Up next in 10
The ethical dilemma of the assisted dying debate | James O’Brien - The Whole Show
Apr 25, 2026
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 24th of April 2026. 00:00 - Do you want to live in a country where assisted dying is legal? 50:17 - Does Keir Starmer deserve more credit for rejecting Donald Trump? 01:26:44 – Daughter of murdered MP David Amess calls for Reform to suspend candidate who said politicians should be hanged - Benji Hyer, LBC's reporter 01:37:58 - What difference does a dyslexia diagnosis make? 02:02:06 – U.S. roundup - Simon Marks, LBC's Washington correspondent 02:24:38 – Full Disclosure: Michael Whitehal #jamesobrien #politics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
Three minutes after ten is the time. A very good morning to you
0:05
Has there ever been a more perfect example of a question or a subject that is binary, in essence
0:15
but incredibly complicated in reality than the assisted dying bill, the assisted dying story
0:22
the issue of assisted dying? Do you approve of it? Do you want it or not? Yes or no
0:28
and then of course reality kicks in and in many ways this highlights the dangers of populism
0:35
doesn't it simple answers to complicated questions because it's not it's not a simple
0:39
question even though at first glance it is binary um we can't currently even find much agreement on
0:45
why it has failed to pass its way through parliament has it been stymied by critics
0:51
and opponents at the house of lords level um where opponents of the bill are accused of delaying
0:57
tactics? Or is it the case that the bill as it stood when it arrived there was not sufficiently
1:02
substantive to provide the safeguards considered necessary by people who would otherwise be in
1:09
favour of it? Have the debates exposed further problems with the legislation, or have the
1:15
debates been used as delaying tactics to avoid the legislation altogether? It passed the House
1:22
of Commons by a majority of 55 originally, in principle, and then it cleared the Commons
1:30
on the 20th of June last year with a majority of 23. I don't know whether there's a word for this
1:39
but do you ever find that your view on something is created more by reaction to other people's
1:50
views than it is by a sort of organic formation of your own view. Does that make sense? I think
1:57
I could probably put that a bit better. It's as if I don't really know what I think about something
2:01
Very occasionally this happens until I listen to what other people think and that sort of frames me
2:07
or gives me what I need. Jones the engineer formerly of this parish, now of course known
2:13
on YouTube as Jones the pilot, he once said something very wise by accident. He once said
2:20
He hated the debates in the run-up to elections because the audiences weren't allowed to cheer or laugh or smile
2:28
And if he couldn't hear the audience cheering or clapping, then he didn't know whether a good point had been made or not
2:34
He didn't know what to think. And I tease him about that. But it's actually quite an interesting observation
2:40
Sometimes you need a bit of external impetus to kick in for your own thoughts and feelings to kick in on something
2:50
And on assisted dying, I'm a little bit embarrassed to tell you
2:57
that my opinion changes according to the last person that I spoke to
3:03
Let me give you an example. Well, let me tell you exactly what I mean. I have taken calls in the past from people whose parents died
3:11
of really painful deaths. and who are absolutely adamant that they should have been spared the agonies of their final days
3:19
or hours or weeks even. And I come off those calls convinced that assisted dying is not just acceptable but necessary
3:31
that it is the humane course of action. And then I might encounter somebody
3:37
I encountered someone relatively recently who described themselves to me as a proper Catholic
3:45
They said, I am a proper Catholic. And at that point, my alarm bells start ringing
3:49
I think that religion always veers into its least helpful territory when it involves telling other people what they have to do
4:00
And she was celebrating the imminent demise of the assisted diable because she said she was a proper Catholic
4:09
And I found myself thinking, well, I'm in favour of it then for different reasons
4:14
I'm not in favour of it because of the pain and the agony of people who would benefit from it
4:20
I'm in favour of it because I don't like the opponents. I don't like the arrogance of the opponents
4:26
who think that their religious beliefs should somehow prevent other people from making life choices
4:32
I mean it moves into the realm of abortion as well the two great debates
4:38
if you went to a Catholic school in the 1980s were euthanasia and abortion
4:44
because the church's teaching on both of them hinges upon the idea that life is not only sacred
4:49
but that it begins at the moment of conception and if you want to believe that
4:54
that's fine but you can't insist that everybody else has to live their lives
4:59
according to your unprovable beliefs I would usually argue. And the more you dig into this, or at least the more that you think about it
5:09
the more you realise how unhelpful it is to view it in a binary yes-no fashion
5:17
Adults expected to die within six months would be permitted to seek medical help to end their life
5:25
subject to certain safeguards. and that is now not going to happen after the House of Lords
5:32
for whatever reason historians of the future conclude to be the truth
5:38
because the House of Lords has essentially slammed the brakes upon the democratic decision of the House of Commons
5:46
and it was a moral vote as well, there was no partisanship or party lines
5:49
but it was pretty close. So the more I lean into the idea that this was pretty clear
5:55
the more I wonder why the vote was so close. And the answer is ethics
6:01
Not ethics. Ethics. The answer is ethics. The answer is something about morals
6:07
that are not necessarily born of unprovable religious beliefs but are born of first principles, philosophy, thinking
6:17
about humanity itself, thinking about human beings. And that's why I don't know if I..
6:27
Do I mean this? Let me think. I know what you're thinking. Why doesn't he do this
6:31
Why doesn't he work this stuff out before he comes on the radio? I'll do it as a question rather than a statement
6:36
How helpful is it? It's either the entirety of the debate or none of the debate, isn't it
6:46
How helpful is it to hear from people whose family members have suffered terribly in their last months
6:55
because the legislation looks only at six months, so let's say in their last weeks, days or months
7:00
How helpful is it to depend upon that testimony? Because it will obviously swing your pendulum pretty violently
7:08
but it doesn't necessarily mean that it would be morally or ethically justified
7:13
I want to know today what you think. That's all. And I really want to know why
7:19
and I think it would be wrong with me this is what I was wrestling with a
7:23
minute ago I would be wrong with me to say I don want to hear from you if your opinion is informed by personal experience because that would be not only a little bit wrong it would also be slightly at odds with the ethos of this entire programme
7:36
I am, as you know, always more interested in people capable of changing their minds
7:44
As a wise man once said, there is no point having a mind if you never change it
7:49
I spent some years thinking it was me that had said that, but it turns out Edward de Bono beat me to it shortly before he formed U2
7:54
I love that joke, by the way I love that joke you can tell I love that joke
7:59
because that's about the tenth time I've made it in the last six months but it probably needs explanation
8:04
which means it's actually probably not a very good joke but I'm always interested in swinging pendulums
8:09
or pendular, if you prefer because it's I mean, it's the most beautiful thing about having a brain, isn't it
8:16
using it, exercising it to work stuff out and to think things through
8:21
rather than to just take your instructions from your Uncle Bob's Facebook page
8:26
or your favourite broadcaster or a newspaper and not really know why you think something
8:31
you just know that you do. So, do you want to live in a country
8:35
where assisted dying is legal? I want your thoughts on what has happened here
8:45
0345 6060 973 is, as ever, the number that you need. on the question of the Lords essentially stymieing what happened
8:54
but it was only a majority of 23 in the first place, so there's clearly a lot of grounds for opposition to it
9:00
And I'd be very interested in examining those grounds. So tell me why you think what you think
9:06
but tell me first and foremost what you think about... Why have other countries..
9:11
Do we know? Why have other countries managed to implement this in effective ways
9:16
while we apparently can't? you heard Kim Ledbeater a moment ago talking about an extraordinary number
9:22
of tweaks and changes that have been imposed, more than 1200 amendments were tabled in the
9:28
House of Lords, which I think is a record for any bill
9:32
introduced by a backbencher and now we're going to get to the end of term
9:38
after 17 months since the original vote we're going to get to the end of term and
9:43
it ain't going to be law It is 13 minutes after 10
9:48
You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. And I just want to, probably for the last time in a while
9:55
given that the legislation is now heading for the buffers, I just want to know why you do or don't want to live in a country
10:03
where assisted dying is legal. I think I probably need more help with the arguments against
10:10
than I do with the argument. I mean, the argument for is almost always going to involve
10:15
I watched someone die in horrible circumstances and I don't think anybody should have to go through that
10:20
and I think it is wrong and arrogant of me to suggest or to think as I did before I came on air
10:25
that the conversation should be conducted without those contributions of course they're crucial, they're key
10:30
but if you want to have a crack at and bring religion into it if you want
10:35
but if you want to have a crack at reminding us or explaining why there is opposition to this idea
10:43
or why you are opposed to it. I would be really interested to hear what you have to say
10:49
My view, such as it is, and every time you think there's a relatively simple way
10:55
into some of these issues, you expound it, you articulate it, and you realise that it's not simple at all
11:00
I'll show you what I mean. My view was that if you are of sound body
11:06
then you are able to end your own life. You know? I mean, I don't need to go into details
11:12
or draw you a picture, but if you are physically competent, if you are able
11:18
then you are free to do this in a variety of ways
11:24
And I think, oh yes, that's my opinion. But then I remember I was raised a Catholic
11:28
and taking your own life is a massive sin. You're not supposed to be buried on hallowed ground
11:36
if you committed suicide, if you took your own life. So even if my faith were unquestioning, then even my simple attempt at answering the question on the grounds that, well, if I wasn't bed-bound, I'd be able to do it
11:51
So why should a bed-bound person be prevented from doing it? So even that doesn't stand up to the simplicity test
11:58
And then, of course, it involves somebody else helping. And that's where my opposition, such as it is, comes from
12:05
I mean, it's 52-48, but it's too serious a topic to indulge the infernal ratio
12:11
I don't know that anybody should ever, even if they want to do it
12:16
I don't know. I used to be fascinated as a kid by executioners
12:22
Probably because I spent so long studying Henry VIII. But also, was it Pierpoint
12:26
Was Albert Pierpoint the last hangman in this country? It's a memorable name
12:31
I was always struck by that. I mean, how does that process, how does that sit with you for the rest of your life
12:38
I think he wrote a memoir. And that idea that nobody should really be put in that position
12:43
where they are taking money to end somebody else's life. And that's a view
12:47
That's an opinion. It's not something I can back up with facts or statistics or evidence
12:54
It's just one of the things that I struggle with. So I'll finish this introduction where it began
13:02
And you can't think of a subject that proves more powerfully that what appears to be a binary question is often anything but
13:12
Because I say to you, should you be able to enlist medical help to end your life
13:19
if you're terminally ill and you've got less than six months to live
13:22
and you say to me, yes or no, and then I say, well, hang on a minute, let's have a think about this
13:29
Have you considered X? Have you considered Y? Have you considered Z
13:35
And you realise it's probably not, or possibly not quite as binary as you thought
13:42
17 minutes after 10 is the time. Let's get the phone lines open. So, I mean, any angle you want on this
13:46
because there's a reason why these issues are beloved of university and sixth form debating societies
13:56
It's because they're really interesting. but of course they are also matters of life and death for people directly affected and what this
14:04
means we mustn't forget is that some people are now being sentenced to six months of agony
14:11
that if the house of lords had not held up this bill they would have been spared so i don't know
14:20
how many people would have availed themselves of this opportunity had the legislation passed but
14:25
anybody who finds themselves in that situation in the next year or so is being sentenced to six
14:31
months of unnecessary agony and misery their families are being sentenced to six months of
14:36
avoidable agony and misery watching a loved one die in hideous circumstances and politicians had
14:43
the opportunity to spare all of those people all of that pain and the house of lords has
14:50
binned it ah man if you under any doubt at all about the complex or nuanced nature of this I hope you not now Tell me what you think 0345 6060 973 And of course tell me why you think it
15:09
James O'Brien on LBC. 20 minutes after 10 is the time. The Assisted Dime Bill is set to run out of time today
15:18
as the Lords hold the final debate on the subject. and that means it will not become law despite the House of Commons
15:24
passing the bill that was necessary for that to happen 17 months ago
15:30
Your thoughts, actually? I could have just done that, couldn't I, 20 minutes ago
15:34
I could have just read out what I just said to you then and then added your thoughts and said the phone number
15:39
But that would be denying you the joy of a lengthy introduction
15:43
or even a monologue. Tamara is in Telford. Hello, Tamara. Hello, James. We've spoken before
15:50
I know we have. You're famous. You occupy a very interesting room in the palace of my mind, Tamara
15:57
And do you know that you came up yesterday on my social media
16:01
I'm just going to see if I can find it. Because the question that you answered, I think the last time you rang in
16:08
was about the existence of a constituency of people who fit that..
16:14
Here it is. Yeah, there you go. So someone posted, let's discuss this person with genuine concerns about immigration
16:20
who isn't a racist and is worth listening to. It's a creature constantly on the tongue of our sovereign politicians
16:26
dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. And someone replied, I don't know any, but I did hear one called Tamara from Telford on James O'Brien's show
16:32
There you go, you're famous. There you go, I'm famous. Anyway, that's not why you rang in today
16:37
No, it isn't. I have personal strong feelings on this issue, James. Okay
16:43
Tell me why and tell me what they are. 29th of March 2012, my late husband woke up and he couldn't move
16:53
He'd had a brain hemorrhage during the night. We went to hospital. They told me he wouldn't survive
17:03
We all said our goodbyes and he did. He died in August 18
17:08
But he was severely disabled from that point. he was hemiplegic he was wheelchair bound and there were lots of occasions james where he went
17:20
from a very independent man to being totally dependent he said tam just leave the tablets
17:25
on the table and yeah and that's how i could cope with the physical those times were and i was his
17:32
sole carer. So I'm very conflicted. Deep down, I believe in an assisted
17:38
dying bill. I do. But the vulnerability I saw in that man, had he had people around
17:46
him that didn't want to care, it was hard work. For six and a half years
17:50
I didn't sleep more than three hours a night because I had to turn him
17:54
I had to make sure he didn't get pressure sores, I had to care for him. If he had a family
18:00
or just people around him, who didn't want that, couldn't afford to put him in the home or the care
18:09
in his vulnerable moments, you would have believed he didn't want to be here
18:13
But they were just vulnerable moments. So there has to be very high levels of safeguarding
18:19
So you can see why I'm conflicted, because I do deep down believe
18:23
there has to be an option for somebody in the position where they don't want to go through the suffering
18:28
but there has to be really strong safeguards for it not to be taken advantage of
18:33
and that's where I'm. I don't believe the current bill had enough safeguards
18:38
And that means that the House of Lords have acted, or the members responsible for the legislation not passing
18:45
have acted both in good faith and correctly in your view and yet..
