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Does there need to be a Labour leadership contest? | James O’Brien - The Whole Show
Jun 24, 2026
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 23nd of June, 2026. 00:00 – Do you want a coronation or a contest? 48:45 - Nigel Farage dismisses Robert Kenyon's comments as "banter" - Carol Vorderman TITLE: Former LBC Presenter and broadcaster 02:01:52 - How much is Brexit to blame for the mess we're in? 00:00:00 - Barnier 10 years on: Brexit is a lose-lose game Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jamesobrien #politics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Good morning! It's three minutes after ten and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
0:07
Would you like a little... Oh, I'm terribly sorry. I think we're going to have to interrupt this programme
0:12
because Nigel Farage is due to make an emergency address about the conviction of the ex-DUP leader
0:19
Geoffrey Donaldson, on 18 child sexual offence. Oh no, I'm terribly sorry. He's white
0:26
so we won't be getting that emergency address after all. Just a little bit of a snafu there
0:31
in the communications here at LBC Towers. I don't imagine he will mention it at all
0:37
but for people who care about such things, a former leader of the Democratic Unionist Party
0:42
who of course propped up Theresa May's government and subsequently went into a sort of form of pact
0:48
with whatever Farage's party was called at the time showed no visible emotion yesterday
0:53
after a jury at Nuri Crown Court convicted him of rape. indecent assault and gross indecency against two victims between 1985 and 2008
1:05
I mean, one never wants to see riots or civil disobedience on our streets, ever, actually
1:14
not in the current political climate, I suppose, that if the fascists were in charge
1:19
then many people would feel they had little choice but to take up their cudgels
1:22
But to riot over crimes that had absolutely nothing to do with the people that you're trying to hurt and to say nothing or have nothing to contribute to a conversation about one of the most senior politicians in the north of Ireland being a paedophile rapist just seems a little strange and illustrative, perhaps, of the deeper, darker truth. Truth
1:45
But anyway, as I said, no emergency address from Nigel Farage. Directly going against the wishes of any of the victims' families
1:54
because on this occasion the rapist, the paedophile rapist, no less, is a very right-wing elderly white man
2:04
Two-tier outrage, perhaps. Five minutes after ten is the time. I, uh..
2:11
Can I tell you a secret? Are you interested in a little glimpse of what goes on in the murky depths of my mind
2:17
I'd like to do a phone-in towards the end of the show today that is linked to the heat
2:24
And I've just got this fond memory of once having a brilliant phone-in
2:29
about what the worst job is to do when things are getting this hot
2:34
Do you remember that, Keith? We did, didn't we? But it only happened once. It was like lightning striking once
2:39
and I think the winner was a bloke in a bell suit
2:44
Is that what they're called? Not a wetsuit, but a sort of diving suit
2:47
but the big ones. And he was welding something underwater. I don't... I mean, my memory's not what it was
2:55
He was welding... Because the obvious answer, I think, is insulating roofs
3:00
If you're in an attic today putting down insulation, do you know that there are laws governing the temperatures
3:05
at which cattle can be transported by roads, but there are no laws governing the temperature in the classroom
3:12
that your children may be compelled to attend today. Many schools, of course, are closing
3:20
But I just... Anyway, I'm just giving you a heads up on that because I really want to have a crack at it
3:24
towards the end of the programme. Something linked to the heat. But I've got a feeling it only really worked once, that top..
3:31
Well, maybe it wasn't hot enough all the other times we did it. Maybe it needs to be really, really hot
3:37
for me to get you to focus your mind on the question of how hot it is
3:44
I'm going to pepper today's programme because it is a wonderful day
3:48
Keith, do we have any rousing music? Perhaps the Ode to Joy. That seems to be topical at the moment
3:53
Do you know the bloke that was playing the Ode to Joy yesterday, Steve Bray, blamed it on me
3:59
Listen, I try not to be too self-referential. I don't often succeed, but I do try
4:03
I get blamed for everything in this country. I get blamed for Brexit being bad. I get blamed for the music playing out in Downing Street yesterday
4:12
Well, Kirsten, he literally blamed it on me by name. Eleanor couldn't wait to tell me when I got into work this morning
4:17
All bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, getting ready to sit down with Michel Barnier, former French Prime Minister and Brexit negotiator
4:23
for a quick chat. I invited him to my Brexit party. He's the only one that turned up
4:27
And that was because he didn't understand the invitation. I don't know where all the parties are
4:31
I thought we would be having street parties today. I thought the breakfast show would be sort of broadcasting live from Sunderland or something like that
4:38
Where's all the celebrations for Brexit now that we can all agree that it's all going so brilliantly
4:43
Absolutely nothing. Damp squibs galore. So I'm going to pepper today's programme with some of the best calls I took in the years immediately after Brexit
4:53
Because someone's got to celebrate, right? Someone's got to have a party
4:58
Where's Jamie Vardy when you need him? And I've only got five on my list
5:01
uh eleanor's not very pleased with me for suggesting that we may not have the best ones
5:06
on our list they may be the best ones i can't remember what was going on in 2016 any more than
5:11
you can but if you've got any special requests for the classic call to this program from some
5:17
furiously hard of thinking brexit supporter because the poor souls don't ring me anymore
5:22
i miss you guys i miss you guys we should get the band back together seriously ring me up tell me
5:28
about all those laws that you can't wait not to have to
5:32
obey anymore. Tell me about all the exciting improvements to your life
5:36
Just give me a... Why don't you ring any... You never write, you never phone
5:41
Oh, shush. Anyway, if you've got a particular favourite that you'd like to nominate
5:46
then you can do so by texting 84850 or whatsapping 03456060973. It would help if you could give us
5:54
a date, but that's probably quite a big ask. We should be able to find it, shouldn't we
5:59
Just with a few details, like the thing that you remember most about it. 03456... No, hang on. That's the WhatsApp, anyway
6:06
That's the WhatsApp. Few people claiming they can beat the loft insulation guys
6:12
if we were to turn our attention later to the programme to the question of who's got the worst job today
6:17
So, I'm not doing that thing where I am reluctant to talk about
6:21
what I've decided we have to talk about in the first hour of the programme, so I go around the houses before I actually get there
6:27
The weirdest thing, or one of the weirdest things about this job
6:32
was, is, always will be, the fact that I get excited about the news
6:39
Even when it's news that in my unprofessional life, in my civilian life, in my family life
6:46
I find very dispiriting. Even on days like this, ten years ago
6:51
when the referendum result was in or imminent, I couldn't wait to get to work to talk to you
6:56
If somebody obviously terrible becomes Prime Minister like Boris Johnson, I can't wait to get to work
7:02
I know this is crushingly disappointing for anybody who sort of messages me on mornings like that
7:10
to say, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, I'm drinking your salty tears. And yes, you know, I'll be very sad off air
7:16
Of course I will, but on air, there are no better days than days when the news is big and the news is juicy
7:22
and that is what we do together I think in some ways Those are the most memorable times that we spend together And this is one of those times I just I not entirely sure that it feels like it at the moment I not entirely sure that
7:41
it feels like a momentous moment in UK political history. And yet it is. Someone told me a story
7:50
yesterday. I can't tell you where I was yesterday because you wouldn't believe me. But somebody
7:54
told me a story yesterday about, and I've forgotten it, unfortunately. It was about
8:02
the number of Prime Ministers we had before the invention of the smartphone versus
8:08
the number of Prime Ministers we have had after the invention of the smartphone. The problem
8:13
is I can't remember what the starting line was. Do you see what I mean? I can't remember where
8:16
you count from. And there is an extraordinary gulf between the number of years
8:22
prior to us having smartphones and the number of prime ministers we had in that period
8:28
and the number of prime ministers that we had after the invention of the smartphone
8:34
And it did sort of occur to me that perhaps we are becoming fatigued with the flux
8:44
We have, and I have to be careful how I say this, I certainly have to make sure I've got my teeth in
8:48
we are all perhaps suffering from flux fatigue. my first band was no stop it flux fatigue i.e what feels extraordinary when it happens very rarely
9:02
does not feel extraordinary when it happens very often i mean there's an ineluctable logic to that
9:09
isn't there there's an utter inevitability to that even if it's like a volcano erupting
9:13
if it erupts every other tuesday it's going to be a lot less momentous than if it erupts once
9:17
every hundred years. So, we established yesterday that, um, what's his chops
9:23
Ted Heath was the last Prime Minister to both enter and leave Downing Street
9:28
as a consequence of a general election. And that's mad because he entered
9:35
Downing Street in 1970 and left in 1974. Every Prime Minister subsequently
9:41
has either arrived as a consequence of an internal battle or a transition of power
9:51
or left as a consequence of an internal battle or a transition of power
9:56
I don't even think we've got any deaths on that list, have we, of prime ministers that passed away in office
10:01
Not since 1970, obviously. So they have either resigned, as Keir Starmer did yesterday
10:08
or they have always resigned, or they entered as a consequence of their predecessor's resignation
10:15
So you might have thought John Major was on that list, but he's not, because John Major entered Parliament, entered Downing Street as a consequence of Margaret Thatcher's resignation
10:23
He then went on to both win and lose a general election. But that's not the measure. That's not the metric
10:28
The metric is, very simply, that he both entered, or she both entered and left Downing Street as a consequence of a general election
10:38
And it put me off my stride a bit yesterday when we worked that out
10:41
because it sort of made me think, well, perhaps things aren't that extraordinary
10:47
but of course they are because of that other little nugget that I shared with you
10:52
the idea that if you were born on the right day in 1979, you could reach your 11th birthday
10:57
having only known one prime minister, whereas if you were born on the right day in 2006
11:03
you could reach your 11th birthday having known seven by the time Burnham takes up, or whoever
11:09
because that's actually the first phone-in we're going to have, although you'd have done very well to have worked that out for yourself so far
11:15
It's not as if it's quarter past ten already or anything, and I haven't even told you what the phone in is
11:19
That would be absolutely remiss and profoundly unprofessional. And that's the point, is that, yes, OK, the door may revolve
11:28
but it revolves incredibly slowly. Prime Ministers may be replaced at the whim of their own party
11:34
as opposed to the electorate, but it happens prior to 2016, certainly prior to 2019, it happens quite rarely
11:42
It is a moment, it is, if you like, a man-bites-dog moment of politics
11:48
And I just wonder whether it is becoming a little bit dog-bites-man
11:57
That's not the phone, well, I don't think that's the phone-in. It's just not extraordinary anymore
12:04
It's not remarkable. I watch political journalists almost craving it, responding to it almost like a fix to which they have become addicted during the Brexit years, which I suppose technically we're still in
12:16
Although the kind of people that used to use the phrase Trump derangement syndrome, thinking that it was funny and clever, are probably still insisting that we shouldn't be talking about Brexit anymore, even though it's the most significant reason, I think, for almost all of our ills and the ones that it didn't cause
12:31
It certainly made worse, as any fool know. but you have to reflect upon the amount of time that passed between prime ministers
12:40
not upon the fact that being removed is almost always or more often than not
12:46
is a consequence of resignation rather than electoral defeat it's the speed with which the door revolves now
12:52
it's the speed with which the door revolves that I find dispiriting, and with which I think I may have become fatigued. I don't think it's Andy Burnham's
13:06
fault that I'm not feeling that frisson of engagement that I would expect to feel on a
13:11
morning like this, coming on air the day after a prime ministerial resignation, having a look
13:16
running the rule over what is likely to happen next. That's really exciting, usually. It's really
13:24
exciting usually. Is it because we're all a bit hot? Is it because the football's on
13:29
Is it because we were kind of expecting last week on people
13:32
who actually bother putting together programmes ahead of schedule which to be honest isn't our greatest strength
13:38
on this programme but we did today. We got some calls ready. We thought we'd be talking
13:42
about Brexit. I sat down for a croissant with Michel Barnier earlier
13:46
and had a fast... What a dignified man he is. I wonder what our equivalent would be
13:51
Hard to think really. is it just me? do you have a touch of flux fatigue as well
14:00
anyway the question is this I tried to ask you this yesterday
14:04
but I don't really think you were in the mood the simple question
14:08
really of whether or not or what you want the idea of Burnham being installed
14:15
without challenge there's not going to be a general election fair play, everybody can call for one
14:20
everybody else called for one when Johnson was handing over to Truss
14:24
and when Truss was handing over to Sue. Now, it's what you do. When the other lot resign
14:29
you call for a general election, but no one ever calls one. No one ever really expects one
14:33
No one did it. Gordon Brown didn't do it, and he probably should have done. Liz Truss didn't do it
14:38
and she almost certainly wouldn't have done, even if she'd lasted more than five minutes
14:42
So we hand over power, a succession, a peaceful passage of power
14:48
And this is a question of national interest. So, I want you to take your scarf off, alright
14:54
I don think that if you going to answer this question in the style of a Baden or a Farage I don think it very interesting to anybody Because of course you were not clamouring for general elections when it was your lot that were just essentially handing over the car keys to somebody else
15:10
whether there'd been a leadership battle or not. We mentioned it. May gave the keys to Johnson, who didn't call an election
15:17
Johnson gave the keys to Truss, who didn't call an election. Truss gave the keys to Sunak, who didn't call an election
15:22
and Starmer is giving the keys to either Burnham or somebody else
15:26
without calling an election. So you see what I mean about footballification. If you take your scarf off, you can see that all very, very clearly
15:33
and you can state it. There will be tweets galore from Labour figures
15:37
demanding that there's a general election when Trust took over from Johnson or when Sunak took over from Trust
15:42
But they all know it's not going to happen. And to be honest, I think it's probably poor journalism
15:46
to pretend that you don't understand that. Everybody, I'm not going to patronise you or condestand
15:51
by pretending that I don't understand that or indeed that you're too stupid to understand it yourself
15:57
I will leave the belief that you're stupid to people like Mr Farage
16:03
What do you want? And this is a really important question. This is where my flux fatigue will be abating
16:13
because you will say something thoughtful and intelligent to me and it will get my little grey cells whirring
16:19
and I will start thinking about it in a way that reminds me
16:23
why I find these moments exciting. Do you see what I mean? So in a way, after all the years that I've come to your rescue
16:29
at 10 o'clock in the morning and managed to invest you and inject you with a frisson of excitement
16:35
at the current affairs smorgasbord being laid out before us, today I'm asking you in a way to do it for me
16:42
