Up next in 10
Campaigns Director at Restore Britain Charlie Downes, and Activist and founder of the anti-Brexit Our Future Our Choice Femi Oluwole join James Hanson in the LBC studio to debate whether 10 years on, if Brexit worth it? The argument gets fierce and they cover topics such as immigration and racism. No punches are held back in this debate. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #JamesHanson #Femioluwole #LBC #UKpolitics #immigration #Brexit #restore #debate LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
This week coming up marks 10 years since this happened
0:04
The British people have voted to leave the European Union and their will must be respected
0:10
The British people have made a very clear decision to take a different path
0:15
And as such, I think the country requires fresh leadership to take it in this direction
0:21
Tuesday is the 10-year anniversary of Britain's historic vote to leave the European Union
0:27
To some, it was the UK's Independence Day. To others, it was a moment of unprecedented national self-harm
0:36
So this hour, it's our big Brexit debate. Ten years on, was it worth it
0:42
0345 6060 973 is the number to call. Send me a message on WhatsApp on the same number, or you can text me, 84850
0:51
Ten years on, was Brexit worth it? Charlie Downs supported Leave. He's now Campaigns Director for Restore Britain and a writer and broadcaster and joins me in the studio
1:00
Good morning, Charlie. Good morning, James. And Femi Oluwole, supported Remain. He then became the founder of the anti-Brexit youth advocacy group Our Future, Our Choice
1:08
and is now an activist and YouTuber. Good morning, Femi. Good morning, James. Thank you both for coming in so early
1:13
Charlie, I'll start with you. Ten years on, Brexit, was it worth it
1:17
Well, to say that I was a Leave supporter is probably a bit of an overstatement, because I think I was 15 when Brexit happened
1:22
You couldn't even vote. I couldn't even vote. I wasn't politically aware at the time
1:26
I think I was too busy playing Minecraft and Call of Duty and all the rest of it. But since then, I have come to believe that Brexit represented an impulse within the soul of this nation
1:37
to withdraw from what is self-evidently a failing political order. Now, whether that was actually what it became in reality is another question
1:46
because I think the way that it was handled, particularly the way in which it was contained and subverted by Tories like Boris Johnson
1:53
it's another matter entirely because I think it has been, in the way that it was executed
1:57
pretty much an unmitigated disaster So it was a good idea but badly executed
2:02
With that being said again, what it represents, I think, is still very much alive
2:05
in the soul of the British people and has not yet been resolved and so in a way, Brexit is still ongoing
2:12
So Femi, Charlie's saying it was the right decision even if it's been executed badly
2:17
What say you? Just for a while, you keep saying it's not the right decision, but not done well
2:23
The leader of your party, Rupert Lowe, was a member of the Reform Party, then called the Brexit Party
2:27
and their policy was a no-deal Brexit. So when you talk about
2:31
we would have done Brexit correctly, that's what you're talking about. So the question, I have three simple questions
2:37
What was the policy that the Reform Party was founded on? It was Brexit
2:41
What was the type of Brexit? It was no-deal Brexit. So the next question is, can you name a single country on planet Earth
2:47
that is a successful economy that doesn't have a trade deal with any of its 30 closest neighbours
2:52
Probably not, because I don't necessarily agree with that vision of Brexit
2:56
If you want to talk to reform, you should talk to reform. I'm not part of reform. That was Rupert Lowe's position when this was actually happening
3:02
So he was one of the people saying, oh, Brexit should have been done correctly. Well, that was his Brexit
3:06
Yeah, well, it may well have been. Which means that his Brexit was to do something that every successful economy on planet Earth
3:11
has chosen specifically to avoid. And that can only be worse than where we are now
3:16
Even worse than this unmitigated disaster that you just talked about. And that's the thing, because right now
3:21
This is a closed debate. We've already all agreed that Brexit has been damaging
3:25
not just because the Nuffield Trust, the biggest medical charity in the UK
3:29
says that Brexit has damaged the NHS. The Small Business Federation says that 85% of small businesses
3:34
have struggled to sell to the EU since then. The National Federation of Fishermen's Association
3:38
says that Brexit has cost them £300 million. The Food and Drink Federation says that Brexit has added to cost
3:44
Morrison's is begging them to re-enter the single market to lower costs
3:48
This is unmitigated disaster on the expert level, But among voters, it's like 70% believe it's made us poorer
3:55
Even among reform voters, they on balance believe it has damaged this country on balance
3:59
on things like the NHS, on things like the cost of living. So this is over
4:03
And we'll come on to all of those specific issues and specific ways that Brexit either has worked or hasn't worked
4:09
Charlie, interesting that you mentioned that you think it was a good idea
4:13
or that it spoke to something that needed to happen or the British people needing to make their voice heard in a certain way
4:21
What do you mean by that? Because a lot of people wrote it up as kind of a big populist moment
4:25
where actually people who had maybe been ignored by the political class for too long
4:29
suddenly made their voice heard. Well, first of all, if you want to discuss Rupert's opinions
4:33
you should talk to Rupert. We've had conversations about this. He's the leader of your party. Well, we've had conversations about this
4:37
and I think he broadly shares my position, which is that the way that it was executed was an error
4:43
Well, maybe so. But to answer your question, James, about how this is still a kind of ongoing thing
4:48
how it represented an impulse within the national spirit of this country, I think to every hard-working, you know, future-facing, ambitious person
4:58
