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This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 8th of June, 2026. 00:00 - How easy is it for social media companies to limit bad content? 01:26:33 - Trump ends interview after clash over ‘rigged election’ claim 01:39:00 – Netanyahu orders Iran strikes despite Trump claiming ‘I call all the shots’ - what happens when two narcissists disagree? Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jamesobrien #politics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Three minutes after ten, and now my brain, instead of focusing on the stuff that we are going to be talking about this morning
0:09
now my brain's obsessing about the right words to use. So if we eschew, I love that word by the way, if we eschew geek and nerd
0:18
I know that they've kind of been reclaimed by the tech literate community
0:24
They're badges that are sometimes worn with pride. But if we were to eschew those words
0:29
what would we be left with in the search for people who really know what they're talking about
0:34
Boffin? Boffin sounds a little bit otherworldly, doesn't it? It sort of casts you as somebody who's a little bit removed from reality
0:42
a little bit perhaps an inhabitant of an ivory tower. A boffin, a geek, a nerd, a boffin
0:51
Anyway, I don't know. You can make suggestions if you want on that. You always seem to enjoy that, you know
0:55
Sometimes I worry that you enjoy these, I suppose I do as well, these sort of semantic meanderings
1:01
more than you actually enjoy the meat and drink of the programme
1:05
that we put together together every day. There's quite a felicitous use of words there as well, wasn't there
1:11
Together, together. Who wouldn't have thought that together, together would sound right in a sentence
1:16
but they do. The programme that we put together, together every day. I like that
1:20
Together, together. All right, I'll stop now, I promise. um have a little listen in a minute to what keir starmer had to say a moment ago just the little
1:29
clip that we played in the news you've heard you've heard it already but i just want to i want to play
1:33
that to you again shortly because i have thoughts i have thoughts my first thought is we haven't
1:40
spent enough time yeah if we all decide the expert is the right word i'm going to feel like a bit of
1:45
a doofus aren't i expert expert but an expert means that you work in the sector you don't necessarily
1:52
need to work in the sector. Anyway, I digress once again. I listened to what Keir Starmer says
2:00
this morning. I recognize, I think, more than ever, my recognition of this has grown exponentially
2:07
that the threat that technology, that social media, that many of these apps and
2:13
programs pose to humanity itself, it cannot be overestimated. We've already done it with
2:22
tobacco. And I mean, if we lived in a vaguely sensible universe, we'd have done it
2:27
comprehensively and unanimously with fossil fuels as well. But of course, we don't live in a
2:32
sensible or rational universe. We live in a universe where discourse is dominated by
2:37
people in pursuit of profit. So it took a very, very long time for tobacco to be universally
2:44
recognized as a force for bad. Young people don't believe me when I tell them that there
2:49
There were advertisements, I think, as recently as certainly the 50s, possibly the 60s, even maybe the 70s
2:55
where cigarettes would be cast in adverts, not just as glamorous, but as positively healthy
3:01
I don't think I ever saw a slogan that said, a cigarette a day keeps a doctor away
3:05
but I would not be amazed if something similar had not appeared on billboards in the United States of America
3:10
and quite possibly here as well. So we do, as a species, as societies
3:18
We do move, you know, even though it sometimes feels that we live in places where nobody ever changes their mind about anything
3:25
We do move. I think often of the seatbelt ban for reasons that I don't fully understand
3:30
I think as I was of an age where it seemed to me to be really notable and significant that politicians would come in and ban something that was entirely normal
3:40
driving around the place without having a seatbelt on, having your kids rattling around in the back of the car
3:46
not strapped in. Not even dreaming of having special chairs for little people
3:52
for children, that they would be bolted into doubly, so the chair would be bolted to the car seat
3:58
to the car, and the child would be bolted to the seat
4:02
that was bolted to the car. All of these things, if you were born in the 1970s, I was born in 1972, all of these things were unthinkable
4:08
I mean, just absolutely extra. Drink driving. Relatively commonplace. I presume it was always illegal, but I wouldn't put my life on it
4:17
Seat belts in cars, smoking. Cigarettes wherever you wanted. We change, you know, electric cars
4:26
I know some poor souls are still laboring under the illusion that this is not a necessary and desirable transformation of normality
4:34
but goodness me. All of these things prove that when the moment comes or when the pips squeak or when the issue becomes absolutely acute and unignorable, politicians can do the right thing
4:49
And I think, I think that social media is going to be in that category
4:57
I think it already is for many people. But I think it's clear that we're going to look back and wonder
5:03
how on earth it took so long to begin to put the fires out
5:08
You know? To begin to put the seatbelts on. To begin to ban the smoke
5:16
To begin to take away the alcohol from the people driving cars
5:21
To begin to take away the petrol from the people driving cars
5:26
I think we're going to look back and see it in those spaces. And I find this really interesting because there's a social dichotomy here
5:35
Because on the one hand, you've got moral panics, which always turn out to be bogus
5:42
Video didn't kill the radio star. Thank goodness. Video games have not brought our youth to their knees
5:51
albeit there might be some crossover between games and the conversation we're going to have this hour
5:56
the idea that grand theft auto or call of duty was going to raise generations of sociopaths has not come to pass
6:06
rap music has not rendered civilization reverse you know all of the moral panics over the ages over the short skirts mini skirts and flappers
6:19
You go back far enough into the last century, there'll be all sorts of things that were cited
6:22
Votes for women. Snuff. Actually, no, not snuff. That's bad. But all of the things that were cited as harbingers of..
6:31
Is it harbingers or harbingers, Keith? I never know, actually. It's definitely one of them
6:35
You're quite right. Harbingers of imminent societal collapse turn out not to have brought about societal collapse
6:42
And not just societal collapse. They turned out not to be anywhere near as awful
6:48
as we were told they were going to be. And part of that is the business models that we talk about every day
6:54
It's a lot easier to sell tickets for the ghost train than it is for the Speak Your Way machine
6:59
But part of it is also the slow journey of discovery that things are not as bad as we're being told
7:04
But I think with social media there are. I met an amazing woman last week, Beban Kidron
7:09
You'll know her as a film director, whether you recognise the name or not
7:13
And in 2012, she made a film called In Real Life and realized while making it the threat
7:20
that this technology posed to young people and therefore decided to stop making films and to dedicate the rest of her working life to sounding the alarm and looking for solutions So she currently going through a period that I presume is 52 vindication and 48 better late than never lads
7:37
Where the heck have you been? She now sits Baroness, Kidron. She now sits in the House of Lords where she concerns herself with matters technological almost, almost, but not quite exclusively
7:49
So now we know. We really, really know. We know exactly, or we certainly have little doubt about the scale of the threats that are posed
8:00
And cometh the hour, cometh the man. Hmm. This is not an impossible challenge
8:09
These are the sum of the most innovative companies in the world. And I believe they can solve it
8:15
But if they choose not to, then we will act and we will change the law
8:20
because when it comes to the safety of our children, standing by is not an option
8:26
Right. I can't believe what I've just heard. I'm not a fully made-up member
8:33
fully paid-up member of the I Hate Keir Starmer Club, but I cannot believe the flimsiness of what I have just heard
8:42
I am open to persuasion. You are more than welcome to tell me that this is not as mealy-mouthed and as pathetic as it sounds to me
8:49
And I don't really want to do this because, you know, even if it's a conservative politician, if everybody's having a pop at them, there's a little bit of my character that sort of makes me feel sorry for them and wants to offer up some sort of defense
9:02
But I cannot believe how pathetic that sounds. And so pathetic it is, I think it probably merits just listening to more closely one more time
9:13
This is not an impossible challenge. These are the sum of the most innovative companies in the world
9:19
and I believe they can solve it. But if they choose not to
9:23
then we will act and we will change the law because when it comes to the safety of our children
9:30
standing by is not an option. Unless I'm missing something significant here
9:37
the man appears to be operating in an experiential vacuum. Guess what, Sir Keir
9:44
In 2010, they chose to do nothing. In 2011, they chose to do nothing
9:52
In 2012, they chose to do nothing. In 2003, I could go on
9:58
In fact, I might. Or we could hit the junction on time for the first time in living memory
10:03
They always choose to do nothing, mate. They always choose to do nothing
10:07
How many times have we sat here and said, they won't do anything unless it costs them more money not to do it than it does to do it
10:17
They won't do anything. They won't do anything at all unless they absolutely have to
10:25
And it may be that you can affect some sort of societal pressure
10:30
As we saw with diversity, equality and inclusion training, society became a place where companies felt that they had to actually recognise
10:40
the baked-in inequalities and the endemic iniquities of our societies. But then people like Donald Trump end up in the White House
10:47
and companies that were making all the right noises and saying all the right things about equity and diversity
10:53
suddenly abandoned their plans entirely. So even then, when you leave it to choice rather than legislation
11:00
it's imminently and immediately reversible. A change in the weather, a change in the wind
11:05
a change in the White House, and all the best-laid plans of mice and men can be tossed out of the window in a nanosecond
11:13
So it has to be legislation. Surely it has to be law. It is going to people like Elon Musk and saying, oh, please
11:24
Elon Musk, who routinely lies about and maligns and incites people in this country
11:32
is being politely requested to stop allowing people to use his platform
11:37
to create child sex abuse images, fake child sex abuse images. Oh, yes, all right then, Prime Minister, of course I will
11:44
by the way um down with you mark zucker i mean i don't know what technologies what platforms i
11:52
don't know the ins and the outs of it but i do know this without legislation nothing's going to
12:01
happen and without legislation even if something happens it happens until the weather changes
12:07
or the government changes if you if there's no legislation there do you think for example
12:13
in the not far from impossible prospects of Nigel Farage becoming Prime Minister
12:19
do you think he's going to say to the people that we either know have given him millions of pounds secretly
12:24
except not that secretly, or the people who have given him millions of pounds secretly that we don't actually know about
12:29
do you think he's going to turn around to them and say, I'm terribly sorry, chaps, thanks for all the money, but I'm going to make your life a lot harder now
12:35
I'm going to make your profits smaller. I'm going to insist that you spend money on protecting our children
12:40
Of course he isn't. So without legislation, this seems to me to be an almost entirely pointless exercise
12:47
And for some reason, maybe he was told that it was technologically impossible to do what was promised
12:53
but they were briefing journalists yesterday that a ban was set to be announced today
12:58
A ban on social media for under-16s. The children's czar, in fact, has been calling for a ban on social media for under-18s to extend it still further
13:09
The Times newspaper reports on its front page this morning that the Prime Minister is preparing to announce a ban
13:15
on harmful social media platforms. They might have spun what they were told
13:20
or they might have been slightly misled, or they might have misunderstood
13:24
or they might have been told that that was what was going to happen and then it didn't happen, and then it didn't happen
13:30
17 minutes after 10 is the time. so there are two elements to this aren't there
13:39
there is the thing that we can't know until it actually happens but we're pretty sure we do
13:45
know i.e. none of these platforms are going to do anything substantive
13:49
or meaningful or expensive unless they absolutely have to you by the way your children by the way are the
13:57
commodity here if you don't know this already then please don't shoot the messenger but it is
14:02
it's their attention that has had the dollar signs attached to it
14:08
So anything that reduces the amount that they use this technology is a bad thing from the point of view of the people providing the technology
14:18
Absolutely anything that reduces the amount of time they spend on there
14:22
is a bad thing. So if they're spending all their time on there looking at images
14:27
I'm not being lighthearted now, I don't know if this merits a trigger warning, but I'm going to say something difficult
14:32
Looking at images of children self-harming and being told that it's some sort of glamorous subculture
14:38
Looking at images of eating disorders and being told that it's a somehow desirable life goal
14:43
Looking at pornographic images, potentially even of each other. Anything that reduces the amount of time
14:49
that these people, these children spend on these platforms is as kryptonite to the people that own the platforms is to Superman And I don think Keir Starmer understands that I honestly don Oh please
15:05
And if you don't, things will happen. Such things I know not, but they shall be the terror of the earth
15:11
He'll say, oh, I'll give you three months to sort it out. But if you don't, then, whoa, something bad's going to happen
15:18
Ah. So I can do the politics of it, and I think I can do the sociology of it
15:24
and I can do the behavioral science of it, but I can't do the technology of it. I need your help with this
15:29
I need your help with this. How, I mean, so, because that's the bit we can answer, hopefully
15:34
or you can, I can't. None of us can answer, will this work without legislation
15:38
Although I suspect 99% of us are shouting no into the ether
15:43
But how easy is it for these companies to seriously limit access to the bad stuff
15:52
and that is my question for you first doors this morning early doors this morning first things first
15:58
this morning and listen i don't want to i've already stereotyped you enough by suggesting
16:03
that we shouldn't call you a geek or a nerd and you might not like being called a boffin so i'm just going to call you an expert somebody knowledgeable you might be too modest to think
16:10
of yourself as an expert you might not be the sort of person that rings a radio station ever let alone on a regular basis but i just want to know snapchat twitter facebook instagram
16:21
all of it, how easy would it be for the human beings that own these companies to order their
16:29
staff, to order their staff to protect our children? That's what I want to know. What would
16:37
it look like? How feasible would it be? How expensive would it be? And as a second course
16:43
for putting today the question of whether or not they are likely to do that or indeed anything
16:48
unless they are compelled to. Okay? How easy would it be to protect our children
16:55
from the horrors of social media platforms in particular and technology in general
17:03
But we'll start with the social media platforms because it's easier to get into. All right? Hit the numbers now
17:07
You will get through. 0345 6060 973. Because I don't do conspiracy theories
17:16
until I do. And it looks to me like he was minded
17:22
to announce some sort of ban and someone got to him. James O'Brien on LBC
17:30
22 minutes after 10 is the time because I don't know. I mean, I actually don't know
17:37
I presume that harmful social media is easily removed from the diet
17:43
that our children are being fed on an almost daily basis. But I am not an expert in this field
17:49
and I listen to the people who have been charged with leading this country
17:54
and they seem today to have bottled the notion of delivering that sort of ban
18:01
of removing this sort of content. And it makes me wonder two things
18:04
Is it an act of cowardice? Or is it an act of technological inevitability
18:10
Has Keir Starmer bottled this? Or have they decided that it can't be done
18:15
0345 6060 973 because for the third time I just want you to listen to what he actually said
18:23
and I want you to tell me that it is not as I fear pathetic
18:28
this is not an impossible challenge these are the sum of the most innovative companies in the world
18:34
and I believe they can solve it but if they choose not to
18:39
then we will act and we will change the law because when it comes to the safety of our children
18:45
standing by is not an option. So what would it involve? What would the companies need to do
18:52
What would the... There's a problem in this country. I don't... Obviously, it's not going to be true in Silicon Valley
18:57
but there's a problem in this country, partly linked to the sort of negative relationship
19:02
with mathematics, that the idea that we don't think it's cool to be into maths
19:07
and we don't think it's cool to be into tech. And part of that, I think, feeds into the idea
19:11
that we actually don't know whether or not it is possible or whether or not it is easy
19:17
or whether or not it is feasible for a government to remove the bad stuff
19:23
In Australia, I think they went the whole hog and banned kids from the platforms entirely
19:27
The messages there are mixed. And, of course, we rely so much on social media
19:32
or social media-adjacent commentary now that we're probably going to struggle to get an unbiased ysis
19:37
of what has gone on in Australia. But that's not what Keir Starmer is proposing
19:40
He is politely asking the social media companies to look after our children
19:47
And he doesn't seem to know either why they haven't already, whether or not they are likely to
19:56
or why he wouldn't just introduce the legislation that's necessary to prevent them from doing this
20:03
or to prevent our children from accessing this stuff overnight. And that is what I really need your help with
20:09
And normally on a day like today, I can talk until 11 o'clock from various different angles about various different ramifications, but I've got nothing left. I honestly don't know. I presume that if a gambling application, for example, can introduce proper age verification, then so can social media
20:28
And I don't really care about loopholes or swing-arounds. I don't care that it won't be perfect
20:34
because if ever the argument that we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good applies
20:39
then it applies in places like this. And then we have the politics of it
20:43
Did it sound to you, as it did to me, regretfully, that Keir Starmer just bottled something quite significant
20:49
26 minutes after 10 is the time. Hi, James, writes Simon. It's so disappointing and half-hearted again from Starmer
20:55
And listen, the problem here now is if you're a fully paid up member of the Starmer Defence Front
21:01
and that's fine, I admire your loyalty, you can't just reach for the defences here that are undetailed
21:09
You have to explain why it's a good idea not to just order them to do it
21:13
instead of saying, please, would you mind doing this thing that you could have done 10 years ago, you could have done 5 years ago
21:18
you could have done yesterday, you haven't done today, you probably won't do it tomorrow, but if you haven't done it within 3 months, then we're going to do something
21:25
Simon goes on, what happened to moving away from incremental change and towards bold action
21:31
Which I think is a really valid point. And Helen says the complaints won't bother
21:35
the companies won't bother with filtering the bad stuff. They will either block any internet traffic from the UK
21:41
because that's easier, or force people to scan ID before logging in or creating accounts
21:47
The problem with that is anyone can go on Google Images and find an ID of someone over 18 and upload that to gain access
21:53
This is the question that I need answers to, is how feasible is it
21:57
How easy is it to sit here and say, you can't do this anymore
22:04
For the companies to say, what would be the best examples you can think of where companies have been compelled by law to limit or reduce their own profits
22:12
to reduce the amounts of money that they make? You'd sort of think of, they've tried it with pornography
22:19
I don't even know whether that's worked or not, and that was for over 18s. That's age verification
22:23