to make this question really, really interesting because it is important and what is important should be interesting
16:50
and when the important is not interesting it's the fault of the observer
16:55
it's my fault that I'm not more excited by this question and I want you to both be excited by it
17:01
and I want you and please don't clip this up inappropriately I want you to excite me
17:06
it feels wrong something about it feels at this point in proceedings a bit wrong
17:14
the idea that Andy Burnham becomes prime minister unchallenged despite not even having been in
17:22
parliament until two o'clock half past two yesterday something about that feels a bit
17:29
rum to me I could be wrong but I'm being honest and as I read about the possibility of some
17:39
senior figures throwing their hat into the ring. I find myself, and forgive me for this
17:44
because I'm not even joking, I find myself 52%, 48% thinking I wish they would
17:50
I hope they do. I would like to see some sort of contest
17:53
because I would like to see the stalls set out. And even if Burnham were to romp home
17:59
I would then have a little bit more knowledge of some of the other players in his party
18:04
some of the other runners and riders about whom I don't currently know an awful lot
18:08
like, for example, Darren Jones, who I understand has not ruled out a challenge
18:13
like, for example, Al Carnes, who is, it is reported this morning
18:17
weighing up whether to run. I wouldn't mind seeing Angela Rayner have a crack, but I think that's probably unlikely
18:23
As you know, I'm a big admirer of Dan Jarvis. So 03456060973 is the number you need to tell me
18:32
And remember, there's an argument for saying, no, God, no, no, no, no, let's have a coronation
18:36
The last thing we need is to air our dirty laundry in public or to invite into Nissan warfare
18:43
So what is your reason for wanting or not wanting a coronation
18:51
Coronation or contest? 0345 6060973. And because my introduction has been a little bit round the houses
18:59
I can state with some confidence that if you hit the numbers now, you will get through
19:04
James O'Brien on LBC. 24 is the time. Peter Murrell, the estranged husband of Nicola Sturgeon
19:13
jailed this morning for five years and three months for embezzlement. The cabinet in Westminster meeting for the first time since the Prime Minister quit
19:22
Andy Burnham, clearly poised to run for leader in the coming days
19:28
But will anybody run against him? And what do you want and why
19:32
do you want a coronation or do you want a contest and i think that there are compelling reasons for
19:38
wanting both and i also think that my own opinion is probably yours for the taking if you can persuade
19:44
me of your position by 11 o'clock today but at the moment i'm 52 48 in favor of a contest
19:49
i i find myself thinking i don't know just just a sort of sense of discombobulation at the idea
19:56
of an untrammeled passage from the mayoralty of Manchester to the Prime
20:02
Ministership of the United Kingdom without really troubling the parliamentary scorers. I know he won in Makerfield, but he won in
20:10
Makerfield last week. The general election was two years ago, and he wasn't
20:14
even in it. I don't know. I don't know. As I say, 52-48. I don't know why that number's in my
20:18
mind today, but we will be celebrating Brexit. I promise, because no one else is
20:22
I don't understand. Why aren't they all having parties? Why isn't Nige getting the party poppers out
20:29
It's just bizarre. I thought they'd be doing Laps of Honour around Westminster, reminding us all of the benefits that they've accrued
20:34
and all the things they promised us that they have now delivered. So it falls to me to run the party
20:40
Keith, can we get some sound effects? Maybe some party poppers? Or just some sort of rousing music
20:47
Maybe some Morris dancing type music? That would be appropriate. But not yet, because Josephine's in Westminster
20:53
to kick off this conversation. Josephine, what would you like to say? Hi, James
20:58
So in any other situation, I would agree that we need to have a long debate about the ideas
21:02
But I think the situation is so grave with the right really trying to bring down this Labour government
21:08
that I think we need an immediate coronation. We need to get Andy in there, ideally, as soon as next week
21:13
and just hit the ground running and essentially make up for the mistakes that Keir Selmer made
21:18
and just go for it. Leavis in to absolutely just be bold and make the changes that are needed
21:26
in order to basically save this Labour government and the country from a reformed government in the future
21:34
Yeah, so he just, I mean, it doesn't... We just have to get on with it. I don't think there's time to mess about
21:38
Do you not want him to convince you that he can? Perhaps you're already convinced, of course
21:45
I am, well, I need proof from kind of, you know, I've heard him speak and I think he's great
21:52
I think he's got what it takes. And I think West Streeting has what it takes. And the fact that West has also fallen in line behind him
21:58
I think speaks very highly of him. And he also seems to have very credible economic advisors around him
22:04
So I think he's got the right people around him. And I guess I'm kind of relying on them also to steer him in the right direction
22:12
And I just don't think there's time, any time for messing about. I think the right will exploit any weakness
22:18
any time that's taken... I like that. I know that's a really strong argument
22:22
A proper sense of urgency. And he just has to get in and get on with it I mean this is the perfect antidote to flux fatigue isn it In that you are communicating a genuine sense of urgency
22:35
And I worry sometimes that those of us who pontificate professionally can get a little bit lazy in our thinking
22:43
and sort of forget that we're talking about the fate of a country as opposed to a news story, as opposed to a topic for a phone-in show
22:51
Yes, you clearly do. I feel so passionately that this country has a chance and that we really can make a difference and make a change to people's lives
22:58
And I feel like Andy knows. He has young children as well. And I think he also has that visceral sense of urgency and need to make a change
23:06
And whether that's electoral reform, I think he's been discussing that. But we really need bold changes, move much closer to Europe, eventually rejoin Europe
23:15
We know what has to be done. And, you know, we really need to start just absolutely getting on with it
23:20
and thinking about the future in terms of AI, how our economy deals with that
23:25
how we navigate this path between the US and China. There are so many issues that we need to tackle
23:31
and we're just wasting time yet again with kind of like pointless political debate
23:38
Because the priorities are clear and what they want is urgent. I like your..
23:44
Well, I mean, yeah, there goes my pendulum. I don't know how long it'll stay swinging in that direction
23:49
One little problem would... And it doesn't matter that he hasn't provided a long list
23:53
of what he's going to do differently from Starmer, because Starmer's great flaw, his hamartia in many ways
23:58
was perception. It was how he conducted himself. And that's desperately unfair, but that's the world in which we live
24:07
I'm reminded, I think it was Harold Wilson, this might be apocryphal, but when television became a major player in politics
24:14
which is within living memory, incredibly, we were talking about smartphones a minute ago
24:18
So Harold Wilson would be delivering a speech at the, I don't know, the workshop, Working Men's Club or something like that
24:25
And the cameras would be there and everything I think was live in those days. And the camera, and he'd break off in the middle of the speech to deliver a prepared paragraph for the news, for the news
24:38
And when he did that, he'd clamp his pipe in his mouth. I remember reading when I was studying for my A-level because that was the image that he sought to project to the viewers
24:47
and that's optics, that's spin and unfortunately for Starmer and it is horribly unfair, but it's also true
24:54
Andy Burnham could turn up with exactly the same agenda and just do a better job of selling it
25:00
and I think many people would be relieved although, like Josephine, I'd rather he did a little more than that
25:05
Here's Dominic Ellis with your headlines James O'Brien on LBC 33 is the time
25:11
Coronation or contest? I don't normally like voting that lend themselves to pithy little one-liners
25:17
but cometh the hour, cometh the man. And speaking of pithy little one-liners
25:22
I can feel my flux fatigue dissipating as we speak. I knew this would happen
25:26
Maybe it's because I'm responding to the heat a little bit. Oh, the thunder. I don't know how you slept last night
25:30
but the thunder was incredible. Our little dog. Oh, dear. I mean, our little dog was in pieces
25:36
Have you ever had a small dog shake with fear? I mean, is spasmodic the right word
25:43
I know we use spasmodic to describe the passage of time, but they were like spasms the poor little thing was having
25:50
Unfortunately, the place that the little dog decided was safest in the house during the thunderstorm last night
25:57
was on my head. Literally on my head. So, I mean, imagine my head on a pillow, if you dare
26:06
and then imagine the dog sitting on the bit of the pillow that was not covered by my head
26:12
but above my head, even though I was lying down. You see what I mean? So that's where the dog settled last night
26:18
Never done it before. Hopefully we'll never do it again. A mark, perhaps, of how serious that thunderstorm was
26:23
So maybe my flux fatigue was down to just genuine fatigue because I spent most of last night with a dog on my head
26:30
There's something else I'd rather you didn't clip out of context. 10.34 is the time
26:35
Sue is in Glossop. Sue, what would you like to say? Good morning
26:39
Hello, Sue. So, my theory is, And I do understand why people feel like there should be a bit more of a process to... Hmm
26:48
...inevitable entry as Prime Minister. But I think it's possibly a bit of a north-south thing
26:53
I think if you ask people in the north what they felt about it, they would probably say, just get him in, because we know the man fairly well
27:01
Do you feel that? Yeah, absolutely. I don't even live in Manchester
27:05
I'm just on the outskirts. Yes, I know Glossop. I used to live in Birch Vale. Oh, did you
27:09
Yeah, many years ago. My God. Small world, isn't it? Tiny little place, Berkshvale
27:14
Tiny little place. Berkshvale is tiny. Gorshap's quite big now. I know it is. Obviously not in terms of the south
27:20
Of course. Fairly big. It's a pretty big town. They're building constantly
27:25
Anyway, off topic. Yeah, I suspect that you might get a different response in the north to that question
27:32
Because we know what he's done for Manchester. He's been very, very good for Manchester
27:37
we know him to be decent and honest I mean I'm not saying that Keir Starmer
27:43
wasn't those things I feel badly No but that ship has sailed and you know we can
27:49
worry forever about what was fair and what was not fair but the ship has sailed and we have to look at
27:55
the waters ahead of us I had a funny thought yesterday I was talking about this on the Quiet Riot
28:01
podcast which I heartily recommend to people who enjoy this show I think they'd enjoy that podcast
28:07
and I was chatting about unexpectedly I was booked for it before we knew
28:11
Starmer was going to resign on the Monday but I'm thinking about change
28:15
soon and I think that I personally have changed enormously over the course
28:21
of the last 10 years as a consequence of all manner of things most
28:25
importantly probably being a parent to teenagers and having quite a lot of therapy
28:29
and there'll be a lot of people who have not had that personal exposure
28:33
to Andy Burnham, as you point out, a north-south thing, who probably want to believe that Andy Burnham has changed a lot
28:39
since he lost leadership elections to both Ed Miliband and, shortly afterwards, Jeremy Corbyn
28:46
But he's done a sterling job in Manchester. He really, really has
28:50
What do you think he's learned? Um, I don't know. I don't know what he's learned
28:58
I don't know. I don't know. I just think he's shown himself to be in a very public office
29:05
to be a very decent, honest, hard-working human being. We know him to be that because we see him doing it all the time
29:15
What was going on in his political life before all of that, I can't really comment on because, you know, he was never on my radar
29:23
I know him as mayor of Greater Manchester, and I know that he's done a good job
29:27
Also, he did amazing work for the Hillsborough families. You know? Yes, that's true
29:33
He's done good work in his time in public office. I know that was when he was an MP
29:38
It wasn't when he was mayor. But he's done incredible things. And I think that he's a good human being
29:45
And I think because we're familiar with him, and we know him, and we know what he's like
29:51
My husband has met him several times in the course of his work. Not that he does anything spectacular
29:56
He says he's a decent person. decent bloke. And he engenders confidence in people. Absolutely
30:03
In a way that, I mean, 20-20 hindsight is a wonderful thing, but it's hard to imagine anybody
30:08
being a really passionate member of the Keir Starmer fan club. I know some people
30:14
have become that way subsequently because they respond emotionally to an underdog getting a kicking and that's
30:20
a nice response. It's a human, it's an empathetic response. But it would be hard
30:24
to sort of dance around a maypole. I remember we were talking about Keir Starmer, we were saying he's like
30:29
the John Major of the Liberal Party. Yeah, although John Major won
30:34
He did win in that election against Neil Kinnock, and I wonder whether we will look back and think
30:39
we probably should have let Keir Starmer have a go at winning another one. Yeah, I think you might be onto something
30:43
although Josephine in Westminster opened the batting this morning. You can't get much more Southern than that
30:49
I don't mean geographically, I mean politically. Westminster and Glossop both making strong cases
30:55
for Andy Burnham being installed. sine, what's the Latin word for battle
31:00
Sine bellum. Is that right? The money my parents spent on my education
31:05
Keith says that's right. Keith's got the Latin. Geraint is in Chester
31:09
Geraint, what would you like to say? Geraint. Yeah, hi, James. Hello. Geraint, yeah
31:13
I mean, I'm from the Northwest as well, so it's where I live
31:18
So, and, you know, he's not my king of the North. So it's, as far as I'm the complete opposite
31:25
I think there should be a leadership contest. because, well, we need to, well, first of all, he's already lost two
31:32
So I think, you know, just handing on a plate the prime ministership of a country to a twice guy that's lost
31:40
is a bit wrong anyway. But you need to know what he stands for. You need to get the best out from the individual contenders
31:48
to see why you feel that they would be best for running the country. And to use another example, you only have to look at America
31:55
what happened over there. Biden stayed in too long, they finally got rid of him
31:59
and then they just did a coronation, and it ended in a disaster with Donald Trump in power
32:04
You need to have... That doesn't work. I mean, everybody would agree that the mistake that they made
32:08
was not doing it soon enough. Exactly. So now they're doing it really quickly
32:15
No, they don't have to do it really quickly. They just need to have a leadership contest
32:18
to see if he is the best man in the party that's currently in government to do it
32:25
well that's a good question i mean you mentioned dan jarvis al khan's i mean i honestly think
32:31
well you know that's not going to happen because he's already said so so i mean who would you like
32:37
to see in it well dan jarvis i don't think he's not made any signs of of wanting to run so far
32:43
and it has to be i mean i understand the point that you're making i think it's pretty weak but
32:48
i do understand it it would need to be to work your point it would need a substantive candidate
32:55
wouldn't it? It would need someone who would deliver all of the things that you want. And those things would be meaningful differences with Andy Burnham
33:02
and at least comparable levels of popularity in both the parliamentary party and beyond
33:09
And, of course, that extraordinary result in Makerfield, not the win, but the scale of the win, which took absolutely everybody by surprise
33:18
Let me come back on that. Of course. Well, those were specific sets of circumstances
33:23
I mean, it's like you saying that the Tories win in Aberdeen is suddenly going to propel them back into power
33:28
Well, no, it's nothing like that at all, unless 650 constituencies suddenly start drilling for oil tomorrow
33:34
So that's, again, respectfully, that's a ridiculous comparison. I don't think so, but..
