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Andrew Marr responds to an 'extraordinary day in modern British politics' as Andy Burnham confirms he'll try to run for Parliament and Health Secretary Wes Streeting resigned from Keir Starmer's government. 0:01 | Marr says Starmer's response to Streeting was 'generous'. 3:40 | 'He can't pretend nothing has happened,' says Pat McFadden, Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. 9:20 | Zubir Ahmed, Health Minister under Wes Streeting gives his view. 12:58 | Justin Madders, Labour MP says he is 'in favour of Burnham's return'. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #andrewmarr #opinion #LBC #starmer #keirstarmer #labour #news #debate #ukpolitics LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Let's start by making nice
0:03
Keir Starmer has just sent a letter back to Wes Streeting after his resignation
0:07
and it is, frankly, very generous. Latest bombshell, meanwhile? Andy Burnham, the Manchester mayor, is setting out on his journey back to Parliament
0:17
Josh Simons, the MP for Makerfield, is resigning his seat to cause a by-election
0:22
From Wes Streeting's resignation to Angela Rayner being cleared over her tax affairs
0:27
and now this today has been one of the most extraordinary in modern British politics
0:33
Now, let's try to think ahead. There were two really significant passages around Streeting's resignation statement
0:40
and one of them wasn't even in it. The bit that was talked about how Keir Starmer wouldn't lead Labour into the next election
0:48
but should only be replaced after a battle of ideas, not of personalities or petty factionalism
0:55
Streeting went on, it needs to be broad and it needs the best possible field of candidates
1:02
He is reaching out to other parts of the Labour family, including, yes, the Manchester Mayor, Andy Burnham
1:08
He is not trying to arrogantly bounce Labour into a limited or premature contest
1:13
The sentence that didn't appear follows from that. It was the one going, and therefore I am today launching my leadership campaign
1:22
Because today he isn't. Now, Mr Streeting's enemies, and after today's events, which I think we can call Wexit, there are plenty of them, will say
1:32
Ha, ha, ha, that just shows he hasn't got enough supporters. The 81 he needs to trigger a contest
1:40
Now, he insists that is not right. Instead, he seems prepared to wait for a timetable to allow others to come in and for there to be a proper contest of all the best people
1:51
that is right in principle, but it's also clever tactics. If Streeting launches an early contest, and he still could
1:59
the left might well hold fire and allow a fight between him and Starmer alone
2:06
And the numbers suggest Starmer would win. The left would have demolished its most prominent enemy
2:12
and could then pick off the Prime Minister with a candidate of their choosing
2:16
at a time of their choosing. This is what streeting must try to avoid
2:22
Although, by the way, I hope this left-right thing is a bit overdone
2:26
and Labour can have a grown-up debate about how to get more growth about how best to defend ourselves, about how to deal with the border
2:33
and all the rest of it Right now, we wait to hear from many others
2:37
including Angela Rayner, Ed Miliband and Al Qans But the person we most need to hear from, of course
2:44
is the Prime Minister himself Does he now shrug off the Burnham News and the Wessing Nation
2:51
reshuffle his cabinet again as he's had to reshuffle the junior levels of the government
2:56
and simply, in Churchill's famous phrase, keep buggering on? Well, there's been a lot of discussion inside Downing Street about this
3:03
and it must be pretty tempting. The roof wouldn't fall in, the world would keep turning
3:08
But try to look ahead and imagine how it would be with more than 80 MPs publicly declaring they have no faith in you
3:17
Andy Burnham, around Westminster, disastrously low opinion poll and voter verdicts, and all of that in the knowledge that at any moment
3:27
after just one more slip, an eloquent former member of your own cabinet will come after you
3:33
That is no way to live, never mind to govern. On this extraordinary day, let's hear first from the government
3:40
I'm joined now by the Work and Pension Secretary, Pat McFadden. Pat, that's where I ended there
3:46
It seems to me to be the big point. It's really, really hard, given what's happened
3:51
for Keir Starmer to carry on as if nothing has happened and reshuffle and keep going
3:55
because there's so much hostility now expressed inside the parliamentary party and from senior ministers
4:01
You got both West Streeting and Andy Burnham circling It would actually be better for him to have a contest or to go Well he certainly can pretend nothing happened because it been a very turbulent week
4:15
Anybody who can see that and it has, I've got to be honest, sucked up all the energy when we've got, for example, good growth figures, good waiting list figures today and big challenges in front of us
4:28
So we can't carry on as though nothing has happened. But in my conversations with the Prime Minister this week, everyone has indicated that he wants to carry on, not because he's being stubborn or just sitting there in number 10 with the door bolted, but because he is less than two years into a five year term
4:52
He's got a deep sense of duty about the job he's been given. He was elected by the public in a general election a couple of years ago
5:00
And I'm sure he regrets all of this drama and turbulence. But he believes that he should carry on with the job he was elected to do
5:09
Big picture for an awful lot of British voters. This government is simply not working for them
5:15
And it may not be to do with the individuals. It may be to do with the structure of government and the way government works
5:21
