Up next in 10
Ben Kentish is joined by Mark Francois, the Shadow Defence Secretary to discuss the latest slew of resignations from the Labour government, headlined today by his counterpart John Healey, and the Armed Forces Minister Al Carns. Challenged on defence spending, Ben points out that Labour are spending more on defence than the Conservative Party ever managed during their 14 years in power. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #benkentish #ukpolitics #politics #labour #conservative #uknews #debate #uk #defence #war #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
Is John Healy a loss to the government and the country
0:03
Yes, I believe he is. I've debated with John Healy a number of times down the years
0:09
particularly since he's been the Defence Secretary. And he's a deeply honourable man
0:15
So we haven't always agreed on everything. But at his heart, he's wanted the best for the defence of this nation
0:23
I believe that. And the fact that he's felt compelled to resign
0:27
and the tone of his resignation letter is something that the whole country should take seriously
0:33
Just one sentence from it. So this is him writing to Keir Starmer
0:40
Since then, you have been unable and the Treasury has been unwilling to commit the resources that the nation needs to defend the country at this time of writing France
0:50
Now, Ben, you yourself said, and I agree, the first duty of government, above all others, is to keep us safe
0:57
is the defence of the realm, and he is the man who was in charge of that day-to-day
1:02
saying that the Prime Minister of the Treasury have failed in that critical duty
1:08
And now Al Kahn, the Minister of State, the number of two in the department
1:14
my direct shadow in Parliament has resigned as well, and so have two Parliamentary Private Secretaries
1:20
So as of tonight, the MOD is in meltdown, And I think really, you know, for the Prime Minister, this is clearly the beginning of the end
1:32
The government says, Mark, of course, you'll be well aware of this, that they are investing a further £13 billion in defence spending
1:39
How much extra beyond that should they be putting into it? Much more
1:43
Kenny's policy, our policy is that we should be spending 3% of GDP on defence by the end of this poll
1:49
So that would be by 2029. There has been a running argument between the Treasury and the MOD about something called
1:59
the Defence Investment Plan, and that is where the money comes from in order to fund the
2:05
Government's Strategic Defence Room. Now Lord Robertson who led that review former NATO Defence Secretary former Labour Defence Secretary like P Lee very widely respected has been absolutely clear that we needed to spend 3 of GDP on defence
2:26
to deliver what was in the Strategic Defence Review. P. Lee's letter makes clear that even by 2030, all that was on offer was 2.68%
2:37
So Labour will fundamentally fail to deliver their own review. That's why Lord Robertson, Labour man to his fingertips, like John Healy, a few weeks ago
2:49
accused the Prime Minister of, you know the quote, corrosive complacency about the nation's defence
2:54
So these are Labour lighters turning on Keir Starmer, not me. Sure, and yet, Mr Francois, that 2.6% is higher than at any point during the 14 years that we've just had of Conservative governments
3:05
well under margaret thatcher when the burn of war was still up at the height of the cold we spent
3:11
we spent about five percent but at no point in the last 14 years that your party's just been in power
3:17
did you come close to spending three percent in fact you never exceeded two point in bankrupt
3:21
country in 2010 i wish we had been able to spend more now you all remember liam burns famous note
3:27
i'm sorry there's no money is that why you is that why you actually is that why you actually
3:31
Is that why you actually cut defence spending in government? Well, the country was bankrupt in 2010
3:39
And I've just quoted the note from the chief secretary at the Treasury at the time
3:43
the man who was supposed to be in charge of public spending. So the coalition government had to take some incredibly difficult decisions
3:49
But what we did do in 2014, when the Russians invaded Crimea
3:55
we backed the Ukrainians to the hilt. We then did that again in 2022
4:00
when Boris went to Kiev to back up Zalensky after the full scouting action
4:06
So I'm not saying we got everything right in defence, but what we were absolutely all in behind the Ukrainians
4:13
we gave them the in-laws. Sure, but overall... Hang on, we trained them to use them
4:19
