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Is Britain too centralised? Should more power be handed to local leaders? On Cross Question, Reform UK's Ben Bradley, Labour MP Stella Creasy, SNP MP Kirsty Blackman and The Sun's Political Correspondent Tom Scotson debate whether local government can deliver better outcomes than Westminster and whether Britain's political system is broken. The panel discusses failing councils, devolution, the role of MPs and mayors, and whether politicians have become too focused on local issues instead of national leadership. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #iaindale #ukpolitics #andyburnham #keirstarmer #westminster #downingstreet #labourparty #reformuk #snp #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
On CrossQuestion tonight, we have ReformUK's Ben Bradley, Stella Creasy from Labour, Kirsty Blackman from the SNP and Tom Scottson from The Sun
0:08
Right, a text question from Kevin. It's become received wisdom that local leaders will automatically be better at making decisions than central government
0:17
But look at failing councils right across the country. Doesn't that tell you everything you need to know
0:23
Well, there is a view among many people, I think in political parties as well, that most people who go into, I won't say most, but some people who go into local politics who end up running councils wouldn't be trusted with running a whelk stall
0:37
Ben Bradley, you have been a local councillor and you've led your local council and your county council
0:50
Do you have some sympathy with what Kevin is saying? that. I mean, let's take the humour out of it. I mean, he does have a point, doesn't he
0:58
I think there's a huge challenge in local government because in the current framework, it's unsustainable. So you have moved from a place where councils were there to deliver
1:07
local services on the basis of genuinely local need to a place where councils are the delivery
1:12
arm of central government and are largely social care providers with everything else
1:16
being squeezed out around the edges. So councillors who I think, you know, for whatever level
1:22
of background they have, whatever professionalism they have, usually come into local councils because they care about the community
1:29
because they want to do something genuine. Very few are political, really. I mean, I run a group of 38 councillors
1:35
and I could count the number of politicians in inverted commas on one hand, probably
1:40
They're good people who want to try and do something on a local level. Actually, what you find when you arrive is you become a forensic accountant
1:46
who's got to dive through all the books and try and find multi-tens of millions of pounds of savings every year
1:51
because the model is unsustainable. And you go back round around the same conversations
1:56
How many times have we done social care reform and got nine tenths of the way up the hill
2:00
and then turned back round and come down again? Until stuff like that is fundamentally resolved
2:06
then it's not going to work. It's not going to work for anybody. And we've all, you know
2:09
it's a bit like the devolution question, isn't it? We can um and ah about the boundaries and what structures of councils will work
2:14
But until you resolve the fundamental question of what are local councils for
2:19
and for me that is local choices and community delivery and all those very, very hyper-local services that people expect
2:26
what is it not for, which is to push through all the mandated stuff in central government that they don't want to take responsibility for
2:31
and don't fund properly, then actually it isn't going to be fixed
2:35
And that's not because of the quality of people. I mean, I work day to day with reform councils across the country
2:41
Like any party, like any set of councillors, there are brilliant ones, there are not so brilliant ones
2:45
But some of those councils are doing amazing stuff, right? And doing genuinely unique stuff in really, really difficult circumstances
2:55
as are councillors across the country and other parties right But it is literally trying to keep the show on the road You don have the bandwidth financially to deliver the real change you would want to deliver That requires really driven and focused central government reform
3:09
And still, I'm not seeing where that comes from under the current government. OK, Tom
3:14
I think Ben's broadly right. And I think there's a couple of reasons for that. I think that a lot of the councillors skew older
3:19
so they don't necessarily encapsulate that more diverse generation or really reflect different age groups and their priorities
3:26
I think also it's poorly paid, so I guess why would people give up a very good job
3:30
Maybe they're making a large amount of money and going to local council
3:34
And as you said, as a lot of them, they're either apolitical or in a couple of years' time they've got their eye on a Westminster seat
3:40
so they're going purely for the focus of becoming an MP. And I think this kind of also taps into another problem of what Westminster's become