they can tell that this system, this political order that has existed
5:02
was constructed in the aftermath of the Second World War, is now falling apart
5:06
And that is manifesting itself in a number of different ways, chief among which is the disintegration of the borders of the countries of Europe
5:13
not least the United Kingdom. and by the way, since Brexit, more than anything. I mean, the Boris wave, for example
5:18
was one of the worst manifestations of the type of Brexit that was kind of implemented
5:24
And this is because people like Boris Johnson and Michael Gove and indeed Nigel Farage
5:28
their vision of Brexit was one of global Britain, you know, in limitless free trade
5:33
between as many countries as possible. And what that led to was deals with countries like India
5:37
which carried with it visa obligations. Again, you cannot say we would have done Brexit correctly
5:42
when their version of Brexit was a no-deal Brexit, which would be even worse than what we have now
5:46
So everything you just heard, it makes no sense because the alternative he's supporting is even worse than what we have now
5:51
And isn't there the slight risk, Charlie, that you sound a bit like people on the left who say
5:55
well, the reason communism has never worked is because it's never been done right. But real Brexit has never been tried
6:00
Exactly. Is there a way of doing Brexit right? I'd love to hear this
6:04
I think there is, but it's quite a large conversation that I'll have to have a think about
6:10
But with that being said, it would have to carry with it
6:15
obviously a complete withdrawal from the various conventions that we remain part of
6:20
as a country, like the ECHR, the ECJ, the UN. So war in Northern Ireland then
6:25
Well, perhaps, but I think that would be a grave error. Perhaps
6:29
He's saying perhaps. I say war in Northern Ireland, this guy says perhaps
6:34
Well, no, let me just... This is the Patriot we're talking about, the Patriotic Restore Party
6:38
saying war in the UK, that's fine. But look at the way in which Northern Ireland has been essentially annexed following Brexit
6:44
I mean, this has been disastrous. The UK annexed Northern Ireland. We are the ones who stole it from Ireland
6:50
That's the annexation of Northern Ireland. That's an entirely different debate. I'm sure one day maybe we can do a whole hour about Irish unification
6:57
but that is a slight tangent. But using the term annex when we're the ones that stole it is wild
7:01
It's fair to say Northern Ireland is a big part of the whole Brexit debate
7:05
Let's focus on certain issues topic by topic. Let's start. we're going to come on to immigration shortly we'll come on to public services
7:11
let's start with the economy because Charlie a lot of people would say that
7:15
ever since brexit our economy has been impacted now I would say and look full
7:21
transparency I voted remain but I was a kind of reluctant remainer I would say sometimes the economic effects of brexit in a negative sense have been overplayed because if you look at other G7 nations particularly in Europe they have also had sluggish levels of growth and our growth has been comparable
7:37
And Femi, I will let you come back on that in a moment. But Charlie, what do you think about the economic impacts of Brexit
7:42
Have they been disastrous or have there been some upsides? Well, it's largely, I think, it's important that we look at the way that we measure economic prosperity
7:51
in Europe, in the West, and we usually use the metric of GDP. which in my view is not hugely useful, because whilst GDP may have grown since 2008, for example
8:01
GDP per capita has largely remained stagnant. So ordinary people are, essentially it feels like we're getting poorer
8:08
certainly the case for young people, if you look at the housing market, if you look at wages, if you look at jobs, and all the rest of it
8:14
So it does feel like we're getting poorer. I think that has remained the case, certainly since 2016
8:19
And so the way we measure economic prosperity is one of the aspects here
8:23
But again, the vision of Brexit that I think the ordinary voters had, the ordinary Leave voters had, was one that was going to bring in a programme of economic nationalism, re-industrialisation, a focus on British sovereignty in key sectors like, for example, medicine, food and energy, which are three sectors that we are overly reliant on foreign imports for
8:43
We import 40% of our food, 80% of our key prescription pharmaceuticals we get from China and India
8:49
This is not a good situation because we are reliant on foreign powers in a time of increasing geopolitical volatility
8:57
And we are, I think, feeling the impacts of that, certainly at the fuel pump. So, yeah, I think that it has been, you know, certainly a period of decline since Brexit
9:06
But once again, what people were voting for was the exact opposite. It was just the people who executed it who did it
9:12
And again, his proposal was no deal Brexit. So he can't say that
9:15
As for the notion of we should become self-sufficient, I've actually heard that argument from Reform as well
9:21
I was interviewing a couple of their candidates a couple of years ago, and I said, all right, so your idea is that we should become self-sufficient
9:27
we shouldn't rely on the EU so much, etc. But given that a no deal Brexit would put significant trade barriers
9:33
on our food supply, given that a third of the food we eat in this country comes from the EU, in order to get self-sufficient
9:39
that would take time, 5, 10, 20 years. And I was just like, so wouldn't that significantly damage our food supply for the next couple of decades
9:47
And the quote was, sometimes you have to take a little pain with some things for it to work
9:52
Direct quote from a reform party candidate. Would you disagree with that? Well, right now there are 13 million people in poverty and you are talking about playing games with them
9:59
And is that down to Brexit? No, it's been made worse by Brexit. And exacerbated by Brexit
10:03
Often people who support Brexit will say, well, there's been COVID, there's been Ukraine, there's been Iran
10:09
as an argument that Brexit hasn't done damage. or they'll point to problems in European countries
10:14
