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Lewis Goodall sits down with former Health Secretary Wes Streeting to discuss the Labour leadership race. 00:00 ‘There’s a deep unfairness in this country’ | Wes Streeting explains why Britain is “broken” 02:34 Would Streeting simply be “Starmer with more charisma”? He discusses Labour’s fiscal rules 04:45 Streeting says he’s the “underdog” in the leadership race, but wants the best candidate to win 06:16 He says net migration is “too high”, but the UK must remain open to global talent 08:40 Streeting warns the immigration system is allowing care workers to be “actively exploited” 11:50 Wes tells Lewis his thoughts on potentially becoming the UK’s first openly gay prime minister 12:48 With “rising hatred and prejudice”, Streeting says LGBTQ+ progress is being "turned back" Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #lewisgoodall #wesstreeting #politics #ukpolitics #news #uknews #keirstarmer #lgbtq #debate #labour #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
We also have an interview with Wes Streeting, the former health secretary, of course
0:03
He's running for Labour leader in a contest which currently is not quite taking place, but it sort of is
0:10
I began by asking him why he even wanted to be prime minister in the first place
0:14
when it seems like the job brings nothing but misery to those who do it
0:18
There's no doubt that the country is in a real mess and the challenges are enormous
0:25
us i think that's why i think we've got to show politics can be a force for good again
0:32
and we can show that politics and mainstream politics has the power to change things for good
0:38
and there are lots of problems to solve domestically and internationally but if there is one thing
0:44
over and above everything else that i think is broken about britain it is the fact that for the
0:50
first time in our modern history the prospects for the next generation are worse than the last
0:55
and it's not just that the data shows that and been counting number crunches in the treasury can
1:04
see that on long-term forecasts it is the parents and grandparents can see it in the prospects of
1:12
their children and grandchildren and there is a generation of people um you know in their 20s and
1:18
30s, so not that much younger than me, who are feeling it. They're living at home in their late
1:25
20s and 30s. They don't think they can afford to have kids. The prospect of home ownership feels
1:31
remote. And they have got this gigantic student debt where the goalposts have shifted, terms and
1:37
conditions have changing. And although it will be written off after 30 years, are feeling pretty
1:42
bloody miserable about that and are paying a higher marginal rate of taxation than some of
1:46
the wealthiest people in the country who paid off their loans and paid off their mortgages at the
1:52
same time. So I think there are big unfairnesses in this country. And I came into politics to make
1:58
sure that kids from working class backgrounds like mine who are growing up in poverty in Britain
2:02
today can have the same choices and chances as those most privileged backgrounds. But my
2:06
observation, Lewis, is that it's not just kids from the poorest backgrounds like mine I'm most
2:11
worried about any longer. Alongside them, it is also the kits of people who would normally
2:17
have considered themselves to be all right. And yet you're committed to the Prime Minister
2:22
of the Chancellor's fiscal rules. So fundamentally, you know, in terms of what really matters
2:26
for any government, the macroeconomic context, the macroeconomic levers, you're just going to be starmerism
2:32
with a more charismatic face and voice. No, see, I don't agree with that for two reasons
2:37
One is that, yes, you've got fiscal rules and they're important, not least because the debt to GDP ratio of this country is almost 100%
2:47
Yeah, which is something politicians rarely talk about. It's historically high. It's the COVID debt that has to be paid. Yes, and it's historically high
