Up next in 10
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 20th of April 2026. 00:00 - Starmer prepares to face MPs in the Commons this afternoon - How serious is this for Starmer? 50:08 - What might you point to as proof of Trump's mental decline? 01:37:50 - If you're supportive of the Jewish Community in Britain and against Netanyahu's actions in the Middle East, do you feel anxious about expressing your views? 02:15:57 - Starmer prepares to face MPs in the commons - Aggie Chambre, LBC's Deputy Political Correspondent #jamesobrien #politics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Three minutes after 10. Good morning. Monday. Hope you had a lovely weekend. If you're very good
0:07
I'll tell you, well, gig I went to last Friday, on Friday night. One of the finest gigs of my life
0:13
actually. That's such a lovely thing to happen when you're 50. How old am I, Keith? 54, am I now
0:20
Well, this has started well, hasn't it? This is like tuning into the sort of musings of
0:24
Donald Trump Tribute Act. We will get on to the mental state of the president at 11 o'clock today
0:32
I've always been slightly wary of going all in on the mental acuity thing
0:36
I don't know why, given the way that other people spoke about Joe Biden. But it seems to me that if you don't have the qualifications or the diagnostic tools
0:44
it can be slightly choppy waters. But three commentators who I hold in very different regards
0:50
I would loosely say one deeply admirable former newspaper editor, who is a bit of a journalistic hero of mine, one absolutely bonkers Brexiter, and one formatory MP turned columnist, who I always find thought-provoking and interesting, have all written pieces in the last few days suggesting that Donald Trump's mental state, mental fragility, is now so serious that he should be remembered
1:20
moved as president. I just wonder why now, we may get on to that in the next hour of the program
1:28
I think in the final hour, as things stand, we'll turn our attention back to these horrible attacks
1:33
on synagogues that are understandably causing great fear and upset among British Jews, and try
1:40
to work out how we can properly separate perfectly reasonable criticism of the Israeli regime with
1:48
repulsion, perfectly necessary repulsion at acts of proper antisemitism. I have a sort of horrible
1:54
feeling that those of us who are simultaneously repulsed by what's gone on in Gaza and repulsed
2:00
by antisemitism have been squeezed out of the conversation almost entirely. I don't know why
2:05
but we shall unsqueeze ourselves after 12 o'clock today. But we begin with the Prime Minister
2:14
And I said something to you on Friday that I thought long and hard about sharing it with you
2:21
Well, as long and hard as I think about anything, which is usually about a minute and a half. But I am conscious of this thing that happens
2:27
when I see the current government, the Labour government, behaving in ways that seem to me to be similar to
2:38
the way that previous Tory governments behaved. because I was absolutely unstinting in my criticism
2:47
and condemnation of the way that those previous Tory governments behaved. I think back to, I mean, today, for example
2:53
I was just wondering on the way down the stairs whether we know what happened with regards to Dominic Cummings being vetted
3:00
Do we ever get to the bottom of whether or not Dominic Cummings successfully passed developed vetting
3:05
A brilliant guest on Friday, Callum Miller, explaining politicians themselves don't get vetted
3:11
So Boris Johnson partying with Russian spies while Foreign Secretary would not have been something that was poured over with a fine tooth comb by the relevant authorities
3:23
But I never quite, I remember some reports or rumours, but did we ever get to the bottom of what Dominic Cummings' security vetting status was
3:30
I ask only because I worry, I told you, didn't I, on Friday, I worry sometimes that I might bend too far towards criticism of the current government in order to prove that I'm not suffering from some form of footballification or some form of bias
3:49
and I didn't spend the whole weekend thinking about things but I did spend the occasional moment over the course of the weekend
3:56
just trying to get an objective handle on how big a deal this story is
4:03
I don't like the phrase stormtrooper. I only discovered it in the middle of last week
4:08
but it refers to people who are somewhat blind in their loyalty to the Prime Minister
4:13
They think that every criticism of him is a sort of Rupert Murdoch-inspired conspiracy
4:18
and that the sharpening of knives has been orchestrated and manipulated and the poor guy can't get a break and he's the best prime minister since Churchill
4:28
