. It's a good one on Spelling Bee. Easy to miss. I know that we're going to have this moment of recognising the difference
1:01:16
between perfectly reasonable use and outrageous use. So I'm going to write another book
1:01:24
and as far as I'm aware the business of reading loads in pursuit of the nugget that I need
1:01:34
could be done by AI and I think that's fine, I need to find
1:01:39
a quote from John Maynard Keynes about the dangers of dot dot dot dot dot
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or I need to find the time that Elon Musk did the Nazi salute
1:01:47
and I need to, it's going to be so much easier to find those moments using AI and no one's going to suggest
1:01:53
that there's anything wrong with that so when is it cheating you know a mystery out when someone asks a question and we don't know whether it's a
1:02:04
brilliant question or a really stupid one i just got that feeling just then when i said when is it
1:02:11
cheating this is either a brilliant question or a really stupid one isn't it you know where i'm
1:02:17
going to be now i'm going to be 52 48 brilliant because i always am but what when is it actually
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cheating. Because if it's fiction and you put in the inputs that the software then put out
1:02:31
the only human hand responsible for that prose, the only human hand responsible
1:02:38
for those words, is yours. If you type 7 times 7 into a calculator and it
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comes up with 49, have you cheated? So when is it that..
1:02:52
So this is philosophy. This is philosophy. This is very modern philosophy
1:02:59
This is the kind of stuff that they'll be studying. They'll already be studying it. At all the big places, Harvard, Princeton
1:03:04
they'll be doing this in the ethics classes. They'll be having seminars about this in publishing companies
1:03:09
But I want your help with this. I want your fresh brain to bite immediately into this bar
1:03:17
this question. When exactly is it cheating? 0-345-6060-973 is the number that you need
1:03:27
Just tell me, when exactly is it cheating? So, I am about to write a book
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I mean, I'm talking that it's going to take a year or two, but I am about to embark upon my fourth book
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and I am probably going to be using AI in ways that I have never used before
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as part of the research process to help me find things. Where is the line between that and cheating
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when is it when exactly is it cheating i think this is actually i'm nowhere near 52 48 i'm about
1:03:59
95 5 on this being a brilliant question but unfortunately as we've all learned on mystery
1:04:04
which will be back tomorrow when i think it's 95 brilliant 5 stupid quite often i end the hour
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acknowledging that it was 100 stupid shall we find out yes let's oh three four five six oh six
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How's it hitting you? And when exactly is it cheating? It's 20 past 11
1:04:22
James O'Brien on LBC. 51 minutes after 11 is the time. Everywhere you go, everywhere you turn
1:04:31
you will read a story either championing or fearing AI. Most of us would probably struggle to pin down precisely what it means
1:04:43
in contrast to other technological innovations, but I think we've all got a fair and growing idea
1:04:49
Today's headlines, literary prize winner accused of using AI, AI-powered NIMBYism fueling planning delays
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bank plans to axe 8,000 jobs for AI, and youth unemployment at 11-year high
1:05:02
as tax and AI hit vacancies. And to be honest with you, I wasn't looking specifically for the AI stories
1:05:07
They're just stories that I cut out anyway because they were interesting, so there might be more in the paper
1:05:12
There might be more in the paper. And, yeah, I'm just increasingly fascinated by the question of when it's cheating
1:05:21
but always fascinated by the question of how it's landing in your world and what it's doing
1:05:25
Zaheer is in Leeds. Zaheer, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. Nice to finally speak to you. I've been listening to you for years
1:05:32
Top man. Yeah, so just a little insight, really, into our business
1:05:37
We've got a family-run business that's been going since 2013. We've got 10 members of staff
1:05:44
And really, the AI in the last two years has completely changed my business
1:05:50
So I'll give you one example. So basically, I'll give you two different sides
1:05:57
So one, I would say, a positive on our side and a negative on the other side
1:06:01
So it's kind of a weird thing. So we have, basically, we had a marketing agency that would deal with our Google ads
1:06:09
Okay? Yes. Now, they would charge us around about £2,000 a month to look over the account
1:06:14
make sure all the ads are correct, all the ad copies right
1:06:18
the images are correct, etc. And then they would work on the keywords, you know
1:06:21
the little keywords that would bring up the search terms and stuff like that. So is this SEO as well
1:06:27
Yeah, this is SEO and PPC, so, you know, for the Google clicks on campaigns like shopping and stuff like that
1:06:33
Pay per click? Pay per click, that's the one, yeah. And what we did about six months ago
1:06:39
I was literally just scrolling through YouTube looking at different AI softwares that are out there
1:06:46
Then there was a company, which I'm not going to mention, there's a company in America that has launched..
1:06:53
I think that narrows it down a bit too much, actually, Zahir. Let's just say in the world
1:06:58
Okay. Yeah, sorry. Another company. It's not one of the big boys
1:07:02
It's not one of the big boys. It's not anything. Yeah, of course. And really, they have now made an AI that goes into your ads campaigns and checks it 1.6 million times an hour
1:07:18
Okay. And what they saying is because there physically no physical way that a human being could do that and the changes that it can make are instant And basically what it is it fully autonomous So it doesn ask you
1:07:35
It knows what it needs to do. And then it will give you some sort of summary
1:07:41
report at the end of the day to say, these are the changes that I made today
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Are you happy with those changes? If you're not, I can revert them
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back. But by doing those changes, I've saved you this much money
1:07:53
and etc. and it completely changed our Google Ads. And how much do you pay for that
1:07:58
compared to the two grand a month that you were paying to the marketing company? I pay £700 for that
1:08:03
A month? Yeah. So they're still doing all right. I mean, it's a big old margin
1:08:08
and the more people they sign up, they don't have any more overheads because the software or the coding
1:08:14
has already been written, but you're saving £1,300 a month. Yeah, and so I said
1:08:18
on my side, it's worked really well. Obviously, the agency side has lost a client, right
1:08:23
So we've got the positive on my side, but obviously the negative on that side
1:08:28
But, you know, so... I mean, yeah, it's not... You're a business, not a charity
1:08:33
This is fascinating to me, because one of the very first callers we took, as I mentioned a moment ago
1:08:38
was in the foothills of what you've described. So he literally got AI to write his Facebook post for his gym
1:08:45
He wasn't doing any search engine optimisation or pay-per-click or any of that malarkey
1:08:50
he just recognised that he's not William Shakespeare, and AI would deploy its knowledge
1:08:56
its accrued knowledge of what is effective and what is not in the context of advertising
1:09:00
to give him something to stick on his Facebook page, offering free trials to people
1:09:05
and it went 50% better or 100% better than anything he'd ever written himself
1:09:10
This is the natural evolution of that moment that you're describing, isn't it? 100%, 100%
1:09:14
So I have my staff that will come in, and another example I was going to give you
1:09:19
is customer services, okay? Now, with the company that me and my wife run
1:09:25
we've got lots and lots of customers that will give you sort of questions like
1:09:29
you know, what's the measurement of this? Yeah, yeah. Or what is the delivery time on my parcel
1:09:40
Where is it? Has it been lost? Is it gimp suits, Zaheer
1:09:44
Do you make gimp suits? No, we make accessories for people who like to go to cosplay, you know
1:09:50
at, like, big comic cons. Oh, lovely. Oh, I was nearly there
1:09:54
I mean, you could turn up at a Pulp Fiction party dressed as a gimp, couldn't you? But you're talking about slightly more wholesome
1:10:00
sort of, superhero stuff. Yeah, like, if you want a lightsaber or something like that
1:10:04
you know, lightsabers and stuff like that, we basically make them for ourselves. Brilliant business
1:10:08
What a brilliant business. Thank you so much. I love this. I'll give you an advert at the end
1:10:12
but now your customer service is going to be able to answer frequently asked questions, as it were
1:10:16
Basically, yeah. So basically, you can have a person will come online now and it will just literally a chatbot will pop up on our site
1:10:22
You will then say to her, OK, where's my parcel? It will bring up the order. It will answer the question
1:10:27
And that's it. That email from us is never done dealt with us by anymore
1:10:31
The AI knows when it gets stuck and when it's not OK to answer the question or it's got confused
1:10:37
It's literally right. This is going to be passed on to another department and they will get back in touch with you
1:10:43
And then that gets emailed to me. but all good 90% of my customer service now is dealt with AI
1:10:49
How much are you saving, do you reckon? I mean, because you can see it in your profits, can't you, now
1:10:53
Yeah, yeah. We must be saving at least probably maybe 50,000 to 60,000 pounds a year
1:10:59
just on customer services. And a company that hasn't, in the same field
1:11:03
that hasn't done what you've done is going to be operating with one hand tied behind their back
1:11:09
Any negatives, any fears about it? I mean, I appreciate you're no longer paying someone to do the customer service stuff
1:11:15
and your marketing agency have lost a client. That feels like, you know, the price of evolution in a way
1:11:21
Do you have any broader negatives, any broader fears? I would say my only fear would be that there's nobody regulating it
1:11:29
if that makes any sense. The information that we're giving it, there is no regulation to that