3:47
and it's sort of tried to mirror what maybe a local councillor is
3:51
And you get more local champions now becoming MPs, very focused on their area
3:56
rather than being the best member of parliament that could represent an area and potentially being a minister
4:01
or a cabinet minister. And I think that's why now you get a lot of MPs that aren't fit really to be in the government
4:08
but are very concerned about a couple of thousand houses being built in their area
4:11
which would be beneficial to many young people. So I think we've kind of got this crisis at the moment
4:16
where there's not enough good councillors because it's poorly paid. But also at the same time, you've also got this huge problem
4:23
where MPs and many of them are just local champions solely rather than being, you know, this kind of intellectual bright spot
4:30
That's enough of that, Stella. Yeah, cheers, Tom. I mean, I always thought that about people watching
4:37
Have you ever been a councillor? Yes. I did all the comedy job titles
4:42
I was mayor because the mayor died in office. and so I had my LBJ moment
4:46
and I was Chief Whip and after that I thought I've done all the ones with the weird titles that at the age of 25
4:50
people are like, that is strange. Where was this? At Waltham Forest, where I was now the MP
4:56
I stood for council in Waltham Forest on a couple of occasions when I lived there
5:00
Oh, we must have crossed over. Didn't get beaten by Stella, did you? Probably
5:04
1989-90, you would have still been at school. No, no, I would have still been at school. I reject this, partly because
5:09
and I'm trying to gloss over it in the politest way I can
5:14
No, but this is a really important point for me because I hear this a lot, this idea that MPs have just become glorified social workers
5:21
Two things. The country isn't broken. Our politics is. It starts the fact that nobody has a job description
5:27
So I always thought Boris Johnson was right when he said that people go and see their MP because they've run out better ideas of things to do
5:32
And actually, we don't have a formal, we have very little formal power. We have influence
5:37
But I always have a discipline that if I can't justify the thing I'm working on in Walthamstown, Westminster and vice versa, I shouldn't be doing it
5:44
So, yes, I do a lot of community organising. I do a lot of casework because I look at every bit of casework and go, is this an outlier
5:52
Is this a really extreme thing that's happened that will never happen again? And it just a question of supporting somebody through this Or is this telling me something about the way in which we run this country that broken that needs fixing that we working on things like payday lending that we working on women rights and abortion tackling things like solar panels and how do you
6:07
actually do bulk buying which is what we're now doing in walthamstow come from but i do it with
6:11
the sole intent of saying actually this is telling us something when you lose that connection you
6:15
lose something very precious in the british system that they don't have and they don't value in other
6:19
political systems and i genuinely think we should value it be clear about what those powers are with
6:24
how it interconnects with local government, because you're right, local government and MPs often end up in tension, big fish and small ponds
6:31
But actually being clear about how the process of change happens, it is about the networks and the relationships you build
6:37
Our state can't keep up with the way the world is changing so quickly. People need to be the interconnections between it. That's why it isn't the country that's broken its politics
6:45
But I would also reject the sense that, of course, it's nice that they've got a sense of community and they are tied to it
6:50
But you look at the two most effective prime ministers within the last 50 years. You look at Tony Blair and Margaret Thatcher
6:56
They didn't come from their own constituency. Will you be rude about Clement Attlee? Because he's from Wollstone's Dome
7:01
I think this is kind of the problem that there is maybe an expectation
7:05
among the electorate that they've got to come from that certain patch. And therefore, as I mentioned before
7:11
the two most effective prime ministers that we've seen and did bring radical change wouldn't have been eligible for
7:15
I have always said to my local residents, if all I bring is the postcode, that is not enough
7:19
But an understanding of living a shared life and going, hang on a minute, what is it about our community
7:24
that can offer this country? That's why I go back to what I like to what Andy Burnham said today
7:28
is it's not an either or. There are kids all around this country who could do amazing things
7:32
Barriers hold them back. We all miss out as a result. I know who those kids are in Walthamstow
7:37
They'll be different in your part of town. That's literally just what Boris Johnson said in slightly different language
7:41
