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Simon Marks joins Shelagh Fogarty to react to Trump's appearance at the new Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library. Shelagh and Simon also reflect on Trump's tenure and consider what the political landscape in the US will look like at its next milestone. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #shelaghfogarty #simonmarks #donaldtrump #trump #uspolitics #whitehouse #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
It's a big, big thing for America, this
0:03
The bicentennial, you remember, Simon, as a kid, don't you? I don't, actually
0:08
But President Donald Trump visited the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library in Medora, North Dakota
0:14
where he delivered a speech and made a joke about his sons. Now, as I see my two beautiful sons sitting there
0:20
I think I'm going to give one to myself, one to them, and we'll have a threesome, OK
0:25
I'll pick out one of the two. i'll give them the congressional medal of honor for something
0:31
for their genius at hunting and i'll get one for taking on russia russia russia or something
0:41
deary me well donald trump sorry to start here the great nation that is the united states where
0:49
it's come to after 250 years the point we're talking about the here and now and looking
0:53
backwards a bit as much as anything else. Still with the hero now, Donald Trump shared an AI
0:58
generated video of himself as a doctor treating celebrity patients, including Robert De Niro
1:03
Julia Roberts, Whoopi Goldberg and Edward Norton for, you guessed it, Trump derangement syndrome
1:10
Have you or someone you know been diagnosed with TDS? The symptoms can be relentless
1:15
Fortunately, I'm Dr. Trump and I have a treatment plan. Let's hear what some of my patients have to
1:19
say. I have been suffering for over a decade, and after listening to Dr. Trump, I can see some
1:28
results. Man, I've been suffering for years. I really didn't believe that was help out there
1:37
That was when I came across this video on TV. I really thought I was a lost cause. This was going
1:43
to affect me for the rest of my life. But after using the treatment plan, I can see a difference
1:50
I really wasn't sure I could help some of these people. They were so far gone, I wasn't really sure
2:00
I had no idea how much this was affecting my life. My work is slowed down. I'm hardly
2:06
recognizable anymore. I just needed help. I couldn't eat. I couldn't sleep. Constantly angry
2:16
I made everyone miserable around me. I feel like I've aged 20 years in the last two years
2:25
I've been so concerned. I was really starting to worry about my future
2:30
The treatment is simple. Turn off. Fake news. Say your prayers. And if you ever feel anxious
2:36
Just have a Diet Coke like me and you're going to see a remarkable difference in your life
2:41
It was interesting. Yesterday, I think it was, Morgan McSweeney gave an interview, the former advisor to Keir
2:47
Starmer, and gave an account, a very funny account, and also barely believable, but clearly
2:52
true account of the prime minister's first ever phone conversation with Donald Trump
2:58
And it was all about how Britain's foxes were getting fat and everybody else in the room
3:04
was killing themselves laughing, except for the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, whose very straight face is clearly an advantage on occasions
3:11
And it's certainly proved to be with Donald Trump, hasn't it, Simon? No question
3:15
The best thing about that visit to the Teddy Roosevelt Presidential Library
3:20
apart from the reference to the threesomes, was he goes into sort of a digitally created Oval Office
3:27
and visitors can ask an AI, Teddy Roosevelt, any question you like
3:33
So Trump, who of course is hugely admiring of Teddy Roosevelt's gunboat diplomacy in Latin America and of the key role that he played in resulting in the United States building the Panama C
3:48
So Trump says to the AI Teddy Roosevelt. Do you consider the Panama C your greatest achievement
3:57
Well, well. Right then, yes. The c stands as one of my proudest battles, no question
4:08
But greatness is a strange thing. It isn't always the biggest or boldest job that matters most
4:14
The Panama C showed what America could achieve if we held steady and acted fast when the world dragged its feet
4:21
That said, I measure my greatest work by the lives improved. The parks set aside, the food and drugs made safe
4:29
the square deal given to all, not just to a few. Still, when I stood in the mud watching those steam shovels, knowing ships would pass through, changing the world's map forever, I felt I'd left a mark that would last
4:43
OK, you did. Thank you. You can sort of see the colour slowly draining from Trump's face
4:49
And then by the time it all ends, Trump just goes, OK, great
4:53
Thank you. All a bit too presidential for him. Fantastic. I mean, we're having a bit of fun at his expense, but he has become, I mean, without a doubt, whatever you think of Donald Trump, he is going to be an incredibly consequential president, isn't he, to the future of America, if indeed it survives, which is our question
5:11