say, oh, but Germany's doing badly as well. None of that makes damaging our supply routes
10:19
and our supply chains a good idea. Even if the entire of Europe was in flames
10:25
it's still going to be the place that's easiest for us to trade with because they're physically closest to us
10:29
So damaging our supply chains with Europe is always going to be bad, regardless of what happens in France
10:34
But Femi, has the economic impact of Brexit been overstated? Because we are, I mean, the government would like to say
10:38
they often do, fastest growing economy in the G7. So has it caused that much damage economically
10:45
So then you can only look at the institutions that are, well, the industries that would be in charge of that
10:50
So, for example, Small Business Federation is saying that 85% of exporters
10:54
say that Brexit has made it harder for them. Look at the National Farmers Union, which says that Brexit has damaged British farmers
11:00
69% of farmers, according to Farmers Weekly, say that Brexit has made their farms harder to run
11:06
The SMMT, which is the industry body that covers the car industry in the UK
11:10
They say that Brexit is damaging us. Even Kemi Badenock said Brexit has been especially difficult for the car industry
11:17
If you look at what other industries are there, National Federation of Fishermen Industries, they say it's been damaging
11:22
There is no sector of the UK that you can point to that hasn't been significantly damaged by this
11:26
And again, a lot of the rhetoric around Brexit has been on this idea that it has been some patriotic cry that we believe in Britain
11:34
but what you have done is objectively damaging Britain. So given that right now there is pretty much strong consensus, even from Charlie Wright here, that Brexit has been damaging, continuing to support it is the opposite of patriotism because it means you are willing to actively harm your own country
11:50
Well, it may be the case in the coming years that with the rise of parties like the National Rally, the AFD and various others across Europe, that the EU takes on a different character, a more nationalist character that respects the individual identities that it governs
12:03
And if that is the case, do you know what? I'm going to stick my hands up and say we should probably be part of that, especially if restore or reform, to a lesser extent reform, get into government, because maybe it is better that we're part of that than not
12:15
Mark in Camden coming to your call in just a moment. Cathy messages to say, Morning, James, 10 years on
12:20
And no, we are definitely not better off. And the press hate the fact they can't hide that fact
12:25
as much as they would like to. And Nick says, James, look at Europe's economy
12:29
They are not doing any better than the UK. Brexit has not really made much difference
12:33
and no one can tell you otherwise because we will never know
12:37
Let's go to Mark in Camden. Good morning, Mark. What would you like to say? Good morning, James
12:41
Good morning, gentlemen. Best wishes to Shane in Edinburgh first. Yes, well said
12:46
Right. Next, this is two weeks on Tuesday. This is what I told the government minister
12:51
I swear to God, I was in Spoons in Farringdon, and I spoke to the government minister for two things
12:57
One, I said, reduce VAT back to 70.5% for a temporary period to stimulate the economy
13:04
The other one, I said, be honest with the public about the veterinary agreement with the EU
13:10
The EU are stalling on animal rights. Labour put in a manifesto
13:14
they would ban the import of Fargoire. Most supermarkets won't sell it
13:18
It's unethical. They put a funnel down its Gregory Peck, force feed the bird
13:23
But the EU have pointed out to them, you can ban it. You ban it, you don't get this veterinary agreement
13:27
because you're interfering with the single market. That's your sovereignty. That comes under sovereignty
13:32
You've got the sovereignty to ban it, or you can play along with the single market. So you want the government to use more of the so-called Brexit freedoms
13:38
that leaving the EU gave us? Yeah, I am. But more importantly, I'm also an Irish citizen
13:43
And many years ago, Johnson banned the trade. Ireland used to send their mail cars from the dairy herd on a land bridge
13:49
on a ferry, through Wales, all the way through Wales, southern England, to Ramsgate, to the Netherlands
13:54
It's nicknamed Carrie's Law, the British banned it. So, Mark... And you'd have to bring that back
14:00
If someone wanted to bring back that trade, and you're in the single market or the veterinary agreement as it stands now
14:05
that's why Labour are playing hardball. And I said to the minister, I said, be honest with the population
14:10
This is the stalling. Just say, this is what we're trying to get. We're trying to protect animal rights in this country
14:16
but we want the veterinary agreement. So they're trying to cherry-pick. And EU-speak is called a derogation
14:22
The Danes have it on immigration. They have a derogation. They also have it on the euro. They don't ever have to join the euro
14:27
because they've got a derogation in a treaty with the EU. And just quickly, James
14:34
Northern Ireland is actually in a single market for goods. So to head a household, they should be doing better
14:38
because they never lost it. Well, that's an interesting point. So, Mark, you voted leave, did you
14:44
I voted leave. I'm also a dual national. I have no problem with it. It's all right saying GDP, this GDP. It's what money trickles down
14:51
Do you believe it when Femi says it massively damaged our economy Do you believe that Mark Well in a way I get it but that all abstract The coalition government is costing you a year
15:06
Ed Davey done the costing before the general election. About the VAT increase, it's the 4th of January 2011
15:13
The coalition government put VAT up as a temporary measure to get over the banking crisis
15:18
You're still paying for the banking crisis. Ed Davey forgot to mention he was in the cabinet that put the money up
15:24
So he's done the costing. That costs me, I can see that with my own eyes
15:28
Do you think Brexit gets blamed too much for our economic woes? Yes, but that's big business
15:33
Whether it trickles down to you, you might not see it. Mark, take the point, thank you
