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Iain Dale is joined by LBC's Aggie Chambre who has the latest from Wes Streeting's resignation speech and JD Vance's reaction to the Unite the Kingdom protest. Iain is also joined by commentators Jennifer Nadel and Andrew Allison who debate on the conflation of nationalism and patriotism in the UK. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #iaindale #aggiechambre #nationalism #patriotism #ukpolitics #jdvance #wesstreeting #ukpolitics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
I wonder how many of you remember, I think it was November the 13th, 1990
0:05
Agui Chombre doesn't because she wasn't alive at that point, I don't think
0:10
1992. All right, OK, I was right. Because that was the day that Sir Geoffrey Howe made his explosive resignation speech in the House of Commons
0:18
which in the end contributed massively to Margaret Thatcher being brought down
0:24
West Streeting made his equivalent speech today and I don't think it reached that height of rhetoric
0:31
I don't think it's going to have the same effect on Keir Starmer. Maybe he didn't want it to have that effect
0:38
Maybe he's biding his time. I don't know. It's impossible to read the minds of politicians in these circumstances
0:44
But I want to pick out one thing that he said in the speech. He pointed to the fact that Labour and the country in general was losing the fight against nationalism
0:55
He cited the rise of Plaid Cymru in Wales, the SNP in Scotland and the rise of reform in England
1:01
well, actually the whole of the UK, as something that the government didn't seem to be getting a grip on
1:06
And if it didn't, that could affect our politics for generations. So my question to you in this hour is, are you as concerned as we're streeting
1:14
Or if you are a supporter of Plaid Cymru, the SNP or Reform UK, do you think it's actually frankly insulting to just diss you as a nationalist, as if being a nationalist is necessarily a bad thing or a dangerous thing
1:31
0345 6060 973. The reason I thought that was a bit of an odd thing for him to do, an odd road for him to go down
1:40
is because I think there are so many more issues that are more important to this country than that
1:46
But interested to hear your views on this. Well, Agi Schombra is going to take us through the speech
1:52
Agi? Well, it was 2.26 today, Ian, when the former health secretary stood up in the House of Commons and gave his resignation speech
2:00
He did talk about nationalism, but he elsewhere talked about the UK failing to protect young people from the AI jobs apocalypse and that the government needed to fight for young people who, for the first time in our modern history, face worse prospects than the last
2:15
He talked about the Andy Burnham by-election bid and said the battle was between progressives and reactionaries of patriots versus nationalists of hope over hate
2:27
And he said the same fight that Labour, he said, was having was for the fight of our country
2:32
Now, he talked about the difficulty of leaving government, saying it was an emotional wrench, but warned that Labour does not have time to waste in government treading water
2:43
and he talked about Labour's challenge in battling against the nationalism put forward by Reform UK and also by the SNP in Scotland
2:50
Plaid Cymru in Wales. He instead, he said, wanted to champion patriotism
2:55
and explain the differences between that and nationalism. Patriotism is not about who you exclude
3:02
It is about who you stand beside. It is not rooted in fear of change or suspicion of difference
3:09
It is rooted in solidarity, in the belief that we rise or fall together
3:15
That is the best of our country's story. A Britain where people from different backgrounds, different faiths, different nations and regions
3:23
still see themselves in one another. A country where the son of Indian pharmacists can become our first Hindu Prime Minister
3:33
without having his Englishness questioned. A patriotism built not on blood and soil, but on shared values, shared institutions and shared responsibilities
3:47
I understand that the SNP and Plaid Cymru will not see themselves in the English nationalist politics of the party that sits behind them
3:57
But nationalism is not progressive and nationalism and patriotism are not the same things Nationalism says look inward protect your own turn away from the others
4:11
Patriotism says this country is strongest when we are confident enough to be outward looking, generous and united
4:19
That was Wes Streeting in his resignation speech in the House of Commons
4:23
And in contrast that with what was said in the White House last night by the U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance, who was asked during a press briefing what he thought about the Unite the Kingdom March organized by Tommy Robinson, among others, which took place in London on Saturday
4:37
What you see all over the West, and it's kind of crazy, is this idea that the way to generate prosperity is to bring in millions and millions of unvetted people and drop them into your neighborhoods
4:49
And we simply reject that idea. So to everybody in the UK who rejects that idea, I'd encourage them to just keep on going
4:57
It's okay to want to defend your culture. It's okay to want to live in a safe neighborhood
5:01
It's okay to want your job to go to yourself and your neighbors and not to a stranger who you don't even know
5:08
It is reasonable for the people in Western societies to want to control who comes into their country and who doesn't
5:15
A lot of people, frankly, a lot of people in the media have tried to persuade all of those people that it's somehow racist to want to protect your borders