I know it went off a cliff fairly quickly overnight but I imagine people are finding their kicks and getting their thrills down slightly different avenues You think of cigarettes tobacco companies essentially being ordered to cut off revenue streams overnight
22:37
and they immediately pop back up with vapes and other alternatives. But the principle of expecting hugely profitable companies to limit or minimise their own profits seems to me to be pie in the sky
22:50
They will not do it until they are forced to, which is why I'm today leaning towards he's bottled it
22:57
And what he's announced, what he has sought, is what some MPs are describing as part of his so-called legacy era
23:03
is objectively pathetic. Angela is in Carmarthen. Angela, what would you like to say
23:09
Hello, James. I'd like to say two things. The first thing is I think smartphones need to be banned
23:17
for children under the age of 16. So that's easy to do, right
23:21
I mean, you won't stop all children from having them, but that would be law, so you wouldn't be able to buy them
23:26
like you can't buy alcohol or cigarettes. Absolutely. They can have a normal phone
23:29
but it cannot have any access. Yeah, but if I go out and buy a phone as a 54-year-old
23:34
I can just give it to my daughter tonight. That's true, but if somebody was to stop her
23:39
and find out that she was using... So who's going to get punished, her or me
23:44
But it was still with the cigarettes. When we had cigarettes, we weren't allowed to smoke
23:48
but 16-year-olds still did. Yes, and the shops get prosecuted for selling them to 16
23:54
so 15-year-olds, but not if somebody, no one's ever been prosecuted for giving their child a cigarette, have they
23:59
This is true, but I still think it would still send a big message
24:04
And it's a massive kick in the profits, which is a cause... Yeah, absolutely, and it would go down
24:10
because at the moment, you know, when teenagers get of age, they start to believe that parents don't really know
24:16
and life has changed and we're all old-fashioned. Do you see what I mean
24:20
So it's really hard for parents to turn around. Our children didn't have any phones
24:27
So my 16-year-old got his first phone after his BCSC. He got a job and he bought his own phone
24:33
But up until that point, no phones. But I know to the second point that I don't know
24:40
Obviously, I haven't got the technological awareness. Well, I'm supposed to be speaking exclusively to boffins today, Angela
24:46
So now we've got two non-boffins on the radio, which is, you know, it's very pleasant
24:52
We're not delivering on our manifesto promises. Go on, carry on. But they must know how
24:59
They must surely know how to put prevention. They will do. It's just lucrative for them not to
25:06
And they will not stop. You know, my daughter, when she, I gave her an MP3 player when she was 12
25:14
and I made sure it had nothing on it. she found a way to get on some sort of kids chat room
25:19
Fortunately, I found out. And it was disgusting. Some pervert was... But neither of us know how hard it is
25:27
to actually force the companies to close that door, as it were
25:32
Which is why we need the boffins. And the boffins at the moment are thin on the ground, I have to tell you
25:37
Is that because it's a difficult question to answer? Or is it because you're too busy writing code
25:41
to contribute to this humble radio program? I just want to know, very, very simply
25:45
how easy would it be for the companies to do what Keir Starmer has politely asked them to do this morning
25:51
0345 60 973 and this you don't need particular expertise for. You probably just need to have your eyes open
25:59
and a cursory grasp of how business seems to work in this world at the moment
26:05
How likely are they to do it unless they absolutely have to
26:11
And then a little side order of politics. has Keir Starmer fluffed something this morning, bottled something this morning
26:18
that was yet another entirely avoidable problem. Here's Dominic Ellis with the headlines
26:24
James O'Brien on LBC. OK, it's 10.34 is the time. I'm going to remind you of the date, not because I'm weird
26:32
but because I think it's significant to what follows. So it's June the 8th, 2026
26:36
Let me take you back, if I may, to the 16th of April, 2026
26:41
when Starmer tells social media firms things can't go on like this
26:46
is one of the headlines that I just found. So that's two months ago
26:50
Starmer tells social media firms things can't go on like this. Spoiler alert, they did
26:56
Ten days later, UK government moved to delay social media ban faces pushback in Lourdes
27:01
Social media executives five days previously deny platforms are inherently addictive to children
27:06
Of course they do. Spoiler alert. They're lying. Again, 28th of April
27:11
Ministers open-minded on shape of UK social media limits, Philipson says. There is a distinct sense here, and these are headlines under one subject heading
27:20
a social media ban, that have appeared in the space of ten weeks under the same government
27:27
Labour, this is the 26th of May, set to announce crackdown on social media for children within weeks
27:32
Well, they haven't. They haven't announced a crackdown. They've announced a polite request to the social media companies
27:38
to start protecting our children from the worst excesses on there. and there are two questions. Number one, why aren't they being tougher
27:44
And number two, how hard would it be to be tough? I don't know the answer to either of those questions
27:48
but I've got a horrible feeling the answer to the first one is because they are, for some reason, cowardly, frightened
27:54
Jess Phillips, I think, put it brilliantly when she resigned, saying that she'd been trying to get Keir Starmer to be bold for over a year
28:02
and also claimed that she and civil servants had got a decent plan in place
28:08
So why is Keir Starmer not implementing it? Daniel's in Manchester. Daniel, what would you like to say
28:13
Hello there. Yeah, just on the topic of... Are you a boffin? I wouldn't like to call myself a boffin
28:21
but I am a software developer. I do work for a large tech company
28:25
Fantastic. So I don't think a true boffin would ever call himself a boffin. Only non-boffins would describe themselves as boffins
28:31
Go on, Daniel. I'll be quiet for a while. That may well be true. I mean, in my opinion, and I have a fair amount of experience
28:37
this is absolutely possible for images like this to be stopped. However, when you start thinking about the details
28:44
it does get more complicated. For example, if we were talking about text messages, for example
28:50
and I must add that I've only seen the headline of what Keir Starmer said today
28:54
So I don't know if it's aimed at a particular technology or whether it's just social media
29:00
But, for example, if it was... He's saying that the tech companies like Apple and Google must activate built-in features
29:05
or implement technical solutions to detect and block nude images for children
29:09
on new and existing smartphones. So that would be... Well, I don't know why I'm trying to tell you
29:15
I'm just reminding you what he said. I don't understand the ramifications, but you do
29:20
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so in my mind, one of the complicated factors in that
29:24
is that this does have to be done at a device level because unless we're happy for tech companies to read all of our text messages
29:30
which they obviously claim that they do not, and that everything is encrypted..
29:34
Do they claim that? I mean, WhatsApp does, but if I send a text message to Keith on my phone to him
29:41
no one's reading that, are they? I mean, no one's claiming that's encrypted. No, well, again, it depends on the technology
29:48
So if you're, say, on an iPhone and you're messaging iPhone to iPhone, you're probably using iMessage, which is a sort of equivalent technology to WhatsApp
29:57
Yeah, that's when it goes blue. Yeah. Absolutely. Whereas an SMS is different
30:02
But yeah, I believe that iMessage should also be encrypted as well as WhatsApp
30:08
So yeah, you're going to have to have something on the device level
30:13
But there's a difference between something that would trigger a tripwire, as it were, a technological tripwire
30:20
and somebody human reading my secret plans to take over LBC. Do you see what I mean
30:27
and alerting... So I wouldn't be compromised by someone seeing all my text messages
30:32
but if I was sending pornographic images and I was registered as being underage
30:36
then an alarm would go off, metaphorically speaking. That's quite straightforward, surely
30:42
I guess so, but again, it still depends where that is done. So I still..
30:47
Because once the messages go out and they're encrypted, the only way to see what's in them is to decrypt them
30:52
Right. So at that point, you've sort of lost that level of security
30:58
Oh, okay. So do you think that could be a reason for caution
31:02
from the Prime Minister? I mean, potentially, yeah, because I guess it depends
31:08
We've got to think about that in the way that it's implemented
31:14
But I mean, ultimately, I do believe that it can be done
31:19
And, you know, fairly often, working in this sort of sector for a long time
31:24
when the company wants something done, it's got to get done. But they've got to want it to be done
31:29
and they're not going to do it. Absolutely. I mean, I'm tempting you off-piste a little now
31:33
but, I mean, how likely are they to do anything unless they have to, if it does
31:38
reduce activity online and therefore profit? I would really like to say
31:44
that they would like to. I mean, I've worked for some great companies
31:51
and I would like to think that, you know, these are not all bad people
31:55
And by the way, I should add that I also want there to be a ban for social media and smartphones, etc
32:00
That's where I sit on the matter. But nonetheless, you know, these are not all bad people in these companies
32:06
And I would really like to think that they would do it. However, there is always going to be a lot of work that makes money
32:13
And that work is always going to be the work that is at the forefront, I think
32:18
Unless one of these companies wanted to take a stand and say, no, no, we're going to do this and we're going to do a good job of it
32:23
And that takes away camouflage for everybody else as well. Yeah. And I think if one company was to do that
32:30
then it could be a little cascading effect and then we get others doing it
32:37
So it is, I mean, they're talking about built-in features or technical solutions to detect and block nude images for children
32:45
That's doable. I think so. Yeah, absolutely. Because that would be at the device level
32:51
So, you know, there's already so much running on a smartphone. You know, I think that would be possible
33:00
I'd be very surprised if someone told me it couldn't be. It's a relatively small part of the problem as well, isn't it
33:05
Because, you know, the eating disorders, the self-harm, the incitements, all the other stuff that's on there is not necessarily touched by this
33:16
but what they do today could be expanded tomorrow. Right, Daniel, thank you
33:21
And therefore we have to, perhaps timidity is a kinder word than cowardice
33:26
We have to tick the timidity box when it comes to the question of why the government appears to have
33:32
is it oscillated or vacillated, or quite possibly both, again. There's going to be a ban, except there isn't
33:38
Robin's in Malvern, lovely part of the world. Robin, what would you like to say? Oh, good morning, James. Nice to speak to you
33:44
First I've called you in, but I have listened for quite a while. Well, that's very kind of you. It's not necessary
33:48
You can ring in having never heard a single word I've said before, but you're very, very welcome
33:53
What's on your mind? Let's give you a try. Well, it's a problem that's been around for a very, very long time
33:57
right from the start of the internet. And it was solved, in inverted commas, by America Online, AOL
34:05
Yes. And they produced something called a garden. And within that, they'd got total control
34:11
and it worked because the internet was quite small in that stage. I'm talking about 1980s, early 1990s, when it all started
34:18
The trouble is, people decided they wanted to go outside the garden. Yes
34:22
And they went on to the rest of the internet. The problem we've got is identification
34:29
And so while you've got Dad looking over and saying, no, you can't do that, it works fine
34:35
I'm slightly off away from it, but you'll see what happens. A few years before, I was an ICT teacher
34:41
I was head of ICT at Hanley Castle. Okay. And I had a meeting with one of the exam board reps
34:48
who came around saying, we want to put the exams online. Yes
34:52
I said, not going to work. He said, oh, yes, it will. We'll have all the guards in place to make sure that it is pupil James online
35:00
and we're not going to have Daniel looking over his shoulder and saying that. I said, how
35:05
If you're working at home and you're on the computer, who else is looking over your shoulder
35:11
or you log on, James logs on to his school account, moves away from the computer, his brother sits down and answers all the questions
35:21
But this is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, no? It's not going to be watertight and foolproof
35:27
but it's feasible for the companies to, for example, recognise certain types of images
35:32
know that they're occurring on a device that's registered to someone under 16 and simply not let them make their way through the sort of network
35:43
not leave one phone and head towards the other, or not arrive at the next phone, even if it leaves the first phone
35:50
I don't see how that can be possible, because I could pass you my phone
35:54
How would they know that you would not leave? I mean, you could say that about anything
35:58
I could get a fake ID and go and buy alcohol, but we still welcome the ban on under-18s buying alcohol, don't we
36:03
Absolutely, yes. We don't say there's no point having the ban because fake ideas both, A, very sophisticated these days and B, very easy to get
36:12
That is true. But the problem with the computer system is you're saying how many people do you want to be able to access it
36:19
Yeah. If the material is on the internet, and it is, and as an ICT teacher, I know that very well because I've seen it
36:27
I had to check it out myself in order to know what they were doing
36:32
that was my job as head of department so i'm aware of that that the kids will get around it
36:39
and also i reach somewhat lazily for gambling websites at this point but of course that's not
36:44
helpful because the gambling website is is pursuing an actual exchange of funds so they're going to put
36:50
things in place that allow them to continue making money banning children from gambling websites
36:56
might technically deprive them of an income stream from 15-year-old horse racing enthusiasts
37:03
but it's very different from stuff that you don't have to pay to see
37:07
Putting things in place to keep children away from that is a very different proposition
37:12
It is. And the problem is that people say we'll just ban pornographic images
37:16
How do you define a pornographic image? We'll jump off that bridge when we come to it, Robin, I think
37:21
Well for under at least you just I mean you know I know what you doing Well maybe you not but I thinking of biology textbooks now and how they might take or H magazine the House Journal of Naturists
37:37
and how I think it was filed on the top shelf in WH Smith when I was a child, but was not technically pornography
37:43
I take your point, but again, I'd file that bit of your contribution under quibble
37:48
rather than serious objection, but the other bits are serious. I don't know
37:55
I mean, maybe we're being unfair on Keir Starmer. The problem is, everybody got very excited
38:00
about the Australian social media ban, but that was a ban on everything. That was a ban on letting children get on these platforms
38:07
And a lot of children are no longer on these platforms, and quite a lot of children are still on them
38:12
or are on a new platform that has somehow... Circumvented is another great word, isn't it
38:17
That has somehow circumvented... That's the word I've been searching for since 10 o'clock this morning
38:20
Since I first said loophole, I've been trying to get the word circumvent out of the back of my brain
38:26
and I don't know this is the point Robin makes brilliantly just because you can circumvent something
38:31
doesn't mean you shouldn't have it there you know someone might be able to charm a bouncer into a nightclub
38:36
but you don't abolish bouncers as a consequence of somebody circumventing the security
38:41
but we still don't know really how easy it would be to do the things
38:49
that Keir Starmer has talked about today And, I mean, love him or loathe him, he hasn't done much
38:57
He has announced that the government wants tech firms to prevent children from sending and receiving explicit images
39:03
And that, as far as I can tell and or recall, that is pretty much it
39:10
And he's given them three months to implement the changes. What would the changes look like
39:15
03456060973. And why doesn't he just make it law? It's 1047. James O'Brien on LBC
39:23
10 to 11. Keir Starmer wants tech firms to prevent children from sending and receiving explicit images
39:33
We all do. If the technology is there, if it's easy to do it, it could have been done 10 years ago
39:39
Questions about why it wasn't will have to be answered by people who were in charge 10 years ago
39:43
But if you're asking them politely to do it today, then the fact that they didn't do it yesterday seems to me to be rather important
39:48
we will become the first country in the world where it is impossible for children to take, share
39:53
or view naked pictures on their devices which again I think Robin was touching on this
39:59
with the definition of pornography I don't know I want it to be a brilliant idea
40:05
and I want it to work but it just doesn't feel complete to me this morning
40:09
and it feels unduly timid as well what do you think? Carl's in Exeter
40:13
Carl, what would you like to say? First I'd like to say I am a boffin
40:17
I hate to say that. Good. I got my first degree in technology in 1987
40:23
I got my master's in 1991. And I got a PhD in the mid-90s in this
40:30
And I've worked in this industry all the way through. Perfect. I've also worked for government in multiple different places
40:36
helping advise on legislation and everything like this. Fantastic. So, my question is... Hey
40:42
You're here with the answers, Carl! Okay, my answer is it's impossible to define what social media is
40:50
Yes. If you look at anything that we use, so you look at Canva, Atcut, Figma, Miro, Scratch, Replete, GitHub, Google Docs, Microsoft, Fortnite, Roblox
41:03
I know that one. I know that one. Minecraft, Steam, Xbox, Discord, WhatsApp, Telegram, Messenger, Vinted, Depop, Etsy, Gumtree
41:12
Are you reading? Yeah, I actually wrote myself a list. Good, because you can stop now. I get the picture
41:18
Okay, okay. Every single one of those can be used as a social media application
41:23
Every single one of them can be used to share explicit pornography material
41:27
or material you do not want children to see. So if I'm buying something off you on Vinted
41:31
I have a line of communication to you that is open. I can send you a pornographic picture
41:36
So I can put a message on Vinted that says I have the following things
41:40
and then have a chat with you about that thing. in any way
41:45
There is nothing... Okay, so let's accept... I mean, but that doesn't, I don't think
41:51
undermine the whole ambition. Okay, I'm a 15-year-old, and I've heard from my friends
41:57
that if I go onto this Vinted item, I can have this chat. Maybe leave Vinted out of it now
42:02
because they're not going to be very happy about this, and I don't have the knowledge to... I can go onto eBay and have this chat
42:07
No, don't say any companies. Just say I can go on an online retailer
42:11
an e-tailer. A retailer that has any form of messaging between the purchaser and the supplier can be used in this way
42:21
Any tool like Google Docs or Microsoft, all the big tools can be used in this way
42:27
I use Slack every day in my business. Brilliant tool. Not going to think, but I can use that to talk to my children
42:36
My children are older. They're 13 and 32. but also I could have used it when they were 15
42:41
which means that anybody else could use it when they were 15. We've got multiple gaming platforms
42:46
They all use Roblox, Fortnite, Minecraft and everything like that. All of that can be used as social media
42:51
How do you frame legislation that says all of them must block children's access
42:57
Well he's not. I mean in his defence I think he may have pre-empted that objection
43:02
which many lay people would not have understood until you had just explained it so perfectly
43:06
because he's going after Apple and Google who must activate built-in features
43:12
to detect and block nude images on any device. So he's saying that a technology provider must do that
43:21
It's the landlords. He's going after the landlords rather than... And you've pointed out that there's lots and lots of different retailers
43:27
but he's going after the landlords, isn't he? OK, so let's just think about that then
43:32
Yes. If I use a Google phone... Yes. I can have many, many, many different versions of the Google application on that phone
43:40
I'm not restricted to any one of them. And... Yeah, but this is perfect as the enemy of the good, is it
43:46
You're being loopholes and circumventing? No. No, sorry. What I'm saying here is the legislation..
