Up next in 10
Callers debates English identity, multiculturalism, immigration, online radicalisation and whether social media rabbit holes are fuelling increasingly extreme political views in Britain. The conversation touches on Nigel Farage, Rupert Lowe, Reform UK, racism in modern Britain and whether divisive rhetoric is becoming more mainstream. 00:00 | Caller Michael accuses James of being part of a smear against Nigel Farage 06:04 | Caller Benjamin says he trusts Rupert Lowe more than Farage, because Farage is going to row back on protecting "Britain's white population" 14:02 | Caller Alex says that as a black person he's never felt more conscious of his colour than in the current era. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jameshanson #nigelfarage #farage #ukpolitics #politics #debate #uknews #keirstarmer #rishisunak #tommyrobinson #reformuk #immigration #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Michael is in Canterbury. Morning, Michael. What would you like to say
0:03
Morning, mate. How are you? Yeah, good, thank you. Up at the same time this morning
0:09
Indeed. So what do you reckon about Farage then in this gift? It's just a smear campaign. For me, that's the way I see it
0:16
It's just a smear campaign. It's been hacked. Someone's got some information. They found out he's got a gift
0:21
So what? He's got given a gift. Do you know what the issue is? you have the MP, you've got Looney Lammy and the rest of these loonies
0:29
all calling him Hitler, like, you know, Nazis, fascists. And look at Starmer's speech the other day
0:37
Example, another one. You know, bad things are coming and this, that and the other
0:42
Someone's giving him a gift, an unconditional gift, which is always stated, you know
0:48
But Michael... And I'm a conservative voter, but I am going to reform now
0:53
I will be going to vote reform because, you know, you can see what's going on
0:59
and you can see the smears and this, that and the other. So, yeah
1:03
But, Michael, is it a smear or is it not just perfectly legitimate criticism
1:08
Was it a smear when people attacked Keir Starmer for taking free clothes and glasses from Lord Ali
1:14
For me, yeah, that was a bit of a smear. That was a smear too? Absolutely
1:18
So you have no issue with Keir Starmer getting free clothes from a Labour donor? I've got no issues with people getting things from any donors, you know
1:27
For me, personally, it doesn't bother me. It's part and parcel of the job. But, Michael, do we not need to be a bit careful
1:32
that when very wealthy people give politicians gifts, might they want something in return
1:39
I've just come into that. What the issues were around them donations, right
1:44
that Starmer had was his best mate was then getting the keys to number 10
1:48
Now, that shouldn't have been happening. but who said this Bitcoin boy has what
1:55
What's been promoted? Well, reform, reform a campaigning for pro-crypto policies. And what is wrong with that
2:04
There's nothing wrong with that. You're entitled to do that, but do you not think that might be linked
2:08
to why this crypto billionaire might want to give money to Nigel Farage
2:13
Hold on, you can only criticise on that once. He's in number 10 and then that comes about
2:18
But that's not coming about yet. Hang on, he's a party leader, he wants to be Prime Minister
2:23
Are we not allowed to hold people accountable when they are running to be Prime Minister
2:28
There's not a problem with running, but you're only speculating. But hang on, Keir Starmer said he would resign
2:37
if he was found to have breached Covid lockdown rules, for example, over that beer and curry he had
2:42
I don't know if you remember that. Yeah, but he got away with that. Well, he did get away with it because he was cleared by police in the end
2:46
But it was right to say, this man might be our next Prime Minister, we should hold him to account
2:51
I don't know why we should give Nigel Farage a free pass given he wants to be the next Prime Minister
2:55
Absolutely, and he's been investigated on it. And he's always confirmed it's a gift
2:59
And if he's, well, we shall see. If he is found to have breached the rules
3:04
what should happen? I don't know. It depends on how they've been breached
3:10
Because, I mean... Angela Rayner, for instance, she's just breached some rules, didn't she
3:15
But she didn't even get... She underpaid on housing tax on Stamp Duty. She now claims she's been cleared by HMRC
3:21
Yeah, I mean, you worked that one out. Can you imagine you? Well, she's had to pay the money back
3:25
She's had to pay the money back. Yeah, where's the fine? But she hasn't been fined, as far as we understand
3:29
And where's the interest? Do you know what I mean? But, Michael, that, I'm afraid, is whataboutery
3:36
Look, I'm not here to defend Angela Rayner over her tax affairs, but that is whataboutery
3:40
It's a situation which is exactly the same. Actually, that one's confirmed