5:24
That was J.D. Vance speaking last night. Ian, I mentioned the by-election, which we now know we have a date for it
5:31
It is officially the 18th of June, so less than a month ago. I'm very weak. I'm on holiday. Can you believe it
5:37
I can't believe it. They would have done that on purpose. But we have got we had had a few candidates already confirmed
5:42
So Andy Burnham for Labour, Alan Howling, Lord Hope for the monster raving loony party, Robert Kenyon for Reform UK and Rebecca Shepard for Restore Britain
5:51
Thank you very much indeed. Well, let's get a bit of commentary on this. First of all, from Jennifer Nadal, who is chief executive of the Compassion in Politics think tank, which aims to put compassion, inclusion and cooperation at the heart of politics
6:07
Jennifer, very good evening. West Streeting there was trying to draw a distinction between nationalism and patriotism
6:12
Of course, there is a distinction. Otherwise, there would be the same word, I guess. But do you think he's barking up the right tree when he talks about the fact that if you're a nationalist, you are by definition somebody who wants to exclude people, that wants to create divides in society
6:28
I think a lot of people who would describe themselves as nationalists would reject that
6:32
I think the two terms are really easily conflated and confused and we may use nationalism in our daily conversation to mean a love of country and a love of Britain and thinking that Britain is great
6:46
But there is something pernicious, which is what Streeting was really talking about, that has arisen in this country
6:53
And that is the form of nationalism that involves waving the flag of St. George, not as a symbol of national pride or not just as a symbol of national pride
7:03
but also as a statement against others, against migrants, against people who don't necessarily look like they were born in this country or weren't born in this country
7:16
And we've seen a distinct rise in the levels of racism in this country since Brexit
7:22
And of course, in the local elections, we have just seen a huge wave of support sweeping the country for a form of nationalism that is about division
7:35
And I think the left have for too long been frightened of claiming pride of country
7:41
So I think that's what Streeting is trying to do. He's trying to say, I'm a patriot and Britain is a great nation
7:46
It welcomes those who don't, aren't born on this shore. And that we do include everyone
7:55
And I think that's great. I think it was a really positive speech. I am old enough to remember Geoffrey Howe and Michael Heseltine saying it was like being savaged by a dead sheep And Streeting had a very different tone He had an inclusive tone He tried to create the vision that we have really been lacking under Starmer
8:14
And so I think it was a good opening salvo in his leadership campaign
8:19
You do realise that you just called all Reform UK voters racist in what you just said
8:26
No, I don't think that all Reform UK voters are racist. Well, that was the implication of what you said
8:30
That was the implication. Thank you so much for picking me up on that. I don't think that
8:34
but I certainly think that there are racist elements in the party
8:38
and that while many people vote for reform because they feel they've been forgotten about
8:43
because they've been excluded, because the leader of reform has a narrative
8:47
about how we can make Britain great again, about how we can actually make Britain fair again
8:53
I get that. And that's the space, that's the vacuum that Labour has created
8:58
by not stepping in and listening to people living on the front line of societies that are struggling
9:06
and communities that are struggling. So I certainly didn't mean to imply that everyone
9:11
who votes reform is racist. I know many people who voted reform, but I certainly do think that
9:17
fringes of reform and the space that it's occupying tilt towards a form of nationalism that is
9:23
exclusive. Why is English nationalism seen by the left as something to abhor? And yet the SNP
9:32
which describes itself as a nationalist party, it's in the name, they seem to get away scot-free
9:38
because they describe themselves as a party of the left, similarly with Plaid Cymru. Like
9:42
nationalism in Scotland and Wales, good. Nationalism in England, bad. There's something
9:47
inconsistent there, isn't there? I think there is. Well, actually, I don't think there is
9:53
because I think that the Scottish National Party in Plaid Cymru and Wales are talking about having
10:00
an inclusive country. They're talking about wanting to have control of their own nation
10:06
But the kind of nations that they talk about are nations that are inclusive, that are inviting
10:11
that are founded on equality, that don't want to go backwards in time, but want to move forwards
10:15
in time and create progressive equal societies. But I don't think that's what we're hearing from
10:21
reform. What we're hearing from reform is a vision of a Britain that is founded on whiteness
10:27
Oh, for goodness sake. Do you really, you undermine your whole argument when you come
10:32
out with rubbish like that. There's nothing in reform. I mean, I'm not a reform voter
10:37
but I would never dream of saying that their platform was founded on whiteness. I mean
10:42
please. I didn't say that their platform was. I said there are fringes in there. And if you take the time to research some of the people who are funding reform, some of the people who are putting their money into it, some of the people in America who are influencing its growth and the foreign money that is coming in, you will see that they are not people who want to unite Britain