If it hadn't been for Ben Wallace as our defence secretary, the Russians would be having dinner in Kiev tonight Sure but you would accept Mr Francois that within two years this Labour government has put defence spending up to a level that your party didn manage in 14 No I wouldn And I tell you why Because they keep saying that they are increasing defence
4:40
spending to the highest level it was since the Cold War. You've heard that many times
4:45
Well, point one, so why have the Defence Secretary and the Armed Forces Minister resigned? And point
4:51
2 that claim is not true why because in year they have had efficiency savings so that's
5:01
cuts in operational spending last year financial year 2526 they cut in-year spending in the nod
5:10
at treasury behest by 2.6 million this year 2627 the in-year cut and this is to things like ship
5:20
days at sea, flying hours for our pilots, exercises on swords to be blamed, is three
5:26
and a half billion now. But they are... I've got to finish it. You ask me
5:32
They keep saying they're spending more on defence. They're actually cutting defence spending. That's why it took a month
5:38
to get... But they're not as a proportion of GDP, are they? They are putting it back up
5:42
to where it was when you came to office in 2010 as a party, Mr. France, to 2.5%
5:47
If you listen to John Healy, clearly they're not. to deliver the SDR
5:51
John Healy's point is that that's not far enough, which you and I would agree on
5:55
But that's not to say it's still not higher than when you left office in 2024
6:00
Look, the world has moved on. The SDR authors... The Strategic Defence Review, yeah
6:07
Yes, authors of Lord Robertson, the man who joined the Labour Party, I believe, in 1961
6:14
said you've got to spend 3% of GDP on defence. The defence investment plan was how they were going to pay for it
6:21
We were told we'd have it last autumn, then we were faithfully promised we'd have it by Christmas
6:25
then we're absolutely definitely going to have it in the new year. And we're in the middle of June and we still haven't got it
6:31
And 2.68% won't touch the sides. We have a chancellor who has no affinity or empathy for the armed forces and a prime minister who doesn really either talks a good game doesn fund them That why his defence sector and his armed forces minister just quit on his watch
6:50
Just finally, Mr. Russell, where should the money come from? If the Conservatives do win the next election
6:54
where would you find those tens of billions of pounds extra money? By cutting welfare spending
7:00
The Labour Party are absolutely incapable of controlling welfare spending. For instance, we said we should reintroduce
7:08
the two-child benefit cap and use part of that money to fund defence
7:12
So you push more... It's a complete difference between us and Labour
7:16
So why is it children in poverty who should fund increased defence spending
7:21
Well, hang on a minute. What we've said is if people want to have larger famines beyond two children
7:28
that's their choice. What if they have them and then fall on hard times
7:32
You shouldn't have to subsidise them. What if they have them and then fall on hard times? You want to push them back into poverty
7:37
The first duty of government above all others is the defence of the realm
7:45
This government is clearly failing in that duty. That's why the Defence Secretary and the Armed Forces Minister have resigned from the government
7:55
I'm not disputing that, Mr Francois. I'm just asking why of all the places you could find the money that is absolutely needed to increase defence spending
8:03
it's impoverished children that you've chosen to foot the bill? No, that isn't how I would put it at all
8:09
And there are lots of impoverished children living in Kiev being bombed night after night by Vladimir Putin
8:17
And the impoverished children in the UK should therefore fall further into poverty to pay for them
8:22
No, I don't believe that, but I mean the Labour Party is pathologically incapable
8:25
of controlling welfare spending, and they're clearly pathologically incapable of defending this country
8:31
But when you say controlling welfare spending, they say lifting half a million children out of poverty
8:36
Look, there are other ways to control welfare spending. For instance, if people suffer from mild anxiety, we believe that's treatable and those people
8:46
should go to work rather than living on welfare. I don't think that's an unreasonable proposition
8:51
If that saved money that we could put towards the defence of this country, I think most people
8:57
if you stopped them in a high street, would agree with that
#news