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German Interior Minister Alexander Dobrindt says he "cannot rule out" further terror attacks as the manhunt continues for the suspected Islamist behind the Berlin Pride attack, which left one dead and 16 injured. In the wake of the suspected Islamist terror attack, Ali Miraj and LBC callers debate whether diversity is still Britain's greatest strength, or whether concerns over integration are changing the national conversation. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #alimiraj #debate #berlin #pride #attack #news #uknews #diversity #britain #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Very good afternoon to you, Ali Maraj on LBC, four minutes past twelve
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I shall be with you until 3pm for the regular weekend shows every Saturday and Sunday from midday until three
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Hope I find you very well this Sunday afternoon. Now, I tell you this, really, really distressing scenes
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and reporting from Berlin, an absolutely beautiful city, one of my favourites
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Always enjoy going to Berlin, I go there every year. Islamist suspect named after Berlin Pride ramming attack
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This is according to the reporting so far. Police are searching for Abdul B, known to authorities in that manner
0:43
as a member of, and I quote, Islamist circles after one person was killed and 17 injured at an LGBT event
0:52
Now, police in Germany are hunting a 21-year-old Islamist. after a van rammed into a crowd at Berlin's Pride Festival
1:01
The suspect, named by police as Abdul-B, is known to authorities as a member of Islamist circles in Berlin
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He is described as slim, six foot three tall, was seen wearing a black hooded jumper and white trousers
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At least one person was killed, 17 others injured on Saturday night
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including three critically. after a white van mowed down a crowd at the event
1:28
There were further reports that people were then stabbed. Now, obviously, this is a moving situation
1:33
We don't know all the details, so we have to be very, very mindful of that. We have to also be mindful about jumping to any conclusions
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So I come to this in that spirit. But I just want to read you this
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Florian Nath, a Berlin police spokesperson, said, and I quote, the suspect is known to police. He is known to us as a member of Islamic circles here in Berlin
1:58
and our search for this person is proceeding at full speed. He added that we have still no
2:03
information whatsoever regarding his specific motives, the exact sequence of events, or his
2:10
role in the crime itself. Based on investigators' initial findings, we have already identified
2:15
a suspected perpetrator, he said. Now, as I say, I want to come at this from a position of
2:23
not jumping to conclusions. We know that there is a suspect out there. We know what his name is
2:28
We know that, according to the police, he was involved with Islamist circles
2:33
I mean, it's interesting, the use of the word Islamist versus Islamic, because Islamic circles would be the guy who's just a Muslim
2:41
hanging around, maybe going to the mosque, I don't know. nothing sinister about that islamist would imply that he has an ideology of some kind
2:52
which is driven by violent political islam the kind of a violent political islam that inspired
2:58
al-qaeda isis and all the rest and many would trace that back to the teachings and writings of
3:04
the egyptian philosopher thinker writer many many decades ago a violent form of political islam
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where theocracy is ultimately the aim. There is no space for plurality in thought within the religion itself
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And it's a my way or the highway approach to interpretation of religion
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I mean, there is plurality in Islam and there's also no compulsion in the religion. But Islamists don't really adopt those principles at all
3:35
So there's a slight confusion here right at the outset whether this person is Islamist or Islamic, i.e. just a Muslim
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But we'll find out in due course. But I want to bring this out to a broader conversation because, frankly, we keep hearing about these attacks
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And as I say, we can't draw conclusions yet about, you know, what the motive was or whether it was this guy or someone else
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But what we can draw a conclusion about is that these things happen quite a lot, don't they
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They happen a lot. They're not always committed by people who are of a Muslim faith at all
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But often they are. Too often they are. And I say this as a Muslim
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And it deeply, deeply concerns me. It has concerned me for many, many years
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as those of you who listen to my shows regularly will know. And I think that we have to have a conversation
4:25
up front and broadly about something simmering beneath the surface, right? Because it's not going to go away
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and it's just simply getting worse. And that's this. Is diversity still our strength
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Is diversity still our strength? 0345 6060 973 text 84850. The reason I ask you this is because only this week
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that trillionaire Elon Musk has given an interview to The Economist newspaper
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and basically alluding to the fact that Britain might be heading to a very difficult place
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Some would say, some would argue that it's heading to a civil war. Now, I don't want to be using terms like that particularly
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But I tell you, it's heading to, in my view, unless a grip is gotten of certain areas and certain issues, it is heading to a very, very difficult place
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And I've been viewing that difficult place for a long, long time. There's a piece by Patrick West in The Spectator
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Do you think Britain is heading towards civil war? If you spend too much time in certain nooks on social media, you are most likely to answer resolutely in the affirmative, he says
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Yet this common refrain is not only heard from outlandish elements in the alt-right, it is a worry voiced by many mainstream conservatives who fear the recent palpable growth of inter-ethnic tensions and mistrust in this country and wonder where it will all end
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Well, you can count me in that group too, by the way, the ones who wonder where it will all end, because I tell you it's not going in a great direction at the moment
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Tommy Robinson, obviously, he's been asked about this in the past and says civil war is inevitable, right
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So he's got a particular view of the world. We know that. Elon Musk the founder of SpaceX Tesla and all the rest he said that at some point he said this Let me just tell you exactly what he said so we get it perfectly right
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If you have a large and growing, rapidly growing group of people whose beliefs are anthetical to Western beliefs