18:49
I'm not sure because some of their reasoning isn't my reasoning. Can I ask you a question that might be a bit tricky to answer? Yes
18:58
You can ask. No, I am. I'm just trying to get my words right
19:03
I'm not... Because what you describe, many people might say, well, that's no life at all
19:11
I can answer that. And yet, you know that he wanted to live that life with you
19:17
I can absolutely answer that. Go on then. Thank you. In the first year
19:23
it was all about getting his head round it. Yeah, yeah. I paid for a private neurophysio because they told me he'd never sit up, he'd never stand up
19:33
By the end of the first year, he could stand up. He couldn't walk. He'd take a couple of steps with me, but he couldn't walk
19:39
He fought hard, but he had his down moments. And one day he said, you know, this isn't a life, I can't do what we want it to do
19:46
Well, me being me, and you've spoken to me, you know, I'm pretty determined
19:50
He'd always said to me, James, he'd wanted to go to Russia, but we'd never quite made it there
19:56
I took him to Russia. Gosh. We went on a cruise. It was the easiest way of doing it. Yeah
20:02
But I showed him we could have a life. It was a different life, and it was probably harder on me than him
20:09
But... Yes. He was my husband. When he died, we'd been together 37 years
20:14
You don't give up on that, but not everybody has that. So we did have a life
20:19
That's a fascinating perspective, you know. And what if... Yeah, you didn't
20:23
It was harder for him, because at 67 years of age, that's when it happened to him
20:29
Would you say you don't have a life if you'd have been born into that wheelchair? Of course you do
20:34
But they have a lifetime to get... That's all they know and get used to
20:39
He just had to get used to a different type of life for those six and a half years that he survived
20:45
That's beautifully put. Thank you. I mean, that's extraordinary. The way that you're thinking simultaneously
20:53
about your own personal experience. and about the path not taken, you know, the other you and the other life
21:00
in which you wouldn't have had the resources, both human resources and material resources
21:06
and the people in that situation may end up taking a decision that they wouldn't take
21:09
if they were in yours, and palliative care as well. It wasn't easy. Palliative care as well
21:14
You know, in a world where palliative care was perfect, this question would feel different as well, wouldn't it
21:21
Yes, yes, it would. and I was lucky in that I'm a resourceful woman
21:28
I'm a very determined woman. And I advocate. But people who don't have that
21:39
they can be pushed down certain paths. I've seen it. They told me I'd never get him home, James
21:47
And if you'd made your decision that day, you might have arrived
21:51
some other people might arrive at a very different decision in that circumstance than the one you
21:55
arrived at, which I sense was to prove them jolly well wrong. He was my husband. If I'd have had to
22:01
have sold everything I possessed to get him home and cared for in the manner he deserved for his
22:07
dignity, I would have done that. Do you know, you rang in to talk, oh, you've set me off now
22:14
ringing in to talk about assisted dying and ending up almost writing an ode to marriage
22:18
Well, ode to marriage, ode to Love He was my soulmate But also he begged me on occasions Now had I have believed And this is why I believe in assisted dying had I have believed he couldn have any quality of life
22:35
had I have believed he was in pain that he couldn't bear, I would have given him those tablets
22:42
As an act of love? Yes. The final act of love, in fact
22:46
Yeah. We had a pact that if he ever was on a machine keeping him alive
22:53
I was to turn it off. We had those conversations long before he was ill
22:58
You, I mean, you will know this, that the legislation as it stood was only going to look at people with a terminal diagnosis
23:04
and six months or less to live, albeit, as you've reminded us
23:10
sometimes a diagnosis or a prognosis can turn out to have been wrong. Other countries go much further than that, of course
23:17
Other countries, there's a story in the newspapers at the moment about a woman who lost her son, I don't know if you've seen it
23:21
and who is absolutely healthy, but just doesn't want to live anymore
23:25
So she's off to a clinic in Switzerland. The more I listen to you, the more I wonder whether
23:32
and some of the contributions in the House of Lords seem to have been slightly disingenuous or slightly obstructive
23:38
I think Tanni Gray Thompson has argued that case very powerfully. But the more I listen to you, the more I wonder whether it is actually
23:44
an almost impossible task to put in place the safeguards and loopholes
23:49
that would reassure the people that need reassurance. I think it would never be perfect
23:56
but I think there are ways and means of those safeguards being put in place
24:00
Yeah. I mean, there have to be. Other countries do it. That's what I mean, yeah. Other countries do it
24:05
although we can't know for sure that they do it to the satisfaction or to the threshold that we would like to see in place
24:10
Thank you. And I really mean thank you. Thank you for a whole bunch of reasons, Tamara
24:15
because somehow you've managed to turn a very sad story into a very uplifting experience listening to you tell it
24:22
And that love is palpable. It may be an odd thing to say, but I hope you don't mind me saying
24:28
you were both very lucky to have found each other. Absolutely. I miss him every day
24:33
I bet you do. The statement I would make about it's not about what you have
24:39
I would give up everything for five more minutes. Oh, Tamara. You were already a legend on this programme
24:46
I'm not sure about that. Your legendary status now confirmed for the ages
24:50
Tamara, have a lovely weekend. Thank you so much. Half past ten is the time
24:54
Dominic Ellis has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. 10.33 is the time
25:00
I think that one of the pushes towards retirement, should that day ever dawn for me
25:07
will be when I don't have that sense of a story being absolutely fascinating
25:12
but I can't quite see the phone in. Because normally that's when I put my thinking cap on
25:16
and try to come up with a way that we could talk about it together, rather than just leave it languishing in the news bulletin
25:22
And that mention in that news bulletin there of the American, the US
25:28
the Trump regime looking at ways to punish fellow NATO members for not joining them in what will almost certainly turn out to be war crimes
25:37
It's an extraordinary turnaround, isn't it? But the Falkland Islands, I don't know how old you are
25:42
I'm 54. Is it 54 or 53, Keith? I can never remember
25:46
I know it's extraordinary I look much younger but it's all the moisturiser
25:52
I belong to a generation for whom the Falklands has an extraordinary status
25:58
my godfather I remember had a map on the kitchen wall and his children
26:03
some of my best friends growing up would have pins in it tracking the progress of the task force
26:08
from Portsmouth I suppose to the South Atlantic moving the pins as the task
26:15
every morning over breakfast. They'd move the pins on the wall chart and we went to stay with them
26:20
And it was, you know, a fairly binary battle. It was a bit straightforward
26:26
British people having their territory invaded by foreign soldiers and British forces
26:31
turning up to repel the foreign soldiers. It had a sort of commando comic simplicity to it
26:36
that also influences my generation. But I can't see a phone in because I don't know what..
26:42
I don't even know what it means. What would they be able to do, the United States
26:46
They didn't even help us repel the Argentine invaders when the Falklands were occupied
26:53
albeit briefly, by General Gautieri's mob. What would the Americans be able to do
26:56
They can hardly invoke the International Criminal Court. They're not even a member of it. If they were, they'd have had to arrest Benjamin Netanyahu
27:02
last time he visited... Well, he's visited Donald Trump, I think, more times than Father Christmas
27:07
but he would have been under facing threat of arrest. so I don't know what it is they would be able to bring to bear on that story
27:15
but it is an odd one we'll find out a little bit more about it later in the programme
27:19
but we are talking about assisted dying legislation or not as it were
27:23
because it ain't going to happen now after I think a curious mixture of good faith concern
27:30
about safeguards and perhaps rather bad faith obstructionism for in some cases very religious reasons
27:39
And as I've told you about seven million times, religion for me becomes problematic when it involves some people telling other people how they have to live their lives, despite the fact that the people being told how they have to live their lives do not share the religious beliefs of the people telling them
27:55
Jackie's in Northampton. Jackie, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. I'm a first-time caller, so I'm rather nervous
28:01
Well, you're doing brilliantly already, Jackie, so I don't know what you're nervous about
28:05
Thank you. My main thoughts about the assisted dying bill is it's personal choice
28:13
And by not voting it through, you're taking away personal choice. Now, people that disagree with it can disagree with it. That's their option
28:22
Yes. But they're taking away the people that do agree with it. They're taking away their choice
28:27
They would say, or some people would say, that they're not doing that
28:32
because some people would sort of have the choice made, whether they were making the choice themselves
28:38
in unsatisfactory circumstances. So, I mean, the point Tamara made about some people choosing this path
28:45
because they're not getting the kind of support and love that Tamara's late husband obviously got
28:50
gave me a little bit of pause. It's as if, because choice is a binary option
28:54
it's a yes or no. And the more I think about this, the less binary it actually becomes
29:00
Yeah, I understand exactly what you mean, and I understand Tamara's point
29:05
But again, regardless of why you choose, you know, why you choose to take that path
29:11
that's still your choice. And you're always going to get, okay, there may be unscrupulous things that happen
29:17
but you're going to get that with or without the assisted dying bill anyway. Yes, I suppose
29:22
You know, if somebody thinks, I want to end my grandmother's life
29:26
because, for whatever reason, if they're that type of person, they're going to find a way whether we have an assisted dying bill or not
29:33
Well, some will, some won't. I think that the threshold of the law is probably quite a big deterrent
29:38
for some people who are sort of dreaming of matricide or patricide
29:41
or whatever the grandparent equivalent of that is. I haven't got the Latin, Jackie. I ain't got the Latin
29:47
Me neither. Me neither. But I guess what neither of us know
29:53
is what would these people in the House of Lords say the kind of king of the loophole was
29:59
the king of the... concern that prompted them to stymie the legislation because we can agree in first principles
30:04
everybody should have that choice and people who are um people who are not really really ill have
30:11
that choice people who are physically able have that choice every day of their lives we all have
30:15
that we all have that choice and these people are denied that choice by their medical condition in
30:19
some ways but what would they say what would the lord or lady say if they had to leave all religious
30:24
arguments at the door, what would they say the big reason why this shouldn't
30:28
go ahead was? Again, who knows? They've put that many amendments in that they've obviously all
30:36
got a lot of different views. 1,200 amendments! Exactly. It's crazy. It does feel a bit unlikely
30:42
that, doesn't it? That they're all in good faith. Yes. It seems to me
30:46
like a certain number of them have decided however they do it, they're not going to let this
30:52
go through and they've just done whatever they've done to stop it. But again, you know, it goes back to choice
30:59
I mean, I'll give you an example. My mother died a not very nice death
31:04
Now, she, but she went, I mean, it's a long time ago now, so it's fine
31:09
It is what it is. But she was a regular churchgoer. So had we had the choice at the time when she was dying
31:15
she may not have chosen to take it. But that's my point. She would have had the choice
31:21
But because we don't have that here, she didn't have the choice. Yeah, choice is a big thing, isn't it
31:26
It is a big thing. It's a very big thing. I sometimes think it's the most valuable commodity of all for humans
31:32
because money, they say money can't buy you love or it can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you choices
31:37
Yeah, it can. And the problem at the moment is if you want to go somewhere else
31:42
say, dignitas for argument's sake, you've got to have a fair amount of money in the bank to be able to do that
31:47
So, again, it's discounting people that don't have that money. So, therefore, they don't have that choice
31:53
Exactly, this is what I mean about it being not binary, not black and white
31:58
because that would apply to palliative care as well. So if you're getting really, really well looked after
32:04
you will have a better quality of life than someone who isn't, and that will inform your choice, that will influence your choice
32:09
I think we're probably nibbling at the edges of some of the concerns
32:13
that people like Baroness Grey-Thompson, Tanny Grey-Thompson, as she was, and still is actually, but she's also now a Baroness, have
32:22
not against the principle, but not convinced that the safeguards, the necessary safeguards, are in place
32:29
Jackie, there you go. For other people listening who think, I might ring in one day, but I'm a bit too nervous
32:35
what would you say to them, having made such a brilliant debut? Well, I would say this is my first time ringing in, so just go for it
32:41
There we are, you see. Thank you. Lovely stuff, Jackie. 10.40 is the time
32:45
Roger is in Wembley. Roger, what would you like to say? my wife was diagnosed in 2021 with a terminal brain tumor um the surgeons asked us at the time
32:56
did we want to know how long she had yeah and we said no we don't she said i don't want to die to
33:02
a timetable and so she's just but they said well we can do radio and chemo and steroids
33:08
which may slow it down so we said we'd try that and um she just got you know the progression
33:17
of the disease was really rapid. We didn't think it would be that quick
33:21
I did some research and I thought the general consensus was three to four months was the maximum you could survive
33:27
that kind of tumor. Now, I should point out, she was a very bright, strong, independent woman
33:35
But she started to lose the use of her legs. By the time I had a chair lifted into the house
33:41
she was too ill to be able to use it. And she was just going downhill fast
33:45
The problem was she was mentally totally aware of everything. She was a very bright woman
33:51
And we decided that she didn't want to die in a hospital or a hospice
33:57
So I promised her I'd look out, I'd take care of her at home. So I was with her 24 hours a day
34:03
And watch her just diminish physically. But she never lost any mental capacity
34:10
And that was the worst thing about it. So you know she became bed bound
34:13
she asked me so many times help me die she was a tall, blonde, beautiful woman
34:21
and she's just her hair fell out obviously, she described herself one day, she said
34:28
I want a mirror, and I just said she don't need a mirror so I showed her a mirror and she described herself as a football
34:34
with eyes with a steroid treatment anyway, my son had just told us
34:40
we were having our first grandchild She'd waited 40 years for us to have a grandchild
34:45
And she held on for six months and died five days before the baby arrived
34:51
We tried dignitas. It wasn't a previous caller mentioned dignitas. And it wasn't a financial thing
34:59
I'd have sold the house for another day with her. But it takes three months to do
35:04
I spoke to people who'd gone through that process. I'd looked into all that
35:09
She didn't have that much time left. And so I'm sitting there watching her, just in terrible pain
35:18
And yet couldn't do anything. Well, you did everything. Don't say that
35:23
You did everything. You surrounded her with love in her final day
35:28
You absolutely enveloped her with it, Roger. I just couldn't help her. That was the worst thing
35:34
I was sitting there going, legally or otherwise, if I'd been away
35:38
I said, look, we may not find something. And she said, no, you'll end up in jail
35:42
And she didn't want that for you. No, I understand. The previous call I mentioned, the choice
35:48
I think it really needs to be a choice. And I think the Lords who are voting against it
35:53
should spend five or ten minutes with somebody in that condition and then sit there and go
35:58
no, no, we can't allow this. It could be abused. God knows, just trying to get help
36:03
I have to go with insurance company. We had a critical illness policy
36:08
And that was exactly what it was for, the heart attacks or anything like that
36:12
And I spent three months arguing with them, saying, well, we need proof
36:17
I said, I've got proof from her GP, from the cancer unit
36:22
I've got departments of work and pensions all saying she is terminally ill and you're still not paying out on this policy
36:30
So it made it so hard. We struggled. And all the time, she's just getting worse and worse
36:37
and in a wheelchair taking her to cancer units for radio and chemo
36:41
that isn't going to work. And if she lost her mental capacity, it would have been easier
36:47
But she knew exactly what was going on. She knew exactly what was going on
36:50
Every stage of decline. Well, that's impossible. I mean, forgive me for getting my words, if my words are clumsy
36:59
but did it oscillate? I mean, did she have days when she begged you to help her diet
37:04
but also days when she wouldn't have wanted you to, or did it become the permanent state of affairs
37:08
It became the permanent. We had nurses visiting the house to give a pain kit, the shots, and so on
37:16
Sorry, I'm just going to get myself together. Hey, don't be daft. You take all the time you want
37:20
There's no need to get yourself together. I lost more or less the same time
37:24
with one of my closest friends in quite similar circumstances Sorry buddy Well I And we didn really have that desperation to go
37:37
but that's the whole point about choices. It isn't like a sentence, is it? It's not saying everybody in that condition will have to do it
37:44
It's simply saying some people will want to and some people won't. Tamara's husband, I don't think, would have wanted to, but your wife did
37:52
Yeah, I mean, she never once said, poor me. I mean, she never felt sorry for herself
37:57
but she hated the fact that, you know, she felt as though my life was being completely taken over
38:02
Which wasn't. I was happy for every second I spent with her. Of course you were
38:06
So she didn't waver, have good days and bad days. And as I say, it was beyond doubt that she, you know
38:15
that she had no future other than pain. I mean, the people in the House of Lords, some of them are telling the truth when they say they are in favour of the legislation in principle, but they don't think there are enough safeguards
38:30
But you're right, hearing your story just makes that sound like a sort of luxury that they probably shouldn't be indulging
38:36
You don't have to if you don't want to, but tell me a bit about the grandchild
38:41
She's fabulous. It would have made my wife so happy. Yeah, but it makes you happy to
38:48
Because we waited so long, you know. Our kids, for whatever reason, have two kids
38:53
but the grandchildren never came along. We were desperate to have, you know, have two grandkids
38:59
you know, have them for the weekend, fill them full of E-numbers and send them home bouncing off the walls, you know
39:05
Don't teach them colourful language. That's the tradition. We never had that chance
39:09
She never had that chance. That's cruel, isn't it? It's hard, but, yeah, so I just..