43:52
You sounded like a teacher then when you said no. You went, no. I haven't heard that tone of voice in a while
43:57
Carry on. Sorry, I'm not a teacher. I'm just a man who's done this
44:02
You are now, Carl. Go on, carry on. Okay, so if you take a Google application and the Google phone
44:08
there are many, many different versions of the application out there, and you can change it as much as you want
44:15
So my 15-year-old, if I had a 15-year-old, could go onto a version of the Google phone
44:23
download the Google phone app. I think it's called Android. And a version of Android that has been modified to allow them to do it
44:31
How can you make Google and Android responsible for somebody who has modified other features
44:37
I can do it on an iPhone as well. But you're a boffin. Yeah, but my 15-year-old, when he was 15, he's 30 now, could have done it at that time against anything else
44:46
And we had lots of conversations about it, about what you could do
44:51
It's not the fact that I'm a boffin that can do it. If one person can do it it can be put somewhere on the Internet that anybody else can do it It not that I know how to do it I could do it it the fact that I could publish it so that other people could use it
45:07
But, and then, well... And where does the legislation go then? Well, there isn't any legislation at the moment
45:13
and maybe we're working out why, is that he's going to ask these companies to do it themselves
45:18
and they'll be able to say, we have done it, and then wash their hands of the consequences that you're describing
45:22
And here's my quite possibly naive response. It would simply be that the problem you describe
45:30
and I have absolutely no reason to think that it's not real, so the problem you describe while real
45:35
would not be significant in the great scheme of things. It's a bit like you can't ban a 15-year-old from driving a car
45:42
But it's still against the law. When I say ban, you can ban them from driving a car
45:48
but you can't stop them until you've got sort of fingerprint recognition. and then I think, respectfully, you'd ring me and say that
45:55
oh, it's very easy to hack fingerprint recognition. And I'd say, well, that's not a reason not to have the ban in place
46:01
It's how do you frame the legislation? Publish. I looked at it and I looked at it, and since you started this thing
46:07
I went away and I started to read a whole load of stuff to go, well, how can I frame this legislation
46:13
And then I looked at it and said, well, what would be included in this legislation
46:17
I came up with such a massive list. I thought, well, the legislation will have to be..
46:21
But it's the device. It's the device, not the tenant. It's the landlord, not the tenant
46:25
And the loopholes you've described are obviously real, but, I mean, is this just the difference of opinion
46:31
on whether or not they would constitute a sort of undermining of the whole project
46:35
I just don't think they would. I think they would undermine the whole project, because the moment you say..
46:41
You do it at a hardware level, can't you? How? I don't know
46:46
You can't, you can't... Someone will be able to. So, hardware is just bits and bobs
46:52
Just bits and... Noughts and zeros. Jess Phillips said they had remedies in place
46:57
Jess Phillips said they had remedies in place. So she either doesn't... It's nonsense. That's a pretty strong word
47:03
I'm... OK. I'm quite happy to sit with Jess Phillips and say
47:07
show me the remedies that are in place and I will tell you why that's nonsense. I'm that confident that it's nonsense because..
47:13
Age verification works. age verification does work at a software level yeah
47:21
but not a hardware level no so hardware you can't hardware only works
47:29
on software I think you're talking I think you may be too much of a boffin
47:32
I don't know I know that sounds a little bit ungrateful given that you are
47:36
a bona fide boffin you ask I want boffin no I do
47:40
I just think your objections might be academic no I don't I don't have a view yet
47:45
I'm genuinely confused. I just, the objections, if I've understood the objections that you're making
47:50
I have two thoughts. Number one, they are precisely the objections that Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk would make
47:54
which makes me suspicious. Oh, good, glad I got that right. And number two, if these loopholes exist
48:02
then it doesn't, from where I'm sitting, constitute reasons not to implement it anyway
48:07
because some people who slip through the net do not demolish the efficacy of the net
48:13
why do we not put all our effort into teaching and working with children
48:20
into why this is a bad idea what's going on the same reason we don't let them buy alcohol legally
48:26
or buy cigarettes legally or drive cars legally because we can spend a month of Sundays
48:30
or a hundred million years trying to explain to them why they shouldn't do things but it is generally and historically
48:35
much more effective to simply not let them I can understand that
48:41
because it's true But also, not buying alcohol... So that's why. So that's why, and I like legislation
48:48
Not buying alcohol is an easy piece of legislation. If this has any alcohol content on it..
48:52
No, it isn't. I know a 15-year-old with a beard. He's got ID that is absolutely copper-bottomed
48:58
I mean, all of these loopholes do not make the law a bad idea
49:02
I didn't say the loophole made the law a bad idea. What I said was the law is easy to frame
49:11
Yeah. I don't know. Frame this law in a way that can be actually legislated
49:18
and I will go absolutely 100%. And that could be why he hasn't announced a law today
49:23
because he is aware of your reservations. But again, I come back to one of my reservations
49:29
is the fact that you sound almost as if you were lobbying for Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk
49:35
and you concede that point. And I don't know that I trust it. I suppose stopped clocks are right twice a day
49:40
but I don't trust the positions that would be adopted by the people who are making all of the benefits
49:45
and making all of the profits and exploiting all of our children and claiming, oh, well, there's nothing we can do about it, Gov
49:50
Hands in the air. I don't know. And that's why the subject is so interesting
49:54
But I suspect that you have raised a very valid point, which quite possibly explains the current continuing absence of legislation
50:02
which leaves us in the entirely unsatisfactory position of joining Keir Starmer
50:07
in crossing our fingers that this company voluntarily does the impossible thing
50:13
James O'Brien on LBC. It's four minutes after 11. It was a bit slow to start this conversation
50:20
so I'm going to continue it for a little bit longer. It's almost certainly the greatest social issue of our age, I think
50:27
And if it wasn't technology, if it was chemical, if we discovered, for example
50:32
that, you know, something that all our children have been eating was poisoning them or hypnotizing them
50:40
or robbing them of agency or doing things to their mental health that are hideous
50:45
then we would have no problem whatsoever with calling for legislation. And I don't know, would a loophole be
50:52
oh yeah, but you can find the recipe on the internet and you can still make your own
50:56
That's not an argument against stopping shops from selling them. I like an ogy a lot, you know I do
51:02
but sometimes they fall apart before I get to the end of them. And I thought this one might, but so far so good
51:07
So if they were selling something that we thought was harmless when they started selling it
51:11
I want to talk about Percy Pigs, but that wouldn't be fair on Marks and Spencers
51:15
So they're selling something lovely that we all thought was lovely and we all gave it to our children
51:21
And it wasn't around when we were kids, so we weren't, you know, completely clear on what it said on the box
51:26
or what the ingredients were, but everyone else was doing it and they all seemed very happy. So we all gave it to all of our children
51:31
and then a few years later, some people started saying, oh, I'm a bit worried about that
51:35
it seems to be turning all our children into zombies. You know, again, I use the word lightly
51:43
And everyone goes, oh, don't be ridiculous. And anyway, if you are turning into a zombie
51:47
then it's your fault or it's bad parenting. So, you know, you can't blame the..
51:51
I keep wanting to say Percy Piggs, but that wouldn't be fair on Marks and Spencers. You can't blame the..
51:56
Think of a name. You can't blame the Tootsweets. Nice little chitty-chitty bang-bang nod there for the fans
52:02
You can't blame the Tootsweets. Everyone likes Tootsweets. We've been giving our children Tootsweets since they were invented
52:09
We've not had any problems with Tootsweets. And then someone pops up and says, I think the Tootsweets are turning all our children into zombies
52:16
And you go, don't be ridiculous. And then you begin to notice that something is happening to our children
52:21
This sounds like a science fiction novel now, right? Or film. Something happening to the children in Salem Massachusetts Something happening to the children Something happening to our children There a million of them that haven got jobs or in education
52:35
They've just dropped out of society almost. Something's happening to our children
52:39
Their mental health problems are going through the roof. Something's happening to our children
52:45
What's the biggest thing that's changed in the course of our children's lifetimes compared to our lifetimes
52:51
Oh, I don't know. Is it sky sports? No, it's not. It's the tootsuites
52:58
But it's a tootsuite is something you can buy and bite. You can see it, you can feel it, you can touch it, it's tangible
53:07
It's fungible, if that's a word. It's a tootsuite. And then they say, well, we've got to stop people selling tootsuites
53:15
And no one would say, oh, you can... No one ever says, oh, there's no point banning tobacco
53:20
because you can grow your own. Thanks to climate change, you can probably grow it in Kidderminster
53:24
these days. Nobody banned, no one says, oh, the ban on cannabis
53:28
is pointless, because you can grow your... There's a million different reasons why the ban on cannabis
53:32
may not be the right thing to do, but the fact that you won't be able to get, you'll still
53:36
be able to get it if it's banned. In fact, drugs are the best argument of all against
53:40
this, aren't they? Oh, you'd still be able to, well, let's unban everything then. Because drug dealers still exist, we should legalise
53:46
all drugs. Because you can circumvent a technological ban upon something, we should legalise
53:52
all pornography. We should let children send nude images to each other from the age dot
53:57
Do you see what I mean? This ogy, is it working for you? It's working for me. I wish I'd thought of it at
54:02
10 o'clock. So you say we've got to ban the Tootsuites. And then Keir Starmer comes along
54:06
and says we're going to ask all the shops to stop selling Tootsuites. And if they don't
54:12
then they're going to be for the high jump. I cannot as yet specify how high
54:16
but it will be three months from now. Okay, talk about a reverse ferret
54:25
What if it works? What if all the companies go, oh, heaven's sake, let's just do what we can now
54:30
before we have to. Let's just get in front of it. It's good PR. And then I've got the problem of, of course
54:36
a change in government. If, for example, you had a prime minister who was secretly sponsored
54:40
by foreign-based billionaires, then obviously the interests of foreign-based billionaires are going to be prioritised over and above
54:46
you or your children. But let's jump off that bridge when we come to it. So you ban the people from selling the tootsuites
54:53
But because it's technology and you need a boffin to explain it
54:58
and some boffins will explain it from the same side of the argument
55:02
as the people who own the platforms and make all the money, you kind of feel unconfident in your own convictions
55:08
I don't know, can you ban the sale of tootsuites? Well, they'll get tootsuites on the black market
55:12
They'll still be getting tootsuites. I mean, if they really want to get tootsuites, they're going to get tootsuites
55:16
Yeah, so what? What you do with legislation is create an environment, a context of prohibition where something is not allowed
55:25
I don't know that you can ever 100% remove something from circulation if human beings are capable of generating it
55:31
either technologically, physically or even mentally. It's like thought crimes. But you create a context of prohibition
55:37
That is not allowed. and the hardware the phones, the tablets can be created
55:47
with that ban in place and then yeah, you might be able to go online
55:51
and find a loophole, you might be able to circumvent it using witchcraft, I mean sort of
55:57
geekery, boffin-ness but if the context is one of prohibition then the whole mood changes
56:04
the whole mood changes so cautiously 10 minutes after 11, maybe this will work
56:11
0345 6060 973. Mark's in Brighton. Mark, what do you reckon? Hey, James, how you doing
56:17
I'm all good. How are you? I'm good. Did you see the Trump interview with the woman, with the lady
56:23
No. I'll play it for you in a minute. I'm going to check it out. I'll play it for you in a minute
56:28
I overdosed on Trump. But let me say this to you. Go on. If I had to bet between a politician doing something
56:35
and a 15-year-old kid doing something, my money's on the kid. It's as simple as that. Kids will always find a way to circumvent stuff
56:46
And it's not just going to be a few of them. It's going to be a lot of them. What people don't realize is that social media at its root is a way for kids to communicate with
56:58
each other. That's why you had all those kids going all over those beaches during the last
57:04
break because they communicate with each other through social media now i will admit it is
57:10
frighteningly easy to access a foreign site any you got a you got a laptop in front of you uh no
57:18
i've got but i've got computers in front of me and i could type something into the search engine now
57:22
maybe not on a business computer but because the the the fire guard's in place but everybody knows
57:29
that you're telling the truth. Yeah, I mean, and the thing is
57:33
kids always find a way, and, you know, somebody just talked about drug dealers
57:38
Drug dealers exist because they always stay one step ahead of the law
57:42
Yeah, but nobody ever says we should legalize all drugs because drug dealers exist, Mark
57:47
This is my point. No, no, James, don't say that. Why? Because it's not true
57:51
I just did. There are plenty of people who say... Oh, God, well, you mean libertarians and what have you
57:56
No, there are some fairly prominent people in the States have been political candidates who've run on that
58:02
So we need to come at it from the other end of the telescope and remove the appetite from our children
58:07
by training them differently and raising them differently. Well, see, the first thing is lead by example
58:13
If your parents are accessing certain things through which a kid, by looking at their parent's screen
58:22
can access, then the parent has to start looking at their social media use differently
58:28
And I'm not talking about porn here. I'm just talking about consumption
58:33
And addiction. You're talking about addiction. Because it's all very well us saying
58:36
God, look at all our children turning into zombies because they're sucking on these tootsweets all the time
58:41
Says Dad, sucking on a tootsweet. Hey, wait a minute. James, James, you've got to answer me
58:45
What is a tootsweet? I've never heard of it. It's something like, well, it features in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang
58:50
It's a sweet that's also a whistle. Featuring that famous Cockney, Dick Van
58:55
but it is also my ogy for what we would be saying about these technologies
59:01
if they were tangible if you could pick them up and hand them to and you're absolutely right
59:05
and it actually still works this ogy with your contribution because you're talking about addiction
59:10
and all the adults are going oh look at these kids they're all so addicted while sucking on a tootsuite
59:15
or while accessing their own social media or while using it to access unpleasant images
59:21
or to communicate with their friends and their family So it's a bizarre conversation about addiction being conducted by addicts about younger addicts. Exactly
59:33
And the thing is, I mean, when I was a kid, when I was a very young kid, which was back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, my watchword was rules are meant for me to break
59:44
Yes. And I would always try and find a way to circumvent virtually any rule I didn't like
59:51
And believe me, there are millions of kids all over this planet
59:54
that look at things the same way I used to when I was a kid. I know, and I used to be..