And you could look at the elections we've just had and say, do you know what? in response to that, we need a big radical shift of how we do things. Andy Burnham would offer that
5:30
Wes Streeting would offer that. I'm not convinced that Keir Starmer can offer that
5:35
Well, I think we've heard more about personalities than programmes in all the drama of the last few
5:41
weeks, the last few days. The country certainly does have big challenges. I see them, for example
5:47
in the job I'm trying to do, where we've got almost a million young people not in education
5:52
employment or training. It's a long term problem. It didn't start at the general
5:57
election. It's a really big challenge facing the country. Around the cabinet table, I'm
6:01
sure if you spoke to my colleagues, other people would say the same thing
6:05
So we do need to take on these big challenges but I do think frequent changes
6:11
of Prime Minister over the past 10 years have probably allowed these
6:14
challenges to build up rather than be tackled and that is something to consider amid all
6:21
the drama and speculation that we're seeing at the moment. I think that's a very reasonable point
6:26
Can I ask you about Andy Burnham? Would you personally like to see him back in the Commons
6:31
Look, he's a big talent and I certainly don't want to come on to this programme or any other
6:37
and say anything to the contrary. In my dealings with Andy Burnham as Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, he has a shared
6:48
agenda that I share about getting young people into work, long term sick
6:54
and disabled people into work. We've had good conversations about that. The only thing
6:58
I would say is that doing it in this route through an unnecessary by-election
7:04
is always a risky prospect. History shows us that and we mustn't be complacent about the voters
7:12
here because in the end the people who will decide who the next MP for
7:16
Makerfield is, will be the voters in that constituency, not the outgoing MP, not any
7:22
aspiring candidate, not the NEC, not any of us. And you look at the numbers in the recent local
7:28
elections and you look at the general opinion polling there and Labour would have a heck of a
7:32
fight to win that constituency at the moment. If Andy Burnham has got the stones for it and fights
7:39
it and wins, then he can show how reform can be beaten. Well, whoever is the candidate, if it's
7:45
Andy, or if it's another person, I'm a Labour man, I've been a Labour man all my life, I will be there
7:50
campaigning for a Labour victory in that seat. Wherever there's an election, council election
7:56
by election, I want Labour to win. That will be the case here too. I've had some comments coming
8:03
in from senior members of your own cabinet who say, in reality, there is no way that Keir Starmer
8:10
or the cabinet can now block Andy Burnham. You know, the roof would blow off if you tried
8:14
Well look the last time this happened a few months ago there was considerations about the by itself and the consequential by or special election that would be in Greater Manchester
8:26
They'll have to consider all that and they'll have to make a decision
8:30
Now, whether the politics have changed or the internal politics have changed, I don't know
8:34
But even if they do allow Andy to be the candidate, as I say, we've now got a by-election
8:40
It's a tough by-election. And we will have to put our shoulder to the wheel to make sure that a Labour MP is elected there
8:46
A wee Scottish football ogy. There's a football club called Celtic. And they've got an interesting contest with Heart of Midlothian or the Jammie Dodgers going on
8:57
The parallel is that you as a government are kind of about five or six nil
9:02
And time is running out. You need all your best players on the pitch
9:06
Well, the most beautiful thing I've seen all week is Dyson Maida's overhead kick on Sunday
9:13
And maybe that's a good way to close. And that's a very easy way of silencing Andrew
9:17
Pat McFadden, thank you very much indeed. Now to an ally of West Streeting
9:22
the former health minister Zubia Ahmed, who resigned and called on the prime minister
9:26
to step down this week. A lot of people will say of West Streeting
9:30
he's one of those kind of shiny metropolitan types. You know, he's not got an ordinary background
9:36
Who is the West Streeting you know? Well, Andrew, before I start on that
9:40
Pat's just peeling away from the studio, and I think it's important to say that Pat and I are still on the same team
9:45
We agree with 95% of life. You know, we have some divergences about the current trajectory of the Prime Minister
9:51
But as Pat said, whoever is the candidate from Acrefield, we'll all be there supporting them
9:57
And if it's Andy Burnham, we'll be supporting him just as hard to get into Parliament
10:01
We do need all our talents on the pitch. and it's important that we're not frightened of talent
10:05
We embrace talent. On that point with Wes, if there's one thing that I've learned about Wes
10:10
I'm not someone that's come up through the normal traditions of Labour politics. I was, as you know, an NHS surgeon for 20 years
10:16
I still am. And I had the kind of good fortune to work with Wes as Parliamentary Private Secretary
10:21
and then a minister in his team. And I'm someone that's a pretty cynical Scottish surgeon, actually
10:26
So it's very difficult to impress me, but I've genuinely been impressed by Wes
10:30
his ability to bring different ideas together, his ability to bring in talent and recognise talent
10:38
and to coalesce and stitch a narrative. And that's why today, before he resigned, he was able to deliver some really, you know
10:46
consequential statistics that showed the NHS is in a much healthier state than when he found it as Secretary of State
10:52
I was very, very interested by what you said about the Makerfield by-election coming up
10:56
and getting on the pitch for Andy Burnley if necessary. because in his resignation statement
11:01