That is harsh. Just because I'm blonde, mate. That is rude. Better hair, though
7:46
But the fact is that by sort of saying that all the wealth
7:51
is centred in London. I mean, look, I know your patch, you know your patch better than I do
7:56
even though I did live there for a few years. But I mean, it's not a rich area
8:01
There are pockets of real poverty in a lot of London boroughs. And to pitch, as I think he almost was
8:07
on the edge of doing today, London against the rest of the country
8:11
I thought that that is not a good way to go. Well, I don't think it's Andy Burnham who's doing it
8:16
I think for too long, our politics has become balkanised into this idea that there need to be winners and losers
8:20
and what you vote for in different parties are the people who they want to blame, if it's immigrants or big business
8:26
And none of it actually solves any of these problems. What's interesting about the Manchester model, what's interesting actually
8:31
I think to be fair to Sadiq, he's trying to do, is how do you bring people together around an outcome
8:35
What I think people get frustrated about with politics and politicians is they come to us for an outcome and we all say
8:41
it's not us, mate, it's the council, it's the government. Kirsty's frustrated because I haven't brought her in yet
8:45
Just going back to the question that Kevin asked, in terms of, you know, the kind of devolution of power
8:51
If you have a rubbish mayor or a rubbish local council then the people in that area suffer If we got a rubbish prime minister then every one of us suffers So actually the more that you devolve power the more you are protected from having a
9:07
rubbish prime minister. It's absolutely the case. You two just rays of sunshine
9:13
today, aren't you? It's not sunny out there, though. Exactly what you were saying. People are struggling
9:19
They're finding things really, really difficult. But they don't need us to find someone to blame. They need us
9:23
to find some answers. But it might be the case, if Andy Burnham
9:27
devolves more power to different areas, that Birmingham comes up with a really great
9:31
idea that can be used in Manchester, that can be used in Liverpool, that can be used in
9:35
Glasgow, right? You know, maybe. You know, I don't know. I don't know anything about English geography
9:41
right? I just know that those are cities, so that's as close as it gets
9:45
If it's not between Dundee and Elgin, I don't know where it is. Believe it or not, do you know
9:49
that Manchester isn't even Britain's third largest city by population? Do you know which is? I have no idea. Leeds
9:56
I know, do you know what? Somebody mentioned Leeds to me this morning in a random conversation
10:00
It's a city in Yorkshire. I don't have a clue where it is. Although I was told
10:05
that Leeds Castle is in Kent and I'm pretty sure that Leeds isn't. But you know what
10:11
Just go back to the north thing, right? Manchester's barely in the north of England
10:15
in geographical terms, right? You know, calling yourself the, if you draw a line
10:20
from the top to the bottom of England, Manchester's not that, you know, not that far
10:23
Ian's struggling with that side of Watford. right now. It would take me four hours to drive south to Manchester from where I live, right? So
10:32
you know, he needs to, if he's going to do this kind of big tent thing, if he's going to think
10:36
about areas outside London, he needs to talk to the rest of us, not just what he classes as the
10:43
North. You know, he needs to talk to Wales, he needs to listen to Wales, he needs to talk to
10:47
Scotland, he needs to listen to Scotland. Or he's going to risk becoming a Prime Minister for the
10:53
north of England, you know, in the same way that people might consider Keir Starmer or some of the
10:59
other prime ministers who have prime ministers for London. You know, he needs to think about that
11:04
language. Well, Michael says, please, please, please stop broadcasting negative news. You must
11:10
always look for a more positive approach. It reminds me of Margaret Thatcher once said to a journalist
11:15
stop being a moaning mini. You've been very positive, haven't you, Stella, throughout all of
11:21
this. No, but come on, let's have a moment about this because you would expect me as a London MP
11:27
to recognise that concern that again, we're still going to see this sectarianism
11:31
Actually, I just think it's quite striking that Andy is taking that argument
11:35
head on. Our socialism shouldn't be that somebody has to suffer for you to thrive. You're getting it wrong if that's
11:41
what happens. So what you need to work out is where is the talent? Where is the opportunity
11:45
How do you bring it all together? The secret is not to have socialism. Well, that's why you never succeeded in Walthamstone
11:51
mate because it's God's own country and therefore we care about each other. It couldn't be worse than the last
11:55
guy, that's optimistic. 8.47. Are you talking about Farage? LAUGHTER
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