59:59
that view and i don't know what's happened to me since but just because someone old james you got
1:00:05
because i've i haven't i'm not where you are now i i i don't look at things and think because they
1:00:11
can be circumvented they are pointless oh no i'm not saying anything's pointless i'm just saying
1:00:17
there are people out here who will find pointless or not a way to get around something but that's
1:00:23
not a reason not to do it it's a bit like saying there's no point building walls because someone
1:00:27
or climb over it. But see, here's the thing. God, my ogies are dropping now
1:00:31
This is fantastic. Carry on. Eventually, things end up changing. Give you an example
1:00:37
In America, marijuana was conceived as a demon drug in the 1930s
1:00:45
They banned it all over the country, and there were a lot of racial reasons. Reefer madness. Reefer madness
1:00:50
Have you ever seen that movie? I have seen that movie, actually, yes. It's bonkers
1:00:55
Yeah. And part of the reason, although they didn't say it, there's a guy named Anslinger, but that's a long story
1:01:01
The bottom line was they were afraid what marijuana would do to black people
1:01:06
That's why they banned it. And see, the thing about that is eventually that changed to the point that you could walk in
1:01:16
My daughter went to school in Colorado. You walk into a marijuana store in Colorado
1:01:23
they have it laid out like a supermarket. And Colorado hasn't, you know, died
1:01:29
As a matter of fact, they make a boatload of money. The law changed. The law changed. The access didn't
1:01:34
And I'm probably more concerned about social media usage than I am about marijuana usage
1:01:42
So your parallels work up to a point. but the addiction argument
1:01:48
and the negativity the negative impact on life I think demands you can't just sit and wait for society to recognise and change
1:01:55
it needs to be led by laws also, just on a philosophical level
1:01:59
Mark, so I always enjoy talking to you when you were a young rebel
1:02:03
back in the day and like I see you as a young James Dean being asked
1:02:09
what are you rebelling against and you'd go, what have you got
1:02:13
What if there hadn't been any rules? Well, then what would you have done with yourself all day
1:02:18
If there hadn't been any rules to rebel against, if there hadn't been any walls to climb
1:02:21
what would you have done all day? Enjoy myself. Ah, well, I guess you thought you were at the time
1:02:27
I've got to go. I've got to go to the break. We'll talk soon. And I'll play that clip before the end of this hour
1:02:32
It's exactly... And how many times have I sat here and said to you
1:02:35
it's not hard. I do understand the perceived necessity of maintaining access to public figures, all right
1:02:42
Well, let me say that. Let me rephrase that. I do understand the perceived necessity of maintaining access to deranged liars in positions of power, whether they're leading political parties or entire countries
1:02:55
Some journalists, most journalists, almost all journalists cannot afford to say, oh, well, I don't suppose I'm ever going to get another interview with them again
1:03:03
That's not true, actually. Organisations can't afford to say that. Lots of journalists can, because, of course, it's only a tiny number of journalists that will be invited into the White House
1:03:12
or a tiny number of journalists that will be invited to tickle Nigel Farage's tummy
1:03:17
if you want to talk about the pound shop version that we have on this side of the Atlantic. And how many times do I say to you
1:03:22
there's only two things you have to do? You insist on evidence for their claims
1:03:27
and you remind them of their own words. It's not some master class
1:03:33
in how to de-bag fascists. You simply ask them for the evidence
1:03:38
of what they're claiming. Could you show me one recorded case of a Haitian eating a cat, please, Mr. President
1:03:45
You ask them for the evidence of what they're... Could you show me the report you got back from your advisors
1:03:50
claiming that your phone had been hacked by Russian spies, Mr. Farage
1:03:54
You ask for evidence and or you remind them of their own words
1:04:00
which will hideously contradict what they're saying today. That's all you have to do
1:04:06
And an American journalist did it rather splendidly this weekend and got precisely the response you will always get if you do it properly
1:04:15
And I'll play that before the end of the hour. It's 11.18. James O'Brien on LBC
1:04:20
20 minutes after 11. I hate it when I can't remember people's names. The journalist I was talking about a moment ago is called Kristen Welker
1:04:27
and she works for NBC, and she provided anybody who has sat down with Donald Trump
1:04:33
to conduct an interview in recent years with a shaming masterclass in how to do it
1:04:38
politely, effectively, honestly. If you haven't seen it or heard it, I will share it with you shortly
1:04:45
But before all of that, we continue our conversation. This has been a weird morning, right
1:04:49
Half past ten, I was thinking, you called this one wrong, O'Brien. But of course, if I think I've..
1:04:54
You know how my brain works, right? If things aren't going well on a phone end
1:04:58
I blame myself. Now, before I had therapy, I would have blamed Keith
1:05:03
or Martha, who's producing the programme today. I said, why do you... I sit here and I think you're doing it wrong
1:05:07
If you find this, are you interested in this? Are you interested in a little insight into how the show works on a day like today
1:05:15
So I'm thinking, this is really interesting. I trust my, I think this is really interesting
1:05:22
You get to sort of 20 past 10 and you're not agreeing. And I'm thinking, well, I'm not explaining properly why I find it so interesting
1:05:29
I am failing to explain to you why you should be interested in this
1:05:35
So I'll try again. It's a funny one, that. It doesn't always work, of course, but usually
1:05:40
And here we are now. We could carry on till Sheila gets here with quality contributions to a conversation about
1:05:46
whether or not it's feasible for tech companies to do what Keir Starmer is asking them to do
1:05:54
Question number two, why is he asking them, not telling them? And question number three, which Mark just raised
1:06:01
are we actually indulging in what the philosopher Freddie Ayer would have called, I think, a category error
1:06:06
Are we having entirely the wrong conversation? Imagine if we were having a phone-in about cannabis
1:06:11
and all of my callers were ringing in to offer their views
1:06:16
on protecting children from cannabis while smoking a joint. I think that's what we're doing, isn't it
1:06:29
Oh, well, I never let my children in. Oh, man, that's good stuff
1:06:35
I never let my children anywhere near cannabis, James. I didn't let them buy any until they were 16
1:06:40
I protected my children. Oh, man, that's good stuff. You've got to try some of this, Keith
1:06:43
This is fantastic. And then I'll take another call, and it'll be like, well, I think it's absolutely outrageous that..
1:06:49
Excuse me a second. I'm just going to do a bong. Anyway, where was I
1:06:57
I just... Oh, yeah. Hang on. Oh, no. Short term memory. Short term..
1:07:01
Oh, yeah. Kids should not be allowed anywhere near cannabis. That you've got no idea how dangerous it is
1:07:07
It's absolutely... And then I take another call and it will be, well, I have been sm... I, I, I..
1:07:11
Do you see? We're having a conversation about addicts. And we're all addicts
1:07:17
How on earth do you wriggle your way out of that? I have no idea
1:07:21
I'm just pointing it out because I've spotted it and I don think I should have to deal with it on my own Linton in Cardiff Linton what would you like to say Oh hi James Hang on Linton I just going to do another bong Carry on
1:07:35
The original question, the original question... Yes, you're quite right. Steer us back to the original question, quick
1:07:42
I love it when you go up on these tangents. It's not helpful sometimes
1:07:48
The feasibility is heartbreakingly straightforward. Simple. It is so feasible. Did you know, in 1996
1:08:02
standard consumer equipment made it impossible to scan banknotes? Obvious reasons. Yes
1:08:09
You don't want some home GPS. Some photocopiers. Yes. Yes. So the idea of identifying problematic images
1:08:16
that's already been solved, straightforward. So, solution number one. when the device detects a suspicious image either being sent by another device or being received
1:08:31
because it's one thing to say well there are workarounds somebody will always find a way to
1:08:36
send them yes if a device using an account that is registered to a child or someone of a young age
1:08:44
detects that it may be receiving an image it deems suspicious a check is engaged a biometric
1:08:56
a biometric check a biometric id check the sort that you would have if you're buying i don't know
1:09:01
something using apple pay or android pay so detection of suspicious images tick in that box
1:09:10
the device detects a suspicious image being sent to one of the apps on the device
1:09:17
triggers a biometric ID check if that app is being used by a user who is of a young age
1:09:28
Now, of course, there are workarounds. Of course, there are flaws. Of course, people will... But that's not a reason not to do anything. It's never a reason not to do anything
1:09:35
So the detection, and I am simplifying, obviously. This is wildly complex
1:09:40
You're talking to a simpleton, so it's just as well. But these problems have been solved many times over by many clever people
1:09:50
Detect the suspicious image, trigger the biometric ID check. The biometric ID check would naturally need to rely on the account having been set up by someone who didn't put a bogus date of birth in
1:10:04
and release it and see who figures out a workaround. And then, as so many people will be oh so eager to point out
1:10:15
well, kids are fiendish, they will find a way around it. Well, great. Boffins are fiendish too
1:10:20
Geeks were kids. My first band was called the Fiendish Boffins. And I assure you they don't like to be beaten by people
1:10:26
who figured out workarounds to their solution. And what you don't have in place here is that
1:10:31
I always think of tax lawyers at this point, is that it's not as if there are going to be greater rewards
1:10:37
for the best boffins to go to work for the kids as opposed to working for the tech companies
1:10:42
or indeed the government on providing the safeguards that are necessary to protect our children
1:10:48
So it's eminently doable. I think I know the answer to the next question. Why haven't they already done it then
1:10:54
The disincentives, I suppose, the claims that, oh, it's also difficult, and the what about and there are worker apps
1:11:06
Very clever people explaining to people who are not informed enough or not wise in that same domain can easily convince them
1:11:16
You can blind people with science and that means... And the companies want to do that
1:11:22
They want to blind people with science because, I mean, at the very least, it would be a big faff to do what you're describing
1:11:27
or at least a faff, maybe not even that big a faff, but it would reduce the amount of time that children spend online
1:11:32
and that would be like a turkey voting for Christmas. Yes. And honestly, James, not that much of a faff
1:11:40
I mean, I design software for a living, I build software for a living, but I sketched that system idea out
1:11:47
on the back of an envelope, literally. These people have buildings full of people
1:11:51
who can put this together in an afternoon. So children on these devices
1:11:56
will not be able to send and receive explicit images. And yes, what was that phrase you used
1:12:01
that I should have used earlier? The walk-arounds will exist, just as they do with pretty much everything
1:12:05
but they will not be significant enough to render the entire project futile or pointless
1:12:11
No. And when exploits are discovered, the boffins will tighten things up, as they always do
1:12:21
It's been the same with music piracy, video piracy. It will be the same with countless other things
1:12:28
and governments with any kind of desire to see this work will encourage
1:12:35
Well, encourage not enforce, because I was going to nudge you to that next
1:12:39
and why you think Keir Starmer is asking nicely rather than laying down the law
1:12:44
given that, as Jess Phillips has repeatedly explained, the necessity, the need for it has been clear for ages
1:12:50
and the means have been in place for a while as well. I would suppose
1:12:58
really obviously just a guess but I would suppose he may be approaching them
1:13:02
with the idea of we can do this the easy way and I'm going to be nice
1:13:09
and ask you and invite you I'm going to be nice and invite you to arrive at a solution
1:13:13
which we would like implemented we have our ideas because surely there is someone
1:13:19
with a technology someone with an idea of how this would work and how feasible it is
1:13:27
because there must be, there simply must be somebody within government close to Keir Starmer who's able to say
1:13:35
look, if the tech companies did it this way, implemented this at a combination of the device level
1:13:44
just like Apple Pay, just like biometric checks, just like so many things, for banking, for instance
1:13:50
if this was implemented at the device level and the social media companies
1:13:56
just helped get it the last few yards over the line by doing their bit
1:14:02
then we can implement a much safer social media technology with minimal, what's the word
1:14:10
With a minimally invasive set of, with a minimally invasive scheme easy for the tech companies
1:14:20
easy for the manufacturers, easy all round, let's propose the easy option
1:14:24
because the harder option, the hard way is, you know, So oddly then
1:14:31
timidity would have been the wrong word perhaps to describe Keir Starmer
1:14:35
and what he's doing is, he's negotiating like a lawyer does. He's in the judges chambers
1:14:41
saying, well, we don't need to do this and we don't need to do that but if you don't comply
1:14:45
then we'll see you back in court in three months time. It's almost like he's had training in this sort of thing
1:14:51
Ah now you done it So what that Half past 11 and not quite a 180 degree U but beginning to think that the speech this morning was nowhere near as ineffective or as timid as I genuinely believed at 10 o Thank you Linton that absolutely
1:15:06
brilliant. In fact, you bang on the news as well, so you get spared the question about whether or
1:15:11
not we are all addicts, sitting here stroking our beards and contemplating ways of stopping
1:15:17
children being addicts without acknowledging for a moment the fact that we all are. that might be my favourite theme
1:15:22
to emerge from the conversation this morning what the hell we're going to do with it, goodness only knows
1:15:27
but my goodness you can't deny it, can you? here's Dominic Ellis with your headlines
1:15:31
James O'Brien on LBC it is 26 minutes to 12 and it is
1:15:37
it's a fascinating, I nearly said thing because I like alliteration so much
1:15:42
it's a fascinating thing but it's not, I don't think a phone-in and I know sometimes I think I've stumbled
1:15:48
across something fascinating and you're sitting And they're going, oh, well done, Sherlock. I've been talking about this for years
1:15:54
But we are bonkers when it comes to these social media conversations
1:15:58
I think this might even be why they haven't landed quite as heavily as I expect them to
1:16:03
when we dedicate an hour of our time to them together. Of a morning, having a conversation about addiction
1:16:09
Addiction is the word that we should be looking at. That's not what Keir Starmer has addressed today
1:16:14
Keir Starmer has addressed the inarguably unpleasant practice of young people either sending or receiving pornographic images or nude images
1:16:26
The law is an ass in this space. It's almost impossible to track the attempts of legislation to keep up with changing behavior
1:16:36
because you will be a criminal if you send a picture of yourself to somebody who is your age, if you're both under 16
1:16:44
You are sharing images of child sexual abuse, technically, and that law could not be different
1:16:52
I don't think it could be better. It has to be like that. It would be a more serious matter if somebody above that age
1:17:03
and of course the more above that age they were, was to engage in the same behaviour
1:17:07
But you can't give a dispensation to the underage people when it comes to the simple technicality of the crime
1:17:14
So he's addressing that, but he's not really, at this point, talking about addiction
1:17:20
which is why when it was announced at the weekend and, you know, a month ago and a year ago
1:17:25
as Jess Phillips repeatedly reminds us, that Keir Starmer was going to ban social media for children
1:17:31
It's the addictive element. It's the addictive element that we should be most concerned about
1:17:38
And yet that's not where he's gone today. That, I think, is why the story didn't quite do what we expected it to do
1:17:47
He's not made an announcement today about social media. Quite the opposite, in fact
1:17:51
He's made an announcement about hardware and the companies that provide it
1:17:56
Companies like Apple and Google must activate built-in features to detect and block nude images
1:18:01
There's nothing about the algorithms. There's nothing about the way in which we, not just our children
1:18:07
but we are all gamed to spend as much time on there as humanly possible
1:18:12
I don't know if you've started watching the new Russell T Davies program
1:18:15
on Channel 4, Tiptoe, with David Morrissey and Alan Cumming, but my goodness me, it's right on the money, as you'd expect from Russell
1:18:24
But it is so, so zeitgeisty, so completely on the nose for this stuff
1:18:30
And it's what David Morrissey spends his time online looking at that is perhaps most interesting
1:18:36
and the nature of his addiction to the stuff that he spends online looking at
1:18:42
And so the bit that I can't quite turn into a phone-in yet is this fascinating bit about social media addiction
1:18:49
not about what Keir Starmer is talking about today, that we all sit here
1:18:54