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at some point there will be a reckoning. Although he admitted in the interview with The Economist that he had not been to the UK for a few years
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He said that the feeling that we are due a reckoning is not uncommon
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Certainly, there has been a growing sentiment that unprecedented levels of immigration combined with multicultural
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a multicultural model that has emphasised difference rather than unity have both destabilised and radically altered British society for the worse
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This is Patrick West in The Spectator. He cites this, a survey by More in Common last year that found that nearly half of white Britons, 44%, sometimes now, and I quote, feel like a stranger in their country
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Significantly, that figure rose to 47% for British Asians, so it's felt on both sides here
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So the white people here are feeling like strangers in their own country, and so are people of an Asian background
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So work that one out. Whether we're headed, Patrick West posits, whether we are headed for the endgame envisaged by Musk is moot
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But there is an apprehension that this country is on the point of disintegration
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This feeling is not merely supported by the growing militancy displayed by some sections of the Muslim community who harass Labour MPs in the 2024 general election
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the year that sectarian politics arrived in this country in earnest, or in their successful attempt to have Israelis banned
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from the Aston Villa versus Maccabi Tel Aviv football match last September
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last November, this fragmentation can also be witnessed in the growing parallel unrest among the white population
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Look, it's not going anywhere, and I think we need to tackle it head-on, because I don't think we're going to make much progress
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if we foot around some of these very difficult issues, and I think we need to have this in a very calm, rational
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dignified manner, but not avoid some of the really, really difficult questions that need to be asked
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And I just want to posit a few of them. Do you think, do you think that you can actually have a
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successful community in this country that is simply based around values rather than ethnic
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lineage of some kind? The reason I ask this question is because I was at a heterodox conference
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and at the University of Buckingham over the last couple of days. And this question was actually posed from the platform
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And it bristled. I bristled at this slightly because I'm thinking to myself, well, we are a very diverse nation
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What are we talking about? Massive repatriation of people of a different skin colour
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on a gargantuan scale. In that case, as I've said before, whoever comes in and wants to effect this
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is going to have to pay me a lot of money to go back to my ancestral homeland of Pakistan
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even though I was born and bred in this country. And I tell you, it's going to cost a lot of money
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because if I discount back my future earnings to today's value, they're going to have to pay me a shed load
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But on a deeper note, do we think that you can coalesce around values in a society
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Is that enough? Is that really enough? Because as was put by one of the speakers
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societies ultimately require sacrifice. And sacrifice requires loyalty
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Now, these are difficult issues to contend with and grapple with, but they are issues simmering beneath the surface
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And I think that we need to examine them very, very carefully because values and identity are not the same thing
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So this whole idea that was put forward by the German philosopher Jürgen Habermas of constitutional patriotism
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let me just tell you what it is. he developed this idea as a way for citizens to develop loyalty to a democratic political order
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without that loyalty depending on shared ethnicity, religion or ancestry. So Harbormass, who's from this Frankfurt school
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is talking about the fact that you can coalesce around constitutional principles
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Now, what are they? I don't know. respect for the rule of law, respect for minorities, respect for freedom of speech
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respect for queuing to buy fish and chips on a Friday night. I don't know what they are
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But whatever they are, I mean, Harbormat is arguing that that's enough. You can coalesce
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around that and that's enough to make a successful society. You see, I think that we need to have a
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conversation about whether that is indeed true and whether that's working. Because if you read
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the list of terrorist attacks that have occurred in recent years. They're long. Now, let me just
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play you this, which was the Polish politician back in 2018, Dominic Toczynski, who spoke with
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Cathy Newman on Channel 4, and he defended Poland's decision not to participate in the EU's mandatory
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relocation system for illegal migrants. How many refugees has Poland taken? zero and you're proud of that if you are asking me if you're if you're asking me about muslim
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muslims illegal immigration none not even one will come to poland not even one if it's illegal
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we we took over two million ukrainians who are working who are peaceful in poland we will not
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receive even one muslim because this is what we promised but i asked not about illegal immigrants
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I asked about refugees and Jean-Claude Juncker the Commission president says that you're racist
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You sound proud of the fact that you haven't taken any refugees
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Of course because this is what our people expecting from our government. That's number one
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This is why our government was elected, but this is why Poland is so safe
