Up next in 10
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 27th of May, 2026. 00:00 - Do you care about what Tony Blair has to say? 51:17 - Scientists voice alarm at fresh highs being set across europe - should we be worried? 01:38:47 - what's the most expensive thing you've ever bought without informing your partner? 02:01:35 – interview with israeli and palestinian peace activists - Maoz Inon & Aziz Abu Sarah, Co-CEOs of InterAct International Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jamesobrien #politics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Three minutes after ten, and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
0:07
Can we just send this to Toby Tarrant on Radio X? I think I've got one of his messages
0:12
Hey Toby, loving the show, please can you play Bombay Bicycle Club? Always like this, love from Josh Imad
0:17
Can we just, can you, Keith, just get Toby on there, will you? And just send that message over from Josh
0:24
Do you know what I really want to start the show talking about today? smells
0:29
not because of the heat or anything like that but just because of the way in which some smells
0:33
transport you almost uniquely don't they Proust I think wrote about this but I think it was
0:39
madeleines he was eating them wasn't he wasn't just smelling them but that idea that you get
0:43
transported some senses are so specific to certain memories was he smelling the madeleines
0:51
we've got a lot of work going on in this building at the moment I may have mentioned it to you
0:56
recently, and I mean a lot of work. It's magnificent to watch these people
1:00
do their thing. But they've got the metal grinders out today. What are they called? The saws that you
1:06
cut metal with, are they angle grinders? I mean, you know, they're ones that make enormous amounts
1:10
of noise and there's sparks going everywhere. But that smell, do you know that smell
1:14
That sort of metal, it's scale-extric. That's the only, that's scale-extric. I'm walking through the corridors
1:20
thinking, what's that? Oh man, it's scale-extric. And then I'm thinking, Have I still got one in the loft
1:29
Have I still got one in the loft, or did we lose it in the move? Scalextric, eh
1:34
I wonder how many smells you can file into that category. Because obviously it's not unique, because no one's playing Scalextric
1:41
I mean, if they are, that's a scam, isn't it? No one's playing Scalextric behind all these temporary walls
1:45
that are up around our building at the moment. But that is precisely the smell
1:51
Precisely the smell. sadly that's not what we're going to talk about this morning
1:56
I don't think even I could really justify a phoneme based upon transporting childhood smells
2:01
but never say never we might come to it one day there is a particular floor polish smell
2:07
that actually still makes me quiver because it was the smell of the floor
2:11
outside my headmaster's study when we were queuing up to get beaten by him
2:15
there is a, I don't know whether it was a peculiar brand of beeswax or something
2:19
but you know those parquet floors one of those smells that just gets me every time in the opposite emotional way of the
2:29
of the scale x street smell that was not in case you're wondering one of those moments where i am
2:35
struggling to bring myself to talk about the subject that i've decided that we're going to
2:38
talk about that would normally involve hideous crimes or particular unpleasantness but but i am
2:43
genuinely fascinated by what you're going to have to say about the subject that we start with today
2:50
I'd struggled a little to come up with the right question on this
2:55
because part of me acknowledges that Tony Blair has a different resonance
3:00
Those words, Tony Blair, has a different resonance for almost everybody, dependent not just on politics, but on class, on education
3:10
on, crucially, of course, political leanings. If you're Kosovan, for example, the words Tony Blair have an effect on you
3:18
akin to the smell of scale extracts on me. It makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside
3:23
Tony Blair regarded in Kosovo and other parts of the world as well
3:27
as a bona fide hero to the point where there are kids now in their
3:34
will that be in their 20s or their 30s, running around Kosovo, whose name is, all one word, Tony Blair
3:39
Tony Blair. And for people in my generation, there was, until relatively recently
3:45
a sort of soft nostalgic glow attached to his name, successive general election victories
3:52
a sense that he was rewriting the political rulebook, sullied to an extraordinary degree, of course
3:58
by the engagement in the Iraq war, following an American president into an ill-advised engagement
4:05
based upon it subsequently emerged at the very least deeply questionable intelligence
4:11
and of course doing so with absolutely no plan for what would happen next
4:17
So Tony Blair presumably has surrounded himself with people who don't point this out to him on a daily basis
4:24
but for a huge number of people, any good that he did has been eternally undermined by the bad
4:33
by the legacy of the Iraq war, which makes it a little rich, perhaps
4:39
that he is complaining about the current government not having a plan
4:43
the current Labour government not having a plan. The point is, and we'll get to shortly, I promise
4:50
he might be right, but, you know, him complaining about the current government
4:54
not having a plan when the biggest negative on his own balance sheet is the absence of a plan for the biggest foreign undertaking
5:01
of his premiership. And then there's the weird bits of this stuff
5:06
He's saying that the UK that's... Well, look, I mean, look, in a nutshell
5:10
if you're not across this, the most successful Labour Prime Minister ever
5:14
has attacked the current Labour Prime Minister. The last Labour Prime Minister to win a general election
5:20
has attacked the last Labour Prime Minister to win a general election
5:25
So there's only been two since 1997 who have won general elections
5:30
And the one that won three has attacked the one that won one
5:33
And he's attacked him quite hard. He's also warning against a lurch to the left
5:38
So, you know, he's kind of attacking everybody. He doesn't seem to be a particular fan of Andy Burnham or Wes Streeting
5:47
and he certainly doesn't appear to be a particular admirer of what Keir Starmer has done so far
5:55
He's written a 5,000-word essay for his eponymous Institute for Global Change
6:01
He's attacked Ed Miliband for Net Zero, Rachel Reeves for sticking to promises made before the election
6:08
And also warned against, despite sticking it to the current regime, also warned against any attempts to change the leadership
6:20
Trying to force the Prime Minister out before we know what policy direction we're bringing in is not a serious way of conducting ourselves, he says
6:28
With some sort of sense. With some sort of sense. and I can't quite process where I am this morning
6:37
which is why I'm going to ask for your help if you are of the centre or of the left
6:42
you find it a lot easier well unless you're a Jeremy Corbyn fan of course you find it a lot easier to change your mind
6:48
about your leaders I wouldn't necessarily say heroes unless you're a Jeremy Corbyn fan of course
6:54
but you find it a lot easier you know the scales fall from your eyes
6:58
some people really struggling to recognise the criticisms of Keir Starmer that are accurate
7:04
but many, many people who had enormous hope in their hearts two years ago
7:08
are feeling mostly disappointed and dismayed at the moment, to the point where the clamour for change
7:15
the support for Andy Burnham, is currently considerable in the country, or certainly among the Labour support
7:23
Not really and the Tories are ruthless at getting rid of people who are rubbish but they not ever going to turn upon their idols You know you still hearing people lie egregiously about Boris Johnson
7:37
Liz Truss, I guess, is a bit of an exception to the rule, but some people have still got effigies of Margaret Thatcher in their bedrooms
7:43
that they say the Hail Mary in front of every night. I think there are differences between the left and the right when it comes to tribalism
7:49
I'm not entirely sure what they are, but there are definitely differences. and it's very hard to let go of the idea that Tony Blair
7:58
was an emblem of all that was good about it. I mean, it was even called New Labour with capital N's and capital L's
8:05
New Labour and they sent kids to university whose families had never dreamed of going to university
8:11
Everybody felt a little bit better off. We seem to be not reclaiming necessarily
8:16
but redefining our role on the world stage. foreign affairs became once again an area in which Britain looked big and important, albeit
8:26
that we were often just following America. There were things that he undertook that were not
8:31
by any stretch of the imagination, fitting that description. He kind of did good. He felt good
8:39
Even Tories quite liked him. And of course, some people on the left think that's a kiss of death
8:43
He played an absolute blinder communications-wise. Even our rabid, feral media are under borderline control
8:54
thanks to the ministrations of Alistair Campbell and others. And he is now essentially calling for
9:02
and this is what I need to explain to you because you may not have seen it
9:06
You may not have been completely across what he's doing. He's attacking net zero at a time
9:11
when you only have to stick your head out the window to recognise the importance of cutting off our dependency on fossil fuels
9:20
as soon as is humanly possible. We may get onto that more specifically later in the programme
9:27
He's attacking net zero. He's attacking the economic policies of Rachel Reeves
9:32
which currently seem to be producing some growth, unexpectedly in some quarters
9:39
and crucially, I think, for our purposes this morning, he is arguing that Keir Starmer made a mistake
9:46
by not supporting Donald Trump going into Iran. Now, you know how often on this programme
9:56
you see, there's a good message, actually. Callum picks up on a point I was just about to make
10:00
That's interesting, Callum. We should call it great minds. He says, why do we now suddenly care what Blair says
10:06
Now, I suspect, Callum, that you're much younger than me, because you can't not care what a man who won three general elections says
10:13
You know, ex-presidents club, ex-prime ministers club. These people matter. Rishi Sunak today launching something to do with maths
10:20
And he gets lots and lots of coverage for it because he's an ex-prime minister, albeit one that never won a general election
10:25
This lad won three. That's why we care what he says. But I can't tell you why you should care about what he is saying
10:33
it's just a broad insistence that what he says matters because of who he is
10:40
because what he is saying and I say this cautiously what he's saying is insane
10:45
what he's saying is absolutely bonkers what he's saying could have been written
10:51
pretty much verbatim by one of Donald Trump's billionaire backers which brings us to a bloke
10:56
called Larry Ellison who owns Oracle and who is one of Donald Trump's
11:00
biggest billionaire backers and who, guess what funds the Tony Blair Institute to the tune of hundreds
11:06
yes, hundreds of millions of dollars, turning it into the sort of mothership of think tanks
11:13
albeit that the funding is transparent, which distinguishes it from some of the horror shows
11:17
that we have to endure in this country, largely in the environs of Tufton Street
11:21
but it's every single bit as bad. He's on Trump's... Well, he was, wasn't he
11:26
Did we follow that through? Do you remember Trump's board of peas? Do you remember that
11:31
Trump launched a board of peas, and all sorts of people were queuing up to join it
11:35
some of whom you may even have heard of. Tony Blair, you definitely heard of
11:39
He was invited to join the board of peas, wasn't he? I can't remember whether he turned up on the stage or not
11:45
but that was the moment where I experienced the dissimilar liberation of my relationship with Tony
11:52
But that was the moment where I felt, ah, okay, you've gone
11:56
You've gone. You've gone over the edge, over the brink. You've gone. You've joined
12:02
Donald Trump's Board of Peace. You're disgusting. And that's such a weird thing
12:08
to think about somebody that I grew up thinking was about as good a Prime Minister as we were ever
12:12
going to get. Two things can be true at the same time. He can still be one of
12:16
the best Prime Ministers or as good a Prime Minister as a Labour party is ever going to get into Downing Street
12:22
You can still be. He can still be that. And he can be today disgusting
12:27
suggesting that the United Kingdom should have followed Donald Trump into this hideous, illegal disaster in Iran
12:35
that's still ongoing, by the way. Hang on, what day is it, Keith? Is it Wednesday? So today is a ceasefire imminent day
12:42
And then tomorrow it'll be bombing again. And then on Friday it'll be, we've won completely
12:46
We've obliterated the enemies. Everything's over. I'm amazing. Aren't I great? Here's a medal
12:52
And then on Saturday it'll be back to, well, if they don't surrender soon, and we're going to attack the thing that we've already completely obliterated
12:59
And then on Sunday, he'll be announcing that we're perilously close to a ceasefire. And do you want to know something? Do you want to understand Trump
13:05
One day, something he says will be true. It will have very little to do with him, but one day, something he says will be true
13:12
And at that point, everyone will go, oh, yes, good old Donald Trump. He's finally negotiated, he's navigated this very difficult period
13:21
and he's secured a deal which will be, by definition, vastly inferior to the one that Barack Obama secured
13:27
But people like Larry Ellison and other billionaires who are part of his coterie will get it all around the world
13:35
that it's something brilliant. So, what is Tony Blair playing at? 0345 6060973
13:44
What's happened to Tony Blair? You get an indication of just how profound this shift seems to be
13:54
by looking at the front pages of newspapers that are passionately opposed to anything
13:58
that doesn't completely commit to the protection of and enhancement of epic wealth
14:05
So the Daily Mail says, now Blair Savages, Labour's lurch to the left
14:10
What? What is this lurch? Andy Burnham has effectively said He's not going to really change anything major
14:16
He's just going to do everything the same, but with a Mancunian accent. Well, I mean, you know, to be honest with you
14:23
embarrassing admission from about a week ago, do you remember? I kind of think that might work in the first place
14:29
Just do everything Keir Starmer's doing, but just seem like a slightly more relatable geezer
14:35
And you'll probably get polling results that leave Keir Starmer in the shade
14:39
But what is this lurch to the left you speak of, Mr Blair
14:44
What is this thing? And also, since when does an ex-Labour Prime Minister
14:49
condemn a Labour government, widely perceived as being at best quite ineffective
14:54
of lurching anywhere This lot wouldn be able to lurch if their lives depended on it They tiptoe Everything they do is a temporary tiptoe It the party of the temporary tiptoe
15:05
We're just going to tiptoe over there. Oh, we're just going to tiptoe back again, don't worry. No
15:10
winter fuel cuts. Winter fuel allows. We're just going to tiptoe it. The only time he hasn't tiptoed
15:16
the only time he's done anything close to lurching, is when he's told Donald Trump where to stick his
15:20
stupid war. And Tony Blair's got a problem with that as well. So there's an awful lot of stuff
15:26
here that is baffling, if that's the right word to use. And I think because we do have, or I do
15:32
anyway, and you probably do as well, some form of emotional investment in our politics. But it is
15:40
absolutely extraordinary that when he was in government, make no mistake, he increased spending
15:46
massively. To do that, he raised the taxes that he needed to do so. Welfare spending went up and it
15:52
was widely regarded as by his supporters, by his people. It was widely regarded as a good thing to
15:58
look after society's most vulnerable, but not just most vulnerable, but also to look after people who
16:04
needed a little bit of looking after for a while. It's what society does. We saw increases in
16:10
immigration that didn't bring about any of the disasters and harms that the usual suspects started
16:15
lying about as Brexit loomed closer. And he was obviously and correctly in favour of deeper EU integration
16:23
Now he genuinely appears to be against all of those things. Tony Blair has gone from seeing government
16:30
as an engine of change and improvement to being... What? Something that should be, quotes
16:36
stopping the boats without offering up a plan of how to do it
16:40
That's Nigel Farage territory. I will stop the boats. How I will do it, I know not
16:46
but they shall be the terror of the earth. It's extraordinary that Tony Blair
16:51
widely regarded as both a great communicator and an effective politician, is offering up reheated Nigel Farage policies
16:59
Stop the boats. How? Don't know. But stop the boats. What about net zero? Down with net zero
17:05
Why? Welfare spending? So, God, just vent if you want. Actually, I think today's the day for just doing whatever age you are
17:19
I'm interested in what you think Tony Blair is doing. But if you're 10 years either side of my age, so if you're between 40 and 60, actually, I'm getting on a bit
17:29
So if you're between 40 and 70, shall we say, so 14 to 15 years either side of my age
17:37
If Tony Blair is stamped in your political memory, like something very heavily stamped on something
17:45
if Tony Blair is stamped in your political memory, how do you account for the fact that he appears to have undergone an almost 180 degree change
17:56
It's as if he's been kidnapped and replaced with something created by, oh, I don't know, a billionaire backer of the depraved, delinquent Donald Trump
18:07
How can Tony Blair be arguing that we should have... I don't understand what has happened
18:14
And here's the thing. Here's the absolute kicker. Phone lines are open, by the way
18:20
You could have been forgiven for not noticing. Here's... Yeah, I know, I know, I know
18:24
It's 22 minutes after 10. All right, I just want to get this last bit out, okay? Oh, I don't want to tell you this
18:32
But I'm going to. So, because it's Tony Blair, and because I can keep Iraq out of my memories
18:42
for the purposes of what I'm about to say to you, there's still a little bit of me that thinks
18:47
well, hang on a minute, it's Tony Blair. Here it comes. Maybe he's right
18:55
I mean, if the politician that was more right than any other for the duration of your burgeoning political consciousness
19:03
for the duration of your youth, your 20s, and even your early 30s
19:07
The politician that was usually right about things is saying stuff that you think are completely wrong
19:14
Maybe it's a you problem. Maybe he's... So, two, three, four questions
19:18
What's Tony Blair playing at? What's happened to him? What's going on? What's your emotional or intellectual reaction
19:23
to this apparent personality change? And then, finally, and reluctantly, could it... Could he possibly be right
19:33
0345 6060 973 James O'Brien on LBC 55 minutes after 10 is the time
19:43
listen, it's only my perspective I could have missed something I could have got it completely wrong
19:48
but I can't quite get my head around how complete this capitulation seems to be
19:53
all the things that Tony Blair was famed for admired for he now is opposed to
20:01
And I want you to explain to me what you think has happened or why he is doing this
20:07
And it's underpinned with this shameful admission that a little bit of me thinks he's so good at politics, maybe he's right
20:15
And then I start thinking again. And all of my conclusions will be that he's not
20:21
He's not right at all. Especially on Trump. Especially on Trump. Is that just hubris
20:27
Or whatever the Greeks call it. Is that just him being utterly unable to admit that he should never have followed George W. Bush into Iraq
20:35
And therefore, all British Prime Ministers must always follow all US presidents into the Middle East
20:41
because it's the only way, really, he can almost justify inside himself the scale of the mistake that he made
20:48
It's that the denial is only sustainable if he says to every other..