we all sit here having a conversation about young addicts without ever acknowledging that we are all addicts ourselves
1:19:04
I don't think I'm an addict, but very few addicts think they are addicts. I can take it or leave it
1:19:09
I did cut Twitter off completely, almost overnight. So, I mean, I suppose that would be called going cold turkey
1:19:15
Don't get much FOMO, but I like my blue sky. I'll have a look at that
1:19:19
And I'm not big on YouTube or other things, but I have my phone in my hand
1:19:24
far more than would be healthy if it was a book. Even sometimes I kid myself I'm doing word games
1:19:29
I'm playing crosswords, but I'm hopping around on there, checking this, checking that, checking emails
1:19:34
the original social media, I suppose. And we're all addicts. And I'm not bad, but you might be
1:19:41
How much time do you spend doom scrolling? How much time once you go to look at something on YouTube
1:19:45
and it makes suggestions about something else you might like to watch, how many hours of your day have gone in nothing
1:19:50
Oh, we're having a conversation about how Tootsweets are turning our children into zombies while we are living on Tootsweets
1:19:56
We're getting through 10, 20 a day. I don't know. I don't know what the question would be there
1:20:02
how do you shift the conversation away from children onto the rest of us
1:20:06
but that's not what we're having today 11.38 is the time the conversation we're having today is about
1:20:14
really what Keir Starmer has done and much to my own surprise
1:20:20
I think he might actually have been a lot more impressive than he sounded
1:20:24
which is a curse isn't it for a politician to sound pathetic
1:20:28
and upon closer examination to be doing something actually quite sensible and impressive
1:20:36
Is that where we are now? 03456060973. Matt's in Waltham Forest. This is your manor, Matt
1:20:44
Hello. Yes, morning. I guess you will remember from previous conversations that I worked on the Online Safety Act for a number of years
1:20:53
and I have a theory that kind of aligns with your previous caller, actually
1:21:01
I think Keir Starman is trying to control kind of the narrative a little bit
1:21:06
He doesn't want to be... Every time there's anything to do with this stuff
1:21:10
it's always an attack on free speech, isn't it? So, you know, you get, we want to move in this direction
1:21:17
and then everyone sort of piles in and says, oh, you're trying to restrict our freedoms
1:21:21
you're trying to remove this and remove that and all the rest of it. Not everyone, but very, very prominent idiots
1:21:26
Precisely, right? Unfortunately, we live in an era of very, very prominent idiots
1:21:32
Quite. So I think what he's doing here is he's going, look, you've got three months
1:21:37
Yeah. Okay? We know that you can do this stuff yourself. You know, anyone that's got any kind of, you know
1:21:45
knowledge of this knows that they can put safeguards in place, but that they don't
1:21:49
When I worked on the online safety bill, We went after digital paid for advertising, user-generated content
1:21:55
And about two months after we sort of pushed that part of the campaign
1:22:00
Facebook, Google, all of us came out and said, we're going to do it voluntarily
1:22:04
Right. We're going to create a little group amongst ourselves and we will monitor this stuff voluntarily
1:22:11
And we said, no, no, not good enough. You've had years. And we pursued it through until it actually made it into the act
1:22:17
because no one believed them. Right. and essentially I think this is
1:22:23
kind of a softer way of doing that it I giving you the time to do it and if you don do it then we will do something ourselves and I think that exactly the point that your previous caller made I just think it more about making that clear in the public domain if you like News management Yeah 100 Which is a good
1:22:41
I mean if it works it was the right decision and if it doesn't work it was not. Yeah he gets well
1:22:46
he just gets to show them as the bad guys he gets to position them as look we tried to work with you
1:22:52
in a sensible collegiate almost manner. You haven't worked with us, so now we're going to enforce a law on you that makes you do it
1:23:03
because that's how important this is. And yet there was nothing in today's speech, technically
1:23:08
about social media. I know that would be the means by which a lot of these images are shared
1:23:13
but that was not what he was addressing. I mean, it couldn't have been further away from a social media ban
1:23:18
despite all the headlines and presumably the briefing telling us that that is what was going to happen
1:23:24
Now, and again, I think you had a previous caller who sort of rattled off that list of, you know
1:23:30
various different platforms and stuff. And he's right, all of that social media
1:23:34
WhatsApp is social media. Any sort of, any app that you can communicate on
1:23:39
is essentially social media. It's almost an unhelpful phrase then in the conversations we have about social media
1:23:46
We shouldn't be using the phrase social media. Well, one of the reasons why I'm still so keen
1:23:50
on the idea of actually a social media ban up to the age of 16 because, you know
1:23:54
I have a 13-year-old son. He just started using WhatsApp. I'm not wild about it
1:23:58
He's a sensible kid, but you know, I'm not that keen on
1:24:02
him having WhatsApp. But then at the same time, I don't know, he can message his friends
1:24:08
on his phone anyway and send pictures on that anyway. By the way
1:24:12
you mentioned about kids sending each other pictures themselves. I actually think
1:24:18
and I'm prepared to be wrong about this, but I think it's actually 18
1:24:23
Oh, the age under which you can... Yeah. Maybe you're right, but yes, I should have..
1:24:29
I'll double-check that, but the point stands, doesn't it? You will be criminalising somehow yourself
1:24:33
by sending a picture of yourself to someone who is the same age as you
1:24:37
and there's no real better way of doing it because, of course, the law is generally the least bad option
1:24:44
that's open to people. So, yeah, so a cautious welcome from Matt, who worked on the Online Safety Act
1:24:49
and perhaps a deeper understanding of why Keir Starmer has chosen the course that he's chosen
1:24:54
And again, some typical traits, if you like, of his premiership. Poor communication
1:24:59
Everybody was expecting something completely different from what they got. I don't know why that happened or how that happened
1:25:04
And some of the fault may lie with the journalists who put two and two together and came up with four and a half
1:25:08
but it's not good. Everybody turns up expecting an announcement that there's going to be a ban on social media
1:25:13
and ministers are touring the studio in the morning saying, no, no, no, no, no, there's not going to be a ban on social media at all
1:25:17
And then there wasn't a ban on social media. There was something completely different. And something that takes a big bite out of one of the problems of children's activity online
1:25:27
but doesn't address the fundamental problem, which is the addictive nature of it. But perhaps, and that's what I mean by the typical traits, he sounded very underwhelming
1:25:35
but perhaps he was saying something that we should have been a little bit more generous towards. And that's where, actually Matt, before you go, that's where we come to
1:25:41
and I know you've addressed this partly, but the naivety and or the wisdom
1:25:48
of expecting these companies to do the right thing voluntarily. Is that, I mean, that..
1:25:54
I don't think he expects them to do it voluntarily. I think it's just about positioning
1:26:00
I really do. I think you're giving them the opportunity. They'll say some, most of them will probably say some nice words around it
1:26:07
And again, it goes back to what your previous caller said about
1:26:11
oh yeah, but it's quite technically difficult and three months really isn't long enough
1:26:15
for us to put those safeguards in place and they'll come out with a whole load of excuses around that
1:26:21
where we know, like you said, they could do it in an afternoon. Yeah, well, that's, yeah, exactly that
1:26:25
Thank you. Great stuff. Thank you, Matt. Ring me on another subject one day, you're allowed
1:26:29
It's 11.45. James O'Brien on LBC. It's 11.48 and it is a theme to which I have a horrible feeling
1:26:37
I'm going to be returning for the rest of my life, But how do you interview deranged or not deranged liars, particularly when they sit in positions of power
1:26:47
And the answers are myriad, but one of the crucial things you have to do
1:26:51
For example, when Nick Robinson was interviewing Nigel Farage recently, and Nigel Farage said
1:26:55
the reason my immigration figures have come down is because so many people are leaving the country
1:26:59
He was lying. And the journalist, the interviewer, failed to pick him up on it
1:27:03
That is disastrous because whatever you think about individuals or issues, you can't have a worthwhile or an informed opinion if you're misinformed
1:27:13
So how do you deal with liars? How do you deal with politicians whose entire platform is fake
1:27:22
In Donald Trump's case, it would involve lies about the election that he lost under exactly the same system
1:27:27
conducted under exactly the same system as the two presidential elections that he won
1:27:31
It's an obvious lie. But he's quite hard to pin down, apparently
1:27:35
And I only say that because I've seen many, many people fail to pin him down
1:27:41
which is why it was so gratifying to see Kristen Welker of..
1:27:45
I mean, it's simultaneously gratifying and uniquely depressing, this clip. Because, like all decent interviewers, I think she shows how easy it is
1:27:57
I hope she wouldn't mind me saying that. I hope she wouldn't mind me saying that
1:28:01
because she's brilliant and it takes real courage in America to do what you're about to hear now
1:28:05
because Donald Trump's billionaire backers are buying up and castrating almost all of the media
1:28:11
you will be fired even from a late night comedy show if the president doesn't like you
1:28:15
that's the great champions of free speech they're shutting down comedy let alone journalism
1:28:21
there's a resignation as we learned last week from 60 Minutes that has seen
1:28:24
allegations that journalists were being ordered to insert bias into their reports
1:28:29
because CBS has been bought by Trump supporters and is being run by a Trump supporter
1:28:35
It's insane. And they're the people that are constantly whining about their freedom of speech being compromised
1:28:40
while they are literally shutting people down, getting people cancelled and metaphorically burning books in the town square
1:28:47
So it takes proper guts to do this. But as Claire Burton in Ireland
1:28:51
has shown English journalists with Farage, it's not that hard. You just need, I think, to focus on two things
1:28:59
Demands for evidence. You say, why are you interrupting me? Let me speak. And you say, listen, speak all you want
1:29:04
when you answer the question that I'm asking you. I want the evidence of what you're claiming
1:29:08
I want the proof of what you're alleging. I want to see the receipts
1:29:13
And the other thing you do, which I don't think pops up in this clip
1:29:17
is you remind them of their own words. Because if you're a liar in politics, you're a hypocrite
1:29:24
By definition, you would have said yesterday the polar opposite of what you're saying today
1:29:28
because you blow in the wind. So when Sarah Everard is murdered
1:29:32
Nigel Farage says, oh, don't blame it on anyone except the police. Don't blame men for it
1:29:36
and don't take it out on the police. When Henry Novak is murdered, every immigrant in history is somehow on the hook
1:29:42
for that crime, despite the fact that the person who committed the murder was not and is not an immigrant
1:29:47
Elon Musk is, and yet he goes on social media to blame it all on immigrants or immigration
1:29:52
It's bonkers. So you just need to calmly, and sometimes it's quite fun to do it uncalmly, point it out
1:30:00
the evidence just say show me the money or rather the proof or the receipts and donald trump who i
1:30:07
think is falling apart at the seams even even more than previously at the moment can't cope
1:30:13
and this is shameful for for other journalists who've interviewed him a demonstration of how i don't want to keep saying easy because if it was well i don't know why others
1:30:25
don't do what what kristen welker does here but it's worth two minutes of your time
1:30:30
the election was rigged it was a dirty election and it's happening again right now in california
1:30:36
it's happening right now in california right now it's looking look at what's happening in california
1:30:43
it's four days doing well in california it's no they're not they're dropping fast because it's a
1:30:50
rigged election let me tell you it's four days and they aren't even close to coming up that's how
1:30:55
they know why they're doing that because they're cheating on the election there's what do you have
1:30:59
evidence to support all i have to do is look all i have to do is that's not and i listen and i
1:31:05
listen to people and let's see what happens but sir that's not evidence you think it's appropriate
1:31:09
that's how they get the votes you think it's appropriate that they have an election and five
1:31:14
days later they're nowhere close to picking local officials acknowledge they are slow they're
1:31:19
urging the votes to be counted quickly. That's how they vote in California
1:31:24
Just like you're crooked. Your press is crooked. And meet the press is crooked. To be fair, I'm not crooked. But let's continue
1:31:29
Really? Well, you play right into their hands. Let's continue. You're either crooked or you're stupid. You play right into their hands with this rap
1:31:36
You know that these elections are rigged. Your network knows that they're rigged
1:31:42
You know that I won an election in a landslide and I got 94 percent bad press
1:31:48
You know why I got that? Because you have no credibility. But you've never presented evidence that it was rigged
1:31:54
Let's keep talking about it. I want to talk about Todd. You have more evidence. There's more evidence than ever presented
1:32:00
Let's talk about elections in this country. We're like a third world country
1:32:04
Your elections are crooked and you're crooked and meet the press is crooked
1:32:08
And so is ABC and CBS and CNN. But Mr. President. Your one sided crooked networks
1:32:15
All right. Let's call it quits because I've had enough. Thank you, darling. Mr. President, please, I travelled all the way to Wisconsin
1:32:22
I've sat in the rain with you. I know, I've sat in the rain with you for an hour
1:32:26
On and off in the rain, and I've given you enough time. You ought to straighten out your press, because you know what
1:32:32
A country can never be great with a dishonest press. Listen, we travelled all the way to Wisconsin
1:32:38
And that's it. Off he goes, off he runs, off he trots. And he touches her on the way out
1:32:44
I think that's significant. and he calls her darling and he touches her because you've got the racism
1:32:49
you've got the climate change denial, you're always going to have the misogyny. They go hand in hand
1:32:53
And that's it. So I've got lots of evidence. Could we see some, please
1:32:58
Could we maybe see some, please? Maybe just one tiny, just one little waffer thin piece of evidence
1:33:07
No, nothing. He's got nothing. He just talks louder, he talks more quickly
1:33:11
he talks over her. He starts slagging off all other journalistic outlets
1:33:15
including CBS, which is owned by David Ellison now, isn't it, after the deal went through
1:33:21
Strong political and business alliances with Donald Trump and the Republican Party
1:33:26
filleting 60 minutes because it still employs people who aren't sycophantic or craven towards the regime
1:33:33
And that's what happens. That's all you have to do. And she didn't raise her voice
1:33:37
and she didn't behave anything other than professionally and calmly. Kristen Welker is her name
1:33:43
write it down because there'll be a target on her back now from some quarters of the regime and
1:33:49
beyond a metaphorical target i hope um but that's how you do it that's how you do it he i mean lying
1:33:56
about the election there's so many pivotal points where something very precious got lost but lying
1:34:02
about the election and subsequently of course pardoning the people who um acted violently upon
1:34:07
his lies about the election the january the six people extraordinary numbers of whom have gone on
1:34:11
to be convicted of other crimes since they got pardoned for the crimes they committed that day
1:34:17
You're either for it or against it. That kind of behaviour. There shouldn't really be any get-out
1:34:23
or any compromise or any middle ground. You're either for it or you're against it
1:34:27
And if you're for it because it upsets all the right people, that's fine. At least you're for it
1:34:31
You like the lies. You like the liar. You like the abuser in that case
1:34:36
He abused that woman verbally and he had to touch her on the way out
1:34:40
and call her darling. 11.56 is the time. Back to the question we've been concerning ourselves with
1:34:49
for the last couple of hours, somewhat surprisingly. And it is Keir Starmer's determination to force
1:34:56
or at least to persuade companies like Apple and Google to activate built-in features
1:35:01
that will detect and block nude images for children on both new and existing smartphones and tablets
1:35:08
Alex is in Seon. Sion in Switzerland. Alex, what would you like to say? Sorry to keep you
1:35:13
Hello, James. Hello, Alex. Can you hear me? Loud and clear. Perfect. Well, thank you for putting me after the orange tangerine guy
1:35:22
I apologize. But we will handle that. All right. So I wanted to talk a little bit about age verification
1:35:29
Yes. And the way it's done in France, because I think it's an interesting example
1:35:35
So what France did is they built the whole system saying basically if you want to serve up, for example
1:35:42
pornographic sites, you must implement an age verification. But they don't just say do it. They say you will do it like this. Okay
1:35:50
And what they have is a kind of a government server portal where people have to inscribe themselves