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This is the the reason why we had not even one terrorist attack Look at the streets in Poland and we can be called populists nationalists racists I don care I care about my family and about my country
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No terrorist attacks in Poland. Can't really argue with that, can you
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Really can't argue with that, at least not perpetrated by Islamist sympathisers
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It's very difficult to hear that. It's very difficult to listen to. But he's got a point, hasn't he? Is diversity still our strength? Robert Mdulic. Robert
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good afternoon well i mean diversity is our strength was a punch slide made for useful
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idiots to adhere to because of course anyone sensible understands that unity is where you
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get strength and you can have people from all different cultures and parts of the world but
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as long as they're united uh the common set of values your country is most likely to be the
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better for it. The diversity of our strengthening is literally for the leftist idiots
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So if you look at places like the UAE, the United Arab Emirates
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where they have I think people from two different countries, 200 different countries live there
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it's far more peaceful. They've got a far more successful de-radicalisation programme
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They've been warning us for 15 years now that we are taking people
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into our country without doing checks anymore. They come over in dinghies, and it's just inevitable
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What else do you expect if your enemies tell you we're going to send terrorists to your countries
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because you don't take the borders, you don't consider them a worthy question of debate
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or if you challenge the government policy of open borders uncontrolled, you're called a racist, this is what you end up with
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And it will carry on happening as the price of some Fabian Marxist lunatic societal reshaping
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The thing is on the Fabian Marxist lunatic reshaping, Robert, the thing with lunatic Marxists is that they always focus or tend to focus much more on economics and the oppressed and who's oppressing who in terms of ownership of capital, right, or access to capital, and less around culture
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and I think this is around culture. Now, what you're saying, Rob, at the beginning of your comments
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you said that you hinted that you can coalesce, a society can coalesce around values
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Now, I tell you this, there is an increasing number of people
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who are giving voice and they're coming from the right, yes, but they're giving voice to something
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that I feel is much more widely felt but not articulated by people yet
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but it's simmering and bubbling up, which is this, that it's not enough to coalesce around values
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that you need some sort of ethnic homogeneity in a nation to make it work
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And even if you do have immigration, you can have it, but it needs to be very, very measured, very controlled
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quite low to ensure that that ethnic homogeneity continues and people do not feel threatened by too many people coming in
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with too many different backgrounds, too many different perspectives. So values alone is not enough
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Well, look, I've heard that. I've seen that on some of the social media
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What do you think about it, Warbur? What do you think about it? Well, I just think it's a nonsense because it's such a small group of people
15:53
It's probably half of the restored people believe that stuff, right? They do
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It's not a reform. It's not reform. It's not conservatives. It's not mainstream. One thing I will say, Ali, and this is important, this is important
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Yes, you're right that traditionally the Fabian Marxists, blah, blah, blah, They create the dividing rule
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They pitch people against each other. And historically, it was on economics
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But actually, if you look at what's happening with mass uncontrolled immigration
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that is impacting on our economics. And it is causing problems. And so this is an evolution of an attack on our way of life
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It is an attack on our way of life. And the problem is, and this is why I can't abide on ever vote conservative again
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The people who are still voting Conservative live in parts of the world that just aren't subject
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to the outcomes of their policy decisions. And so until we start being serious
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and doing things like enforcing borders and checking who comes in, this will carry on and on
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This radio show, you could have substituted after the NISA tax. It would be the same conversation
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But Robert, this is the point. This is exactly the point. You're absolutely right
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And I've been banging on about this stuff, right? since the late 1990s when I was a university student at the LSE
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I mean, all of this stuff has been building and building and building. I mean, I asked Zach to produce me a list of Islamist-inspired terrorist attacks
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I mean, it was pages and pages long. I've got some of the main ones carried out here
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and it will take me minutes to talk about them, and there's so many of them across Europe, you can't keep up
17:27
Robert, thank you very much indeed for your call. Lenny in Ashford. Lenny. Good morning, Ali
17:32
Good afternoon, Lenny. Go ahead. What would you like to say? Yeah, well, I truly believe that diversity is a powder keg waiting to explode
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Why is that? Because it's basically racism in itself. Diversity in this country is giving priority for one race over another
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Why is it giving priority, Lenny? How? Well, if you look, there are many people who are not getting employed on ability
18:06
but they're getting employed on their race. Yeah, which is now beginning to backfire quite galactically, and you're right
18:13
and that has caused severe problems, and it's also caused resentments. Do you think, Lenny, that when you hear about this attack in Berlin
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and we have to wait and see what happens there, I mean, how do you feel about it
