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Labour grandee John McDonnell reacts to Andy Burnham's seismic victory in Makerfield and has a message for the Prime Minister following the win. The former Greater Manchester Mayor won 55% of the vote, beating the Reform UK candidate by over 9,000 votes. John McDonnell tells Lewis Goodall that he has been 'lifted' by the result in Makerfield, arguing that it proves that Labour can not only beat Reform, but they can 'trounce' them. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #lewisgoodall #labour #andyburnham #byelection #ukpolitics #news #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
I'm lifted by this. I think the whole Labour Party will be lifted by this because it shows we can not just defeat reform, we can trounce them
0:08
But we can only trounce them if we reflect on how Andy Burnham has done that and he's offered hope and change
0:14
And I have to say, and again, I don't want to be harsh with Keir, Keir has to recognise that actually I think it is time to move on
0:23
So let's plan it properly. Let's not divide the party. Let's try and do it with a bit of dignity and a bit of what we describe in the party's comradeship
0:32
And what if he doesn't? I think that's going to be very difficult. I can't. I've worked with Kia. So has Jess
0:39
I actually do think, I think he's a responsible person. I actually do think he'll put the party and the country before his own career
0:49
That's my view. And I'm hoping that happens. Jess, your reaction to that result
0:54
I mean, look, it's an absolutely phenomenal result, notwithstanding by-elections are weird things
1:02
And this was certainly the weirder of the by-election end of the spectrum
1:07
So it's a phenomenal result and gives him a huge platform to make those arguments when he arrives in Westminster on Monday
1:19
I think, look, I think it is he's absolutely right in what he said
1:24
I'm just going to say this, like the people of his constituency were some of the nicest people I'd ever come across in all my life campaigning
1:32
And yeah, I think I think he comes with a huge boost behind him for change that John talks about
1:40
And when I say don't fall for the spin, one of the reasons it is especially impressive to win it in this way is that this is exactly the sort of seat
1:48
Yeah, OK, it's been Labour forever. I mean, you know, for a very long time. That is true. In one sense, it's Labour hold
1:53
Yeah, yeah. But we know that it is also precise as a sort of seat that has culturally
1:58
philosophically, politically, it's been drifting little by little away from the Labour Party
2:03
And we saw what happened with the local election results. They were shocking. Absolutely smashed
2:07
Six weeks later, here he is converting that to an absolute majority in this constituency
2:12
What does that say? What is it about him that is enabled to do that in a way that the other candidates would
2:16
I think that you shouldn't discount what Andy Burnham actually said himself
2:20
is that lots of people lent their votes to this particular campaign
2:25
and that absolutely... And I think, actually, that is going to be really, really important
2:31
in the general election if, like, defeating reform is absolutely the sort of prime target that people have to do
2:41
So I think that there was a huge amount of tactical voting in this
2:46
But look, what it said... I mean, Andy Burnham will know better than me and what he said it is said is that people want change
2:53
And actually they said that by voting for reform in the local elections
2:58
and they're saying it now by voting for Andy Byrne and people are desperate for change
3:04
John, you talk about a transition. What would your ideal timetable be
3:09
If the Prime Minister is willing to accede to the idea of a transition, what sort of timetable would you think would be appropriate
3:15
Are we talking July? Are we talking party conference? What do you think
3:20
As soon as possible. You think so? So there are people who say, let's wait for the conference, give him that swan song
3:25
My ideal transition would be for the members of the Cabinet to see him over the weekend or Monday and have a frank discussion, plan an exit
3:38
There are some things that he might want to make sure is delivered. Hillsborough, for example, things like that
3:44
Let him lead on that and get that through. and then by the time we get to the conference in September
3:51
we'll have had a new leader in place and we use that conference to lift us again
3:57
The drawback of tonight, this is a tremendous victory for Andy. I think there's two messages
4:03
One, there's a progressive majority against reform and people have let their votes because they want to block reform
4:10
And secondly, yeah, they do want change. So there's the opportunity of discussing that change
4:14
But I don't underestimate the Scottish results tonight as well, which were pretty grim for us
4:19
And again, that is a discussion that needs to be had within the Scottish Labour Party about their leadership
4:26
What about the argument that Number 10 have been putting forward, which is to say that, OK, this is all very well and good
4:32
but now the Labour Party has got another job to do as a result of his standing in Makerfield
4:36
which is that there is a by-election which has to take place in Greater Manchester
4:41
And Number 10 are saying that they would like him to be part of that campaign and that that should happen first before the leadership is decided Well he can do it as he leader of the Labour Party In fact it be more authoritative if he is the leader of the Labour Party He would be the leader going back to Manchester to win that election with some authority behind him
4:59
So I actually don't think this idea of delaying is nothing more than a pretty..