15:38
Femi, do you want to respond? I mean, is Mark right to say that we blame Brexit too quickly for our economic woes
15:44
So it's the phrase necessary but not sufficient. So undoing Brexit is a necessary thing that we need to do
15:49
if we're actually serious about tackling the cost of living crisis, but more needs to be done as well given that um like as you talked about gdp per person is an
15:56
important issue and we have a lot of money in the in the uk we're one of the richest countries in
16:01
the world but unfortunately the richest 50 families have more wealth than the bottom 50 30 35 million
16:06
so half the population so the wealth we have it but it's all hoarded at the top which is why people
16:09
are in poverty sadly people certain people certain politicians like to blame minorities for that when
16:15
actually the issue is that the money is basically hoarded at the top uh connor in turkey coming to
16:19
call in just a moment. Charlie, on the NHS, obviously Nigel Farage and others made the
16:25
argument that money could be invested into the NHS if we left the EU. There was the famous
16:30
battle bus with the £350 million a week figure that was heavily disputed. Has the NHS improved
16:36
because of Brexit? Just before I come to that, I do want to address something that Femi just said, which is the concentration of wealth at the very top of our society. And I think that, you know
16:44
nobody serious really disputes that that is the case. And it is a problem. There's a reason that people like Gary Stevenson and parties like the Green Party
16:51
are doing so well at the moment, especially among the young. And that is because there is a huge degree of wealth inequality
16:57
I read a statistic a few weeks ago that the average wealth of individuals
17:01
who own their home is something like 16 times greater than those who rent
17:06
I rent, and I can tell you that that certainly feels like it's the case. And there's a generational aspect to this as well
17:11
The older generations have more wealth than the younger generations. And there's been so many policies over the last few years
17:16
like, for example, the lockdowns, which only accelerated this kind of process
17:23
So I agree with you that wealth inequality is an issue, but I don't blame Brexit for that necessarily
17:29
I do think one aspect of it is that it enabled corporations to
17:33
well, corporations, big corporates were the ones who ultimately won out because, again, this global Britain narrative was, you know
17:40
it was all about enriching those who already have wealth and assets
17:44
But it did also leave. You speak about blaming minorities. It's not about blaming minorities arbitrarily
17:52
It's about looking at the immigration policies of the ruling class and looking at how they affect the well-being of ordinary people in this country
17:58
And the fact is, the immigration that took place during lockdown, by the way, I mean, I thought we were supposed to be limiting the amount of travel people were doing
18:05
And yet, millions of migrants came into the country and are on track to stay permanent
18:09
We will get on to immigration, I promise you, because there's a lot to be debated there. Just on that point about the NHS, though
18:14
I mean, a lot of people would say the NHS is no better than it was 10 years ago. I've got relatives who work in the NHS
18:19
and sometimes they say it's like an absolute war zone. So, yeah, I probably agree that not enough has been invested in the NHS
18:26
but that begs the question, is more investment what is needed? Would that actually help
18:30
Would throwing more money into the black hole actually help? And I'm not sure that it would, because, again, back to immigration
18:35
the fact is if you bring in millions of people, many of whom are dependents, many of whom take more out of the system than they put in
18:40
The strain on public services is going to increase, and that's going to lead them to kind of grinding to a halt
18:45
which is what's happening. And on the economy, got a message from Les in Eltham saying, Femi's going on about the economy, that's not important
18:51
Do we want to run our country or not? Otherwise, what was the point in fighting Hitler
18:55
Keep us out of the Euro-Rike, he says. Your response. Sorry, I have to come back on some of that stuff
19:01
I sat right here and pointed out to Nigel Farage eight years ago that EU citizens made up 5% of the UK population
19:08
but 10% of our doctors. So statistically speaking, that immigration is not damaging this country
19:12
It is literally keeping it alive by increasing our doctor-patient ratio. The immigration that took place during lockdown was largely non-EA
19:19
Allow me to finish my point. And I also pointed out that the rhetoric of people such as your brand of politics
19:26
from Nigel Farage, he said, in 2016, he said, there was nothing we can do to stop unlimited numbers of people from EU countries
19:32
settling in this country and enjoying the same rights and privileges as all the rest of us. And then I called him up on his show and I told him
19:38
under EU rules in order to live in another country need to either have a job or have sufficient resources
19:45
enough money, that you're not a burden on the welfare state and you have your own comprehensive medical insurance
19:49
And he said, in theory, Femi, you're right. In theory, under European treaties, there are restrictions that can be placed
19:54
which means he was admitting that his entire rhetoric about how the EU forced completely uncontrolled immigration
19:59
was a lie, and that was his main message. I even said to him that if the EU has rules
20:04
on controlling immigration and the UK hasn't been implementing them, then leaving the EU would likely lead to more uncontrolled immigration
20:10
And that is exactly what happened. And again, you might not be reformed
20:14
but you work for a guy who was part of the Reform Party. That is what people did to this country
20:19
And yet you still blame uncontrolled immigration on the left when you are the ones behind it
20:24
And especially, as I just pointed out, we need immigration. Well, once again, if you listen to the rhetoric of people
20:28
like Farage and Johnson before Brexit, they were saying that actually we would prefer people come from India