The Biden people always used to describe Joe Biden, I think, sort of absurdly, as the most consequential president since Franklin Delano Roosevelt, which was always an indefensible claim
5:23
Donald Trump is the most consequential president, certainly of our lifetimes, and I would say arguably since Franklin Delano Roosevelt
5:33
Because consequential, you know, that doesn't only carry positive meaning, it can also carry a negative connotation
5:40
isn't it exactly and he has changed the country beyond all recognition and the huge challenge for
5:48
the united states over the course of the next 50 years you know by the time it reaches its 300th
5:53
birthday if it does as a single nation state which i think is open to question is to what extent can
6:01
some of the core principles that are enshrined in the declaration of independence the bill of rights
6:06
that are enshrined, of course, in the American Constitution, truly be reinstated as operating principles
6:14
Can the democratic experiment, as we knew it up until January of 2017
6:21
in his first term, can that democratic experiment actually, in any meaningful way, revert so that the constitutional guardrails
6:30
and the checks and balances prove to be long because right now they are under unprecedented assault Well we talk more in a minute about the single nation state thing you said there
6:42
that it as an entity, the USA as an entity, as a state entity is under pressure
6:49
Let's talk about briefly our own first memories of America or American-ness because for me it's
6:56
telly. I know you went there as a kid, I didn't, but for me it's telly. I mean
7:00
you couldn't move for America the minute you switched on a television could you you had
7:05
I mean I'm going back to when I was like eight nine ten eleven started watching telling
7:09
in any real way you know you had Kojak you had uh for me Charlie's Angels Starsky and Hutch
7:16
oh I love Starsky not Hutch my best friend loved Hutch I love Starsky Starsky and Hutch the bionic
7:22
woman we used to go down to the field at the bottom of the road and we would pretend to be
7:27
Lindsay Wagner as the Bionic woman. And we'd go and we'd steal our brother's little fake pistols
7:32
from their cowboy outfits. And we'd put them in a handbag, our mother's handbag
7:37
and we'd go into the field and pretend to be Charlie's Angels. And we'd use our school bus pass as our ID and all the rest of it
7:43
But the reason I'm jabbering on about that is America, as a kid, looking at it through that lens
7:49
was all about energy and difference. It was different to our country
7:54
And it was energy and it was difference. And then as you got older and you learned about its history, the creation of America should still, despite its current difficulties, should still, in my view, be regarded as an extraordinarily great thing
8:08
Yeah, without doubt. I mean, in my era, which is pretty much the same as your era, I mean, there were American kids programs on television here
8:14
So you had HR puff and stuff and the banana splits. And we used to watch that sort of zany
8:19
Remember the monkeys? They had that TV program. And my brother and I would watch that kind of zany stuff and go, what's all that about
8:26
And then, of course, we were, you know, a Dallas family and a Starsky and Hutch family and a Kojak family
8:32
You know, all of that kind of stuff. I mean, we were also a big Alistair Cook household
8:38
So my parents were glued to America. So Alistair Cook, the veteran long-term BBC presence in New York
8:47
who authored a weekly letter from America for BBC World Service and Radio 4
8:54
but also produced a television series called America, simply Alistair Cook's America
8:59
And there's a book that goes with it. I've still got that on the bookshelf at home here in London. Did you think that gave you your interest that's led to how you lived
9:05
Yeah, I think so, a bit, yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, it was at the time viewed by all of us here as exotic
9:13
because, you know, it wasn't that easy to jump on a plane in those days and travel. That was a big deal
9:18
And I always think that when I see it now, I always think of the Fawlty Towers Waldorf salad episode
9:25
where Basil Fawlty is hosting an American and his wife who arrive at the hotel late at night
9:32
and expect American-style service in a kitchen that is not able to offer it
9:37
And he's demanding, as everybody knows, the Waldorf salad. But the wife in that episode of the American businessman
9:42
who's British and has moved out to California, and Sybil sits there and says, what's it like
9:49
And she says, oh, orange juice flows like rivers down a mountain
9:54
I mean, when we first saw that in the 1970s, 70s all of us who saw it could completely relate to that vision of america and it isn't just fiction
10:04
i mean that we're talking about mostly fictional things but it's not it's not just fiction is it
10:07
because when you think of how it began and why it began and what it began it is one of the most
10:15
extraordinary slices of human history i think the creation of america well i always think when i
10:19
travel around the united states one of the most staggering realizations is that unless you are in