and if only they were better at communications than everybody would realise that
4:32
I think that's a slightly ridiculous position. Well, I think it's a kind of stone-cold ridiculous position
4:40
But I understand it. I saw a slight desperation to have a semblance of stability and normality
4:46
after the madness that we've endured. Equally silly, staying on the left for a while
4:50
are the people that think every iota of evidence that Keir Starmer is imperfect
4:57
is held up by some people as proof that Jeremy Corbyn was a man more sinned against than sinning
5:03
which is, again, a position that is impossible to sustain with any form of logic
5:08
but we're not really talking about logic, are we? We're talking about emotions here
5:13
So those two positions are relatively silly. Keir Starmer is absolutely awful
5:17
he's the Antichrist, is a position held by many on the left. And similarly, he's not a very naughty boy
5:23
He's the Messiah, is a position held by people who traditionally would have voted for the same party
5:29
And it does mean that every... And then, of course, you've got the distorting lens of right-wing media
5:33
which we all have to rely on, right? I mean, it's sad but true
5:38
Oh, I had a big insight about the BBC this weekend. Do remind me to share it with you
5:42
But it's sad but true that we all rely to some degree
5:46
on media that is editorially dominated by right-wing beliefs, by right-wing politics, by right-wing writers
5:58
I mean, it is, frankly, hilarious how hard it is to assemble in your own mind
6:02
a list of, say, five people with high-profile positions in the UK media
6:07
espousing essentially liberal or leftish positions, while you could probably name a hundred from the right without drawing breath
6:14
So inevitably, that sort of skews us all. It creates an ecosystem, an environment in which we all, we don't dance to their tune
6:25
but we certainly hear it more loudly than we do any other. So then I worry that my own conviction on Friday that this was a really big deal
6:33
and potentially career-ending for Keir Starmer is partly as a response to not wanting to be as hypocritical
6:41
and as biased as many Boris Johnson cheerleaders were a few years ago
6:47
but also a consequence of having to rely upon hideously biased media
6:51
for all accounts or even for my understanding of what is going on
6:57
And that's why today I'm still fascinated by the question of how serious this transgression is
7:06
If he lied and it is proved or it emerges, if he lied knowingly, and you can't really lie unknowingly
7:13
you can say something not true by accident, despite Kemi Bedanoff, but I love Kemi Bedanoff
7:19
I probably shouldn't admit to this live on the radio, but goodness me if I ever hear that she popping up on a programme I turn the volume up There something just inspirational about her utter detachment from reality Has there ever been a less self public figure in this country in your lifetime
7:36
It's magnificent to watch. I feel almost sort of boosted by her detachment from reality
7:45
It's like an example to us all. You could live like that. I reckon I could drive a Formula One car to victory in a Grand Prix
7:53
if I had Kemi Badenoch's levels of delusion and detachment from reality
7:58
So despite her best efforts, I don't think anybody is currently of the view
8:02
probably including her, despite what she says, I don't think anybody is currently of the view that Keir Starmer lied
8:09
If he had knowingly lied, if he had knowingly misled Parliament, then he would be toast
8:16
And it doesn't matter. We touched on this on Friday as well, didn't we? It doesn't matter that previous regimes, previous administrations, have moved heaven and earth to protect themselves and each other when they have broken the ministerial code
8:30
I think probably most obviously it would be Boris Johnson responding to Priti Patel being a bully
8:36
Not Priti Patel being fired by Theresa May for having secret meetings with the foreign government without telling the actual Prime Minister
8:43
But Priti Patel being found to be a bully by an independent inquiry
8:48
and Boris Johnson instructing everybody on the team to protect her, to form a square around her
8:53
So just because previous administrations treated breaches of the ministerial code with absolute contempt and derision
9:01
doesn't mean that we should, of course. It means that they have to be better, to paraphrase Hillary Clinton
9:07
When they go low, we go high. So you've got all of those things jostling for prominence
9:13
all of those things jostling for attention. And a danger, because of all that noise
9:22
of losing sight of how serious this actually is. Step away from the noise, the tabloid noise
9:31