33:39
Well, remind me the name of the Tory candidate in Aberdeen. I couldn't tell you
33:44
No, well, that's one reason why it's a ridiculous comparison, isn't it? Because Andy Burnham is poised to become Prime Minister
33:50
So comparing that by-election to the one in Aberdeen when you can't even remember the name of the candidate
33:54
is obviously silly. All right, then. Well, in terms of other things
33:58
A, I mean, he was up against a reform candidate who, let's be honest, was begging to lose
34:05
from all the sexist comments he was making. Like, there's no way, you know, and all the other parties were pretty much non-existent
34:12
It was almost, I wouldn't say it was tactical voting, but it was close enough
34:17
I mean, personally, it's more the sense of entitlement. Like, this is his, he should have this
34:23
I just don't like that. I do think, I personally just think there should be a contest
34:28
Now, maybe I'm not giving the most cogent argument why there should be
34:32
That's all right. We like vibes. I mean, it's always fun to establish whether they are vibes
34:37
or whether they are cogent arguments. But, you know, I was 48 before this phone-in started
34:43
Two people have rung in saying we should have a coronation, and I moved up to about 60
34:47
Someone's rung in to say we shouldn't. and I've moved up to 75
34:51
So well done on that front, at least, Geraint. It's 10.43. Anthony's in Dartford
34:55
Anthony, what would you like to say? Hello, buddy. Yeah, thanks for taking my call
35:00
Yeah, I think Andy Burnham. Put him in straight away. If there's a leadership contest
35:04
if Labour want a leadership contest, they can have a leadership contest. I think Labour has spoken
35:09
I think the people in Manchester, the London and the North have spoken. I think the nation needs to see something
35:17
Just get on with it, is kind of what I'm hearing. Exactly. Just, look, we've had five
35:22
what, we had five prime ministers, didn't we? Six. And six. Five under the Tories, sorry, yeah
35:27
Five under the Tories, yeah. Five under the Tories, okay. And non-stop leadership
35:33
I did try and go through it in my head before I ran into it. I have to. Which one do you forget
35:38
Which one do you forget usually? Do you know what? I mean, it's really trust, isn't it
35:43
Yeah, I think I forget May sometimes. I forget Theresa May sometimes
35:46
Oh, no, but don't worry. She was running through the wheat fields
35:50
Don't forget that. Yes, of course she was. In her rebellious days. That brings her back into memory. And you don't have any worries about not seeing the stores being set out
35:59
I mean, if you don't know roughly what Andy Burnham stands for at this point in proceedings
36:03
then probably it's your own fault. Yeah, I think so. And, I mean, I live down south
36:10
My cousin lives up north, you know. Okay. And he lives in Manchester
36:14
he thinks Andy Burnham's been great in terms of like, has Andy Burnham
36:20
got the parliamentary experience of being in the houses of Parliament? No
36:24
Well, he kind of has, really. It's just it was a wine ago. Well, he was the advisor to Jeremy Corbyn
36:30
so he has, which means a lot of the Labour Party have got a lot of knowledge about Andy
36:34
Okay? Also, being a mayor, a mayor of a specialty like the size of Manchester, you know, you get all your
36:41
budgets set down to you by central London and by Parliament. He's well aware of what he can do with what
36:47
He's well aware of parliamentary procedure. You know, this isn't... I think he's got a lovely smile
36:52
I think he... Put that on a T-shirt. Do you know... I do know..
36:58
Listen, I couldn't believe... I couldn't believe what came out of my mouth
37:03
Off air, about three months ago, and Eleanor reminded me of it
37:07
and I said it on air. I think having a Northern accent matters. I just think it does at this stage in our politics
37:12
And I think actually it should. I think the North has felt abandoned by Westminster for long enough
37:18
And Andy Burnham brings that absolutely into focus. And if he got a nice smile as well then you know the job is as they say a good one Thank you Anthony So there we go I mean listen feel free to have a crack at justifying or arguing for a contest but there are questions aren there that have to be answered if you going to do that
37:37
Who would be the candidates, and why would you want them to have..
37:41
Because I suppose it's not the fault of people in favour of a contest. You probably can't tell me a great deal about Al Karnes
37:48
other than the fact that he was in the Royal Marines, I think
37:52
I get a little bit confused. one of them was a paratrooper
37:55
and one of them was in the Royal Marines I think Al Kahn's might have been in both actually but he was certainly in the special boat service
38:01
wasn't he? Anyway, military service shall we say but other than that
38:06
I don't know how much you can tell me about that Darren Jones either
38:09
except he's a very very good media performer and that matters as well
38:14
you know if you find yourself in a studio and somebody wants to know how many Rice Krispies there are
38:19
in a box of Rice Krispies you have to treat them with just the right mix
38:23
of contempt and amusement that people wasting their opportunity with a senior politician in such a way deserve
38:29
And Darren Jones has been very good at that. But it's not time. I get this sense of the specifics of the circumstances
38:36
and that idea of, come on, this is serious, get on with it
38:42
It's probably winning at the moment, but feel free to turn that tide after this
38:46
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10.49. And you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
38:54
where the question of whether or not you want a contest or a coronation
38:59
is close to a consensus, in that there isn't a particular appetite
39:04
in Chester notwithstanding. And also the same pretty much on my inbox
39:08
There's quite a lot of sort of continuity Starmer, and I feel that. I fully get how bruised you feel about the way that Keir Starmer has been treated
39:15
But it doesn't constitute an answer to the question of whether or not you want to see Andy Burnham
39:20
enter Downing Street unchallenged by other members of his party. The two names that are in the frame
39:26
currently are Darren Jones and Al Carnes, neither of whom strike me as a David Cameron figure
39:33
If you were to go back 14 years was it or thereabouts
39:39
No longer than that. Nearly 20 years perhaps. When David Davis was
39:45
poised to become Conservative leader. He had been sort of anointed by the right-wing press, although Michael Howard, who was the incumbent, who had announced a relatively long period of transition so that the party could get ready to fight the next election, which it did so successfully, of course
40:06
Michael Howard was very much preparing Cameron and Osborne to take over from him with people like Gove, part of the project, and Daniel, now Lord Finkelstein, very much
40:17
in the room where it happened. But it was just a conference. It was a party conference
40:22
where Cameron delivered a decent speech and David Davis was less impressive
40:26
and the pendulum swung. The momentum shifted from the favourite to the outsider
40:30
the relative unknown. And the relative unknown came forward and took the prize
40:34
But being in opposition two or three years out from a general election is very, very different
40:39
to being in power two years out from the last general election
40:43
and two or three years out from the next one. So I do find this argument for urgency
40:48
Right, get on with it. Strap in and get on with it. And then the only reservation I have is that his performance last time he was in Westminster was not incredible or exciting or certainly exceptional
41:09
But people change and a different skill set is required. And there isn't any other choice there
41:14
If Dan Jarvis said, yeah, I'll have a go, personally, my ears would prick up
41:20
But, I mean, that's just me. I don't know how many other people would even recognise the name
41:24
1052 is the time Mo is in Birmingham. Mo, what do you reckon? Hello, James. Thanks for taking my call
41:29
You're very welcome. I think it's really important for the Labour Party to actually have a formal contest
41:36
and one that is competitive in ideas and in debate. I think, look, Andy Burnham
41:43
if he is going to be a PM needs to make a lot of important
41:47
and potentially controversial policy decisions over the next few years and we don't want a situation
41:53
where his would-be opponents who have been carried into silence after a non-contest this time round
41:59
start to silently breathe to say, you know what he was foisted upon us
42:04
we put our false smiles out and our false platitudes out but we actually disagree with the man
42:10
We don't like this policy. And we get into the situation come 2028
42:14
where, you know what, he's 10 points behind Nigel Farage in the polls
42:19
and the Labour Party's in a mad panic. I don't... I mean, surely, if Burnham was doing really badly
42:27
then the briefing would happen anyway, whether he'd won a leadership election or not
42:31
I think the would-be opponent needs to hear the word I've lost in a leadership contest
42:38
either from the fact that he doesn't have enough parliamentary support or the members reject him and so on
42:44
That's a very powerful mandate. Yeah. And the fact that you know you've lost
42:49
because, you know, politicians are politicians. You know, we see it with Kemi Baden-Ock every week
42:55
She's the greatest politician ever who never makes a mistake. Okay. As a politician, defeat is only certain
43:03
when it's active up. Then, I mean, the most obvious contender would be Wes Streeting and he's announced he's not going to do it
43:12
So who would fit the bill you describe? Who are the people that would need to hear, in their own internal dialogue
43:19
they would need to hear the words, I lost? Well, that's where my argument slightly goes
43:26
God bless your honesty. Because he's the only one who you could look at conceivably..
43:34
probably sits on a different wing of the party. I didn't think he'd sit it out
43:39
I made an informal prediction yesterday, not one of my formal predictions
43:45
because they're the ones that always come true, but an informal prediction that West Streeting would not sit this out
43:50
and then within 10 minutes he put out a statement saying that he would be sitting this one out
43:54
He would be offering his support to Andy Burnham, and that changed everything for me. Yeah, my opinion on that is that I don't think he had the 81 names
44:01
okay okay i think he probably that's my own personal opinion and i think he he's look he's
44:10
an intelligent guy he knows that he doesn't want to go into a leadership contest let's say even even
44:15
he gets the 81 names he doesn't want to go up on that day in september or whenever else when they
44:20
announce the results and he finds out he gets five or ten percent of the membership and the trade
44:25
union vote yeah i mean yeah you're as you as you concede it's not it's not um watertight this
44:30
argument because of the personnel involved but it's certainly thought-provoking. Do you want to produce
44:36
the next bit of the programme? No, there's another. I think there's one other
44:40
thing here. Hang on, that's a genuine question. Shall I take another call or shall I
44:44
play out one of the Brexit greats? One of the great top, top calls from the
44:48
Brexit years? Because it's the celebration today. No one else is celebrating so we're having to do it ourselves
44:53
Unless I've missed it, I think it good to have one of those nostalgic moments Okay well there you go Mo in charge Here Robert in Rochester on the 17th of December 2018 And this at the moment is the one that you
45:05
I think more people have voted for this than any other. And it was already on our list. So maybe I'm going to owe Eleanor an apology by one o'clock today
45:13
I actually think in order to negotiate the issue... Who's that shouting in the background
45:21
It's my mum. OK. To apologise. That's all right. It kind of goes with the territory for people who call themselves Brexit-eers, doesn't it
45:30
Yes. So, basically, in order to negotiate with those people who want the second referendum
45:37
I think we make it more democratic by introducing a PR election at the same time
45:44
Right, yes. So we change our entire electoral system by the end of March
45:49
Well, you know, it's not going to happen, but, you know, it's... What do you think you won, Robert
45:53
But what I would like is. No, what do you think you want
45:57
What I want is basically our whole governance or the way that the wealth controls our country
46:07
No, no, no. What do you think? What do you think you want? Well, I'm just about to explain that
46:12
I want. No, not want. One. W-O-N. What do you think you want
46:18
A slap in the government's face to show them that they... That government's gone
46:25
So what did you win? Well, that government is a reform of the continuous politicians
46:31
that are put forward instead of actually giving people... Let's have one more go
46:37
Take a little pause and tell me what you think you won. What I won
46:43
Yeah. I won a vote to leave the EU. No, I know that bit, but what did you win
46:50
What was the prize? To actually undress our politicians, if that's a better way to actually put it
46:56
It's even worse, incredibly. You almost deserve credit for that. So what you won, to undress our politicians
47:03
And who's going to be in charge of Brexit? Well, the way that they're dealing with Brexit
47:10
is not something I agree with, because, quite frankly, I would be..
47:14
But now we're back to silly rhetoric, aren't we, and ludicrous claims
47:18
In terms of measurable, tangible benefits, what did you win? What did I win
47:25
I won a deregulated country. What does that mean? It can deregulate itself
47:31
It means that we can strip away from the EU laws that we don't like
47:36
For example? Well, for me, one of the ones is the plug system
47:43
Pardon? I know it's not very hugely, but we obviously use three-pin plugs in this country
47:50
Yes. The EU don't. And so basically it means that our safety aspects are a lot stronger than the generalisation of the EU
48:01
But we're in the EU. Rather than going... Pardon? We're in the EU. So you think we have to leave the EU to get three-pin plugs
48:08
No. It's about going back to some of the things where we are stronger at
48:13
Yeah, go on, talk me through the plugs thing. So what can we do now with plugs that we can't do as members
48:20
Well, we can still do it, but the manufacturers... So what did you win then
48:26
Compliancy to British law. Compliancy to British law? Yes. Right. So when you bring something into this country, it has to comply to the UK
48:38
That's what happens already. That's why we've got three-pin plugs, you see, and they haven't
48:42
Because they use plastic rather than metal. The EU sets the base level above which we are all free to go
48:50
as the fact that we have gone proves. Mate, just pause for a minute and think about what you've just done
48:57
You've come live on national radio. You've described yourself as a Brexiteer
49:01
You're getting told off by your mum in the background. And when I've asked you what you think you've won
49:06
you've said the right to have three pin plugs that we already have. and it's half past ten on Monday morning mate
49:14
James O'Brien on LBC OK look that was an old clip from two and a half years after the Brexit vote
49:23
when Robert in Rochester was somehow I don't even know anymore convinced that we would not have the three pin plugs
49:29
that we did have if we hadn't voted to leave the European Union and I took that call at half past ten on a Monday morning
49:35
specifically the 17th of December 2018 I didn't realise when I played you the clip
49:41
that that would be the end of the call and I would announce that it was half past ten on a Monday morning
49:46
and of course it was 11 o'clock on a Tuesday morning. So I hope that didn't cause any confusion
49:51
I can see from my inbox that some people thought that was happening in real time but I've said it before and I'll say it again
49:55
those people don't ring me anymore. And it's very sad. Actually, that's not true
50:01
They ring me all the time with brilliant arguments to prove that Brexit has gone superbly
50:05
but we vet our calls so assiduously We've got extraordinary software here that we can tell immediately whether someone is much cleverer than me
50:14
and they're going to knock me into a cocked hat with brilliant Brexit benefits
50:19
and I'm so frightened of them that we never let those people on air
50:23
That is the gospel according to social media. But, of course, you are free to believe whatever you want
50:30
including, of course, the claim that Keir Starmer's house was set on fire
50:36
by male prostitutes whose bills he hadn't paid. I can't get past that and the evidence it provides
50:43
of how utterly boiled this country has become. Five minutes after 11 is the time
50:49
Nigel Farage in our news bulletin. You know, when he took that five minutes, I can't believe no one else has pointed this out
50:55
when he says, I wasn't in politics. He said, oh, no, I fully accept it. He literally owned Reform UK
51:02
I'm going to say that again, because as is often the case with Farage, I find it extraordinary how little people know about stuff that is in the public domain
51:11
He literally owned Reform UK until February of 2025. Set it up in 2018 as a private limited company with Farage holding the majority of shares
51:26
so he owned it when he took five million quid from christopher harbourn in secret
51:34
he owned a political party he owned a british political party when he took a secret five
51:41
million quid from a thai-based billionaire set to benefit from policies that farage announced
51:48
shortly after taking five million quid from a thai-based billionaire so please just send a
51:55
postcard to your favourite interviewers and tell them that the next time
52:00
he says, I wasn't in politics at the time, they have to come back and say
52:04
otherwise they not only sound ridiculous but betray all of their viewers and
52:08
listeners, you have to come back and say, well, you did actually own the party
52:13
Mr Farage, you literally owned the party. You owned a majority of shares
52:20
in a private limited company called Reform UK So how can you possibly claim you weren in frontline politics You can you say wouldn you normally you can get further into frontline politics than being the leader of a party And he wasn the leader of a party It turns out you can
52:37
You can get further into politics than being the leader of a party
52:41
You can actually own it. You can own the party while secretly taking five million pounds from a Thai-based crypto billionaire
52:51
who subsequently would benefit from policies you announced after taking the £5 million secretly from a crypto billionaire
53:00
And pity the newsreaders who can't keep up. What's the current story
53:04
That he got it for his security? I hate this, all right? I actually hate that line that he spouts
53:11
about being the most attacked politician in the country because I imagine Joe Cox's children listening to that
53:16
or David Amos's daughter listening to that claim. he's had a milkshake thrown at him
53:21
they got murdered and he has the audacity to claim that he's the most attacked
53:28
politician in the country the man is a whining coward it's extraordinary
53:33
that he would, well, it's not is it because this is the man that heard
53:37
Henry Novak's grieving father explain that his son's death had nothing to do with racism or race
53:46
and plead with the proponents of public discourse not to pretend otherwise
53:51
and up popped Farage to claim and lie otherwise, to claim that poor Henry's ethnicity had anything to do with his death
54:01
or indeed his treatment by the police. And so we shouldn't be surprised that he would..
