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Robert Jenrick has said that “the divide in British politics has become Reform’s workers party versus the Tory posh party”. He says the Tories are so “out of touch” they are no longer “the party of working people, of provincial Britain, of the towns and cities.” LBC callers share their views with Ali Miraj. 0:23 | Caller Paul in Peterborough believes Reform is “a massive protest vote.” 4:10 | Lynn in West Wycombe says Farage is a 'public school boy who seems racist'. 8:46 | Caller Mark in Liverpool disagrees with Ali over how far pro-business policies should go. 14:23 | Emma in Hampstead argues Nigel Farage is good at tapping into 'hope' at a hopeless time. 17:42 | Caller Grace in Ealing makes the case that Farage is not on the side of working people. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #alimiraj #reform #LBC #reformuk #nigelfarage #farage #uknews #ukpolitics #debate #lbccallers #starmer LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Is Reform UK now the party of working people
0:06
Because Labour used to be the party of working people, and Reform have just literally come and, for want of a better word
0:16
defecated on the entire Labour Party from a great height, right in their red wall backyard
0:23
I wouldn't class them as a party of ordinary people. Why not? basically
0:29
they don't appeal to me. I consider myself an ordinary person. I run a small business
0:35
and they definitely don't appeal to me. Okay. Well, they appeal to people
0:40
who just voted for them in 1,453 council seats. Yeah, I understand that
0:44
As I said to you, lady on the phone, the Conservatives had a similar bloody nose
0:50
from UKIP when they won quite a lot of seats at a local election
0:56
and then about a year, two years later, when the general election came along
1:01
UKIP didn't win a single seat. I could see reform winning another five or six seats
1:09
I cannot see them winning enough to form a government. Okay, so Paul, the lesson that you're taking from Thursday
1:16
is essentially that this is effectively a local little protest vote and everything will revert to the mean
1:25
by the time of the next general election in three years. So chill out
1:30
Chill out and go to the V&A East and go and see an exhibition on black British music
1:36
which I did last night, and chill out and relax. I don't see it as a little protest vote
1:41
It's a massive protest vote. It's a serious punch in the nose to Labour
1:45
that they need to move quicker and speak louder about what they've achieved
1:51
They've not spoke loud enough about what they've achieved for the ordinary working person
1:57
Right. So you think it's about communication rather than more fundamental things
2:01
Definitely. At local elections, I didn't have a single Tory candidate, Labour candidate, Green candidate or reform anywhere near my door
2:13
Nobody was out speaking loud enough to get the vote up. and from what I've had in my local area
2:22
the turnout wasn't that great. Can I ask you a question, Paul? When UKIP were winning local elections
2:29
and all the rest of it back in the day and giving the Tories a bloody nose, did you ever think that that might lead to a movement
2:36
that would result in our leaving the European Union? I've always known that we'd leave the European Union at some point. because
2:45
the fact that they brought in rules and the only country that ever followed every single rule was
2:52
Great Britain. And I wasn't surprised that we left. But I don't lay
3:00
that at the feet of Nigel Farage. I lay that at the feet of
3:04
a lot of people in this country who got really naffed off with the
3:08
European Union over the 50 years we were in. The only reason I
3:12
mention it, Paul, with respect is because I fear that if the conclusion from this
3:19
drubbing that has been meted out to Labour and the Tories, I mean, the Tories, I mean
3:25
we're not really talking about the Tories. I mean, they also got completely hammered. Yes, they had a few gains here and there, but they lost 563 seats. Yes, they've got a leader that's
3:32
reasonably popular and is doing much better than her own party. Unfortunately for Kemi
3:37
Bader-Doc, she can't ditch the Tories. Otherwise, she'd probably be doing quite well. But there we
3:41
are. The reality is that if the lesson to take from this is that effectively everything's going
3:50
to be fine as long as the Labour Party communicate better and there's no deeper issue here
3:55
I think that that sounds a little bit tin-eared. The question of whether he supports the working
4:00
class? No, I think he supports the rich. He takes money in order to make the rich richer
4:06
and that's what I think he'll do in this country. He said that the NHS is too expensive in the past
4:12
He says we can't afford the triple lock. He's a public school boy who seems a bit rapist to me
4:19
I don't understand why the voters would vote for him. I think he will destroy our services
4:25
not just benefits, but lots of services. And I think that will save lots of rich people lots of money
4:32
I think they'll laugh in their face. I think he likes Trump, he likes Putin
4:36
and he likes the Nazi party. Can you tell me what's good about that
4:40
But, Lynne, I don't need to tell you what's good about that because I'm not the one who voted in their droves
4:46
No, I know, and I don't understand. Yeah, but, Lynne, do you think all these people around the country
4:52
do you think they're all thick or stupid or deluded? I don't think anyone's stupid
4:57
but I think sometimes people listen to certain things. They're gullible, aren't they
5:01
They're gullible, aren't they, Lynne? They're thick and gullible, aren't they? Are they gullible? No. I don't think people speak
5:06
But you see, the thing is, Lynne, this is exactly the same mantra that was trotted out by people
5:12
who said they couldn't understand why people voted Brexit, and even now they talk about the lies and all the rest of it
5:18
whatever it may be. And there may be some truth in that, but we need to have a little bit of humility and understand or at least try and understand what people are telling us by giving the message they have I think yeah but I do think actually I do believe that Labour I like Starmer I don think he a good communicator
5:36
But I like his policies. I think he could be very, very effective
5:41
And I actually don't think he's done that badly. Considering we've had the wars we've had..