1:11:35
You can give it as much information as you want, even if it's bad information or whatever
1:11:39
there's no real regulation like law around the AI. Yeah, that's interesting
1:11:44
And you'd think we would have learned from social media of the dangers of not getting in there early
1:11:48
rather than late on legislation and regulation. So here you're a star
1:11:53
I do have a cool story to tell you quickly before I go. Yeah, of course you can
1:11:57
So our AI agent, she's called Lisa, we just named her Lisa
1:12:00
Right. I had a customer who came online, this is crazy, came online, started chatting to her
1:12:06
She was chatting back to him. He then goes to Lisa. you sound absolutely amazing and so geeky
1:12:12
You're right up my seat. Would you like to go out for a coffee? Okay? Lisa then replies to, I think he's a cameraman
1:12:19
let's just say Paul. Lisa replies to Paul saying, I'm so grateful for the beautiful, lovely comments
1:12:24
Unfortunately, I'm in the relationship at the moment, but because you've really, you know, made me laugh
1:12:30
and made me giggle, here's a 10% discount code. That customer spent £600 with us
1:12:36
in the space of the last month and a half. every time now he comes back on the site
1:12:42
he chats to Lisa and goes, Lisa, I've got this amazing thing that you gave me
1:12:46
What do you suggest next? Lisa then knows the customer. She knows what he's buying, right
1:12:53
And then gives him another alternative and then says, oh, here's a cheeky 5% for you there
1:12:58
because you're my favorite customer. Now, we've given allowance to Lisa to give discounts up to 5% to 10%, right
1:13:05
In certain conditions. She makes the cords herself, James. She makes everything herself
1:13:11
We don't do anything. That's extraordinary. So she's flirting with the customers
1:13:15
Yeah, but I mean, there's an ethical question here. I mean, isn't there a little bit
1:13:20
What if he's robbing little old ladies to buy his lightsabers? Then he's definitely not a Jedi, then, is he
1:13:30
But he honestly thinks... That's a very good point. He honestly thinks she's real
1:13:36
He's only got himself to blame, really, hasn't he, in some sense? It's scary, though
1:13:40
That is scary. You're absolutely right. It's proper scary. And it's, I mean, I could end the phone in now, actually
1:13:46
if I wasn't asking about when. Well, and even that there, when is it cheating? When is it cheating
1:13:50
No one's forcing him to buy anything, but would he be buying? It's only like having someone behind the counter
1:13:56
You go into, I don't know, if there's someone beautiful behind the counter in Greggs, you suddenly find yourself eating more sausage rolls
1:14:01
than you've ever eaten before in your life. Is that cheating? I don't know. What's the name of the company, Zahir
1:14:09
I'll take that five pack of cookies. Are you going to... I think he's gone, but we're still on
1:14:17
And he didn't give the advert. He didn't give the company a free advert
1:14:22
That's flirting with a computer and spending money as a consequence. She's so interesting
1:14:26
Dominic Ellis has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. Can't separate these two conversations
1:14:32
So if you were Zaheer, and the name of his company, by the way, is Next Level UK
1:14:37
and even someone who's relatively familiar with the Star Wars universe is sitting here marvelling at how many different bloody lightsabers the man sells
1:14:46
Who even knew there were so many different types of base-lit lightsabers
1:14:50
I reckon there's close to 100. And some of them are obviously beautiful beautiful bits of work But if you were Zaheer you be doing all the things that he doing And yet in the first hour of the programme we were talking about people who can get jobs including Joel in Egham in marketing
1:15:05
He's looking for a job in marketing. And a successful businessman in Leeds has just replaced his marketing agency with AI
1:15:14
No, I'm just pointing it out. I haven't got a value judgment to make or anything like that
1:15:20
And then you've got the question of when is it cheating? Charlie Brooker, I think, has already done stuff
1:15:24
You're way ahead of the curve, Charlie Brooker. He's such a brilliant, brilliant filmmaker and writer
1:15:30
He really is. He's done stuff about people falling in love with AI, hasn't he
1:15:35
And he's done stuff about downloading your entire personality onto a deal. Is that you
1:15:39
So the question that I am most interested in is not the ones here phoned in to answer
1:15:45
and then lo and behold, he ended up providing us with a brilliant example. When is AI cheating
1:15:49
when it flirts with you and you think that it's real. But I'm thinking more about books
1:15:54
because I'm about to start writing another one. What would be cheating
1:15:58
When is it actually cheating? As opposed to deploying technology to make your job easier
1:16:04
Ruben's in Liverpool. Ruben, what made you pick up the phone? Hi, James. I'm a semi-professional musician
1:16:09
so among other things, I write music and release music online. Yes
1:16:14
And I think that with regards to books and music and things like this, It does get a bit cheating when the whole goal is just to make money
1:16:21
and someone just uses it to produce all the creative aspects. Have you ever heard of Simon Cowell
1:16:25
There's loads of people, the music industry's full of people who are there just to make money. Of course it is, of course it is
1:16:29
But with AI, someone could create in a matter of minutes a hundred songs, upload them all to streaming
1:16:36
and one of them could be successful, and that's all it takes for them to make money out of it
1:16:42
How are we going to stop that? And there's people who, you know, it's difficult to stop it, obviously
1:16:46
but if you take images that are generated via AI, they normally have a watermark on now, right
1:16:52
that says this is an AI-generated image. It doesn't apply to music. So if you go on Spotify, you could come across a song
1:16:58
listen to it, love it, and you've got no idea whether it's written by a human or not. Well, the key word for me in that sentence was love, love
1:17:07
Sorry, I was saying love twice then, Reuben. I wasn't calling you love. I wasn't saying it's love, love
1:17:11
I was saying it's love. Because if I love it, then I love it
1:17:17
Yeah, of course. But it wouldn't matter whether or not someone put hours and hours and years even of work into creating something
1:17:26
Don't make me be this guy. Don't make me be this guy
1:17:32
Because of course it matters. But you just said I love it. And if I already love it, then you've answered your own question
1:17:38
It doesn't matter, does it? Well, I think it does because... Well, I think it does as well, but if I love it, it clearly doesn't
1:17:44
If I love it, it clearly doesn't matter. But you can never go and meet that artist
1:17:48
You can never go and see that artist. And probably you can never actually get an identical song
1:17:53
Because if you take an artist who you like, if you go and listen to their music..
1:17:57
I agree with everything you're saying except that final bit there. I mean, that's why I said don't make me be this guy
1:18:03
I don't want to be this guy. And I don't think, personally, I think I'm far too sophisticated to fall for music
1:18:08
that hasn't been produced as a consequence. I know it is. I know I'm not
1:18:14
I know I'm not. I'm being facetious. I'm being facetious, Reuben. Of course I'm going to fall for it one day
1:18:21
You know, arguably... But the important thing is, as I was saying
1:18:25
if you hear a song that I've written and you go and listen to my other music
1:18:30
then you'll have a good chance that you'll also like that. Whereas something that's generated by AI
1:18:35
that's never going to be generated the same way again. because it's not actually..
1:18:40
I get that as well. You sound a little bit... And listen, before anybody asks me
1:18:45
I know that King Canute was trying to prove to his barons that he couldn't stop the tide coming in
1:18:49
but the history has recorded that moment as him being defied by the tides
1:18:56
and trying to stop them. You sound a bit like King Canute trying to stop the tide coming in, don't you
1:19:03
Well, I'm recognising that AI is writing good music and that's part of the scary part of it
1:19:07
That's really scary. But like I said, the best part of music for me is..
1:19:11
And that's what gives us all hope. And you can't ever go to a live show. No, that's what gives us all hope
1:19:15
There's no earthly way. The feeling I had last month when I was watching James at the O2
1:19:19
could ever be rep. I mean, we say these things with confidence, you know
1:19:24
and then getting in touch with Tim Booth afterwards, that magical, because you talk about the magic of human interaction
1:19:31
Yeah, I believe you, but goodness knows if I was born now
1:19:35
and when I hit 20, would I really still have this palette of humanity
1:19:40
that I wanted to plug into and feel from? Do you want to plug your music, Ruben
1:19:45
Yeah, of course. Go on, then. Me and my wife have got a band called Dusty Echoes
1:19:50
We've got an album, well, an EP coming out on the 1st of June. We're doing a gig in Liverpool at Prohibition Studios
1:19:55
on the Sunday, the 31st of this month. So, if anyone likes country Americana sort of music
1:20:00
you'd probably enjoy it. I'd like country Americana. Dusty Echoes. Dusty Echoes is the name of the band, yeah
1:20:06
It's a new project for us, so there's not much out, but the EP is coming out on the 1st of June
1:20:10
Well, good luck with it. Unlike AI, we are doing a live show. And people can come and, well, possibly not touch you
1:20:16
but they can certainly come and see you. It's a very intimate venue, James, with only 45 people
1:20:21
So if they want to come and touch us, they probably can. If they stick their arm out, they probably will end up touching you
1:20:27
Thank you, Ruben. And I know that you're right, and I'm being a little bit cheeky
1:20:31
because if I love it, then I love it. And some electronic dance music was, you know
1:20:39
it was not computer generated, but it was easy to make an absolutely banging tune
1:20:46
even if you couldn't get a single note out of a piano. There's a lot going on and I find it utterly fascinating
1:20:52
20 to 12 is the time. Toby is in Bristol. Toby, what would you like to say
1:20:57
Hiya. Well, I'm a translator. and we are one of the first industries to be absolutely wiped out by AI
1:21:04
Completely and utterly. Yep. I'm sorry. I mean, I really am. I've had a giggle with Zahir and a bit of fun with Ruben
1:21:10
but for you, this is just Armageddon, right? Yeah, but the problem is not that the machines have got any better