20:53
Well, I'll shut up and listen to you for a while. Claire's in York. Claire, what do you want to say? What's going on? What's happened to Tony Blair
20:58
James, thank you for taking my call I'm just pinging off the walls this morning
21:03
I'm the same age as you I voted for Tony Blair twice
21:07
I was really impressed by him but I am so angry today
21:12
that I'm just absolutely beside myself and I really believe this is my truth
21:17
I really believe this to be true that Tony Blair in every intervention he makes
21:22
is trying to rewrite the script of his humiliating legacy on Iraq
21:27
And I think he subconsciously wants another Labour leader to make the same mistake as him by following the US into war just so that he is not the only one and he doesn't feel so bad about himself anymore
21:39
His ego is so inflated, just like Trump's, he can't bear that feeling of humiliation
21:46
And I think he's just shown how weak and feeble an ego he has, just like Trump
21:52
and I heard Nick Robinson say today on the BBC that Blair's words hold the most weight in the Labour Party
22:03
and that people listen to him and I just cannot think of anyone other than Reform Party
22:10
that would be listening to him right now I mean I'm a centrist and I'm not listening to him
22:15
but sure as hell the left aren't listening to him and I think Reform will be very proud of him right now
22:21
And I mean as for you know we talked about welfare cuts and you know it was bad to have minimum wage Like can you have any idea of what it like to survive on benefits
22:35
And actually, I think Labour have a very good policy on long-term change on welfare
22:42
And that is not to be cruel and populist and damaging by suddenly cutting them, as Tony Blair is suggesting
22:49
What Labour are suggesting are giving apprenticeships to kids, you know, a youth guarantee scheme, vocational courses, mental health in schools, so that they don't fall through the cracks and become the future recipients of welfare
23:05
That is a responsible, holistic way of going forward with benefits. And I really take objection to this constant refrain that Labour aren't on the right course or haven't done anything
23:21
They've done so many policies in the last two years, but they take a while to firstly go through legislation and then for us to feel the effects of those policies
23:32
and they're only just beginning and already we're seeing a reduction in immigration
23:36
A massive reduction in immigration, which is going to be very costly for the country
23:42
but we don't talk about that. Well, we're still growing, though. That's the thing
23:46
Don't talk about the consequences. I want you to stop pinging for a moment. Can you stop pinging just for a second
23:51
Sorry, I know I'm a sound. If my dad is listening now
23:57
he will remember on the first day that Tony Blair got... Sorry, on the first day, can I just say this
24:03
On the first day that Tony Blair, well, that's a Freudian slip
24:09
on the first day that Starmer got elected, Tony Blair was all over the media
24:16
and he was for days, and I remember texting my dad saying, I think Tony Blair thinks he's just been re-elected as leader
24:23
Do you know, I mean, you've said a lot of words, pot kettle. No, I love it, it's fantastic, and proper passion as well
24:30
I don't mean that in a patronising sense. It's nice to hear what politics means
24:34
in a world where it's easy to forget. But the word that's jumped out at me, actually
24:39
was subconscious. Because you're doing a kind of amateur psychology, aren't you
24:43
Maybe you're a professional psychologist. But that idea that he is haunted by..
24:47
I mean, look, either he is taking notes from Larry Ellison and just saying whatever it is that the billionaire
24:53
who funds his entire institute wants him to say. I'm not quite cynical enough to swallow that
24:58
I think it's deeper than that. Yeah, I think it's deeper than that. He's attacking the workers' rights bill
25:03
he's attacking that zero, and he is, I think, crucially, signing up to the idea that welfare incentivises people not to work
25:11
for which there is zero evidence. And like I said... Well, apart from, you know
25:17
the person that will ring in on other shows and occasionally on this one
25:22
always welcome to tell me that they know someone who knows someone who definitely is swinging the lead on the welfare
25:26
and therefore everybody on it must be a con man or woman. And the way to reduce welfare is to get people, when they're young
25:33
and give them hope and inspiration and give them possibilities, not punitively cutting it on people
25:41
Well, that's another massive psychological change in seeing the role of government to be a stepping stone
25:48
to helping people, to seeing the role of government to be too hurt
25:54
which is the mood music of modern politics. It's the politics of Viktor Orban
25:59
who is happily no longer in power. It's the politics of Donald Trump
26:03
What are you going to do for me? I'm going to hurt people that I've convinced you not to like
26:07
That's what I'm going to do for you. I'm going to deport them or I'm going to take away their money
26:11
I'm just going to hurt people I've convinced you not to like. I'm not going to do anything to help you, you mugs
26:15
You thought that the price of petrol was going to come down, didn't you? And the price of eggs. You claimed you were voting because you cared about the cost of things
26:23
but you still like me, which means it must be the promises to hurt people I've persuaded you not to like
26:28
And that's almost where Tony Blair is moving on this, on his comments about welfare and incentivising people not to work
26:38
Comments about net zero could have been lifted straight from the Donald Trump playbook
26:43
And that is, you can tell from Claire's voice, if you're not of our generation, it's genuinely baffling unless you get psychological about it, which you are, just like Claire, more than welcome to do
26:55
What's happened to Tony Blair? 0345 6060 973 Here is Dominic Ellis with your headlines
27:03
James O'Brien on LBC. 25 minutes to 11. I love this conversation, and Claire was the perfect kicker-offer of it
27:14
But it's a weird one, isn't it? Do you have a politician like Blair in your mind
27:20
I can't quite imagine that you do. It would be either Blair or... Well, I mean, I know people still cling to the carcass of the idea
27:27
that Boris Johnson was anything other than disastrous and morally delinquent. Margaret Thatcher
27:34
Imagine if Margaret Thatcher came out 20 years, 30 years, 40... Well, hang on, when did he leave power
27:39
2010, 2008. So less than 20 years after leaving power and announced that she was in favour of nationalisation
27:47
and nationalising all the things she'd privatised and attacked Rishi Sunak for his policies of looking after businesses
28:00
Margaret Thatcher suddenly became a great raiser of taxes and the defender of nationalisation
28:06
I mean, is it on that level? You get Blair this morning coming out against all of the things
28:12
that he actually did in power. It's not just the things that he campaigned for or apparently believed in
28:19
it's all of the things that he did empower is he is it i mean i i'm interested in how i sound to you
28:27
if you are cynical and by cynical i mean just you generally don't think very well of people
28:32
and i don't want to be like you but sometimes i think it must be a lot easier to get through life
28:37
with low expectations of people because then you'll never be disappointed but i can't it's not the way
28:43
i'm built there's nothing i can do about it i generally try to see the best in people i even
28:47
managed to briefly see some good in Matt Hancock during the bloody lockdown, which I will never
28:51
be forgiven for by myself, let alone by you. I try to see the good in people. I want to see the good
28:57
in people. But if you don't expect anything from anybody, you're never going to be disappointed
29:02
So I can't quite work this out. He hasn't been out of office for 20 years yet. He left in 2007
29:10
And when he was in office, he was, none of the things that he is telling Keir Starmer he should
29:16
be. And that is, well, it's genuinely baffling to me. But I suspect if I were
29:22
of a slightly more cynical demeanour, it wouldn't be quite as baffling
29:27
Dave's in Thetford. Dave, what do you reckon? I reckon that Claire
29:30
should get an early round of applause this week. You're probably right
29:34
It was powerful stuff, wasn't it? Yeah. I mean, like me and you, we're a similar age, right
29:41
We share a birthday, in fact. Do we? Gosh. Yeah. I'm even adopted the same as you
29:46
I'm a massive Pratchett fan. The difference is, on the mug that voted for the bus
29:54
I like this. Go on, what's happened to Tony Blair? Oh, mate, he was such a hero, wasn't he
29:59
I mean, like, schools were transformed. My kids have had a fantastic education
30:05
Do you know what I mean? And sort of, like, they've done really well. My daughter's, like, bank manager and, you know, me
30:11
I drive a forklift. Do you know what I mean? You can see the difference from, like, the uplift
30:16
And now he's talking all this claptrap. What's happened? Well, that's why I'm asking you, mate, respectfully
30:21
Well, I can tell you what's happened. He's feathering his nest. Do you think it is all about the Benjamins
30:26
It has been for the last decade. Every time something happens, he pops up and he's got someone else's opinion
30:32
It's like, ask for questions, Blairite type thing. You are more cynical than I am then
30:37
because I'm looking at where his money comes from. Larry Ellison was the richest man in the world for about 10 minutes
30:43
I don't know if you remember when the share price of Oracle peaked. And he's given hundreds, or pledged, hundreds of millions of pounds
30:53
And guess what made him the richest man in the world briefly? Having a clue
30:58
It was his stake in AI infrastructure. And guess which bit of what Tony Blair has said today
31:03
I haven't actually shared with you yet. He's saying that everything should be done by AI
31:08
We need to go all in on AI. But again, it might be true, but if you're being bankrolled by a bloke
31:13
who became the richest man in the world briefly solely because he, well, not solely, but in that moment
31:18
because he was so heavily invested in AI, it means I'm minded not to trust a word you say about AI
31:25
Well, I'm for all the AI. so if he wants to chuck some reddies over in Norfolk
31:29
I'm happy to take it. We can build it up. So at 10.40 is the time
31:33
Thank you, Dave. I mean, is it... Because, I mean, listen, my confusion is genuine
31:39
as is my naivety, or whatever the opposite of cynicism is. Is it just... Is that what you're seeing
31:44
You're just saying, no, James, just wind you. Come on, mate. Give your head a wobble
31:47
It's Occam's razor. If someone gave you 250 million... If someone turned you into a kind of post-statesman guru
31:55
you need an awful lot of money to do that. The Institute is huge, absolutely huge
32:02
$130 million between 21 and 2023. A further $218 million pledged since then
32:10
It's seen the Tony Blair Institute move from a headcount of 200 to approaching 1,000
32:15
It takes no salary himself, but the Institute has become a sort of global powerhouse
32:22
with his name all over it. and that, I'm afraid, speaks to ego, right
32:29
If not enrichment, then ego. And maybe I am just being naive
32:35
Finn's in Epsom. Finn, what would you like to say? Hi, James. First time caller
32:39
So the heart is beating a bit. Thank you for having me on. You'll do
32:44
Thanks. So I've just spent my last four years studying in the US
32:48
and I tried to read this Blair article without having an emotional reaction to it. Yes
32:53
and when doing that I found it actually that I think he had a lot of valid points and from a
33:00
realist perspective I thought it was quite impressive bar on the climate crisis um and his
33:07
arguments on welfare but specifically with the U.S. relationship being the answer we'll get to that
33:13
but those are for me those are the two biggest things in it the comments about welfare yeah climate
33:17
Yeah, I agree with that, especially the climate and the North Sea oil fracking
33:23
which I just think is a terrible idea with everything that's going on in the geopolitical world right now
33:28
So in terms of being closer, trying to restore or not having said any no's to Donald Trump
33:33
you think that that was a mistake by Keir Starman? No, I think as Blair wrote in the article, he suggested that the worst part about it
33:42
was that he only asked to use our bases. He didn't ask us to explicitly join the war
33:48
But to use our basis as an ally, I think, wasn't too bad of an ask
33:55
Although, obviously, Trump is the most incompetent president we've probably ever seen in our lifetime
34:01
Well, he did originally ask us to join in the attacks. Yes, but then Tony Blair, I'm guessing, didn't state that in the essay that we should full burn and join the war
34:12
Instead, just use the military basis. And I think that point, although contentious, I think there's some validity to that, especially with the other geopolitical powerhouses at the moment, such as China and Russia, not being as trustworthy
34:27
And obviously spending the last four years in America, it may give me a bit of bias, an emotional bias towards them
34:33
But I think we do have the wrong view of Americans at the moment
34:38
as the majority of them are good-loving people who want the world to be a safe place
34:44
I mean, you're spinning several plates, and I've got a horrible feeling a couple of them might have smashed already
34:50
So, I mean, nobody conflates Donald Trump with all of America. Yeah
34:55
And the fact that you've got a morally bankrupt delinquent in the White House
34:59
means that you, as a world leader, have to treat the White House differently from how you would
35:03
if it was occupied by a vaguely sensible or decent human being
35:08
The war is almost certainly illegal. It's proved to be utterly disastrous
35:13
The argument that we shouldn't have been involved in it at all is very popular in this country
35:17
and that we shouldn't even have allowed our bases to be used for the sort of retaliation to the retaliation
35:23
which, if you look at the Chilcot checklist, is intellectually solid as a position
35:27
but quite hard to sell politically. What would have been achieved by Keir Starmer
35:32
of being more heavily associated with this unfolding disaster. Yeah, I... Except keeping Trump sweet
35:40
which, as we've discovered a million times since he became president, only holds true for about 12 seconds
35:46
Yes, I agree with that. Hang on, are you agreeing with everything I've said
35:50
while they're apparently defending Tony Blair? Yes, because two things can be true at once
35:54
Yeah, well, no, right and wrong can't be true at once. This is a bit close to..