1:35:57
so the government know who they are and their age. And it's a double secret system
1:36:01
So if you go to a website, they will give you a code. You type in the code in your verification portal
1:36:09
They give you another code and you paste it in where you came from
1:36:13
That way, the site doesn't know who you are and the government don't know what you're trying to access
1:36:20
So it's anonymous. You don't have the problem with upload your ID
1:36:24
You don't have to give your identity to these companies. Because I'm going to say the social media companies, I see them as malignant actors
1:36:31
Which means they have to be treated as if they're always going to do the wrong thing
1:36:36
until they're somehow forced to do the right thing. Yeah. If you let them do it, if you say, just do this
1:36:41
they will figure out the worst possible way to do it for us and the best way for them
1:36:45
And the cheapest. And the cheapest. And the one that doesn't really work
1:36:49
And is it widely regarded to be working in France? I know Pornhub left the country entirely, didn't it, after that age verification was brought in. Yeah
1:36:59
I mean, I would say good riddance, don't let the door hit you on the back. Well, other people might
1:37:05
You know, I mean, but I take your point. It's a test not of our attitudes to pornography
1:37:10
It's a test of the age verification processes. Right, exactly. Are you serious about this
1:37:14
Do you want to protect minors if you don't want to get out? It's a bit nuts, really, that we sit here and say
1:37:18
oh, I wonder if they're capable of doing it. When you think of all the things that humans are capable of doing
1:37:22
in the last hundred years you know the po We could do almost anything we put a man on the moon but we can stop a 15 year old sending a naked picture of himself to somebody who either does or doesn want to see it or a naked picture
1:37:35
Of course we can do it. Of course they can do it. Of course they can
1:37:40
We're all a bit gaslit here, aren't we, when you think about it? They have to be forced. They absolutely have to be forced. They're not going to do it. They're going to, you know, fiddle around
1:37:49
They're going to do the worst thing. They're going to do the thing that doesn't really work because they want the teenagers on there
1:37:53
I mean, I think France is working on maybe putting VPNs behind the same restrictions
1:37:58
so that you have to be 18 to get a VPN. And that way, I mean, if you get a VPN and you're 18, fine
1:38:04
And then you might get rogue VPN suppliers or providers, but you don't, again, you don't ban walls
1:38:10
because people can climb over them. Thank you, Alex, and thank you for your patience as well
1:38:14
It's just gone 12 noon. I think I've got a caller waiting who works for Wired
1:38:19
which, given that we've just been singing the praises of quality journalism, I may try and squeeze in to the next hour, but we are otherwise moving on from that subject and into somewhat trickier territory
1:38:31
Extraordinary footage on the BBC at the moment of an enormous bomb
1:38:35
I presume that's the correct word. It almost looks like Second World War ordinance just sitting in the sand, poking a massive great thing, about, I'd say, 15 foot high, and a bloke just sitting next to it
1:38:46
It obviously hasn't gone off, but it's landed nose first in the sand. but Israel, Iran and the United States of America
1:38:54
It's not what next, it's what now. James O'Brien on LBC. It's four minutes after 12 and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:39:04
That clip should sort of echo through your memory bank, shouldn't it
1:39:07
The clip of Donald Trump just sort of storming out of an interview with Kristen Welker
1:39:14
because she had the audacity to ask him for some tiny amount
1:39:18
or just the slightest scintilla of evidence regarding his claims about election rigging
1:39:24
his completely false claims, his lies, his blatant lies. I mean, Fox News ended up on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars
1:39:30
for repeating some of the lies with regards to voting machines. It's extraordinary how the world turns
1:39:37
but by sheer sort of force of depravity, Donald Trump can rewrite history in his own head
1:39:44
And what you heard in that clip was an example of what happens when reality manages to break through
1:39:50
And the answer is meltdown, absolute meltdown. I think that's helpful when we turn our attention to the Middle East
1:39:57
because you cannot leave Donald Trump out of the conversation, obviously. But the absence of reference to or recognition of reality
1:40:09
it's an extraordinary psychological process, isn't it, by which you can somehow persuade yourself
1:40:16
that black is white, that up is down, that north is south
1:40:21
You can persuade yourself of almost anything, but the persuasion is so fragile
1:40:29
so fragile that when someone pulls a thread calmly and politely, as that NBC journalist just did
1:40:37
the whole thing comes down in an avalanche of fury fury and retribution and shame
1:40:45
So that was the act of a man feeling shame briefly and blaming everybody around him for the shame
1:40:52
So I'm fascinated by the confection of it all, by the assembly, the construction
1:40:59
the erection of absolute nonsense, absolute lies. But his own relationship with his own lies
1:41:08
is what came to light in that clip. And the fact that it is so fragile
1:41:14
his grasp upon the lies, his dedication, his necessity, his need for the lies is so complete
1:41:23
but his grasp upon them is so fragile. He knows that the most cursory scrutiny
1:41:31
can make the whole thing come tumbling down. And you saw it come tumbling down
1:41:35
So now he turns his attention this morning to the ceasefire. What day is it, Keith? Monday
1:41:42
So, Monday... Well, I used to joke about a month ago, I started joking, that it's Monday
1:41:48
so it's a ceasefire. It's Tuesday, so it's a threat of what's going to happen
1:41:51
if there isn't a ceasefire. It's Wednesday, so it's a declaration of glorious victory
1:41:55
and the complete obliteration of Iran's military capabilities. It's Friday... I missed out Thursday
1:42:01
It's Thursday, and Iran has done something which has prompted Donald Trump to threaten
1:42:05
the things that he's already obliterated with imminent obliteration. It's Friday, we're back to the ceasefire again
1:42:11
It's Saturday, they're firing at each other. Well, it's Monday, and they're firing at each other
1:42:16
And this is what the President of the United States of America has reduced to writing this morning
1:42:21
Both sides, Israel and Iran, are looking to do an immediate ceasefire
1:42:26
Capital letters, exclamation mark. Final negotiations on, quote marks, peace, end quotes
1:42:32
are proceeding, subject to ignorance or stupidity getting in its way. I don't know if those are his new nicknames for J.D. Vance and Pete Hegseth, but if they are, they work for me
1:42:44
Subject to ignorance or stupidity getting in its way. The blockade, with an utterly pointless capital B, will remain in place
1:42:51
That's his blockade, not Iran's blockade, because Iran blockaded the Strait of Hormuz
1:42:55
and he responded by blockading the Strait of Hormuz. And in full force and effect, until a, quote, final deal, end quotes, also in caps for the F and the D, is reached
1:43:05
things should move quickly thank you for your attention to this matter
1:43:09
i mean you can't stop reporting it but it's increasingly difficult to
1:43:15
yze it and and then you come to recent events benjamin netanyahu bombed beirut uh israel launched strikes in the beirut
1:43:23
area for the first time since the truce was announced for lebanon last week so you can count how long that lasted in
1:43:30
hours. In retaliation, Iran launches a salvo of missiles at Israeli targets, which
1:43:37
puts the peace talks that are currently ongoing between the US and Iran at risk
1:43:42
And, of course, any solution to this, any resolution to this, ends up being
1:43:48
a watered-down, less satisfactory, less effective version of what Barack Obama's administration
1:43:53
negotiated 10 or so, more than 10 years ago, and which Donald Trump
1:43:57
set fire to on pretty much his first day in the White House. Here is the
1:44:01
latest contribution to US-Israeli relations under Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu. It's not going to have
1:44:07
any impact on the deal. I call the shots. I call all the shots
1:44:11
He doesn't call the shots. He's also been reported recently to have described Netanyahu
1:44:21
or a conversation between the two of them describing him as shouting
1:44:26
Shouting at Benjamin Netanyahu and telling him that everyone hates Israel as a consequence of what he's
1:44:31
been doing and what the hell are you doing and using bad language. I'll refresh
1:44:35
your memory as to exactly what words were reportedly used in that conversation shortly
1:44:42
But every single time we return our attention to this, when does the World Cup start? Is it on Thursday
1:44:49
It's imminent, isn't it? So he's probably going to want something to announce in time for the World Cup
1:44:53
to start otherwise he might have to give back his FIFA Peace Prize Every time turn our attention to this i don know what happens to your minds or your conscience is it Your heart or your head
1:45:05
But it's so torn. I really like talking about important things. It's why I do what I do for a living
1:45:14
I even like talking about important things when the important things are terrible
1:45:18
I enjoy the intellectual process of our exchanges every day, even when the subject matter is unbearable
1:45:25
Enjoy seems like the wrong word. Perhaps value would be a better word
1:45:29
Last week was tough. Last week was really tough. But I still valued our conversations
1:45:35
your contributions to our conversation when we were talking about the attempts to turn Henry Novak
1:45:42
well, the decision by various people to completely ignore the wishes of Henry Novak's family
1:45:46
the judge, the prosecution lawyer and the pathologist, and to pretend instead that that hideous crime
1:45:52
was evidence of some sort of anti-white bias or a consequence of immigration
1:45:57
A point taken up by J.D. Vance this weekend in a characteristically hideous intervention
1:46:04
So that was tough, but I still valued it. It still was worthwhile
1:46:09
And yet, when it is as awful as this, when you're looking at the absolute destruction of diplomacy
1:46:18
in the Middle East, and I don't even know what we're looking at now
1:46:22
You're looking at the death of anything that is ysable. You know how it ends
1:46:28
It ends with a settlement that's worse than what was there before
1:46:32
That's how it ends. That is the only case scenario. Either it goes on forever
1:46:37
or it ends with a settlement that is worse than the one that Barack Obama put there
1:46:43
That's it. I don't think anybody really disputes that. You can't even anymore subscribe to the idea
1:46:49
that it's very important that they remove Iran's nuclear capability because they've told us several times that they have
1:46:55
And then they've said that they haven't. And then they've said that they're about to. And then they've said that they have
1:46:59
And then they've said that they will. And then they've said that they haven't. But they will. And they won't. And they will
1:47:03
But they do. Thank you for your attention to this matter. President Donald J. Trump. It's insane
1:47:08
It's objectively insane. But he's the President of the United States of America
1:47:13
so we have to all behave as if it isn't. because what other choice is there
1:47:17
Just sit here every day for three hours going bonkers, bonkers, bonkers, bonkers, bonkers, bonkers, bonkers
1:47:22
And of course he's in charge. He is in charge. He, according to himself, calls all the shots
1:47:27
Netanyahu doesn't call any shots. So he tells Netanyahu not to retaliate and Netanyahu retaliates
1:47:35
So the interesting thing, if you enjoy talking about interesting things, is the schism that has now grown up between Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump
1:47:46
between whom I would say little love is lost now, which is a remarkable turnaround from that ludicrous visit to Israel
1:47:55
that Donald Trump undertook when he was greeted almost as the second coming
1:47:59
in the Knesset, a hideous spectacle, which was a sort of glorious thank you for either endorsing or looking the other way
1:48:08
while Israel embarked upon its hideous campaigns in Gaza. That road appears to have expired
1:48:16
Of course, when you're talking about Trump, the biggest problem is that what's true today will not be true tomorrow
1:48:20
because he neither believes in nor subscribes to anything except self-advancement, self-enrichment and self-aggrandizement
1:48:26
So it may well be that today he holds Benjamin Netanyahu in the very lowest regard
1:48:33
But Benjamin Netanyahu will give him a, I don't know, a blankety-blank checkbook and pen
1:48:37
and suddenly he'll like him again. I'm not exaggerating. Well, obviously it wouldn't be a blankety-blank checkbook and pen
1:48:42
but it would be similarly pointless, like a FIFA peace prize. And his ego is such that it will be preened and stroked
1:48:48
and pricked to such a degree that he will change his opinion again
1:48:52
And he doesn't care how many Iranians die, he doesn't care how many Israelis die
1:48:56
as long as he feels good briefly and nobody dares ask him for evidence of all the things that he's claiming
1:49:03
Knitting together all of the elements of Donald Trump's regime that we've discussed so far this morning
1:49:07
but what if Trump does, well it's been clear for a while hasn't it
1:49:15
that Netanyahu is going to do what's best for Netanyahu and he reckons that
1:49:19
a form of perpetual war is best for Netanyahu attacks upon Beirut
1:49:25
I wish you'd look at pictures of Beirut I mean there's no point looking at pictures of Gaza
1:49:31
you might as well look at some sort of Star Wars landscape of a completely
1:49:35
obliterated habitation But Beirut is a sophisticated, civilized city, and Netanyahu has started bombing it, started attacking it
1:49:44
And I don't think Trump wanted him to. I don't think that's controversial
1:49:48
I don't even think that's questionable. So Netanyahu is going to do whatever he wants to do in this space
1:49:56
I don't know... I don't know what Trump can do to stop Netanyahu
1:50:04
if he actually wanted to. How can he announce a lasting peak
1:50:09
So I think, and listen, this is just me, and you are 100% welcome to challenge the very parameters
1:50:16
of the question that I'm about to ask you. But where I think we are now is that Benjamin Netanyahu
1:50:22
has, since not long after the terror attack that Hamas visited upon Israel on October 7th
1:50:31
since not long after that, because for a while at least, It felt to almost everybody that the response would be both justified and proportionate
1:50:42
But it didn't take long for anybody honest and unbiased to realise that the response was both entirely disproportionate and wholly unjustified
1:50:53
Ever since that moment, Benjamin Netanyahu has been doing whatever he wanted and attacking whoever he wanted
1:51:00
and paying barely even lip service to peace agreements or ceasefires, whether they've been announced by Donald Trump or otherwise
1:51:08
He's been doing whatever he wanted, and he's been doing whatever he thinks is best for his own political ambitions
1:51:14
including turning the attack onto Lebanon, going into Lebanon, attacking Lebanon, pushing back the boundaries into Lebanon
1:51:21
Even as Donald Trump was announcing that they weren't going to go into Lebanon, he was going into Lebanon
1:51:26
And I think we've reached a point now where you have two possibly psychopathic egos
1:51:34
that have been in lockstep with each other since October the 7th
1:51:40
that are now pulling in completely different directions. Trump wants a ceasefire. He wants peace
1:51:49
He probably regrets getting involved in this in the first place. We can rely upon Marco Rubio's testimony that he only did so
1:51:54
because Benjamin Netanyahu told him it would be easy and he'd be able to spend the rest of the year doing laps of honour
1:52:00
claiming that he'd brought peace to the Middle East where all previous presidents had failed
1:52:04
Except, of course, they hadn't, because the deal that was in place with Iran when Trump became president
1:52:08
was imperfect but working. The only people who didn't like it were Benjamin Netanyahu and his closest allies
1:52:15
because they kind of need some form of perpetual war in order to keep the population compliant, I suppose
1:52:22
or supportive or whatever word you prefer So you got two possible psychopaths certainly two narcissists dedicated solely to self self self
1:52:36
because, of course, Netanyahu still hasn't faced his corruption trial. Self, dedicated to self. That's why I use the word narcissist
1:52:43
I don't have the diagnostic qualifications, but, you know, I think we can use that word fairly confidently
1:52:49
You've got two narcissists that have been in cahoots until this point
1:52:56
What happens when they want different things? 0345 6060 973
1:53:06
I genuinely have no clue what happens now. Can, for example, Netanyahu carry on attack
1:53:13
Does Trump just bottle it and claim that this is what he wanted all along
1:53:17
your answers aren't going to be provable so we'll take theories and ideas and thoughtfulness on this
1:53:23
question it seems to me that the rift between netanyahu and trump is now both significant and
1:53:31
serious and i don't know what that means netanyahu starts attacking beirut trump tells him not to he
1:53:38
ignores trump trump finds him up calls him names shouts at him claims that everybody hates israel
1:53:43
as a consequence. Anybody else said that, they'd be called anti-Semitic by tea time
1:53:47
wouldn't they? Anybody else said that what Benjamin Netanyahu is doing is making everybody hate Israel
1:53:53
You'd hear the conflation accusation, you'd hear the anti-Semitism accusation. For some reason, Trump gets a free pass on that
1:53:59
Why? Because usually, the people who use anti-Semitism dishonestly to describe critics of Israel
1:54:05
are quite comfortable with anything Donald Trump says, as long as he keeps endorsing the attacks upon Gaza
1:54:12