10:24
areas of the country that were settled by indigenous but that were populated by indigenous
10:29
people and i've spent a lot of time in various parts of the country on native american reservations
10:33
and that kind of thing but unless you do that every single building that you look look at
10:38
is basically no more than 300 years old at the outside and then you come to london and you wander
10:45
through the streets and the back streets of london and you realize just how you know you find a pub
10:50
that's been there since 1300, you know. So the achievement is staggering
10:56
when you look at what was built on the island of Manhattan
11:00
These eye-watering skyscrapers, themselves an absolute symbol of the aims and ambitions
11:07
of the country to soar. The immigrants that came and made America
11:12
And that, of course, is the most astonishing thing about where we are now
11:17
You know, the Statue of Liberty will be the centrepiece of New York's celebrations this weekend in New York Harbor
11:24
Are we sure it won't be Taylor Swift's wedding? Well, it might be that. Come on to that in a minute
11:29
But, you know, this notion that the Statue of Liberty has that poem engraved on it that talks about, you know
11:36
bring me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses. At a time when America's doors are now sealed
11:43
to anyone who is not basically a white Afrikaner farmer. Those are the only people being allowed into the country
11:51
With now the Trump administration setting for ICE and the Border Patrol targets of 2,000 arrests a day
11:58
because they want to pick up the pace of mass deportations after they lost the birthright citizenship ruling in the Supreme Court this week
12:05
the claim that it was not constitutional, that any baby born on American soil
12:12
regardless of parentage, that was thrown out by the Supreme Court because it's written in the Constitution in black and white
12:19
Yeah, a big defeat for him that was always going to happen, for Trump. Exactly. So now the talk on the part of Stephen Miller
12:24
you know, the Trump ideologue in chief, is, well, we mustn't let any pregnant women into the country
12:30
because we've got to crack down on birth tourism. I mean, that's the extent to which this has gone
12:36
And it's so counterintuitive. It is so counterintuitive to the beginnings. It doesn't mean that they didn't need to fix
12:42
what was happening with the illegal immigration because there were elements of it that they absolutely had to address
12:47
Again, the whole question of how they addressed it is another one. But I was reading an account of a young Somali-American
12:53
who's lived in America since he was, since 2013. He was a teenager when he came, young man, working, doing well
13:03
you know, doing okay, living a life. And he was asked in the article I was reading what it meant to him to be American He was obsessed by America through television as a kid and he was in Somalia and was having to try to not to become a child
13:17
soldier, hiding in ditches from Al-Shabaab and all the rest of it along with his family. So fear was
13:22
a big part of growing up. And he was asked what America means to him and he says freedom
13:28
living the next day, breathing the next day. I really wanted that. And you know that's not
13:35
That's not a big car and a big house. That is the chance at living
13:40
Takes you all the way back to the Constitution, to the Declaration of Independence. It was the Declaration of Independence
13:45
a life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is what it's all about
13:50
Ronald Reagan talking about the shining city on the hill. You can argue, and we did argue at the time
13:56
that that might have been overstated, the beacon of democracy for the rest of the world
14:01
even as, you know, Reagan himself was engaged in many counter-democratic actions
14:06
But if you're like that young man, you're escaping almost certain death. Yeah, absolutely. And it is the shining city on the hill, isn't it
14:12
And now suddenly it's become the country that wants to kick you out
14:15
Yeah. Even if you've succeeded in becoming an American citizen, screening hundreds of thousands of naturalised citizens now
14:24
to see whether any of them can be stripped of their passports so that they can then be deported
14:30
and so for all of those many people overseas from countries that are not South Africa and that are
14:38
not white Afrikaners that in some cases had already been vetted to receive refugee status
14:45
that in some cases are in America and have got temporary protected status that has been now
14:50
removed by the Trump administration Haitians and Syrians are about to be the next group
14:56
that face being rounded up. That dream is over. And how that policy gets changed or corrected
15:07
becomes enormously complicated for the Democrats, because their legacy now is Joe Biden's America
15:16
And when Donald Trump says Joe Biden let far too many people in, even Joe Biden admitted he let far
15:21
too many people in, that this was essentially an open door policy. It took Kamala Harris
15:26