the phone-in noise even, a little bit, the right-wing noise, the left-wing noise
9:36
the stormtrooper noise, well, let's just say the loyalist noise. Everybody's shouting quite loudly
9:42
Some people shouting, Kemi Badenoch's crew, shouting that this is, I mean
9:46
obviously staying silent about all of the appalling conduct that they either endorsed or were
9:53
complicit in or stayed silent about at the time pretending that Keir Starmer is some sort of vile
9:58
transgressor of political norms that's clearly not true then you've got the people shouting
10:04
very loudly that he's done absolutely nothing wrong and this is all evidence of conspiracies
10:10
and hideous bias and unfairness. They're shouting very loudly as well. And then you've got the media that loves nothing more than chaos
10:19
and has done now for the best part of ten years. We're all addicted to chaos
10:24
And therefore the once unthinkable almost notion of a prime minister being hounded out of office
10:31
by their own conduct or their own MPs, that's become relatively normal now
10:36
It happened two out of the last three prime ministers it actually happened to when I was growing up it was almost unheard of Margaret Thatcher probably
10:44
being the most obvious example of it to lose your leadership without losing an election
10:49
close to unthinkable but here we are now two out of the last three have been in that category so
10:55
the media and the public have become a little bit addicted to the idea and I mean that's three
11:04
crowds, the loyalists, the denialists, the chaos theorists, there's probably more crowds as well
11:15
under all of the readings of this situation, the truth sometimes gets buried. So I just want to
11:22
collect, I think it was Michelle Obama, not Hillary Clinton, that said, when they go low
11:26
we go high. My apologies. I think I just want to get a proper objective, grown-up, informed handle
11:33
on how big a deal this is, right? Keir Starmer repeatedly stated
11:39
that Peter Mandelson had passed his vetting, that due process had been followed
11:46
We now know that that was not true. We also know, unless something very unexpected emerges
11:51
in the next few hours, we also know that he didn't know it was not true
11:57
That the civil service, for whatever reason, most probably because they bend to the will of the top man
12:04
They work out what they think the Prime Minister wants and do everything they can to deliver it
12:09
They didn't tell him that Peter Mandelson had failed developed vetting. So he waltzed off to Washington with access to classified material
12:21
potentially despite the security services having concluded that he should not have had it
12:27
that he was some form of security risk. I suspect a little more with a reference to his Chinese and Russian associations
12:36
than anything to do with Jeffrey Epstein, but that's something else we may never discover. Prime Minister stands up, states that his new ambassador has got the gig
12:44
and has been vetted. It turns out he hasn't, although no one at the moment is claiming that he knew that
12:54
when he made his claims. How big a deal is this? And what I like about having this conversation today
13:04
is that we've had a couple of days of dust settling. It felt to me on Friday huge
13:13
It doesn't... Well, I kind of need you to either reinflate my anger or upset
13:22
or whatever it is, or indeed, to do a Michael Winner and tell me to calm down, dear
13:29
Seriously, you know the facts now. We've had time to cogitate and contemplate
13:36
In isolation, if you remove it from everything else, in isolation, where does this sit on the scale of political scandals
13:46
Do you know, I've got a feeling, and I could be completely wrong here
13:52
I've got a feeling that this is not going to be remembered isn't it
14:01
the resignation over Epstein is what's going to be remembered a year from now
14:06
or two years from now I don't like the phrase nothing burger but it does fit the bill
14:12
sometimes doesn't it it's got a nice sort of ring to it
14:16
I just wonder when you remove all of that noise the sort of deluded denialists
14:22
the Tories who've presided over infinitely worse conduct and had absolutely nothing to say about any of it
14:29
The Starmer loyalists who think that every single thing he ever gets wrong
14:34
is the consequence of some hideous conspiracy and that he is a man infinitely more sinned against than sinning
14:40
The chaos theorists who, and I've got a horrible feeling I sometimes veer into this territory
14:45
who rub our hands with glee at the idea of having more content, more input
14:49
remove all of that from the conversation what are you left with Honestly where does this sit Just give me a number if you want on a scale of one to ten In the context in the history in the annals of political scandals Keir