2:53
And you can't just play fast and loose because your borrowing costs come up
2:58
You've got less to spend. So rules, no problem with rules. You do have choices within those rules
3:05
So, for example, in the last few weeks, I've been setting out proposals for what I call the wealth tax that works, which is both equalising capital gains tax in line with income tax, because there are a lot of people who are disguising work in personal service companies and paying a lot less tax result
3:25
And I think that is unfair. And you've also got, you know, someone like my mum, who's a cleaner on the minimum wage, will be paying a higher marginal rate of taxation on her income than her landlord would pay when he sells up his property and gets a profit on the appreciation of the value
3:40
There are good reasons, aren't there, that successive governments have dismissed it. Yeah, and that brings me on to the second point
3:45
If it was just equalising capital gains tax and income tax and just saying fairness and work is work, which are two good arguments for doing that, I think you'd end up cutting off your nose to spite your face
3:58
What I would also do is introduce generous allowances for entrepreneurs, investment allowances, reinvestment allowances, because one of the ironies about how the tax system is currently designed
4:11
It's not just that there's an imbalance between labour and wealth and work and wealth
4:19
There is also an imbalance in terms of the incentives for people to use their wealth to invest in the type of growth boosting productivity enhancing startups and scale ups that get Britain growing
4:33
So that's why one of the things I think is smart about the policy I've put out is that it is pro fairness, but also pro business, pro wealth creation
4:41
If you're worried about the bond market, is there a case to keep Rachel Reeves in her job? I'm not getting into, like, we've not even started the contest yet
4:48
and I'm the underdog in the race and make no bones about that. You haven't started it. You're the one who needs to start it
4:52
But, you know, well, let's wait for the make-a-field by-election. We're waiting for you
4:56
It's very nice of you to say, Lewis, I didn't know you had a vote in this contest. The country's waiting for you
5:00
The country's waiting for this Labour Party paralysis to play out. I think, to be fair, we..
5:04
Even the Tories didn't mess us about this much. I think, to be fair, I want a contest
5:09
and I want a contest where the best candidates are on the pitch
5:13
and it's a genuine battle of ideas. If I think I'm the best candidate and I've got the best ideas
5:18
and the best pitch, then I shouldn't fear competition and I think we'll be stronger for it
5:23
But, you know, that is the thing, though, Lewis. I think there are choices to be made
5:27
With the wealth tax that works, I'm putting forward, you could be both encouraging investment
5:35
in those growth-boosting, productivity-enhancing startups and scale-ups that will help to grow Britain's economy
5:40
because in order to redistribute wealth, You've got to create it for wealth creation as well as wealth distribution
5:47
But also you can generate £12 billion, up to £12 billion worth of tax receipts
5:51
And I've already said one of the things that I would do is take the work the government's doing on early years and their new Best Start programme
5:57
very much like Labour's sure start from the last Labour government, and actually fund it properly so we can get the rollout going faster
6:03
so that those kids from the poorest backgrounds like mine start school at the age of five
6:09
ready to learn on equal footing with kids from the most privileged backgrounds
6:12
Something else, obviously, that affects the economy is net migration. Obviously, the government has cut it substantially
6:18
Some of that was a sort of legacy Tory-era stuff, but there's also stuff that... I think a lot of it is what Yvette Cooper..