39:16
I know the safeguards are so important, but there has to be an element to where the patient can make that choice
39:23
She knows what it's doing to her. She was such an outgoing woman, social, just..
39:31
She's one of these people when you spend time with her, you came away feeling enriched by the experience
39:36
I bet, I bet. She was very special. Even on a coffin, she said
39:39
asked me to put a plaque on the bottom of her coffin. We promised 10, 25 years earlier
39:45
plaque on the bottom of her coffin that said, does my bum look big in this? What a lovely thing
39:55
We gave her the funeral she'd always wanted, which was the only thing, the last thing I was able to do for her
40:01
I wish you wouldn't beat yourself up like this. I hope it's not inappropriate for me
40:04
No, I don't, but I just... No, good, because you did everything. I know that you wish you could have done that other one thing
40:09
but what you did was extraordinary and exemplary and inspirational to listen to
40:14
I just feel bad for the people who are going through this and know how badly
40:18
they must need to give it to the ones they love to escape that final release
40:25
instead of just looking forward for months and months of pain I hear you, you're a good man Roger
40:30
and a great husband and I bet you're a brilliant grandad as well I try
40:34
you take care it's 10.48 James O'Brien on LBC 51 and I mean if you didn't know it
40:43
before than you do now, some of the stories that prompt other people's opinions with regard to
40:49
assisted dying, some of the experiences that they have gone through, make it look like a slam dunk
40:56
subject. They do make it look like the simplest question in the world to answer. And yet
41:01
as everybody acknowledges, it isn't. But there must be an answer to the question of why we have
41:09
failed, why our legislature has failed to enact legislation that other countries have
41:16
managed to. Maybe other countries don't provide the model that people like Baroness
41:20
Gray Thompson want to see. They don't actually have the Luke Poles in place. There's no
41:25
requirement even to be ill in some countries. Switzerland, for example, if you want to avail yourself of
41:31
assisted dying. So it's easy to hear a case that makes you go, well, that's wrong
41:39
they should have been offered that choice but of course legislation is about every possible case
41:46
not just about the ones that appear to be it well incredibly i think in in the cases that we've had
41:51
today incredibly straightforward extraordinary amounts of love coming in for for roger now and
41:56
and for tamara earlier and um i just add mine to the pile if i may because um not only did you
42:02
speak in ways that felt incredibly moving you also reminded us of what what what a magical thing a
42:10
wonderful marriage can be alison is in fulcox alison what would you like to say yeah i found
42:16
you the last time um that you spoke about this and um have you changed your mind i don't know
42:23
i'm i'm i'm kind of it's as you say it's such a complicated thing i still think that um and
42:31
Tamara said it, a life worth living. So from the outside, what makes a life worth living
42:39
And most people are most afraid of not having capacity of being felt by dementia or having severe learning disabilities
42:50
But in fact, I think we have to be really, really clear that every life, every life matters
43:00
every single life. The capacity, I'm so sad for Roger. You lost your friend
43:08
I lost my beloved sister to this, to the same illness. And she would have chosen to stay as long
43:16
as she possibly could. She was surrounded by love. She stayed at home
43:20
She was surrounded by her children. My sister went down and helped care for her as well
43:26
by her friends who are nurses. I mean because I wouldn't dream of saying she shouldn't have been
43:34
allowed to do that but you're close to saying that people who
43:39
want to go the other way shouldn't be allowed to go I actually don't want to say that
43:46
No I know you don't but that's where you are Yeah so
43:50
it comes down to grandchildren again so I have a grandchild who has
43:58
has profound and complex needs. Right. And he goes to a school with other children
44:03
who also have profound and complex needs. He's not independently mobile. He never will be
44:10
He doesn't communicate in a conventional way. He never will. And he is the light of my life
44:17
And you worry that this signals... And I worry because... ...a slippery slope or the opening of a door
44:24
I think it reinforces the views of people who don't know and are deeply uncomfortable with loss of capacity, with lack of capacity
44:37
It allows the conversation about what lives are worth living. Which ones
44:46
And this is the absolute heart of the debate. And thank you for handling it so sensitively
44:51
because it either a personal question or it a societal issue Yes And you don necessarily answer both questions in the same way You sort of think that person should have had that freedom
45:07
but society should not accommodate. So there's something that we certainly need to make sure
45:16
that when it comes to end of life, you can receive the best treatment
45:23
the most choice that is possible given how cruel and unfair it is for some of the things that
45:31
happen to people it's it's terribly unfair that roger's wife was struck so if we had perfect
45:36
palliative care in place your position would change again you you'd think if okay i have
45:41
perfect palliative care but i still don't want to be here anymore in that case that's that's
45:48
I think Roger's wife should have had the choice, really. But I also think that the people who ran the clock down on this
45:58
didn't behave honourably. Some didn't, some I think did. But it does seem unsatisfactory, doesn't it
46:05
You beautifully expressed some of the complexities here because it's facts, it's head versus heart sometimes as well, isn't it
46:12
And you can't leave your personal experiences at the door and your fears for your grandson are not addressed at all
46:18
by the legislation as it stands, but it doesn't mean you can turn off your concerns
46:23
about where this road might lead. I mean, people worry about dementia
46:29
It's cognitive stuff all the time. We're so uncomfortable as a society
46:33
in being comfortable with people who are different. I love the Assembly, by the way
46:39
If anybody hasn't watched it on ITV, watch it. Yes, it is. And some people will be a little bit impatient with you
46:45
for bringing these factors into a conversation about pretty clear legislation, certainly on the six months, the terminal illness diagnosis
46:53
but the lesson of other countries is that it doesn't necessarily stop there
46:58
So keeping the door shut becomes an attractive option. Alison, thank you. Thank you very much
47:06
Last word on this, I think, to Els, who's in Amsterdam. Els, what would you like to say
47:10
Hello, good morning. Hi. What I wanted to say was, here in Holland
47:17
our laws are so strict it is really not that easy to get euthanasia
47:23
people always think everybody can go walk to the doctor and say
47:27
I want to get killed and that's it and no no and
47:33
nothing like killing of children or whatever it is a very very
47:41
strict procedure and there are really more people who don't get euthanasia
47:50
because they are too late than people who will get it. We do have, of course, here
47:58
palliative care and my husband, he was in hospice with a brain tumor and
48:10
he was totally not okay anymore mentally. And in the hospice they took the freedom to kill him by palliative care
48:23
So that was a totally different subject and I've talked about it with the foundation for the
48:30
euthanasia here, the association. And I said I was so terribly shocked
48:38
because people are always arguing against euthanasia, which is just so strict
48:46
So the Dutch lesson then would be to show our lawmakers what loopholes and what strict regulations should be in place
48:56
Can I ask whether you've given any thought to your own circumstance
48:59
Yes, my papers are at my GP for years already. What, the papers saying what
49:08
And my papers that I want euthanasia, then I'm incurably ill. Or what is also very, very difficult here is to get euthanasia in case of dementia
49:27
Because I guess when you're in the grip of dementia, you're not in a position to make an informed choice about what you want
49:34
I want it to be difficult. I'm going to run out of time I'm afraid
49:38
else you've taken us a little bit beyond the news but thank you a very important contribution
49:44
and also I should say that if any of the issues that we've been discussing
49:48
affect you particularly then the Samaritans is always open 116123 or you can just search for them on the internet
49:56
and get in touch via other ways as well 116123 is the phone number
50:01
and that's why I think I'm going to end if you allow me where I began
50:06
by simply saying it looks like a binary question, for or against
50:11
But it really isn't, is it? It's 11.01. James O'Brien on LBC
50:17
Five minutes after 11, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I mean, I presume you know what WTAF stands for
50:25
or WTF. I have half a dozen instances of those initials in my inbox
50:31
in response to Donald Trump talking about his freedom to speak for England
50:36
or speak, isn't that the name of the Gary Sassgate play? Is it called Speak for... No, what's it called
50:42
Dear England, sorry. We did something on the special relationship yesterday on the programme, didn't we
50:48
And the fact that it doesn't exist anymore. But we haven't really done a Trump phone-in
50:52
in the... I mean, we went for a couple of weeks when we weren't really talking about anything else
51:00
And we're back in that space now where he's like a sort of..
51:03
I don't know, what is he? He's like a seal. honking in the corner of the room
51:07
but because he's the President of the United States of America, you have to report every honk as if it's headline news
51:14
What on earth would it even mean for the US to review Britain's claims
51:19
to the Falklands Islands? Oh, also, we did the one on Monday about him going mad as well
51:26
Now, that's all right, as you were. We haven't taken our foot off the Trump pedal
51:30
You'll be delighted to hear. Monday's thing, if you missed it, was really interesting
51:33
because you had three people from completely different political perspectives, all reaching for words like lost his mind, gone mad
51:43
sanity, questioning his sanity. One was Alan Rusbridger, who used to edit The Guardian
51:48
One was Matthew Parrish, who used to be a Conservative MP and writes a column for The Times
51:53
And one was the wrongest man in the world, Daniel Hannan, proving the principle of the stopped clock being right twice a day
51:58
Daniel Hannan, not long ago, one of the former Brexiters, insisting that Donald Trump was going to be brilliant for Britain
52:04
now writing for an American newspaper about how the man has clearly gone mad
52:09
And then he has moments when he doesn't seem mad, he just seems nasty, venal and mean
52:15
Making comments there about the Duchess of Sussex that were clearly designed to amuse his crowd of misogyny fans insulting the Duke of Sussex insulting Prince Harry Sadly right media in this country has created an environment where a foreign leader insulting a member of our royal family
52:35
a former war hero, will be acceptable. No one's going to be up in arms over at the Daily Mail
52:40
because they're usually at the front of the line of people attacking the Duke and Duchess of Sussex
52:47
But the line about the Falklands, coming quite soon after an interview that Keir Starmer gave yesterday
52:53
in which he insisted he would not be diverted or deflected from, acting in what he says is the best national interest
53:02
Seven minutes after 11 is the time. We have been giving the Prime Minister a hard time on this programme of late
53:10
and I stand by every single syllable of criticism, and I think his position now is weaker than it has ever been
53:18
with the imminent local elections possibly providing the sort of coup de grace
53:27
to this process of decline. We'll have to wait and see. But I think that the decision to stand against Trump on the Iranian question
53:40
is one of the greatest acts of leadership I've ever witnessed from a UK prime minister
53:46
but I'm beginning to wonder whether you agree. I'm looking at two stories today
53:52
One is that Starmer insists he's acting in the national interest after Trump criticism
53:57
You can tell that he's got this absolutely right because all of the people queuing up to insist that he got it absolutely wrong
54:03
have gone absolutely silent except the liars who are now pretending that they hadn't said things
54:08
like in Nigel Farage's case we should do absolutely everything we can to support Donald Trump
54:13
My Farage predictions are pretty grim, aren't they? Because they always come true
54:18
I told you that he would, as immigration figures began to plummet, he'd have to start attacking the unemployed
54:23
or having to start attacking people on benefits. Front page of the Daily Mail today
54:28
Nigel Farage attacking people on benefits. As a percentage of GDP, by the way
54:34
the welfare bill in this country has hovered around the 10% mark for most of your life
54:38
So it is only when the people who have spent the last 10 years
54:42
insisting that you should be furious about immigration, decide to move on to something else
54:46
that they start telling you to get furious about welfare or about benefits
54:50
As a percentage of GDP, the figure has been more or less steady for almost all of your life
54:55
but you wouldn't know that from the coverage. So Farage is going to do two things in the near future
54:59
I said to you, I think, a couple of weeks ago, it's going to shift a bit, if not a lot
55:03
depending on the small boats and depending on the immigration figures, which are plummeting at the moment
55:08
he's going to start attacking people on benefits and he's going to start pretending that he was never claiming to be best friends with Donald Trump
55:17
And he is now doing both of those things. I thought it would take a little bit longer, but, you know, here he is
55:26
Doing exactly what you can expect. And it's not hard to predict. Just ask yourself what a weasel would do
55:30
and then you'll get your answer of what is likely to happen next in this bizarre story arc of British politics
55:38
So I just want to talk about this standing up to Donald Trump, if you like
55:47
this refusing to do Donald Trump's bidding, using the Chilcot checklist at every turn when it comes to deciding
55:54
whether or not British military bases should be used to allow defensive missions
56:01
aimed at protecting residents of the region, or should be used as was originally requested
56:06
and this is obviously what has enraged Donald Trump, should be used for facilitating what is almost certainly
56:13
an illegal adventure in the Middle East undertaken by Benjamin Netanyahu, who of course would be subject to arrest were he to visit this country
56:23
and Donald Trump. I want to know whether you think Keir Starmer..