20:33
than come from Poland for reasons that I can't quite understand. And that has since happened. You're correct. You know, 80 to 90 percent of the immigration that took place during the Boris wave, during lockdown, post Brexit, came from non-EEA countries
20:47
And so you're talking about, you know, EU nationals, but that's not really who we're dealing with. We're also given that we're talking about immigration, we have to get into immigration properly
20:53
Yeah. So given that your party, I came here and I was questioning whether I should even sit across from you because your policy around immigration is largely around immigration
21:04
and you have around re-migration, which is the phrase that, according to Wikipedia, means the ethnic cleansing of Europe of anybody who isn't white
21:11
Famously reliable source. Well, let's back that up. You recently shared a video by Douglas Carswell
21:17
where he said that the re-immigration will involve stripping citizenship from people who are born in this country
21:23
And you have said that your re-migration, part of the purpose of it, is to fix the demographic of the UK
21:30
because it's going too far away from white people, which means you won't be stripping citizenship
21:34
No, it's nothing to do with white people. You have complained about... Have you not talked about white British people becoming a minority
21:39
Well, white British is a census category. It's not about arbitrary skin colour. So this re-immigration agenda will not be removing citizenship from white British people
21:48
but it will be removing citizenship from people like me. In fact, even... Hang on, no, no, no. Our policy is that foreign nationals who live in social housing
21:54
who can't speak English, who are a burden on the taxpayer and who hate our life, are going to be deported
21:59
As I just said, the video you shared, which you called a razor-sharp ysis by Douglas Carswell
22:05
said you'll be removing citizenship from people who were born in this country. Well, I think I shared that video before we launched Restore Britain as a party
22:11
so I may well agree with the sentiment, but our policy as a party is what I've just said
22:16
Sorry, sorry. You were sat there as somebody who shared the idea positively
22:19
that we should be removing citizenship from people who were born in this country
22:23
That includes people like me. And Nick Buckley who was actually Nick Buckley MBE he has tweeted saying that I am a poster boy for remigration and he is a member of your party So it literally saying people like me born in this country
22:36
with my colour of skin, are on your list of people that you'll be taking out of the country
22:40
And for the record, that is kidnapping. I was born here and he is talking about kidnapping people with my skin colour
22:47
That is violence. Well, let's just clear that up, Charlie. Don't be so ridiculous
22:52
Would you remove Femi's citizenship? If you want to debate Nick Buckley's opinions, you should talk to Nick Buckley
22:56
Right now you're talking to me. And I've just told you that our policy is the deportation of foreign nationals
23:03
so we're not talking about citizenship, foreign nationals who hate our way of life, who live in social housing, who are a burden on the taxpayer
23:09
because that's simple common sense. None of that matters if you yourself support the idea of removing citizenship
23:13
from people like me, people who were born in this country. And Charlie, is that true? Would you remove Femi's citizenship
23:17
Well, it is the case that citizenship has been handed out like confetti over the last few decades
23:21
It's kind of a yes or no question. You think, right? The British Nationality Act has been a disaster for this country
23:26
and it is the case that many people have been given citizenship. It is a yes or no. Would you remove Femi citizenship
23:30
Well, it's not a yes or no. Let me just get to the point here. It is the case that many, many people who do hate our way of life
23:36
who are not British in any real sense, have been given citizenship by a ruling class
23:41
which the vast majority of the public do not believe in and oppose. It's an undemocratic and immoral policy
23:48
So even Nigel Farage, I'm going to aim through you to Nigel Farage
23:52
Nigel Farage in 2024 he said that 46% of British Muslims support Hamas, support a terrorist organisation
23:59
And the survey he was quoting didn't say that. It asked British Muslims who do they have more sympathy for, the Israeli government or Hamas
24:06
So he was literally lying about half of British Muslims to paint them as terrorists. A couple of things to say
24:11
First of all Nick Buckley who's been referenced is not here to defend himself. Charlie I'll give you one more chance if you want to directly address it
24:17
And I appreciate you say you don't consider it to be a yes or no. but Femi claiming that you want to remove his citizenship
24:23
would you remove his citizenship? Well, we have to start with... There's 10 million foreign nationals in this country
24:28
and it is largely there... That's not a direct answer. ...that the problem... That's not a direct answer. Well, the party policy at the moment is no
24:35
So you wouldn't remove Femi's citizenship? Well, as things stand, our agenda is purely focusing on illegals and foreign nationals
24:43
As things stand. Well, you hate our way of life, Femi. That is a fact. You hate this country
24:47
Yeah, so this is... Again, textbook fascism is to say... Is to say that anybody who disagrees with you is somehow unpatriotic
24:53
No, it just means recognising that this is a country with a very long history. A huge number of people have come here since the Second World War
24:58
And many of those people don't belong here. Connor is in Turkey. Good morning, Connor
25:02
How did you vote back in 2016? Remain. It is the worst thing that ever happened
25:12
Brexit. Because I work in Europe most of the time. My UK passport was worth nothing
25:20
and like I couldn't get a visa, couldn't do anything. Luckily enough, my mother's Irish
25:26
so I qualified to get an Irish passport, which is European. So when you say it was the worst thing that happened
25:32
I mean, tell me a bit more about how it impacted your life. Well, I work in pharmaceuticals