3:44
Farage's hasn't been confirmed. You think Angela Rayner's housing tax issue is worse than Nigel Farage getting a £5 million gift from a reform donor
3:53
No, her one has been confirmed, right? Well, we know that Nigel Farage has received this money
3:59
Yeah, we know he's received, but the investigation is ongoing. When Nigel Farage said to an American podcaster in 2024
4:09
there's no money in politics unless you're corrupt. Yeah. Does that raise an eyebrow
4:16
I really know. I think he might be telling the truth. But the man is now a multimillionaire
4:21
He's the highest earning MP in Parliament. He earned about £2 million last year. £55 million for security and other things, right
4:27
Which is an unconditional gift. And it doesn't help when you have, like, the leaders of the current government
4:34
refusing you security on one hand and on the other hand they calling you Nazis But Michael Michael Michael on the security point is five million quid enough money to cover security
4:48
for face-to-face surgeries in your constituency? It's not just face-to-face surgeries, is it
4:54
So you're saying it's not enough because it's got to cover other stuff too? Absolutely. So how much does he need for security then
5:01
Well, you tell me how much a security guard is, because they're not just you only joking. They're not five million quid, are they
5:05
on your door, are they? Any people who work in security listening, do you get to pay £5 million a shift
5:11
I think they're a bit more than £23 an hour. Yeah, but come on
5:16
£5 million tax-free can pay for a couple of security guards in a village hall in Clacton
5:22
It's not just a couple of security guards in a village hall in Clacton, is it
5:26
What about when he goes about? You see, Michael, this is what I worry about
5:31
And look, I take your point that you're traditionally a Conservative voter, but you're going towards reform
5:35
You'll probably vote for Nigel Farage in the next election, which you are perfectly entitled to do
5:39
There are lots of people who support his policies. But why can't you separate the policies from the person and go
5:45
in this instance, this doesn't pass the sniff test? For me, I can't say it does or doesn't because it's not been confirmed and what he's done wrong
5:56
He might be all OK. As long as he's all in the boxes, then there's no issue, is there
6:01
Well, we will have to see. Michael, appreciate the call. Good morning, Benjamin. What would you like to say
6:06
Hi there. Good morning, James. Good morning. I would like to say that, I mean, you were just saying any politician worth our trust
6:14
In my opinion, Rupert Lowe has so far proved to me that he's worth that trust
6:19
Oh, blimey. You're another Rupert Lowe fan. Why? Why does he appeal to you
6:24
I think he's a man of integrity. And I think that's lacking in our selection of leaders or potential leaders at the minute
6:30
and at least so far. I would change my opinion if he does something
6:35
that seems not quite right to myself. But yeah, I think everything he said, he's been consistent
6:41
And he hasn't walked it back as he's got closer to power, as I would argue Nigel Farage has with certain things
6:47
What are you worried about with Nigel Farage walking stuff back? What specifically
6:53
I mean, perhaps I should have got the video up, But there is a post via Restore Britain where they put out just a montage, really, online of things that Nigel Farage has said
7:06
And he's changed his opinion on, I think it's probably going to be Islam, migration, Christianity
7:14
like the white English ethnicity sort of population as a percentage. I think he's changed his stance on all of those subjects
7:21
But this is the problem, Benjamin, with Rupert Lowe. He bangs on about stuff like white English ethnicity
7:28
I don't want politicians talking about people's skin colour. Why is that a problem
7:32
Why is that a problem? Yeah, 100 years ago we were talking about skin colour. Because race should be irrelevant
7:37
Well, 100 years ago, when we was an empire, it was important to us
7:43
And perhaps, you know, we're not quite as successful. And we were wrong to think that
7:48
Race is irrelevant. Race shouldn't matter. Are we not in a worse position now than we was two, three hundred years ago
7:55
What, and you think that's to do with race, do you? No, but I think perhaps we should look at some of the ideas that we had back then
8:01
Well, that sounds kind of crazy. What kind of ideas? I would argue that the new sort of woke, I guess, transgenderism
8:12
being politically correct, all of these sort of things that I've witnessed growing up
8:17
Benjamin, you're just kind of doing culture war bingo at the moment, coming out with different buzzwords
8:21
What do you mean? I think I'm quite clear what I mean
8:26
I think I'm just trying it up in, yeah, bunches. What ideas from 200 years ago should we bring back
8:32