5:04
I'm told that one of the principal voices in his ear would be Morgan McSweeney
5:09
Yeah, McSweeney's trying to delay and cling on as much as possible. All the rumours are, from what we know from yourselves in the media
5:16
is that Max Sweeney is back in action again. I think that's a disaster. Do you agree with that, Geoff
5:22
I'm not sure how much he is back, but obviously I have heard the same rumours that everybody else has heard
5:29
And look, we should try and remember why he had to leave
5:34
And it's a sort of, you know, pretty shameful, as far as I'm concerned
5:38
episode in the Labour Party with regard to Peter Mandelson. But fundamentally, it doesn't matter if McSweeney isn't like some sort of magician
5:49
It's down to Keir Starmer to make this decision. And even I respect John saying that like the cabinet should go in and there's quite a lot of lots of people should make this happen
6:00
It is down to Keir Starmer to make this decision. And I hope that he makes it
6:06
It is. But normally when you're in a situation like that, you need to be persuaded
6:09
But what would you say, I mean, Keir Starmore here and others, advocates of his
6:13
they'll say, well, hang on a minute. OK, Andy Burnham's just got his mandate in Makerfield
6:17
Very impressive result. Prime Minister got a mandate in 2024. A huge mandate
6:21
One of only four men to have ever got a majority for the Labour Party in history. Why should he defer, with the greatest respect to the people of Makerfield
6:28
to that one mandate from one constituency by comparison to the enormity of the general election
6:34
Here's the problem. In the local elections, we were down to 17% support
6:41
Andy made reference to it there as well. We're not just facing a threat to a Labour government
6:48
We're facing a threat to the existence of the Labour Party. That's how serious it is
6:52
We've never been this low in the polls before. And secondly, and again, this is brutal, but politics is brutal
7:00
Keir is the most unpopular leader we've ever had. and on the doorstep, confidence and trust is gone
7:06
and it's almost impossible to recover when you get to this stage. And we have to be, Kit and all of us have to be realistic
7:13
about the plight we're in. Do you think that this means, given the size of all that
7:19
Jess, I know you say you really want a contest, but it feels like it makes it less likely, doesn't it, a contest
7:23
Yes, yes, it does. I'm not sure. I don't think so. I don't think so at all because I think that people have to prove themselves
7:29
and I think with regard to the delay, the genuine sort of legitimate reason for if Andy Burnham is
7:38
or whoever, but if Andy Burnham is the rightful winner, is that all of the sort of access talks that go on within a general election
7:47
I do think there needs to be like a period where throughout any contest
7:52
that that sort of thing is happening, access talks are like during the general election with the civil service
7:57
service and because I don't want anyone who gets there to just fall on their
8:02
ass immediately I did swear I can't you know why it's half three
8:07
don't underestimate that don't underestimate I think Andy's preparations in advance I'm sure there's been lots of preparation in advance
8:18
but you think there should be a coronation and I I'm like just I prefer
8:22
leadership elections but the real try to stand against Gordon Brown Yeah, yeah, go back way back when
8:27
And I was to have the debate, but let's get real on this occasion. Keir standing, I think, would be an absolute disaster
8:34
And I think it would be damaging for him personally. The Jeremy Corbyn precedent. Yeah, but literally, who is there
8:41
I think if West Streeting stands, I think, look at the support in the party
8:45
He's got about 5%. It would be a sort of infantile self-promotion exercise
8:51
And from the left, from the campaign group left, we wouldn't get on the ballot paper again because the nominations aren't there
8:59
So much as I enjoy leadership elections, et cetera, and that's why I've gone into them
9:04
I actually think the reality is there won't be one. So we might as well get on with the job now of getting a new leader installed
9:10
And as a result of that, stabilising the situation and taking reform. Jess, do you think it would be an infantile exercise for your friend West Streeting to start
9:16
No, I absolutely don't think that at all. What I would also say is, how do I know that Andy Burnham is going to be a good leader of the Labour Party without a contest
9:26
I think you judge him on his past and his experience, very sad, both in the government and in Manchester
9:31
which you already credited previously because you worked with him But there a real politics to be dealt with here We faced with reform still on the rise even despite tonight
9:43
We're faced with, realistically, no other alternative available to us that would command the support of our members, let alone the general public
9:52
So much as I'd like, I left Kent on the ballot paper, and we showed with Jeremy anything can happen on that basis
9:59
What you showed with Jeremy is that the favourite never wins a Labour leadership competition