15:08
Starmer, not knowing that Peter Mandelson had failed his developed vetting, and telling
15:13
various institutions and individuals that due process had been followed, where does this
15:20
sit in your mind on the scandal scale 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need it's 18 minutes
15:29
after 10 hit the numbers now you will get through that's it i just want you to tell me and and
15:33
listen i'm entirely yours this morning on friday i i was surprised by how let down i felt by keir
15:41
starmer but someone asked me at sunday lunch why and i articulated why and they sort of said but
15:47
that's not, that's a bit personal. That's not actually, you're not responding
15:51
to his actual conduct. You're just responding to the mood, to the vibe, the idea that he would be
15:57
the man that always got process right. And there's no evidence here that he
16:01
didn't. He just wasn't across the information that he was sharing. I
16:05
couldn't quite pin down whatever it was that I came on air with on Friday
16:09
when I told you, I mean we spent three hours talking about
16:13
it, that this was both huge and deeply, deeply damaging. So, I kind of want you to get me back there, if you can, to remind me why this
16:23
is a much bigger deal than it feels today. Or, of course, to join me in wondering what
16:30
all the fuss is actually about. 03456060973. And part of the reason for this question is
16:40
the dialing down of noise over the weekend. I thought it would get dialed up, but by this
16:46
morning, um, it's, it, it, it, it's not really even between the lines
16:52
of much of the coverage, even in the insane newspapers like the Daily Mail. The, the, the baying for blood, the idea that he
16:58
won't survive this seems to me to have sailed, which makes me
17:02
wonder whether we all got a little bit carried away at the end of last week, and, uh
17:07
and, and normality or good sense is being restored this morning. So go on, how big a deal is it, and why
17:12
For you, personally, 0345 6060 973. James O'Brien on LBC. It is 22 minutes after 10
17:21
You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. And I also wonder what you want to know
17:26
what you want to do today. What do you want to emerge? What do you need before you can fully form
17:31
your view of this story? Because I can't remember the last time this happened
17:35
and I'm a little bit embarrassed by some of the context. So on Friday, I was very much..
17:41
I mean, I can see where the negative views of Keir Starmer come from, the ones that were in place before Friday, the speed with which
17:50
he sacked Olly Robbins, the way in which nothing's ever his fault. It's not quite shaggy territory
17:55
because he is talking about how furious he is and nobody told me. At what point does the buck stop
18:01
with the actual Prime Minister? So I'm beginning to get a better handle on some of the dissatisfaction
18:07
and unhappiness on a very personal ad hominem level with Keir Starmer and this story will add
18:12
to that. But this actual episode on Friday looked like it might be career-ending. By
18:18
Monday, it appears to be relatively low-key. I don't know. I don't want to put words in your mouth. You tell me
18:26
why we should actually be sharpening our cudgels and baying for blood. Or
18:30
what it is you want to find out later today that will allow you to
18:34
form a full and frank conclusion. Alex is in tooting. Alex, what would you like to say
18:40
Good morning, James. How are you? Very well, Alex. What's on your mind? Well, I've got another of my theories for you
18:46
But anyway, the thing I'm really interested in is actually the process by which these decisions
18:52
and the vetting was actually made. I would like to know actually what the process was
18:57
Yes. Which bits would you like to know? Well, the whole process
19:02
We covered quite a lot of it on Friday with Callum Miller, who used to work in the Cabinet Office
19:07
and is very au fait with what would have happened. But also I wanted to know who sets up the process, when was it set up, and how often is it validated
19:16
Because if this is a process, for example, that actually has carried on since the time of the previous governments
19:23
then actually surely they must take some responsibility for that as well
19:29
So that's my first thing. The other thing is I think it's not such a great big problem for Starmer
19:34
because actually, I think, as he's shown in the last few weeks
19:38
over the conflict in the Middle East, I think he's someone who actually does assess a lot of evidence
19:43
does it very, very carefully. He has a lawyer's mind. I'm going off this argument
19:49