5:46
I understand. But the people have spoken, Lynn. ...and now in a lot of trouble. The people have spoken, Lynn
5:50
That's the problem. You might not think so. And I'm not saying he should go as Prime Minister
5:54
You heard me in the last hour. I was saying he shouldn't go as prime minister, right? But the results are what they are
5:59
Now, I found it interesting, Lynn, also that you mentioned the fact that Nigel Farage is a public schoolboy
6:04
Now, this is a mantra trotted out by – he went to Dulwich College. This is a mantra trotted out by a number of people, including some LSE academics who, on the LSE blog – this is my alma mater, by the way ��
6:15
does Reform UK serve the interests of the working class? This is classic of left-wing academics that come out with this nonsense, right
6:22
So I'm talking about my former alma mater here. So no wonder the UK university system is in a mess it's in
6:29
And they talk about the nativist aspect of the populist party's policies are well documented
6:35
But they also go on to talk about this. An unusually high share of reform candidates come from what might be best described as the petty bourgeois backgrounds
6:44
including small business owners, farmers and landlords, rather than from traditionally working class occupational categories
6:49
who cares where they come from if they are speaking for the issues and the values of the
6:54
working class. I don't actually care. So why mention it, Lynn? Why mention it then
6:58
Because I do think there's an elephant of deception. Why? Why? I don't know. I just
7:04
feel it. I just feel that we're being deceived. But Liz, you know what? The LSE and you on
7:10
this, and I don't mean this personally, I'm talking about people who make this argument, right? So it's not a personal thing. I just feel that we are culpable of this typical type
7:18
I don't have my opinions as much as anyone else. Of course you do. Of course you do. I hope everybody respects me like other people
7:24
Of course, absolutely, Lynne, and I do, of course I respect you, but I don't agree with you
7:28
On this particular point where I think we should judge people by what they do, not necessarily by what their background is
7:35
Do you not feel, though, that Starmer has done a lot for working people
7:42
Lynne, I think... He's had contracts, he's given them contracts, he's given them pay
7:47
is doing all sorts of things for renters right yeah sure he has the working people in his mind
7:53
i think he's well intentioned and i think he's done a lot to completely screw over working people
8:01
because on the face of it you think renters rights build great when you actually think more
8:06
deeply about it you think okay rental housing stock is going to go down which is actually going
8:10
to force up rents which is not going to help anyone that's going to be something the labour
8:14
Party is going to realise in the next year, right? I don't know. That could go either way
8:20
It could go, but... Right. They also have done a lot for workers' rights in terms of day one rights
8:26
and the minimum wage. Again, not realising that actually people need jobs in this country. The
8:31
way to create jobs is to not make it more difficult to avoid people, right? I do agree with you
8:35
but when you get people like Lord Salisbury, I think it was, that can't afford to pay people
8:41
And he's one of the very rich persons. You wonder why, don't you
8:46
Well, did I just hear you right in saying then that there was no evidence of corruption? Is that right? Did you say that, honestly
8:52
Well, not when it comes to the votes. Well, not when it comes to the votes
8:56
but a £5 million bung by a crypto millionaire a week before the guy decides to run for as an MP
9:02
might give some kind of indication, might they? So there'll be an investigation into that, as I understand it
9:07
We'll find out, won't we? Well, it's quite interesting that, because there was crickets on that before the election, wasn't there
9:14
Not in the media before, but it's all come out after the damage has been done
9:19
The media's doing its job. Okay, but on the substance of things
9:23
I don't know the details of the 5 million, 5 million rather than whatever it was
9:28
and we'll find out in due course, I'm sure we will. Are you saying that there should be no investment
9:34
and no donations by private individuals to political parties? I mean, what do you think
9:40
I'm saying, you've just said there's no evidence of corruption. Yeah. I'm saying that one of our, well, soon to be MPs
9:47
received a five billion pound, million pound gift from a crypto billionaire a week before
9:54