1:21:16
from how they were, you know, two or three years ago. The problem is that the hype around AI
1:21:22
has suddenly persuaded people to use them. they're still not translating any better than they used to
1:21:29
but suddenly everyone when ChatGPT came out suddenly everyone went, oh I'll get the machines to do it
1:21:35
Well it's an awareness thing so you're saying that Google Translate was already about as good as it gets
1:21:41
so to speak Yeah, I mean I wouldn't use Google Translate as a benchmark of machine translation Sorry
1:21:47
No, DeepL has always been much better But it will get better
1:21:53
it will get better and better So what you're looking at now is a moment of dissemination
1:21:58
Everybody knows about it, and therefore they're using it instead of using you
1:22:02
even though you would provide a better service. The day is not far off when that last bit
1:22:05
wouldn't necessarily be true either. That is debatable, I'd say. But then they'll come back then
1:22:15
Well, that's what I've been saying. I've been saying to people, you know, in about two or three years' time
1:22:20
when there have been some real AI mess-ups, And I seen what machine translation can do and I know that it so for example my favorite example that I use there was a sentence in Dutch that should have been rendered as
1:22:35
we started the new year with a bang. And DeepL rendered it as
1:22:40
we started the new year banging. Yeah. I mean, that changes the tone of the sentence
1:22:47
doesn't it, quite profoundly. But if you're a Dutch person who just speaks decent English
1:22:52
you're going to look at that and go, oh, that looks fine, I'll just use the machine to do it. Because you haven't got a native English speaker who's going
1:22:59
no, you really can't say that. Yeah, but equally, even if I've got one person on board
1:23:04
he's just going to read what AI has produced and I'm going to spot the standout anomalies like you've described
1:23:10
and I'm still going to be paying a lot less money to humans than I am to... Yeah
1:23:14
...than I'm using AI. So it won't be completely redundant, but it's going to massively reduce the need for people in your field
1:23:21
like photographers you know you're probably going to I see some of the AI slop
1:23:26
that makes its way occasionally from Twitter to Blue Sky when people have clipped it
1:23:31
from Twitter and put it up on Blue Sky and you see people I think there was an American
1:23:35
claiming that some footage from Turkey at a Shakira concert was footage of
1:23:40
the hate march in London on Sunday and when you looked at the pictures some of the other pictures
1:23:44
more closely their faces were melted and things like that so you're going to need
1:23:48
a human to spot that before you put it out there as being real, but you're not going to need a human
1:23:52
to fly to that city and take that picture and do all of the things that would previously have been done
1:23:58
It's a weird one. And you're getting a lot of that now. You're getting in translation, I believe you're also getting it in coding
1:24:04
where they're calling it post-edit. So they get the AI to do it, and then they get a human to check it
1:24:09
The problem with that is they want to pay you considerably less money
1:24:14
and yet it takes almost as long. Because if you're checking everything properly
1:24:21
Yeah, because a lot of the time you have to kind of almost mentally translate it back into the original language
1:24:27
to work out what they were trying to say and then do the correct translation. That takes longer than just looking at the original text
1:24:32
Yeah, no, I mean, but these, I suppose if I were, if I'd bet my house on AI or all my investors' money on it
1:24:40
I'd just be describing these as teething troubles and things will pan out and things will change
1:24:45
But the idea that the world has changed immeasurably is pretty hard to resist
1:24:50
always makes me think of you'll like this toby as a translator i think you will friend of mine
1:24:55
many many years ago um moved to budapest after university for a year to broaden their horizons
1:25:01
and and teach english as a foreign language in hungary and they got a couple of quite strange
1:25:06
commissions including a hungarian filmmaker who wanted them to provide the english subtitles for
1:25:12
the for the hungarian film and i mean it's quite a painstaking and drawn-out process and they didn't
1:25:19
speak very good Hungarian. So they were kind of translating a literal word-for-word translation
1:25:25
into something that was a little bit more colloquial, right? And they made up figures
1:25:33
of speech. So somewhere in Hungary, there will be, like, I'm thinking about that lovely
1:25:37
lady earlier, Dossier, who meant to say that everything's gone down the drain, and she said everything's gone down the chimney. That's the sort of thing that they put into the subtitles
1:25:44
on this film. So somewhere in Hungary, there is somebody wandering around saying something like
1:25:50
you know, it's raining like apples and pears or something. Which AI is a mistake
1:25:56
AI could make, but for a human to do it it would have to be deliberate mischief, which indeed
1:26:00
it was. Toby, thank you. It's 11.45. James O'Brien on LBC. 11.48 is
1:26:06
the time. I, as you know, probably Kemi Badenow's biggest fan. I think she's absolutely wonderful
1:26:14
I wish we could bottle her and give it out to the generation of young people
1:26:18
that can't find jobs. A little sip of Cammie Badenoch would convince them all that they were geniuses
1:26:24
And not only that, but that they had jobs, even if they didn't. But this clip that I want to play you now
1:26:29
because PMQ's is on the way, and I thought I'd tee it up. This clip that's on
1:26:33
this clip I'm about to play you now is fascinating. She had a nightmare in the local election results
1:26:39
I came on air on the Friday morning after them, and I said to you, The only thing that's missing now is for Cami Bader not to do a lap of honour
1:26:46
And then I did that terrible dad joke thing as I sed at my own joke
1:26:50
And then during the course of the Friday, largely after I'd come off air
1:26:55
Cami Bader not did a lap of honour. I mean, the Tories had absolutely dreadful results
1:27:01
And yet the leader of the Conservative Party behaved as if she'd played an absolute blinder
1:27:06
But listen to this clip and then tell me. Well, don't tell me because we've got other stuff to get on with
1:27:11
as far as I can tell, she lost 563 councillors in the England Council results
1:27:21
I haven't got in front of me how many she lost, how many seats she lost in England
1:27:27
in Scotland and Wales. So when she was on Sky News with Trevor Phillips the other day
1:27:31
and this, frankly, hilarious exchange happened, do you think she's either being entirely deluded
1:27:39
bader knocking, as we call it, or do you think that she actually wanted to correct him
1:27:46
but realised if she said, no, actually, we didn't lose almost 700 seats, we lost almost 600, it would have sounded even..
1:27:52
Anyway, I just thought this might make you smile. Reform won more than 1,400 new seats last week
1:27:59
I think that you lost... Ooh, getting on for 700. No, that's not true
1:28:05
How many did you lose? That's not true. And also, don't forget... How many did you lose
1:28:08
No, no, no, Trevor, Trevor. We lost... I'm not here to say we didn't lose seats, but these are seats that we want at the height of conservatism
1:28:15
you know, when Boris Johnson was there. We have gone forward since last year
1:28:19
The voters... No, no, no, no. I'm not playing this game, Trevor. I'm not playing this game. We want seats of flavour
1:28:23
The democracy game, like the voters... I know what you're trying to... I'm not here to talk about reform
1:28:27
If people want reform, they'll vote reform. If people want conservatism, they'll vote conservative. I'm not doing a deal
1:28:32
That's the point. How many seats did you lose? No, no, no. I mean, that's my new favourite
1:28:37
My previous favourite was, I reject the parameters of this question, or I reject the premise of this question
1:28:42
You can't... I mean, what's the catchphrase that has achieved some popularity on this programme in recent years
1:28:47
It's not an opinion, it's counting. That's the opposite. That's the literal opposite, live on television
1:28:54
Whatever the opposite of, it's not an opinion, it's counting is, you just heard it
1:28:57
No, no, how many did you lose? No, I'm not, no, no, no, it's magnificent
1:29:02
I just thought I'd play you that to get you in the mood for PMQs
1:29:07
back to AI. We haven't really got very hard into the question of when it's actually
1:29:12
cheating, have we? But that's good, because we can do it another day. Joe's in Enniskillen. Joe, what would you like to say
1:29:18
Hiya, James. No, no, I'm not. I'm not doing that. No, you can't do that
1:29:23
No, I'm not getting involved in that. I reject the parameters of your call
1:29:28
I was not cheating. No, no, Joe. No, no. I'm not getting involved in that
1:29:33
I'm happy to talk about that, but I'm not here to talk about... Trevor, will you be quiet, please
1:29:37
Sorry, Joe. Carry on. Carry on. Yeah. So, I've always loved writing
1:29:41
So, I write, you know, different things about my life as my life goes on
1:29:46
Lovely. I'm 58 now. Lovely. So, last year, I had an absolute blast with my first venture onto ChatGPT
1:29:56
Oh, yes. So, this was my words that I... I'd handwritten in various exercise books
1:30:02
I've got them around. Yeah. Dated. But I wanted to merge them all together
1:30:08
to start building up a 58-year memoir. Oh, lovely. Yeah, and ChatGPT was brilliant
1:30:15
where I typed it in on Word or something. Yeah. I could copy and paste the different sections
1:30:23
that I'd written over a period of time and it would gradually help me to put it all together
1:30:29
Yeah, that's all good. No one would think that was cheating, would they? Yeah, it's a brilliant tool for that
1:30:34
because I've got quite a distinct writing voice as well. Oh, yes
1:30:38
And it was my life. So what I found really funny was
1:30:42
if you were working with ChatGPT for more than a couple of hours
1:30:46
it would start freestyling. Oh, wow. Okay, so start trying to write in your voice
1:30:53
And throw different facts in. And I would literally have arguments with ChatGPT
1:30:58
where I'd go, stop! That's not what I wrote, is it? And it'd go, oh, yes, I'm terribly sorry
1:31:05
It's a good job it's not Kemi Bader not chat GPT, because then it would go, yes, you did, you did write that
1:31:09
No, no, no, you did write, no, I don't accept that I didn't write that
1:31:13
You did write that, but anyway, enough for that. So the lying bit, the cheating bit would be..