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Because I tell you, when I read about it this morning, I thought, here we go again, right? I don't want to draw conclusions because I don't know yet
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But, you know, it would not surprise me at all if this was a guy who was inspired by Islamist ideology because there have been so many in Europe over the last 25 years that the list is frankly endless Well I agree with what you just said We can come to conclusions at the moment
18:51
until all the evidence is there. But it is a warning sign, and it's frightening
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So what do we do, what do you do Lenny? Because I tell you, I went to the Muslim News Awards
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the other day. I mean, there are lots and lots of British Muslims who are working really hard
19:08
playing cricket for counties, leading surgeons, this, that, and the other. I mean, in all fields
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the media, all fields, really working hard and contributing to British life. What do we do now with where we are? Because we need to look forward into how we deal with this
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issue, which has been perpetuating, pervading our society now for the best part of 25 years
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What do we do, Lenny? Well, I can only answer that. And see, I'm not religious at all
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I believe in the fear of God. Yeah. And so when you talk about religion, I only look at it through my eyes
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Yeah. And I feel that religion was created to rob and control the masses
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And if you look at any religion, the basics of it and their strength is controlling their masses
20:02
And Islam is, what I understand, that the majority are brainwashed from birth and they've got no independent thoughts of their own
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You see, I don't agree with that, Lenny, you see, because I am a Muslim myself. I don't agree with that at all
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I think it depends on your background and it depends on what you're exposed to
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I mean, lots and lots of Muslims in this country are law-abiding citizens going about their business
20:28
privately worshipping if they're that way inclined. Not all Muslims are religious, but if they want to be religious, they can
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They can eat what they want. They can wear what they want. They can go to any mosque. And most of them, most of them would not ever think of committing any sort of terrorist atrocity
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let alone harming anyone of any kind. So it is more complicated than that
20:45
But I do think it's worth reflecting on what you said. But I don't agree with you on that particular point
20:50
Lenny, good to speak to you. Sarah in Wandsworth. Sarah. Oh, hi, Ali
20:55
Yes, I just wanted to say that I think that it's been a success
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diversity and multiculturalism in London. I was born and bred in London and still live here
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Because without London, I mean, I don't know directly after the Second World War
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but without that, well, now London would collapse. there's absolutely no doubt that without multiculturalism and diversity the basic
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services of of london would completely collapse so so so sarah let me fine i'll take that up front
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um how would you feel about an area like tower hamlets where i'm based and you look around and
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you think okay this area is not that diverse right it's very diverse in the sense that it's
21:43
largely bengali now there are white people living there of course there are but they're in a minority
21:47
Now, in a country which is essentially white Christian by background and by lineage, unless one wants to ignore the importance of lineage completely, some people do
21:58
You see, I personally feel a little bit uncomfortable if you've got areas where, you know, the white population is a minority
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I just think it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. But I think that's a separate issue
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I think that's class. I think that's a class and money problem
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Isn't it a people clubbing together issue, Sarah? Well, I mean, I'm a middle-class person
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My father wasn't, but I am. And I live in a very middle-class area
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upper middle-class area of London. I'm lucky. And it just seems to me that there are less issues
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about people gathering together of a particular... But I really do think it's a class and poverty thing
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I don't know what the money is like in Tower Hamlets. Well, it's one of the most deprived boroughs in the country
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I mean, I do take your point about class more generally, but I think that I do feel uncomfortable when we have situations
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where people are almost living parallel lives. I mean, you don't even have to access, you don't even have to learn English
23:03
if you don't want to, to access public services. No, I actually do agree with you because it's a kind of ghetto-y thing
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And my father, whose father was Sri Lankan, and he married a white woman and they lived in the 1920s in Stockwell
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And my father said that there were Cypriots. He used to say the Cypriots were very aggressive
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And anyway, but I mean, so this kind of thing has been going on, hasn't it
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But my father was brought up in poverty. So it just seems to me that the tensions, the resentments
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and all of these things are doubled and people gathering together more in a ghetto-like way
23:45
when they're under pressure, when they're economically under pressure. That might be the case
23:51
All I will say is, Sarah, when you have a political party
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which will remain nameless, standing in elections, in local elections, in a particular borough
24:01
and not a single white face appears on that election leaflet. And if people say to me, well, there's no single brown face
24:07
in a part of Yorkshire, you're missing the point, really, because it's still a largely white country and so be it
24:14
No, I do agree with you. I certainly agree with you on that
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But how on earth you, what's the word, how you sort of change that
24:25
Well, that's what we need to think about. And I think that we need to think about what we do because I'm not saying we should repatriate anyone
24:30
That's a ridiculous idea. No, it is totally ridiculous. But unless they've come here illegally and they're not British citizens, right
24:36
Then it's not ridiculous in my view. But we are where we are. But we need to now think very carefully about how we move forward from here, because I think we just need to take a massive pause on immigration in general and try and deal with the issues that we have, which are many and varied and growing
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Sarah, thank you. Is diversity still our strength
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