54:06
I mean, in fact, when Joe Cox was assassinated by a white supremacist terrorist
54:11
Farage was out of the block so fast to start attacking the Remain movement
54:15
that you couldn't see him for dust. That, of course, was on the morning that he unveiled that poster
54:22
the Breaking Point poster with all the echoes of Nazi propaganda. So, listen, I mean, I can do this all day
54:30
but the point is that when he comes out with one of his bloviations
54:33
or some of his... I wasn't a politician when I took that money. It was a personal gift
54:37
No, it wasn't. It was a gift to the owner of a political party in this country
54:43
the actual owner. of a political party in this country. So to call it a personal gift
54:49
is not only an act of epic dishonesty, but it's also an act of craven sycophancy
54:58
Because what you're doing is you're allowing a man to lie about something as significant
55:03
as a £5 million gift from a billionaire who subsequently saw policies being announced
55:11
that would make him even richer. You're allowing him to lie that he wasn't in politics
55:15
at the time when he literally owned the party that has taken in excess of £20 million from the same bloke
55:22
without any of us knowing, until some journalists did some actual journalism
55:27
that he'd also taken £5 million secretly. Secretly. From a Thai-based billionaire
55:38
And he was the owner of the party. Do I need to write this down for people to point it out to him
55:44
when he turns up for one of his traditional toe-tickling exercises. He was the owner of the party
55:52
Actually, that's not fair. He didn't get his toes tickled today. Sally Nugent on the BBC was particularly impressive on this question
55:59
which he is obviously desperate to bury. But you can't. You cannot have a politician in this country
56:06
with £5 million in his pocket from a foreign-based billionaire set to benefit from policies that have already been announced
56:14
and God knows what else he's hoping for and expecting in return, because when a liar tells you that there's no quid pro quo
56:21
when a liar tells you that the donor isn't expecting anything in return
56:25
when a liar tells you that he's the most attacked politician in British history
56:30
or in recent British politics, when two British politicians are in their actual graves as a consequence of murder
56:38
then it's up to you whether or not you believe the liar
56:42
That's all. It's up to you whether or not you believe that someone who's given over £20 million to the party that he owned
56:48
gave £5 million secretly to the actual owner without expecting anything in return
56:53
You are perfectly free to conclude, no, I'm sure that's entirely above board. And the bloke that gave over £20 million to the party
56:59
did not give £5 million to the owner of that party in expectation of some sort of reward or benefit
57:10
He owned the party. Even I had to double-check that. I thought surely other people would have pointed that out if it's true
57:19
but somewhere in the back of my head, I'm thinking, beginning of last year, February 2025
57:24
it was announced that he'd given up ownership of Reform UK, saying he wanted to give more control to its members
57:30
he said well if he if he only gave up ownership in 2025 and he took the five million quid in 2024
57:37
then he must have been the actual owner of the party when he took the five million quid
57:42
and now claims that he wasn't involved in politics at the time how can you not be involved in
57:48
politics while owning an actual party sheesh do you think anyone will put that to him next time he
57:55
pops his head above the parapet? I hope so. He was encouraged this morning
58:02
Some of the interviews conducted with him were pretty robust. Do you think it would be..
58:07
I mean, how could you not point out to him that he owned the party? I'll tell you why
58:11
Because it doesn't get reported properly. It doesn't get reported with anything like
58:16
the attention to detail or the excitement that was reserved, for example
58:20
for Keir Starmer's spectacles. £5 million to the owner of a political party
58:27
and they expect you to believe that there was absolutely no quid pro quo involved
58:36
That's all. While we're on the subject of things that you're expected to believe
58:40
and indeed foreign-based billionaires, there are two reasons why you might want this man to be Prime Minister
58:46
One is that you're a foreign-based billionaire. That's not fair. One is that you're a billionaire
58:51
and the other is that you're a mug. And I've got some fantastic news for you
58:56
You can work out which one you are, right now, just by looking at your own bank account
59:02
Are you a billionaire or are you a mug? Because if you want this character
59:06
who took five million quid secretly from a foreign billionaire while he owned a political party
59:12
to have anything to do with the running of this country, then you are either a billionaire or a mug
59:19
And it's really easy to work out which. especially with online banking, you can just click on your app
59:23
go to your current account or your savings account, go to your online banking app
59:28
and have a look at whether or not you're a billionaire. Because if you're not, and you're like this dude, you're a mug
59:34
Simples. It's coming up to quarter past eleven. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
59:38
And of course, part of his schtick this morning was that nobody cares, or it doesn't matter that the owner of a political party
59:44
took five million pounds secretly from a foreign-based billionaire. I'm tempted to do a phone-in on whether or not you care and why
59:52
Would you like to hear that today as we celebrate the great success of Brexit
59:57
ten years to the day since that referendum? ...and the result came in, would you like to tell me whether or not you care about the owner of a political party
1:00:05
secretly accepting millions and millions of pounds from a foreign-based billionaire and thinking that it was none of your business
1:00:13
while he owned a party to which the same billionaire has now given in excess of 20 million pounds
1:00:20
Because it feels to me like it matters. It feels to me like it matters
1:00:27
But hey, what do I know? James O'Brien on LBC. It is 17 minutes after 11 and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:00:37
Let's get back to this question of coronation or contest, because it is really important, and I can feel my..
1:00:42
What did I call it, Keith? Flux fatigue. I have to say that very carefully
1:00:46
It's a bit like the pheasant plucker. I've got a touch of flux fatigue
1:00:52
except I can feel it dissipating the longer this conversation goes on. And I think that I am of the view, Moe in Birmingham and Garant in Chester notwithstanding
1:01:01
that actually we just want a new Prime Minister in place as soon as possible
1:01:05
It is going to be Andy Burnham, regardless of whether there's a leadership contest or not
1:01:09
So what benefit would there be from a leadership contest? 0345 6060 973
1:01:16
It's a slightly different phone now. We won't do it for the whole hour. I've got business to attend to
1:01:21
But it is now coming from a position where I'm about 75% persuaded
1:01:25
that a leadership contest would be close to a waste of time
1:01:30
But I can always swing back again. You know that. Anna is in Wandsworth. Anna, what would you like to say
1:01:36
This is a great pleasure. I've never succeeded in getting through to you before
1:01:41
Well, all the pressure's on now. I hope there's no sense of anti-climax when we move towards the end of this call
1:01:46
I don't think so, no. No. No. Well, just to say, by the way, the Brexit Party was also Farage's company, so that's just an aside
1:01:58
Well, I've come right round in my way of thinking over the weekend
1:02:04
And this is really interesting, I think, for your listeners. Do you? Gosh
1:02:09
I do. Go on. I do. And this is the reason. and I'm not a flip-flopper
1:02:16
I do my research so I started off as a Corbynite and then I turned to Kirstama
1:02:24
because I was pragmatic and I supported him and I am a member of the Labour Party
1:02:30
and I campaigned etc in the weekend I was furious on Friday
1:02:36
I was very angry on Friday with the situation and I didn't want Kirstama to resign
1:02:41
But I took myself away and I basically sat down and I read a lot of information, a lot of articles, a lot of information that's come my way
1:02:55
And also from the groups that surround Andy Burnham, Compass being the main one
1:03:02
and I have come to the decision as your caller, the second caller today
1:03:10
the very energetic-sounding lady. Yes, in Glossop too, I think. Yes, that's right
1:03:16
I've come to believe that is the way forward and the reason for that is we are in that cliché
1:03:23
we are in unprecedented times because the globe is being swamped by this far-right insurgency
1:03:34
And we know full well that Farage wants to introduce Project 2025 into this country
1:03:40
if he gets to be installed in the hot seat. We know that he is linked at least with Russia
1:03:50
and Russia's intention was to get Kirsten Tama out, and no doubt will be to get Andy Burnham out
1:03:58
So we have the battle of our lives on our hands right now, and I think Andy Burnham has the plan
1:04:05
Do you? Because I'm not... Yes, I do. Well, that's good to know. You've done the homework
1:04:09
I mean, to be fair, traditionally, it should be the host that's done the homework and the caller that hasn't
1:04:13
as Robert in Rochester demonstrated rather brilliantly just before the 11 o'clock news
1:04:17
in a blast from the Brexit past. But that's really reassuring in that you put flesh upon the Burnham bones
1:04:25
by reading up on who he is and what he's done. A publication called Mainstream
1:04:31
or rather a group called Mainstream. Have a look at what they've done
1:04:35
And also Compass. I was a member of Compass before I joined Labour
1:04:41
so I do know what Compass are about. And a lot of things like assemblies
1:04:50
And he's fully signed up for that. I suppose one danger is that he did seem quite wobbly when he was last in Westminster
1:04:57
He did. This is what I think is most important post-Stammer, is that the first few big announcements
1:05:06
the first few big interventions have to be absolutely solid. They cannot risk any form of reversal or U-turn
1:05:16
And that means they just have to get everything absolutely right and stress tested before they announce it
1:05:21
And even if it's unpopular initially, they have to back it. They have to defend it to the hilt
1:05:28
And that's my worry, is that Burnham hasn't demonstrated in the past
1:05:32
that he is possessed of that sort of steeliness. I think he's matured
1:05:40
But also, I think he's got a good team behind him. He's got a good support system behind him
1:05:45
He has got a plan. I think that's the main thing. That's what I was worried about on Friday
1:05:50
Yeah, fair enough. whether he had a plan, because I know Keir Starmer did have a plan, but it was going too slowly, and people weren't seeing results
1:05:57
And he wasn't selling it well enough, even if it had been, you know, even if Burnham doesn't go faster
1:06:02
he needs to sell every milestone on that journey a lot more effectively than Starmer has done
1:06:06
And again, I can be optimistic about that, but perhaps not fatalistic
1:06:12
I have the kind of, yeah, the memories of what he was like
1:06:17
last time he was in Westminster. and don't see what you see
1:06:22
but you've done more work on it than I have, so your opinion counts for more than mine does
1:06:26
Did that call live up to your expectations, Anna? I'm surprised as well
1:06:32
Yes, it did. No, you did brilliantly. I hope it's not your last
1:06:36
albeit that it is your first. 11.23 is the time. We've got more clips to play
1:06:41
Have we got any votes coming in? The one that gets the most votes is the one that I'm not in
1:06:46
but it was by far the best Brexit call ever to this radio station
1:06:50
It just was. I can say that, even though the Brexit calls to this radio station
1:06:55
in many ways changed every aspect of my professional life. 23 after 11 is the time
1:07:01
Lucien is in Amsterdam. Lucien, what would you like to say? Yeah, hello, James
1:07:05
Thanks for taking my call. Well, yes, a great fan of your show
1:07:10
and should I offer my condolences to Britain regarding the Brexit vote
1:07:17
Excuse me, we're celebrating. It's our 10th anniversary today. We're having... Keith, have we got any sound effects yet
1:07:23
No? Still waiting? My most sincere congratulations Thank you Thank you Ha ha ha I bet you wish you weren in that pesky old European Union Lucien
1:07:35
Yes, yes, indeed. Well, we're not the nation to impose economic sanctions on itself
1:07:42
Yeah, fool. Well, fool you. I bet you've still got those two pin plugs, haven't you
1:07:48
Carry on, Lucien. What made you pick up the phone today? A funny, well, ironic ogy concerning the Andy Burnham case
1:08:03
Coronation or contest, and you say, I've heard you saying coronation or contest is an actual waste of time
1:08:14
That's what we of the Dutch Labour Party thought in 2010. When suddenly, well, the very celebrated party leader, he stepped down
1:08:29
And there was the Amsterdam mayor who was the most... He was actually the to-be-coronated candidate
1:08:39
Yes. So nobody in his right mind in the party. dare to contest him, or at least nobody who had a serious chance
1:08:49
Let's say only the chances would have entered the contest if it were called
1:08:56
But it wasn't called, because everyone was sure that this Amsterdam mayor would be the best one for the job
1:09:03
So he was, in fact, within a few weeks' time, he was installed as the leader of the Labour Party
1:09:12
and, well, also the leader of the elections that were held a few months after that
1:09:22
And then the debate started and there was some sort of change in position
1:09:27
because everyone knew him as the well-celebrated mayor of Amsterdam, well-respected. Everyone thought he was a great listener
1:09:37
He was a great listener and he was great in conference rooms, etc
1:09:42
But he wasn't so great in the debate when he was amongst his peers
1:09:48
So his peers, leaders from other parties, whose only ambition was to just, well
1:09:57
to let him stumble and trip, stumble and fall. Yeah. So, and in that environment, he just sank
1:10:04
And he sank, it's like, sensationally. Really? I should know this, shouldn't I
1:10:09
Yeah, his name is Job Cohen, and he was the party leader between 2010 and early 2012
1:10:21
And in 2012, the situation of the Labour Party had become so dire that the Socialist Party
1:10:30
so let's say the old communists, they were just running ahead of the Labour Party
1:10:37
Gosh. So, yes. Well, I don't know that, yeah, I mean, there will be a threat, of course, to Andy Burnham's Labour Party from the left, although not the communist left
1:10:46
And, of course, the grave threat at the moment is coming from the right
1:10:51
Did he have any pre-mayoral political history? Because, you know, Burnham has been a cabinet minister and he knows his way around Westminster
1:11:00
He doesn't sound to me as if he's quite as much of an unknown quantity as the mayor of Amsterdam
1:11:05
as in the difference between the national and the urban stage. He had ample experience as a politician, actually
1:11:15
because he had been the Secretary of State for migration. Yeah, okay, that's what I wondered
1:11:19
Okay, and it all went wrong. It all went wrong very, very quickly
1:11:24
So you're here like Banquo's ghost at the feast to remind us of what could all go horribly wrong
1:11:31
Thank you, Lucian. And these are important voices of caution. and would a contest..
1:11:36
That's the point, actually, isn't it? A contest would highlight potential flaws
1:11:41
It would give people an opportunity to rethink their current enthusiasm, a kind of caveat emptor
1:11:48
given that there's been a Latin theme to today's programme, and you get a chance to run the rule over what you're buying
1:11:54
before you actually make the final decision to hand the money over
1:12:00
Yeah, final call on this, I think. We'll move on to something else subsequently. John's in Forest Hill
1:12:04
Well, John, what do you reckon? I think a contest would benefit Andy Byrne
1:12:09
and he should state that he would welcome one. Firstly, I think it would give him legitimacy
1:12:20
You know, if he's been voted in with opponents by his party
1:12:27
he is more legitimate. But more importantly, I think a contest gives him time to plan
1:12:34
It's going to give him two or three months to assemble his cabinet, to choose the right chancellor, to create a policy platform
1:12:45
And you just said to one of your callers, they have to get everything right from day one
1:12:51
Yes, they do. Time to plan would give him a better chance of getting it right from day one
1:12:57
It would give his cabinet time to formulate their policy platforms and to get on top of their briefs and to hit the ground running
1:13:09
You've used the word stress test. It would give the opportunity to stress test his ideas and his policies to see how the markets are going to react to his ideas
1:13:22
It gives time for the public to get to know him. remember Kamala Harris
1:13:29
I don't buy that ogy. It's obviously got some traction, but the whole point with Kamala Harris
1:13:34
was that they took too long to do it. They should have actually done it much sooner. They should have torn off the plaster
1:13:38
with regards to Joe Biden and replaced him much more quickly without a challenge and without any contest
1:13:45
Yes, and Kamala didn't have chance to sell herself through the primaries
1:13:51
And if Burnham isn't going to have a chance to sell himself through an election..