56:27
Two things, really. does Keir Starmer deserve more credit for rejecting Donald Trump
56:40
03456060973. We've talked a lot about the Mandelson mess and how he has handled elements of that quite appallingly
56:47
But the way in which he handled Donald Trump, I think, is pretty close to exemplary
56:54
And you can tell how cross Donald Trump is because we learned today that the US could review Britain's claim to the Falkland Islands
57:02
I want to have a two-pronged discussion about this. I'd love you to give me a ring now and tell me what America could do with regard to the Falkland Islands
57:12
because I actually don't know. So if you are better informed than me, or you are better educated than me
57:20
have a better understanding of the issues, I've heard it in the news bulletin, and I can read you the line
57:24
the US could review Britain's claim to the Falkland Islands as punishment for its lack of support for
57:30
the war on Iran. What does that mean? What would that mean? 03456060973. And given that it is so
57:40
completely at odds with both our perception of ourself as a nation, our perception of the so-called
57:46
special relationship that we were discussing yesterday, and the carefully cultivated attempts
57:51
to portray Keir Starmer as being weak or as being, what's the word that I'm looking for, as being ineffective
58:00
I wonder why he's not getting more credit for the determination and the resolution
58:07
with which he has told Donald Trump to sling his hook. So there are two questions here
58:12
The first is, do you think that he should be getting more credit? And if your answer to that question is yes
58:17
then I want you to tell me why you think he isn't. and I mean from people
58:22
I don't mean from the ludicrously biased right wing media and moving from that
58:28
to the reaction to Keir Starmer's resoluteness in this space what on earth does it mean
58:36
for the Pentagon to be compiling possible punishments for NATO allies after they refuse
58:44
to join this ridiculous war an entirely unprovoked war against Iran what on earth does it mean to read or to learn to discover that the US could review Britain's claim to the Falkland Islands
58:57
If you're military, tell me what do those words mean to you? I really want to know. I don't know what this means
59:05
The Falkland Islands, which most of us had never heard of until the Argentinians invaded
59:10
are populated entirely by British people. Parts of the Falkland Islands, I don't know if it's still like this
59:16
it's a little bit like going back in time. you know like red phone boxes and things like that were the iconography that were
59:23
broadcast to us when the argentines invaded in 1982 but the so for certain generations these are
59:33
absolutely huge words the the idea that the u.s could review britain's claim to territory that
59:41
is british and is populated entirely by british people albeit that it's in the middle of the
59:46
South Atlantic, Argentina's claim to it is no greater or more historic than ours, quite
59:52
the opposite, in fact. What does that mean? What do those words mean
1:00:00
US could review Britain's claim to the Falkland Islands. We're getting off quite lightly. They're
1:00:04
talking about chucking Spain out of NATO. The man's mad, isn't he? And this is what I find
1:00:10
really, what's the word that I want? I don't know if the word exists actually, because frustrating
1:00:16
doesn't even touch the sides. What I find utterly disgusting is the way that they all facilitate
1:00:22
him. So the Pentagon, you know, arguably the finest fighting machine in the history of humanity
1:00:28
is now sacking good people, as Simon Marks will talk to us about later
1:00:33
and populating the corridors of power with pusillanimous sycophants who are sitting there coming up with punishments for allies
1:00:40
because they refuse to join an illegal war. How far and how fast the United States has fallen
1:00:47
Because this is what we were talking about yesterday. It's not going to be enough if they get somebody half-decent back in the White House
1:00:52
The damage that has been done to everything is going to be generational
1:00:57
What are you doing in the Pentagon today? We're compiling a list of possible punishments for NATO allies who didn't support our war
1:01:03
It's pathetic. It's the politics of kindergarten. And yet it's real. An official told Reuters that the email said granting American forces access
1:01:14
basing and overnight flights, overflight rights from military bases, was just the absolute baseline for NATO
1:01:21
Displaying a complete ignorance of what NATO is, what NATO does, and what NATO is legally supposed to oversee
1:01:28
I mean, it's genuinely breathtaking. This happens to me a lot. I think, oh, I can't do this again
1:01:35
We've got a Trump story coming around, and I think, oh, I've had my fill now. I can't do this again
1:01:40
And then you dig into the detail of it, and you find your fury or your disgust, your outrage
1:01:45
being replenished and being refuelled on an extraordinary level. They are looking at ways of punishing NATO allies
1:01:52
for not joining a military escapade that is almost certainly illegal. That's where we are today
1:01:59
That's what they're doing in the actual Pentagon. A bloke, a department that is run by a man
1:02:06
who thought he was quoting the Bible when he read out Samuel L. Jackson's lines from Pulp Fiction
1:02:11
No wonder they've all gone silent. No wonder Farage is pretending he never said we should join the war
1:02:16
Baden-Ox reverse ferret was visible from space. Dick Littlejohn in the Daily Mail writing about old episodes of The Bill
1:02:22
instead of writing about why he was absolutely adamant that we should have been joining this war
1:02:26
and never been more ashamed to be British that we didn't join in. It's breathtaking to me where we are now
1:02:33
But that's not what I want to talk about today. I want to talk about Keir Starmer
1:02:37
I kind of want you to say nice things about the Prime Minister because I don't think he's getting the credit
1:02:41
that he deserves for prioritising the national interest over either short-term political advantage
1:02:47
or the cultivation of Donald Trump. He will not be, he said yesterday
1:02:52
diverted or deflected from acting in the best national interest, even as Donald Trump launched another attack on Keir Starmer
1:03:01
talking about drilling in the North Sea and changing course on immigration
1:03:06
Donald Trump displaying an ignorance of British domestic politics up there with his ignorance of what NATO exists to do
1:03:12
Immigration in this country is plummeting. It's going to cause us great economic harm the further it falls
1:03:17
And if you've learned anything from the current crisis in the Middle East, it's that the reliance upon fossil fuels is an absolutely disastrous way for a country to operate
1:03:27
If he doesn't, I don't think he has. How dare Donald Trump comment on our royal family, on our politics
1:03:32
and how dare he insult our Prime Minister? Where's your patriotic pride? St George's Day yesterday, why aren't we all queuing up to attack the President
1:03:40
for having the audacity to interfere? Farage used to be passionately opposed to American presidents interfering in British politics
1:03:48
No wonder he's gone silent on the subject. So, I have two questions for you
1:03:53
I want you to talk to me about Keir Starmer's decision to reject Donald Trump's demands that we join in his attacks on Iran
1:04:02
I think that this is not something... I don't think that he is getting the credit that he deserves
1:04:06
for doing something that has clearly enraged the US president. And I want you to tell me, A, whether you agree in the first instance
1:04:13
and B, why you think he's not getting the credit he deserves of protecting the national interest from the hideous ambitions of the US President
1:04:24
But the other thing I really want you to help with is a simple explanation of what these words mean
1:04:31
The US could review Britain's claim to the Falkland Islands as punishment for its lack of support for the war on Iran
1:04:40
What would that look like? What would that mean? Hit the numbers now, you will get through
1:04:46
OK? 0345 6060 973. It's 11.19. James O'Brien on LBC. 21 minutes after 11 is the time
1:04:56
I mean, I sometimes think when I ask you a question, you'd be perfectly entitled to shout back at your radio
1:05:01
you get paid to work this stuff out. Why are you asking? I have to do your job for you. But if I don't do it every single day
1:05:07
I think you can cut me some slack. What does it mean the US could review Britain's claim
1:05:12
to the Falkland Islands? and how do you respond to that news? I don't think there's ever been a more
1:05:16
chest-thumping expression of patriotic fervour in this country than when Margaret Thatcher sent a task force to the South Atlantic
1:05:25
to repel Argentinian invaders from... I mean, I was only... I was only 10 or 11 at the time
1:05:33
but it's burnt in my memory. The news bulletins seem to, in retrospect, contain nothing else
1:05:39
The images of the ships leaving Portsmouth. I mean, it was huge
1:05:43
Absolutely huge. And yet we've now got a media and a politics full of Donald Trump fans
1:05:49
who don't know what to do on a day like today when they discover that the Pentagon is compiling plans
1:05:54
to punish NATO allies for not breaking international law and joining them in the unprovoked attack on Iran
1:06:01
And the punishment for Britain might include a review of Britain's claim to the Falkland Islands
1:06:08
I don't know what that means. And neither do I know why. Keir Starmer isn't getting more credit for prioritising the national interest over the whims and desires of the depraved President of the United States of America
1:06:25
And we're going to try and knit together a conversation that includes both of those elements
1:06:31
Mark can kick things off from Walsall. Mark, what do you reckon? I think that Keir Starmer is not getting enough credit for how he's handling the Iran war
1:06:41
Yeah, I agree. I'm not a fan of his. I didn't vote for him
1:06:50
Well, that makes your position more pertinent, doesn't it? You're being objective
1:06:55
You're not suffering from footballification. It's a really big deal for a UK Prime Minister
1:07:00
to tell a US President to sling his hook. I don't think he can do that
1:07:05
Because we're too ingrained with the US. Oh, you mean completely cutting off
1:07:14
By sling his hook, I just meant in this context. I don't mean... I mean, the state visit is going ahead
1:07:19
He has to keep lines of communication open. He has to tickle his toes when the opportunity presents itself
1:07:24
But the big question will you go to war with us He said no What Starmer missing is an attack dog in his cabinet that says what we think
1:07:36
but isn't seen enough to be officially offensive. That's an interesting point
1:07:44
So we're still too worried about... He almost needs a sort of rogue ally
1:07:49
who can be really rude about Donald Trump without it coming back to haunt the actual administration
1:07:55
the actual Prime Minister. Well, the Americans used to have one in Marjorie Taylor Greene
1:08:01
who used to say what the hard right used to actually think
1:08:05
on behalf of Trump. But now Trump seems to have taken that role on himself
1:08:10
Yeah, he's hemorrhaging the support of all the maddest people that were slavish in their speaking up for him
1:08:16
during the first term and the first year of, indeed, the second term
1:08:19
Can we pin down why he's not getting the credit he deserves, Mark? Have you got a view on that
1:08:24
I think there's certain sections of the media and there's certain sections of his own party
1:08:29
that decided that he's a dead man walking and they want him out
1:08:34
And therefore it doesn't matter what he does, they're not going to give him the plaudits that he probably deserves
1:08:39
I'll be fascinated to see how this looks in history books, this moment
1:08:43
I did an A-level in comparative US-UK politics, So the areas of interest have always intrigued me
1:08:54
And where it sits, Wilson didn't go to Vietnam. Trump this week saying that the Iran situation
1:09:00
which he said would be over in six weeks, could go on for years, drawing comparisons with Vietnam and Iraq
1:09:07
And that's more evidence of what we've talked about a million times, is that he just says completely contradictory things all the time
1:09:13
so that he can claim vindication or validation, whatever happens. If the opposite of what he said would happen happened
1:09:21
he can claim victory or validation because he also said the opposite of what he said would happen would happen
1:09:26
It's insane, this. It's so simple once you grasp it, but it never stops being bonkers
1:09:31
What I don't fully grasp is why Starmer isn't getting more credit for an extraordinarily bold diplomatic decision
1:09:40
The biggest question of his premiership, Certainly in international terms, arguably in domestic terms
1:09:46
in terms of the world, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
1:09:50
his role in the world, the biggest question he's been asked is whether he would join a war in Iran, and his answer was no
1:09:59
And we kind of gloss over it, and I want to know why. Rebecca's in Glasgow. Rebecca, what would you like to say
1:10:06
Hi, I am boiling with rage over this. Over what? Trump. Yes
1:10:12
His attitude, his... Well, you might be boiling with rage, Rebecca, but you sound like you've fallen down a well
1:10:17
I don't know if there's anything we can do to improve the quality of your phone line
1:10:23
Are we going to try, are we? We'll try and demuffle Rebecca
1:10:29
and talk to Liam, who's in Worcester Park. Liam, what would you like to say? Hi, James
1:10:33
Yeah, I do feel a bit sorry for Keir Starmer, generally, over the last year
1:10:39
But particularly as for why he's not getting any credit, and he should be
1:10:44
He should be getting some credit for standing up to Trump over Iran and Greenland as well
1:10:50
Why isn't he? Well, I think there's something about the collective headspace of the country seems to be obsessed with focusing on the big mistakes that have been made and the big problems that Keir Starmer has
1:11:04
it can't seem to handle the apparent contradiction of suddenly praising him for anything
1:11:11
that's what it feels like it feels like a motivated ground swell to get rid of him
1:11:19
yeah I mean I was puzzled by the visceral nature of the hatred
1:11:25
until someone showed me some of what goes on on social media
1:11:29
now I've kind of taken most of my feet out of that
1:11:34
that fetid pool. So I wasn't aware some of the lies that are just out, some of the blatant lies
1:11:39
that are out there, conspiracy theories, turbocharged. And so if you believe those
1:11:44
I can understand how you arrive in a position of profound and personal hatred. But I wonder whether
1:11:50
we were, you know, almost sort of Brexit levels of betrayal by our media, because everybody was
1:11:58
queuing up to say that Keir Starmer was wrong not to join Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu in this war
1:12:05
And even the most bent and biased commentators would now have to privately or quietly concede
1:12:13
that he was absolutely right to do it, but they can't come out and say so, because it would be to admit their own massive errors
1:12:20
Definitely, yes. I mean, but also, going on to the thing about the Falklands War
1:12:29
obviously it's vindictive. You know, the whole idea of punishing someone for disagreeing with you
1:12:34
or having a different opinion from you. This is very disturbing. But is it new? I don't know
1:12:40
It's brand new, yeah. It's brand new. Reuters got it yesterday, but I don't know what it means
1:12:44
I said to Eleanor when we were talking about it before the show, I don't think it matters. I don't know that the United States can do anything
1:12:49
I don't know what these words mean in the broader context. The US could review Britain's claim to the Falklands Islands
1:12:56
He's got an ally in Buenos Aires, hasn't he? The crazy guy with the chainsaw
1:13:01
who in some areas isn't doing a bad job in Argentina. But what would that involve
1:13:07
Chucking out all the British people and replacing them with Argentina? I just don't know what it would mean
1:13:11
for the US to review Britain's claim to the Falkland Islands. It's not a claim that is in America's gift
1:13:19
It's not their business in any meaningful or easily understandable way any more than they could chuck Spain out of NATO
1:13:26
But, of course, it's getting reported, and, of course, I want to come to a better understanding of it
1:13:31
I also... I don't know. How do we do this? Is it like we need a kind of..
1:13:35
We need a slide rule or a measure in the context of..
