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Andy Burnham won more than half of all votes cast in the Makerfield by-election, comfortably beating the combined total for second and third place parties Reform UK and Restore Britain. Andrew Marr discusses the topic with major names of the Labour Party. 00:00 | Andrew's views on the situation 03:10 | Alan Johnson, Author and former Labour Home Secretary 09:29 | Jess Phillips, MP for Birmingham Yardley and former Minister for Safeguarding and Violence Against Women & Girls Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #andrewmarr #alanjohnson #jessphillips #uknews #news #uk #ukpolitics #politics #labour #makerfield #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Moments like this don't come around often. In fact, in more than 40 years of reporting politics
0:07
I don't remember anything remotely like what is happening right now. I mean, the chance for an
0:13
unpopular, flailing government to change leadership, not because of some Westminster coup or stitch-up, as we saw in the Tory years, but because voters in a by-election did something
0:26
big and decisive. They voted for change, and change is what they want. And an unfamiliar
0:34
emotion, something almost forgotten, is spreading through the Labour Party. It's called hope
0:41
Hope that perhaps not everything is ruined. Hope that perhaps we can turn things round
0:48
and feel better about ourselves quite soon. Now, that's not to say that Andy Burnham is
0:56
the messiah. He's neither that nor is he a very naughty boy, as Keir Starmer loyalists would have
1:03
you believe. He's just a leader from outside Westminster who has noted that Westminster
1:09
politics isn't working and thinks he can change its culture and give people a bit more money in
1:16
their pocket and a bit of breathing space. I did talk about the need to change Labour
1:21
in this campaign and we've got to now take this moment to answer the challenges that have been
1:30
laid down. I did describe it last night as a last chance to change and I think that's how people
1:37
here kind of saw it when I was talking to them on the doorsteps and they said well Andy maybe
1:42
we can give you our support this time but you know it's not a blank check, it's not ongoing
1:48
You have to respond to what people here are saying. You have to do something to make life more affordable
1:56
to put more money in people's pockets, to give people more breathing space again
2:01
Not surprisingly, he sounded tired, but he speaks normally and he listens to the people around him
2:08
It's not rocket science, but it is political science. I think it's worth a go
2:15
I know he wants to fight on and not to walk away, but I really hope he doesn't put the country and the party through a long-drawn-out battle for number 10
2:25
That would be great for journalism. Mayhem mostly is. It would probably be quite good for this programme
2:34
Lots of stories to talk about, lots of twists, lots of turns
2:38
But it would be very bad for the country. Whitehall is already half-paralysed as it waits for a stronger centre
2:45
and ministers wonder whether they will be promoted, demoted or fired. With Russia rampaging and the world economy so fragile, we cannot afford months of drift
2:57
The Prime Minister says the country doesn't want the chaos of a leadership contest
3:02
He's absolutely right. And there is, for him, one easy and obvious way to avoid it
3:10
Now, there are so many moving parts to this, it is really hard to squint ahead
3:15
But Alan Johnson, the former Home Secretary and now author, is one of the wiser voices, wisest voices, I should say, in the party
3:22
and he's with me now. I don't want to flatter you too much, Alan, but great to have you on the show
3:27
You've been a good sort of loyal Starmer voice all the way through
3:31
but we're in a new situation now. Just describe it for us. Well, it's extraordinary
3:37
I'd never known by election. I'm a bit older than you, unfortunately, Andrew
3:41
but I've never known a moment like this. and you have to face the reality
3:45
That was a constituency where two thirds voted leave, by the way
3:49
That was a constituency high up on Reform's list of constituencies to take
3:57
And in one leap you got Andy Burnham there not just winning but winning well I think that was important by the way The margin that he won by was certainly something that has changed my mind And I agree with every word you said in your introduction
4:12
about Keir Starmer. But there's two realities. Reality number one, Andy Burnham's going to
4:18
stand for the leadership. Reality number two, he's going to win. So the one thing I would say
4:25
that wasn't in your preamble is no to a coronation. Coronation is, you know, yes to a coronation
4:34
No bad thing about having a coronation. You don't have an internal fight, particularly when you're trying to run the country at the same time
4:41
But Andy should go to the country. I'm not saying straight away, but I'm saying he should seek his own mandate
4:50
He's the one person that can restore trust in politics. politics and to do that yeah of course Callaghan replaced Wilson and there wasn't pressure to have
5:00
a general election Major replaced Thatcher etc etc but now after what happened with the Tories with
5:07