35:58
So you've got a warm feeling about America and you think Tony Blair has spoken to your warm feeling about America
36:04
I don't want to patronise you, but that's not... No, no, no, yeah. I don't think that's true. I think there's a difference between being honest in private
36:10
and then grandstanding publicly in a moment when you need the American goodwill on things like, I don't know
36:16
security, technology or trade. Yeah, OK, no, we do disagree. We do disagree
36:21
I'm watching Europe recalibrate for a world where America can no longer be trusted
36:25
And even if it returns to a place where it can be trusted because it's led by someone who's not morally bankrupt
36:29
and intellectually delinquent, then it would be healthy and good for the United Kingdom
36:34
and indeed for the rest of Europe to no longer be so dependent upon a restored United States of America
36:40
That special relationship, I think, has been consigned to the coffin of history
36:45
I really do. And it's just a question of how quickly we can detach ourselves more properly from it
36:50
rather than, as Tony Blair seems to believe, tacking transatlantically, tacking towards the United States of America
36:58
and waiting until relations can be restored because the White House is not occupied by a madman
37:06
And that's fine. That is a position that we can comfortably disagree on
37:10
without either of us being able to prove the other one wrong 100%. But in my bones, in my core
37:17
I feel that we've reached a point in our own island history where we can no longer be at the beck and call of the United States of America
37:23
And if we kick back to Claire and her psychological subconscious observation that that what motivates Blair that refusal to even contemplate the fact that Iraq was the disaster that everybody else knows it to be
37:37
that means that he will seek to maintain that special relationship between the United Kingdom and the United States
37:45
So I can make some sense of that, even as we disagree, but on the welfare and the net zero stuff
37:49
he might as well be doing stenography for the billionaires, as far as I can tell
37:54
one of whom became the richest man in the world briefly due to his investments in AI
37:58
and one of Tony Blair's other positions is that the government should be throwing everything it has got into AI
38:04
What an extraordinary coincidence. James O'Brien on LBC. 49. Here's the thing. He is a former Labour prime minister
38:13
but nothing that he believes in today fits with what the Labour movement should be committed to
38:20
That's why I'm struggling, I think intellectually, less so emotionally. I'm repulsed by what Tony Blair has written in his latest essay, truly repulsed by it
38:29
It's only difficult to process because it's so completely at odds with everything he claimed to believe in and represent
38:34
when he was both seeking and exercising power. But every single thing on his list is of a piece with somebody who spends their time knocking about with Jared Kushner
38:45
doing deals with deeply unpleasant foreign governments, providing consultancy and advice, and running an institute grandiosely named after himself
38:56
which is funded to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars by one of Donald Trump's biggest billionaire backers
39:03
a man who briefly became the richest in the world as a consequence of his investments in precisely the AI
39:09
that Tony Blair says Keir Starmer should be spending more taxpayers' money on investing
39:14
and therefore inflating the profits of the companies that run the stuff
39:18
It's just the completeness of the capitulation that's so rare. I'm a big fan of mind-changing
39:24
I've written a book that begins with the line, there is no point having a mind if you never change it
39:30
I'm not the first to have made that observation, but it rings inside me as a truth
39:36
with a resonance that few truths have. But this doesn't read like a man who's changed his mind
39:42
It reads like a man who Groucho Marx would once have described as having opinions
39:46
and if you don't like them, I got others! I got others! So who are these opinions for? Larry Ellison
39:54
Or is he a sincere and authentic man who's undergone something of a shift in his convictions
40:00
and has decided to do the rest of us the profound honour of sharing them with us
40:06
Phil's in Westminster. Phil, what do you think? Hi, James. Hi. Hello
40:09
Hello. I'm kind of really glad you've done this, Fainan, because I went after watching the documentary about him
40:16
Yes. Yeah, I found that was, like, really interesting. Yeah, we watched that as part of our A-level revision at home, actually
40:23
It was no hagiography, was it? Yeah, what came across to me was
40:28
it was really kind of delusional was what came to my mind. He really wants to remain relevant
40:35
I mean, the fact that he's kind of written a 5,000-word essay. And really he has, even though he hasn't got a kind of ego like Trump, he has got a big ego
40:46
He tried to cling on to power, you know, at the end of his career as prime minister
40:53
And what really kind of concerns me was in that documentary, when he feels that he is right, he thinks that it's right
41:04
Well, yeah, I mean, go on, sorry, finish. So if I really feel like I'm right about something
41:12
then I would question myself, is this just a feeling, or am I right
41:18
He has such belief that he is right, and it almost seems kind of messianic
41:26
Yeah, that's a word that's often used, actually. I mean, I prefer delusional, to be honest with you
41:30
Yeah. But they go hand in hand. I think there's a hint of that
41:34
I don't think it's totally. He's not totally fueled by religion or something, But there is a corner of his mind, I think
41:40
So there's a sort of, I've already used the word grandiosity, which may not even be a word
41:44
It's almost a form of megalomania here, do you think? Yeah, yeah
41:48
So this is the bit that I can't quite believe. And this is where the psychological argument kicks in
41:55
I know, this is what he wrote, I know how hard it is to be an ally of the USA
41:59
That to me is so wrong. I'm searching for a bigger word
42:05
but sometimes the little words are best. It's so wrong. It is not about being an ally of the USA
42:10
It is about treating your allies according to how they treat you
42:14
It's about treating your allies according to who is in charge. The USA under Barack Obama or even George Bush or Ronald Reagan
42:22
is not the USA under the heel of Donald Trump and his coterie of cronies and cretins
42:30
I mean, it is insane to suggest that we have a kind of God-given duty
42:36
to be allies of the USA, whatever they do. And then we move into the self-justification
42:41
We were its staunchest supporter post-9-11. 9-11 was a hideous terror attack
42:47
visited upon one of our closest allies by Islamist extremists. It bears no relationship whatsoever
42:53
to the decision of Benjamin Netanyahu to attack Iran and talk Donald Trump into joining him
42:59
And then he goes on, we went through Afghanistan and Iraq together. What is the equivalence he's seeking to draw here
43:05
but it mattered deeply to America, and so it mattered to us also
43:10
And he reads like a second-rate undergraduate. He signed up to the Billionaires Club, hasn't he
43:16
Well, I hate these simple answers to, well, simple questions. When you think about it, you know
43:21
I don't know what would happen to me if I hung around with billionaires
43:25
and I had, you know, hundreds of millions at my disposal. It's a really good point, mate
43:30
It's a really good point. We don't know what happens. I mean, you see it, don't you
43:33
there comes a point where you're wheelset thinking, well, if I won the lottery, I'd be fine
43:39
But what if you weren't? What if you just wanted more and more, not just money, but status
43:44
I want to be on the board of peas. I want to get this. I want to get that. I want to have the biggest
43:48
I want to have big carpets. I want to have an HQ with my name above the door
43:52
I want to have a statue. The bloke who ran phones for you
43:56
has just bought himself a bloody great statue of himself. And that's what happens to these people
44:01
He's a mobile phone salesman. fair play to the fellow he's done brilliantly well but who commissions a statue of themselves
44:07
answer quite possibly tony blair yeah i mean that you know it really is important to who you keep
44:14
company with you know if you've got a child say they're a good child and they hang around with
44:17
um some friends a group who have and um you know i heard it told um that it's of utter importance
44:25
who you hang around with i think you're right which can override your hanging out with jared
44:29
Krishna, you suddenly think Donald Trump should redevelop Gaza as a sort of playground for the super-rich
44:34
just somehow do what we did in 1948 and remove all the Palestinians
44:38
like a sort of inconvenience from their homes? That's extraordinary. But staying with it means even when it is difficult or unpopular
44:50
America remains the indispensable core of Britain's security alliance. And then he slags off the European Union He moves into the maze of European councils commission bureaucracy and the often ugly compromises of EU membership Just extraordinary
45:06
I think he's been kidnapped. I think he's been kidnapped, and this was written by AI
45:12
An AI version of the anti-Blair. AI, write me a speech that is the exact opposite
45:18
of what Tony Blair, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, believed between 1997 and 2007
45:24
when he was Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. Write me a speech and please bring in
45:28
welfare spending, workers' rights, the environment, net zero, relations with Donald Trump
45:35
as President of the United States of America and proponent of illegal wars
45:39
and hideous other egregious acts. Please write me the anti-Blair, the speech that is the polar opposite
45:45
of what Tony Blair, Prime Minister, would have said about all of these issues
45:49
From workers' rights and welfare spending, right through to the environment and the European Union
45:54
The only thing that I think Tony Blair, Prime Minister, and Tony Blair 20 years later would agree on is
46:01
oh, we need to follow America into a war, even if it's illegal and stupid. Because if we don't say that now, in 2026
46:08
then we would have to admit that we made a terrible mistake then. So the only consistency here is about illegal wars
46:16
and support for bloodlust in the mind of an American president. And listen, it's easier to justify the Iraq war than it is the current Iran war
46:27
But that's the only point of consistency. On every other point, this entire speech could have been written by an AI exponent
46:36
charged with writing the polar opposite positions of what Tony Blair, prime minister, would have contended 25 years ago
46:44
And that's the end of my TED talk. From one Phil to another. this one's in Oxford
46:48
Phil, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Hello, Phil. My goodness me, take a breath
46:53
I'm all right now. That's what you're here for. Okay, thank you, thank you
46:58
Okay, so, you know, I was a real Blair fan, 97, 35 years old, dancing in the streets
47:05
Yeah. And, you know, still holed up with possibly slightly rose-tinted spectacles
47:12
the fond memories of all the achievements. up until the Iraq War
47:20
So, you know, you could put me down as a fan, started with a big F
47:25
but it became slightly smaller. A shrinking F. Yes, absolutely. There's a joke there somewhere
47:33
But I'm struggling with this because I am so sad and disappointed
47:39
you've articulated it 20 times better than I ever could Nonsense Particularly
47:47
Okay, well I'll give it a go Particularly around appeasing Trump staying close to
47:54
because I don't see that you can create that disconnect as an earlier caller said
47:59
about the American people with Trump because we are dealing with Trump
48:03
if we say yes we'll help you with Iran and he's a maniac
48:07
and we all know that Tony Blair doesn't Tony Blair obviously doesn't know that
48:12
well yeah and that takes us back to Phil Wan doesn't it and the idea that you spend so long
48:18
in a certain environment that some form of moral osmosis occurs and you end up thinking that all of this
48:24
is not just acceptable and normal but desirable and the next thing you know
48:28
you're shaking hands with Jerry Kushner whose qualifications to be a Middle East peace envoy are that he
48:32
works for his father's real estate firm in New York and Tony Blair's sitting there going that's all perfectly fine
48:38
that's absolutely fine that's not just fine, that's great and that is when you lose sight of the fact
48:43
that Donald Trump's a maniac a deranged liar absolutely, I absolutely agree with you
48:49
and here he is so what are you clinging on to then? where are you finding hope that things aren't as bad
48:54
as I'm describing them to be? it's a stretch it's pragmatism it's pragmatism for
49:02
standing in front of the veering bus that is the Labour government at the moment
49:08
in order to try to get them to realise that we are lurching towards the inevitability
49:17
of a hard-right, reform-led government. And he's saying let's be more like them
49:24
Well, I think he's saying, well, yes, you're absolutely right. Let's adopt those policies
49:31
through the filter of a Labour government, And this all sounds dodgy and rubbish, as I'm saying
49:39
No, it doesn't. It doesn't. That is what he's doing. Well, yeah, absolutely it is
49:44
I'm just saying it's dodgy and rubbish because it's just so wrong, isn't it
49:49
It's just so wrong. Yes, it is. That's the word that we keep coming back to
49:54
It's just wrong. And then you and I, because we're sweet summer children
49:57
and we have this sort of legacy of Tony Blair and his election victories
50:03
and the good that his government did, And not least, we haven't even mentioned Northern Ireland
50:07
But the, you know, we can't quite believe it is as wrong as it appears to be
50:12
But it probably is, mate. Yeah, I agree. And, you know, deep irony
50:17
Who bought in the minimum wage? Which government bought in the minimum wage
50:22
The Blair government. Yeah, no. I mean, there's lots of things on the tick list. And now he's complaining about changes to the living wage
50:27
It's actually probably the best example of all, of a reverse ferret
50:31
And opposed to a workers' rights bill, a former Labour prime minister. opposed to workers' rights. Why
50:36
Well, because he's not a worker, is he? He's a member of the owning classes
50:40
if you want to get all Marxist about it. He's become a member of the owning classes
50:46
And he wasn't when he was Prime Minister. Or at least he thought that his path to the kind of fame
50:50
that eluded him when he was in a rock band would be to be a representative of workers
50:55
the working classes. That's such an overused phrase. We're all members of the working classes
51:00
if we rely upon our work for our lives and our livelihoods. it doesn't matter whether you're a plumber or a pundit
51:06
If you'd be skimped by Christmas, if you didn't go to work tomorrow, then you're a member of the working classes
51:11
And Tony Blair just isn't. He speaks for the plutocrats, the oligarchs
51:15
and the members of Donald Trump's inner circle. James O'Brien on LBC
51:20
It's 11.06, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. And I kind of like it when this happens
51:25
when people I admire seem to be on a similar page of history
51:30
to where I am. I like it, but I get mildly irritated on a professional level
51:34
when they manage to put it better than I did. It took us an hour to get to where Dmitry Grozobinski
51:39
our resident trade expert, was at half past seven this morning when he wrote
51:43
Thanks, Mr Blair, but a baselessly confident 6,000-word diatribe telling the UK to move right on every issue
51:50
while embracing Trump and Silicon Valley wasn't even that cute all those times Dominic Cummings wrote it
51:56
And there it is. The sound of my fingers being prized off
52:01
The hope that Tony Blair hasn't gone completely rogue. And of course, who do we usually turn to at times like this
52:08
Who normally wrote the book, literally, about what we're witnessing when we look at societal decline and personal political disappointment
52:19
Another Blair. Another Blair. Are you with me yet? Yeah Not Tony but Eric Eric Blair the given name of the author best known as George Orwell Because Tony Blair gone full pig
52:35
That's it. That's the way you make sense of this. He's just gone full pig
52:40
That's all. What's next? Eight minutes after 11 is the time. You just heard in the news bulletin
52:46
is it the hottest May ever? Can we say that? Can we conclude that already
52:51
Can we? What if it snows tomorrow? Surely the overall average would then come down a bit to keep it
52:56
But I turned on the news. I was watching the news last night. I normally miss the six because I'm watching Richard Osmond's House of Games
53:03
But it was too hot to get up and change channel. Don't be silly. I've got a remote control
53:07
They're the future. I was watching the news last night and the newsreader came on
53:12
And I don't remember the precise phraseology that she deployed. But it worked
53:18
Somehow I responded to something that I already knew in quite a fresh way
53:24
And she said something like, the record, the hottest May day on record has been broken again
53:31
It can't have been those words, could it? Because that doesn't make sense. The hottest May day, the record for the hottest day in May
53:38
that might have been it. The record for the hottest day in May ever has been broken again
53:45
Like, for the second day running. So the day before yesterday was the hottest day in May ever recorded in this country
53:53
The hottest day in May ever recorded in this country. And then yesterday, the day after the day before yesterday
53:59
are you still with me at the back? Yesterday was also the hot..