and latterly Lebanon. So what happens? What happens when Netanyahu no longer has Trump's support
1:54:23
Answers on a postcard, please. Well, ideally, answers on the phone. 0345 6060 973
1:54:29
In a way, I'm asking what happens next. But I think, unless you're following it differently
1:54:35
or you're reading it differently from me, Trump and Netanyahu are now pulling in different directions
1:54:42
Trump's dreams of a ceasefire or a peace, even though we know he's going to pretend
1:54:46
that it is something better than what Obama delivered, even though it will be measurably and objectively worse
1:54:52
He can tell those lies, but he can't tell those lies if Netanyahu is still bombing Beirut
1:54:57
So what happens when Trump and Netanyahu are no longer on the same side
1:55:03
I haven't got a Scooby-Doo. Have you? 0345 6060 973. and I wonder whether Netanyahu is sitting there laughing at Trump
1:55:14
He puts the phone down having been called all the names under the sun and just goes, I've played you, pal
1:55:19
You're in it up to your ears. You can't back out of this now. You joined us in Iran
1:55:24
You were too busy talking about Iran that you didn't really pay enough attention
1:55:27
to when we started attacking Lebanon. We started occupying even more territories
1:55:32
I've played you like an old mandolin, Mr. Trump. I don't know. I want to know what you think about this
1:55:37
but what happens when Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu are no longer on the same side or on the same team
1:55:48
Hit the numbers now. You will get through. 0345 6060 973. James O'Brien on LBC
1:55:57
Of course, the problem with trying to yse Donald Trump is that you might as well try and nail jelly to a wall or herd cats
1:56:04
If he says something at 2 o'clock, he could say the opposite at half past two, and if something appears to be the case at three o'clock
1:56:10
the opposite would appear to be the case at four o'clock. But we don't really have any choice
1:56:16
Either you try to make sense of what is going on, or you completely ignore it
1:56:20
And you can't completely ignore it. So what is going on now? It would appear that relations between Trump and Netanyahu
1:56:27
have hit close to rock bottom. I don't know whether you agree with Donald Trump
1:56:33
that Benjamin Netanyahu's actions have made everybody hate Israel. But they are certainly seeing an extraordinary reversal of fortunes
1:56:42
when it comes to popular support in constituencies that were previously very supportive and defensive
1:56:47
of the modern state of Israel. The only, in my view, honest position to adopt
1:56:53
with regards to these matters has always been a recognition of the necessity for a Jewish homeland in Israel
1:57:01
and also a recognition of rights of Palestinian people. The so-called two-state solution
1:57:07
which is a little bit mealy-mouthed, a little bit airy-fairy, but it is the only thing that can happen
1:57:11
without some form of perpetual war or perpetual tension. But you're not really allowed to say that
1:57:17
Both sides sometimes get cross with you if you suggest that you feel just as sad at the death of an Israeli child or a Jewish child
1:57:24
as you do at the death of a Palestinian or an Arab child. Some people have got deep problems
1:57:28
with that simple notion of human equivalence. but you have to try to make sense of what is going on
1:57:36
and Trump appears to have realised that Netanyahu has played him like an old piano
1:57:41
You can say two things with certainty. Number one, he will never admit that
1:57:45
and number two, he will react irrationally. But what does that mean
1:57:51
How significant is it that relations appear to have reached rock bottom and what on earth happens next
1:57:57
Let's go to Ash, who's in Northampton. Ash, as you will know, is a maritime expert who has pretty accurately predicted every..
1:58:05
What's the unit of measurement for sea? I can't remember. Gallon? Every gallon of what has gone on in the Strait of Hormuz
1:58:14
But you venture into slightly different territory now, Ash. What does it mean, if, as seems possible, if not probable
1:58:21
Trump and Netanyahu have reached the end of their particular rainbow? Yeah, good afternoon, James
1:58:28
It's different but the same. and that's a weird thing for me to say
1:58:32
I normally wouldn't ring if it's a land-based conflict, but this is much a continuation of the same thing
1:58:40
I said quite a while ago that the US has no clean third option
1:58:45
It only has two options. Try to preserve the status quo, defend its Gulf partners
1:58:51
try to keep shipping moving. Gulf partners, yeah? Yeah. I thought you said Gulf for a minute
1:58:57
which would be equally viable, wouldn't it, when you're talking about Donald Trump, but you did say Gulf
1:59:01
and my brain went to a strange place. My apologies. That's okay. Fathoms is what I was looking for
1:59:06
Carry on. That's all right. Yeah. Or it can align itself more closely with Israel
1:59:10
and go down that route. I think we're in a situation... This situation is merely..
1:59:17
You now have two paths in the woods, and they both end up at the same destination. And I think Trump and Netanyahu
1:59:24
all they're going to do is walk down different paths to the same place
1:59:27
you've got to remember it's not just it's not just... And I disagree with you here
1:59:31
and I do that very cautiously because I don't think Netanyahu wants peace
1:59:35
really. No, but neither really does Trump but your... Why do you say that
1:59:42
Because I think he does. I think he thought it was going to be over and done with very very quickly. I think you told me that
1:59:47
Yeah. And then he will be able to claim that he's... He'll be able to essentially
1:59:52
steal Barack Obama's lunch and claim that it was his all along even though we all know he's only
1:59:56
got half a mouldy old role and a moth-eaten paper. winning his lunchbox, whereas Obama's was at least a proper meal
2:00:03
But we know he's going to do that. He needs a ceasefire in order to make that claim, doesn't he
2:00:09
Yeah, but that was a couple of months ago. Okay. Okay, yeah, good point
2:00:15
Significantly since then. Of course. And I think what we're at now is you have to bring in the proxies now back into it
2:00:23
You have to bring in the Houthis, you have to bring in Hezbollah, and you have to bring in, to some extent, Hamas
2:00:30
But we can probably leave Hamas as a side note at the moment
2:00:34
Okay. The reason I bring in the Houthis is because, again, this is one of the reasons I called in
2:00:38
This is maritime, what they've done today. This is now maritime. Yeah, okay. Back in your comfort zone
2:00:43
Because the sensible, well, the rational thing that's going to happen now
2:00:48
is Iran is going to step up the Houthi proxy war and it's going to try and force two different fronts on Israel, Hezbollah and Houthis
2:00:59
The Houthis have said all along that if they do need to step up, the first thing they're going to hit is the Babar Mandib Strait
2:01:04
which means that's going to start affecting more Western trade because that's the entrance to the Red Sea
2:01:11
There's another choke point. That's where the maritime trade goes through. Yep
2:01:16
Yep. So, and this is why Trump can't just now claim victory and walk away
2:01:22
because that's going to disrupt even more Saudi Arabian, Kuwaiti, Qatari, Bahrainian and Armenian trade
2:01:34
because they're currently using a lot of the Red Sea ports to do their stuff
2:01:39
They can't do that once that begins. And that's why I'm saying you've got two different paths now starting to diverge
2:01:46
And it's kind of irrelevant whether or not Netanyahu and Trump are on the same page
2:01:50
They could even be actively shouting at each other. It doesn't matter
2:01:56
Netanyahu needs to keep his war going to remain out of prison and to remain on the right side of people like Itamar Ben-Gavir
2:02:05
who want the expansionism, who want war. I mean, they're even talking about Syria now as an expansion. That came up last week
2:02:14
Trump is locked in a position where his other allies, and, you know, we'll leave the Abraham Accords to the side for the minute
2:02:25
as to what we're supposed to do about them, but Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, Amman
2:02:31
the UAE to a similar extent. Now that all this has happened, look at what Iran is saying
2:02:38
We're going to start striking these other countries because they are part of this system
2:02:44
so it kind of doesn't matter like they they can argue they can all they want but they're not the
2:02:53
only players in the room at the moment i i understand i understand most of what you're
2:02:58
saying but not if i'm completely honest all of it because because in a sense if i say what happens if
2:03:04
netanyahu and trump become detached from each other then i think your answer is well there will
2:03:09
then be two things unfolding, two separate things unfolding. Trump will be independent of what is
2:03:15
going on with Netanyahu, but all of the other players in the region won't. They will respond to it
2:03:19
accordingly, whether it's, you know, the Houthis or whether it's Saudi Arabia. And Trump is essentially
2:03:25
reduced to bystander status now. In the Israel conflict, yes, but then in the wider
2:03:33
Gulf conflict, no, he will have to set up because it's part of that
2:03:39
ally situation that Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait will be defended by the United States
2:03:46
So, and, you know, if the Houthis start up in the Bab al-Mandeb, that is an effective attack on
2:03:53
more maritime trade in the area, which again affects more of the Western countries. It affects
2:03:59
more of the trade going through. You will just have multiple conflicts going on rather than
2:04:08
seeing it as one wider conflict. So in the context of Israel and Iran
2:04:15
is Trump now irrelevant? Between Israel and Iran? Yeah. Because he's telling them both to stop shooting
2:04:22
but they're going to do what they're going to do regardless of what Trump says or does
2:04:28
Well, for a start, they haven't stopped shooting. Yeah. Yeah, sort of
2:04:33
I mean, in as much as Lebanon is the point of conflict there
2:04:37
Yes. At the moment. As well as, you know, I fully appreciate
2:04:42
basically the constitution of Iran is anti-Israel. I'm fully aware of that
2:04:46
You know, it's more of a thing to fight over rather than an ideological, you know, standpoint
2:04:54
But yes, the USA, in as much as it is decision-making within that conflict, kind of irrelevant
2:05:02
and kind of has been for the last three, four weeks. Yeah. Yeah, and yet because he posts on Truth Social
2:05:08
and because he's the President of the United States of America, we may not hang upon his every word
2:05:13
but we can't quite process the idea that this thing that he didn't quite start
2:05:19
but which he's been absolutely associated with and front and centre in
2:05:26
we can't quite believe that it really doesn't matter what he says or does next
2:05:30
neither Iran nor Israel, particularly with regard to Lebanon and retaliation, about Lebanon are going to be particularly bothered about what he says or does
2:05:40
Precisely. And that's also a factor of how long this has dragged on with the diplomacy
2:05:46
Iran has made it very clear they don't trust the US now in diplomacy because every time they get to a certain situation
2:05:51
it either falls apart or they get bombed. And I don't think Israel have ever really cared in that sense
2:05:57
because they are the ones who are on the side of the people doing the negotiating
2:06:01
which is the USA. So, I mean, could... There's two questions here
2:06:06
I don't know if you can answer either of them. One is, could Trump stop Netanyahu if he wanted to
2:06:11
And the other is, could the United States stop Netanyahu if they wanted to
2:06:17
I think the question is, would they want to? No, the question is, could they, if they did want to
2:06:22
Yeah. That's the sort of question that I would love a senior ex-diplomat to come on and answer
2:06:30
because I have taken it to believe that Trump doesn really want to stop them Up until now Up until now I think that phone call I mean and you know there be a couple of people in my inbox here Ollie that it performative nonsense to cover up the
2:06:47
fact that they're in deep cahoots as well as throwing a bone, so there'll always be somebody who thinks, and he's even mentioned Epstein, but he does seem to me to have had enough of this
2:06:56
he wishes it would go away, you can tell because he keeps pretending it's not a big deal, he keeps
2:07:00
saying, oh it's not a big deal, it's not a big deal, and then of course reality just breaks through
2:07:04
his brain and he starts tweeting endlessly about it and how important it is and how amazing he is
2:07:09
and thank you for your attention to this matter president Donald J Trump so I think the fact that
2:07:13
he's pretending it doesn't matter and isn't important is probably the most compelling proof that he wishes it had never started and is desperate to get out of it Netanyahu has seemed
2:07:22
likely for long before this conflict started will do whatever he wants and neither you nor I know
2:07:29
because they've been so joined at the hip for decades, neither you nor I know whether in America
2:07:36
whoever the leader is, whether the United States could actually order Israel to stop attacking, for example, Beirut and Lebanon
2:07:43
I don't know. Unless they went through the UN Security Council, maybe
2:07:47
They've rejected... But there's no... I mean, Israel in particular has treated
2:07:52
UN Security Council resolutions with contempt now for years. but because America wasn't backing it
2:08:00
So America would suddenly discover an appetite for the United Nations to have some sort of primacy in the region
2:08:09
Yeah, and it's an odd thing, but I am very much on the side of there now being two paths
2:08:15
to conflict and war. Amazing. And it's kind of irrelevant whether Iran and the US
2:08:23
are on the same path. Because the US involvement in Iran versus Israel is one thing
2:08:30
and then Israel, no, then Iran versus everybody else becomes a different thing entirely
2:08:36
Yes, because the wider regional conflict with the other countries in the Gulf
2:08:41
is something that the US will have to take consideration. Israel aren't going to worry about that anyway
2:08:47
despite the Abraham Accords, because it's not really their problem. No, of course it isn't
2:08:51
And, I mean, there lies the reason why I suggested at the outset
2:08:55
that this would be, it's important to try to unpick it, but there is no guarantee of success
2:08:59
Ash, always a pleasure. You can follow Ash on Blue Sky, should you wish. Ash, or O-R-O, sorry, O-R-O
2:09:05
So Ash, new word, O-R-O, is his handle. And as he says, he is a lot more comfortable in maritime territory
2:09:14
That's not an oxymoron. But pretty helpful there as well. And I don't know if anyone can answer this question
2:09:21
And what does it mean, apart from that logistical answer, it means there's essentially now two wars where not long ago there weren't any
2:09:29
What does it mean if Trump and Netanyahu are no longer on the same team
2:09:34
What does it mean for Israel? It's 1236, good Lord. Matt Hewitt's here with your headline
2:09:40
James O'Brien on LBC. A lot of the stuff we've been talking about this morning
2:09:46
or rather it picks up this morning on a lot of stuff we've been talking about this afternoon
2:09:50
and describes the alliance, if you like, the partnership between Trump and Netanyahu as collapsing
2:09:57
Trump seeks to tie Netanyahu's hands as the partnership that went to war 100 days ago collapses
2:10:03
telling Israel it had better not respond to an Iranian missile attack. The US president, desperate for a deal with the devilish Tehran regime
2:10:11
presented the PM with a stark dilemma. They go on to suggest that that relationship has reached its nadir
2:10:18
It's, as I said a moment ago, it's rock bottom. And then you have the growing rift between the two of them
2:10:26
with Trump telling Barack Ravid, his favourite Israeli journalist, I am going to call Bibi right now and tell him not to retaliate
2:10:33
Each of them had their fun. Israel had its strike and Iran had its strike. We don't need another one
2:10:38
And now you have that development that just popped up during the bulletin
2:10:42
news that Iran has said yes. so Donald Trump demands that Israel and Iran stop firing at each other Iran says yes
2:10:52
and there was no immediate response from Israel so we can say two things with some confidence this
2:10:58
is quite a big change and it was very much the right question to ask at 12 o'clock this afternoon
2:11:04
because now you've got Iran arguably playing a clever diplomatic game with Donald Trump I mean
2:11:11
look me in the eye and tell me that Donald Trump couldn't completely transfer his allegiances from Israel to Iran
2:11:16
if he thought it would serve his own purposes. Rightly or wrongly, he thought it would serve his own purposes better
2:11:21
Which is why I asked you just before the news, what on earth does this do to Israel
2:11:25
Where does this leave Israel? But I'm overcomplicating the question. The question is pretty simple
2:11:30
What does it mean for everything and everybody if Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu are no longer on the same team
2:11:39
if that 100-day-old partnership is over? What does it mean? So, Ash has already given us a meaningful military answer
2:11:47
It means that there are now two theatres of war. But what about the rest of it
2:11:52
What does it mean for Israeli security? What does it mean for the future? What does it mean for Israel, and indeed any and everybody else
2:12:00
if Netanyahu and Trump are no longer allies? Bob's in Brighton. Bob, what would you like to say
2:12:07
Afternoon, James. Hello. You know how the Magalot and people affiliated with that wing hate giving foreign aid
2:12:17
Yes. Well, one of the things that Trump could do is stop giving foreign aid to Israel
2:12:22
I don't think he could, though, could he, because of the role that organisations like AIPAC play in funding Republican politicians
2:12:30
Well, I don't know about that, because there's been several things that Trump's had gone to Congress in order to do
2:12:35
which he's refused to do and just carried on with without them. So they would punish..