10:03
West Streeting is a new Jeremy Corbyn. You heard it here first
10:07
What we showed with Jeremy is that actually if you get the right policy programme
10:12
you can convince the members that you're... But I can't see either West Streeting
10:16
or Keir Starmer being able to do that and command that support
10:19
So it's just the real politics of where we're at. So just let's get on with it now
10:23
because I think we just need to get some of those policies implemented as rapidly as possible
10:28
But John, do you know what an Andy Burnham government would do differently to a Keir Starmer government? because he said he's going to stick to the same fiscal rules
10:33
That's the big macroeconomic question dealt with. What is it beyond vibes that Burnham would do differently
10:37
I think, for me, I have no illusions here about only huge radical change
10:42
For me, it opens up a space to have a proper debate and discussion whilst we're in government
10:47
And on the fiscal rules, I actually think, if you look at some of the advisers he's now put around him
10:52
Andy Haldane and others, I think there's a creative way of looking at those fiscal rules
10:57
so we can actually ensure that we can invest on the level that we need to
11:01
but also look at the redistribution of wealth and income in this country
11:05
so we can tackle the levels of poverty that we've got. We've seen in just six weeks, I mean, this is a scale of Burnham's victory
11:11
in just six weeks we've seen a 23-point swing from reform to Labour
11:16
I mean, if you take basically the same wards within the constituency
11:21
the results we saw six weeks ago when you and I were sat here, six weeks later Labour achieved a 23-point swing
11:26
It looks as though the, if you like, the right, the sort of broad right, and I include Reform, Restore and the Conservatives on that, that right has split dramatically in terms of the, what you'd call the centre and left that's held together, it's come together
11:49
And I think there's a huge amount of tactical voting to block reform here
11:54
And it's most probably going to be a lesson for the conversations that are going to be had across political parties on the sort of progressive left for the future
12:03
When you consider that the maker field, the reform result in maker field, essentially the vote has barely gone up since the general election
12:10
You consider how much less reform were polling at the general election by comparison to where they are now
12:16
There's a scale of, to keep them at bay in that way, Barnum has done something that no Labour politician has done in two years
12:24
No, no. He's been able to, as I say, he's been able to unite what you'd describe as the sort of progressive left
12:32
And so obviously the Greens have come to us in this election, the Lib Dems
12:35
And it looks as though we may well have picked up people who have been non-voters as well
12:40
But he must have picked, he must have attracted some reform voters back as well
12:46
And if you remember, when we had that discussion about the local elections, all the polling
12:51
was shown then, the real ysis was showing that we were losing, what is it, we were losing
12:57
16 votes from Labour to the progressive left, to Lib Dems, Greens and others, but about
13:03
10 votes to the right. So what he's done is he's pulled the left votes back, the progressive votes back, but also he must have taken some of those of reform votes too
13:14
And again, it does send a message about the sort of strategy that we need to pursue in the future
13:19
The strategy of trying to out-reform reform hasn't worked nationally that Keir Starmer has been pursuing
13:24
But this sort of progressive strategy does seem to have worked. Would you agree with what Andy Burnham said, though, in his speech
13:31
And obviously, to some extent, it's self-referential. But he said this is Labour's last chance
13:36
And presumably, if you do replace your leader now, you're not going to replace them again during this parliament
13:40
So in a sense, this is the last chance, an only chance, isn't it? I think that's what many of us have been saying for quite a while
13:46
because, as I said before, that dip in the polls was really frightening
13:50
Then reform victories in terms of what happened in local government. I think that gave so many people a shock
13:57
And they thought, as I said, people are saying, look, this isn't just about losing a government
14:01
We could lose the party overall. the bulk of the party. So this gives us a bit of hope now
14:08
And you'll see now, I think, when Andy gets back into Parliament next week
14:13
you'll see people, MPs, milling about in corridors, in the tea room, having a real discussion
14:19
about where do we go from here. And it's a combination. It not just about personnel and Keir Starmer It also about what is the political programme that we need to deliver now And it about you know we got to deliver on some of those early promises
14:33
And it is about tackling the cost of living crisis. It is about redistribution of wealth
14:38
It's about a scale of investment. It's interesting. Some of the advisors, as I said, he's brought around by Jim O'Neill