54:03
So it was even hotter than the day before. That's how these records work. That's not an opinion, that's counting
54:09
The hottest day... I don't know what happened to my throat then, I apologise. The hottest day in May ever
54:16
has happened twice in the last three days. And it's May. You know, I got married in May 26 years ago
54:26
and we thought it, you know, absolutely no guarantee the weather would be nice
54:30
The fact that the sun came out at all was a flipping miracle. It was the beginning of May, I grant you, but still
54:36
The hottest day in May ever. Twice. In the last three days
54:46
And that was the moment where I actually felt alarmed. That's the right word to use, alarmed
54:55
It's funny language, isn't it? Because if I say scared, then you might go
55:00
well, I'm not scared. I remember when people started wearing masks in London during the pandemic, and I thought
55:05
well, I'm not wearing a mask, I'm not scared. Wearing a mask is like wearing a badge saying, I'm scared
55:09
I thought, well, it's a killer. It's a killer virus. You should be scared, you absolute muppet
55:15
oh I'm not scared I'm not wearing a mask I told you at the time the first time I saw people wearing masks
55:19
before there was any sort of mandate in place I'm wandering around Leicester Square people are wearing masks and I think oh
55:24
wusses I'm not wearing a mask happily I'm still able to give my head a wobble
55:29
on occasion and recognise that if I say alarmed it doesn't have the same emotional heft even though it's
55:35
conveying exactly the same thought alarmed I was alarmed for the first time I was alarmed
55:42
because that is not normal i mean it is literally the definition of not normal if you wanted to find
55:51
a perfect encapsulation of what not normal is then it would be abnormal to the point where
55:57
we've just broken the record for not normal two days in succession we're cooked
56:04
and yet that alarm lasted approximately well i think i've switched over actually to richard
56:12
Osmond's House of Games. So it barely lasted three minutes. It's the first time since the heat wave
56:17
began a couple of days ago. It was the first time I felt alarmed. I thought, God, this can't be good
56:25
This can't be good. And then it was gone. It was gone like that. It was gone like a, I don't know
56:32
a blossom caught in a summer breeze, a spring breeze. It blew, my alarm was gone. And I'm
56:39
going to be completely honest with you. It's not here now. And here's the thing, right
56:48
It blummin' well should be. I shouldn't just be alarmed for 13 seconds while watching the news
56:55
and being hit by the power of the words that the newsreader has deployed. I should be alarmed by
57:01
the numbers on my phone. I should be alarmed by the simple recognition that this is becoming the
57:05
new normal. I should be alarmed by the fact that this is almost incontrovertible evidence that we
57:12
are on our way to hell in an environmental handcart. And you've still got people like Tony Blair
57:18
popping up to say, oh, I don't know about old Ed Miliband and his attempts to cut our dependency
57:22
on fossil fuels. It's just insane. But I'm not alarmed. I'm not alarmed. And I don't know why
57:31
I'm not a stupid man. I'm not a stupid man. I might seem quite stupid sometimes, but I'm not a stupid man
57:39
I know that I'm living on a heating planet. And I know that the level and speed of heating became catastrophic some time ago
57:49
And I know that for many people who really understand this stuff
57:53
the point of no return may already have been passed. And it means that people will die
57:59
That lands will disappear. people died in france i mean presumably oh man the stories i can't bear are the ones about kids
58:09
jumping in the water this has got nothing to do with climate change um except that of course the
58:14
reason they jumped in the water was because it's so hot but those stories every single time they
58:18
break my heart and i think do you know why it's because contained within a single sentence
58:23
you move from joy to tragedy there's something so joyous about jumping into water on a hot day
58:31
especially when you're a child and it's just beautiful right and and it moves to tragedy
58:37
before you've even got to the end of the sentence it's from joy to tragedy in a single sentence so
58:42
when you read the stories about the poor kids being pulled out of ponds uh you just feel something
58:49
inside you clench in a way that is quite horrible quite horrible so those stories are bad enough and
58:56
then in france we've got stories i think nine people have died as a direct consequence of the
59:00
heat. And you know, we don't really understand this stuff, do we
59:04
But you know that these things exacerbate existing problems. They contribute to
59:10
health conditions. They make you and us less healthy. But I'm not alarmed
59:18
I'm not alarmed. I'm intellectualising it to you. I can hear your emotions with the stuff about the
59:24
children in the ponds, right? I got your emotions then, didn't I? It wasn't just inside me
59:28
that something clenched. That line, that sentence, we move from joy to tragedy, in a single sentence
59:34
That got you. That got you. It's the hottest day ever in May, two days running. The last
59:45
record didn't last, it lasted 24 hours before it got beaten by the new record. And we are
59:49
living smack in the middle of it. I'm not getting you. I'm not, nothing's clenching
59:54
inside you, or indeed outside you. I'm not alarming you. Am I
1:00:00
Why? I feel a bit like Russell Crowe in Gladiator. I don't often feel like Russell Crowe. I've got to be honest with you
1:00:12
Are you not alarmed? As opposed to are you not entertained? Are you not alarmed? Why are you not alarmed
1:00:20
This is the very definition of abnormal. and we're sitting here and i'm guilty i'm absolutely guilty as charged this isn't one
1:00:30
of those hours where i get to feel a little bit superior or smug about having seen the problems
1:00:34
coming more clearly than you did it's quite the opposite i am sitting here wondering whether or
1:00:40
not we've got any of those fruit pastel lollies left in the freezer wondering whether or not it
1:00:46
be too hot to play ping pong when we get home because i finally got the table out the garage and stuck it on the lawn
1:00:51
I'm sitting here wondering about whether it made any difference last night
1:00:55
when I left the loft hatch open because I'd read somewhere that if you leave the loft hatch open
1:00:59
it makes the house cool down. Wondering whether we'll have another barbecue tonight
1:01:04
and have I still got that spatchcock chicken in the freezer and will it defrost in time to stick it on the barbecue
1:01:08
if I take it out of the freezer as soon as I get home? Wondering about whether or not it's going to be actually hotter here
1:01:14
than it is when I go to Greece next month. I'm not alarmed. I'm not alarmed Why
1:01:25
0345 6060973 Why are we not alarmed? Why are we not alarmed
1:01:33
More alarmed By this week's weather Not by the big global warming picture
1:01:40
Not by the climate change Story The climate change science We've done that before, we'll do it again
1:01:48
But this week's weather, why are we not more alarmed by it
1:01:53
Normally, when a record is broken, we're really flipping notice. And we either celebrate or commiserate
1:02:00
Right? That's the worst thing ever. Or that's the best thing ever. Records are kept for that reason
1:02:06
They prompt an emotional response in people. These records have been broken twice in two days
1:02:13
It's a massive flipping record. And we are... Imagine if it was the opposite
1:02:18
Imagine if the Thames had frozen over. And, you know, we were all having to buy snowshoes or something to get to work
1:02:27
This is the coldest day in May we've ever seen. We'd be alarmed. We'd be alarmed
1:02:34
We're not alarmed. I don't know why we're not alarmed. You are allowed to ring me and tell me that you are alarmed
1:02:40
But, but, it has to be about this week's weather. Why are we not alarmed by this week's weather
1:02:51
So, by all means, you know, reflect upon how alarmed you are by the bigger picture
1:02:56
but I already know about that. I guess the most interesting phonemes we've had about the environment
1:03:02
are the ones where we've pinpointed the precise moments when people became radicalised
1:03:12
when they realised that the single most important thing they could do with the rest of their life
1:03:15
was to resist the tyranny of fossil fuels by joining Just Stop Oil or by becoming an activist
1:03:22
And that's radicalised in a good way. Those have been the really interesting moments for me
1:03:26
having these conversations. And there have been times when I thought I was teetering on the brink of joining you, on the right side of history
1:03:33
The right side of history. And that led me to wonder, what will it take
1:03:38
How many times have we had the... What do you think it will take? Like the floods in Europe
1:03:44
Do you remember those floods in Europe a couple of years ago? We did a phone-out. Is that going to change anybody's mind about anything
1:03:50
What's it going to take to alarm us sufficiently? Because some people are alarmed
1:03:57
And some people are disgusting. They know exactly how much trouble we're in
1:04:02
and they are determined to carry on that course because it's making them all very rich
1:04:07
There are some little echoes there of the first hour of the programme. The rest of us, the 80% that are on neither extreme
1:04:14
the future of the planet in some ways depends upon us getting alarmed. And if you're not going to get alarmed
1:04:20
so what would alarm, if a tree had caught fire at the bottom of your garden
1:04:24
would you be sufficiently alarmed? You wouldn't, would you? Why aren't we alarmed
1:04:30
0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. That's all, the psychology of it
1:04:37
science of it? I don't know. I mean, the influence, the fact that it is probably down to
1:04:42
precisely the same media outlets that persuade us constantly to vote against our own interests, that we're not sufficiently alarmed
1:04:49
Is it possible to be sufficiently alarmed? What would be sufficiently alarming
1:04:57
Are you not alarmed? 0345 6060 973. It's mad. it's absolutely mad
1:05:07
that we are not more scared or alarmed or concerned by the fact that
1:05:14
we are cooking James O'Brien on LBC it's 22 minutes after 11
1:05:20
you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC seven dead in France as something called a heat dome
1:05:28
event effectively and I don't use this word lightly bakes the continent
1:05:34
and we've broken records and of course it's not confined to the United Kingdom
1:05:38
France had two record-breaking May heat days as well. In the Lazio region of Italy which contains Rome
1:05:45
they've put restrictions on work in jobs that have prolonged exposure in the sun
1:05:51
farms, construction sites, the delivery sector, essentially told to stand easy between half past 12 and 4 o'clock in the afternoon
1:06:00
National heat index in France reached 24.8 degrees centigrade, surpassing Monday's record of 24.6
1:06:08
All 96 administrative departments have been placed on an orange high-temperature alert
1:06:12
We've had those here. It doesn't alarm us. And I'm guilty. I'm not sitting here in judgment on anybody else
1:06:20
And I don't quite understand why. I want you to tell me, why are we not more alarmed
1:06:27
Mark's in Torquay. Mark, what do you reckon? I reckon it's simply because we're historically bad judges of risk as a species
1:06:35
Yeah, we... I think... Actually, I think you may have discussed this on Mystery Hour time or two in the past
1:06:41
Go on. But it's... It's partly what you get from people like the BBC
1:06:46
who are all going... You know, weather forecasters out in the sun, isn't it lovely
1:06:49
Strawberries and cream and all that kind of stuff. But that's true. It is lovely
1:06:53
And strawberries and cream are delicious in the sun. I'm not poo-pooing you
1:06:57
I don't know if it's an answer to the... Well, maybe it is
1:07:00
So the weather forecasters should be sort of being really sombre. Yeah, pretty much
1:07:06
But we like sunshine, mate. That's the problem, isn't it? I mean, I can't announce good news in a sombre voice and make it bad news
1:07:12
Hey, the weather's great. Oh, the weather's... It's going to be really hot this weekend
1:07:16
It'll be a lovely time to go to the beach. Do you see what I mean? It's... I don't know quite what it is, but the alchemy of communication is not..
1:07:24
It's lost. But it also ties in as I say with our horrifically bad lack of risk perception It would probably take something like the tyres melting on our cars on the hot tarmac for us to appreciate
1:07:37
ooh, this does affect me. Or, you know, as you said, you sit in an air-conditioned building
1:07:43
I've got an air-conditioned car. Air-conditioning can take away all of that heat
1:07:48
But the trouble is, it's just pumping out more heat on the other side
1:07:51
Yeah, the Tories announcing that they're going to lift a ban that they imposed on air conditioning in houses
1:07:56
and nobody points out that if we'd achieve net zero, you can have all the air conditioners you want
1:08:01
It's the fuel that's used to run them that is the problem, not the existence of the air conditioner
1:08:07
You've got a solar-powered air conditioner, you'd be laughing. Hey, there's an idea. Do they exist
1:08:13
Well, heat pumps are kind of similar to that. Yeah, but a solar-powered air conditioner
1:08:18
This could be how we make our millions. Yeah, but you can't beat the laws of physics, James
1:08:23
No, this is true. If you put something, if you do work
1:08:27
there's a certain amount of inefficiency, you create heat, and if you use it to cool down
1:08:32
it's like your fridge. Your fridge is cold on the inside, but it makes your room warmer
1:08:36
Yes. What would it take, do you think? I mean, there may be no answer to this question
1:08:42
so don't feel any pressure, but what would it take for somebody current, somebody like me, actually
1:08:47
who knows intellectually this is scary, but just doesn't feel the alarm that he should feel
1:08:52
What would it take? It would take years. It would take, like, massive cancer outbreaks
1:08:57
It'd be like living in Australia. We'd have to... They're well aware of the risk in Australia
1:09:04
They have been for decades, but even so, it doesn't stop them being some of the worst climate deniers on the planet
1:09:08
So we don't know. I mean, it is just us, then. So you're going... I mean, it's a bit of a cop-out
1:09:12
to say it's how we're wired as a species, but it might be the answer to the question that I'm asking
1:09:16
otherwise we'd never do anything hey that's a so we'd never leave the house because of risks we'd
1:09:24
never walk under a tree in case something fell out of it and landed on our head we'd never cross a
1:09:28
road we'd never we as a species we we have to sort of ignore danger because otherwise we'd never do
1:09:34
any i know it is i'm just articulating for myself yeah yeah risk assessment is that it
1:09:40
yeah risk assessment you'd never go swimming you'd never jump in the sea you'd never do anything
1:09:44
Some people don't go flying, even though it's the safest form of transportation ever invented
1:09:50
They're still terrified of it. I don't know that that adds to the point that we're making, does it
1:09:57
It's the same cause. Oh, you mean bogus, like glitching risk assessment
1:10:02
Yeah. I don't care about the numbers. I've just seen this big lump of metal flying through the sky
1:10:07
and I'm not having any of that. Yeah, I mean, there's a sort of perverse logic to it
1:10:11
Is it that, then? Is it just that we can't? So this is kind of what don't look up examined
1:10:16
And the thing about evolution is that it doesn't mean we're all going to end up the same
1:10:20
Otherwise, we would have, guess what, we would have all ended up the same by now. It's been going on for long enough
1:10:25
Some people feel alarmed. Some people operate risk assessment correctly. Some people don't
1:10:30
I wonder what the difference is. If not, some sort of innate, almost inherent or inherited approach to risk
1:10:37
I need to persuade myself that the risk is not real. I need to subconsciously persuade myself
1:10:42
Otherwise, I'd never sleep again. Otherwise, I'd be up all night tearing my hair out
1:10:47
Otherwise, I'd be absolutely animated by one issue and one issue only
1:10:53
So somewhere inside my subconscious, my lizard brain is going, calm down, mate
1:10:59
Calm down, mate. Don't be alarmed. Calm down, mate. Don't be alarmed. Even if you should be alarmed, there is an evolutionary advantage
1:11:05
Oh, this is good. Even if you should be alarmed, there's an evolutionary advantage to not being alarmed
1:11:10
if everyone else is alarmed and you're not alarmed you can sort of run around the place
1:11:15