So how, so, and after that, and after that comes out with a load of crypto friendly policies
10:01
Okay. Well, that's, I mean, look, fair enough. I mean, we'll find out what happens on that
10:05
Lots of people come up with lots of policies when they take donations for lots of people. including, I remember Bernie Eccleston
10:10
back in the day giving the Labour Party lots of things in relation to Formula 1, but we won't go there
10:15
A lot of it's media and other things that you push and I've noticed you've said it again today
10:22
is that you tend to label business owners as hard working people. They're not exactly
10:29
sitting on their backsides, are they? Well, the bulk of your listeners, I would guess
10:32
hard working, but I'm a hard worker, I worked 72 hours last week, permanent nights. Yeah, okay
10:37
So I work hard, and you know, my hard work and taxes, they go towards these people that
10:44
you keep telling me work hard, because they pay poverty wages. So we have to give work and tax credit to these people
10:49
Okay, so Mark, that's understandable, and there are things like the minimum wage and
10:54
all the rest of it which are perfectly understandable You also have to realise do you not that if you trying to create growth in an economy if you make it more difficult for business owners who employ people to actually create jobs that not particularly sensible is it
11:09
I write to Sweden, Norway, Iceland, they all have tailed economies, do they
11:16
No they don't. They've got much smaller economies and they're much richer than we are
11:20
Yeah, well... Yeah, do you know Norway... Mark, Mark, do you know that Norway
11:26
has the biggest sovereign wealth fund in the world for multi-trillions? Do you know how they generated that wealth
11:31
No idea. I'll tell you. Oil and gas, which we are actually poo-pooing completely
11:35
and trying to not support in this country. That's how they got their wealth, Mark
11:39
What do you say to that? Who sold it to them, Ali? Sorry
11:44
Who sold all the oil and gas... No, no, no, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, at the moment
11:47
you've got Ed Miliband, who doesn't support oil and gas at all, and might be having to be drag kicking and screaming
11:52
because of the Strait of Hormuz to actually allow some oil and gas exploration
11:55
to take place in this country. So you've got to be joined up, Mark. If you're going to quote me
12:00
you're going to quote me Norway, right? Which is what you said. Which is going to quote me Norway
12:05
You're going to have to understand where Norway's wealth comes from and why it's so rich
12:09
And it's a much, much smaller country than us. So it's not exactly a fair comparison
12:13
No, I'm challenging your narrative, right? What's my narrative? Pay business owners money out of our taxes
12:20
Otherwise, the economy is going to collapse these hard-working businessmen. Well, I'd say work harder like we do
12:25
Mark, you know, the problem is, how do you think wealth is created in an economy, Mark
12:32
This is going a bit deep, isn't it, Ali? Well, it's a deep question. I mean, we're here to discuss deep things
12:38
Mark, how is wealth created in an economy? Yeah, well, it's created by businesses and workers
12:44
Right, absolutely. So, labour and capital, right? Barnish it. Right, absolutely. It's a partnership. I absolutely agree with you. I don't disagree with you
12:52
So business owners, someone has to take a risk initially, right, to take a risk to set up a business, correct or not
12:59
Yes? Yeah, well, it depends if it's daddy's money or not, doesn't it? Fair enough. I'll give you that, Mark. Fine
13:06
Let's assume, even if it's daddy's money, right, that they go and set up a company and they go and employ people and they take risk
13:14
Risk owners or risk takers need to be rewarded for the risk they take
13:18
Would you say that that's fair or not? Well, it should be. I don't know
13:22
It depends if it's a stupid risk owner, Ali, doesn't it? It depends what the business plan is, doesn't it
13:27
It's not as easy. If you've got a ridiculous business plan and risk money on it
13:33
then it's your fault, not the fault of the worker. Yeah, but Mark, speaking at cross-propuses
13:38
I'm not disagreeing with you. All I'm trying to say is that if you want to create wealth in an economy
13:42
it relies on people taking risks. Those people take risks, they create jobs
13:46
If their risks fail and they make stupid decisions or their ideas don't work, they fail
13:51
They lose their money and that's what happens and jobs get lost. If their business thrives and works and they're encouraged to employ more and more people
13:58