There's nothing personal to you. But, I mean, he's not doing a very good job as a lawyer on this occasion, is he
19:55
This is not very lawyerly behaviour. If this was a case and he brought a witness into court
20:00
and made announcements without triple-checking that turned out to be untrue, that were contradicted in the witness box by the actual witness
20:11
He said, oh, the witness was at McDonald's at 10 o'clock on Thursday
20:15
and the witness arrived in the witness box. I said, well, actually, no, I wasn't. Then we wouldn't be sitting here going
20:20
oh, yes, he's got a wonderful legal mind. He's such a cross-the-detail. He's a real process man
20:25
This is evidence of the opposite. Well, I'm not sure. Of course it is
20:30
He passed vetting and he didn't pass vetting. Okay, well, that aside, I mean, to answer your initial question
20:38
what do I want to know? I want to know far more about the process, who sets that up
20:43
who actually reassesses the process and how often that actually happens. And I think actually that's core to the whole thing
20:50
Yeah, but you would want to know all of that prior to this event happening
20:55
This is all information that would be interesting. Ideally, yes. Ideally, yes
21:00
Yeah, okay. And what would, for you, constitute a smoking gun or a coffin nail for the current Prime Minister
21:08
I don't think this is... Personally, I don't think this is something that's going to do for him
21:14
So, Olly Robbins, nor do I now, but why did I on Friday? Actually, that's a question for my psychologist, not for you
21:20
Well, you see, I was quite close to you on Friday because I thought, oh, this is such a storm in a teacup
21:25
You know, blah, blah, blah, blah. Did you? Yes. Sorry. That's all right, Ben. I don't have to apologise
21:29
I do have to apologise. Nobody's perfect, Alex. Ollie Robbins, as I read at the weekend, believes he wasn't allowed to tell
21:38
Because that's the kind of thing you want to find out more about. Yeah, absolutely
21:42
Yeah. I mean, that is a bit bonkers, isn't it? So we've done a vetting on your new ambassador
21:47
It turns out he's a wrong one, but we can't tell you. How does that work? I mean, that's what Alex is talking about
21:52
This is the kind of stuff that sort of... It doesn't paint Starmer in a bad light, if it's true
21:57
that Ollie Robbins isn't allowed to tell him. But if he's not allowed to tell him, Starmer shouldn't have sacked him
22:04
I mean, he's absolutely right. This is like Kremlinology. How can you sack someone for doing their job correctly
22:11
If his job entails he's not allowed to tell the Prime Minister that a diplomat has fa... Oh, man, alive
22:17
But the more you talk about it, the more you wonder whether, actually, it is just a storm in a teacup
22:22
And this is where... The reason I apologise to Alex, is I kind of warned you on Friday that I try so hard not to be the sort of client journalist shill for Labour that so many people were for the Tories which of course ended up with them defending Boris Johnson
22:37
even as he was breaking laws and promises and lying as if it was going out of fashion
22:42
And of course a lot of those people got so addicted to the depravity that they ended up cheerleading for Donald Trump
22:48
and using phrases like Trump derangement syndrome to describe people who were telling the truth
22:52
So you sort of guard so hard against going even a few paces down that road
22:57
that you end up making the opposite mistake, which is seeing scandal where perhaps there wasn't much
23:03
NJ is in Cheddar in Somerset. NJ, what would you like to say? I'm in the firm
23:09
I think it's forming a take-up. I've been through SV checking before
23:14
SV checking before. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was a police officer
23:19
I mean, I've been 32 years in security of services. Specialist firearms officer instructor for the police
23:25
and also did close protection as well. So looking after royalty and also looking after government people
23:32
So the storming a teacup thing for me is if you put into your vetting and that goes up to the vetting agency
23:40
and then it comes back, you get told that you're failed. So he would have known that he'd have failed for one
23:48
Mandelson would have done. Yes, he'd have been told that he'd failed. 100% he'd have been told that he'd failed
23:55
He wouldn't have been told the reasons why he's failed. And this is why... Well, you can't say 100%
23:59
Well, I mean, I mean... Do we not? Are you sure? I mean, are you 150% sure
24:07
I'm talking about my level of... Oh, OK. So, because I can't quite believe Mandelson got told he'd failed to develop vetting
24:14
Well, I kind of... I kind of disagree because... Oh, OK. And the only reason I say that is..