14:44
They're into heavy state investment, particularly around infrastructure, to get jobs and the economy going
14:50
So I think it's that sort of program we're looking at. Would you like to see, if Barnum does become Prime Minister
14:55
would you like to see a cabinet that reflects the whole of the Labour Party
15:01
Or do you think actually this is the sort of soft left's turn and actually Blairites and so on shouldn't be welcome
15:07
I've said it time and time again. We're a broad church. We need a leader that will unite the party again
15:14
And that broad church has got to have a cabinet which is left, right and centre. I kept saying to Keir Starmer, I kept on saying he admired Harold Wilson
15:22
And I kept saying to him and his followers, basically, well, Harold Wilson had a broad church cabinet
15:27
It was rumbust. It was rumbust. It actually made better decisions as a result of the challenges in those debates
15:33
So Andy has made it time and time again about the need for unity. I think he made it in that speech then
15:39
The best way of bringing about unity is to have that broad church approach
15:43
And then also the other thing that Andy said in his writings in the past
15:49
He's actually argued against the whipping system overall. I think you do need a whip of some sort
15:57
but you don't need the heavy-handed whip where people like me have lost the whip on policies that we then implement
16:04
He's talked about electoral reform. Is that something you'd like to see? Yes, I've been an electoral reform campaigner now for the last 10, 15 years
16:12
But he's right, though. You've got to put it in the manifesto
16:15
and have the people discern whether or not that's the policy they want. Because if we didn't have it in a manifesto, the Lords would just block it anyway
16:22
You know that if he does become Prime Minister, and particularly if he starts to deviate in a significant way from the 24th Manifesto
16:29
more and more people will say there needs to be a general election, that he needs to have his own mandate. Do you think that a Burnham victory or Burnham becoming Prime Minister
16:36
do you think that does hasten the next general election? No, I don't think so
16:41
I think most in the parliamentary Labour Party and the party overall
16:44
will want to see as near as the three years out as possible
16:48
to deliver on the ground. But on the manifesto, look, the last manifesto was pretty lightweight
16:53
and so broad-ranging you can interpret it in a whole range of ways
16:57
So I don't think he'll have any problems about interpreting it in a way which is more progressive
17:01
What legitimacy will he have? Because, I mean, he wasn't even elected to the general election. He hasn't got any legitimacy beyond what Makerfield has given him
17:07
Well, what the legitimacy he will have is from the parliamentary Labour Party itself
17:12
which was elected at the last election, and therefore if they elect him as leader and decide he's the leader
17:17
he'll have the legitimacy from that mandate. But as I say, the manifesto itself is so broad
17:22
it gives him the opportunity of introducing a range of policies. One of the things he's been campaigning on in particular is public ownership and control
17:30
And if you go on the doorstep, that's one of the key issues that people raise. But he's not going to nationalise things, is he
17:34
Well, I think water is falling apart anyway, so it's going to have to be brought back into public ownership of some sort
17:41
Keir Starmer, it must be a very peculiar evening. if he's awake. It must be a very peculiar evening. It will be morning for him. Do you
17:49
see him as a tragic figure in the Labour Party's history? Is that how you think history will
17:53
remember him if he goes now? I think it must probably will see him as a tragic figure. Yes, I think it will. But it's
18:00
a tragedy of his own making. That's the irony in all of this. The problem that he, it's
18:06
the point that you've just made. Once you break that broad church and you just have
18:12
around you, largely people with one agenda, control, and sycophants as well. And you stop
18:19
listening to people, you start making mistakes. And we've alienated section after section of our
18:25
support with policy mistakes. And it ranges from the winter fuel, the two-child limit
18:30
the attacks on disability benefits, and I have to say Gaza as well, some of the statements he made
18:37
So I think he is a tragic figure, but it's a tragedy of his own making
18:42
And all you have to do now is say, look, let's try and get a smooth transition
18:47
Let him go with dignity, but let's start learning some of the lessons of those mistakes
18:51
Just fine, I will know. Have we perhaps rushed to write off the two major parties with all the talk about new fragmented politics
18:59
I mean, we have got tonight a Labour hold and a Tory win
19:03
I wouldn't underestimate the Tory revival as the reform begins to break up and as the splits occur, as it has happened with Restore
19:13
So I wouldn't underestimate the Tories coming back by any means
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