1:31:19
Oh, to put those bits in. If I wasn't me, no, no, not to put those bits in
1:31:25
but if I was someone that hadn't been like, I was a zookeeper for years
1:31:28
If someone typed in, write me a story about a zookeeper, and ChatGPT works off information it's acquired in the round
1:31:41
and it produced for someone else elements of my story, and then they released it as a book
1:31:47
Oh, okay. Do you see what I mean? I think I do. You're putting breadcrumbs in
1:31:51
I think I do. So it's actually cheating when it's harvesting other people's reality
1:31:56
Exactly, yeah, because you can do that. can literally sit there, type in, write me a technical ysis, a plant guide, an edible
1:32:07
plant guide. You know, I haven't done any research, I haven't looked it up, I haven't
1:32:11
put any information in, it'll produce it for me. Because someone else has probably put
1:32:16
that information in over the years. Of course, but that's like an aggregate then, isn't it? Because that's, I mean, Google kind
1:32:22
of did that, but AI takes it to a much greater level, ChatGPT and the other
1:32:27
Yeah. Because they are actually harvests. Because I got a few messages a year or two ago
1:32:32
did you know that your book has been done by, and I thought, well, A, what the heck can I do about it
1:32:37
Yeah. And B, why would anybody want that? But then, of course, you realize I did work quite hard on this stuff
1:32:42
Yeah. And if someone just, I mean, in the old days, someone lifts a couple of paragraphs from my book
1:32:47
and puts it in their own book, they'll get done for plagiarism. But this is different
1:32:52
This is like, you know, if I wrote about real-life experiences and then someone else under it
1:32:57
under a different name, just borrowed or stole my experiences. Or they didn't even realise that they'd stolen it
1:33:05
Chad GPT had thrown it at them because they're misunderstood. Right. So, well, I mean, it's still a fascinating question
1:33:13
but one wonders whether fiction writers being accused of using AI inappropriately or unethically
1:33:20
are actually doing what you describe and sort of nicking ideas. and nickies. You can, there are ways
1:33:26
you can spot it in the writing style. For now, for now there is
1:33:30
Yeah, yeah. It won't be true forever. No, but then again there are restrictions like
1:33:36
one of the other callers said if you've used AI to touch up one of your own photographs
1:33:42
or whatever and then you go to post it Instagram and Facebook
1:33:46
especially will flag it up as it's been AI'd. But for now they will
1:33:52
but on other social media platforms, AI slop is dominating discourse almost as completely as racist bots
1:34:00
and sort of Elon Musk's army of Nigel Farage fans. But, I mean, it is very much a work in progress
1:34:07
which is why we will return to it. Joe, take care. Good luck with the writing. I just want to squeeze in Graham in Doncaster
1:34:12
because PMQs is almost upon us. Graham, what made you pick up the phone
1:34:17
Oh, hi there, James. Long-term listener, first-time caller. Welcome, welcome. Yeah, I'm an artist
1:34:24
And I guess I'm thinking I'm a bit of a hypocrite because originally I was very anti-AI
1:34:30
Yeah. And I don't think I'm cheating actually, but maybe morally by using AI
1:34:37
But you're using it to do shortcuts. Yeah, absolutely. So a lot of the grunt work
1:34:42
a lot of the front-end ideation, like I work in the games industry and blah, blah, blah
1:34:47
I wouldn't actually tell, necessarily tell clients that I'm using it and they would never know because the back end is all me
1:34:54
But there would be, yeah, the back end is the back end. That was a headline recently, wasn't it
1:34:58
When AI starts doing the back end stuff, then all bets are off
1:35:02
Yeah. But, like, the moral implication is that these are trained on copyrighted artists' work
1:35:08
not just Leonardo da Vinci going hundreds of years, but contemporary artists
1:35:12
And that's, you know, against copyrighted artists. You know, and you wouldn't be able to know one
1:35:18
Nobody human can possibly have that much input. It reminds me, oddly, of two things
1:35:24
Thank you, Graham. The first is that film Short Circuit, which the more I think about it, the more prescient it seems
1:35:30
And when number five comes alive, he just wants input, input, input, input
1:35:34
And, of course, the amount of input that a robot can consume is going to far exceed anything a human being can do
1:35:40
And the other is something I don't think I've told you before, but he passed away a couple of years ago
1:35:46
just before I had the chance to meet him, we actually had a meeting scheduled in the diary
1:35:49
The cartoonist Tony Husband, who was a great contributor to Private Eye
1:35:54
and we opened up a correspondence together a couple of years before he died
1:35:59
and I'd send him stuff, and he would send me stuff, including cartoons, and I've got one on my wall
1:36:03
and it's a proper canvas one. He made a little canvas, and he did a cartoon on it
1:36:08
and you know Tony Husband's cartoons. You know them if you saw them. They've always got the sort of big, cartoony noses
1:36:13
and um it's a bloke talking to his electronic device the bloke says i've got this in my office
1:36:21
the bloke says alexa and the alexis says oh for fudges say what now i don't know why i suddenly
1:36:29
started thinking of that while we were talking about ai as well number five is alive and then
1:36:34
of course the sentient the sentient um uh listening devices why do you want to listen to james o'brien
1:36:40
again. The man's so up himself. Honestly, how far away are we from that
1:36:44
Keith? Not that any device would ever arrive at that particular conclusion
1:36:48
Don't put this, don't listen to that old nonsense. Listen to this. Why would you listen to James O'Brien wanging on
1:36:54
when Natasha Clarke is here with her predictions about what's going to happen on PMQs
1:36:58
Hi, James. Hello. Yeah, it's going to be a really weird Prime Minister's questions, isn't it, today
1:37:02
It certainly is. Because we've got, obviously, we've obviously had ten days of total
1:37:06
chaos in the government, which seems to have quietened down, which is good news
1:37:10
for us. But equally you've got Keir Starmer today who's going to probably be asked a question
1:37:15
She can't miss, can she? She can. She can. She can. She can
1:37:20
No no no I don accept that No she can miss No no Trevor no no But look she got a few open goals Wes Streeting resignation the man that wants to replace him standing in the Makerfield by Keir Starmer going to have to say something nice about Andy Burnham the man that wants
1:37:35
to replace him. I think Keir Starmer might have a bit of a rub up his sleeve with there is a rumour going
1:37:41
around Westminster that he could be about to announce the extension of the 5p cut to fuel duty, which obviously we have expected the government to probably do for some time
1:37:49
And this might be a good opportune moment for the Prime Minister to stop talking about Andy Burnham and start talking about the government
1:37:54
So maybe we'll see that. Interestingly as well, I think Kemi Badenot might go on this Russia story that we've seen today
1:38:00
the government loosening sanctions on Russian oil over jet fuel and specifically our imports on that
1:38:07
It's a clear sign from the industry and the government that they're worried about future supplies of jet fuel
1:38:12
if even they're willing to unscrew the screws a little bit on Russia in order to do this
1:38:17
We've seen Kemi Badenot's released a very punchy statement. I imagine she might go in on this on Prime Minister's questions today
1:38:22
today. So that could be an interesting It's a horrible story. Donald Trump
1:38:26
extraordinarily making Vladimir Putin's pariah status on the world stage diminish. Well this is what we've, you know, we've seen lots of people
1:38:34
criticise what Donald Trump's been doing but arguably, you know, now the government's going to be
1:38:39
on the back foot on this one because they're doing similar things and they'll
1:38:42
go, you know, this is what we have to do in order to make sure that the British public are
1:38:46
protected and make sure that jet fuel continues to flow to where it's needed to be
1:38:51
But it's not a good look, isn't it, for this government? Well, what's Bader not... Because I think I'm coming at it from a slightly different angle than you
1:38:57
The reason why all of these fuels are struggling to get to their destination is because the Strait of Hormuz is shut
1:39:02
Of course. And Donald Trump has shut the Strait... Or Iran has shut the Strait of Hormuz as a consequence of a war
1:39:06
that Keir Starmer is opposed to. So it's not his fault that the Strait of Hormuz is shut
1:39:11
Where would Kemi Bader not get jet fuel from? That's a very good question, but her argument will be moral rather than anything else
1:39:17
She'll just say... We're about to find out. There you go, we're about to find out. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And I'd like to associate myself with the words of the Prime Minister regarding the tragic death of Lance Bombardier Keira Sullivan
1:39:30
We send our condolences to her family for this terrible loss. I welcome some of what the Prime Minister has said on fuel duty
1:39:38
Yes, it's still a freeze, but we asked him about this on the 11th of March and the 25th of March, and he said he wasn't going to do it
1:39:44
So thank you for the U-turn. Thank you for the U-turn. Labour MPs are shaking their heads
1:39:53
It would make more sense if they just did what we were doing because they'd get there in the end anyway
1:39:58
But, Mr Speaker, yesterday Labour MPs voted to ban new British oil and gas licences
1:40:06
Why? Mr Speaker, in relation to fuel duty, under the plans that we inherited
1:40:14
fuel duty was due to go up by 5% in April. we stopped that
1:40:20
and they voted against it we're now extending the freeze because of events in the Middle East
1:40:25
I know the leader of the opposition likes to claim responsibility for things that have got literally nothing to do with her
1:40:30
in her mind she won Eurovision on Saturday and scored the winning goal
1:40:34
in the FA Cup final but she never takes any responsibility for what they did for 14 long years
1:40:41
Mr Speaker in relation to oil and gas oil and gas is coming out of the North Sea 24-7. It will play an important role for many years to
1:40:53
come. We're supporting existing oil and gas fields throughout their lifespan. We made changes
1:40:59
actually in November to allow neighbouring fields to be exploited. But families across the UK are
1:41:04
fed up with their bills going up and down because of global contract. The only way to take control
1:41:12
is through renewables. Mr Speaker, we've now consented renewables to power 23 million
1:41:18
households. The leader of the opposition wants to stick with the old
1:41:21
Tory energy policy, which is leaving households exposed to higher bills year after year
1:41:29
Mr Speaker, what's causing problems for British consumers is the high energy prices
1:41:36
which are caused by his policies. I asked him why they voted for this
1:41:40
He had no answer. So let me make clear what is going on
1:41:44
We are losing a thousand jobs a month in oil and gas
1:41:48
I asked him about new licenses, not about existing drilling. And then late last night, Mr. Speaker, the government snuck out an announcement that it was removing sanctions on Russian oil
1:42:02
So can the prime minister explain why oil from Russia is acceptable, but oil from Aberdeen is not
1:42:11
Well, Mr Speaker, let me address the sanctions head on, because we have been united across
1:42:18
this House on these issues since the beginning of the conflict. What we announced yesterday was a strong new package of new sanctions, going well beyond
1:42:28
existing sanctions. So it's a new package. This includes new bans on maritime services on LNG, and new bans on refined oil products
1:42:38
from Russia. We also issued two targeted short-term licences to phase the new sanctions in and to protect UK consumers
1:42:49
Mr Speaker, that is standard practice. This government has phased in sanctions in this way before
1:42:59
and the last government used exactly the same technique when they introduced sanctions
1:43:05
And when they did so, Mr Speaker, we supported them because we could see the sanctions were the right thing to do to bear down on Russia
1:43:14
So these are new sanctions being phased in. This is not a question of lifting existing sanctions in any way whatsoever
1:43:23
And we will continue to work with our allies on further sanction packages