1:13:39
Or a penny whistle. We need... In the context of history and US-UK relations
1:13:44
relations and British Prime Ministers, how big a deal is Keir Starmer's refusal to do Donald
1:13:52
Trump's bidding? How big a moment is this in our domestic story? Not in terms of the
1:13:59
transatlantic relationship, but that's why I say to you sometimes I'm fascinated by what
1:14:05
historians of the future will have to say about things, because it could be huge, this, and we are
1:14:11
distracted, understandably, by the Mandelson debacle. We are skewed slightly by the hideousness
1:14:19
of our media and much of the coverage and by the viciousness of social media. We could be sitting
1:14:24
at a moment of quite significant historical importance and not really noticing it enough
1:14:30
because we're too busy talking about, not parking tickets, but you take my point
1:14:35
So how big a deal is Keir Starmer's refusal to do Donald Trump's bidding
1:14:41
And his enraging of the US president morally, militarily, legally. The man is completely right
1:14:49
But he's leading a country full of commentators and opposition politicians who accused him of being completely wrong
1:14:55
It 11 Dominic Ellis has your headlines James O on LBC 11 is the time I was going to write a thriller once someone probably done this
1:15:06
but I had an idea that there was, it's a bit Dan Brown, this, well I say I was going to write a thriller
1:15:11
You know what my late father used to say to me every time I told him I was writing a book? It's a Peter Cook joke, but he delivered it rather well
1:15:18
He used to say, neither am I, son, neither am I. And then, of course, by the time I wrote some books
1:15:23
poor fellow had passed away so I never got to gloat in his face about actually delivering three
1:15:28
best-selling manuscripts um but I had this idea that there was a sort of document it'd be a bit
1:15:34
like the national treasure films with Nicolas Cage or a Dan Brown novel but politics rather
1:15:40
than religion and there was a document that would call it would somehow undo the American
1:15:46
war of independence it would prove that America never had the right to declare in or something
1:15:51
like that. And it was pathetic, and it was a ridiculous idea, and as soon as I spoke to
1:15:57
historians about whether it was in any way plausible that such a document could exist
1:16:00
they were unanimous in their view that it couldn't. But I am kind of thinking, as Steve
1:16:04
suggests in a text, that we could start reviewing the United States' claim to Texas. We could
1:16:10
invoke some, I don't know, some historic precedent. That's how pathetic Donald Trump is today
1:16:16
when he says that the Pentagon is considering, or when we discover that the Pentagon is
1:16:21
considering a review of Britain's claim to the Falkland Islands. The problem that we have
1:16:26
is that this is simultaneously ridiculous and important. That's Donald Trump. If you leave the depravity aside for a moment
1:16:34
and I appreciate that that's difficult, all that we are talking about is simultaneously ridiculous and important
1:16:41
He's going to steal Greenland. He's going to invade Greenland. Ridiculous. Important
1:16:47
Ridiculous. Because, of course, the US president isn't going to claim that he's going to invade Greenland
1:16:53
Important because the US president has claimed that he's going to invade Greenland. They're going to review Britain's claim to the Falklands
1:16:59
Ridiculous. It's nothing to do with you. But they kind of helped themselves to Venezuela the other day
1:17:05
So, you know, important. Can't be ignored. What would it mean? I do not know
1:17:13
Could we muster up a task force now to send to the South Atlantic like we did in 1982
1:17:19
It seems unlikely. but maybe we could trigger NATO Article 5 if the Argentinians were to invade again
1:17:25
Is Donald Trump saying to the chainsaw dude in Buenos Aires that if he were to launch a military campaign
1:17:30
against the Falkland Islands, then America wouldn't do anything to help us
1:17:35
In which case, you just remind them that he didn't do anything to help us last time, really, to speak
1:17:39
So what does it mean, and why isn't Keir Starmer, given that this is yet more proof
1:17:43
of just how enraged Donald Trump is by Keir Starmer's actions, Why isn't Keir Starmer getting more credit for his actions in this country
1:17:54
Rebecca is in Glasgow on a better line. Rebecca, what would you like to say? Have I climbed out the well
1:17:59
That's perfect, yes. What have you got? Great. Yeah, no, I have a big issue with him threatening punishment
1:18:07
on people who do not follow his lead. Acquiesce. Well, yeah, the problem is that everybody has tiptoed around him all this time
1:18:17
So he's come to expect it. And when people put their foot down, he goes into this childlike way of, well, I'm not, you know, of looking to punish
1:18:31
But the problem we have here is that he is the most powerful man in the West
1:18:37
But he is driven by his admiration of authoritarian characters. and he sees Putin going into another country
1:18:46
and claiming land that isn't his. Yes. And he wants to do the same
1:18:51
This is a land grab that he's on. Well, you're taking it seriously
1:18:55
You think he's got his eye on the Falklands? Yes. There's not much use to him. No, it might not be
1:19:01
But then I actually think these are land grabs. He's colonising. He would look at this, he would review this and say
1:19:08
no, you didn't have a claim. We'll take it under our wing. and we have to take Greenland seriously
1:19:15
we have to take Canada seriously because this man is not firing on all four cylinders
1:19:20
And the problem is that he is being backed up by people who are, if he were to be removed from post
1:19:29
they would then continue what he's doing and there's no 25th for them
1:19:34
So the Allies need to get together and they need to stay on the same course
1:19:40
and they need to do it in strength because this man is just going to chip away
1:19:47
chip away, chip away at everyone. And I don't know what Project 25 says in detail
1:19:54
but there is something driving this man other than his insanity. It wasn't big on foreign policy
1:20:01
I haven't read the whole thing, but I don't think, certainly absolutely unquestioning support
1:20:06
for Benjamin Netanyahu who is intrinsic to the Trump administration. But I don't think there was much there about imperial ambition in Project 2025
1:20:15
You know, Rebecca, you mentioned Putin. I find it extraordinary that we don't talk about this more
1:20:21
about how the only thing you can say with absolute certainty regarding Donald Trump
1:20:25
is that he will never do anything that particularly confounds, frustrates or upsets Vladimir Putin
1:20:32
So now he's weakening NATO. This memo put together in the Pentagon talking about the expulsion of Spain from NATO
1:20:44
talking about the betrayal, if you like, of European allies, reassessing of diplomatic support for European, quotes, imperial possessions, end quotes
1:20:58
And Putin must love this. Looking at the European Union coming under attack
1:21:04
from the President of the United States of America. Looking at NATO coming under attack
1:21:09
from the United States of America. Looking at Ukraine, the leader of Ukraine
1:21:14
being humiliated and insulted by the President of the United States of America
1:21:19
The list of things. It's almost like a Christmas list. It's like Vladimir Putin's present list
1:21:28
he's delivered to Santa, and Donald Trump keeps just ticking him off
1:21:32
and we don't talk about it enough, do we? No, and I think, you know, if you look at what Dugin's manifesto was
1:21:40
it was about claiming landmass outside of the kind of Soviet-era lands
1:21:50
Now, basically what Trump is doing is all the hard work for Putin
1:21:55
he would claim all these lands and because Trump is a Putin stooge
1:22:01
he could basically just turn around to Trump and say right hand it over
1:22:05
I don't dismiss any claims about Donald Trump anymore because anything is possible, I don't know what people's
1:22:14
favourite moment was as proof that anything was feasible for this madman
1:22:19
but probably Greenland, you know the idea that he genuinely had designs upon sovereign European territory so I not going to argue with Rebecca about the land grab angle I don agree with it personally but I could be wrong and six months down the line
1:22:35
it may be obvious that you were right, but in terms of what it would mean now
1:22:39
it's just bonkers that he's even saying it out loud. Absolutely bonkers, and yet, here we are, ridiculous and important at the same time
1:22:48
11.42 is the time. Thank you, Rebecca. Matt is in Bishop's Stortford. Matt, what do you reckon
1:22:53
hi James your previous discussions queued up this quite well really so I wanted to make a couple of points
1:23:00
and then where am I to go next so one is I think Starmer does deserve
1:23:06
recognition for not getting involved in Iran I think Trump is deliberately doing
1:23:14
all of this as a means of undermining NATO and the European Union
1:23:18
yes I completely agree and why aren't alarm bells going off all around the country
1:23:24
Why aren't our newspapers, our patriotic politicians, why aren't they absolutely outraged
1:23:29
at attacks upon NATO, attacks upon European unity, European peace? Attacks on Vladimir Zelensky
1:23:38
It's one of those mornings where I suddenly remember all of the other things in the background
1:23:42
that proves that he is just Putin's poodle. Yeah, yeah. So, and maybe it's that they're kind of beholden to him
1:23:51
for kind of where they've ended up, you know, the likes of Farage and such like
1:23:56
But the other kind of thing I wanted to point out is that I think the Falklands issue
1:24:01
is really a pawn in a bigger game. So I would encourage you and your listeners
1:24:09
to go and listen to the Sky News podcast by Deborah Haynes that's called The War Game
1:24:14
Yes. Because that plays out essentially two scenarios. One is called The Grey Zone
1:24:19
and it's things like the scribbles being poisoned in Salisbury. Yeah. And the other is more of a hot scenario
1:24:25
where Russia attacks the UK with conventional weapons and America is unwilling to help
1:24:33
Yeah. And it's like it's playing out like a documentary. You know
1:24:38
I remember George Robertson spoke to this yesterday when he talked about the need for us to cease our dependence
1:24:43
on the United States of America and recalibrate our alliances. And that was the first hour of yesterday's show
1:24:49
which I would recommend people listen to in case they missed it
1:24:53
You can listen on Catch Up on the LBC app. I think this, I don't want to labour the point about historians of the future
1:24:59
but there's going to be books written, isn't there, about the... And I mean, whether or not it's down to compromat or blackmail
1:25:07
or something more venal even than that, or just greed or corruption
1:25:11
it can't be coincidence that every single thing Trump does looks as if it was dictated by Vladimir Putin
1:25:22
And Brexit falls into that category. And I think if you ask why
1:25:27
then perhaps the reason is that what is the thing that constrains Trump and Putin
1:25:34
It's the European Union economically and legally. Yeah. And it's NATO militarily
1:25:40
Yeah. That's it, isn't it? And so they are the checks and balances, if you like
1:25:46
The restraints, that's a great word. The restraints upon imperial ambition or whatever you want to call it
1:25:53
The constraints upon them. And, you know, they're trying to dismantle them in real time as we speak
1:26:00
Thank you, Matt. Great stuff. 11.45 is the time. Benji Hyatt is up next
1:26:06
My LBC colleague, been doing a little bit of investigation into... actually, I'm not going to spoil it
1:26:13
I'll let him tell you the story, because it's surprisingly poignant and political at the same time
1:26:17
And we may, after that, return to the question of what the hell is going on here with regards to the Falklands Islands
1:26:23
Simon Marks will be with us at half past twelve. And he's in the news a bit this week
1:26:27
because I believe his son just got married. But full disclosure is with the inimitable Michael Whitehall
1:26:32
one of life's great raconteurs, as he proves in the course of our conversation
1:26:37
a little snippet of which I will share with you shortly. The time now is 11.46
1:26:42
James O'Brien on LBC. 11.49 is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:26:49
Henry Riley's regular feature, of course, has been curtailed for the duration of the PURDA period
1:26:54
that accompanies all elections in this country, with the locals just around the corner
1:27:00
But his, and indeed my colleague Benji Hyer, joins us with news of
1:27:05
I suppose we could loosely describe it as a vetting failure. Benji? Yes, James, good morning. We have spoken a lot, as you mentioned, about prospective
1:27:14
councillors, candidates making, sorry to say, controversial remarks. But what I've been delving
1:27:19
into is one specific individual standing for Reform UK in next month's local elections in
1:27:25
Hastings. And this man, Ricky Hodges, has appeared not just to express racist or sexist content
1:27:31
which is so commonplace online, but has appeared to have gone as far as condoning
1:27:36
even encouraging political violence. In a Facebook post, in an account seemingly belonging to him
1:27:43
he called, and I should just warn listeners that this is some sensitive themes here
1:27:47
he called for the hanging of former Prime Minister Theresa May over her handling of Brexit
1:27:53
In comments that appear to be made by Mr Hodges, he said the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, should be put in a coma
1:27:59
that he'd want to punch a squirming little lefty in the throat
1:28:03
and take the limbs off Labour Party activists. He's also come under fire for purportedly making a series of unfounded claims on religion and gender
1:28:13
He's accused Muslims of being behind the majority of crime and alleged that women, quote, destroy everything
1:28:20
Women? Women destroy everything. Just women? Just women in general, he says
1:28:25
And they destroy everything? Well, he says that's why hurricanes are named after women. Right
1:28:29
I can't verify if hurricanes are named after men as well, but that was his allegation, unfounded
1:28:35
Those comments have caused significant defence, as you might imagine, notably to the daughter of Sir David Amos
1:28:42
And you'll recall that he is the Conservative MP, murdered five years ago whilst serving as a politician
1:28:48
And his daughter, Katie, is outraged that this candidate is being able to stand for office
1:28:53
She fears that his remarks could incite violence against elected officials. It's deeply, deeply upsetting
1:29:01
These are abhorrent things to be saying. and this isn't a game
1:29:05
My father lost his life due to political violence. We should not be standing for this kind of rhetoric
1:29:12
He absolutely should be removed from the ballot without question. Put yourself in my shoes, for example
1:29:19
My father was killed because somebody thought those things. I don't think he would be thinking it was so funny or clever
1:29:24
if it was his father that was killed. I've also, sorry James, I've also spoken with the MP for Hastings
1:29:31
This is the area where Ricky Hodges is standing. Labour's Helena Dolimore calls these posts horrific
1:29:36
and she is urging Reforms leader Nigel Farage to throw Ricky Hodges out of the party
1:29:42
I think these posts are absolutely shocking. There are serious threats of physical violence contained within them
1:29:50
racism, misogyny. This is simply not the values of the people of Hastings
1:29:56
I wrote to Nigel Farage over a week ago asking him personally, would he drop this candidate and throw him out of the Reform Party
1:30:06
I'm yet to receive a response from Nigel Farage. I have tried to track him down in Parliament this week
1:30:12
but since Nigel Farage has not been voting for over a month in Parliament
1:30:16
that has been impossible. And that is true, I've checked Nigel Farage's voting record, by the way
1:30:20
You're a very busy man. Campaigning up and down the country. Those cameos don't film themselves, Benji
1:30:28
Indeed. Indeed. We've previously put these claims as allegations to Reform UK
1:30:33
In a statement, the party told us an investigation is underway into these specific posts
1:30:38
And the case remains with the disciplinary team, which is thoroughly reviewing it
1:30:42
I also contacted Mr Hodges. He told me he was not willing to comment at this time
1:30:47
You mentioned at the very top that, you know, this has opened up further questions, raised again by Helena Donomore, the MP, about reform selection process
1:30:55
Because this is too late now to change the ballot or withdraw, Mr Hodges. It's about the initial vetting, which Nigel Farage says has been tightened
1:31:03
but the Conservatives warn of a systemic failure in reforms vetting. We've seen posts from a number of other candidates up and down the country
1:31:10
which include Islamophobic, anti-Semitic remarks, some being investigated in Swindon, the anti-extremist campaign group Hope Not Hate exposing another one in Plymouth
1:31:20
who claims Jews are creating division, fantasising about impaling minorities. And again, I must stress, reform tells us all those cases are under review and are being investigated
1:31:31
James, in the past few moments, the Labour Party has also released its banned political broadcast, which contains some quotes from reform politicians
1:31:42
We're not going to be playing out on air, obviously. It contains offensive content. but they have reduced this dossier containing social media posts of dozens of those standing
1:31:52
for reform in May's elections again up and down the country with racist, sexist, offensive remarks
1:32:00
and off the back of them the community secretary Steve Reid saying Nigel Faras must sack all of
1:32:05
these candidates named in the dossier. There is something worth pondering here more widely as
1:32:11
well, which is the concern that's been raised by many campaigners off the back of this online
1:32:17
activity, not just by reform, by other parties, candidates of all parties, and how they pose a
1:32:22
threat, a genuine threat to democracy and how they dissuade, you know, kind, proper debate
1:32:29
The charity set up in the name of Joe Cox, the Labour MP, assassinated nearly a decade ago
1:32:35
is calling for a much kinder politics as we approach polling day on the 7th of May. And here
1:32:41
is the organisation's CEO, Olivia Field. We will be marking 10 years since Jo was murdered in June
1:32:48
so it's a real moment to reflect on where we are. And whilst there has been a lot of progress
1:32:53