6:22
Two Labour Home Secretaries have done as well. Is net migration now still too high
6:28
Is it about right? Or is it actually there as their capacity, do you think
6:32
in some areas for it to go higher yes i think this is nuanced i think that you know i say this
6:38
as someone who has always believed in the positive benefits of of migration so i'm i'm a you know
6:44
being a bleeding heart liberal on this issue i would absolutely accept that net migration has
6:50
been way too high and then on top of that you've also got um the both moral tragedy but also the
7:00
unfairness of small boats and people entering the country illegally which undermines confidence in
7:07
the system and we've got to deal with both of those issues and shabana mahmood is where i would
7:12
urge the government to either go further or do a bit of rethinking is on two fronts one is
7:18
the reason why britain in terms of like something like the ai revolution punches above our weight in
7:25
the world like we're third behind superpowers us china huge countries way bigger than our small
7:31
under 60 million people is because we are home to so much talent and if we want to be um a powerful
7:39
economic force on ai and technology in our creative industries if we want to be a science superpower
7:46
we need to be a home of global talent and i think we've got to make sure that as we're bringing down
7:53
net migration we are still a country that is open to talent when trump and his administration are
7:59
turning their backs on american science and adopting an increasingly anti-science anti-reason
8:05
approach we should be saying to some of those brilliant minds britain's open come here we've
8:09
got great universities world-leading universities four of the top 10 universities are here in
8:14
britain and we're doing great applied science in things like life sciences and medicine or
8:20
robotics and machine learning and AI. So Britain is open, come here. And then the other area where
8:26
I think we've got both a moral and practical obligation is thinking about my previous job
8:31
as the Secretary of State for Social Care. So lots of care workers came to this country before
8:37
during and in the aftermath of the pandemic because they were asked to. And they have been there for us. They put themselves at risk in a number of cases to care for us
8:45
and I met a number of people who feel not only uncertain about their future in this country but also feel undervalued
8:59
And I've also seen those care workers actively exploited by unscrupulous employers because the immigration system allows social care employers and providers to perpetuate a form of modern slavery
9:14
where they use the visa that worker has, sponsored by them, the employer, as the whip hand and says
9:21
if you complain about your poverty pay or if you complain about your exploitation or bullying
9:26
I'm going to get rid of you and I'm going to take the visa back and you're going to be deported. So I think I'd have a social care sponsorship body so that visas are issued by a national body rather than individual employers to clamp down on exploitation
9:40
but I would also look at being more generous to care workers
9:44
in terms of their right to stay in this country. They're not interested in claiming benefits
9:50
They're workers. They're here to contribute. They're quite offended by the idea they're on the take
9:54
But what they want is the certainty and stability of being able to put down roots
9:58
and being able to build a career in this country. And given we need these care workers
10:02
let's not cut off our nose, spot our face, and let's treat them morally with the respect I think they deserve
10:07
So if I read what you're saying correctly, you're supportive clearly of the overall kind of direction on immigration from the government and the Home Secretary
10:13
but you do think that there's a danger with the Home Secretary's proposed reforms and what she's doing
10:18
that it could potentially be too draconian in a couple of areas
10:23
that it could damage our economy if you're not getting the brightest and the best as you say
10:26
but also potentially immoral for some of the people, the care workers you just want
10:30
I think certainly too restrictive and I do think there is a moral obligation we have to the care
10:36
And naturally, one of the things I was trying to change as the social care secretary is to build a care profession in this country
10:43
They're not just care workers, they're care professionals. So would you urge the Home Secretary to think again on these matters
10:47
Yeah, and I'll be honest and to be fair to the Home Secretary, because I was having these sorts of conversations with her when I was the Health and Social Care Secretary
10:54
I always felt on social care that I was speaking to a sympathetic ear
10:59
And one of the things that's frustrated me about the character attacks on the Home Secretary, she's got a tough job and she's got to draw the line somewhere
11:11
And let's be honest, her predecessors, you know, all of those Tories who were talking tough, didn't grip the situation
11:20
She is. And, you know, being being the Home Secretary is never going to make you the most popular person
11:29
and being a Home Secretary when you're trying to get a grip on the immigration system
11:34
is never going to make you the most popular Labour politician. I finished my conversation with Ware Streeting by asking how much thought he had paid to the prospect
11:42
which hasn't received that much attention, which is perhaps noticeable or notable in itself
11:47