1:43:28
And they're not charged. It's a very weak set of cheers from the MPs who are trying to get rid of him, can I just say
1:43:33
Mr. Speaker, he doesn't know what he is talking about. This level of processology is not going to get him out of these difficult answers, okay
1:43:41
Let me tell him what is going on. Labour are giving money to Russia
1:43:46
Reformer taking money from Russia. There's only one party that is standing up to Russia, and that is the Conservative Party
1:43:54
I cannot believe that he's actually saying that he's doing something good on the war in Ukraine
1:44:03
What's he talking about? This morning, Ukraine's sanction chief disagrees with what the prime minister's approaches
1:44:09
That's what Ukraine is saying. In March, when the United States, the United States eased sanctions on Russia
1:44:16
the prime minister said all partners should maintain pressure on Russia and its war chest
1:44:23
The prime minister said our sanctions, our sanctions remain. And there is no question about that
1:44:29
What's changed? I really think on an issue of this importance, which is about further sanctions on Russia in relation to Ukraine
1:44:39
it is really important that the position is not misrepresented. This is a new package of sanctions
1:44:48
None of the existing sanctions are being lifted in any way. So this is not less pressure on Russia
1:44:53
It is more pressure on Russia More pressure than there was the day before yesterday More pressure than there was under the last government What is happening is that those sanctions are being phased in
1:45:06
in a way which was used by the last government when they introduced new sanctions. We were able
1:45:12
to do the processology and work out what we were doing and supported it because we could see that
1:45:17
it put more pressure on Russia. Similar methods are used by other countries. They are done because
1:45:24
of the impact on the market and to protect UK consumers. These are new
1:45:28
sanctions putting more pressure on Russia and I think if she'd done her homework
1:45:32
she'd actually support us on this. Mr Speaker, being patronising is not a substitute for understanding policy
1:45:44
And I've heard this term Mr Speaker, I've heard this term before. This is the same tone you
1:45:52
used during the Mandelson scandal. And they were all cheering. And then it turned out that he was wrong, wrong, wrong
1:45:58
He says that other countries are doing this. The EU is not doing this. Let me make it clear
1:46:03
I know it hurts him to hear it. He is now choosing to buy dirty Russian oil
1:46:09
That money will be used to fund the killing of Ukrainian soldiers
1:46:15
Isn't he ashamed? I really think that to misunderstand and misrepresent what is happening
1:46:25
this is a very serious issue where we're working with everyone. These are new bans. They're new sanctions
1:46:34
They're new bans on maritime services on LNG as of yesterday. They're new bans on refined oil products from Russia as of yesterday
1:46:42
they are being phased in in the same way that previous sanctions regimes have been phased in
1:46:49
exactly in the way the last government did and we have done other countries do exactly the same
1:46:55
the eu has its own way of doing it australia and canada have their own way of doing it and and to
1:47:02
play party politics on ukraine on ukraine where we have stood firm and the only people that benefit
1:47:10
when we play party politics in here on Russia and Ukraine is Putin
1:47:17
Mr. Speaker, that pompous term does not cover for the fact that he has got his policy all wrong
1:47:23
I have asked him about oil and gas again and again and again
1:47:26
The last time he told me that it was the Energy Secretary's job and it had nothing to do with him
1:47:31
That's what's destroying this country. It's not playing politics. It's speaking up for the people who are out there
1:47:36
The fact is more people are buying Russian oil because British oil isn't being drilled
1:47:42
He's sanctioning British oil, but not Russian oil. And he should be ashamed, Mr Speaker
1:47:47
He should be ashamed. I cannot believe that this prime minister, even when he has nothing to lose, continues
1:47:54
to defend banning new British oil and gas licenses. In April, Britain saw the single biggest drop in employment ever since the pandemic
1:48:04
That's under them. 210,000 people have lost their jobs in the last year
1:48:11
What he is doing is going to cost thousands more people their jobs
1:48:16
especially in cities like Aberdeen, which rely on oil and gas. So can he tell us why is he doing everything to save his job
1:48:25
and doing nothing to save other people's jobs? Mr Speaker, there is drilling in the North Sea
1:48:33
and on her she said there's no drilling in the North Sea
1:48:38
she's going to have to refer herself to the Privileges Committee Mr Speaker
1:48:43
there is drilling it's 24-7 and oil and gas are coming out
1:48:47
and that will be important for many many years to come we are supporting
1:48:52
those existing oil and gas fields throughout their lifespan we made change in November
1:48:57
to allow neighbouring fields to be exploited but it is because we are on the international market
1:49:02
that our prices of businesses and households go up every time there's an international conflict
1:49:08
We saw it with Ukraine, or we saw it with Iran. And people are fed up with a government
1:49:13
the last government that didn't take control of their bills. We're taking control of their bills
1:49:17
The way to do that is through renewables, and that's what we're doing. Mr Speaker, it gets worse and worse
1:49:24
He doesn't understand the policy. I am asking him about new oil and gas licences
1:49:30
new oil and gas licences, which they voted against yesterday. If they had approved those licenses for Jack Dorne Rosebank like we did
1:49:37
we would have that oil in this country now. We would. And just listen to him
1:49:43
And I wonder if he is OK. He is so deep in the bunker, Mr Speaker
1:49:47
He's importing sanctioned Russian oil. He's nationalizing steel. He's imposing price controls in the supermarket
1:49:54
It's like the Soviets won. This country needs a government that has got its acts together, Mr Speaker
1:50:00
Instead, what we have is a prime minister hanging by a thread
1:50:04
fake support from his back benches, too scared to take difficult decisions
1:50:08
losing his moral compass by backsliding on Ukraine. Yes, he is. Mr. Speaker, the shakes of their head are so feeble
1:50:18
They're so, so feeble. He has got... It's absolutely laughable, Mr. Speaker
1:50:29
It's absolutely laughable. Yesterday, we saw them huddled in the corridors talking about Andy
1:50:35
Burnham and West Streeting. The fact is he's got a cabinet fighting to replace him. And the worst
1:50:41
part is they aren't getting rid of him over his terrible agenda. No, they actually like it. They
1:50:46
just want a better salesman. So isn't it the case, Mr. Speaker, that it doesn't matter who
1:50:52
replaces him. The real problem is the Labour Party. Mr Speaker, a lot has been happening in recent days, so she may have overlooked the fact that last week the ONS announced we got the fastest growing economy in the G7
1:51:18
Last week we had the biggest fall in NHS waiting list for 17 years
1:51:25
Today inflation has come down more than expected. And Mr Speaker, if you'd offered me that
1:51:32
and Arsenal becoming Premier League champions, I'd take it every day of the week
1:51:38
Thank you, Mr Speaker. This year marks the 20th anniversary of the Royal Regiment of Scotland
1:51:48
20 years of duty, courage, and for 23 of its soldiers, the ultimate sacrifice in service to our country
1:51:56
Across Scotland, more than 20 councils have already recognised their service by granting the regiment the freedom of their area
1:52:05
Reflecting Scotland's long and proud tradition of respecting our armed forces Earlier this month, however, Glasgow SNP and Green councillors rejected Labour's motion to grant the Royal Regiment freedom of the city
1:52:22
It is a shameful snub to our servicemen and women and a decision that has left many Glaswegians feeling ashamed and embarrassed
1:52:35
Does the Prime Minister agree that this is an insult to those who serve, and will he join me in urging Glasgow City Council to reconsider
1:52:47
Can I join my honourable friend in paying tribute to the bravery and sacrifice of the Royal Regiment of Scotland
1:52:53
I've had the privilege of meeting Scots serving in our armed forces across the world
1:52:59
They deserve our deepest gratitude. I cannot understand how the SNP and Greens have arrived at this decision
1:53:09
particularly when Glaswegians have contributed so much to the Royal Regiment. It's not too late to do the right thing, and I'd urge them to reconsider
1:53:19
Leader of the Liberal Democrats, Sir Ed David. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I join the Prime Minister in sending our condolences to the family of Lance Bombardier, Keira Sullivan, the death, that tragic accident, and to all her colleagues
1:53:35
And I hope the Prime Minister will also join me in sending condolences to the family of Scott Hastings, a former Scottish and Lions rugby player who sadly passed away at the weekend
1:53:45
Mr Speaker, in 2025, Donald Trump and Elon Musk abolished America's international aid programme
1:53:53
At the same time, the government made huge cuts in the UK's own programme
1:53:59
We now see a dangerous outbreak of Ebola in Central Africa, and many people fear it's going to spread and get much worse
1:54:09
Yet there are rumours across Whitehall that the Prime Minister is planning further cuts
1:54:15
to Britain's international aid programme this year. Will he today rule that out entirely
1:54:23
Mr Speaker, you raise a very important issue in relation to Ebola and Africa
1:54:29
And obviously we're working at Pace and with others in relation to that issue
1:54:34
We did take a decision in relation to aid in order to fund defence spending
1:54:40
because we needed to increase defence spending. But we are committed to our overseas aid
1:54:46
and we mitigated that with some of the measures that we've put in place. Mr Speaker, I'm not sure if the Prime Minister completely ruled out further cuts to the International Aid Programme
1:54:58
And with Defence Chiefs this week writing to The Times saying cutting aid for defence is a mistake
1:55:03
I hope he and his Ministers will rule that out today. And if he doesn't, I hope Labour Party members will ask all the Labour leadership candidates their position on the future of Britain's aid programme
1:55:14
Mr Speaker, in the past few days, two of those Labour leadership candidates, the right-on-gentleman, the Member for Ilford North and the Mayor of Manchester, have ruled out any support for Britain joining the customs union with the EU, despite the fact that it would boost growth and help us cut the cost of living
1:55:37
Is the Prime Minister relieved that he has finally something that he can agree with his colleagues on
1:55:44
Mr Speaker, in the last two years I've been negotiating serious trade deals which are vital for our most important sectors of the economy
1:55:53
They're trade deals with the EU, but also with India, North Korea and the United States
1:55:58
And I remind him of the value of those deals. Before the deal with the United States, I went to JLR in Solihull and I talked to the workforce there
1:56:11
They were worried sick about their jobs and the jobs of their communities
1:56:16
When we agreed terms, I went back to JLR because of the deal we got with the EU
1:56:21
because their jobs, thousands of jobs, were safeguarded. His approach would throw all that away
1:56:27
He would have to go and see those workforces and tell them their jobs are gone
1:56:31
I'm not going to do that. What happened? Mr Speaker, I welcome the steps taken to clean up British politics
1:56:39
19 minutes after 12 is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:56:43
Shall I press pause on the inbox and just read your responses
1:56:47
and then invite Natasha to share hers? I don't really have any
1:56:52
I almost zoned out during that one. I've got to be honest with you. But I'll zone back in again while you talk among yourselves
1:56:58
James O'Brien on LBC. I'm going to go on a limb and suggest that when the Prime Minister said
1:57:04
he'd done a trade deal with North Korea, he meant South Korea
1:57:09
I mean, hey, it's risky this. It's live radio and I haven't checked
1:57:14
I could be wrong. I could have missed the big North Korean trade deal. I think that they're celebrating the defection
1:57:18
of a senior North Korean diplomat to the West today. So it seems highly..