we are seeing behaviours get worse. It's becoming less about a contest of ideas and more about an
1:33:01
endurance test against kind of personal attacks and intimidation. The Jo Cox Foundation tells me
1:33:07
by the way, that 96% of current MPs have experienced abuse over the last year in person
1:33:13
and online. A reminder again what Ricky Hodges said at the top that he calling for the hanging of
1:33:19
politicians and that he wants to put the Mayor of London into a coma
1:33:23
I'm obliged as well, James, to list the candidates for the trestle ward in
1:33:27
Hastings where Ricky Hodges will be standing as a candidate. For Labour
1:33:33
Ingrid Christina Kathleen Allen for the Greens, Glenn Haffenden for reform, as we mentioned, Ricky Hodges
1:33:40
and for the Conservatives, Shelley Lee. The election is on the 7th of May. Thank you, Benji. Benji Hyer there for LBC
1:33:46
looking at the latest results of, in this case, Reform UK's vetting processes
1:33:54
I don't imagine that that will be the last we hear of vetting processes
1:33:58
but as Benji suggested, there are problems being faced by all parties
1:34:02
11.56 is the time. Speaking of problems, back to Donald Trump. Oh, just before you go, Benji, Hurricane Andrew
1:34:08
In 1990, there was a Hurricane Andrew. There was a Storm Dave recently
1:34:12
I mean, I don't know. So are you suggesting that this man who made these allegations isn't telling the truth necessarily, James
1:34:17
Suggesting he's no Michael Fish. It is 11.56. Jonathan's in Glasgow to stare us back to the conversation
1:34:24
about Donald Trump, the Falkland Eye. Well, you tell me, Jonathan. Why did you pick up the phone
1:34:29
Good morning, James. So I am a serving officer in the military
1:34:34
and we recently just came off a course where essentially we ysed the
1:34:40
the Strategic Defence Review which was, you know, put out by the United States and
1:34:46
one of the essay questions that we had to write was, does it pose a
1:34:50
threat to the current sovereignty of the Balkans Isles? So, yeah, it just so
1:34:56
happens, you know, that was a bit of foresight from the course that this has come up
1:35:00
and essentially my conclusion was that it holds no strategic value to the United States
1:35:07
so, you know, it doesn't really matter to them. I think that this whole thing that they've said, you know
1:35:13
they're going to review their stance on it, has got us, you know, talking about it
1:35:18
so therefore he's trying to exert pressure on what he perceives to be a weak UK government
1:35:25
Talking about it a bit, I guess, I mean, I don't know, this is what I meant when I said to Eleanor earlier
1:35:31
it's ridiculous and important at the same time. And while you're here, Jonathan, a little bit of breaking news
1:35:36
Downing Street has hit back at the US amid these reports that it's considering the reassessment of its support for Britain's claim
1:35:43
to the Falkland Islands, stating that sovereignty rests with us in direct response to those claims
1:35:52
We could not be clearer about the UK's position on the Falklands
1:35:56
said the spokesman for the Prime Minister. It's longstanding, it's unchanged. Sovereignty rests with the UK
1:36:02
and self-determination is paramount. So there's no Greenland parallel, obviously. This is what you concluded in your essay
1:36:10
Proximity to minerals or to undrilled oil or anything like that. It's not a glittering prize in the way that Greenland would be
1:36:17
But I suppose it's leverage. I mean, it's not ideal for Keir Starmer to have
1:36:23
arguably our closest ally, essentially threatening to pull the rug from under
1:36:28
arguably our most successful military engagement of the last 40 years. Yeah, I absolutely agree
1:36:36
I think that even in the US strategic defence review of 25
1:36:41
it said that, you know, states have the absolute right to self-determination
1:36:46
and the fact that the Falkland Anglers voted recently that they wished to remain a part of the UK
1:36:52
then, you know, like, that they would just go completely against what the document they've already written
1:36:56
but then again, I suppose that wouldn't be a first for the Trump administration
1:37:00
No, you're absolutely right. You almost get a ray liota, but you didn't set the essay question
1:37:05
You merely answered it there, Jonathan. So not quite scaling the dizzy heights necessary
1:37:11
After the news, we will hear from a succession of previous supporters of Donald Trump
1:37:16
Nigel Farage will be on. Dick Littlejohn will be joining us from the Daily Mail
1:37:20
Boris Johnson will be here. Kemi Badenoch's coming on. all to explain how disgusted and outraged they are that Donald Trump should not only threaten to reassess the United States view of the Falkland Islands but also of course malign the memories of the
1:37:37
British servicemen and I suppose to an extent the Argentine service personnel who died during that
1:37:42
engagement back in 1982. 255 British troops died defending that territory and after the news Nigel
1:37:51
Farage will share his thoughts on Donald Trump maligning their memory. Sarcasm emoji
1:37:56
James O'Brien on LBC. Four minutes after 12 is the time you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:38:04
I am, one of the things I really enjoy about the time that we spend together
1:38:08
is stumbling into subjects that we haven't done before, which turn out to be utterly delightful
1:38:15
And we're going to do one of those again now. It's a relatively recent development on the programme, but it's rapidly moved into my all-time favourite conversations, among my all-time favourite conversations
1:38:29
And there is, I think, a personal dimension to it as well, because the more I read about some forms of neurodiversity, the more bells start ringing in my own brain, as some of you have been telling me for some time, would indeed happen
1:38:43
But I know for a fact that I am not dyslexic. And it is dyslexia to which I will turn your attention first during this hour
1:38:52
Because, again, Donald Trump, I'm afraid, features in this moment because he has been unspeakably rude about dyslexia and about dyslexics in the way that he is unspeakably rude about kind of everybody
1:39:08
In this case, attacking the governor of California, Gavin Newsom, by equating his dyslexia with being dumb
1:39:18
You may have heard on Nick Ferro's show earlier that a new animated film voiced by Jeremy Irons and Liv Tyler is now being released to tackle negative attitudes towards dyslexia
1:39:31
It's made by the Made by Dyslexia charity. and it describes, defines dyslexia as a brilliant and different way of thinking
1:39:42
And it struck me, it may be that this conversation is confined to dyslexia actually
1:39:48
but it may be that we move into the broader question of what I call late life diagnoses
1:39:55
Because I don't know how old you are, but in my mind
1:39:59
it's children who get diagnosed with dyslexia or with ADHD. And of course, that's increasingly not the case
1:40:07
More and more adults are discovering later in life that there is a reason why things that they thought were..
1:40:15
I don't know quite what the word would be, to be honest with you
1:40:19
but things that... I don't want to say normal. I don't think normal has much space in any of these conversations
1:40:24
but things that you thought were your fault. That's the way to describe it
1:40:28
Things that you thought were your fault and that other people felt were your choices or your failures
1:40:35
were actually nothing to do with you and nothing to do with choices
1:40:41
Dads and mums taking children for ADHD assessments and recognizing that they themselves have it
1:40:49
experience a real liberation, a real sense of growth. And we've had that conversation a few times
1:40:56
but we haven't had the dyslexia conversation. It comes up in full disclosure quite a lot
1:41:02
So the one who really resonated for me as a guest, and there have been a few, was Brian Conley, who clearly lived throughout his childhood with a sort of dark cloud hanging over his head in that he thought he was stupid
1:41:21
And he had teachers that repeatedly told him that he was stupid
1:41:27
Whereas, in fact, he had dyslexia. He has dyslexia. dyslexia and it's a fascinating interview actually that and we touch on this quite a lot and it's
1:41:36
really stayed with me. Some of those interviews really do stay with me. I've enjoyed all of them
1:41:42
every single one except one but I'll never tell you who that was. I've enjoyed all of them
1:41:46
and by the way the one that I didn't enjoy was with someone that I really like. It was probably
1:41:52
my fault that the interview didn't go very well but some of them really stay. Last week's with
1:41:56
Marcus Brigstock, I can tell from my Blue Sky account, you have been touched by that in ways that other interviews
1:42:04
perhaps haven't touched you. And the one with Brian Connolly, similarly. When people speak about..
1:42:08
There's something about successful people discussing vulnerability that can be incredibly powerful
1:42:14
When it's authentic and honest, it can be incredibly powerful. And because, you know, we live in a world where
1:42:22
we probably worship the wrong things and fame and success, and celebrity probably get far too much attention
1:42:29
and far too much importance attached to them. But when people who have all of those trappings of success
1:42:35
display and describe their own vulnerabilities and their own battles, it serves a really helpful purpose for people who are not famous
1:42:44
or high status who are suffering from similar things. Think back to school now, depending on how old you are
1:42:55
And think back to the children that were earmarked as, would we have called them, it depends how old you are
1:43:05
would you have called them thick? Would you have called children thick when you were at school
1:43:09
Would teachers ever have called a child thick? That's going to depend on age. But you have an image
1:43:15
even if you weren't subjected to furious and constant assessment, academic assessment
1:43:20
you have an image in your, you can think back to the children who were bottom of the class
1:43:27
can't you? You just can. Now, think about them for a little moment longer
1:43:32
and tell me whether or not any of them were really funny
1:43:36
like witty, like really good jokers or brilliant at other things, like art, for example
1:43:46
But the kids who were earmarked as bottom of the class, the likelihood for me, I'm 54 years old
1:43:53
So dyslexia was just coming in to common parlance during my school days
1:44:00
And too late for some of my contemporaries, too late for some of my peers
1:44:05
because they'd already been sort of handed the mark of Cain. They'd already been earmarked as, I'm going to use the language that was used at the time
1:44:14
I don't think it's going to cause any offence, thick. They were earmarked as thick, thick kids, stupid children
1:44:21
and they carried that. Not just that label, that stigma, but that sense, dunces
1:44:29
You think back to the Beano, what was the likelihood that the kid in the corner of the classroom
1:44:34
with a dunce's cap on his head had dyslexia? Because if you struggle with reading and writing
1:44:42
then everything is a million times harder for you than it is for everybody else
1:44:47
But you didn't know. You didn't know. Some classrooms Jane reminds me in a text there even be a table There be a table for the children who were bottom of the class like the sick kids table How many of them do you reckon looking back probably had dyslexia When we talk about naughtiness we probably talking about neurodiversity or ADD or ADHD
1:45:11
Think back to the children who were constantly getting into trouble, and I was one of them
1:45:16
And oscillating between being in trouble and feeling awful, feeling shame and, why am I in trouble again
1:45:21
I don't want to be in trouble. I don't want to be, I'm not like... and that probably
1:45:26
when you think back to those children they were probably neurodiverse they probably had ADHD
1:45:32
but when you think back to the children I wish this language wasn't so cold
1:45:36
you think back to the children who were widely regarded as being thick
1:45:40
the chances are they were dyslexic. I'm trying to think of the other
1:45:44
guests, if you've listened to the interviews you can remind me, because it's not just Brian there have been other guests on Full Disclosure who've talked about
1:45:50
the determination to succeed in life, to propel themselves forward, to prove to people, including themselves, that they are not stupid
1:46:01
There's a slight danger in those stories because it could so easily have gone the other way
1:46:06
If everybody keeps telling you you're stupid and you're never going to amount to anything, you might believe them
1:46:13
That's a heartbreaking prospect. You might actually have your wings clipped permanently
1:46:18
by very early experiences of abuse, actually, to be labelled in that way
1:46:26
There's two things here, isn't there? There's the perception of stupidity, but there's also the perception of laziness or choice
1:46:34
You are choosing to hand in bad homework. You are choosing not to work hard in class
1:46:41
and therefore understand what's on the blackboard, whereas actually you can't. one of my favorite distinctions
1:46:50
that runs through many of the conversations that we have is the difference between can't and won't
1:46:57
and one of the greatest tragedies of childhood is when people that can't are labeled as being people who won't
1:47:08
when children who can't do something are labeled as children who won't do something
1:47:15
as if they are deliberately choosing to be obstreperous or objectionable or naughty
1:47:25
or, in this case, academically below par. Jamie's amazing, isn't he? Jamie was on the telly last night looking extremely cool, I felt
1:47:37
for a man of a similar age to me. But Jamie Oliver is another one whose dyslexia was absolutely baked into him
1:47:45
if you pardon the pun, at a very, very early age. He tells a story about the special needs teacher
1:47:52
arriving in his classroom to take the special needs children away. Jamie's younger than me, actually
1:47:58
so the special needs was becoming a thing by then. And the other children in the class would sing the words
1:48:05
special needs to the tune of Let It Be by the Beatles. And, you know, if he hadn't turned out to be brilliant at cooking
1:48:13
something that he discovered at a very early age in his parents' pub. And he's done extraordinary work
1:48:17
The reason I'm mentioning him is that he's done extraordinary work in the field of dyslexia
1:48:21
because it's something that he feels so passionately about. It's the path not taken, isn't it
1:48:28
It's the path not taken. Two roads diverged in a wood and I took the one less travelled by
1:48:34
If you'd got the diagnosis or if you knew that you weren't stupid, you were just in the can't category, not the won't category
1:48:43
Treating a child who can't do something as if they are a child who won't do something is a really horrible thing, isn't it
1:48:52
So, simple question, if you were wondering what the question was, what difference does it make when you discover that it was..
1:48:58
I mean, you kind of knew yourself all along. Do you know yourself all along
1:49:05
Or do you think that you are somehow... This is where shame and guilt can kick in, isn't it
1:49:10
So, I know it's not just reading and writing, there are other things going on, but this is probably the most obvious way into it
1:49:18
You are sitting there watching other children do things with ease that you find really, really difficult
1:49:26
Do you start beating yourself up about not being bright enough or thinking that there's something wrong with you
1:49:34
Do you actually do the self-loathing thing where you think, I should be different
1:49:40
I should be like, why can't I? Why won't I? And then later in life, you realise that you had absolutely no choice whatsoever in those moments
1:49:49
There was no agency. There was no free will being exercised. You could not do it
1:49:55
And the teachers all treated you as if you would not do it. So I want to know what difference the diagnosis makes
1:50:03
That's all. and it doesn't have to have been late in life I just want to know what difference
1:50:08
the diagnosis makes 03456060973 is the number you need it's a wonderful looking film this
1:50:17
and it addresses something some damage inevitably that Donald Trump has done
1:50:23
he damages someone or something every time he opens his mouth but he referred to Gavin Newsom
1:50:29
the governor of California as being dumb Newsom hit back to every kid with a learning disability
1:50:36
don't let anyone, not even the President of the United States, bully you
1:50:40
Dyslexia isn't a weakness, it's your strength. And I'd like to open up that line of conversation as well
1:50:45
because I know that people like Jamie Oliver and Brian Conley and others that I've interviewed do think that their dyslexia
1:50:52
has given them skills and strengths in other areas of their life
1:50:57
that they wouldn't otherwise have had. So feel free to tell me that side of it as well
1:51:03
But in the first instance, I just want to know what the diagnosis delivers to you
1:51:11
How does the diagnosis change the way you feel, the way you look at yourself and the way you fit into the world
1:51:19
Any teacher who calls a child thick should be disbarred, shouldn't they
1:51:25
Really. but to curse children for things over which they have no control
1:51:34
is a horrible thing to do and it used to be absolutely commonplace. Phone lines are open
1:51:38
0345 6060 973. What difference does the diagnosis of dyslexia make? What difference did it make to you
1:51:48
James O'Brien on LBC. 10 minutes after 12 is the time. a dyslexia charity moving or trying to undo some of the damage done by Donald Trump
1:51:58
to children with a learning disability, is how Gavin Newsom chooses to describe it
1:52:04
but he also describes it as a strength. His own dyslexia isn't a weakness
1:52:09
He believes it's a strength, and I buy that. But I think the diagnosis is crucial
1:52:14
I just want to know how important it was to you. Sarah is in Middlewich in Cheshire
1:52:18
Sarah, what would you like to say? Hi there. Yeah, sorry. I'm a little bit nervous
1:52:23
It's only me. It only me Yeah so I got diagnosed when I was well I got my diagnosis when I was 11 years old Okay And that helped me amazingly but unfortunately my dad didn get diagnosed at school
1:52:39
So he, yeah, so in some ways I helped him when I got my diagnosis
1:52:44
I think it helped him to realise that he had dyslexia and he wasn't silly and, you know, like he wasn't stupid
1:52:52
Yeah. And I helped him the way I learned, and then he was learning more the way I was learning
1:52:58
Really? You took home your sort of dyslexia accommodations and your dad..