it seemed to me that Wes was very openly reaching out to Andy Burnham, who's on the other wing of the party
11:07
people would say, and saying we need our best people in. Do you think some kind of agreement could be done
11:12
between the so-called right or centre-right of the party and the left of the party to allow a kind of unified ticket
11:19
Well, look, I think we need to face reality, first of all. The first reality we need to face is the current situation is unsustainable
11:25
That was a diagnosis that I arrived at, And it's my moral duty if I arrive at that diagnosis to articulate it, in this case, to the Prime Minister
11:31
And that's why I resigned. If we then follow that on, I think now the best case scenario here is the Prime Minister recognises that
11:38
has agency still to dictate his departure and should be able to and have the dignity to do that
11:44
set out a timetable when a contest starts. And of course, a contest starts, people are free to come forward
11:50
But we must always be mindful as that contest starts that we are a broad church
11:54
and the nature of that contest is important as the numbers that are involved in that context
11:58
And in that sense, we will ultimately all have to come to an agreement and work together, whoever prevails as the new leader
12:06
But somebody, I think it was Lyndon Johnson, said, first rule of politics, learn to count
12:11
Does Wes actually have the number of MPs he would need? So, you know, through my conversations with the Parliamentary Labour Party
12:18
it's undoubtable that Wes is a generational talented politician amongst many generationally talented politicians He has a critical mass of support amongst colleagues up and down the country in all parts of the country So I think that is not the number not the issue You got to have 80 or 81
12:35
What I'm telling you is the number's not the issue because I think he does have that critical mass of support
12:40
I think what's more important is how you start off that contest and what the nature of that contest
12:43
is. It must be started off in the right way that facilitates
12:48
unity at the end of the process. And that's why I think the ball is now in the court of the Prime
12:52
Minister to set that timetable. OK, Zubia, thank you very much indeed for coming in and talking to me
12:57
Let's turn next to Justin Maddows, the former minister who left the government in the reshovel that followed Angela Rayner's departure
13:04
Justin, great to have you on the show. Your reaction to what we've heard from Andy Burnham today
13:10
Well, I think it was 54 months ago I came on your show, didn't I
13:14
You did. I said that I thought Andy Burnham should be the candidate in Gorton and Denton
13:18
And we remembered. Yes. We could see how that turned out. So I'm obviously very much in favour of Andy, if the NEC allow it to be our candidate in Makerfield this time
13:32
How annoyed would you be if the NEC blocked him? Well, I think it would be difficult to put that into words
13:39
But let's just stop and think for a minute about someone who we know is, you know, by all metrics
13:47
the most popular Labour politician in the country. is someone who is clearly able to reach out across what is a very fractured political environment
13:55
someone who would be running in an area that he knows very well, he's lived in for a very long time
14:00
I can't think of anyone else who would be a better candidate. So I hope that the NEC this time see the sense in Dawson
14:09
And I also, I mean, I know that many members of the cabinet think the same thing
14:14
Do you think he would be the best candidate to become the next prime minister? Well, I do think that, actually. I think he has shown a lot of reflections about how Westminster works or more accurately doesn't work in his time in Manchester
14:31
I think he's able to articulate the frustrations that we all feel with the way politics is
14:38
He is someone, I think, can cross the increasingly divided political scenarios that we face
14:46
And actually, he's got the ability, I think, to unite the party at the end of it, as you already heard
14:52
One of Wes's supporters, absolutely keen to go and support him. I think they're reaching their hands out at the moment
14:59
However, there's one group of people we must not forget, which is the voters of Meccafield
15:05
Because looking at recent polling, that puts Labour on 28 points and reform in that constituency on 41 points
15:17
The current MP was only 14 points ahead. And every single ward in the constituency was won pretty easily by reform in the recent elections
15:27
In other words, it is going to be one heck of a struggle for Andy Burnham or anyone to win that seat for Labour
15:33
It is. And it's absolutely critical for the Labour Party that we put our best candidate forward
15:40
I mean, the reality is the reason why we're having these conversations at all is because we're not doing very well anywhere
15:46
And we really need to have a change of direction. So I think the party will put everything they can behind what I hope is going to be our best candidate
15:57
We've absolutely got to show the people of Makerfield that not only will Andy be a great MP for him
16:02
that he would be a great Prime Minister. For you and reform, this is the great make-or-break moment, isn't it
16:08
You could lose this seat, you could lose Manchester to reform, but if Andy Burnham wins, he shows that he's the one politician
16:15
who can beat them. I think that's the very clear message that I think we will want to send out here
16:23
And, you know, it's the FA Cup final, the Champions League final
16:27
the World Cup final, all rolled into one, isn't it? But that is the position the Labour Party is in
16:32
it is existential, so we've got to find the right person to get the message across
16:35
that we are the best option for this country moving forward
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