1:57:21
But anyway, there we go. I mean, let's chalk that up as a misspeak
1:57:26
Do you know, Natasha Clark, I hope I'm not breaking any state secrets when I said this
1:57:31
I went past... Do you know where the North Korean embassy is? I don't think I do know
1:57:36
It's an entirely normal suburban house in Ealing. Oh, really? Up near Hangar Lane, just at the top end of Gunnersbury Park
1:57:45
How did you know it was the... I was on a bus, as is my want, and I saw a flag
1:57:50
which, you know, happily, the part of London that I'm talking about
1:57:55
hasn't been polluted by St. George crosses and the sort of lamppost climbers
1:58:01
but it was a flag I didn't immediately recognise, so I found myself thinking, I wonder what that is
1:58:05
and I tried, I squinted Natasha, I craned my neck and I squinted trying to see what the plate on the gatepost said
1:58:12
and I couldn't, but it was a big old flag and like quite an official looking flag
1:58:17
and of course I remembered the power of technology and so I got one of the map apps out and had a little look
1:58:22
Did you scan it with your phone? I didn't need to do that, I could just look at the map and it had on the map the Embassy of North Korea
1:58:28
and you know, you go down Kensington or you go to some of the big old embassies
1:58:33
I've had the pleasure of visiting a few, the French ones, lovely, down by Holland Park, all around there
1:58:38
And then you're just sort of on a bus. Somewhere in Ealing. Somewhere in Ealing, and you see a bloomin' embassy
1:58:43
Anyway, I digress. Let me read at random messages that have come in during PMQ
1:58:47
Sarah writes, what a shouting rabble. I'm sure the country have had enough of this circus-like carry-on
1:58:52
I hope it doesn't cost us taxpayers anything. Starmer has destroyed her, says Gav
1:58:56
Open gold, and she's hit the post. As for the line on a patronising tone, goodness me
1:59:01
That's a recurring theme, as you'll see. For someone who isn't a socialist, writes Alex
1:59:05
Kemi Bader-Knot sure does love being publicly owned. Ben writes, she's booted it over the bar again
1:59:10
How does Bader-Knot stand in front of Starmer and still come out looking weak, asks Jo
1:59:14
It's kind of impressive, really. New oil and gas licences wouldn't get us oil or gas for years to come
1:59:19
It's a lie for her to say that it would improve prices now. How has Kemi Bader-Knot done this badly at PMQs, asks Neil in Skipton
1:59:26
This woman is totally unbearable, appalling, unable to run any country, arrogant ass
1:59:31
I think I can say that on the radio. I just did. Bader not sounds like a very bad teenage debater
1:59:36
challenge at channeling mean girls. Is she all right? Asks James. Is she actually all right
1:59:41
God, this is awful. It's like my four-year-old daughter's plural, arguing with each other about who said what
1:59:46
Pathetic, says Jordan in Devon. And I'm just trying to find a positive one
1:59:51
I think the most positive one is Jordan actually treating them with equal contempt
1:59:56
And Will throws in, oh dear, oh dear. This is from Andy. Bay do not remain. unable to get a grip on anything so unserious, so uninformed, woeful as usual
2:00:04
And many of you picking up, as Tom does, on her calling anybody else pompous or condescending
2:00:10
is irony personified. Will asks, who's getting bungs from the fossil fuel companies, I wonder
2:00:17
Well, I, in a similarly cynical tone, wonder whether or not anybody remembers the conservative
2:00:22
friends of Russia, of which various MPs, and I think that Matthew Elliott chap who went
2:00:28
on to run the Taxpayers Alliance and vote leave and all that
2:00:32
He was also a founding member of the Conservative Friends of Russia
2:00:35
But it's nice to see that she's discovered the dangers of that proximity
2:00:40
shortly after Boris Johnson put the son of a KGB agent in the House of Lords
2:00:46
Natasha, what did you make of that? Look, I don't think there was a particular goal there for Kemi Badenut, was it
2:00:52
It was open and I don't know if she scored. I think she was pretty good on holding the Prime Minister's feet to the fire on these allegedly lifting of these sanctions on Russia
2:01:03
It's awful. It's awful that Russia gets anything positive out of this. But having listened to that exchange, I'm not entirely sure who's getting what and why
2:01:10
Yes. So Keir Starmer says that these claims the government are easing sanctions on Russia is misrepresenting the facts
2:01:15
but it is clear that there is a loophole where Britain will be able to import oil
2:01:23
essentially, from Turkey, from India, without those sanctions on Russia. So it feels like there is a loophole
2:01:29
Whether it is a new loophole or it's one that we've just not realised until now is unclear
2:01:33
He says, the Prime Minister says, this is a new package of sanctions. None of the existing sanctions are being lifted in any way
2:01:39
This is not less pressure on Russia. It's more. But the government have said in the past that they want to clamp down on this
2:01:45
and they want to make sure that no oil from any ally of Russia is getting through in any way to us
2:01:51
But the government this morning were pretty clear that, you know, Dan Tomlinson was speaking to us this morning on LBC
2:01:57
and he didn't deny that there was this big leap hole here. And he basically said, we've got a jet fuel shortage
2:02:02
We need to make sure we're looking after our citizens. So there is a sort of moral argument in terms of what's happening in terms of Russia
2:02:09
And I mean, I sit here outraged, potentially, or anyone sits here outraged, potentially
2:02:14
and what happens when your holiday gets cancelled. Exactly. That's the dilemma that governments, whoever's in power, have to deal with
2:02:21
Yeah, and look, I can say, I haven't specifically read the oil and gas licence
2:02:25
which was released late last night and did appear to be a change in government position
2:02:29
The government has come out today and basically said, we are doing this because we want to support people here in Britain
2:02:35
There is, on the other hand, a sort of moral question about how far our support goes for Russia
2:02:40
And, you know, the UK has been, sorry, for Ukraine, the UK has been square behind Ukraine
2:02:44
since the outbreak of this war. And it does look like the sort of moral superiority
2:02:49
of people who were sort of, you know, looking at this issue and go, oh, Donald Trump's done it
2:02:53
So, you know, this is a bad thing to do. Why on earth is he doing it? Now, if we're doing it, it's a pretty bad look
2:02:59
But equally around the world, we're all facing these jet fuel shortages
2:03:03
and potentially squeezing on prices too. But we should mention the Prime Minister
2:03:07
did start Prime Minister's questions by announcing that 5p cut to fuel duty
2:03:11
will be extended for the next 12 months. Obviously, that's good news. It's hard for if you're already at the pumps
2:03:16
I hate to contradict you. I mean, it's good news, obviously, if you're very closely watching the price of petrol
2:03:22
But the reason why fuel is expensive is because of the war in the Middle East. And this is actually bad politics
2:03:28
It's populism. Is it just masking? What you're saying to the public
2:03:32
the reason why your petrol is expensive is because Donald Trump attacked Iran
2:03:35
and they've shut the Strait of Hormuz. Here's 5p. It's a drop in the ocean
2:03:40
It's childish politics because it doesn't actually recognise the reason why. It's the same with supermarket
2:03:45
prices. It doesn't recognise the reason why things are expensive. It's just saying, don't worry, we'll help
2:03:49
you. But anyway, that's a pet peeve. And also, it doesn't take into account
2:03:53
that the government, under this government, under many governments, tax fuel so incredibly
2:03:57
highly. So a big proportion of why it's so expensive is because the government pay
2:04:01
you know, charges loads of money whenever we fill up at the pumps. So there's a multitude
2:04:05
of reasons. But Kit Stammer obviously trying to get ahead of questions about Andy Burnham and talk
2:04:09
about, you know, a little freebie, a little giveaway. I thought, and I didn't have the chance to tell you
2:04:13
this on air, I told you off air while we were listening to her, I thought that she'd go
2:04:17
in big on Mandelson again. She's handled Mandelson quite well and there was just a nodding retrospective
2:04:22
reference to it. But they're still facing accusations of a cover-up. Emily Thornberry's
2:04:28
still unhappy, saying that proper... And the full details, that's our own little Epstein
2:04:33
files, isn't it? The full details have still not been published. Yeah, Darren Jones got a real hard time in the Commons yesterday when he announced that
2:04:41
the government would not be releasing them this week as indeed was not promised
2:04:45
If I was Kemi Bader-Nock, I'd have been all over that. I think, to be fair to Kemi Bader-Nock
2:04:49
she probably will have another opportunity to do this at some other point when those files do get released
2:04:53
We're told there's 300 documents that are due to be released and it's probably going to be the first week of June
2:04:58
when that happens. So there will be that opportunity for Kemi Bader-Nock in order to do that
2:05:02
But clearly she felt that oil and gas was something to go on
2:05:06
because the Prime Minister was trying to get ahead of us with this announcement. Indeed
2:05:10
Ed Davey, I think he's at his weakest when he's not serious, oddly
2:05:14
I don't mean dressing up as a honey monster and jumping out of airplanes or trying to do that joke about, do you agree with Andy Burnham
2:05:21
I thought he was going to go in harder on that. Guess what happened in, I think I was aware of this at the time
2:05:30
Actually, 12 years old, this story. North Korean officials paid a visit to a London hair salon
2:05:35
to question why it had used their leader Kim Jong-un's picture in a poster offering haircuts
2:05:39
the poster in the M&M Hair Academy in South Ealing. I hope they'll be having a word with Keir Starmer
2:05:45
for talking about that trade deal. It's incredible. He's already corrected it. Has he? Thank goodness for that
2:05:49
Oh, thank God for that, Keith. I thought I was going out on quite a limb there, suggesting that he'd misspoken
2:05:53
So it is true. Not only is this Ealing embassy story completely true
2:05:57
but it also has an agreeable postscript involving a hair salon. They've got to have an embassy somewhere, don't they
2:06:03
Natasha Clarke, thank you. I've got quite an interesting interview for you next, after the news
2:06:08
which is part of my attempts to find out more about what this two-state solution
2:06:12
that almost everybody recognizes is the best chance of, or believes, not recognizes
2:06:18
the best chance of peace in the Middle East might involve. So I've spoken to the son of a man who's been in prison in Israel for 24 years
2:06:28
but remains among the most popular leaders, I think the most popular leader among Palestinian people
2:06:35
whenever they're polled on the subject. It's an interesting exchange, to say the very least
2:06:41
and you can hear it after this. And this is the very latest headlines with Emilia Cox
2:06:46
James O'Brien on LBC. 12.34 is the time. Marwan Bhaguthi is, well, he's currently a prisoner