Let's talk about maybe, I guess one clear one would be, like, comedy
8:36
If you watch, like, I don't know, like, Only Fools and Horses episodes when they were out there
8:42
Yeah, you're allowed to watch Only Fools and Horses, Benjamin. No one is banned. Del Boy
8:46
no but you look at that in contrast with the comedy today i would argue yeah but rupert low
8:53
is not going to revive british comedy if he's elected prime minister no but the reason that
8:58
we are censoring ourselves like that is because of the culture and i think once we get rid of that
9:03
and we go back to just being honest and we have like real discussions then um yeah then i think
9:09
these things will kill themselves but what but why why do you care about people's race
9:14
um i don a way which maybe it trying to be framed i would say in i would care in the same way that if India wanted to I don know take back Pakistan we would be like
9:30
no, that's for Pakistan. Like, let them, you know, be their whole population
9:35
you know, 95% or whatever. But I would want, I just want the same for the English
9:40
I just think if we look at England, let's remember that, you know, a certain demographic is white English
9:47
Benjamin, is Rishi Sunak English? No. Why not? He can be British, but he's not English, in my opinion
9:57
Because when I see an Englishman, I see someone like some of the peers I had growing up
10:03
Is Bakaya Saka English? No. It's name, isn't it? Is Ian Wright English
10:13
I don't know. I'm going to say he's not. Because my friends that were growing up
10:17
they were aware where they were from. Like, if they were Jamaican or Indian..
10:21
Junior, do you... Sorry, Benjamin. I've got a message here from Junior I want to put to you
10:26
He says, please, can you ask your caller, how would his black or brown friends react
10:31
Listening to him on the radio now, if he has any. Do you have any black or brown friends? Yes
10:37
I would say I haven't talked to them in a while, especially not since, like, COVID
10:41
I would say everything's sort of quiet down. But, you know, I think if you put the same argument to them..
10:46
And if you tell them I don't think you're English, purely because of the colour of your skin
10:50
No, I think what I would say back to them is, listen, would you want Jamaica to become 75% populated by Jamaicans
10:58
and then, you know, 25% by some other? Would you be OK as, like, if Jamaica
11:03
if Jamaicans became a minority in Jamaica? And I don't think any of them would agree with that
11:08
And I think then if we had a real conversation... Benjamin, I honestly do not care
11:13
what the racial composition of this country is. you may not but i think some people do and i think that's why why because deep down we are
11:23
all the same you can you can be opposed to mass immigration because you're worried about the
11:28
strain it'll have on public services and the numbers coming in entirely legitimate you can
11:33
be opposed to the small boat crossings because we believe in border security and we don't want
11:37
illegal migration and we don't know who those people are i think that's okay but when you start
11:42
banging on about basically ethnic nationalism, that's deeply alarming. Look, it may be to yourself
11:50
as a radio presenter, but I think... It's alarming to myself as a human being
11:56
to be honest. No, but there are certain subjects, I would say
12:00
as a radio presenter, that you probably don't want to touch. And I could roll off probably
12:05
vaccines, the COVID vaccine, I would say the war in Russia. and i would say our inflation problem everyone seems to have forgot monetary uh monetary inflation
12:19
can i can i ask you and look i appreciate this might sound deeply patronizing and i don't mean
12:24
it to but do you do you spend a lot of time online do you spend a lot of time on x well um
12:31
i would argue more since covid than i probably do before but i you know i had a perspective you've
12:40
You've gone down a rabbit hole. I think you've gone down a rabbit hole. Yeah, I've definitely been down a few rabbit holes
12:45
I would agree with that. But it doesn't make them not true
12:49
And I don't think these things are discussed. Can we help pull you out? Can we put a rope down there
12:54
Because I don't think... I think the only way it would be... You're a lost cause
12:58
But when you start banging on about people's race all the time, Benjamin, come on
13:03
I think you could, but you'd have to have honest debate. You'd have to get someone like John Campbell on LBC
13:09
to, like, you know, pull him through the ringer. Let him explain what he's found in terms of excess death since 2021
13:18
Oh, now we're on to vaccines. Yeah, okay. Yeah, or the Duran in terms of their position on the war in Ukraine
13:26
They seem to be quite consistent in terms of geopolitics. So, like, pulling them on and having, you know, the discussion
13:32