25:40
and I was going back to do the COVID-19 vaccine, and I wasn't allowed to play
25:48
They said, you passport, you need more documents. And I said, look, I need to go
25:56
So they said, no, you need more documents because of Brexit, because this happens
26:03
But I suppose, Connor, that sort of goes to Charlie's point, which is that that is an implementation thing
26:08
That is the way we have negotiated our exit from the European Union as a bloc
26:12
That is the regulations that have been imposed afterwards. Does that necessarily mean that Brexit in and of itself was the wrong decision
26:19
Well, the thing is, going back then, the 52% that voted were really like old age pensioners
26:28
just thinking about immigration. And that was it. They didn't think about the economic and fiscal policies
26:35
And is it illegitimate for older voters, for any voters, to be thinking about immigration when they voted to leave
26:41
Well, look, I've got nothing about immigration. I've got lots and lots and lots of people
26:50
lots of Polish people that work in my industry that we need in this country
26:55
because we haven't got enough people to work. And so, like, we do need immigration
27:05
That's a given. Connor, let me put that point into Charlie. Charlie Downs from Restore Britain in the studio with us
27:12
We need immigration, don't we, Charlie? No, no, we don't. People make the case all the time that we need immigration for economic reasons
27:20
And even if that were true, I don't think it is true, but even if that were true, it's simply not worth the trade-offs
27:25
It's not worth the atrocities that we've been subject to over the last few decades
27:30
not least the grooming gangs, which we've just published a huge report on. These problems are entirely avoidable
27:36
but they're only brought here due to decisions by the government to bring in people from countries that are fundamentally incompatible with their own
27:43
Connor, do you want to come back on that and then I'll let Femi come in? Yes. Well, what I would say is like sometimes in our country, in the UK
27:54
people are too lazy to work and you get people to come over who will work
28:00
Charlie, are Brits too lazy to do the jobs that foreign migrants do
28:03
There may be a small portion who exploit the system, not least through mental health benefits
28:10
But I think it's largely been the fact that the British people have been disempowered
28:14
I mean, look at the fact that we're going to talk about the NHS. Look at the fact that the recruitment of British nationals dropped following Brexit
28:22
and the recruitment of people from countries like India massively increased. I think this is another problem. It's just simply that our people are not being put first
28:29
That side of politics will weaponise the issue of violence against women
28:33
In fact, several women's charities, such as End Violence Against Women, have said they condemn the weaponization of violence against women for racist reasons, especially given that there are 80,000 rapes every year
28:46
3.7% of crimes against minors are committed by Asian men, and that's according to the latest government statistics
28:53
There might be differences in terms of grooming gangs. We don't have the data properly, which does require an inquiry
28:57
I agree with that. but to blame the concept of violence against women
29:01
or violence against minors on brown people is a distortion of the fact... Did I say that
29:06
You said that they bring this problem to this country. That's what you just said. Yes
29:10
That is blaming it on them. Well, no, it's blaming it on the perpetrators who are primarily Pakistani Muslims
29:15
It was a choice by our only class to bring these people here. The problem is already here
29:19
Oh, so that means all crimes are just equal. On immigration, because this was often seen
29:23
as one of the big drivers for the Brexit vote, that there were people with, and you often hear the language of legitimate concerns about immigration
29:30
Do you believe the people who voted, because they wanted to see the overall numbers of people coming here legally
29:35
we're not talking about asylum seekers, we're not talking about small boats, concerns about the number of people who were coming here legally
29:41
including from the EU, do you believe that was a legitimate concern and a legitimate reason to vote for Brexit
29:47
Nigel Farage was telling people that immigration was completely uncontrolled under the EU
29:51
So that was a lie. He admitted that that was a lie. Leave aside the fact that then we had the Boris wave and it went up
29:56
and it didn't actually lead to lower levels of immigration. But was it a legitimate concern
29:59
If people are told that immigration is completely uncontrolled if we're in the EU, then they're going to be scared of that because immigration should be controlled
30:06
So if they're being led to believe by people like Nigel Farage that immigration is not controlled
30:11
then of course they're going to be controlled. So it's purely propaganda. It's not people looking at the evidence of their own eyes in their own towns
30:15
A lot of the problem was you have austerity, you have policies that make the lives of working class people significantly harder
30:21
And so, of course, if you are living in poverty and you see that there's not much to go around
30:25
the prospect of there being more people is going to feel daunting. However, if you look more globally at the situation and realise the wealth is in this country, it is simply hoarded at the top, you realise that the problem is not Mohammed down the street, that it's not your Polish neighbour
30:39
The problem is that our country favours the rich. So people were wrong to be concerned about immigration. I'm saying that immigration should be controlled
30:44
I think if you have a situation where you aren't controlling immigration, that is a problem
30:48
But at the time, they were being fed a false narrative about how immigration was completely uncontrolled under the EU
30:53
It's not fair, though, because a lot of people hear that and hear an implication that somehow they're a bit thick or that they don't understand the facts
31:01