1:13:55
But you're forgetting who the electorate is. The electorate... The electorate is Labour members
1:14:04
Yeah, the electorate is Labour members. The people he has to win over is the public
1:14:09
I don't think it works like that. And going back... But going back to the start..
1:14:13
You can't just gloss over that. It's quite a big point, because everything you've said made it sound as if
1:14:17
we all got a vote on who the next Labour leader is, or indeed who the next Prime Minister is
1:14:21
and we don't. It's only Labour members. And if they haven't got a clear idea of who Andy Burnham is
1:14:25
yet, then they probably shouldn't be Labour members. Fine. Then, addressing your point, with
1:14:30
a contest, he has to sell himself to his electorate, which are the Labour MPs
1:14:39
Which he's already done, as we saw yesterday, when over 200 of them sort of carried
1:14:43
him into Parliament on their proverbial shoulders. Okay, fine. And Wes Streeting
1:14:49
has come out and said, I'm backing him as well. I think Wes Streeting's probably done his homework
1:14:54
Well I think it a given It a given that is going to be elected Then it not going to be a very robust leadership contest then is it I think the important things here
1:15:09
are not what happens within his electorate. It's what happens in the back office
1:15:16
It's the planning. It's the round of meeting. Listen, if there's a battle, it's over by July 16th
1:15:24
If there isn't a battle, it's over by July the 9th, as far as I can tell. Well, no, if there's a battle
1:15:31
then he's got to spend the next month or so, you know, basically selling his policies publicly
1:15:39
With a lame duck prime minister in power. But so what? Well, so a lot, I think
1:15:44
if you're worried about the state of the nation. You make some interesting points
1:15:48
but I do think you perhaps forgot who the electorate was and that everything you said would carry a lot more weight
1:15:55
if we were talking about a plebiscite, if we were talking about a national vote on who's next
1:16:00
But we're not. We're talking about the Labour membership who have made their feelings pretty clear on this
1:16:05
Clearing than I can remember, actually. Probably the clearest I can remember since Tony Blair resigned
1:16:11
and nobody wanted to stand in Gordon Brown's way. And you could, of course, also cite that as a reason not to repeat history
1:16:18
It's 11.32. Dominic Ellis has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 11.36 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:16:30
where we will, I think, shake the old etch-a-sketch and move on
1:16:37
Here's the thing, right? When you have a deeply dishonest politician on the march
1:16:46
in a strong position, and we learned this from watching Donald Trump, didn't we
1:16:52
It's very difficult to keep up. What you have to do is trust your convictions
1:16:58
the courage of your convictions. So, to be fair, my inbox today isn't full of people saying
1:17:03
would you please stop going on about Nigel Farage's secret £5 million donation
1:17:07
and the fact that he's told three or four conflicting stories about it and also claims he wasn't in politics when he accepted it
1:17:14
despite the fact that he owned the actual party, that he is now the leader of
1:17:19
Just an extraordinary tapestry of misinformation and bloviation, isn't it? Truly extraordinary
1:17:30
But I am, of course, as I said to you at 10 o'clock this morning, I am fascinated by events
1:17:35
and I love talking about events, even as I find them repellent. And I think the way it works
1:17:41
is that if you say it often enough, then it becomes true
1:17:46
If you achieve power, then you force people to agree with you
1:17:50
If you, I don't know how much attention you're paying to what Donald Trump appointments say about the 2020 election
1:17:57
But it is horrible to watch. It's the kind of thing that you probably thought was confined either to less developed countries or the history books
1:18:06
Where Donald Trump wants or his regime wants an appointment made to a key role
1:18:11
And they get occasionally exposed to proper scrutiny and questioning in Congress
1:18:15
and they are asked who won the election and they say things like Joe Biden was ratified
1:18:19
as the winner of the 2020 election and then they say who won the 2025
1:18:26
was it 2025 the next one? Who won the next election? And they say Donald Trump did
1:18:30
So they can say Donald Trump won the election but they can't say Joe Biden did
1:18:34
because they know it will get them into trouble with the liar-in-chief. And that's how it works
1:18:40
That's how it works. You just keep lying. and you start off taking with you the people who love your lies
1:18:51
because you excuse their racism or their misogyny or their climate change denial
1:18:57
The climate change denial used to be confined, of course, to the funders, but they're more likely to have their money in crypto now
1:19:02
than they are in fossil fuels. So we may need to slightly rejig that part of the triangle
1:19:07
But you keep lying until even people who know that you're lying
1:19:12
sort of lose sight of the fact that you're lying. So the disputed election result is a bit like saying
1:19:20
the disputed phenomenon called gravity or the disputed spherical nature of the moon
1:19:29
or the disputed non-flatness of the earth. You find an absolute weapon who will argue that up is down
1:19:37
and you can talk about, if you're a certain type of journalist, and we've seen this in the States tragically, horribly
1:19:44
You can talk about the disputed 2020 election when it's not disputed at all
1:19:51
Even Fox News, whose relationship with the truth is tenuous at best
1:19:54
had to pay out hundreds of millions of dollars after amplifying some of the lies that were made about that election
1:20:01
although you wouldn't know it from their current coverage of the liar-in-chief. So you have to call this stuff out
1:20:08
and of course not just the dishonesty but also the attendant horror show
1:20:14
like the claim, there's a real snobbery to what they say about
1:20:19
their candidates comments about Carol Vorderman the comments that he responded to and endorsed about
1:20:26
I mean I don't even want to say it on the radio I interviewed Carol about it at the time
1:20:31
but there's a real snobbery it's as if Nigel Farage thinks that people who didn't go
1:20:37
to schools like his, men who didn't go to schools like his, publicly
1:20:43
repeatedly, express a desire to, forgive me for this, alright, if the kids are in the car, you might
1:20:49
just want to turn me down for a second. Nigel Farage seems to think that people
1:20:53
with Northern accents or working class backgrounds spend their lives telling each other how much
1:20:59
they would like to sniff famous women's bottoms. The snobbery attached to that is
1:21:04
extraordinary, right? Because I'm pretty sure that Richard Tice doesn't come into meetings at Reform HQ
1:21:13
and start talking about how much he wants to do that. I'm pretty sure he doesn't
1:21:19
30p Lee, I'm less sure, to be honest with you. But not because of his class or his background
1:21:24
just because of his general demeanour. Do you think that Zia Yusuf comes into Reform UK meetings
1:21:31
with a list of all the women's bottoms that he'd like to spend the weekend sniffing
1:21:35
because that's what Nigel Farage thinks is normal if you're talking about a plumber in Makerfield
1:21:43
The snobbery attached to that is off the charts. Of course, rich people, even allegedly educated people
1:21:51
will be misogynistic and hideous. They might, for example, confess to sex offending
1:21:57
on a conversation they didn't realise was being recorded and Farage will pass that off as locker room banter
1:22:04
and the rest of us will sit here and say, I would never boast to a friend about grabbing women
1:22:11
by their private parts. I would never, either privately or publicly, express a desire to sniff a famous woman's bottom
1:22:23
I would never and nor would any of the men that I know Not as banter not as humour not as locker room talk not as any of those things
1:22:35
And yet, either Nigel Farage does it all the time, or he believes that's how other men behave
1:22:42
Or, he's lying again. And to be honest with you, the third theory is probably the most persuasive
1:22:49
He's lying again, because he has to stick up for the misogynist. the alternative would be to call out the misogyny
1:22:55
and because the three things always go hand in hand the racism, the misogyny and the climate change denial
1:23:00
or the cryptocurrency friendly policies because they always go hand in hand
1:23:08
you can't tug one thread without pulling apart the rest of it you can't say that's misogynistic and disgusting
1:23:15
this bloke has no place in our party so he has been asked about that I think today
1:23:22
but he's also been asked about this money that he keeps taking, the five million quid he took while owner of Reform UK
1:23:30
And it's extraordinary to reflect upon how much his story has changed
1:23:36
For example, when the story first emerged, he claimed that it was a gift to fund his security
1:23:46
It wasn't political in any sense at all, but it was for one purpose
1:23:49
I've been the most attacked physically politician of modern times and yet despite repeated requests to the Home Office, the police
1:24:01
for protection and help, I've been denied at every twist and turn
1:24:06
This Money is the only way I can look after myself and protect myself for the rest of my life
1:24:11
I almost think I should issue a trigger warning to the families of Joe Cox and David Amess
1:24:15
when we play a clip like that of him claiming that he's the most physically attacked politician of modern times
1:24:20
when he's talking about milkshakes and they have buried a loved one
1:24:25
It's extraordinary. It's almost evil, the mentality behind that sort of lie
1:24:31
that sort of exaggeration. And then, I don't remember precisely, yes, I do, of course I do, it's my job to
1:24:39
just a couple of weeks later, he changed his story again. It's very unusual for someone to give up 27 years of their life
1:24:45
to campaign for something. And this was given to me on an unconditional basis
1:24:51
completely unconditional basis. But frankly, it was given as a reward for campaigning for Brexit for 27 years
1:24:58
Well, that's a political donation then, isn't it? That's a quid pro quo
1:25:03
Why did Christopher Harbourn, who's based in Thailand, want Brexit? Answers on a postcard, please
1:25:09
But he's given 20-odd million dollars to the party that Nigel Farage owned when he gave him
1:25:12
five million quid secretly and in private. So that's two completely conflicting stories
1:25:17
Either it was to fund his security, which will be very carefully assessed
1:25:23
the threat level will be very, very carefully assessed, as it is with all sitting parliamentarians
1:25:28
and some, of course, are much more vulnerable than others, but as a general rule, the kind of people who find Nigel Farage repellent
1:25:35
are not the kind of people that you'll find setting fire to hotels or throwing bricks at the police
1:25:41
So the assessment of what kind of threat... I'll tell you how pathetic he is
1:25:45
He once claimed on the record that I incited violence against him
1:25:49
Whereas, of course, all I ever do is play you clips of him speaking his own words
1:25:54
How desperate and pathetic would he have to be to claim that I was capable of inciting violence against somebody who calls for pure cold rage
1:26:02
in the aftermath of a horrible crime? Whereas all I ever call for is peace and love and friendliness
1:26:09
Oh, no, and honesty, which is, of course, where we depart. So he changed his story then and claimed that it was a reward for Brexit
1:26:21
This morning he did an interview round and Sally Nugent on the BBC took the question a little bit further
1:26:29
And he's so thin-skinned like all bullies and cowards. He's so thin-skinned
1:26:34
It's why he's been hiding for the last several weeks and why he barely ever turns up in Parliament anymore
1:26:39
because he knows he'll get asked for it, and he's hoping that it will just go away
1:26:44
Or that if he lies about it often enough, and you can't say that he hasn't lied
1:26:48
because both things can't be true, if it was to fund his security, then it wasn't a reward for Brexit
1:26:53
and if it was a reward for Brexit, then it wasn't to fund his security. So what exactly was it for
1:26:58
Sally Nugent this morning on the BBC wondered. Look, literally, none of your business
1:27:05
If I've given it to charity, but the truth is, I haven't
1:27:09
I know what it's down for. You haven't spent any of it? It's none of your business. It's literally
1:27:13
none of your... How much of your salary do you spend on beer, on petrol? It's none of your business
1:27:20
I think it is the public's business to know... No, it's not the public's business. Well, it's being investigated by the Parliamentary Standards Committee, so it's somebody's business
1:27:26
You're saying you need security, a legitimate point. How much of that money have you spent on security so far
1:27:34
I'm sorry. Well, I know I'm not going to answer that deliberately. Willfully
1:27:38
Do you wish that you had declared this money at the time
1:27:42
It is not your business at the BBC to put me in danger therefore I will not answer that question
1:27:46
I would just like to clarify, do not make any mistake we are not putting you in any danger, at all
1:27:50
If I answer that question you are, so I won't. It is 11.47
1:27:56
and even Nick Ferrari this morning on LBC was reluctant to let him off the hook too quickly
1:28:03
It got quite heated this conversation it was a bit like when Ricky and Bianca broke up
1:28:07
Nigel Farage, please, what has happened to this £5 million gift? With all due respect, what's it going to do with you
1:28:13
Well, because it speaks to the position of you holding office. Initially, we were told that it was because of your personal security
1:28:20
and it would pay for that for the rest of your life. Then apparently it was some kind of reward for campaigning, for Brexit
1:28:26
I am told we have two different stories, which is the truth? I think you're contradicting yourself there, aren't you
1:28:31
Well, if you tell me what happened with the £5 million, then we're solved. It's an unconditional gift. I can spend it on Ferrari
1:28:37
if I want, that would be entirely up to me. Why did you say it was for personal security then
1:28:41
Because it was given as an unconditional gift, right? The understanding is, and you know
1:28:47
very well, you know very well I've been physically more attacked over many years than any other policy
1:28:53
I've been with you when you've been abused. I've seen that. But I just, my listeners
1:28:57
want to know, Mr. Farrar, how much has been spent? I can do with it as I want. I can do what I want with it
1:29:03
I can put it on the horses. Yes, you are under review though by the Parliamentary
1:29:07
standards commissioner well and maybe we shouldn't be discussing it in that case but what i will say
1:29:11
to you is i know i know that i will need protection until i die it is 11 48 um so there it is he
1:29:25
claims that he is particularly vulnerable um while simultaneously celebrating a woman who called for
1:29:33
people to be set on fire in asylum hotels. They're literally inviting her onto the stage
1:29:40
I mean, it's incredible how disingenuous he is. He claims to be more attacked than any other politician
1:29:45
when two have been assassinated in recent living memory. And when you push him as a journalist
1:29:52
he claims that you somehow, by asking him questions, to which he often replies dishonestly, he claims that
1:29:59
you are inciting violence. How does it incite violence against Nigel Farage
1:30:04
Asking him why a billionaire gave him five million quid. And of course, even before we found out
1:30:09
that a billionaire gave him five million quid, the journalists, and there aren't many others
1:30:13
who do a decent job of holding him to an account and explaining what a charlatan he is
1:30:17
he'll claim that they incite violence against him as well. So imagine if I came on the radio
1:30:21
and called for pure cold rage to be directed at Nigel Farage
1:30:26
Pure cold rage to be directed at that man. And that would make me dangerous and irresponsible
1:30:33
All I do is either laugh at him or point out to you what a massive liar he is
1:30:37
How does he respond to that? For me, you're reaching out into your critics
1:30:42
And how would you convince your old LBC chum, James O'Brien? I mean, he says you stoke division, you know, all this
1:30:49
I think he's someone that incites violence. Do you? I do. I don't think he should be broadcasting
1:30:55
He would deny that. He has caused so much hatred towards me
1:30:59
it's just not true and you know i might have been criticized in the past you know for attacking
1:31:04
people in the european parliament all i ever did all i ever did was tease them you know some of
1:31:09
these people some of what's being said in media and being repeated out there in the streets
1:31:15
particularly since the riots is is really the riots that he's never condemned of course and
1:31:20
which many people consider he incited and the riots that were the backdrop to that woman claiming
1:31:26
that she wanted to see all of the hotels containing asylum seekers set on fire
1:31:30
A woman who was subsequently provided with a hero's welcome on stage
1:31:34
at the party conference for the party that Nigel Farage leads and used to own
1:31:38
In fact, the party that he owned when he accepted the five million quid
1:31:43
from Christopher Harbourn. And some of the stuff he said about those hideous comments
1:31:48
directed at Carol Vorderman probably merit repetition as well. So we'll have a listen to them shortly
1:31:55
and we may even catch up with Carol herself about her latest thoughts on this horrible saga that has been inflicted upon her
1:32:03
by Farage and his misogynistic mates. James O'Brien on LBC. 55 is the time, and so to ITV after the BBC
1:32:12
where Nigel Farage this morning responded to Ranveer Singh's question about what he'd learned about female voters from the Maker Field by-election
1:32:20
where Farage's candidate was, of course, a self-described sexist who had expressed, frankly, extraordinary views
1:32:27
regarding Carol Vorderman, who will join us after this. Traditionally, new political movements
1:32:33
attract more male than female voters to begin with. Men take risks, I think, much more easily
1:32:39
maybe much less responsibly in some cases. I think in Makerfield we had a problem..