I've seen it done with Sheila and the Iranian professor. And I don't think, like, you've ever really come out better in that
13:41
So it just leads me to believe that, you know, what you see online is more true than what you hear
13:47
for, like, the state media or, you know, whatever it is yourself
13:51
BBC and ITV would come under, working for Ofcom or whatever. Benjamin, we're going to leave it there
13:59
but thank you for the call. Benjamin in Medway there. Let get some of your reaction to the call we just had from Benjamin who was ringing in to endorse the Restore leader Rupert Lowe but expressed views about well essentially ethno
14:13
that I think it's fair to say are deeply disturbing. And I'm not saying that's everyone
14:18
Of course it is, and it is a minority. But sadly, I fear it is a growing minority
14:22
And, of course, we are speaking on the day of this Tommy Robinson-led protest in the centre of London
14:27
And we'll talk a bit more about that later on in the policing of it. But I wonder how many people on that march may agree
14:33
with some of the views that Benjamin has expressed. Alex is in Oxford
14:37
Morning, Alex. What would you like to say? Good morning. I just want to say thank you to you
14:44
for hosting this conversation. I think Ben and the people who think like him
14:53
are a minority. They're vocal. They're present. They're marching today. but I think that on Farage he said that in order to make money in politics you have to be corrupt
15:09
it's under investigation and I've got every confidence that he's going to be found
15:17
to have done something wrong as far as Ben is concerned the last caller I mean as a black person
15:24
myself um i have never before been more conscious of my color than i am in the current era and and
15:36
you know and i was raised in the 1970s um and it was bad then this this is overt it's like people
15:46
have been given permission to be racist. And that's what it is
15:52
As far as, you know, where Ben's coming from and as far as Mr. Lowe, Rupert Lowe
15:59
and Nigel Farage are concerned, they're cut from the same cloth, dressed up in a suit
16:05
Back in the 1970s, we had the National Front putting leaflets through our letterbox saying
16:11
we want our country back, go back to where you come from. That's what's happening today
16:15
and I'd like good people like you and the other listeners who won't bother calling in
16:21
to know that we're right and they are wrong. And I think what I find staggering is, you know, when I said to Benjamin
16:30
is Rishi Sunak English, is Bakara Saka English, is Ian Wright English
16:34
I mean, Alex, you say you're a person of colour yourself. I'm guessing being in Oxford, you consider yourself English
16:41
Yes, I do. Absolutely. I've written a book on it. I've written a book on being black and English
16:47
and I've mentioned Rishi Sunak and a whole load of other people
16:51
who are as English as the ground beneath our feet. My parents got here in the 1950s, rebuilt this country
17:01
You know, we've got people of colour keeping the NHS going, serving in the police force like I do
17:08
You know, people who are doctors and nurses who contribute to this country being marginalized, being made to feel unwelcome
17:20
And I'm so glad, again, that people like your good self are on the right side of history
17:27
This is another chapter in the book of this country. We're going to get through it
17:32
There are going to be happier chapters ahead. But we do need people like you to help be the author of happier chapters
17:39
by holding people to account when they come onto your channel and talk racist nonsense
17:48
Alex, I really appreciate the call. Thank you so much. Alex in Oxford there
17:52
0345 6060 973 is the number. We will return to the issue of Farage and this donation in a moment
17:57
but I'll just do one more message on this. Karen says, James, someone who cares about Benjamin needs to intervene
18:02
The poor fellow needs help. I think as he was talking to you, you could hear him starting to realise his isolation and unhappiness
18:09
Good luck, Benjamin. Maybe a trip to your GP might be a good start. Or call up a friend who's been avoiding you
18:15
And look, I genuinely, I mean, and I hope you could sort of hear it as I was chatting to Benjamin
18:19
I do worry about people like that because I think they're not necessarily in their heart of hearts bad people
18:26
They might be believing terrible things, but I think they almost have been brainwashed in a way
18:31
And I don't know what the solution is because if you start shouting at them and calling them brainwashed idiots
18:37
there's a chance they just go further down that rabbit hole and become more defensive and are convinced that, you know
18:42
people like me on the mainstream media are trying to smear them, or whatever it may be. And yet how do you have that debate
18:48
It's a live question, it's an active question
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