2:12:42
What would the retaliation be from US supporters, American-based supporters of... And this is still a very real constituency, sadly
2:12:52
There doesn't appear to be much reflection upon whether Netanyahu is acting in the best interests of Israel
2:12:57
among many of his supporters in America, even as Donald Trump, previously one of his biggest supporters
2:13:03
describes him as having made everybody hate Israel. I don't know what the retaliation would be
2:13:08
I don't know what would be brought into play if they stopped providing..
2:13:13
I mean support whether it aid or business support military support to Israel They just said that it now we turning off the tap Both are good you know military and foreign aid I mean I think it easier for Trump
2:13:28
we have to remember that Trump is protecting himself. Always. And he's got his vanity at the centre of that
2:13:36
Well, this is the beauty of it, isn't it, historically, is that Netanyahu and Trump, the only things you can say with any confidence about either of them is that they will always
2:13:43
prioritised their own fortunes above every and anything else. And their fortunes were allied until they weren't
2:13:49
And now they're no longer allied. I don't know that anybody has got a really clear bead
2:13:53
on what that means or what will happen next. No, I just think that they're both going to be
2:13:58
into their own self-interest. And for Netanyahu, he's got to attack to the right
2:14:02
and stay attacked to the right because the alliances he's got with the ethno-nationalists
2:14:06
that he's formed a coalition with. And with Trump, he's already got a groundswell of support
2:14:12
for no foreign wars and cutting foreign aid. So they can't, and never the twain shall meet
2:14:16
He can't get what he wants if Netanyahu gets what he wants. And for 100 days, it's looked like they both wanted the same thing
2:14:22
Yes. It's mad, right? I mean, it's a serious, a really, because it's Trump
2:14:28
and to a lesser extent Netanyahu, we've taken the easy route of thinking, oh, there's no point trying to yse it
2:14:33
because it's like trying to nail jelly to a wall or herd cats. But actually, we're looking at a moment of really, really serious significance
2:14:40
which the Times of Israel picks up on by pointing out that it's the end of the partnership
2:14:45
But even they don't really speculate on what that means or what happens next. I can say, James, I think, you know
2:14:53
Trump is so self-interested and we have seen that he has absolutely zero regard
2:14:57
for past alliances or international order. So Iran can't trust him. Iran knows it can't trust him
2:15:02
because he torched the last deal that they signed. But they now might have a shared outcome with Trump
2:15:08
which is that he wants the end of the war. Which means he has to put the pressure on Israel to end it
2:15:12
And that's what we're wondering what that looks like. And you suggest I'm too polite to say pie in the sky
2:15:17
but I think it's unlikely that he would have the political confidence
2:15:21
let alone the maneuver, the room for maneuver, to punish Israel in terms of aid or arms sales
2:15:30
But in the absence of that, I don't know what else fits. It's a feasible answer, technically, but not, I don't think, practically
2:15:38
Extraordinary. Thank you, Bob. I really recommend even this piece in the Ties of Israel by David Horowitz
2:15:46
under the headline, Trump seeks to tie Netanyahu's hands as the partnership that went to war 100 days ago collapses
2:15:52
Because as Bob has just brought to the table, the question I've been asking
2:15:56
in my characteristically long-winded fashion is really, can he? Can Donald Trump tie Benjamin Netanyahu's hands
2:16:04
Can Benjamin Netanyahu... Can Donald Trump tie Benjamin Netanyahu's hands? That's actually not only where this editorial takes us
2:16:12
but where the calls so far take us. Can he? They're now pursuing different objectives
2:16:19
They are increasingly at odds with each other. Donald Trump, in the eyes of many people
2:16:26
correctly pointing out that Benjamin Netanyahu's actions have absolutely filleted sympathy and support for Israel
2:16:35
I think that's measurable by opinion polls. No justification of an increase in anti-Semitism
2:16:43
but a massive decrease in support for Israel in its current guise
2:16:48
under its current regime. Donald Trump can say that. A lot of people still in an atmosphere of public discourse
2:16:56
very carefully cultivated. A lot of people still aren't allowed to really say that
2:17:00
Benjamin Netanyahu has done immeasurable damage to Israel's reputation on the world stage
2:17:05
without being accused of either anti-Semitism or conflating Jewish people with the modern state of Israel
2:17:12
But Netanyahu does it all the time, and Trump is now accusing him of having made the whole world hate Israel
2:17:19
So they appear to have reached the end of their rainbow. What does it mean
2:17:23
Can Trump stop Netanyahu from whatever it is he wants to do next
2:17:28
0345 6060 973. James O'Brien on LBC. It's one of those mornings where I'm not quite sure where it's all gone
2:17:38
A little quiz for you. Which British politician has accepted £83,000 in fees
2:17:46
from US anti-abortion groups and events? Remember, I'll give you a little clue
2:17:52
Racism and misogyny always go hand in hand, darling. So which British politician is reported today
2:17:58
to have received £83,000 in earnings, accommodation and flights from groups or events that support the US anti-abortion movement
2:18:10
No prizes, but it would be interesting to see if you guessed that correctly
2:18:15
Can't be Farage, can it? Because he's got £5 million squirrelled away secretly in his current account
2:18:19
Why on earth would he be dancing for coins for anti-abortion lobbies
2:18:24
in a foreign country? So I wonder who's left to fit into that particular category
2:18:29
But that's not what we're talking about now. We're talking about whether or not Trump can tie Netanyahu's hands
2:18:34
as the Times of Israel posits this morning. Graham's in The Hague
2:18:38
Graham, what do you reckon? Hey, James. How are you doing? All good
2:18:42
Good show today. Thanks. You make it sound like it's not a good show every day, but we'll let that pass
2:18:48
It's more often good than not, how is it? That'll do. God, I'm going with it. So, yeah, real quick
2:18:53
yeah, there is a very easy way to stop this, a very easy way to tie Netanyahu's hands
2:18:57
and that's to stop supplying arms and money to Israel overnight. Yeah, technically easy, but it's utterly unfeasible
2:19:05
Isn't it utterly unfeasible? No, absolutely not. Why would it be unfeasible? Because of the relationship between Israel supporters
2:19:14
and American politics in general, and the Republican Party in particular. That's very true
2:19:20
and I'd ask you to go look at Thomas Massey from that point of view
2:19:24
I have. Out of Texas. Yes. Yeah, 37 million dropped on his campaign
2:19:27
by Israeli lobbyists, etc, etc. Yes. He's actually advocating for what I'm talking about too
2:19:33
Turn it over. Stop it. But under Trump... Stopping the weapons. The question is under Trump
2:19:39
Could it happen under Trump? The answer to the question is, yes, it could
2:19:44
It won't, because Trump doesn't want it to. No, that's what I meant. So that's what I said to Ash half an hour ago, there are two questions here
2:19:53
Can Donald Trump stop Benjamin Netanyahu or can an American president stop Benjamin Netanyahu And with Trump is it can or won do you think A bit of both really yeah he painted himself into a corner he can back down iran holds all the cards right now and on top of that about an hour
2:20:11
ago iran just played a blinder by being the moral adult in the room again and stopping its attacks
2:20:16
based on donald trump's claim i mean israel is continuing i uh you see what i mean here i know
2:20:23
exactly what you mean here i know i see it very clearly in fact i'd level with you don't tell
2:20:27
anyone else I told you this, but when I first said on the radio, hand on heart, and I can't
2:20:33
believe I'm saying this, going back a couple of months now, who would you trust more? Who would
2:20:38
you consider to be more objectively reliable? The, you know, hideous Iranian regime or the
2:20:45
hideous US regime? And I paused, I paused, Graham, before asking that question, because it was quite
2:20:53
provocative and inflammatory but now we've gone even further where the president of the united
2:20:57
states of america has asked two combatants to cease fire and iran the historical enemy has
2:21:03
come back and said yes okay whereas israel the historic ally has said well so far buckish nothing
2:21:10
yeah i mean to give you to speak directly to that point i mean there used to be a very famous
2:21:17
an old mosque in tehran and there is a small jewish population in tehran and they're protected
2:21:22
and they have representation in Parliament. That mosque is no longer there
2:21:26
because the USA bombed it. I mean, that's one way of looking at it
2:21:32
And does Trump... Also, ask Assad. Ask Assad who's more trustworthy. Iran or America
2:21:37
And did Trump's, I don't know, does Trump's petulance extend to burning bridges with Benjamin Netanyahu
2:21:44
and therefore Israel, regardless of what his supporters back in the United States might want
2:21:51
At least we can all agree He's done a brilliant job, Donald Trump, of negotiating the ceasefire and winning the war
2:21:56
Thank you for your attention to this matter, Donald J. Trump. And that phone call was, I mean, genuinely breathtaking when you think about how it started 100 days ago
2:22:08
Trump called Netanyahu effing crazy. It was leaked, the call. It's caused great political damage to Netanyahu ahead of the elections that he's got coming up
2:22:18
because I imagine that average Israelis, if you can speak of such a thing
2:22:25
and by that I just mean multiplicity and complexities of opinions and positions
2:22:30
but average Israeli public opinion, if you like, will be deeply worried about where that country
2:22:37
where their country is left in the absence of US support. But calling, obviously calling Netanyahu effing crazy
2:22:44
and claiming that he's making everybody hate Israel is going to give almost everybody cause for pause
2:22:53
except, well, maybe except some people. Dwayne Zanisha, Dwayne, what would you like to say
2:22:57
Thank you, Graeme. Dwayne, what's on your mind? Yeah, the last caller was really good, and so were you
2:23:03
Well, that's very equitable of you. You sound like Donald Trump. Thank you for your attention to this matter
2:23:08
The American movement to support Israel would be incredibly difficult to stop
2:23:14
because of the IPAC situation. But buried deep in the bill last week
2:23:21
for DHS and home security was the fact that the US military
2:23:28
and the Israeli military will merge into one next year. That will enable the US
2:23:36
to continue to supply Israel with weapons and tools and everything else
2:23:41
This is the United States-Israel Defence Technology Cooperation Initiative, as it appears in Section 224
2:23:48
of the House Armed Services Committee's version of the fiscal year 2027 National Defence Authorisation Act
2:23:54
I think, off the top of my head. Yes. The last caller mentioned Thomas Massey
2:23:58
and a number of other Republicans, and obviously all the Democrats, who have said enough is enough
2:24:05
stop supplying the bombs, stop supplying the money, blah, blah, blah. That becomes irrelevant next year
2:24:13
If this gets passed. Correct. 3.8 billion a year under Barack Obama
2:24:18
I think it's important to point that out. That's the current aid deal signed during the administration of Obama
2:24:23
That ends in 2028 when the 10-year agreement runs out and this would be part of its replacement
2:24:31
But it also gets over the fact that they don't need IPAC money anymore
2:24:35
because they'll be providing what they're providing as part of this. And remember, Republicans have got Congress right now
2:24:43
It'll pass. Yes, right now they have, but they won't necessarily when it comes to the time of the vote, will it
2:24:48
Well, the vote should be within the next month. Oh, really? Yes
2:24:52
I thought it was next year. I believe it's next month. And that would mean that..
2:24:59
All the arguments about all stops in Israel... Are a bit mute. Yeah, they're all a bit mute
2:25:04
But Trump does seem to be genuinely running out of patience with Netanyahu
2:25:08
the bigger picture renders that irrelevant because of what this proposal, were it to be enacted, would actually deliver
2:25:16
essentially bringing the US and the Israeli militaries closer together than ever before, than ever before
2:25:23
Anyway, quick answer to the question of which British politician has taken £83,000 from US anti-abortion groups and events
2:25:32
I mean, it couldn't possibly be a politician who insists, A, that foreigners have no business interfering in British politics
2:25:37
and B, who's just transferred five million quid secretly from a businessman because why
2:25:42
on earth would he be dancing for coins? Oh, oh it is
2:25:46
Yeah, Nigel Farage, 83,000 pounds. And we've had a response. We had a text last week suggesting I was frightened of talking to him
2:25:54
So I issue as I do regularly on the programme my open invitation to him to join me in the
2:25:59
studio and prove what a tough guy he is. And on this occasion, we have actually had a response and here it is
2:26:07
And that's it for me for another day. If you missed any of today's show
2:26:13
you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBC... Was that a sound effect, Keith
2:26:16
or did you do it yourself? Top work either way. You can stay up to date
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with all the latest news, videos and opinions. A range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Daily
2:26:24
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2:26:29
from your app store now. Coming up at four on LBC. Simon Marks, which is why he hasn't been on this show
2:26:33
is standing in for Tom Strawberry this week. So expect a return not only with him
2:26:37
to the territory we've just been exploring, but also with Sheila Fogarty
2:26:41
James O'Brien on LBC
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