that creates wealth in the economy and those people should actually get a return
14:02
Now, that doesn't mean they should treat their workers badly. They need to be right. You shouldn't be exploiting people
14:07
You shouldn't be having people in chains underground in dungeons working for you. Of course not
14:11
Of course not. But also, you've got to have a balance here. If you're going to be piling on regulations and increased in minimum wage and business rates and national insurance on businesses, that's not going to create wealth, Mark
14:23
My point is, I think this comes down to hope and the fact that Labour, Conservative are very defensive
14:31
So tomorrow, Keir Starmer is getting up to make a defensive speech about why he didn't do badly
14:37
And Nigel Farage stands up and he's all full of hope on what he's going to do and how he's going to make a better life for us
14:44
And at the minute, we feel hopeless. And he's very good at tapping into that emotion of hope
14:52
But is he saying much other than saying that he's going to be tough on immigration and immigrants
14:57
I mean, what else is he saying? I don't think it matters what he said. What did Trump say
15:01
Make America look great again. The rhetoric was so good, people liked it
15:07
We need hope. Defensive makes us feel worried. and I think this is a very big psychological battle at the minute going on
15:16
Do you think... It's Zach Polanski. I don't like Zach Polanski at all, but look at the following he has
15:22
because he talks in these very determined, forceful ways that make people stand up and listen
15:30
and feel there is something they can get behind. What can you get behind with Labour at the minute
15:36
Well, I mean, look, I think certainly reform have tapped into disgruntlement and a feeling of abandonment and a feeling that people feel that they're not being
15:45
listened to by successive governments. I think that's what they've tapped into. I think immigration
15:50
is a large part of that. I think Shibana Mahmood's trying to do her bit. I'm not exactly sure if her
15:54
party's too enamoured by it. There's a piece, Emma, in the Sunday Times, What If Reform UK
15:59
Wins a General Election? It talks about the fact that Nigel Farage wants to potentially announce a
16:06
great repeal bill making Britain a deportation nation through a legislative changes including
16:13
repealing the Human Rights Act leaving the European Court of Human Rights, disapplying the Refugee Convention
16:18
Also it wants to set up apparently a British ICE deportation regime along the lines of
16:24
America Immigration Customs Enforcement Agency That hasn exactly ended well in the US at the moment has it And the reality is getting those things to actually happen is a very different story anyway
16:35
True. But the rhetoric is appealing to what people want to hear at the minute
16:40
I mean, you talked about Matthew Saeed's article, which I thought was phenomenal. But if you are that working person
16:46
if you are working and believe in working, like most of us do
16:50
but you see your hard-earned money being taken off you for people who choose not to work
16:56
there is a frustration that, why are you doing it? You aren't being rewarded
17:02
Yeah, well, Emma, that's the fundamental thing that I just don't think that the Labour Party
17:06
and people on the left get. I just genuinely think they have got cognitive dissonance on this
17:11
and I feel that they, fundamentally, their values are we want to help the downtrodden, the oppressed, and the vulnerable
17:18
And I understand the instinct of that, because that is a socialist instinct
17:22
and a lot of people can empathise with that, including myself in certain circumstances
17:27
but not writ large and not when people are extracting the Michael and not when other people are working their backsides off day and night
17:33
to put a crust on the table and feel that they're being taken advantage of, being taken for mugs
17:37
when the welfare bill in this country has grown exponentially in recent years
17:42
Yeah, I think as you said, he's managing to appeal to people's longing for hope
17:46
but I do think it's all rhetoric. I don't think he's really on the side of working people
17:51
If he were, then he wouldn't so regularly oppose measures to try to make life better for working people
17:57
Various policies and improvements to the options for working people he's kind of opposed to
18:04
It's not his fault that he went to public school or private school, however you want to describe it
18:09
Well, what's wrong with that, Grace? No, no, I'm saying it's not his fault. But I do think the fact that he then went into..