nicking all their biscuits or you can get all the good stuff they're all busy being alarmed
1:11:19
you're quietly getting on with accruing more goods or wealth or whatever it is
1:11:24
I don't know if we need to extrapolate that much let's go back to that original observation
1:11:28
there's an evolutionary advantage to not being alarmed even when you should be alarmed
1:11:34
because it's better to be calm Craig's in Middlesbrough Craig what do you reckon
1:11:39
hi there James, thanks for having me on you're very welcome my personal alarm comes from
1:11:46
my daughter, she's three years old and she has Down syndrome and as for that she can't
1:11:52
regulate her internal body temperature oh gosh, I didn't know that we
1:11:57
see climate change through her thing with that temperature, so two years ago she struggled for
1:12:06
a week or two at the really high temperatures in the mid-30s
1:12:10
That was in August. Summer. For about a month or so by August
1:12:17
Seen it this week. She's been struggling with the heat. We've had her outside
1:12:24
for a very limited amount of time and then we have to put her into a cool bath. She just completely
1:12:29
is overwrought. It'd be like you or I having a fever. So that's very much
1:12:37
what triggers my anxiety about it, because it is on my doorstep
1:12:42
And, I mean, we're looking at a move from heatwaves that were relatively common in June
1:12:48
now becoming relatively common in May, and heatwaves in June becoming ten times more likely in Europe
1:12:53
than they were in the pre-industrial era. So what is unbearable for your little girl is becoming normal
1:12:59
Yeah. It's becoming more normal earlier in the year and will hypothetically become harder during those summer months
1:13:10
I mean, have you thought about taking drastic action or, you know, moving somewhere colder or anything like that
1:13:18
I hope that's not an inappropriate question or an insensitive one. No, no
1:13:23
I mean, we've looked more at domestic solutions to try and look at things like air conditioning and things like that
1:13:29
to try and make sure that our home is as comfortable as we can. unfortunately we're not really in a position
1:13:35
where we could move to somewhere cooler likewise Middlesbrough Middlesbrough is not exactly renowned for its
1:13:43
clement weather anyway historically it's cooling off normally of course but I mean this is the point isn't it
1:13:49
so has it genuinely brought home to you because you're obviously deeply
1:13:53
concerned for your daughter but has it changed the way that you
1:13:58
relate to the bigger picture be honest with me in in terms of that it's i've always been aware of it and um been trying to do
1:14:11
as much as i can to help from my in terms of like my actions with recycling and things like that
1:14:16
since since my daughter was born i've actually um now currently taking antidepressants partly
1:14:22
in quite a serious way because of this because of what i see my life's kind of brought her into
1:14:28
but I also and I don't know how bad this makes me
1:14:35
I'm potentially doing less than I used to before she was born
1:14:39
I don't I'd like to think it's not a case of whataboutism
1:14:44
but I see some of the reports about, and it's not China this time
1:14:48
No, of course, what's the point? 1% and things like that where I think it's the top 1% account for
1:14:53
70 of carbon emissions and something along those lines And we lucky that we can afford to get like electric cars We can look into solar panels and heat pumps and things like that
1:15:05
But I do still fight with that internal monologue of what's the point of that
1:15:10
when Elon Musk takes a private jet for a nine-minute flight to Florida. Yeah, I mean, again, that's another form of psychological response, isn't it
1:15:19
that may not make sense in a sort of utilitarian way. you know that you are making a negative contribution
1:15:27
or a smaller positive contribution than you could, but it all feels so negligible
1:15:31
that you take your foot off that particular pedal as well. So it has expanded beyond your daughter then
1:15:37
It's made you fear for everything. That's why you mentioned the antidepressants
1:15:41
It's not just that you worry about her. You worry about everything
1:15:46
Yeah, well, I think it probably would for all of us. I mean, you've brought a very, very powerful
1:15:51
personal perspective to this conversation um that that you know everybody would respond to in in some
1:15:59
way like you have but would everybody move from the personal to the political and take your own
1:16:05
daughter's a horrible experience a terrible thing to have to live with and tie it to the the direction
1:16:12
of international traffic the direction of global traffic and an extraordinary piece in the guardian
1:16:17
yesterday there are a couple of you have pointed me towards by um a chat called bill mcg heat waves
1:16:25
are becoming the norm this is what britain will look like in the year 2052 and part of me just
1:16:31
hopes it will be about as accurate as daniel hanan's prediction of what the country would
1:16:34
look like after brexit um but the other part of me knows that this is based upon science and
1:16:40
understanding knowledge and expertise rather than daniel hanan's predictions which were based upon
1:16:46
I got nothing, sorry here's Dominic Ellis with your headlines James O'Brien on LBC
1:16:56
it is 11.37 does this work, do you think? the creatures looked from Trump to Blair
1:17:03
and from Blair to Trump and from Trump to Blair again but already it was impossible to say
1:17:09
which was which Dominic's bulletin there just reminding us of that, reminding me of that conversation
1:17:15
in the first hour in the belated conclusion that it may not be as complicated as I thought
1:17:20
and Blair's just gone full pig, animal farm. Creatures outside look from pig to man and from man to pig
1:17:28
and from pig to man again, but already it was impossible to say which was which
1:17:33
And that's, I mean, the fascinating bit of it, of course, is the very, very clever people around Donald Trump
1:17:39
who you presume must recognise his derangement and his depravity, but then you sort of find yourself thinking well if they recognize his derangement and his depravity
1:17:49
how could they possibly be party to it to which the answer is rewards the rewards are so enormous
1:17:54
to have a bloke whoever that bloke is in that level of power doing what you want the person
1:18:00
with all the power to do even if you've already got all the money in the world and you know elon
1:18:05
musk and larry ellison are the richest men in the history of humans but they still want more
1:18:10
and one of the ways to get more is to drill baby drill
1:18:16
you're seeing here in a world where things are hotter than they have ever been
1:18:22
and a large part of the political establishment thinks that we should be making it even hotter
1:18:29
drill baby drill that's a pure WWE that isn't it of course
1:18:38
It's another one of those little chants that he comes out with because he is essentially a wrestling entrepreneur
1:18:46
Marshaling crowds of people with ludicrous soundbites and slogans. Make America great again
1:18:53
Drill, baby, drill. And Tony Blair's joined in, but that's not what we're talking about
1:18:58
Well, we are kind of. We're talking about the... This is where Ash, by the way, our maritime expert, always messages me saying
1:19:06
it's not Orwell, it's Huxley. You should be reading Huxley, not Orwell
1:19:10
But come on, man, on this one, the creatures outside look from pig to man and man to pig
1:19:14
Although the large T sign in Brave New World where all the population are praising the leader as a god
1:19:24
I think that's more over the horizon, mate, whereas the pig to man, man to pig thing
1:19:28
that's what we're actually looking at in our news today. And it's relevant to the environment
1:19:32
because how much of it is down to the failure to warn us
1:19:36
Anita puts it well. She is a risk professional herself, and as she writes
1:19:40
there are risk professionals shouting out loud about the risks of the climate crisis
1:19:44
but there are more powerful, louder voices in the media drowning out the scientific facts
1:19:49
That's obviously true. And not just the media, also in politics. But why would the last two days not break through some of that
1:20:01
is what I'm asking. I think that if I ever, if I, if I, I think I'm going to do a chapter on Don Perlman in my new book
1:20:09
I haven't told my publisher yet, but I just think everyone should be taught about Don Perlman
1:20:14
who is the guy who essentially invented climate change denial and who was in the pay of all of the big oil producers
1:20:23
It just seems to me to be a Rosetta Stone for understanding what Anita there has perfectly described
1:20:29
You just drown out the voices of science. You drown out the people telling the truth
1:20:34
Some of the people in my profession don't know how stupid they are being. Some of them presumably do, but would never admit it
1:20:41
Some of them don't think deeply enough about any issue whatsoever, let alone the future of our species
1:20:46
to actually arrive at informed conclusions. They simply ask themselves one question
1:20:50
What will get the biggest emotional reaction out of my audience with the least amount of exertion on my part
1:20:56
And then the answer becomes a pointless slogan like, drill baby drill
1:21:03
But Don Pullman is the guy you need to read up on, and you'll be able to soon
1:21:07
So that's true, what Anita says, that idea that the voices of reason
1:21:13
science, expertise have been drowned out, which reminds me, I've got a little Brexit story for you later
1:21:18
And yet you sort of think, what would it take to puncture the carapace
1:21:23
Do you know what I mean? What would it take to breach these barricades
1:21:27
that have been put up by media and politics, funded by fossil fuels
1:21:32
what would it take to breach our barricades? And you'd think it's never been hotter than this in May
1:21:37
would be a breach, right? That would get through. But it hasn't. You're not alarmed. I want to know why
1:21:42
Lynne's in Southsea. Lynne, what would you like to say? Oh, hello, James. Hello, Lynne
1:21:46
I'm going to put Southsea in perspective. It's the south bit of Portsmouth
1:21:51
Yes. So it's a kind of promontory, but it is a huge expanse of beach
1:21:56
that goes all the way round. and of course because of climate change
1:22:01
the council a few years ago put into plan a plan of action
1:22:05
to stop the houses in Southland being flooded so in stages the beach is being
1:22:12
fortified, strengthened and completely altered and redesigned, it's amazing what they've done in sections
1:22:17
so that reminder of what the significance of that is every time I look at that beach and then I see the next bit being done and the next bit being done is I think why is that being done And I know why it being done And even though that reminder is there on Monday yesterday and mobile today
1:22:39
that beach, those beaches will be heaving. They are absolutely solid with people
1:22:46
Yes. They're not alarmed yet they see the significance. But I see that significance every day because I work down near the seafront
1:22:53
and I know and I see it and it reminds me all the time
1:22:58
this is being done to stop us getting flooded, this is being done because of rising sea levels
1:23:04
But one day, my grandchildren wanted to go to the beach and then we got, you know, and I knew it was hot
1:23:12
and I thought, and as I was going through my mind, hearts, sun cream, and I'm thinking
1:23:18
this is May, this is May by holiday, this is not normal. and for one second I was alarmed
1:23:24
and I just thought oh my god, that's their future this is their future, this is what they're
1:23:30
inheriting from us that's the other bit of it, it's not going to be on us
1:23:34
and my brain and my intellect shut down because my emotions took over
1:23:39
and I just thought I cannot, cannot look after them insanely with that thought in my head
1:23:47
I cannot carry that thought and conduct my life normally No, the significance is so enormous that it's too much for you to comprehend and act on at that minute
1:24:00
You've got those children. I've got my own children now. I've got my grandchildren
1:24:05
And I've got to think about them now because if I think about my beach and why it's been altered
1:24:13
and the fences are up, there's a big portion of it now. Those tourists, those visitors are sitting right next to that and thinking to themselves
1:24:20
Why tell that bit of the beach? Close off. There are signs up
1:24:25
But it's not, it's not, I mean, it's not, and I know you know this, I'm just marshalling my own thoughts
1:24:31
Us going to the beach doesn't cause the, what's that great phrase they use for the
1:24:37
is it threshold inundation, they call it, don't they? Yes. South Sea's future
1:24:42
I know it doesn't, but because we live here. Yeah, no, I know
1:24:46
And we understand. And I thought, even though I understand that, And I can see it by just walking to the, you know, down the end of the road and the next road
1:24:53
and I'll see what's happening. And I know what that means, and I know the significance
1:24:57
and I'm putting it together with a very hot day and saying, yeah, it's right they're doing this, because our house will be on the beach if this isn't done
1:25:05
And yet I have to stop thinking about that. I have to stop being alarmed
1:25:10
I have to completely shut that reality off, or I won't be able to..
1:25:15
And that's what I meant by it being almost an evolutionary device
1:25:18
in their species programming. You wouldn't have any children. You know, I would say to my other children
1:25:26
that don't have children, I'd say, don't have any children, but they're inheriting, you know. Yeah, well, some young people have told me that over there
1:25:32
I mean, I remember the first time I heard it. It was a bit rude, I think. Well, in my head I was, hopefully not out loud
1:25:37
You sort of say, don't be such a wombat. You can't not have a child because you're worried about the environment
1:25:41
But I don't scoff at that anymore. People are feeling it very keenly
1:25:45
and it's another massive generational divide, isn't it? They don't almost have the luxury of turning off their brains
1:25:53
Yeah, so, I mean, that's why I stopped being alarmed, but then listening to you this morning, I got alarmed again
1:25:58
Oh, well, I've done something now. I must find out what, you know, what Greta Thunberg is saying at the moment
1:26:03
Yeah, I mean... She warned us. She did. I mean, it's Cassandra, isn't she, in her own country
1:26:10
All of these warnings are true, and yet the sense of loss is probably greater now than it was 10 years ago
1:26:16
That idea of the battle having been lost, I mean, I have that feeling on almost every political front at the moment
1:26:21
The powers of racism, misogyny and climate change denial feel absolutely insuperable and they always go hand in hand
1:26:30
It's extraordinary how inextricable, once you see those three things as being the essential pursuit of right-wing politics
1:26:39
They carry on making all the money by distracting us with the racism and the misogyny
1:26:43
and an awful lot, if not all of the money, historically comes from the fossil fuels
1:26:47
It's moving now into the technologies that ruin our lives while rinsing us of our earnings and our savings
1:26:55
But, you know, what can you do about it? It's too horrible to think about. So guess what
1:27:00
Me and Lynn, we're just not going to think about it. LBC. This morning, on Nick Ferrari at breakfast
1:27:06
Sir Tony Blair says Labour risks consigning Britain to cause relegation from the Premier League
1:27:11
He goes on, the Labour Party is playing with fire, or more accurately, with its future and that of the country
1:27:16
Labour MP and Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury, Dan Tomlinson. Is he right
1:27:20
No, he's not. Look, in the first quarter of this year, we had faster economic..
1:27:23
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10 to 12. Thoughts and prayers for Jamie, please, who's been in touch
1:27:30
Morning, James. This global warming is having dangerous effects we might not imagine
1:27:35
Last night, to reduce body heat in the marital bedroom, I moved into my son's unoccupied room
1:27:39
Not familiar with a different bed, at 3am I fell out, cracking my head on a chest of drawers and smashing my back on the floor
1:27:45
So, blooming global warming claimed yet another victim. Down with fossil fuels. The struggle is real
1:27:51
So, why aren't we more alarmed? Rachel's in Belfast. Rachel, what would you like to say
1:27:55
Hi, James. I'm so sorry. I'm just laughing and thinking of Jamie. Well, good. Thank you for your compassion and care
1:28:03
You're very welcome. James, I've spoken to you before and I've always agreed with you 100
1:28:10
but I couldn't disagree with you more than not caring about what..