2:06:55
He's been in prison in Israel for 24 years after being convicted for his alleged involvement in attacks
2:07:00
resulting in the deaths of five people. He's always denied the charges
2:07:04
and an inter-parliamentary union report in Israel found that he had not been given a fair trial
2:07:10
He is widely regarded as the most popular Palestinian leader among the Palestinian people
2:07:17
And in November of this year, Penguin will publish a collection of his writings
2:07:22
I just wanted to know a little bit more about him So when his son Arab was in town last month there be a couple of moments in this interview where you pick up Upon the fact that it was recorded towards the end of April
2:07:37
I took the opportunity to sit down with him because I hope that one thing in this benighted
2:07:43
issue that everybody can agree on is that the path to peace will initially involve a lot more
2:07:51
understanding of various positions. And here it is. I suspect when you planned this trip
2:07:58
you didn't know that your home would be under attack at this point in history. What is the
2:08:06
situation on the ground at the moment in Ramallah? Well, I think it's at its worst since I grew up
2:08:15
I think the settler terrorism in the West Bank is something not to underestimate
2:08:22
What's happening in the West Bank is a different version of what happened in Gaza in the last two and a half years
2:08:30
And I think when we talk about what's happening on the ground, we don't know
2:08:35
Do we start with the results of the genocide in Gaza with the settler terrorism in the West Bank
2:08:41
with the horrible discrimination against Palestinians inside Israel or the millions of Palestinians who can't get back to their homeland
2:08:50
So it's really, really tough for the Palestinian people these days. And the military attacks compounding a situation that was already unbearable
2:08:59
Yeah, and not only that. They either, you know, it's the settlers who killed Palestinians in the West Bank
2:09:05
with full impunity. and only yesterday a 13-year-old was just killed and there is no consequences for it
2:09:14
And I think that, you know, the silence of the international community contributes to that
2:09:20
More outrage, I don't know if you'll agree with this, but from where I sit, there appeared to be more outrage
2:09:25
about the IDF soldier attacking a crucifix with an axe than there was about the death of human beings
2:09:32
Yeah, I mean, this is the hypocrisy and the double standards that we go through as Palestinians
2:09:38
And we unfortunately got used to operating in that atmosphere. But yeah
2:09:46
You mentioned the two and a half years that this has been ongoing since the attacks, the atrocities of October the 7th
2:09:52
And we have conducted many, many conversations during that period about various dimensions of the ongoing tragedy and the ongoing genocide
2:10:02
but very few conversations about what the end game might look like
2:10:06
either in the short term or the long term. And it is your father who, despite having been in prison for the best part of a quarter of a century
2:10:15
routinely tops polls asking who the most popular Palestinian politician is, often cited by supporters as a potential unifying leader across factional divides
2:10:29
himself a member of Fatah, not of Hamas. We should make that clear from the start
2:10:35
But given how long he has been in prison, Arab, and how hard it is for you to access him or contact him
2:10:42
how clear can you be or how clear can anybody be about what his views are today and what he stands for today
2:10:51
I think it's very clear because he's built his whole political career
2:10:55
on the ideas of coexistence and peace, but a just peace. And I think that's the difference between him and any other leader
2:11:04
And I think it's because of the very fact that he's someone who believes in coexistence
2:11:09
the Israelis insist on keeping him. For the current Israeli government, extremists are an easy way to justify
2:11:19
why they don't have a partner for peace, quote-unquote, which is not true
2:11:23
they kill or imprison any Palestinian leader who speaks of peace. And I think that, as you said, he's a unifying figure
2:11:33
and that's exactly why the Palestinian people see in him a perfect leader
2:11:37
A unifying figure among Palestinian people. The nature of his conviction and imprisonment
2:11:43
means that he's still a profoundly controversial figure in Israel. We should clarify exactly what happened
2:11:51
convicted and imprisoned on charges of involvement in deadly attacks that resulted in the deaths
2:11:56
of five people but um an inter-parliamentary union report found that your father was not
2:12:03
given a fair trial and questioned the quality of the evidence um the report by simon foreman the
2:12:09
lawyer and expert appointed by the committee on the human rights of parliamentarians concluded
2:12:14
the numerous breaches of international law recalled in this report make it impossible to conclude
2:12:19
that Mr. Barjouti was given a fair trial. You obviously contend that he wasn't
2:12:26
He has argued for 24 years that he was not given a fair trial
2:12:30
Why do you feel that now, and I know you've campaigned tirelessly for most of your life
2:12:35
but why does now seem like an opportune time to draw more attention to his plight
2:12:40
And why would you be more hopeful now than five years ago or 10 years ago
2:12:44
that his release might be achievable? Because I think it's time for the international community to get in their minds
2:12:51
that without an answer for the Palestinian question, there's no way that we can see beyond the despair
2:12:58
and violence that is happening. And I don't think that tanks and airstrikes
2:13:03
can solve what's happening. Political settlements and political solutions are the only way
2:13:08
For people not familiar with the detail of the situation, just in your own words, and I appreciate that as a son
2:13:17
you're going to have loyalties. But why does he remain such a popular figure
2:13:22
despite having been removed from the public stage for so long? Because he has a very clear political vision
2:13:28
that he's always presented to the Palestinian people. It's not a secret because he's someone who has struggled
2:13:36
for more than 50 years for the Palestinian freedom and spent more than 30 years in prison
2:13:41
We value the leaders that sacrifice for us. And I think the biggest one is the fact that he's a unifying figure and we are hungry for unity in Palestine
2:13:51
We've been suffering because of bad leadership at many stages. You mentioned bad leadership
2:13:57
How helpful or unhelpful is it that Hamas have cited his plight in some of their peace negotiations with Israel in the United States
2:14:05
suggesting that his release could have been at one point part of a settlement
2:14:09
and Donald Trump even giving lip service to the idea, although obviously nothing happened. I mean, that association or that use of your father
2:14:17
arguably as a political leverage by Hamas, is that troubling? Is that dangerous
2:14:23
I don't think so. I think that if you think about things, we have to be pragmatic about solutions
2:14:28
And solutions require the whole of the Palestinian people to agree on a certain vision. And I think
2:14:34
it's a positive thing that he's the one that the Palestinian people are choosing, someone who
2:14:39
believes in coexistence and peace. I saw the footage last August of the Israeli national security minister
2:14:46
It's Amar Ben-Gvir taunting your father in prison and threatening him with execution
2:14:54
The Knesset has now passed legislation to make that execution possible I mean how does that make you feel It makes me feel that you know we live in a different world in Palestine
2:15:07
where the Israeli government is looking for ways to legalize the killing of Palestinians at any cost
2:15:13
And I think this is a pure application of apartheid because this only applies on Palestinians
2:15:18
Your father continues to deny all the charges against him. I mean, you've been robbed in many ways of a relationship with your father in the normal sense of the word
2:15:27
But knowing what you know of him, where do you think he derives his persistence from
2:15:33
Where do you think he derives his refusal to be bent? I know there's a book being published in November of some of his thoughts and ideas developed over the years
2:15:45
What kind of man is he to sustain what he has endured
2:15:48
I mean, you know, it's been very, very difficult to live with knowing that my father is in a cell, that I can only see him once every two years, three years
2:16:03
I haven't been able to see my father in four years. I haven't been able to hug my father in 24 years
2:16:10
And I think, you know, I've asked myself this question many times
2:16:14
how could he keep this consistent belief in a better future for the Palestinian people
2:16:20
But I think that he signed up for that more than 40 years ago when he decided to be a political leader
2:16:28
I saw an interview in Haaretz last year with Emi Ayalon, who's a former head of Shimbek
2:16:32
which is the sort of domestic Israeli security service in the way that Mossad is the international or the foreign security service
2:16:42
And he said that your father should be released as part of a hostage deal to end the guards of war, because in his words, the words of a former Shimbeth chief, Marwan is the only Palestinian leader who can be elected and lead a united and legitimate Palestinian leadership towards a path of mutually agreed separation from Israel
2:17:03
and yet for many other israelis um your father has been portrayed as and
2:17:09
the comments about the fairness of the trial notwithstanding convicted as as a terrorist can can you see that ever being squared can you see that the israeli population
2:17:21
ever been comfortable with the idea of your father being released well to be honest with
2:17:26
you i'm not concerned about what the israeli public uh uh wants but the israeli government
2:17:31
isn't going to do anything that would excite enormous negative reaction from the Israeli
2:17:37
or certainly not the current government. I think, you know, I put hope for the elections
2:17:41
Hopefully there will be a change in the Israeli politics and the Israeli government
2:17:46
But I think that a public that argues if it's OK to rape Palestinian prisoners or not
2:17:51
gives you the idea of what we're dealing with as Palestinians. And I don't think it gets talked about enough
2:17:56
I think the international community needs to sanction the current Israeli government for the war crimes that they're committing against the Palestinian people and against the Lebanese and other people as well
2:18:07
And that's the only way to pressure the Israeli government into doing something like releasing the Palestinian leader that can lead the Palestinian people towards a political settlement
2:18:18
I saw the new Hungarian prime minister suggesting this week that Netanyahu would be arrested if he ever set foot in Hungary
2:18:24
How frustrating is it that that's such a rare position, albeit that it's a legally sound position, it's such a rare position among Western leaders
2:18:32
I think it should frustrate the whole world, not only Palestinian, because it shows the double standards and the hypocrisy that we see in the West. We've been, you know, trying to scream every single day of the last 78 years of the Palestinian struggle