who was supposedly in charge of the immigration issue for many, many months before, first of all
15:31
she actually visited the border. And secondly, she articulated the message to people
15:36
do not come if you don't have, you know, grounds for being here. So they are inheriting that mess
15:44
the Democrats, and they will be very, very heavily scrutinized for how they respond to it
15:49
It'll be just one example of how much or not the Trump change of America, changes of America can be undone, won't it
15:59
Big test. I'm just back from a business trip. And I used to have a business in America, actually
16:04
But anyway, I was at the Jacob Javits Center, which is our equivalent of Excel
16:10
And I was at a business startup show. And I noticed thousands of children, I would say between the ages of 13 and 16, milling around with lanyards and everything
16:22
And I asked the organizer, what is this? And she said, well, right across America, we invite kids of that age group to come up with virtual ideas to start a business
16:34
come in, she said, to the hall, sit down at the table with bankers from Goldman Sachs who are acting as judges
16:41
to listen to the elevator pitch that these kids put forward. I couldn't believe it, Sheila, the articulate delivery of children of Chinese background, Japanese background
16:53
Indian background, all with strong American accents, all of whom swear allegiance to the flag every morning
17:01
The point I'm making is that in America, trying to build businesses, develop new ideas is very much in their culture
17:13
And it still is. There's like a silo. There's like a business development silo
17:20
And there's a political silo. But the political silo doesn't get in the way of business
17:25
It wants people to make money. and it's starting with kids all over the schools of america and were their ideas good very good i
17:34
mean there was one kid who came from the chicago area who said that there are too many baits coming
17:40
off fishermen's lines there's a lot of lakes around there and that you know the lead from
17:45
the baits is getting to the fish and we're eating the fish so she has developed a biodegradable
17:51
bait so that if it comes off the hook it will biodegrade and not affect anybody and
17:58
i tell you that the person who goldman sacks stuck his card across the table and said call me in two
18:05
years she was 16 was she this kid she was 14 and honestly she walked up to the table and she was
18:14
so articulate and she wasn't the only one we heard lots of different i mean it was it was amazing
18:20
Well, that's a nice reflection on that. American politics doesn't get in the way of business
18:26
Well, I think you could have argued that up until the last, you know, 16 or 17 months, perhaps
18:34
But American politics is absolutely now getting in the way of business
18:39
Well, front page story in the Financial Times today is about basically Trump proposing to take a 5% stake in AI companies
18:49
in order to make sure that they're offering a mistake in their companies
18:53
in a bid to get what they want done through the government
18:57
I mean, Trump has completely upended this notion that Republicans are always totally in favour of untrammeled free enterprise
19:04
because he keeps trying to strong-arm, and he was talking about this on CNBC the other night
19:08
strong-arm companies into giving the government a percentage of their business. I mean, it's not the full-scale nationalisation of business
19:17
but it's certainly government taking a position in some of these key businesses
19:22
I mean, on the point, though, there about that kind of that sort of shark tank sort of style event
19:27
I mean, I think it's a really interesting aspect of life in America that people still do strive for the possibilities
19:35
Is there a kind of openness to failing that I don't think
19:38
Yeah, I think there is. Yes, absolutely. I think there is I think that there is an openness to failing and I don think that there is the same sort of not shame in failing but the same embarrassment about failing I think when Americans fail they pick themselves up and they start over
19:53
again very quickly. Because in a way, if your whole country is an experiment, then why not try
19:58
things? Yes. Joe Biden always used to say of his relationship with Xi Jinping, because of course
20:02
they had known each other before they were both presidents of their respective countries
20:07
that when he first met President Xi and President Xi came to America and he took him out to
20:12
Iowa to examine some agricultural sites, because President Xi at that point was in charge of an
20:17
agricultural, predominantly agricultural area of China. He asked President Xi, you know, what he
20:25
thought of when he thought of America, what was it that made America different? And he said that
20:31
Xi Jinping turned to him and simply said, possibilities. And I think, you know, that that
20:37
is still believed by millions of Americans, that the art of the possible is still possible
20:45
Well, it's good to hear that, because it has to be believed in to be done, doesn't it
20:49
Well, look, this is the country that's won more Nobel Prizes than any other country. I mean, this is..