1:28:15
It's not quite not caring. It's knowing that you should be alarmed
1:28:19
but not being is what I'm describing. It's almost the opposite of not caring
1:28:24
I don't know what it is but it's not that. Okay, well I can say that I feel very differently
1:28:30
because I'm terrified and I think the reason I'm terrified and not everybody is
1:28:37
and the question you were asking about why aren't people more frightened is because most people living lives
1:28:46
where they're detached from nature and when you are closer to nature
1:28:50
you can see firsthand what's happening around you and if you're seeing that, it's scary
1:28:56
and it's making you realise that it's not just a record-breaking it's actually something that is affecting the environment around us
1:29:03
and it's happening quite quickly. Well, I hope this doesn't sound glib
1:29:07
but why aren't farmers blocking up London to protest about climate change
1:29:15
Because no one's closer to nature. I mean, I don't think many people are closer to nature than farmers
1:29:19
and I don't see them at the vanguard of the net zero movement
1:29:24
or the campaign to get away from fossil fuels. I can't speak so much about farmers, certainly in the UK
1:29:33
but I used to phone you from Montpellier, and I'm now in Belfast
1:29:38
so I was Rachel from Montpellier when I spoke to you. Yes, absolutely, yes. I've now moved to Belfast
1:29:45
and I saw what farmers were struggling with in the south of France
1:29:49
because I was in the wine region, and they have had to take really drastic steps there
1:29:55
two years ago, and we used to walk around the vineyards virtually every day because they were surrounded
1:29:59
our house and we'd walk our dog and it was very beautiful but two years ago we saw grapes literally
1:30:05
cooking on the vine and the wine just that that season just was completely and utterly wiped out
1:30:12
and we saw it and what's actually happening there is that vineyards are being dug up and um the um
1:30:20
people making the wine are moving higher up into the hills or they're going higher up into the
1:30:26
northern part of france the wine region in in south of france is really really being impacted
1:30:33
that's interesting and i'm just looking at some research actually i'm wrong by the by the way 86
1:30:38
percent of farmers have been hit by extreme rainfall 78 by drought half by the impact of
1:30:43
extreme heat waves only two percent told the energy and climate intelligence unit that they
1:30:48
hadn't experienced extreme weather in some form and it's hitting their confidence um 300 farmers
1:30:53
across the UK were quizzed for this and 87% cited reduced productivity, 84% had witnessed a reduction
1:31:01
in crop yields or livestock output. So I suppose they're too busy farming, aren't they, to be
1:31:06
launching campaigns and signing petitions. But you're right, the closer you are to nature
1:31:11
the harder it is to ignore the truth. Yeah, and when you asked the question of what was kind of
1:31:17
a tipping point for you, a couple of years ago, and this was down in south of France, and it was
1:31:22
one of the reasons why we've moved so far north and specifically chose yeah we chose not to come
1:31:28
back to england because we wanted to be further north because we're in our 50s and we were looking
1:31:33
at the way that my parents have had a house down in south france for 20 years and i've been going
1:31:37
next for 20 years and we've lived there for the last six years and my god the weather is so
1:31:43
different to what it used to be it went from beautiful and really hot to unbearable road
1:31:48
melting heat. And we saw ourselves, we saw rivers dry up that won't come back. And the tipping point
1:31:56
for me was when all the hedgehogs were killed. And we used to go up to
1:32:00
those hedgehogs in our little town and we used to take them water at night because there was just no water anywhere
1:32:07
And last year, no hedgehogs. They've all died. They've just been wiped out
1:32:12
She knows it's my favourite ogy, the boiled frog. But I mean, it's
1:32:16
literally what's happening, isn't it? The water is turning up a degree, half a degree, all the time
1:32:22
until by the time it's unbearable, we won't be able to jump out of the pot because we'd have been cooked
1:32:28
So you've moved. You've jumped out of the pot. I have, but the really crazy thing about it is
1:32:33
I'm standing here talking to you from Belfort, covered in suntan lotion in a pair of shorts
1:32:37
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I shouldn't be, not in Maine, not in Belfort. Maybe this is the real reason why Donald Trump wants to steal Greenland
1:32:43
Maybe he secretly accepts all of Greta Thunberg's arguments and just wants to build the new Trump Tower
1:32:49
in the middle of some of the coldest places on the planet, securing the knowledge that while the rest of us cook
1:32:54
he'll be absolutely fine. Rachel, how lovely. I shall adjust my records accordingly to reflect the fact that you're no longer in Montpellier
1:33:00
but are now in Belfast. So that interests me a lot, that idea of consciously
1:33:05
because speaking to, I can't remember the fellow's name whose little girl has Down syndrome
1:33:11
and wondering whether you can make choices choices based upon um on heat and and most of us can't but if you are relatively mobile
1:33:20
and you can work more or less anywhere would you choose increasingly to go to go north to to head
1:33:26
away from the kind of weather we've experienced for the last couple of days because if it becomes
1:33:30
ever more commonplace it becomes ever more unbearable rachel thank you from belfast
1:33:35
to kings winford where keith is keith what would you like to say morning james hello it terrifies
1:33:41
me really, and that's an honest opinion. Good, I only accept honest
1:33:47
opinions on this programme, Keith. Why does it terrify you? Well, I suppose it's easy to say it does
1:33:53
and it doesn't really, and I've had a long time to think about it. I run a gardening business
1:33:57
Oh, yeah. We work outside. I could have probably worked that bit out for myself
1:34:04
Oh, obviously. It's the climate's changing quite dramatically. we're running a business at the moment
1:34:14
where I'm employing three people and we're moving into more continental hours
1:34:19
because of the heat and duration and our health is more important than my
1:34:26
business which is obviously affected financially but I'm more concerned about the long term
1:34:34
of my business we're having to adjust already but I'm planting at the moment, and I'm putting oceans
1:34:42
full of water into plants that we're buying for our own pleasure, I'm concerned, A
1:34:48
about people's health, and B, the amount of water we're using just because everybody
1:34:54
waters everything. I'm throwing water into plants which we should be saving for
1:34:58
drinking. And the plants that we currently have planted reflect the environment, the climate
1:35:04
we no longer live in. Yep, most of the plants are now dying off
1:35:08
or you're saying to people, you just, I wouldn't plant that there, I wouldn't plant it
1:35:12
Get a cactus. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, we finish now at one o'clock
1:35:19
All right, I've lost some income today, but I'm prepared to take that. But when you watch the council, other people that are out there
1:35:27
all day in the searing heat... You can't do it. Well, I mean, this is, I mentioned at the top of the hour that in Rome
1:35:33
a lot of people are being told to stay at home between half twelve and four
1:35:37
I mean, it's why the culture of the siesta exists, isn't it? Because the hottest part of the day is not the part in which you want to be particularly active
1:35:45
And Northern Europe is now moving into siesta culture weather. Yeah. And yet still we're not alarmed
1:35:51
We're not sufficiently alarmed to do, well, to do what? Maybe that's another reason that we're not sufficient
1:35:56
To do what? All right, I've been alarmed for five minutes. I can't think of anything worth doing. I'm going to stop being alarmed now
1:36:02
I got alarmed about three years ago in the spring. since February to May, June, it never stopped raining
1:36:11
No, I mean, that's the other point, isn't it, that some people either willfully or innocently miss
1:36:17
is that it's climate change. It's not just global warming. I mean, it's events and floods and rain
1:36:23
and all the things that are caused by a broken system. And maybe in our naivety, because we're British and we keep going
1:36:33
and, you know, we're used to not changing our ways, but, you know, more people will get ill
1:36:39
our resources will grow. Resistance antibiotics are becoming less effective as a consequence of the heat
1:36:48
due to some science that I can't fully understand. There's all sorts of stuff going on
1:36:53
Here it is. The climate crisis is accelerating a global increase in antibiotic resistance
1:36:59
So you've got a rise in salmonella antibiotic resistance between 1940 and 2023 of about 10%
1:37:05
And that is it. I mean, it's been a good hour, this. I don't think people are coming out of it any more alarmed
1:37:11
than they were going into it. But perhaps if you come to understand better why you're not alarmed
1:37:15
then maybe that's the first step you take to being more productively alarmed. But while I have you, Keith
1:37:22
what's going on at the Crooked House? I think the Crooked House is not going to be there for much longer It not there now but I can see it ever being built Because they were taught wasn there of forcing them to rebuild it or something like that
1:37:37
but it's not going to happen. I can't see them happening, but in this area, it's still a major thing
1:37:43
because people hold such affection. Of course they do. Of course they put Kings Winford on the map briefly, didn't they
1:37:48
It's that affectionate feeling, the black country's like that. Yes, no, you're right. A lot of my friends went to school in Kings Winford. I'm sure you can guess where
1:37:57
I know where you're from, yeah. 12 noon is the time. Thank you, Keith. We'll talk again
1:38:01
Two Keiths on the show today, one silent and one in Kings Winford
1:38:06
A funny one, though. We've not done anything on this extraordinary story of Peter Morrell or Nicola Sturgeon's husband
1:38:14
and the embezzlement of hundreds of thousands of pounds from her political party, from the Scottish National Party
1:38:22
while she was heading it up. It is, I mean, breathtaking, the sheer scale of his crime
1:38:29
But, of course, it's prompted an awful lot of people to wonder whether she could really have known nothing
1:38:35
There's a couple of no comments during her police interview that are being picked over today
1:38:40
I'm fascinated by the question of whether or not you could keep a secret like that from your spouse
1:38:46
James O'Brien on LBC. Five minutes after 12 is the time. It's funny, I glance to my right and I see that the Israeli Defence Force is now pushing further into Lebanon
1:38:59
I don't know what the official status is of that ceasefire. And I glance to my left and I'm reminded that we'll be joined at half past twelve today
1:39:07
by two men who work together to pursue the peace that seems perhaps more elusive than ever
1:39:13
One is Israeli and one is Palestinian. May Ozinon, who I think I've introduced you to before, and Aziz Abu Sarah
1:39:20
will be joining me at half past 12 today there's no pmqs today but we continue the tradition of
1:39:27
having guests in at least one of those post 12 30 slots and their new book the future is peace is
1:39:34
one that i thought you would want me to bring to your attention um not least because i said last
1:39:40
week that we must do a little bit more on looking at possible peaceful solutions rather than um
1:39:45
just constantly chronicling genocide and Western complicity. Six minutes after 12 is the time
1:39:53
So, I want to make something clear. I don't want you to phone me and tell me about affairs of the heart, all right
1:40:02
I don't want to hear about betrayals and adultery. I fully... well, look, I just don't
1:40:11
So all I want from you this hour is financial secret keeping
1:40:19
Because I think there's something, I don't know quite what it is
1:40:24
but almost mesmeric about the story of Nicola Sturgeon's husband rinsing her party, essentially her business
1:40:34
of more than £400,000 to buy items such as watches, bread bins and a luxury motorhome
1:40:46
And her maintained position that she had absolutely no idea what was going on
1:40:54
Now, I mean, there are a couple of things that have prompted some observers and commentators
1:41:00
to question her insistence of ignorance. A witness, it is reported today, has cast doubt on her claim that she knew nothing about a motorhome that her estranged husband had bought using embezzled SNP funds
1:41:17
She had previously insisted she was unaware even of its existence until it featured, and I quote now, in the police investigation in early 2023
1:41:26
it was understood to have been parked at her mother-in-law's house in Dunfermline
1:41:32
for two years before it was seized by police in April of that year
1:41:36
But a chap called Ryan Thomas Quinn has told The Telegraph that he saw the former First Minister shopping at an Asda
1:41:44
six minutes from her mother-in-law's home in autumn 2022. She was standing near the tills with a frozen pizza
1:41:51
This is journalism. She was standing near the tills with a frozen pizza and garlic bread
1:41:56
Garlic bread! She was standing and told another shopper that she had family living in Dunfermline
1:42:02
So I think the suggestion is that she was shopping at an Asda. Well, I don't need to tell you what the suggestion is
1:42:07
because he's told us. He's a journalism student. He said he often walked past Mrs. Morrell's home in 2022
1:42:13
and that the motorhome was always on the driveway. He added, I just find it unbelievable
1:42:18
that clearly she was at her mother-in-law's house and she didn't think to ask her the question
1:42:22
where did the camper van on the driveway come from? where did the camper van on the driveway come from
1:42:31
Not just camper vans, of course, but some lovely watches, very expensive, all sorts of things
1:42:36
Someone's made a list of all of it. It's almost unbelievable. So these are the things that he bought
1:42:41
without her wondering where all the money was coming from. A Jaguar car, not the animal
1:42:48
although that would be equally feasible given some of the cash that he was dropping around the place
1:42:52
an £81,000 Jaguar, of which £57,500 was stolen from the S&P. He sold it later and kept the money
1:43:02
There's a motorhome, £125,000 for a motorhome. He parked it on his mother's driveway and created fake invoices
1:43:10
He also bought a Volkswagen Golf for about £32,000, of which half was nicked from the S&P
1:43:16
He's a big fan of pens and watches. Quite hard as a man to treat yourself
1:43:19
I don't know whether you find this, chaps. not quite the man who's got everything
1:43:23
but there comes a point when you, Keith likes Lego, for example
1:43:27
I like video games, and I'll be getting one today, no prizes for guessing which one
1:43:31
but it's not something you can do every Saturday Do you remember, have I told you that when I was
1:43:35
in retail, and the world of journalism was proving peculiarly resistant to my myriad
1:43:42
charms, and I was thinking, I'm probably going to stay in retail now, I'm beginning to reach the
1:43:46
end of the hope that I was going to get a job in journalism, or get any shifts
1:43:50
even, on a newspaper and I was looking at the few... And I thought, I'd quite like to run my own shop one day
1:43:56
And do you know the idea I had? A shop where you could buy presents for men
1:44:02
And the idea, it would have everything in it, from watches and pens to a nice cigar room, perhaps
1:44:08
but presents for men. So a man could go in there and treat himself, or you would go there to buy..
1:44:15
It was a presents for men shop. I hadn't come up with a name. I still think that's quite a good business idea
1:44:20
I'll now get ten texts telling me that it already exists and that there's one in your local town
1:44:26
I nearly said Bury St Edmunds then, but I've got a bit of a problem with Bury St Edmunds at the moment
1:44:30
It turns out that an account linked to their Reform UK outfit
1:44:36
has been describing me in language that the Nazis once deployed. The Bury St Edmunds Reform UK account has described me, James O'Brien
1:44:46
me, little old me, as subhuman. and genuinely hideous language. Have we contacted them, have we
1:44:52
locally and nationally? I waiting for an apology Shouldn really be able to do that No one given me five million quid for my security Chinny reckon No one given me five million quid secretly for my quote security end quotes
1:45:06
Definitely not for buying houses for cash. I want to make that absolutely clear. That'd be a bit rum, wouldn't it? If the people who are getting five million quid for their security
1:45:15
what does that, how many milkshake squads does five million quid fund? A festering and fostering disgusting attacks on public figures
1:45:25
Have we had an apology yet, Martha? Any apologies yet? No apologies
1:45:30
I'll start the clock on that one, Keith, eh? So that's what I was going to do
1:45:33
I was going to open a shop for men, where men can buy nice things for themselves
1:45:39
if they need to treat them. Because that's the point I'm making. Sorry, I forgot completely why I was wanging on about that
1:45:44
There's not a lot you can buy as a bloke. If you're not that into your clothes, for example
1:45:49
I want to treat myself today. It's payday. I want to go out after the show
1:45:54
I want to get myself something that sometimes I might go to Fortnum & Mason. I walk around Fortnum & Mason
1:45:59
I don't want to spend ten quid on a Scotch egg. What am I going to buy? I want to buy some
1:46:05
I want to get a treat. And then you might get a bottle of booze. And you sort of think, that's not really a treat
1:46:09
And when I'm going to drink it, I'll probably have to share it anyway. So that's what I found quite helpful about this crime
1:46:16
There's quite a lot of suggestions there. Things men can buy for themselves. I mean, you need quite a lot of money
1:46:21
But pens. I've never bought myself a nice pen because I'd be absolutely certain to lose it
1:46:27
but I've now, I've been wearing this watch since I was 50, 40 that was a 40th birthday present
1:46:32
so I never bought myself a nice watch before because I would lose it, I always wore swatches
1:46:36
I lost this for about four years but I found it in a drawer when we were moving house
1:46:39
so now I think I might, a nice pen, a nice watch things that men buy for themselves
1:46:44
and he went to Fortnum & Mason Um, buying advent calendars that you could take food out of
1:46:52
and a musical Santa sleigh. So, you see, it proves my point, really
1:46:56
If you really want to treat yourself, you've got a few quid burning a hole in your pocket
1:47:00
but you're a man, where can you go? If you're a lady, flip it, you'd go anywhere, can't you
1:47:05
Um, you'd cut a swathe through the perfume counter at Arby Nick, but if you're a man, go to Hermes and buy a bracelet
1:47:11
Um, how could your wife not know? spent 450 quid on coffee mugs from La Crusoe
1:47:20
I'm just trying to think of what would happen if I brought those mugs home. What's that, darling
1:47:25
Oh, it's some new mugs. How much were they? Hmm. 442. What
1:47:32
For mugs? He spent 1,300 quid on a Miele coffee machine and another three and a bit
1:47:39
on a Dura Giga 5 Chromo coffee machine. But for some reason
1:47:43
he also dropped 80 quid on two kilos of gold blend in 2018
1:47:49
What's this man drinking? He's got two high-end coffee machines and two kilos of gold blend
1:47:54
It's probably for visitors to the house. If you come round my Keith, I'll make you a nice cup of instant
1:47:59
But, Eleanor, you can have a macchiato out of the posh machine. What's the biggest financial seek on
1:48:08
Because I don't want to cast a spurt. well, A, it would be potentially libelous to suggest
1:48:12
that there's no way Nicola Sturgeon wouldn't have known about this. But I want to come at it from the other angle
1:48:17
I want to come at it from the angle that actually you can keep quite big secrets from your partner financially
1:48:21
It's usually going to be hobbies. This bloke's hobby was stealing, effectively
1:48:25
but you hide the cost of your hobby from your partner. If I came out, do you know what I'd tell Mrs. O'Brien if I was doing it
1:48:31
I don't think I'd ever steal it. I'd tell her I got it in TK Maxx
1:48:35
So if I took home, like, an Armani suit or something like that
1:48:39
Mrs O'Brien said, I thought we were getting the patio done this summer. Why are you spending that kind of..
1:48:43
No, no, no, darling, it was in TK Maxx. It was reduced from £800 to £80
1:48:49
And I'd probably be able to get away with that, except that we don't really have separate bank accounts
1:48:53
so she'd boss me eventually. Can you do it? Can you keep..