18:14
Why shouldn't we be proud of that? Why shouldn't we be proud of people who send their kids to a public school or an independent school
18:19
if their parents work hard and send them. What's wrong with us in this country
18:23
that we even have to say things like that, Grace? Again, I was going to come on to the point
18:30
that he went into commodities trading. I was going to say I'm not criticising him
18:34
for going to that particular school. However, in falling off of what you just said a moment ago
18:39
I wouldn't be proud of it. Why? Well, because I don't think that pride is helpful
18:44
One of the things I said to Farage years ago when he was on LBC, when he was talking about how proud we should be of the flag
18:51
is that ultimately it's got a cross in the middle because Jesus died for our sin
18:55
and so we should have humility and gratitude rather than pride. And I think that pride is not a helpful emotion
19:01
But what Farage really wants to do is to seize on people's pride
19:06
and actually it just puts people at odds with each other. And I think he's kind of trying to stoke up people's animosity towards others
19:13
rather than actually putting forward policies that would help the country as a whole
19:18
He's playing people off against each other. Well, I think there's a lot of playing people off
19:22
against each other happening anyway, which is being driven by the fact that people feel that nothing much is changing
19:27
And successively, they've asked for immigration to come down over years, and it hasn't
19:30
Now, that is beginning to come down now, finally under a Labour government, and partly due to what Rishi Sunak did
19:36
far too little too late, but it did actually have some impact towards the end. But just on this pride point, I'll tell you this, Grace
19:42
I went to Haberdash's A school in Hertfordshire. It's now rebranded itself Habs
19:48
because of a Robert Ass link to colonialism, but that's for another time
19:52
I have a great pride that I went to that school, but I also am very grateful and I understand that I had a great opportunity
19:57
and I have a certain amount of responsibility to use that opportunity that I was given
20:01
for the greater good, and I try to do that in the bit that I do by broadcasting
20:05
So I do feel pride in that. Well, that's very sweet of you, Grace, but all I'm saying is we shouldn't be hiding
20:11
our backgrounds in any way. If you were lucky enough to go and your parents worked hard and you had that, let's wear it on our sleeve
20:20
Again, I'm not saying that anyone should in any way be ashamed of the school that their parents sent them to
20:24
but I also don't think it should necessarily be a cause for pride. And I think it's really important to keep in mind that a lot of parents work flipping hard
20:31
but they couldn't afford it when they're kids to be sleeping. I agree with that too. Grace, how do we conclude on this then
20:37
In terms of, look, Farage is doing well, his party's doing well
20:42
where does that leave us as a country and where does it leave Farage because my fear is this I
20:47
tell you this I understand exactly why people are voting for Nigel Farage and his party I fully
20:53
understand it and I empathize with some of the reasons why my fear is that if it's all based on
20:58
hope and there's going to be no delivery from Reform UK if they were to come to government then
21:02
I tell you what all bets are off and we're going to be looking at Tommy Robinson and that's what
21:06
worries me deeply. Yeah, I would concur. I was thinking in the last few days, seeing the council
21:12
results come in, a lot of councils around the country now will have a lot of reform candidates
21:17
And so far as I've heard, where reform has been running councils, they have put people's council taxes
21:22
up significantly after saying they would bring them down. And it makes me think, if we have
21:26
more and more reform people running the country, maybe they're not going to deliver
21:30
exactly what people are hoping for. And I worry about that slightly
21:34
but that's no disrespect to councillors who are supporting reform and who are going to work very hard
21:38
But you know, Grace, it might actually be a good test, because if people have put them in a local government
21:42
and now, as Nigel Farage has told his party, you now need to deliver. People are going to partly judge whether they're going to vote for Reform UK
21:48
at the next general election based on what you do or don't do in your own area
21:52
So actually, electing them might not be a bad thing, because you actually put them under the scrutiny and the responsibility of governing
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