11:02
They don't want to unite this kingdom. They want a divided kingdom. They want to see the rights of ordinary citizens rolled back
11:09
And it's dangerous. But I also understand why it's appealing. And it's appealing because no one else is talking to those sections of the community that have felt excluded, not governed for
11:22
And that's what Westminster politics has failed to do, which is why we're seeing the Green Party as well coming up on the other side and the nationalists in Scotland and Wales parties that are saying we will listen to you
11:33
We will make your communities the sort of communities you want to live in, and we won't govern by elite
11:41
OK, thank you very much. That's Jennifer Nadal, Chief Executive of Compassion in Politics, an interesting name
11:48
Andrew Allison joins me now, head of campaigns for the Popular Conservatism Campaign Group
11:52
I imagine, Andrew, you weren't very impressed by what you've just heard
11:56
Not particularly, Ian. No I mean I getting rather sick and tired of people like me who want controlled immigration who want secure borders just being described as far racists Those of us who do vote for reform or are members of reform and I did leave the Conservative Party
12:14
and join reform, we're not a bunch of racists. I would suggest that what she needs to do is attend
12:21
a meeting that reform holds, either go to the conference or go to some regional meetings and
12:27
actually speak to people. It's just full of patriotic people who basically just want control
12:33
of their country, which is what Brexit was promising. But there are fringes within reform
12:38
that do meet the categorisation that she alleged there. There are some unsavoury elements. But then
12:46
again, I suppose you could argue, well, the Labour Party has those, the Conservative Party has those
12:50
Why should reform be any different? But they have found it difficult to root them out. Well, I would argue that as well, Ian, because I've come across racists before in the Conservative
12:59
Party, I've come across racists in the Labour Party as well, so there's always going to
13:03
be a fringe there. It's about rooting out that fringe, kicking those people out when they open their mouth
13:09
or put a post on Twitter or Facebook. What is the difference to you between nationalism and patriotism
13:18
I would regard myself as a patriotic person. I'm very proud of my country
13:23
I'm very proud of what it has done. I think nationalism can be insular
13:28
It can be very inward-looking. But I don't believe the majority of the British people are like that
13:33
And the reform members that I've come across, I don't believe, are like that. I think what West Streeting has to do, and other people in the Labour Party
13:40
particularly the Prime Minister, is ask, why are people going on the street
13:45
Why are they protesting? What are their problems? Instead of just categorising them as far-right racists
13:50
actually talk to them and find out what their problems are. You know, we've had more immigration into the UK since 1997
13:57
than we have from 1066 to 1997. There's no doubt that it has been a massive wave
14:03
of people coming into the country. And many people believe that we just can't cope with that
14:08
Our public services can't cope with that. That's not racist. That's just been practical
14:12
I should have said this too, Jennifer, but what I'd really like her to do
14:16
is to meet some of the people from ethnic minorities who were at that march at the weekend
14:21
And I'm not saying that everybody there was necessarily of the same view
14:26
but there were plenty of ethnic minority people that I've seen talking to camera, waving a flag at St George, actually
14:32
There was a great black guy who was born in this country, and he resents the fact that other people say to him
14:40
well, how can you be English? You're black. Well, to my mind, if you're born here, that gives you every right to say that you're English
14:48
it's not we're not a monoculture anymore and i would decry anybody whether they're reform uk
14:54
conservatives or whatever party who wants to discriminate against people on the basis of
14:59
the color of their skin but i mean surely anybody who's patriotic would want to welcome the fact
15:08
that people from different backgrounds who are maybe first or second generation immigrants
15:13
have assimilated into this country in a way that possibly they might not have done in others
15:17
yes i completely agree i i agree with that completely ian uh i i've spoken to to a number
15:24
of people at various meetings and particularly around the brexit debate time as well i remember
15:28
one i attended in bradford or somewhere near bradford um and and you had a lot of people there
15:34
who were sort of second generation immigrants some of them first generation immigrants who were very
15:38
annoyed at the amount of immigration coming in and and the people who are coming in illegally
15:43
because they had to jump through so many hoops to come here legally. And they were very proud of their country
15:48
and they disagreed with what was going on. So I think what she has to say, I mean, compassion in politics, was it, Ian
15:55
Yeah, very strange. Didn't seem very compassionate to me. Well, she wasn't very compassionate at all
16:00
and certainly not compassionate to people like me who hold those views
16:04
who are not racist. We're just patriotic people. We want control of our borders. Nothing wrong with that
16:08
It's what every other country in the world does
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