And that actually people just want fewer people coming here legally, not because they hate foreigners, but because they're worried about, for example, the strain on the public services, etc
31:10
Yeah. So this thick argument that anybody, if you say somebody made a mistake on Brexit, you're calling them thick
31:16
I studied EU law for years in two different countries, in two different languages
31:20
I then worked in Brussels, in and around the EU institutions for years as well
31:23
So I am, relative to most people in UK politics, an expert on the EU
31:28
The fact that I say that I understand this issue better than other people does not make me some arrogant person calling people fake
31:33
It just means I happen to have studied this topic. But you are saying that people should not believe the evidence of their own eyes
31:38
and are just easily led along by people who are for a watch. The evidence of their own eyes is seeing that public services are failing
31:45
It's seeing that the cost in the shops is going... But it's also seeing that high streets taken over by Turkish barbers
31:50
and tacky, dodgy vape shops and, you know, Just people who are not from this country who can't speak the language
31:55
And again, this is the Reform Party rhetoric. I'm not from Reform, Femi
31:59
Again, it's the same thing. You have Sarah Poach and the Reform Party MP saying it drives her mad when she's adverts
32:06
Femi, how many times are we going to do this? I'm not from Reform. In fairness, Femi, Charlie is here in a capacity from restore Britain
32:13
He's not here to defend a party that he's not a member of. To be honest, Femi, your view of Britishness is closer to Reform than it is to us
32:22
So it's the rhetoric of not liking when you see black and brown faces on TV
32:26
That notion of, even if you accept, I've been saying this for 10 years
32:30
If you know that leaving the EU is going to make you poor, which everybody agrees that it has
32:35
if seeing a couple of Turkish barbers is enough to make you say all right we still need to keep doing this that means you willing to make yourself poorer so that you see less brown faces That kind of rhetoric means you hate foreigners more than you love this country
32:48
which is the problem with people like you. Leaving the racialized language to one side, because I've not once said it's about brown faces
32:53
or anything like that. If you want to talk to Sarah Pochin, talk to Sarah Pochin. What I'm saying is that it's totally legitimate
32:58
for the people of this country to accept the fact that they will be poorer
33:02
if that means that their country continues to exist. If they have a country where their children are not a minority
33:08
Saying, James, Charlie would rather live in poverty than allow economic immigrants to come here
33:13
Damn right. You would rather be poorer with fewer immigrants. I would rather be poorer than have my children and grandchildren
33:19
grow up in a country where they are an ethnic minority. Remind me of your upbringing
33:23
What sort of school do you go to, by the way? What sort of school do I go to? I went to a state primary and secondary
33:27
Okay, okay. And you're fairly comfortable now? Why are you asking these questions
33:31
It's just that Rupert Lowe, Nigel Farage, Richard Tice, These are all people that are very, very well off
33:36
Oh, the millionaires, the millionaires. I know, but I've heard... Address the substance of my argument
33:40
Do you think it is right for white British children to grow up as a minority in their own country
33:44
My issue is, we're hearing from a party that is run by and funded by millionaires
33:48
saying that they are happy to make the people of this country poorer for their own political agenda
33:52
Our country is not funded by millionaires. It's funded by our 140,000 paying members from the British public
33:58
Is your boss not friends with Musk, like supported by Musk? He doesn't fund us
34:03
We're funded by our members. Sure, sure, sure. Ordinary people. Millionaires saying they're happy to make the rest of us poor
34:08
Again, it finds disgusting. I'm not a millionaire, mate. I want to bring in Robert, though, in Croydon. Robert, you voted leave
34:14
What would you like to say? Good morning. So, good morning. Obviously, as normal, this conversation has just fallen into the left
34:24
calling the, I'm assuming, Femme is left, into what I'm assuming is the right just calling them racist
34:31
which is kind of how everybody got into this mess in the first place
34:35
So I'm not a well-educated man. I'm an unskilled worker. So to give you the reason that I voted for leave
34:44
in 2005, as an unskilled worker, I was 25 years old, so I believe Femi at this point would have been about 15 years old
34:54
I believe, if I've got the right person. so the family would have been 15 years old
35:00
at school still I'm assuming I was 25 years old I had two kids
35:06
I worked very very hard as an unskilled worker and I earned £50,000 a year
35:14
and I was saving to buy my first house now my rent on my three bedroom house was just under a year okay Well not a year sorry a month in the area that I lived in My kid mum worked
35:33
part-time as a carer and as a carer she earned good money, okay? So that's what happened
35:40
In 1998, so you're talking about wealth trickling down and all this sort of stuff, in 1998 the
35:46
Menzies family sold their business to WH Smiths for 68 million pounds
35:52
They then set up, with that money, they then set up Menzies Aviation. In 2005, which is the year that I'm talking about, when Poland joined the EU
36:02
Menzies Aviation expanded massively. And the way they did that was they recruited directly from Poland
36:10
Effectively, it's what I would refer to as modern slavery. on half the wages that the existing companies were paying us
36:21
And because the industry that we worked in was so labour heavy
36:26
it was the biggest outgoing, the companies that were existing suddenly weren't able to compete
36:32
And as we got made redundant, as Menzies took all our contracts, as we walked out the doors
36:39
Menzies' aviation managers were there literally handing us application forms and overnight our wages halved
36:47
Overnight we went from having six months paid sick pay to none
36:52
Overnight our holiday went from 29 days a year to 21. Overnight our..