1:32:44
Which was? ...with some of the historic things. Our candidate, great bloke, plumber, rugby player
1:32:51
ex-army guy... And sexist. Drinker, one of the lads, and, you know
1:32:56
if you go into pubs tonight when England are playing football, you would hear all sorts of banter
1:33:00
that in the cold light of day would not look good. That did us harm. And you didn't ask him to apologise to, say, for example
1:33:06
Carol Vorderman. Was that a mistake on your part? Well, I think Carol Vorderman, you know, writing letters to every constituent and directly involving herself..
1:33:13
To all the women. Directly involving herself in a political campaign. I think there's some serious questions to ask
1:33:18
Well, she was brought into it. She was brought into it because your candidate
1:33:22
did apologise to him. And I'm wondering... We can't even say on Breakfast Tourism
1:33:26
what was said, because it's so bad. And it will be in every pub tonight
1:33:30
That's the point I'm making. Oh, no. Most men do not say that kind of thing about women
1:33:35
What was said by him was lads banter. I don't approve of it. I don't approve of it at all
1:33:40
Not at all in any way. I mean, speaking of pubs, during England's last game against Croatia
1:33:47
he posted a picture of himself in a pub that was two years old, wearing an England shirt
1:33:51
That's a measure of the man for you. So quite what he's basing his experience of pub-based banter on
1:33:56
is at the very best two years out of date and at the very worst completely invented
1:34:01
Carol Vorderman, people probably don't fully appreciate that you, despite being one of the most recognisable faces
1:34:07
on our television screens for years, your childhood and your early years
1:34:11
were far from luxurious or privileged. You come effectively from a working-class background
1:34:17
Did all the men you knew growing up speak like that? no and I hasten to add you know the go oh yeah you hear I'm building sites so I grew up in abject
1:34:26
poverty in North Wales and the strip of North Wales that's kind of very much attached to Liverpool
1:34:31
Chester Manc and then I lived in Leeds for many years we recorded Countdown up there at Yorkshire
1:34:36
Television and you know I would regard my sort of essence as really a northerner but certainly not
1:34:42
one from the southeast and it's like you know my stepfather was a builder I spent so many years
1:34:49
on building sites. I studied civil engineering. I worked on a construction site in Snowdonia
1:34:56
underground. Me, the only woman with 2,000 men. Nobody ever said those things to me
1:35:03
Nobody. And Nigel Farage is an absolute disgrace. And there, when he said
1:35:09
oh, yes, well, you know, it's just lads' banter. But of course I don't approve
1:35:13
You see, every time he sort of, it just fails. And when he was up in Makerfield last week
1:35:19
And he was asked the question again about this online abuse by Kenyon
1:35:24
He went, so what? Reform is an anti-women company. Let's be honest, it's a company owned by Farage
1:35:35
He doesn't own it anymore, although he did own it when he accepted five million quid from Christopher Harbourn
1:35:40
despite not being involved in politics at the time. so um i am pleased that the result in makerfield was uh dramatic one for the tactical vote and also
1:35:53
because we know that um the letter and keeping on talking about rob kenyon's sexism including on
1:36:01
question time as you would have seen um led a lot of women to change their vote and i'm very happy
1:36:08
about that. And, you know, Varage saying, oh, she shouldn't be covered
1:36:12
and she shouldn't be involved in political campaigning. Well, I've news for you, love
1:36:16
if you're listening. I'll carry on doing what I want to do
1:36:20
And just to clarify, Carol Vorderman, you do that with your own money, do you? As opposed to with secret donations
1:36:25
from Thai-based billionaires. James, as you know, I get sacked from jobs
1:36:31
for speaking my mind. I lose money. Not from LBC, for the record
1:36:37
No, I was not backed by LBC. No, quite the opposite. That was for health reasons, that was
1:36:43
And exhaustion, no, by the BBC. And no, I've never had a donation from anybody
1:36:49
Do you think, do you think, well, we could possibly rectify that. I'm sure we could
1:36:53
start a crowd funder. Do you think that he talks like that himself, or that the men he knows talk
1:36:59
like that? Or do you think, because he obviously, when Donald Trump talked about grabbing
1:37:03
women by their private parts, he seemed to be under the impression that that's how
1:37:07
all men talk or I mean or is he just covering up for the misogyny of his candidates and friends
1:37:13
in the case of Kenyon and Trump or does he just knock about with a particularly unsavoury bunch
1:37:20
of men what do we think is going on here I think that fundamentally is who he is it a combination of all those things that you say he thinks he on a roll he isn reform Reformers on their way out now As we know even over the last year it went down from almost 35 in the polls to now about 23
1:37:38
And they're just going down, down, down. I predict he will leave the party probably by the end of next year when they get down to 16% in the polls
1:37:50
And they're an also-ran party. And just like he did in 2019, you know, he just gifted it to Boris Johnson, didn't he
1:38:00
He could retire to spend more time with other people's money. You also predicted that Keir Starmer wouldn't lead Labour into the next general election when we spoke a couple of years ago
1:38:09
I had to be reminded of that by somebody. So perhaps Mystic Carol is the name that we should apply to you
1:38:15
The whisperer. Yeah? Why were you so confident of that? Well, that was in the Labour Party conference last September
1:38:25
I had the chance to do it. There were about 400 or 500 people in the audience, all obviously Labour Party members, and many of them were councillors
1:38:31
And I was with Carol Cadwallader on the stage and said, look, you know, Keir Starmer, my prediction
1:38:39
will never be voted in again as prime minister. And if you want to win another election
1:38:43
you're going to have to change the leader. And then I did some half-joking stuff about Andy Bernabé
1:38:48
that, you know. Oh, I do. And interestingly then, so it's almost a year ago
1:38:56
at the Labour Party conference, having said all of that, more or less got a standing ovation from the whole audience
1:39:03
And that's when you knew. So I must have said what was going on at the time
1:39:08
Yeah. Well, we're grateful for your insights, both the clairvoyant ones and the slightly more personal ones
1:39:14
And I know that you can talk about being thick-skinned and having dealt with this kind of conduct
1:39:21
well, not specifically this kind of conduct, but various degrees of misogyny throughout your life
1:39:26
But I've said it to you before and I'll say it again. I don't think you should have to. I don't care how thick your skin is
1:39:30
I think it's disgusting that you have been personally exposed to these kind of comments and the defence of them by Nigel Farage
1:39:38
and that your children have to see it. And even if it is water off a duck's back for you
1:39:43
I'm really sorry that you have to endure it. well well that's kind of i'm sorry for women who haven't had my kind of background who have to
1:39:52
endure it and this whole daily grind that women have to put up with online and also obviously
1:40:00
offline i think it's time to say enough now um but in many ways it's like oxygen to me because i
1:40:09
love a fight with a wrong and i love it long way to continue carol vorderman um and remind me
1:40:16
never to get on the wrong side of you. Carol Vorderman live, responding to comments from Nigel Farage this morning
1:40:22
about the deeply misogynistic online comments made by his self-described sexist candidate
1:40:29
defeated candidate in Makerfield, Rob Kenyon. And just to clarify, Farage insists that the £5 million gift
1:40:36
is not a donation, it's a gift, although it was both a reward for Brexit
1:40:40
and indeed for his security, but also unconditional for him to spend
1:40:45
on whatever he wanted, and this morning on interviews he was comparing it with salaries
1:40:50
He was asking presenters what they did with their salary and suggesting that he had as much right to know
1:40:55
what they spent their salary on, as in the money they received for services rendered, as what he spent the money he received
1:41:01
from Christopher Harbourn on. So it was Nigel Farage this morning who was drawing parallels
1:41:05
between what he calls a gift and other people's salary, as in the wages they receive, for doing what their employer
1:41:12
wants them to do. I'm not sure he realised that. It's 12.04
1:41:17
James O'Brien on LBC. And it's eight minutes after 12. Welcome to the party
1:41:22
We are celebrating on this programme the 10th anniversary of the Brexit referendum
1:41:26
because none of the people that won seem to be keen to celebrate it. Some of them keep saying we should stop talking about it
1:41:31
despite the fact that this week alone it was reported to have sustained a 6% hit to our GDP
1:41:37
Later in the hour, I'll play you a conversation I had earlier this morning with Michel Barnier
1:41:41
who of course was the chief negotiator for the European Commission over that epic saga dealing with
1:41:49
it's almost impossible to keep track of how many prime ministers he was dealing with
1:41:55
albeit that he didn't conduct the negotiations in the first instance with the actual prime ministers
1:42:00
and not long after that he became prime minister himself of France for about six months
1:42:04
A fascinating politician, a fascinating man, very dignified man, A kind of reminder of what our politicians used to look like when it was people like Michael Heseltine stalking the corridors of power or Neil Kinnock
1:42:18
But I don't know, we seem to have come a very long way from those days. Hopefully, I thought, personally, Keir Starmer might signal a return to them, but that hope has proved to be forlorn
1:42:28
What I want you to tell me is, and this is a slightly odd question for me to ask you
1:42:35
because I obviously have a very resounding answer to it, which I've written an entire book
1:42:42
that is almost an answer to this question. There is some other stuff in it as well
1:42:48
But how much of our current mess is attributable, not in full, but at least in part to Brexit
1:43:01
I mean, it is extraordinary, isn't it, that the massed ranks of the media
1:43:10
almost all of the media, even the bits of the media that weren't in favour of it
1:43:14
hedged their bets by getting their Sunday title to be in favour of it
1:43:18
At the Times, for example, where their daily title ostensibly wasn't. But Rupert Murdoch, of course, was
1:43:26
I think he just felt that the Times newspaper in that era, in that 10-year-ago period
1:43:32
the readers wouldn't really stomach a position as stupid as supporting leaving the European Union
1:43:38
But leave the European Union, we did. Speaking of newspapers, the Daily Express today, which has sort of become a Bible for the heart of thinking
1:43:46
goes with a front page claiming that there is a brilliant Brexit, but it goes to a different school
1:43:52
That isn't quite what it says on their front page, but it may well have done
1:43:57
because that is the point that they make. with a front page on the morning after a British Prime Minister resigned
1:44:03
The Daily Express goes for, give us a proper Brexit. Indeed, they've sort of mocked up a picture of the White Cliffs of Dover
1:44:12
upon which to stick that claim, give us a proper Brexit. And of course, none of them can tell you what a proper Brexit would be
1:44:23
Or rather, they can tell you what a proper Brexit would be because a proper Brexit is what they got
1:44:28
But they can't admit that because what they got was a load of rot
1:44:33
And it certainly didn't bear any resemblance to what they were promised they would get by various liars and charlatans
1:44:38
Some of whom continue to dominate public discourse in this country. And don't please think for a minute that that's accidental or coincidental or a mark of any particular skills on the part of the liars and charlatans
1:44:49
You know, Johnson gets rewarded with a column in the Daily Mail
1:44:53
Johnson gets rewarded with a free house in the garden of the bloke that owned JCB after he got slung out by his own party These people get rewarded by the establishment
1:45:06
even as they claim to be anti-establishment. David Frost writing in The Telegraph last week
1:45:11
about the establishment having it in for... But who is the establishment if it's not The Daily Telegraph
1:45:16
Who is the establishment if it's not Rupert Murdoch? Who is the establishment if it's not Boris Johnson
1:45:22
Who on earth is this establishment that Nigel Farage is supposed to be opposed to
1:45:26
They got the only Brexit that was available. Anything other than what they got would have been immeasurably worse
1:45:34
and anything better than what they got would have involved retaining freedom of movement
1:45:38
Because you can't have freedom of movement of goods, or freedom of movement of money, or freedom of movement of services without having freedom of movement of people
1:45:46
Those four things were inalienable and inseparable. Always were, and almost certainly always will be
1:45:53
Although some of what Michel Barnier said to me about the circumstances in which we could rejoin the European Union
1:45:59
while not necessarily newsworthy, because he's made similar noises before, were of great interest to me, and I suspect will be to you
1:46:07
So it's mad to me, but utterly and dispiritingly unsurprising, that ten years after the event, you have my old newspaper, actually
1:46:15
the Daily Express, although it was a very different organ then, can still be selling this bilge to its readers
1:46:22
can still be gaslighting them, grooming them into believing that they weren't conned in 2016
1:46:28
Oh, don't worry, you weren't conned. It's just that Boris Johnson didn't deliver what you wanted
1:46:34
What, the same Boris Johnson that you treated like a cross between Champion the Wonder Horse and Mother Teresa
1:46:40
for his entire premiere show? Yeah, that bloke. Yeah, it turns out he was a wrong-un
1:46:45
What, shouldn't you have told us at the time? Shouldn't Farage have told you that Johnson was a wronger
1:46:51
when he stood down his own MP candidates in order to grease Boris Johnson's passage into Downing Street
1:46:57
So who are you blaming for the fact that Brexit has failed? Carol Vorderman
1:47:03
And you. James O'Brien and Gary Lineker. Well, I'm only half joking, because they do and they will
1:47:12
But if Brexit was not delivered, if what was delivered was not a proper Brexit
1:47:16
whose fault was it? It was Boris Johnson that delivered the Brexit you got. It was Boris Johnson that got cheered to the rafters
1:47:22
for delivering the Brexit that you got. It was Boris Johnson that got greeted delivering a Brexit
1:47:28
very, very similar to the one that Theresa May had organised, but which, of course, he managed to mastermind
1:47:34
the removal of Theresa May from Downing Street for organising. There was never anything better on the table
1:47:39
if you didn't accept freedom of movement of people. And the racists couldn't do that
1:47:45
So everything they got is all they were ever going to get
1:47:49
There was that horrible window where they were so stupid that they flirted with the idea of taking something even worse than what they got
1:47:57
And they would go on about WTO. Let's go WTO. Or we can come out on World Trade Organization
1:48:02
And if you asked any of them what that meant, they would fall apart like a cheap suit
1:48:08
The strangest, perhaps the most significant political experience of my professional life
1:48:13
and I've told you this a million times, but it's the 10th anniversary of Brexit, and no one else is celebrating
1:48:18
so I'll tell you again. It was when I sat in a television studio with a man called Pascal Lammy
1:48:24
a former director general of the World Trade Organization, and sitting opposite him in that television studio
1:48:33
was a woman called Andrea Leadsom. And I'm not being unkind, but I can't think of anything to add now
1:48:39
where I said about Pascal Lammy, a former director general of the World Trade Organization
1:48:45
All I can think of to say about Andrea Leadsom is that she has never and had never and will never
1:48:50
have anything whatsoever to do with the World Trade Organization. And this was when Johnson thought that threatening the European Union
1:48:58
with a no deal would somehow frighten them into acquiescence. It would be a bit like me turning up at your house
1:49:04
and saying, if you don't give me all your money, I'm going to chop my own leg off. And you'd probably not give me all your money at that point
1:49:12
But that was the tactic that was being deployed by Boris Johnson and the boy genius Dominic Cummings
1:49:17
And part of that threat involved saying, well, if we go WTO, we'll be better off
1:49:23
We'll be fine. We'll be laughing. And people turned up with banners going, let's go WTO
1:49:28