whatever it was four prime ministers in a fortnight the public will not stand for that and if you're
5:14
going to restore trust in politics and Andy probably uniquely placed to do it in all our
5:21
politics, not just politics on the left, in all our politics, he has to say at some stage
5:27
I'm going to seek my own mandate because the mandate he's got at the moment is the mandate
5:32
gifted to him by Keir Starmer. Alan, that is absolutely gripping. Do you think there should be an election this year then
5:43
Yeah. Well, if you think back, the precedent for this, and it's not exactly the same
5:48
of course not, is when Gordon took over from Tony. And we were 16 points ahead in the polls
5:54
And people thought this is something very different with Gordon. And there was a period
6:01
in which if he'd gone to the country, he'd have won a mandate. And he was about the same period
6:07
in, given that, you know, this isn't going to happen for a couple of months, that would be about
6:10
the same period that Gordon came in to replace Tony. I think Gordon's always regretted not going
6:19
to the country. And I think Andy, who was there with me at the time as chief secretary to the
6:24
Treasury, should bear that in mind. Well, I did the interview with Gordon at the time when he said
6:31
he wasn't going to go. And I can remember that moment. If Keir Starmer, who is quite clearly
6:36
angry and feeling hurt and bruised and badly done by if he was to call you now
6:43
and ask for advice what would you say to him? I'd say it's over Kier
6:48
and listen he's a bright guy he knows it's over he will
6:52
forever be in the history books as the man who turned us around
6:59
Labour from the second worst result in our history to the second
7:03
best result in our history in one five-year period, not like Tony who benefited from what Neil Kinnock and John Smith had done
7:11
et cetera. It was an incredible, incredible achievement. And that election victory
7:16
what still under two years ago, was an incredible victory. And he's a fighter. He is a fighter
7:23
But this is just stark reality. That result was stark reality. And we've got a chance now to do
7:31
things that, for whatever reason, Keir was unable to do. And we can, you know, rid ourselves of the
7:39
Mendelssohn legacy. We can rid ourselves of the winter fuel allowance debacle. And we can start
7:44
again, provided Andy is prepared to go to the country. That's very interesting. And the other
7:52
thing, the last thing I want to ask you about, Alan, is obviously, if he becomes prime minister
7:56
relatively quickly, then the first thing he has to do is to construct a cabinet
8:02
A few do's and don'ts in that very tricky, very elegant job
8:08
Inelegant I should have said You know I think the one thing I know that Andy is very good at and you saw this in the election campaign
8:18
he fought a brilliant election campaign. He resisted the temptation to get stuck into Farage, et cetera
8:25
You know, his big, big selling point is he's such a decent guy
8:29
and he's trying very hard to bring people together. So I don't think he's going to go in with some kind of hit list
8:36
of very good ministers he wants to get rid of. That's the other point about an election
8:43
You know, he's on a mandate that was won by Keir Starmer
8:46
and he's inheriting a cabinet of Keir Starmer. Now, if you have a knight of the long knives
8:52
it suggests that Labour's been disastrous over the last two years. And we haven't
8:56
And if you look at all the signs now, whether it's unemployment, inflation, small boats, net migration
9:03
whatever, renters control, you'll see things are moving well. And actually, the problem made just as part of that
9:11
might have been the messenger rather than the message. Well, as my producer had just said in my ear
9:18
still one of the best communicators in the Labour Party, Alan Johnson, thank you very much indeed for talking to me
9:23
I'm joined in the studio now by Jess Phillips, the former Minister for Violence Against Women and Girls
9:29
and a supporter of the other obvious candidate for Number 10, who I haven't even mentioned yet
9:34
but you heard recently on this show, sitting in that chair, wears streeting
9:38
Great to have you on the show, Jess. First of all, if you were talking to Keir Starman
9:45
what would you be saying? I mean, I would tell him exactly as Alan Milburn said
9:51
that you should go. Alan Johnson, sorry. Can I just say, I've had about four hours sleep
9:58
And Alan, anyway. One of the available Alans. I would tell him he has to go and that deep down he should know
10:07
that that is the right thing to do and the noble and the best thing to do for the country
10:13
I think that Keir Stommer is a man who cares about not having a big bun fight
10:18
and like Alan said, trashing all of the good work. I think he should be allowed to rest on his laurels
10:26
but absolutely, the writing is on the wall and it's time to go. Well, he clearly doesn't believe that at some level. So there is going to be a tussle. What about the argument on the one hand, a so-called coronation, in other words, a quick, swift change of power. On the other hand, a great big debate inside the party. I'm slightly sceptical about this great big debate of ideas because it tends to be a rather greasy Dutch auction by the time it finishes
10:53