36:58
Oh, sorry, my dog's going mental. Overnight our... So, Robert, sorry to interrupt
37:03
do you consider yourself to have essentially been a victim of the influx of Eastern European immigrants
37:10
who came to this country in the mid-noughties after they joined the EU
37:14
I don't blame Eastern European immigrants for that. Absolutely not. If I could go to Australia and have a better life for my family
37:20
I absolutely would do this. So it's nothing to do with race. This is about the people that exploited them coming over
37:25
And at the same time, my partner who worked in care, who was earning £12-something an hour in 2005
37:31
when we voted for Brexit in the same job, she was earning £9.25 an hour for the same reason
37:37
Yeah. Yeah. And Femi, sorry, Robert, I just want to bring Femi in on that. When we talk about legitimate concerns over immigration, I mean, surely Robert is the classic example. That's a legitimate concern over immigration, isn't it
37:48
Yeah the problem is often we blame the notion of immigrants coming here for the fact that businesses in the UK exploit people on low wages But that is a problem of our capitalist system that allows businesses to exploit people on low wages if we saw it with P Ferries after I think it was P Ferries I not sure if P There was a company recently that fired a whole bunch of its people
38:09
to replace them with foreign cheap labour. That is a capitalist practice that we should
38:13
be outlawing by strengthening unions so that that doesn't happen. And I am devastated to hear
38:19
that that happened to you. Sorry, because we haven't got long left
38:23
we need to touch on the test. Yeah, go for it. So right now, the British Medical Association
38:27
says that they've lost 4,000 doctors because of Brexit. The Nuffield Trust says that Brexit is damaging the NHS
38:35
Surrey University calculated that Brexit is costing 1,500 lives per year because of loss of EU nurses
38:40
Cancer Research UK says that Brexit is costing us life-saving cancer medicine. So this is objectively bad for the NHS
38:45
Is any of that to do with the fact that we've brought in millions of people from the third world who now staff much of the NHS
38:49
Again, saying we are too reliant on things, therefore let's stop using those, cut those things off
38:56
is not a logical argument because it means we lose the things that we need. And when you say the third world, what do you mean
39:02
Well, India, Nigeria. These are countries that many people came from. India's got a space program. Is it the third world
39:07
Many of their people live in poverty. Which, by the way, brings us back to the notion of him not being able to say that he wouldn't deport me
39:13
My parents come from Nigeria. Again, it's annoying. And on the topic of Brexit and why it is a problem
39:18
is because the concept of Brexit is about international relations, which means it's about treaties
39:22
And the Treaty of Remain was one treaty defined in an international law
39:26
leave could be literally anything else and there was no consensus among the 52% about which leave
39:30
they wanted and that's why we're in this mess where even the leave voters hate Brexit. One final
39:35
point and Billy and Coltis are coming to call in just a moment. Danny and Battles this morning James
39:38
people like FEMI are a big part of the problem with Brexit they never respected the vote like a
39:44
spoiled child throwing his toys out of the pram. So Reform UK their official position is that this
39:49
Brexit is worse than Remain. Nigel Farrar said in 2019 if given a choice between this Brexit and
39:54
and Remain wins that referendum and wins it every single time. Even they know that in order to do Brexit democratically
39:59
there would need to be a vote on the negotiated deal, but we were never given that. That is why we called for a second referendum on the Brexit deal for two years
40:07
but it was the anti-Democrats in the Reform Party, which then became an offshoot to restore
40:12
Those people are the reason why we never got a Democratic say on the deal that we have now
40:16
Charlie, briefly, I'll let you have a final word. Again, you talk about democracy. A large part of this conversation has been about immigration
40:21
The British people never voted for mass immigration, and in fact voted against it at every opportunity for at least the last 50 years
40:27
And so the idea that it's a good thing for our country, which is the position you have been defending during this conversation
40:32
is itself anti-democratic. I've just explained that the EU does not mean uncontrolled immigration because there are rules on controlling immigration and under EU rules
40:38
which was the lie that Nigel Farage told to bring us to this point. And on that note, we're going to have to leave it there
40:42
Femi, Charlie, really appreciate you both coming in. Thank you so much
#news