People who believed in things like bendy bananas were convinced. They persuaded by then the damage had already been done
1:49:35
Their poor tiny little brains had been boiled into oblivion. and they actually thought that World Trade Organization rules
1:49:42
were preferable or desirable or even feasible. They didn't know what it even meant
1:49:47
But by then, their brains were so boiled that they just grabbed onto it
1:49:51
and pretended not only that they understood what it meant, but that they wanted it
1:49:57
And the BBC, being what it was, and sadly still is, insisted that I interviewed Andrea Leadsom
1:50:03
alongside the man who used to run the World Trade Organization. So I can turn to the man that used to run the World Trade Organization and I could say, what would it mean if we were to come out on WTO rules
1:50:18
And he could tell me politely that it didn't really mean anything because it was more or less impossible and that if it did mean anything, it would be awful
1:50:28
No trade deals with anybody ever. so we sort of either become an ashtray for all the stuff in the world that nobody else wants to
1:50:36
buy because it breaks all the rules all the regulations all the health and safety provisions
1:50:39
or i mean there wasn't even an answer to the question because it was such a stupid question
1:50:45
but pascal lammy was an honorable man still is an honorable man and he was able to explain what a
1:50:51
stupid what a ludicrous prospect wto rules was and then i have to turn to andrea ledsam and invite
1:50:59
her to tell him why he's wrong. On Newsnight on the BBC
1:51:06
not on GBBs, on actual Newsnight, could you please tell the former
1:51:11
Director General of the World Trade... Hello, lady, who has never worked for the World Trade
1:51:15
Organisation, never will work for the World Trade Organisation, has absolutely no understanding of the World Trade
1:51:22
Organisation, and has never had anything to do with the World Trade Organisation, and
1:51:25
quite possibly struggles to spell WTO. Could you please explain to the former Director General of the
1:51:31
World Trade Organization why you know more about it than he does
1:51:38
That was the moment. Two things happened. Number one, I thought I can't do this anymore
1:51:43
I can't pretend to be impartial. It's like being impartial about gravity or being impartial
1:51:48
about rain. It's either happening or it's not. And the second thing I
1:51:52
thought was that this doesn't get undone when it's over. this is so deep now
1:51:57
this runs so deep into our country into our discourse it's going to take generations to undo it
1:52:03
we are treating fools and liars as if they are the intellectual equivalent
1:52:08
of experts and people who've actually done the job we are elevating fools and liars
1:52:18
to the same status as the people who know what they're talking about
1:52:23
and we're calling it balance So when I look at the state of the country and I wonder why we in such a mess why we had or will soon have had seven prime ministers in under 11 years
1:52:37
I look at riots on our streets. I look at incredible levels of civil disobedience
1:52:44
The civil disobedience itself isn't new, but the levels of it are. Certainly inviting a woman who calls for pogroms to be feted on the stage of a British political party
1:52:54
These are new developments. And I want you to tell me how much of it goes back to Brexit and why and how
1:53:04
Because it does, but I want to know how much of it does
1:53:08
And I want to know why it does. And I want to know how it does
1:53:14
03456060973. I've also got a bunch of clips. We've barely scratched the surface of these. We've got the brown faces behind the tills at Tesco bloke
1:53:22
Do you remember him? We've got all the classics here. We've even got one, I feel a little sorry for Ashley and Pinner
1:53:28
because this was a call that I conducted with countless people at the time. Someone persuaded that the best reason to leave the European Union
1:53:35
is because we won't have to obey their pesky laws anymore. In which case, you'll definitely be able to name lots of laws
1:53:41
you're looking forward to not having to obey anymore, won't you? Yeah, I think we all know how that one ends
1:53:46
So, explain to someone who's been asleep for 10 years why much of the mess we find ourselves in today as a country
1:53:59
up to and including perhaps the swiftness and the ease with which we change Prime Minister now
1:54:06
can be traced back to that referendum result that came in ten years ago today
1:54:12
but which none of the people who caused it currently see fit to celebrate
1:54:18
Make of that what you will. And then, of course, you have the Daily Express popping up to remind us of the greatest lie of all ten years in
1:54:25
there is a brilliant Brexit, there is a proper Brexit, there is a different Brexit, it just goes to a different school
1:54:31
So just link the febrile nature of British politics to whatever was unleashed ten years ago today
1:54:43
Okay? 0345 6060 973. And I'll take symptoms or causes, anything you've got
1:54:50
but by way of assembling a tapestry of understanding so that if you'd fallen asleep on the 22nd of June 2016
1:55:01
and you woke up yesterday and you looked at the state of your country and you said, what, another prime minister has gone
1:55:07
What, pogroms on our streets? What, senior politicians responding to the murder
1:55:12
by responding to a horrible murder by completely ignoring the family of the victim
1:55:18
and telling lies about the... OK, what's happened? Draw me a map
1:55:26
Show me you're working. It's 12.22. James O'Brien on LBC. You can look at Germany's economic performances 2016
1:55:35
and correctly and persuasively describe it as worse than ours. And sometimes I hear Brexiters trying to pretend
1:55:43
that that proves Brexit was a good idea. You won't find anybody in Germany
1:55:47
except whatever the German equivalent of Andrea Leadsom is you won't find anybody in Germany
1:55:54
who thinks things would have been better for them if they hadn't been in the European Union
1:55:58
so it doesn't matter how bad it is and it is a worse performance than ours for a whole heap of reasons
1:56:03
it would have been even worse if they weren't in the biggest single market on the planet
1:56:07
that's not even an opinion that's counting but unfortunately it was counting in 2016
1:56:11
and many people decided that 2 plus 2 equaled 7 and they're still on the march
1:56:17
They've still got the columns. They're still presenting the programmes that they used to tell you to vote for it
1:56:22
and why it was a great idea when every single thing that they based that ludicrous opinion on
1:56:26
has been shown to be false. So, how much of the current madness
1:56:31
how much of the current horror, how much of the current malaise
1:56:35
can be traced back to Brexit? Andy's in Liverpool. Andy, what would you like to say
1:56:40
Hi, James. Listen, thank you very much for the show. I absolutely adore the show
1:56:45
Oh, thank you. Trust me, thank you. It's the one show that I listen to
1:56:49
that I don't scream at the screen. You know what I mean
1:56:53
It's just, it really is. It really is. That's lovely. I'd just like to say
1:56:58
I just, I am, okay, I'm an older person now. Right. I am adhorsed by what this country has become
1:57:07
because of Brexit. And it really has. It can be traced back to that
1:57:12
I mean, I'm not being funny, right? Yes, there was the National Front
1:57:17
There was all those things going on years gone by. It happened. Yes, we knew it happened
1:57:22
We didn't have England flags sticking on lampposts or Welsh flags or Scottish flags
1:57:29
or whatever you might want to call. Well, except during sporting tournaments
1:57:33
Exactly, exactly. I mean, it's happening now because people say it's a sports tournament
1:57:38
but these flags have been up for six months. Exactly. But sports tournament lasts for six months
1:57:42
right? Why are we doing this? Why are we allowing this to happen
1:57:46
It's illegal to put on the lampposts, but the local authorities are not taking them down
1:57:52
right? Because they're fighting. Yeah, I've challenged my local authority and said, listen, they need to come down, right
1:57:59
I mean, if somebody's able to go up on a ladder and put them up, then I'm
1:58:04
able to go up on a ladder to take them down, right? Why do you link this to Brexit
1:58:09
Why do you link this to Brexit? Right. Brexit basically caused the boats, right
1:58:15
Yes, there was emigration beforehand, but people didn't jump in a boat and come across the Channel
1:58:22
It never happened, right? The reason why it didn't happen was because people could come over here
1:58:28
on trains, whatever it may be. We had safe routes, safe and legal routes
1:58:33
Exactly, right? It wasn't Brexit that closed that, it was Johnson. We didn't have to close those safe and legal routes
1:58:41
They just chose to, in order to appease the people who voted for Brexit
1:58:45
in order to get rid of all the foreigners. But the problem you've got is we're putting people through, right
1:58:51
We're putting people like men, women, children, through one of the most dangerous waterways in the world, right
1:58:59
We're letting them go across a 20-odd mile stretch of water, which is so busy you can get..
1:59:06
The Farragist would respond by saying that nobody is forcing them to
1:59:10
But just draw me a slightly stronger link between Brexit and all the things that you're describing
1:59:16
Because I feel it. I just want to hear it in your words. What was unleashed
1:59:22
It makes it acceptable for people to be anti-Europe. And it's not even anti-Europe
1:59:29
It's anti-people who don't look like us. Actually, you don't even need that
1:59:33
It's anti-people. It's anti-people. It doesn't matter whether they look like us or not, because the people that he got cross about at the time, that they all got cross about at the time, did look like us
1:59:43
It was Polish people and Romanian people and French people and Spanish people and European people. That's who they voted to get rid of
1:59:50
And then, of course, all of the vacancies that were left had to be filled by people who, it turned out, didn't look like us
1:59:56
And because it was a much bigger journey to make and a much bigger lifestyle journey
1:59:59
upheaval, they wanted to bring their families with them. And we had to quite rightly let them
2:00:04
because otherwise they wouldn't have come. And that's all on Boris Johnson. And Boris Johnson
2:00:08
was a consequence of Brexit. So all of what you describe is a consequence of Brexit. Of course
2:00:13
in a nicer country, then that wouldn't have mattered because we wouldn't be raging at the
2:00:17
fact that there are too many brown and black faces on our television or in our supermarkets
2:00:21
which reminds me actually of Stephen Harrow and that seminal clip from the Brexit years of him
2:00:27
complaining or explaining why he voted to leave the European Union because of all the brown people working at his local supermarket
2:00:33
I may play that to you shortly, but I want to leave enough time to play my conversation with Michel Barnier
2:00:38
after the very latest news headlines that are coming up next. But I will leave a little bit of time
2:00:44
because it's quite a long conversation and then we're going to run out, aren't we? So I've got plenty of people waiting to talk about this
2:00:50
but also kind of focusing on the fact that we've got four clips to get through
2:00:56
that's not going to happen we've got a 15 minute interview michelle barneyo to get through that's
2:01:00
that's not going to happen and we've got murray and bob and leah and andy and others waiting oh
2:01:04
no we've spoken to andy and others waiting to talk about how much of the current mess can be
2:01:08
traced back to brexit and of course we've got amelia cox with your headlines james o'brien on lbc
2:01:14
it is very difficult to believe that 10 years ago today people were insisting that this would be a
2:01:22
day of national celebration that every year the anniversary of our Brexit referendum would be
2:01:28
celebrated with dancing in the streets and festivals and enormous parties. Michel Barnier
2:01:35
obviously you were the commission's chief Brexit negotiator for that sometimes interminable five
2:01:42
year period and you are in London for the anniversary. Have you seen any celebrations
2:01:47
have you witnessed any parties no because I think there is nothing to celebrate
2:01:52
frankly speaking nothing except perhaps a mutual respect friendship and also respect between us
2:02:04
but there is nothing to celebrate because Brexit remains 10 years after
2:02:11
and even 5 years after a lose-go game can you remember your reaction
2:02:18
upon hearing the news of what the United Kingdom had done yes
2:02:23
very surprised so many people it was unbelievable but it was the choice of the UK people
2:02:30
so we have never tried to not respect this sovereign decision we have regretted this decision
2:02:40
clearly everybody in Europe but we have decided to deliver and have you come subsequently to a greater understanding of how it happened when you have
2:02:51
perhaps become more familiar with some of the characters that drove the leave campaign does it
2:02:57
become clearer to you how the country did such first of all during the first sequences of the
2:03:03
negotiation 2016 and 2017, waiting for the snap elections in June 2017, I tried to understand
2:03:15
why 52% of the British people wanted to leave Europe, why Farage and some others succeeded
2:03:25
to use the scapegoat of Brussels to explain all the British difficulties, which was not true
2:03:32
Which is not true. Brussels is not responsible for everything. And the fact is that there is many problems in the UK, in France too
2:03:41
and the reason and the solution are not in Brussels for everything. And Mr. Farage now, of course, is riding high in the polls
2:03:50
despite the, I think, undeniable failure of the Brexit project. Is that a significant factor in how the Commission may view rapprochement
2:04:00
the fact that Farage could be prime minister three, four years from now
2:04:05
And so anything that the, we have a new prime minister, I'm sure you're aware this is our seventh since the referendum
2:04:12
But if Farage, the prospect of Farage becoming prime minister means that any resettlement or renegotiation
2:04:19
that the current government undertakes is kind of written in sand. Let me say just a word about Keir Starmer
2:04:26
because I have a lot of respect for Keir Starmer. We met several times during the negotiation and after, when I was a French Prime Minister two years ago
2:04:37
And to be clear, I have no comment to do, but in any case, whatever happened in the future
2:04:46
I wish the best for the UK people, for the UK. I don't want to make any speculation what could happen in the next four or five years in the UK
2:04:57
In any case, to create this reset, to build a new spirit between EU and UK will depend
2:05:09
on the UK choice. We are open, we are there and I think it is a common interest apart or in addition to
2:05:18
the Brexit which is done and for us the Brexit is on the book
2:05:24
The point is to know what we can do, what we need to do together for our defence
2:05:30
the stability of the continent, exactly what we've done together to support Ukraine
2:05:35
for the fighting against terrorism, even for cooperation between intelligence services and so on
2:05:43
We have lots to do for our own security and for the stability of the continent, I think
2:05:48
And we are open to work with the UK. Has Euroscepticism in France diminished substantially as a consequence of looking over the channel
2:05:59
I don't think so. I don't think so. Because in France, the same people, nationalists and populists, use exactly the same argument against Brussels
2:06:11
It is not true. The proof is made in the UK that it is not true. It is a lie
2:06:18
Part of the solution now in Brussels And we need to confirm to consolidate to support Europe and change Europe at the same time but to remain together because it is clearly our national interest It is our national interest to be European in addition to be patriots
2:06:37
You've said, to the surprise of some observers, that you could not personally see any obstacle to the UK
2:06:44
keeping the pound, staying out of the euro, and also staying out of Schengen in the event of rejoining
2:06:51
I think the Polish foreign minister, Radek Sikorsky, has disagreed with you on that
2:06:57
Do you stand by your observation? Yes, yes. And it is my personal view
2:07:03
I think if the UK in the future, I don't know, far from now, to rejoin, the door is open
2:07:12
And in that case, we will open a new negotiation. But I think we have to take into account the fact that it will be a very exceptional and very particular case
2:07:22
The reason why I mentioned these two points. What are your abiding memories of that five-year negotiation period
2:07:30
What were you most perhaps surprised by? First, it was long, and in a certain sense, the Brexit has been for me and for many people
2:07:42
a school of patience. I've always been very respectful. It was sometimes very difficult to understand the domestic politics and how, for instance
2:07:54
Theresa May and her team failed to reach an agreement on the negotiation