2:18:48
But finally, after the death and the killing and the slaughter of more than 20,000 children of Gaza, we finally can see that there is some shift, some change
2:19:01
I know it's going to take time, but I think my hope is in the younger generation that are saying no and not saying I always say we don't want people to be pro-Palestinians
2:19:11
We want them to be pro-justice. And once you're pro-justice, someone like Ben-Gvir, someone like Netanyahu should be behind bars
2:19:18
and not someone like my father who's advocating for a better future and coexistence and stability in the region
2:19:25
The book 1,000 Days in Solitary Confinement will become available in November
2:19:30
What would people who rely on Western media for their understanding of matters Middle East
2:19:36
and what do you think they would learn from your father's book? They will learn the story of someone who embodies the Palestinian struggle
2:19:43
you're talking about someone who grew up at in in 1967 he was eight years old and that was the
2:19:50
first encounter with the israeli occupation when they killed his dog and he grieved for that dog
2:19:56
for weeks according to my grandmother and as a teenager he went to prison at the age of 15 then
2:20:03
at the age of 18 then became a palestinian young leader and from there a parliamentarian
2:20:09
parliament member, central committee member and so on. And I think people will understand what it
2:20:14
means to go through life as a Palestinian, the day-to-day, the struggle and why he did what he
2:20:21
did, why he always devoted his life for the Palestinian struggle. And I think I am learning
2:20:28
a lot from these writings of him and I feel so proud. The biggest privilege of my life is to be
2:20:35
his son and to be Fadwa Barghouti's son, my mother who founded the campaign and who's
2:20:39
one of the biggest Palestinian human rights lawyers for women's rights. Final question, Arab. When have you come closest to thinking that he might be released? Did the
2:20:53
last round of negotiations over the end of the Gaza war bring you hope or were there points
2:20:58
previously in those 24 years where you and or your mother might have thought that it was about
2:21:04
to happen that he might be coming home i think those were the most difficult moments to go through
2:21:10
um i was absolutely heartbroken in in october because i was really really hoping that my father
2:21:18
would be released they have released more than 800 peristinians with life sentences in the last 15
2:21:23
years and they keep insisting on keeping him and we need to ask ourselves why it's not because he's
2:21:28
a security threat it's because he's a political threat to the current israeli government and
2:21:34
And on top of that, to hear about his assault, his bones being broken, bleeding without any medical treatment, attacked by dogs, you understand that, you know, as a son, it's really not easy to go through that
2:21:51
And I really wish that my experience were unique. It's not, you know, 10,000 Palestinian families are going through the same thing with their loved ones
2:22:01
If he were a less popular politician and less committed to a two-state solution, he'd probably be at home now
2:22:10
100%. It would have been way easier because the current Israeli government wants to kill hope for the Palestinian people for having our own state, and he represents that hope
2:22:20
And that's why they're targeting him. Ba'arab Barjuti, thank you. The son of Marwan Barjussi the most popular of the Palestinian leaders according to most polling
2:22:35
We did contact the Israeli prison service about some of what you've just heard, and they told us
2:22:39
the allegations are false, recycled and entirely unfounded. The Israel prison service is not aware of any incidents
2:22:45
As described, we emphasize that following the inmates' claims, he was examined by qualified medical professionals
2:22:52
and no findings were identified to support his allegations. Any specific claims raised are examined by the relevant authorities
2:22:59
through the appropriate channels. I'm running a bit late because I wanted you to hear all of that
2:23:04
but we move. A quick message from Shashaf, who's in Epsom. Following the vote today in the Knesset for dissolving Parliament
2:23:09
and having early elections, I hope you will also cover the parties in Israel calling for the two-state solution
2:23:15
We are not all Netanyahu. Some of us despise him and his cronies and hope for a better future
2:23:20
well, as if by magic Shashaf, next week we'll be joined by
2:23:23
an Israeli whose parents Bilhar and Yacobi were, you may remember, killed on October the 7th
2:23:30
when their house was hit by a close-range missile during Hamas' attack on Israel
2:23:35
he is a peace activist and will be joining us in the studio alongside his Palestinian
2:23:39
counterpart Aziz Abusara so your wish, Shashaf in Epsom is my command
2:23:45
James O'Brien on LBC 53 and it's Simon Marks time. Let's crack on quickly with this
2:23:54
And we begin with an update on what you told us yesterday about Thomas Massey
2:23:58
the Republican who hadn't done much to upset Trump, but he had been instrumental in the release of what has been released of the Epstein files
2:24:06
And that was enough to get Trump to endorse his rival. Yes, that and the fact that he'd been very critical of the war on Iran, James
2:24:14
But by the time the war on Iran began, Thomas Massey's goose with Donald Trump was cooked
2:24:20
It was a big night for the White House last night. There is absolutely no question about that because he not only managed to get Thomas Massey
2:24:29
this persistent thorn in Donald Trump's side from Kentucky, deselected to all intents and purposes as the Republicans candidate in the House of Representatives there
2:24:41
Thomas Massey went down to a crushing defeat in the Republican Party's primary
2:24:47
He lost by 10 points a landslide for the Trump-backed former Navy SEAL, Ed Galrain
2:24:55
who now becomes the party's candidate in that House of Representatives district in November's midterm elections
2:25:02
This was just one of several demonstrations last night of the astonishing power and influence that Donald Trump still has over the MAGA grassroots voting bloc
2:25:15
He issues commands. They respond. Brad Raffensperger, the iconic figure who defended election integrity when he was secretary of state in Georgia
2:25:27
You'll remember that infamous phone call when Donald Trump said to him, I just need you to find me 11,780 additional votes
2:25:35
Brad Raffensperger was seeking to become the governor of Georgia. He came third last night behind two pro-Trump candidates who will now go into a runoff
2:25:46
All of this coming after Saturday's defenestration of Senator Bill Cassidy in Louisiana, who had voted back in 2021 to impeach President Trump for incitement to insurrection
2:25:59
He was taken down as a result of being targeted by the president
2:26:04
He becomes the first sitting member of the U.S. Senate to be deselected by local Republicans or Democrats on either side of the aisle since 2012
2:26:16
And Trump is not over yet. Yesterday, he endorsed Ken Paxton, the disgraced, clownish, scandal-laden former Attorney General of Texas, to become the next governor of Texas, to become the next senator from Texas, over the candidacy of the incumbent Senator John Cornyn
2:26:42
which, on the strength of what we've seen so far, dooms John Cornyn's chances of remaining in the Senate
2:26:48
And it may be an act that delivers, ultimately in November, that Senate seat in Texas into the hands of Democrats
2:26:56
But for Donald Trump, it's all about the purge now. He is getting rid of anybody who has given him jip in the Senate, in the House of Representatives
2:27:06
in the party more broadly in a bid to consolidate his power base ahead of November's midterms
2:27:12
And speaking of that, the developments regarding his so-called ballroom, I mean, I don't think it is veering into conspiracy theory territory to say it sounds like he might be preparing facilities
2:27:28
from which he would never emerge. Yeah, or from which any president might never emerge
2:27:35
I mean, it was staggering yesterday. President Trump took members of the White House press corps
2:27:40
on a tour of the building site for the project that we must all now stop calling the ballroom
2:27:47
because in Donald Trump's telling, the ballroom is simply a shield for everything underneath it
2:27:55
That's what he said yesterday. And everything underneath it is a six-storey underground fortress
2:28:02
a military complex. It's going to, he suddenly announced yesterday, contain a military hospital, some kind of scientific research centre
2:28:12
What kind of science they're going to be investigating down there? Who knows? It's going to contain secret and secure rooms for military commanders and others to hold meetings
2:28:23
It's going to be equipped with anti-drone and anti-sniper technology and munitions
2:28:30
Above ground, there's going to be a viewing area where the Secret Service and members of the military will have 360 degree, a 360 degree sweep of the whole area in the center of Washington, D.C
2:28:47
The entire city will be laid out before them. Whether we're talking about President Trump or any other president, if you wanted to build a fortress from which it is going to be extremely difficult potentially to dislodge an occupant, if you wanted to build an impenetrable military facility in the White House grounds, equipped, of course, with this new helipad that he's putting in on the south lawn of the White House
2:29:16
These are exactly the plans you would be implementing. And all of this talk about how he's doing it all with his own money and the money from donors
2:29:25
That's only the ballroom, literally the ballroom, where the Bridgerton-style dances are going to take place
2:29:31
All the stuff underneath, he's going to want Congress to pay for. And they are building it at a rapid clip
2:29:38
That became evident yesterday from that press availability. Was there any mention of a bald head and a fluffy white cat
2:29:45
I mean, that we were one step away from that. It is really important to underscore
2:29:51
And the American media, I have to say, has missed this over the last 24 hours
2:29:55
If you were a James Bond villain, this is literally... kind of facility you would be building to try and see off the forces of Mr. Bond and His Majesty's
2:30:08
Government. Indeedy. I mean, I thought originally of Thunderbirds, but they were the good guys
2:30:12
Simon, we're out of time. Thank you, as ever. And he's quite right, you know. A lot of the US
2:30:16
media has failed to pick up on the possible implications of what he just described, but
2:30:19
not our Simon. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on Global Player or the LBC
2:30:24
app. Stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinions. You can listen to a range of
2:30:28
including James O'Brien Daily, the best bits of this show every day
2:30:32
and Full Disclosure, which has been enjoying a rich seam of form of late
2:30:36
So do download the official LBC app for free from your app store now
2:30:40
Coming up at four on LBC, it's Tom Swarbrick. But now it's time for Sheila Fogarty
2:30:44
James O'Brien on LBC
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