1:48:58
Can you keep big financial secrets... No, not can you. Have you
1:49:05
Have you kept a big financial secret from your partner. And through the lens of your experience
1:49:13
we can cautiously and carefully examine the question of how, not whether
1:49:22
how Peter Morrell could have spent £400,000 on Top Gear without his wife wondering where the money had come from
1:49:33
I mean, her defence, if you're not aware of it, is that they have no children
1:49:39
She worked so hard they rarely went on holidays. They earned decent salaries and didn't spend it on much
1:49:45
so she just figured he had quite high levels of disposable income, which allowed him to spend £1,400 on two fountain pens
1:49:56
Well, actually, no more. £10,000 on a couple of watches, £4,500 on one pen, another £1,400 on two more
1:50:03
700 quid on a boldly striped great characters, the Beatles special edition fountain pen in 14-carat gold
1:50:10
650 quid on advent calendars at Fortnum and Masons, 2,618 pounds on salt and pepper grinders
1:50:21
On Lalique salt and pepper grinders. You see, I don't know. If Mrs. O'Brien brought some Lalique salt and pepper grinders home
1:50:30
it wouldn't cross my mind, to be fair, that she'd spent £2,618 on them
1:50:36
I didn't know that I lived on a planet where you can spend £2,618 on salt and pepper grinders
1:50:44
A silver wine coaster. Go on, have a guess, Keith. A silver wine coaster
1:50:49
What's that? Just a thing you put a bottle of wine on? It'd probably be like a little basket
1:50:54
not just like a coaster, like a silver bar mat. How much for a silver wine coaster
1:50:58
Have a guess. No? Hiya, Eleanor? How much on a silver wine coaster
1:51:08
£3,500 on a silver wine coaster. So if I brought home a silver wine..
1:51:15
If I was stealing money from an LBC, right, and I took home a silver wine coaster
1:51:21
that I'd spent £3,500 of LBC's money on, it wouldn't cross Mrs. O'Brien's mind
1:51:27
that it cost £3,500. She'd say, how much did that cost? And I'd say, £200, darling
1:51:32
Isn't it pretty? Pass me the wine, let's see if it works. So, I think..
1:51:37
Two and a half grand on a jewellery box. iPads and Kindles, like they were going out of fashion
1:51:43
A PlayStation 3, four Nintendo 3DS. This is like the Generation Game with Bruce Forsyth
1:51:48
Four Nintendo 3DS handheld consoles. PlayStation 4 games. FIFA 14, Grand Theft Auto
1:51:55
Battlefield 4, The Sims 3, Pac-Man. Bought an Xbox, bought a Nintendo Switch
1:52:00
Got all the games. but that would be okay. She'd think to herself, he can afford those
1:52:05
The stuff that's really expensive, I don't think it would have crossed her mind how much it cost
1:52:12
Normal people would not know how much Lalique salt and pepper grinders cost
1:52:17
It's the kind of thing you buy because you're rich and you don't know what else to do with your money
1:52:22
And I appreciate he wasn't rich and it wasn't his money, but it is such bonkers purchases What do I spend my money on you know It like what Robin Williams said about cocaine being God way of telling you that you got too much money
1:52:36
This is probably God's way of telling you you've got too much money if you're contemplating spending £2,618 on a salt and pepper grinder
1:52:44
It's 19 minutes after 12. It's not... I just want to know how easy it is
1:52:53
or how easy you found it to mislead your spouse or your partner
1:52:58
on how much you were spending on stuff. What would they or what were they shocked to discover
1:53:06
or what do they still not know? So, you might have just lied
1:53:12
I think between you and me, please don't tell anyone, that's what I would do. If I really wanted something that I knew was profligate
1:53:19
I'd probably just tell my wife that it cost a lot less than it really did
1:53:23
That's what's known in the trade as playing a TK Maxx, right? You spent how much on it
1:53:27
No, no, no, no. That was original price. I got it in TK Maxx. So what have you done
1:53:31
I just want to hear about it. It's hot outside. Let's have a bit of fun with this. So your partner has no idea how much you spent on X
1:53:39
All right? 0345 6060 973. That's all I want. So A, I mean, no one's going to be able to beat Peter Morrell 400,000 pounds, I don't think
1:53:50
But A, what was it? What did you do? What have you managed to mislead your partner about
1:53:57
The financial secret that you have kept from your partner. Obviously, if it's still a secret, you're unlikely to ring me
1:54:03
but you can use a false name if you want. And through that, we can perhaps examine the question of how on earth she wouldn't have known
1:54:14
Because I actually think it is possible, plausible, feasible not to know
1:54:18
This motorhome story notwithstanding, I think it's perfectly feasible that you just wouldn't question
1:54:25
the cost of some of these things and you certainly wouldn't contemplate the possibility
1:54:30
that they had cost as much as they did the catalogue of what he bought
1:54:34
that the police have put together runs to about 100 pages luxury cars
1:54:39
and then silly things at the other end of the scale like curry sauce and a corkscrew
1:54:43
so what did you do? what could you never tell your partner
1:54:48
the true price of? Bicycles. Men spend a lot of money on bicycles without them ever, without your partner ever knowing what the truth was
1:54:55
How much did you spend on a bicycle? Action figures, like collectibles and stuff like that
1:55:00
Lego. Lego. How much is the Millennium Falcon? I better not say
1:55:05
But that's all I want to know. The things, the things, we're not looking for evidence of crimes. We're just looking for evidence of successful cover-ups
1:55:11
And the number you need is 0345 6060 973. It's 1222. James O'Brien on LBC
1:55:19
Man-centric as well, because I presume, I don't want to get into any trouble
1:55:24
but I presume it's more likely to happen the other way round. Because the world of women is very mysterious
1:55:30
And some of the things that you might buy, like handbags and some face creams
1:55:36
and you have absolutely no idea, as a bloke, how much they cost
1:55:40
It easily, Mrs. O'Brien came home with something, I don't think this has ever happened. And I said, how much did that cost? And she said, 50 quid
1:55:46
And I said, oh, crikey, that's a bit steep. and it actually costs 500. Some of these face creams are absolutely off the charts, aren't they
1:55:52
It's extraordinary sums of money. What's that one called, the really fancy one
1:55:57
It's not called feuille de mer, that's seafood. Is it creme de la mer or something like that
1:56:02
So, I mean, I don't want women to feel excluded from this. The thing that he has no idea how much you spent on it
1:56:09
What was it and how much did you spend? 0345 60973. So, both ways
1:56:16
I can think of all the men's stuff, music stuff, like amps and stuff
1:56:20
But anyway, what was it? And what did you do? And did you get away with it? And if you discovered your partner, that you can come on the show as well
1:56:27
I want all your stories. All the stories. Reg is in Richmond. Reg, what have you got
1:56:32
Well, it goes back a long, long way. But I was supposed to be, I was on my first marriage
1:56:38
And one of the conditions of staying together was that I stopped gambling
1:56:43
Because I had a gambling problem. Okay, fair. And my friends at work said, are you a man or a wimp, you know
1:56:50
Yes. A man or a mouse, you know, don't be sort of bullied by your wife
1:56:55
Yes. And so I was still secretly gambling, not fantastically, but I was just still doing little bets
1:57:02
And I did a bet at Goodwood, Glorious Goodwood, where you had to get all six winners during that particular race meeting
1:57:10
Gosh. In an accumulator. Yeah. But it's a tote bet, jackpot. and it only cost one pound
1:57:17
I was going to say small stake, big, big, big payout. Big payout
1:57:21
And it produced enough, I want it. And I want enough money to buy a new MGB sports car
1:57:29
Crikey. And so I bought it, but then I had to explain it
1:57:33
Yes. And so I lied through my teeth and I found a plausible cover story
1:57:38
I was working for an American multinational at the time and I said they loved me so much
1:57:43
that they were giving me a new company car to show how much they appreciated me
1:57:47
which is completely ridiculous because nobody doing what I did as a copywriter
1:57:51
got company cars, but it covered me. But it's beyond feasible, though
1:57:56
She's not going to be an expert on what copywriters can and can't expect from their grateful employers
1:58:01
And, you know, it actually makes some sort of sense, doesn't it, that you might have got..
1:58:06
I mean, it's not as if she was choosing not to... She was choosing to believe a lie
1:58:11
It was a perfectly plausible... It was rather a good lie, actually. It was a plausible lie
1:58:14
and it sort of, you know, it excused me for turning up with a new, beautiful new sports car
1:58:21
which we both enjoyed. The marriage clearly didn't survive. You mentioned she was your first wife
1:58:29
Yeah, I mean, the fact is that I... I don't want to pry. I don't want to pry
1:58:34
No, no, no, sorry. I had a drinking and a gambling problem
1:58:39
which is a lethal combination. Yes. And that, in the end, sort of ended the marriage
1:58:46
I'm sorry to hear that. Did she ever find out the source of... Did she ever find out the truth about the car
1:58:51
I don't think she ever did. And I had a party on Sunday, and she very kindly came to it
1:58:57
That's nice. And I said that, you know, I've been unlucky in my marriages
1:59:01
I've had two. Yes. But very lucky with my in-laws. And she said, you were lucky to have me
1:59:06
And I was very lucky to have her, and I'm very fond of her still
1:59:10
But she had a thing about gambling. she was sort of Welsh, and she thought Methodist
1:59:16
and she thought gambling was sinful, even though we used to go racing all the time
1:59:21
But I haven't actually managed. It's probably a reflection on my poor journalistic skills
1:59:26
I haven't managed to pin down whether, if she's listening to this programme at the moment, she will be discovering for the first time
1:59:31
She might be. I mean, she might be, because it was not a thing, not a confession you..
1:59:36
But couldn't you have just said it was only a quid, darling? And look what I got
1:59:42
I know. It was, you know, truth beyond the realms of fiction, you know
1:59:47
Yes. Truth, stranger than fiction. Happy memories of both the car, the day out in Goodwood
1:59:53
and parts of the marriage as well. And have you sorted yourself out, Reg, if you don't mind me asking
1:59:58
Are you on a more even keel? Yeah, yeah, I haven't had a drink this century and I haven't had a bit since the Derby
2:00:06
Fantastic. There we are. No, good man. What a story. I mean, that's going to take some bit
2:00:10
I mean, listen, he's a nice bloke, but he's no Peter Morrell. Imagine parting a motorhome outside and saying
2:00:16
oh yeah, it was a reward of the company you work for, for my great service as head of the party
2:00:23
So that's pretty good, though. And I quite like that. but it is an example of creativity in pursuit of justification
2:00:31
It's coming up to half past twelve. I'm just sparing a thought for my next guests
2:00:36
who think they're turning up to have a conversation with a presenter of a serious current affairs programme
2:00:41
that covers matters Middle Eastern with a clear eye and a clean conscience
2:00:46
and they've just sat down in the atrium to hear me wanging on about people buying sports cars
2:00:50
and lying to their wives about gambling. We do occasionally veer into the shallow end of British current affairs
2:00:58
and we'll be veering straight back out of it after the half-past 12 news
2:01:02
when Maoz and Aziz join me to discuss their new book, The Future Is Peace
2:01:06
an important, well, I'd tell you two of the best writers in the country have praised it
2:01:11
so you don't need to hear what I think. Remarkable how we all need this book, said Michael Molpergo
2:01:16
while Simon Sebag Montefiore wrote, hopeful and inspirational. A Palestinian and an Israeli author writing of a unique friendship and their own journey across the Holy Land
2:01:29
And they'll both be joining me after the very latest headlines with Amelia Cox
2:01:33
James O'Brien on LBC. 12.32 is the time you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
2:01:39
We talk an awful lot in almost every imaginable context about intractability and about tribalism and about the footballification of almost every area of our lives where compromise is impossible and middle ground is non-existent and meeting is almost anathema
2:02:01
Never more so than when we cover matters Middle East, and particularly in recent years
2:02:05
the idea that there are bridges to be built between Israeli and Palestinian people
2:02:10
let alone Israeli and Palestinian populations, is easy to lose sight of, very, very easy to lose sight of
2:02:16
Which is why the friendship between my studio guests now, Mao Zedong and Aziz Abusara
2:02:23
is so important, so interesting, and, as you will discover, so powerful
2:02:28
Gentlemen, welcome to you both. Hi James. Thank you. I'll begin just by asking Aziz how you two became friends
2:02:35
How did this relationship begin? We met once in 2014 for about 10 minutes
2:02:40
Both of us work and travel. I found the imaginary tours. Maoz, the Jesus Trail and Abram Hostels
2:02:46
And then we became friends on Facebook and never talked again until October 7th
2:02:50
And after I heard that Maoz's parents were killed on October 7th
2:02:54
I decided to send him a message of condolences and to tell him that at that moment I stand with him and I feel for him
2:03:05
And yeah, he responded immediately. And not just responded immediately, he also talked about how he's crying not only for his parents
2:03:14
but also for the children being killed in Gaza. And so we both realize that what brings us together is much more than what divides us
2:03:21
It's an extraordinary moment, even as you relay it, and that the loss of your parents
2:03:28
Maaz Bilher and Yaakovi, could have prompted a great anger. Yes, but two days after losing them
2:03:36
my young brother Magin, whom you interviewed in the past, he told us, my three sisters and me
2:03:44
that we must make a family choice. And he encouraged us that this choice will be
2:03:48
that we are rejecting revenge. And he explained to us that by avenging the deaths of our parents
2:03:54
not only we are not going to bring them back to life, we are only going to escalate the cycle of bloodshed
2:03:59
We both, Palestinians and Israelis, have been trapped within for a century. And he said that in order to memorize, to memorize the legacy
2:04:07
and the teaching of our parents, we must create a new path
2:04:12
the path to peace and reconciliation. And a day after, when Aziz reached out to me, it was literally like a hand
2:04:19
Hand reaching out and saving me from drowning into the ocean of sorrow and pain
2:04:23
and now after walking two and a half years together quartering the future is peace
2:04:28
I'm so honoured and proud to say that yes I lost my parents and family
2:04:32
and childhood friends and people I knew my entire life on October 7th but I won Aziz
2:04:37
I won Aziz as a brother that's incredible where did the idea come from Aziz
2:04:43
for the book, for the journey because as Miles has just said
2:04:47
it's a story of a journey a journey across the Holy Land
2:04:50
what happened? it? It wasn't by us, it was by our Asian
2:04:55
Doug Abrams who heard us speak at TED he was there where we opened the TED convention
2:04:59
and he approached us and says this needs to be a book but what we decided
2:05:03
to do is because we both come from a travel background is to do this as a journey
2:05:07
and to travel 8 days through Israel and Palestine, visit Moses' home, visit my home
2:05:13
learn about what happened to his family learn about my brother who was killed in the
2:05:17
first intifado and then talk about not only the current reality the occupation, the hard things that's happening, which we do, the past, biblical stories, mythology, all of that
2:05:29
We bring everything together. And it's written as a novel, a journey and a novel, but also talk about the future
2:05:34
Because if we only get stuck with the misery of what we have today and with despair
2:05:40
then people will feel after reading the book, there's nothing I can do
2:05:44
And we wanted to make sure this is not what we leave people with, rather than what can I do to change the reality and get us a better future
2:05:51
What's the first thing? It's a mindset, right? Because you mentioned, Malz, that you could have drowned in anger and vengeance
2:05:58
and you didn't, a hand reached out to you and kept you above the water
2:06:03
But for people who haven't had, I mean, there won't be many people
2:06:07
many Palestinian people or Israeli people who haven't got a personal connection to loss and tragedy in some way
2:06:13
at some level of their family. But for those of us on the outside who look at the situation and think it a it a pointless dream now peace how do you keep that how do you get hope burning in
2:06:27
their hearts? Yes, what is pointless is the endless war we've been trapped within
2:06:31
and we keep saying that those who believe that bombs will bring quiet, that
2:06:36
war will defend and war will bring security, they are the naive and they have
2:06:41
been failing us for so long. And we are coming with the voice of reason with the with the
2:06:48
voice of logic and with pragmatic conclusions and and vision for the future. And this is
2:06:55
exactly what we are manifesting. And we are saying that the first step in reaching a shared
2:06:59
society, a shared future is to be brave and courageous enough to look to each other in
2:07:05
recognize first the other that he exists listening to his pain to his suffering recognize it not
2:07:13
necessarily agreeing to his narrative but to know that there is another narrative that's the thing
2:07:19
isn't it is that you know it's not a zero-sum game it's not a question of one quote side ending
2:07:26
up with a 100 percent victory and the other side ending up with zero percent it's about finding the
2:07:31
common. Yeah, I think any zero sum situation means we both lose. And there is no total victory. I
2:07:39
mean, we hear leaders and politicians talk about total victory, and there is no total victory. And
2:07:44
we are the proof that there is no total victory, that destruction happening, whether in Gaza or
2:07:48
the West Bank, the families who lost loved ones like Maoz's in Israel, that is not a total victory
2:07:55
And what we bring to people is an avenue of how you can help us make that change, amplifying the
2:08:00
voices of peacemakers. This is why we wrote The Futurist Peace, because without our
2:08:04
voices being amplified, we only hear the extremists. And I think some media on our
2:08:10
side of the world has responsibility for that as well. It's not a good copy, a journalist
2:08:16
would say, to people. This is a wonderful story, but in terms of the day-to-day grind of
2:08:22
the news agenda, bombs going off, massacres occurring, people being killed is always
2:08:28
going to dominate the news, and then the loudest voices of condemnation or defense or support will garner the bulk of the coverage. That must be
2:08:37
depressing. True, but I think even when that happened, peacemakers should be invited to be
2:08:43
part of that conversation and to offer an alternative, to offer a different vision. The
2:08:47
fact is, today's reality, there's only one vision being presented to people, whether abroad or in