1:53:06
Oh, that must have been quite a moment. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was
1:53:11
So what difference did it make to you? What was the difference between 10-year-old you and 12-year-old you that the diagnosis delivered
1:53:16
Well, they knew I had dyslexia all the way through school, so I'm severely dyslexic
1:53:21
What does that mean for people listening, Sarah? What does that mean? So some people struggle a little bit with reading and writing
1:53:27
So my reading and writing age is of a seven-year-old and I'm 34 now
1:53:33
Gosh. So, yeah, so mine's very severe. So you can, it's like your spectrum
1:53:38
You can have it mild, you can have it severe, and I'm quite severe with my reading and writing
1:53:45
What do you, I mean, the problem with this question, and forgive me if it's a stupid question
1:53:49
is that I only know what I can see. So I'm looking at a piece of paper in front of me now
1:53:53
and I know what I can see, but I don't know what you see. But because you don't know what I can see
1:53:58
can you draw the comparison? I mean, what do you see when you're looking at a book
1:54:03
So it's just letters. For me, it's just letters and they just don't make any sense
1:54:08
So I read it how it's... So if I'm spelling something, it's how it sounds
1:54:12
Yeah. For me, so I've got five roads at the minute, so I'm doing a lot of reading and writing with her
1:54:18
and at some point I'm going to find that too hard to help her with that. She's going to overtake you soon, I suppose
1:54:24
She is going to overtake me soon, yeah. And that's scary. It is a bit scary
1:54:29
I get a little bit emotional about it because I feel like I won't be able to help her at some point
1:54:34
Oh, of course. As a mother. You'll find other ways of helping her and you'll be enormously important to her
1:54:39
in lots and lots of different ways so someone else can handle the reading and the writing side of things
1:54:43
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What did they do to you emotionally to make you feel better about yourself when you got the diet
1:54:50
The difference between the emotional treatment that you received and someone of your dad's generation
1:54:56
Yeah, so I got a lot of one-on-one in my classes. So, like, you get really tired
1:55:03
so they'd give me extra time in my exams. I did get a lot of help compared to what my dad..
1:55:09
My dad didn't finish school. That's really interesting that you can make that comparison
1:55:13
within your own family. Final question. what would you describe, to use Gavin Newsom's words
1:55:19
what would you describe as the strengths that it has given you? So, like you were saying earlier, I'm very good at banter
1:55:26
I'm very good with... I'll be the judge of that, mate! Well, I work at Bentley Motor, so I think that I'm very good at banter
1:55:35
I'm sure you are, but I use it as a synonym for quick wits, is what I mean, because you're quick witted
1:55:40
but you're just not the reading and writing, which is... Yeah, yeah. I'm very good with emotional, like, with other people's emotions
1:55:48
I know if they're struggling in their day, I feel like I pick up with that more as well
1:55:54
Gosh. Well, I love it. And that idea there, that... And actually, I'm going to ask you a slightly..
1:56:00
I don't know whether it's a weird question or not. I think I know the answer
1:56:04
But you, when your daughter started school, were you worried that she might be the third generation
1:56:12
Yeah, I was very worried. and I made sure I looked at schools that had the help that she would need
1:56:19
if she did have dyslexia. And how quickly did you become confident that she didn't
1:56:26
Well, the first six months, because I spoke to my mum and she said she's coming on leaps and bounds compared to what I was
1:56:33
Oh, crikey. Interesting, isn't it? What a lovely call, thank you. And I hadn't thought about that
1:56:40
I know that I mentioned that some dads going along with their children for an ADHD diagnosis
1:56:45
realized themselves that they should probably get one as well. But I hadn't thought about a little girl coming home from school with a dyslexia diagnosis
1:56:53
and everybody in the family realizing that it applied to daddy as well. But in some ways, of course, in terms of the education, the formal education system
1:57:00
it was too late by then. Stuart is, thank you, Sarah. Stuart's in Southend-on-Sea
1:57:05
Stuart, what would you like to say? Hi there. Hello, mate. Yeah, hi
1:57:10
Yeah, I was diagnosed with not just dyslexia, I can't even say the word
1:57:16
That's a cool joke of dyslexia. Try and spell it. I mean, it's a tricky word for everybody, isn't it
1:57:23
But, yeah, and also autism, funnily enough. So I'm neurodiverse as well
1:57:29
Yeah, it was excruciating when I was in school because obviously there was no sort of help back then
1:57:37
way back. I'm 51. Right, yeah, so similar age to me. And I don't remember, in my early years at school
1:57:44
I don't remember even hearing the word. No, no, see, autism. I knew it was different, obviously
1:57:51
And basically, I remember having cold sweats in English when they used to tell you to stand up and read in front of the class
1:58:00
And obviously, my reading was terrible, you know, all the way through schools, you know
1:58:05
But then I got diagnosed with classic dyslexia. How old were you when you got diagnosed
1:58:10
I'm terrible with dates, ages, everything. That's one thing that people don't realise with dyslexia
1:58:15
You can't organise dates. You're terrible with keeping appointments and stuff like that
1:58:24
These are classic examples of can't, not won't, because if you're late or you miss an appointment
1:58:30
I'm going to jump to the conclusion that you're out of line
1:58:33
that you don't care, that you're ignorant and rude. I've missed so many appointments, it's unreal
1:58:39
I'm sorry. But also directions are terrible. You know, the invention of SACNAV is just godsend
1:58:48
Yeah, just follow the instructions. Exactly. So, yeah, the educational psychiatrist says
1:58:55
that it's trouble with having visualising things in your brain. So when you read over
1:59:01
you have to read it again and again and again for it to sink into your brain. Yeah, fair enough
1:59:06
Because you can't visualize it. So it's, yeah, it is. But knowing what, going to your point
1:59:12
knowing what I've got, understanding your enemy to, you know, not to be too negative
1:59:18
is a case of I'm not fit. You know, I'm not stupid
1:59:22
Because that's how you feel when you're younger. That's how you feel. And that's how you're sort of made to feel
1:59:27
Not by people telling you that, but you see your peers getting on better than you
1:59:32
You sort of reach that ceiling where you can't learn anymore. gosh so yeah it is um it is good to know let's put it that way and how more understanding is the
1:59:42
world around you now than it was when you were younger uh i was just saying to your colleague
1:59:47
it depends which arena you're in hit and miss i was yeah i was in a in an office arena right
1:59:54
they were not sympathetic at all even though they came across you know
1:59:59
They had everything in place about supporting you with certain things, but it was utter tick-boxing
2:00:07
Yeah. And the job that I'm in now is completely different. They're looking after you properly
2:00:12
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Nice one. I mean, I can't imagine what it's like to grow up thinking that you're daft
2:00:19
or silly or stupid or thick and then realizing that you're not. It must be a moment of extraordinary liberation, Stuart
2:00:26
Oh, yeah. It affects, it does, like you said, funny enough, you punishing yourself, it affects your self-esteem hugely
2:00:33
Of course it does. And then when you realise that you had absolutely no role in this process
2:00:38
it frees you of some of that guilt and shame. Is it immediate or do you have to work on being kinder to yourself
2:00:45
Well, yeah, you do all the time, regardless of everyone. You know, so many people have got self-esteem issues
2:00:52
I think that's a daily thing of not being too hard on yourself. I think it's the nicest thing you can say to someone sometimes
2:00:58
is be kind to yourself. Even people who are very good at being kind to others
2:01:02
sometimes forget to be kind to themselves. It's really important. Stuart, I'm really glad to hear that
2:01:07
And I'm sorry about your experiences in your last job, but I'm really glad that your current employers and colleagues
2:01:13
are better people, or nicer people, or better informed, more enlightened people
2:01:18
It's a mad one, isn't it, the way that society can change
2:01:22
And of course, you know, in jobs like this, there is a well-established tradition of expressing scepticism
2:01:27
or cynicism about the existence of things that had not been identified when we were younger
2:01:33
I was one of those idiots that used to say, oh, I don't know what this is all about
2:01:36
We just used to call it naughty in my day when talking about opposition defiance disorder or ADHD
2:01:43
And you can still find columnists advertising their ignorance in 40-foot high letters on these kind of subjects
2:01:49
But that's why I love the question that we're asking today, the difference that diagnosis makes
2:01:54
because it's just human, isn't it? That's the difference that it makes
2:02:01
It makes a difference to humans, a profound and meaningful difference. It's coming up to half past 12
2:02:05
After the news bulletin, Simon Marks will join us live from Washington, D.C
2:02:10
It's one of those mornings where we had him booked before the show started
2:02:14
but there's now more things for him to talk about than there were when we booked him
2:02:18
before the show started. So find out what we are going to talk about after the very latest headlines with Matt Hewitt
2:02:23
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 12.33. I always, that story Stuart told about the dread
2:02:30
the cold dread he'd feel when they were going around the class doing plays, I was the polar opposite of that
2:02:37
You won't be surprised to learn. And it's so interesting to see the world through other people's eyes
2:02:43
and recognise that the world could not have been more different. You could be sitting next to someone who was in terror
2:02:48
at the thought of being asked to read in class, whereas I was always slightly miffed when I wasn't reading out loud
2:02:55
Showing off, I suppose, in class. To Washington, D.C., where Simon Marks awaits
2:03:01
And as is sometimes the case, Simon, there is more to talk about at 12.33
2:03:07
than there was when we asked you to come on the programme shortly after 10 o'clock this morning
2:03:12
We should probably begin with the Falkland Islands. Yes, absolutely, James. And I think we should probably begin with the fact
2:03:18
that you and I have both missed a major chance here. Because if 24 hours ago we had placed a bet on Polymarket or Calci
2:03:27
to say that we'd be talking today about the Falkland Islands, we would be quids in, a bit like the soldier here
2:03:33
who was suddenly accused last night of placing bets on one of those two platforms over the military operation in Venezuela
2:03:41
and trousering $400,000 who's now been arrested. Look, it is extraordinary that as we wait for the King and the Queen to arrive here in Washington next week, we are now talking about the Falkland Islands because of this leaked Pentagon document that suggests that in a whole raft of reprisals that the United States and the Trump administration is thinking of taking towards NATO members
2:04:09
One of them is to renounce the notion that the UK has any sovereign right to the Falkland Islands
2:04:18
which of course would be a massive gift to Donald Trump's mucker in Buenos Aires, Javier Millay
2:04:24
and would also, very neatly from Donald Trump's perspective, further punish Keir Starmer
2:04:31
something that he can't stop talking about here, even as we prepare for the state visit by the king and queen
2:04:41
that is supposed to be marking the beginning of America's 250th birthday commemorations
2:04:48
So this plan, apparently, potentially, to pull support for British sovereignty towards the Falklands
2:04:56
at least to question it. One measure that's included in that document that has been
2:05:02
leaked from the Pentagon, one has to wonder about the timing of this leak. But it also demonstrates
2:05:10
much more importantly and much more broadly that the Trump administration and the president is
2:05:15
absolutely still thinking about pulling out of NATO because he's so furious, he says
2:05:23
over NATO failing the test that he set for the alliance in Iran
2:05:28
And so earlier this month, he was asked by the news agency Reuters whether he was still thinking about pulling out of NATO
2:05:34
And he said, well, wouldn't you be thinking about it if you were in my shoes
2:05:38
And it's absolutely evident that both he, Secretary of State Marco Rubio now
2:05:43
Vice President J.D. Vance are aligned, and obviously the Secretary of War Pete Hegseth
2:05:48
presiding over this document at the Pentagon, absolutely aligned in terms of threatening to pull the rug out completely
2:05:55
from under the transatlantic alliance that has kept the peace in Europe for eight decades
2:06:01
I mean, it is mind-boggling, isn't it? I know we do this often, get used to it for a while
2:06:06
talk about it for a while, normalise it for a while, and then some sort of metaphorical bomb goes off
2:06:11
and you recognise just how absolutely insane almost everything has become. Hard even to think of a rationale
2:06:18
I mean, questions I would have asked you 12 months ago before all of this became commonplace
2:06:23
Are people like Rubio on board with this genuinely in their bones
2:06:28
Or are they just acting opportunistically and doing whatever the president wants
2:06:32
What rationale could there be for this? Is Vladimir Putin yanking Trump's lead
2:06:39
I mean, the only person who would celebrate the collapse of NATO, or indeed the removal of the United Kingdom from the European Union on the international stage
2:06:46
would be our enemies. And yet the United States is still supposed to be our ally
2:06:51
But we don know the answer to any of these questions do we Really Well I do think it important to put into its historical context the Falklands and the United States and its relationship with the UK
2:07:05
because you and I were both young lads when that war took place, and remember that at the time
2:07:12
President Ronald Reagan was very dubious about Margaret Thatcher's decision to send the fleet
2:07:18
to the South Atlantic and indeed was urging her on numerous occasions to strike a deal
2:07:25
a phrase that of course has even more resonance now than it did back in 1982 with the Argentinian
2:07:32
government and she absolutely pushed back and said no we've got to draw a line if not in the
2:07:37
sand in the water certainly a line on the soil of the Falkland Islands and make it absolutely clear
2:07:43
that the aggression of the Argentinians was not going to stand. So America has always been, dating back to 1982
2:07:51
wobbly on the Falklands. What the Trump administration would say is their national security strategy decrees
2:07:58
that the Western Hemisphere is their unique sphere of influence. They've demonstrated through the attack on Venezuela
2:08:05
and through various other things they've been up to, including the conversations they're having with the government of Cuba
2:08:10
that they intend to be the dominant power in America's own Latin American backyard
2:08:17
And Donald Trump is furious, obviously, with the Prime Minister. Not only furious with the Prime Minister
2:08:24
wants to undermine the Prime Minister at every turn in order to grease the wheels of Nigel Farage and Reform UK
2:08:32
in an effort to get his man into number 10 Downing Street
2:08:36
And so this is all redolent of the fact that... Another Vladimir Putin fan
2:08:40
I mean, I don't think we should stop mentioning that. It's out there in place
2:08:45
No, well, and speaking of Vladimir Putin, I mean, the other thing we learnt last night
2:08:50
which is going to be a massive challenge for number 10, is that the President of the United States
2:08:55
intends to invite Vladimir Putin to attend the G20 summit that is going to be held on the outskirts of Miami
2:09:03
at Donald Trump's own golf club, just to underscore the nature of the event
2:09:09
in October. And that is going to be a massive problem for Number 10, for the Elysee Palace
2:09:17
for leaders throughout the G20, who will now have to decide two things. One, are they willing to
2:09:24
attend a G20 that's going to be held at Donald Trump's personal property? The White House says
2:09:29
he's going to make no money out of it. But precisely what that looks like has not been
2:09:34
of course, divulged? But number two, are they going to show up at an event where Vladimir Putin
2:09:40
a wanted war criminal, is going to be welcomed quite literally into the bosom of the Trump
2:09:47
business empire? So that is another question that is hanging over the royal visit, the relationship