Look, I think that Andy Burnham, and to again go back to what Alan was saying
11:02
I think that bringing people together and saying that we're going to do politics in a different way
11:09
are two very, very vital things. And I think his massive majority in Makerfield is a real testament to the hope that he provides to the country
11:21
So he comes with these headlines and this very, very good mandate from the people of Makerfield
11:28
But I do like 50% of the members of the parliamentary Labour Party
11:34
who are all members of parliament with their own mandate in their own right
11:39
have never met him or worked with him. And so whilst I don't want a long, protracted bun fight
11:46
where we just trash the record of everything the Labour Party has done
11:51
in the last 100 years. I do think that he... It should be a test
11:57
Well, he does have to come and prove himself to people. I really, really do think that
12:03
But what I really hope has happened today and happens over the weekend
12:07
is that the sort of contenders for the job, so in this Wes and Andy and Keir all sit down and talk about what would be the best thing and come to a conclusion But he should expect to be tested by the Parliamentary Labour Party
12:26
Harriet Harman suggests those three people meeting in a room, but they need a woman to, as it were, hold the ring
12:32
and that should be Lucy Powell banging a few heads together. I think that Lucy would do an absolutely great job
12:37
I do think you're right, like the idea of the entire future of our country
12:41
and the future of the Labour Party, just being divvied up between three men
12:48
does not sit particularly well with me. So, you know, Lucy and others, I think
12:54
could be invited into that room. But, I mean, that's a really good point, isn't it
12:58
We have to be convinced that what Andy Burnham is going to bring with this hope and change
13:04
is progressive. And I look forward to the next few days. But the only person whose shoulders any of this sits on currently about how well or badly this goes for the country is Keir Starmer
13:21
It's in his gift to make this as easy and as comfortable
13:26
And I know that Wes and Andy and pretty much everybody wants it to be as easy as possible
13:33
Let's just return to Wes for a moment. We haven't talked about him today. I thought the speech that he made earlier in the week about the economy
13:40
was about the most profound and coherent economic speech I've heard from a senior Labour Party person for a very long time
13:48
And I kind of know who he's been talking to, I think. But it did seem to me that it was a speech as much asking for the job of Chancellor
13:55
as of Prime Minister. Do you think the two of them could do a deal? I mean, look, I very much hope that, like I said
14:02
that they are talking to each other and coming to the conclusion that is the best, so they could do a deal
14:09
I'm not Lucy Powell in those rooms, so I'm not sure whether they are
14:14
But all I want both of them to ask each other, and themselves, and Keir Starmer
14:21
the only question that matters is, what do I do now in the next few days and weeks and months
14:27
that means that the Labour Party can continue to progress to improve the country and then beat reform at the next election
14:34
Literally nothing else matters. What are the things that each one of us is going to do
14:38
and don't care about, you know, like my fancy titles and job descriptions
14:43
Like, the only thing that matters is that is to face down the existential crisis of a reformed government
14:51
And look, Andy's got the chops, hasn't he? He's just doing a really good job and lots of people lent him their vote
14:56
which is a really hopeful sign in politics, not just because it's Andy and the Labour Party won
15:01
but because that is how I believe voters respond. And is this weekend, in your view, the fork in the road
15:08
in one direction leading ineluctably to a reformed government and the collapse of social democracy
15:13
in the other direction leading to survival? Yes. I mean, I felt like that fork was opening up for quite some time
15:21
And, you know, it seems almost unfair on Keir Starmer because in lots of ways we have started to progress many, many things
15:28
that I care very, very deeply about and that have affected, like, you know
15:32
8,000 children in my constituency have been taken out of poverty. So, like, I don't think that we should trash everything that has been done
15:40
That's an astonishing number, actually. I mean, I'm one of the top ten
15:45
I represent one of the top ten poorest parts of the country. And my constituency, by the way, is nothing like Makerfield
15:53
So Andy Burnham does have to come and talk to us about exactly what his prospectus is for the entire country
16:00
and the North-South divide thing that's been going on. As somebody from the, frankly, slightly anonymous middle
16:06
I'd like to put up my flags. But Keir Starmer, he has done some good things
16:13
and that shouldn't be trash. That shouldn't be forgotten. It's in his gift for it not to be forgotten
16:19
And clearly listening to you for Andy Burnham, an extraordinary achievement, but the hard work starts now
16:24
So, Jess Phillips, thank you very much indeed for that
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