of becoming this country's first openly gay Prime Minister. I recognise that it would be one of those milestones
11:54
I'd say a couple of things. I mean, one is, you know, when I first got involved in the Labour Party as a teenager
12:04
The weird thing to do, of course. Yeah, exactly. Total weirdo. The theme music of the time was literally things can only get better
12:13
And throughout my adult life, I felt that, you know, I wasn't open about my sexual orientation
12:20
in fact i was terrified because i was growing up at a time when it was legal to discriminate
12:27
against people for being gay and the provision of goods and services it was illegal to serve
12:30
in the armed forces my teachers weren't meant to discuss homosexuality in schools yeah the age of
12:36
consent there were no marriage rights and and like i i grew up actually at that time like fearing
12:42
like i knew i knew that i was gay but i i feared like would i be discriminated against what would
12:47
that be like and I have seen how a Labour government changed laws hearts and minds how
12:54
like to such an extent that it was a conservative-led government with Labour votes and with the Lib Dems
12:59
and coalition that brought in equal marriage rights and I thought we've done it we've won
13:03
and now with what going on in this country with rising hatred and prejudice of a range of forms I do fear the clock being turned back I also found it quite hard at times as an openly gay health secretary in the conversation
13:26
about trans rights, knowing that some of the decisions that I took as health secretary
13:31
particularly around the provision of puberty blockers for young people, I did the right thing
13:40
based on medical advice and evidence. And I stand by those decisions
13:45
But the thing that I found really uncomfortable about it is that I knew that for lots of trans young people
13:52
LGBT people more broadly, and campaigners for equality, it was one of the first things that I had to do as the health secretary
14:00
and it was to uphold the decision taken by the Conservatives. And I know that what happened was people going
14:05
oh, no, like new government, same as the old government. And I actually, on a very personal level, really wrestled with that
14:14
And because I knew that although it was the right decision, I knew how it would make people feel
14:20
And that was hard. I stand by the decision, but I found that hard. And I do think that in this day and age, for all of the division of our time, do I think this country is any less respectful, inclusive
14:41
No. A lot of trans people would say that as a result of your government simply accepting what the Supreme Court said and treating it purely as a legal question rather than a political one, they would say that they feel less included
14:51
And I know that. And I don't doubt that and I don't dismiss it
14:56
And we've got to take it seriously because one of the things I've tried to do, and it's been hard, but one of the things I've tried to do is to, almost in the way that we did in the conflict between religious freedom and same-sex rights on marriage
15:17
try and find a way through that maybe not everyone loves but everyone can live with in the tensions
15:23
that sometimes exist between trans rights and the sex-based rights of women particularly women's
15:28
spaces and i've done a lot of listening to women's voices in this space and and a lot of campaigners
15:35
on violence against women and girls and and just understanding the context and how women have
15:41
fought for their rights voices and space over many years to think okay i get that i can see where
15:45
you're coming from and surely we can find a way through that maybe not everyone loves but everyone
15:50
can live with that and i feel optimistic about that even though it's it's been it's been difficult
15:54
but i do believe fundamentally lewis this is still a decent country it is a country that
16:00
wants to be inclusive but we're having to fight to defend progress as well as to advance it
16:09
and just this week we saw an absolutely despicable organization five pillars which is sort of a
16:15
Muslim-based website, published this absurd guide to how Muslims can navigate their way through
16:22
Pride Month. And the content is kind of pretty homophobic. And I just thought, you know
16:29
it reminded me when people were saying, you know, including members of the Labour Party
16:35
whereas I'd love to support you, but they'll never vote for you around here because it's
16:38
very religious constituency. And my constituents have proved people wrong four times now. I've
16:43
buck the trend in both directions, by the way, over the last four elections. And, you know
16:49
I've seen the way that the kind of extremists of five pillars have been jumped on by the anti-Muslim
16:56
extremists in this country to try and foment division. And yet, as I posted on my social
17:01
media this week, I, you know, love who you want to love, worship who you want to worship
17:08
love a gay christian whose marriage rights were voted for by the muslim mayor of the greatest city
17:16
in the world that is who we are as a country love will always beat hate hope will always beat fear
17:24
but this is contested ground it is a fight it is labor's fight it is my fight and it is a fight
17:31
we've got to win and it's a fight that brit will win because that's who we are as a country well
17:35
We're streeting. We've been in this room for about four days now, so I think it's probably time for you and I to say goodbye
17:39
Absolute pleasure to see you. Nice to see you, Liz
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