2:08:03
three times. Was it it was doable but she couldn't sell it to
2:08:10
her own party? Yes. Did that surprise you? The gulf between the achievable
2:08:17
and the political was huge. Another surprise was the attitude of Johnson and some others
2:08:23
fighting against their own prime minister. But I don't want to make any comment
2:08:29
on the domestic policy. we have no, in France, we have no lessons to give
2:08:35
Your own tenure as Prime Minister was short enough, I think, to stand comparison with the British model
2:08:43
To be frank, it is one of the lessons of my term as Prime Minister of France
2:08:49
to have a lot of compassion and comprehension towards a Prime Minister
2:08:54
who lost his majority. Will you run for president? Do you think
2:09:01
The point is not, the question is not this one. The question is how we will be able to have one single candidate for the center right
2:09:10
It is my main goal today. I have no personal fibrillity, to be clear
2:09:17
I just think that to avoid disaster of a duel at the second round of the presidential election
2:09:26
between the far right and the far left, we must be able to have one single candidate
2:09:33
And so I don't tell you who will be this candidate, but I'm working for one single program
2:09:40
between the centre and the right, the Republican right is my party
2:09:45
and I'm working for one candidate. Every element of this conversation, which goes back 10 years
2:09:51
is underpinned by instability and disruption in both of our countries. How big a role do you think that Russia has played in that process
2:10:03
Everybody knows that we face in the daily political life in each of our countries
2:10:10
and it was the case for the referendum in Brexit. It will be the case for many elections everywhere in Europe
2:10:15
we face foreign interferences from Russia obviously but also from the United States and from China
2:10:26
also. So it's a reason why we need to be strong and to be independent
2:10:31
Have you been surprised by Donald Trump's conduct in his second term
2:10:37
Yes because it is the very very first time since 60 years that
2:10:41
the US president The President of the United States and the United States do not support the European project the very first time
2:10:50
So we have to accept this new situation and to draw the lesson
2:10:57
which is in any case to be independent, to be able to do for ourselves what nobody will do at our place
2:11:06
So it could be a blessing in disguise in the long term because the dependency is over
2:11:13
and Europe becomes more self-sufficient. First of all, do not confound or confuse
2:11:19
the current president of the United States with the Americans. Yes, of course
2:11:24
In any case, Mr. Trump will leave in two or three years or four years
2:11:30
and the United States will be still there as ally and friends
2:11:37
So, but in any case, we need to be less dependent for our energy, for our security, for our food
2:11:44
It is the right lesson to draw from the Russia's aggression against Ukraine
2:11:51
and also what happened in the Middle East for the moment. How worried are you for the future and security of Europe
2:12:00
I'm worried if we are not able to join our efforts to cooperate
2:12:05
and to make the financial and technical and military efforts which are necessary to be independent
2:12:13
My goal is to be able to build a strong European pillar
2:12:18
inside the framework of NATO. But we need to be more stronger and more independent
2:12:26
And finally, Monsieur Barnier, I think that the summit between the EU
2:12:31
between the Commission and the UK will be postponed because of Andy Burnham's arrival in Downing Street
2:12:38
Two questions. Do you have any personal knowledge of Andy Burnham And how optimistic can I be as a British Europhile that this resettlement will be substantive and significant I don know personally Andy
2:12:55
Burnham but I was told, I am told that he's friendly with Europe and I think it
2:13:04
will be on the same line as Keir Starmer to increase our relation. The point is we
2:13:09
We have so many to do together. If it's clear that there will be no cherry picking in the single market
2:13:16
if this clear line is understood by everybody, I think we have a lot to do to increase our cooperation for defence, security and external policy
2:13:27
Actually, I said one more. One of our front pages today, one of our newspapers
2:13:32
one of the more excitable newspapers has a front page which says
2:13:36
now give us a proper Brexit. So after 10 years, a significant part of our media and our political establishment
2:13:45
still believes in a Brexit that I think was always mythical. I know the argument of the populist and nationalist about the Brexit
2:13:53
but the Brexit had been delivered properly and it was clear. It was clearly the decision of the UK people and Mr. Farr and his friends
2:14:03
to obtain the Brexit and we have delivered the Brexit, defending in our side the single market
2:14:11
James O'Brien on LBC. It is the time. It was a slightly poignant conversation in many ways, wasn't it
2:14:18
That old line in Rabi Burns about to see ourselves as others see us
2:14:23
It's quite a gift, isn't it? And it ain't pretty. Just in the interest of Brexit myths that are still around
2:14:29
I've heard some people claim today that we wouldn't have been able to conduct our COVID-19 vaccine rollout
2:14:35
if we hadn't left the European Union. that's a lie just so you know it's a complete lie there was absolutely nothing about european
2:14:42
union well we were still i think technically members at the time weren't we but either way
2:14:45
there was absolutely nothing about um the european union membership that that legally obliged
2:14:51
any members to join the joint procurement scheme anyway back to the glory days ashley and pinner
2:14:57
speaks for so many when he insisted in october of 2016 that the main reason to leave the european
2:15:03
union was because of all those pesky laws well i i believe the argument is there's multiple
2:15:09
arguments immigration they've got controlled immigration but again it's not about it's not
2:15:15
about you know i'm not xenophobic i you know i'm not totally multicultural i've got a family
2:15:19
in america in in bermuda in in spain and all immigrants yeah well immigrants are fine you know
2:15:27
it's there's nothing wrong you know they're the same as me and you looking for the best future
2:15:31
for their family. But it's not about that. It's about the control. It's about our
2:15:34
Prime Minister not having to succumb to the EU saying that he can't or she can't do anything
2:15:41
I mean, it's the fact that we, you know... And that's fine. I've got
2:15:45
no beef with you. If immigration's all you've got, then you're the cliché. You're the walking cliché
2:15:51
But what's interesting, Ashley, and I hope you won't take this the wrong way, what's interesting is that you spend five minutes pretending that
2:15:57
you've got proper political arguments or economic understanding, and then as all of those claims fall away, you're just left with foreigners
2:16:05
No, no, definitely not. How has immigration damaged your life, would you say, in its current form
2:16:10
Well, obviously, being a trade, immigration has pulled prices. No, not for electricians
2:16:19
There's scant evidence that for completely unskilled labour, it might have subjected some wage compression in the care home industry
2:16:26
and maybe unskilled labour on working sites, but there's actually a shortage of qualified electricians in this company
2:16:30
country, which is probably why you've gone self-employed. So it's not that, is it
2:16:34
Yeah, it's, well, plasterers, plumbers, electricians... Yeah, but you're an electrician. I'm asking, all skilled labour is actually a shortage at the moment
2:16:41
That's one of the reasons we can't build as many houses as we need to. So just in terms of Ashley and Pinner and the damage that uncontrolled mass immigration
2:16:47
has done to your life, just give me the headlines. Walking through the city centre and seeing mobs of immigrants
2:16:59
not willing to integrate. Walking through the centre of Pinner and seeing mobs of immigrants not willing to integrate
2:17:07
Plymouth. Plymouth. Stand by call. Plymouth. Okay. Not Pinner. And how do you think leaving the European Union
2:17:15
is going to disperse those mobs, Ashley? I think we'll have more control over how..
2:17:22
But they're already here, mate. Yeah, but we'll have more control to integrate
2:17:27
They're here. So those mobs that upset you so much as you walk through town and see these mobs of immigrants refusing to integrate
2:17:33
now that we're going to leave the European Union, what's going to happen to the mobs? I believe that we can integrate them because we have the choice and we have the authority to do what we like without..
2:17:49
So you've cast your vote because you don't want these people here in the numbers that they're here in
2:17:55
but you think that by doing that, you're going to make them more amenable to integration and friendliness
2:17:59
So you deliver a message to someone saying, we don't like you, and you think that makes them more likely to be your friend
2:18:05
It's not about liking anyone. Well, you don't like the mobs in the middle of town, do you
2:18:10
No, and that goes with mobs of Englishmen as well. It doesn't matter on race
2:18:15
Okay, so it's got nothing to do with immigration then. It's just mobs you don't like
2:18:21
Yeah, I just don't like mobs. And bananas. and all those laws that you can't name
2:18:29
Let's just finish with a quick question. When you said it's going to be a short-term economic hit
2:18:33
how long is short-term? I think it's going to be under five years
2:18:38
Every single one of your customers is going to be worse off than they needed to be for half a decade
2:18:43
and you're happy with that? I'm happy, yeah. I'm happy with that
2:18:47
All right, mate. Let's not fall out. And I hope the business goes... I really do. I hope it booms
2:18:51
even though you voted to have fewer customers and less money in the pockets of the ones you've
2:18:55
already got um 1252 is the time of course plymouth was indeed the scenes of um mob violence after
2:19:03
during the farage riots back in 2024 but i not quite sure that was the kind of mob he was complaining about the ones that were throwing bricks at the police and setting fire to things And of course all the faces of the mobs he would have been talking about would have been white which brings us to Stephen Harrow
2:19:18
and a call on the 8th of December 2018. I live in Harrow. Yeah. When I go down to Harrow
2:19:25
and this is not being racist, James, because that term is so easily used and very loosely used
2:19:31
When I go down to Harrow, and I've lived here for 30 years, I walk into Harrow Shopper Centre, and I swear to God, I don't know where I am
2:19:40
I've got Polish, Romanians, Bulgarians sitting outside coffee houses doing sod all day
2:19:47
I've got every nationality under the sun, and it's lost its identity
2:19:52
When I go into Norfolk Park Hospital, and I went in there three Sundays ago because I had to go in an emergency
2:19:58
I walked into the accident and emergency, as I said to your researcher, 120 people in there
2:20:05
I was lucky if I saw three or four white faces. It's okay if you live there. Now, that is racist
2:20:10
No, it isn't. No, that last bit is. It's realistic. No, no, it isn't, because you're forming an opinion of people or their value based on their colour
2:20:18
There are people who don't have white faces who are just as British as you and me, Steve. Perhaps there are, James
2:20:23
Well, no, they all are. Name me the European Union. Steve, mate, let's not do this. Let's do it nicely
2:20:30
Just tell me the European Union country that is populated by non-white people
2:20:35
Couldn't tell you. Well, have a go. Have a little think. Say the question again
2:20:39
The European Union countries, because we're talking about your reasons for leaving the European Union
2:20:43
and then you mentioned the fact that there weren't any white people in Northwick Pass Hospital. So which European Union countries are essentially non-white
2:20:51
Probably none. So why are you talking about those people, then? All right, all right. Let's backtrack
2:20:57
Yeah, let's, mate. I'm happy to let you do that. No, let's backtrack. But it is still a valid point, James
2:21:04
Not in the context of a conversation about the European Union, Steve. And I'm afraid that if you are judging people according to their skin colour, then you are
2:21:11
And I say this with love and reluctance. Then you are indulging in racial prejudice
2:21:15
But James... Because I don't care what colour you are. I'm never going to say to Beth at the end of the programme
2:21:21
We had too many black people on today, or we had too many white people on today. But it's not all about white people, white English people
2:21:31
We're going off tangent. No, you did, mate. I'm just reining you back in again, so crack on
2:21:36
It's not all about the racist issue. It's just about the fact that the country has lost its identity
2:21:43
What does that mean? Well, what does it mean? It means that what I've just said..
2:21:48
You just said that you don't like seeing brown faces at the hospital. Okay, no
2:21:52
Is it right then, James? Let's give another example. I might be digging myself a big hole, but..
2:21:57
I'll pull you out, mate, I promise. Right, but the point I'm trying to make
2:22:01
if you went down to my local, and I'll give you an absolute point here
2:22:05
if you went down to my local supermarket, I won't name which one it is, okay
2:22:11
Yeah. And one of my sons tried to get a job down, or two of my sons tried to get a job down there in a few years
2:22:16
when they were in between university and going from college to university
2:22:23
At one point, James, there was 23 tills open, and 22 of them, okay, had Indians or Pakistani people
2:22:33
We're talking about the European Union, Steve. No, but what I'm trying to say, James, is this is where it's all coming from
2:22:39
And when I mentioned this to the manager, okay, The manager said to me, we have to reflect the local community
2:22:47
And the point I'm trying to make, James, and you're trying to, to a degree, defend me, but to attack me, is, is that right, James
2:22:56
That is why people have voted out of Europe. Because we've got too many brown people on the tills in Harrow
2:23:02
No, it's not about having too many. What is it then, Steve
2:23:07
Just slow down a little bit. Because if you're not complaining about there being too many brown people
2:23:12
why do you keep talking about the number of brown people in the hospital and the number of brown people in the supermarket
2:23:17
The reason I'm saying that, James, is because that is why people voted to leave Europe
2:23:24
because of Great Britain... I don't disagree with you. No, it's not because of Great Britain losing its identity
2:23:30
It's because people are frightened of brown people. No, it's not about..
2:23:33
What difference does it make to me? Just help me out here, because I can kind of get my..
2:23:38
Just because I work on the phones every day, so I have no idea what colour anybody is
2:23:43
I could... Steve, stop talking. Stop talking. Just for a moment, my friend. All right
2:23:47
Why does it matter to you what colour the person that you buy your milk off is
2:23:53
Well, it doesn't matter the colour that I buy... the person I buy my milk off, James
2:23:59
But what... The point I'm trying to make is why people voted out of Europe
2:24:03
I'm not arguing with you. They voted out of Europe because they think there's too many brown people in their hometown
2:24:08
Is it unfair then, James, to say that when I mention what I said about the local supermarket..
2:24:17
And the hospital. And the hospital. But let's go to the supermarket. When I'm told that we have to reflect the local community, is that not racist, James
2:24:26
No, Steve. Ah, dear. And there it is. Of course, now, of course, we've got political parties in which you don't even get disciplined
2:24:36
for saying that there are too many brown and black faces on your televisions, in your adverts
2:24:41
That has now become normal. So there's a poignancy to Steve's contribution. Anyway, that's it from me for another day
2:24:46
All that remains is for me to remind you, because we've been celebrating the 10-year anniversary of Brexit
2:24:51
Just one moment, please. Oh, lovely. I'm going to have a pint of champagne now
2:24:57
A pint bottle of champagne. That was... Did that... Oh, that never happened either, did it
2:25:00
Do you remember when that was all they had? Well, we're going to have pint bottles of champagne
2:25:04
That never happened. That's the ultimate Brexit emblem in many ways. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player
2:25:11
or the LBC app where you can stay up to date with all the latest news
2:25:16
James O'Brien Daily, of course, podcasts and others available on that app
2:25:21
Download it now for free from your app store. Ben Kentish, lovely to see Ben in the office yesterday
2:25:26
is in for Tom Swarbrick at four, but now it's time for Sheila Fogarty. James O'Brien on LBC
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