2:09:55
with number 10, and again, the fact that it was disclosed last night, revealed last night, that
2:10:01
that invitation by the State Department is apparently about to go out to the Kremlin
2:10:07
Seems not to be entirely coincidental. Pretty much every other country around that table would arrest Vladimir Putin if he set foot on their soil
2:10:18
What would be required to arrest him because of their support for the tribunal
2:10:23
The United States, of course, as we've already seen through Vladimir Putin setting foot on Alaskan soil
2:10:29
the first time the Russian leader had been welcomed to set foot on American soil in over a decade
2:10:34
as we've seen through that first summit, and now this apparent invitation that's going to him to attend the G20
2:10:42
this administration has absolutely no compunction about allowing him to set foot on American soil
2:10:47
because they, of course, argue they're not bound by the arrest warrant
2:10:52
Yeah, same in Netanyahu, actually, while we're discussing such matters. Well, thank goodness then, despite all of this
2:11:00
that Donald Trump hasn't been rude about any of the king's children, given the imminence of the state visit
2:11:06
Yeah, well, why don't we have a listen to what Donald Trump had to say yesterday
2:11:11
about the upcoming state visit. And listen to all of this, because it is so revealing on multiple levels
2:11:19
It all started with a question to the president yesterday about Prince Harry
2:11:23
Prince Harry today has said that he would like to see you do more to end the war in Ukraine
2:11:29
Do you think it's appropriate for a royal to make those comments ahead of the visit on Monday? Prince Harry
2:11:33
Yes, sir. How's he doing? How's his wife? Please give him my regards
2:11:37
OK. No, no, I don't know. I think I know one thing. Prince Harry is not speaking for the UK
2:11:45
That's for sure. I think I'm speaking for the UK more than Prince Harry
2:11:50
But I appreciate his advice very much. Would you like it? Great advice. To the dinner, to the state visit
2:11:55
Well, I look forward to the dinner. We're having King Charles come. He's a friend of mine. We're really looking forward to it
2:12:01
We've spoken. And we're going to have a great time. I tell you, if I had that ballroom built, it would be filled
2:12:06
I wish we had more seats. We're going to have very great people that love the UK
2:12:11
I love the UK. I think they made a big mistake on energy
2:12:16
You should open up the North Sea in Aberdeen. You should open it up
2:12:20
And the other thing is they've made a big mistake on immigration. Now, there's an awful lot in that, starting with the sarcasm that the president offers when he's asked about Prince Harry and Meghan Markle
2:12:33
He has disdain for both of them. That's on the public record going back a long while
2:12:38
Then getting to a point where he actually says, I'm speaking for the UK
2:12:43
which of course is a ludicrous position for any president of the United States to take
2:12:49
when referring to any other government. But then we get absolute clarity about the eggshells
2:12:57
upon which the king and the queen will be walking next week
2:13:01
when they are here in Washington DC. I mean, he goes off on the riff about the ballroom
2:13:06
and we cut that down a bit because it's a long riff about the ballroom
2:13:10
but he immediately goes to the ballroom and it's a great shame He hasn't got more seats for the dinner that's going to be taking place next week, but then manages to take himself immediately to hitting out at the prime minister
2:13:24
And once again, raising the issue that he believes the prime minister is major, made a major mistake by failing to authorize more drilling in the North Sea off the coast of Abedinshire for oil
2:13:34
And of course, by not supporting him on Iran. so how all of this is going to be choreographed next week you know when the king and the queen
2:13:44
are with him and when they are not with him and he has access to reporters including now propagandists in that white house briefing room who are going to ask questions about the president view of the UK
2:14:00
even while the king and queen are here. Is he going to adopt normal convention
2:14:07
and basically zip it and basically button it until they've gone? Or even, and then after that, of course, it'll be open season again
2:14:16
but even while they're here, there's a tremendous risk that it's going to be open season again
2:14:21
Do you, briefly, do you think he can? Do you actually, I mean, you watch him more closely than most people do
2:14:27
No, he's not capable of doing what you've just described, is he? No
2:14:32
No, not capable. Not capable of being in a position where he stops transmitting
2:14:37
This is a man who is transmitting 24-7, whether it's verbally, in person with reporters, on his social media feed
2:14:46
even this week texting reporters because he actually thinks transmitting is governing right
2:14:53
and he doesn't understand that governing is stuff that you do when you're off camera when you're not
2:14:59
in front of reporters when you're not constantly messaging he he thinks he conflates the two they're
2:15:05
both the same john felan finally who's he and what's happened well he was the u.s secretary
2:15:12
of the navy and he was suddenly uh defenestrated by pete hegseth the secretary of war a couple of
2:15:18
nights ago to everyone's great surprise we all thought they must have had a row over the stewardship
2:15:25
of the iran war and the conduct of the united states was interesting by the way to hear president
2:15:29
trump yesterday uh insist that he won't use nuclear weapons on iran at least that was uh put
2:15:35
on the record yesterday we now know that the reasons for john phelan's departure relate directly
2:15:41
to presidential anger over the fact that the Navy Secretary was deemed to be dragging his feet over the commissioning
2:15:53
of $17 billion worth of new battleships that, and I am not making this up, the President wants to name after himself
2:16:03
Wow. Trump-class battleships that are going to be equipped with rail guns
2:16:08
and laser-guided weapons systems that the Pentagon itself concedes have not so far performed flawlessly in testing
2:16:17
So big questions about a lot of the technology that's supposed to be, going to be included in these fast, custom-designed battleships
2:16:26
that President Trump has shown us the designs of in various White House events over the last few months
2:16:32
Phelan was accused by the president of dragging his feet and so basically was fired by the president in person at the White House on Wednesday
2:16:41
and then replaced by his deputy, a man who, and I am again not making this up
2:16:49
has previously articulated the viewpoint that parts of California are being taken over by witches
2:16:59
And he, I mean, yes, he has said that. It is on the record. He's made a whole host of other intemperate remarks on various issues
2:17:08
But he actually has argued that the Wicca community is taking over parts of California
2:17:15
Actual witches. Sort of hubble-bubble, toil-and-trouble territory. Yeah. He's also said... Well, members of the Wicca community. I think we should be careful, because in his telling, that's the way that he views members of the Wicca community
2:17:29
Oh, I see. No, an important clarification. I don't know if you can clarify this
2:17:33
He's also said that the military should be recruiting alpha males and alpha females
2:17:37
who are going to rip out their own guts, eat them, and ask for seconds. Yeah, but a bit of a dispute there between him and the Defence Secretary, Pete Hegseth
2:17:46
because, of course, the Secretary of War isn't very interested in recruiting alpha females
2:17:50
He wants... No females. He's very into the maleness of the army
2:17:54
I need to tell you, I have a listener who I'm very fond of, called Robert
2:17:59
who's getting very, very cross with us both for saying Secretary of War
2:18:02
because he quite rightly points out that Trump has not got the authority to change department names
2:18:09
How many times do I have to remind you? So I just wanted, A, to let Robert know
2:18:12
that I have registered and heard his anger and his fury, and to point out, Simon, that when you deploy that phrase
2:18:19
you're doing so in a slightly ironic fashion. Well, yes, I often say the self-styled Secretary of War
2:18:26
Robert is absolutely right. It is still the Department of Defence, even though there are various places in the building
2:18:33
where it says the Department of War, and he is still officially the Secretary of Defence
2:18:39
But at a time when the President calls him the Secretary of War and he calls himself the Secretary of War
2:18:44
I do think if we carried on calling him the Secretary of Defence
2:18:49
we would also be slightly misleading listeners. So it's a complicated one
2:18:52
Indeed it is, but as ever, you navigate it perfectly. Simon, have a lovely weekend
2:18:58
And Simon Marks there, our Washington editor, providing a characteristically perfect ysis
2:19:04
of the latest madnesses to unfold in the United States of America. It's just coming up to 10 to 1
2:19:09
James O'Brien on LBC. 12.52 is the time. If you have detected over the years that we've spent together
2:19:17
that I occasionally do a little bit of mirroring when I'm talking to people
2:19:22
most obviously I think when I'm talking to Irish callers, and I found myself saying grand
2:19:27
in a way that Irish people do, but in a way that I never do unless I'm talking to Irish people
2:19:33
You may have noticed that it also happens with people who are very well spoken
2:19:38
I think you can take the boy out of public school, but you can't always take the public school out of the boy
2:19:43
Bizarrely, Michael Whitehall went to the same public school that I did
2:19:48
So if you do settle down to enjoy this week's full disclosure interview
2:19:53
in which Michael is the esteemed guest, You could be forgiven for thinking that you'd stumbled into an old episode of Jeeves and Wooster
2:20:02
But this, speaking of class, and we were both at a school where our backgrounds were considerably more ordinary than an awful lot of the people that we were at school with
2:20:16
But I think I'd done a decent job of asking him questions that he, and he did a beautiful job of answering them
2:20:23
that will make some of these experiences, although quite personal, I hope they have a wider resonance
2:20:30
because nothing is more intrinsic to the English experience than class, is it
2:20:34
As this rather long clip, I think, amply demonstrates. Well, Roth was one of my best friends
2:20:43
and he was a very sweet boy but much posher than me and his parents lived in a manor house Moorbath Manor in Devon and he asked me to come in the holidays
2:20:58
and spend a few days with his parents, and I said, that'd be lovely
2:21:04
Oh, my mother, of course, then went into complete panic, you know
2:21:08
Oh, my God, what do we... Oh, you must find out. I mean, will they be dressing for dinner
2:21:13
Because it's her dream and her nightmare at the same time, isn't it? Yes, of course. Exactly
2:21:18
And I said, I don't know, mother. But I mean, they live in a manor house, don't they
2:21:23
And I said, well, yes, they do. And she said, oh, God, I don't think I've got anything you can wear
2:21:29
We'd better go into town and get some. You know, there's so much panic about this period
2:21:36
Anyway, I'm finally off to Rothwald's, Moorbath Manor, train and then into the manor and have the first I get there on a Saturday have the Saturday
2:21:50
no I get there on the Friday night and then on the Saturday morning we get up and we're going to
2:21:58
out and about but the first thing to do is to have breakfast so I come down to the dining room
2:22:06
of the manor Major Rothwell I was a bit disappointed that he was a major
2:22:12
I thought I would have thought more Colonel maybe but he was only
2:22:18
a major and I got down into the dining room ahead of everyone else
2:22:24
and I thought well there's no food here I'll just have a cup of tea
2:22:30
so I had a cup of tea and a piece of toast
2:22:35
and I would have thought I thought a house like this they'd come and there'd be a cook
2:22:42
or something a woman would come in with you know eggs and bacons and mushrooms
2:22:47
and omelets and all that but there was no sign of any of that
2:22:51
so I finished my toast and marmalade and tea at which point the doors flung open
2:22:58
and in came Major Rothwell morning old boy how are you doing
2:23:03
and I said, oh, I'm doing fine, yes, thank you very much. No, really lovely to be here and you have a lovely house
2:23:10
And he said, oh, we've been here, you know, my grandfather, the poor and great-grandfather
2:23:16
So not eating anything, I said, toast the mermaid? And I said, yes, I'm absolutely fine
2:23:23
Oh, because it's all over here. And he walked over to this side table where these silver dishes were
2:23:30
which I thought were sort of ornaments, and he lifted them up and one had egg in it
2:23:35
and the other bacon and he started putting all this food in his plate
2:23:40
and he said, you sure you won't change your mind, old boy? And of course I was committed
2:23:45
I'd had the toast and marmalade. I couldn't go back there. So off he went and I felt stupid and I thought I must remember that
2:23:55
And hungry, and hungry. Stupid and hungry. And, I mean, lots of other things
2:24:01
happened in that weekend but I mean this isn't a movie of
2:24:05
the week period. No of course, well it could be it could be almost So
2:24:09
then the return visit occurred and Rothwell came to stay with us
2:24:18
in Beckenham and again I mean Nora was even more of a stay you know because
2:24:23
you would have thought that Rothwell was going to be coming with
2:24:28
you know. A retinue A retinue of people Anyway, so Rothwell arrives and dissolved to a similar situation in the morning
2:24:42
Rothwell comes down for breakfast and it's all gone fine so far
2:24:48
Nora's been sort of fussing around and hoping I didn't say the wrong thing
2:24:52
And Jack, I think, had been sort of banned from the house almost because he might be common and say the wrong thing
2:25:00
anyway, Jack comes down and looks across and sees this table with these silver dishes
2:25:09
and he looks at Nora and says, Nora why have you put bacon
2:25:14
in your jewellery box and she said, what do you mean well, that's the book
2:25:19
that thing is what you normally put all your jewellery and your necklaces and everything in
2:25:27
oh Jack, don't be ridiculous but it's got bacon in it and what about in here and honestly got fried eggs in there
2:25:34
and saying Rothfell will you have a fried egg or I could give you a poached one if you would prefer
2:25:40
you could tell how much I was enjoying that interview and there's a whole hour of it for
2:25:45
you this this weekend you meet a lot of people when you do what I do for a living and and remember
2:25:51
that before I even got my foot through the door at LBC I was a show business journalist allegedly
2:25:56
So I've met a load of people, a load of famous people over the years
2:26:00
I'm not sure I've ever met anybody nicer than Michael Whitehall and his wife, Hillary
2:26:04
And it's no accident that their son, Jack, named, as you discovered in that clip
2:26:08
for his paternal grandfather, it's no accident that their son, Jack, is such a lovely bloke as well
2:26:14
Special prize to anybody who can name the other father-son combinations who have both graced full disclosure, because, of course, Jack Whitehall has already been on it
2:26:24
and now this weekend his dad, Michael, will be... Well, it's already been released
2:26:29
You can listen to that one as well. Can anyone... Have you got any
2:26:33
Who have you got? Can you have a go? I'm going to have a go. Go on, then
2:26:37
Is it Joe Pasquale and his son? Whoa! Well played. Well played, it is
2:26:41
Am I right? Yeah, Joe Pasquale and Joe Trasini. Is there one other? Did I do Roman Kemp
2:26:47
Did I do Roman Kemp? I don't know. I've definitely done Martin. But anyway, yes, Joe Pasquale and Joe Trasini
2:26:54
Both absolutely lovely people. And I think Joe Chassini's on tour at the moment as well
2:26:58
so if there are any tickets available, which is frankly unlikely, you will not regret seeing him on stage
2:27:04
If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBC app
2:27:09
where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinions
2:27:14
You can listen to a range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Daily, the best bits from my LBC show every day
2:27:20
Download the official LBC app for free from your app store now. Coming up at four on LBC, it's Tom Swarbrick
2:27:25
But now, it's time for Sheila Fogarty. I don't think there's anything funnier than Joe Tracini's gymnastics commentary
2:27:30
Just sensational. It's just probably funny. Triple wagon wheel. Your father looks like a moron
2:27:36
Oh, yes. I made that bit up, but as part of it, it's like your father looks like something
2:27:42
It's just so good. Sensational. Anyway. Sensational. James O'Brien on LBC
#news