20:53
Don't mention the Nobel Prizes. It's not going to win one of them. One person isn't going to win one of them
20:59
But, you know, this is a country of astonishing achievement, remarkable universities, incredible institutions
21:07
remarkable corporate vehicles that have created wealth, obviously, for their owners, but also for many other people as well
21:17
Daniel, let's call from Golders Green. Hello, Daniel. Hi, Sheila. How are you? Fine, thanks. Yeah, America. America the brave. Go on
21:23
Yeah, America the brave, indeed. Well, a phrase comes to mind, Sheila, when you want to sum up America
21:30
and the world, really, or in the context of the world, And that is America innovates, China imitates and Europe regulates
21:38
And I think whilst America still is sort of a really forward looking, innovative country where they celebrate wealth and success
21:45
I think, unfortunately, their politicians from George W. Bush with his war in Iraq to Obama with his red lines in Syria
21:55
where he basically did nothing from Biden, who unfortunately kind of went senile in front of the world's eyes
22:01
now to Donald Trump, who increasingly seems to be going completely mad, and his tariffs and his war in Iran
22:07
I think the politicians, the US presidents, have let down what is an amazing country
22:13
And you wouldn't just include Trump in that? In what sense? Letting down the country
22:20
I would include all of them. I would include Trump there. I think he's done immense damage with his tariffs
22:26
Sorry, but not just him. You're critical of Biden as well. Absolutely
22:30
and Obama. I think, you know, American people, I've got family in America, Sheila
22:35
and they're setting up businesses and they're actually doing really well now. And they're, you know
22:39
but, you know, what successive US presidents have done to America and to American people is terrible
22:49
You know, you look at the military interventions, you look at the complete madnesses that they're engaged in
22:55
and it's really unfortunate. Daniel, it's Simon Marks here. I mean, I know you've been on your own personal journey vis-a-vis Donald Trump over the last 16 months
23:04
And I mean, I think you're making very, very important and apposite points
23:10
I mean, if you listen to what Barack Obama was saying when he was on the campaign trail, not just in 2024, but in 2020
23:19
I mean, every time Barack Obama goes out there and campaigns for whoever the Democrat is that's running for office
23:25
his message to the American people always boils down to I know we let you down I know we're not
23:32
great but look at him look at Trump look at the other side you can't vote for those people even
23:39
though you know that when you vote for us we're really not going to do all the things that you we promised that we're going to do for you and there is that sense I think of disappointment
23:47
and betrayal on the part of the political class similar thing here and we've also seen you know
23:53
a generation of mature politicians from both sides of the political divide in America who used
24:00
to come to Washington to sit down in what were at the time smoke-filled rooms and find ways of
24:07
engaging in compromise because they thought that their job was to come to Washington to legislate
24:14
on behalf of the American people, all the American people. Now it has become, and this dates way back
24:21
I mean, this goes all the way back to Sarah Palin and the Tea Party. You could even go back to Pat Buchanan
24:26
You know, these figures that want to be tribal, polarised, and are absolutely uninterested in finding compromise
24:38
And they exist on both sides as well now. And before I lose you, thank you, Daniel, for your call
24:42
Before I lose you, Simon, one of your earliest experiences thinking about America
24:50
was around Watergate, and I think it's probably the first American news story I remember
24:55
Yeah, I mean, we would have both been about the same age. And, I mean, Nixon let the country down, didn't he
25:01
Oh, absolutely. But now we're bizarrely in a point where last week
25:05
J.D. Vence, the vice president, said, if Watergate happened today, wouldn't even be a story
25:10
You know, it would be more than a 24-hour story. Is he right? No, no, he's not right
25:14
Well, I mean, Donald Trump would get away with it, but no other American president would get away with it
25:20
Because Trump can get away with absolutely anything. Why is that? Because he has..
25:24
Is that a mystery or...? No, I think it's because of the sheer force of his personality
25:28
It's because of his determination not to be held back by anything
25:32
I mean, Nixon was undone ultimately by Congress. It wasn't the lie, it was the cover-up
25:37
There's a different time, completely different time. But I don't think any other politician today
25:41
would get away with the stuff that Donald Trump gets away with. But for me, you know, Watergate was on television here
25:48
I mean, the hearings were televised live here. I remember every afternoon, I think it was ITV or BBC Two
25:53
they carried the hearings wall to wall. And we were a household where the news was talked about all the time
25:59
and I loved TV. So any excuse to sit down in front of the telly, I grabbed and I watched it
26:04
I really enjoyed this little insight into how Simon Marks, LBC's Washington correspondent, became Simon Marks
26:11
LBC's Washington correspondent. He was watching the Watergate hearings while I was pretending to be the bionic woman
26:18
and ladies and gentlemen i give you my history
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