2:08:53
Israel and Palestine. And when peacemakers come and talk about the bombings you're talking about
2:08:58
or the misery that people live through, because we have experienced it. We can tell a different story
2:09:03
We can push toward maybe reframing what can we do to respond to it
2:09:08
and the amplification, legitimization of us, even the push of what kind of policies
2:09:13
need to change here in the United Kingdom. That's something we can offer as well
2:09:18
How do Muslims and Jews need to work together, not see each other as enemies
2:09:22
here in the United Kingdom as well, and how we build a better and bigger coalition
2:09:27
to stop what's happening in Israel and Palestine and the hate that's happening here
2:09:31
How do you get a handle on how many people you speak for, Miles
2:09:36
Do we know how many people are on your side of history
2:09:39
your side of these arguments? So we already know that the book is a New York Times bestseller
2:09:44
Get in. And the fourth edition was printed in the US. And the requests we are receiving from media and from communities
2:09:51
and from venues here in the UK is on the rise. And we just had a People Peace Summit this year in Tel Aviv
2:10:01
Last year it was in Jerusalem when a few thousands of Palestinian Israelis came together
2:10:06
and proved that there is a peace movement on the ground, that Israelis and Palestinians refuse to see themselves as enemies
2:10:14
We refuse to be divided by Muslims, Jews and Christians, Israelis and Palestinians
2:10:19
And we keep saying if you must divide us, it should be by those who believe in equality
2:10:25
justice and peace and those who don't yet it's that simple as i mean because equality justice
2:10:31
and peace are universal values they're not specific to any nationality or religion or ethnicity
2:10:35
exactly and this is this is our message is this is shouldn't be you don't say what happened october
2:10:42
7th is wrong because you're jewish i say it as a palestinian and you don't say what's happening
2:10:46
in gaza and the destruction there is wrong because you are a palestinian or because you're a muslim
2:10:50
it's wrong and israelian as you can say it is wrong do you know on a personal level if you if
2:10:55
you'd allow me i sometimes feel you're not allowed as a member of the british media as a commentator
2:11:01
on the british media you're almost we talked about it on the show as if that position is being
2:11:05
squeezed out of existence unless you are on one side then you are inauthentic or you are not to
2:11:13
be trusted and yet really it's the most obvious yes you you're so right and we must tell you it's
2:11:18
not only here in the UK, we're the same. Yes, everywhere. In the US and in France and also back home
2:11:25
And what we advise is not to choose a side, but to choose a stand
2:11:31
And stand with us, stand with the peacemaker. And this is exactly, and you can also invite us more to LBC
2:11:39
You can use our words. So some will tell you, but this is against this or against that
2:11:44
No, but if Aziz and Mahoz believed Palestinian Israelis, choose peace prove that reconciliation is possible so of course we can achieve it here in the uk
2:11:54
this is very special for me personally as well as for my listeners but i presume um as is that you
2:12:01
have experienced that both of you have experienced pushback and resistance from within your own
2:12:06
community i think whenever you come with a new vision a vision that talks about something
2:12:11
different than the reality the broken reality have you will face some opposition you'll face
2:12:16
some people who mostly doubters, people who say, but can it really happen? And what we remind
2:12:22
Muslims and Jews is one, the name of God in Hebrew and Arabic is peace, is a salam and shalom
2:12:29
And how can our community that claim to be religious and believers in God, how can you claim
2:12:35
you believe in God but you don believe in the name of God and peace itself And so this is a conversation we come with I would say though there is a growing and growing number of people
2:12:47
who believe in this message. We just don't hear enough about them. And the problem is people having despair
2:12:53
And we need to activate those people to start speaking up and start acting. And we need also help and support from governments around the world
2:13:01
And this is something I must say the UK hasn't done enough for supporting peacemaking in Israel and Palestine
2:13:07
When you look at how much weapons came from the UK to our region in general, definitely to Israel
2:13:14
versus how much money the UK has spent for peace and education, it's a quiet disappointment
2:13:20
So the prime minister can get on TV and talk about peace as much as he wants
2:13:24
The fact is, where is his investment? If anything, there's been cuts to things
2:13:28
that deal with Israel and Palestine in the foreign ministry. And that needs to change
2:13:32
And we need people in the UK to pressure the government because it does affect you
2:13:37
A fire in the Middle East doesn't stay in the Middle East. Fire, as we know, grow
2:13:41
And so we need you to push your politicians and the people in power here
2:13:45
Religious leaders need to speak up more and say this is unacceptable
2:13:50
And we don't want another person to get killed. And we need to invest in peacemaking, not in war
2:13:55
And it is, I mean, you make it sound so easy. And maybe it is
2:14:00
It just takes the will. Maybe it is. And how do you maintain your optimism, Maud
2:14:06
I mean, in the face of so much... I mean, I guess in a short way
2:14:10
the reason why you pursue the path you pursue is because they've tried the other path and look where it's got us
2:14:15
So on one level, there's a sort of ineluctable logic to what you propose
2:14:19
But on a personal level, particularly... I have two answers. One is the logic, one, that all conflicts end in the end
2:14:27
This is a fact. so it's not a naive thought that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will be ended one day
2:14:33
it already was proven by history so it's end the only question is when
2:14:38
and we believe it can be fast and the more spiritual and personal answer
2:14:42
is that exactly the way my father raised me my father was the best farmer in Israel
2:14:47
for 58 years he was sowing wheat in the Negev, the Israeli desert
2:14:51
and every day he would share with me and my siblings the daily catastrophe in the field
2:14:56
the heat wave, the cold wave the drought, the floods, but he was as he was sharing how devastating the situation is now
2:15:06
he would always say, but next year I'm going to sow wheat again, because next year will be better
2:15:11
I will learn from my mistakes. I will consult with other farmers. I will get the best seeds
2:15:16
I will fertile the land, open it for the rainwater to come. And next season, I will sow again
2:15:21
not praying, not with the belief, knowing, knowing that next year will be better. And now
2:15:27
two and a half years after I lost my parents and after so many lives
2:15:31
lost in our region, I don't believe, I don't pray for peace
2:15:36
I know that peace will come Finally Aziz, what will people find
2:15:42
between these pages? Tell us a little more about the book that you've written together
2:15:46
As people read the book, they will find many stories because we believe what changes us
2:15:52
and what inspires us to be hopeful is not just a bunch of ysis
2:15:58
it's not just the statistics, but it's stories, stories that touch our hearts
2:16:02
And they will find poetry, they'll find people they'll fall in love with
2:16:06
and they'll want to come and visit with us, which in October, Maoz and I are leading a trip
2:16:10
that follows the book. So I hope you can join us. And maybe if I can end with something
2:16:16
that's very powerful about hope, because we believe hope is not something you find
2:16:20
it's something you create. And you create by doing something. Every time we act
2:16:25
We are creating hope. And there's a poem by Samih al-Qasim, a Palestinian Druze poet, in which he says
2:16:32
The day I am killed, my killer rifling through my pockets will find travel tickets
2:16:38
One to peace, one to the fields and the rain, and one to the conscience of a humankind
2:16:44
So I beg you, my dear killer, do not ignore them. Do not waste such a thing
2:16:49
But take and use the tickets. Please, I beg you to go traveling
2:16:53
and this is our message to everyone in the future's peace is to come traveling with us on the journey of the book
2:17:00
and maybe come and meet us in person as well. Gosh, I know I said I was asking my last question
2:17:06
but I just, I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about your brother. Taysir, I'm the youngest of seven, I'm what you call the oops child
2:17:16
I came nine years after Taysir was born and he was my protector, my friend
2:17:22
the person who took me to school my first day and we grew up yeah we we slept in the same bed
2:17:29
and and when he was 18 years old he was arrested from home and suspicion of throwing rocks and he
2:17:36
refused to confess to the charges so he was tortured which led to his death soon after he
2:17:41
was released and he was 19 i was 10 when that happened i honor his memory and absolutely my
2:17:49
my best to your brother and i should wish you happy eid today shouldn't i it is mubarak
2:17:55
to aziz and to all the muslim listeners and i'll wish it to my parents who i need to call many more
2:18:01
of them and to everyone who's listening to us um the future is peace by maoz in on and aziz abu
2:18:10
sarah is out now as you've heard it is an extraordinary story built upon an extraordinary
2:18:15
friendship and the work continues. They are together the co-CEOs of Interact International, a
2:18:21
non-profit dedicated to Middle East peace and I'll just end by saying I can't remember the last time I came out
2:18:27
of a conversation about your part of the world feeling better than I did before I went into it
2:18:34
This is the reaction we receive from all over the world of readers after they are reading The Future
2:18:39
of Peace. And The Future of Peace is published. It was out now
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Thank you. Thank you both so much. It is 10 to 1 James O'Brien on LBC
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It is 1252 an awful lot of love for For those two gentlemen coming into the studio and I can see why and it is important in fact I mean It couldn be more important could it to recognize people like that and quite I don know quite what this word is reassuring for me to discover that that fear that sense I have of our position being squeezed out of discourse
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as if you're not really allowed to feel equal horror at the death of an Israeli child
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as you do at the death of a Palestinian child. And nice to know you're not going mad
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Nice to hear two men like that who really know of what they speak, both mourning family members, killed by the other side, for want of better words
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acknowledging that it's completely true that the attempt to find common ground
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the attempt at universal humanity is being squeezed out of existence in public discourse
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not just in this country, but all around the world. Where's Carol, asked Cybert
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Yes, she'll be here tomorrow. That'll be on tomorrow's show. Don't worry
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We just got a bit overtaken by events. I know I said that yesterday, but it'll be true today
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And speaking of being overtaken by events, we haven't heard back from the Reform UK press office
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after I, or we, contacted them in expectation of an apology for the publication of some absolutely hideous comments about me
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about your humble correspondent, including one in which they described me, or the account that was run by the Bury St Edmunds and Stowe Market branch of Reform UK
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described me as subhuman. I'm just trying to find the original messages because they were gross
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I thought they'd jump at the opportunity to apologise. The National Press Office has not responded to our request for comment
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but the chairman of the local branch of the Bury St Edmunds and Stowe Market Reform UK operation
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has responded to our inquiry, really, I suppose you'd call it, is how on earth could
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this have happened? Not only how could someone have been so mean about me, but
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how could anybody have been able to post this sort of stuff
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under the umbrella of an official organisation? Here it is, fed up of this subhuman
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calling the multi-ethnic reform party membership and supporters racist. It's self-evidently not true
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This human garbage is the epitome of all things leftist. Bitter, divine... Divine
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Divisive. Sorry, that's a Freudian slip. Bitter, divisive and a sore loser
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Which is, I mean, a little odd if you're having a go at someone for being bitter and divisive
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I think calling them subhuman is probably a step in the wrong direction
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But, of course, the fact that it appears under the official account of the reform Bury St Edmunds and Stow Market operation
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was a cause for some concern. So we've heard back. None of this is a joke, by the way
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This is all absolutely real and happening. We've heard back from the county councillor who runs the operation
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the chairman of the Bury St Edmunds and Stow Market Reform UK branch. They've not apologised, as far as I'm aware
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They've taken down the sites now. and then to quote Simon Alders
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they don't have the quotes technical know-how to establish exactly who these bad actors are
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adding that they found the content quotes very disturbing end quotes although they didn't take it down until it was
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pointed out to them they have said I'm just double checking this
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if we have any information about who might have called me subhuman
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on their Twitter account. I'm like, I'm not going mad again, am I
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So if I have any information about who called me subhuman on your Twitter account
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then you'd be very grateful if we could pass the details along to you
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Well, can't you get Nigel to deploy those people that told him his phone had been
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hacked by Russian spies, Chinny reckon? The people that told him his phone had been
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hacked by Russian spies, despite the fact that the Kremlin would have had the phone number
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from the time that he was dancing for coins on Russia Today every 10 minutes
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Surely, surely those expert espionage investigators would be able to identify who had hacked your account
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and call me subhuman. I can't quite imagine the circumstances in which I'd know who it was and you wouldn't
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But anyway, that's today's dispatch from the, how should we describe it
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the more curious corners of British politics. I mean, subhuman is Nazi language
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let's not beat about the bush here, you're calling another person subhuman. It's very, very much the language of the Nazi party in 1930s Germany
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It's a precursor to all the horrible things that have happened from human history
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involve a very deliberate attempt to dehumanise people. And oddly, in the context of those sort of events in history
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journalists are quite often at the front of the queue because you cannot undertake the worst elements of human behaviour
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if people are accurately and clearly reporting it. So to call a journalist subhuman is always
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even if you don't like the journalist, like me on this occasion, it's always a very, very dangerous sign
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of a potential direction of traffic. So I'm sure that I'll be getting a personal apology
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from Nigel Farage, or indeed from the local party in Bury St Edmunds and Stowe Market
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imminently, because, I mean, crikey, nobody wants to sound like a Nazi, do they
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God forbid. Um, that's it from me for another day. Uh, don't hold your breath for that apology
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but you never know. You can hold your breath, of course, for Carol Valdeman's appearance on the programme
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Um, she has been on the receiving end of even more vicious abuse, um
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than I have from the same source. If you missed any of today's show
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you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBC app, where you can stay up to date
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with all the latest news, videos and opinions. You can listen to a range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Daily
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the best bits from this show every day. So download it now for free from your app store
2:25:08
Tom Swarbrick will be with you at four, but now it's time for Sheila Fogarty
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Thank you. I can confirm that James is human. Thank you very much, Sheila
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Well, you say that. You'd say that. Typical lefty. He's not a bot
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James O'Brien on LBC
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