24:21
Do you know, like, people are going, you can't say why you failed. That is true
24:25
So if, for instance, a third party, for instance, said he was a drink driver
24:32
or said he was a risk to something, he may still fail, but you would never know who that person was
24:39
because that's against the law. Okay, I think Mandelson has let it be known that he didn't know
24:48
But then who can believe a word that he says anyway? that's the whole point isn't it
24:52
I've just slightly high-fived you there thank you very much in my personal
24:59
humble view I think well I kind of know and I've got friends who've worked in
25:05
different places and stuff if you fail your DB you get told and then
25:11
the job will then tell you that you've failed the only way that you can then
25:16
say for instance in a police force if you fail that the person that holds the rights for appeal
25:25
is the deputy chief constable, not the chief, the deputy chief constable. And then you can apply for them to go
25:31
and have this looked at again. So the DV works differently through the security services
25:36
although there is still that chain of command of where they would know. So Stammer might not have known
25:42
He might not have known. He might have actually been told, and this is the weirdest thing
25:46
that he passed because Robbins may have said, you know what, after all these checks and stuff
25:52
ticking the green box is okay. Because... Well, that's what Starmer got told
25:58
Yeah, and that's why I... So, okay, I don't know if it's very professional of me
26:03
to ask you this question. What happened to us on... Well, what happened to me on Friday, then
26:08
You got sucked in, my friend. Did I? Yeah, I believe so
26:12
You got sucked in, and everyone was like, ooh, everyone liked, at the moment
26:16
someone to be criticised, fall on the bandwagon, go down that route. I mean, yeah, Trump is a psycho, but let's talk about it later
26:22
We are, actually. That's in the next hour of the programme. It's almost like you've been privy to our production meeting, such as it is
26:28
which is just Eleanor and I chewing the fat as we walk upstairs. Is it upstairs or downstairs
26:33
That bit there, I mean, I got sucked in. The Prime Minister told the House of Commons
26:41
that Peter Mandelson's appointment had been entirely respectable, and he failed development
26:49
That's what I thought was a huge deal. And it still is a huge deal
26:53
but it's not, and this is where the dust has settled over the weekend, it's not as damaging to Starmer
26:59
as it felt on Friday. I don't know that we got sucked in. I think we just got carried away
27:05
if that's a different thing at all. Well, I think it's similar
27:09
Similar may be the same, although it's a different word. I'd be surprised if Starmer
27:16
resigns. He's not going. I don't think he's going anywhere, and I don't think he should now, whereas on Friday
27:22
I thought it was 52-48 that he would go, and should go. So, I
27:26
don't know. I've done this job for long enough, I think. I'll let you decide on this, Anjay
27:31
Have I earned the right, once or twice a year, to ask my callers to
27:34
account for my own mistakes? 100%. Thank you very much. So, why did
27:38
I get it so wrong on Friday? 0345 6060973. If, of course, indeed I did, it may well be
27:44
that the pendulum swings back in the course of the next few minutes
27:49
Dominic Ellis is here now with your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
27:54
10.35 is the time. It's extraordinary how many people listening to this programme
27:57
have been through developed vetting. Well, not extraordinary. I don't know. But I haven't
28:02
Mark has, as part of my duties in the Army, I can tell you it's absolutely rubbish
28:07
to state that the Prime Minister could not have been told that Mandelson had not passed developed vetting
28:12
it's true that he could not be told the reason why he failed but he could certainly have been told
28:17
that it had been failed and that would have been enough the whole thing stinks to high heaven
28:22
um yes it does but does the stench attach itself to starma and i'm increasingly in the view this
28:30
morning that it doesn't particularly um he adds mark in saint aubans as your previous call as per
28:35
your previous caller mandelson would have been told that he failed but even he would not have
28:39
been told the reason why. I mean, again, the police, the army
28:43
the fields of experience that my contributors are drawing on, so far, do not
28:47
include the diplomatic service, but you have to presume that there would be
28:51
a crossover, don't you? And that's why, if I did this every day, it would be absolutely
28:59
disgraceful. But what happened on Friday? When it wasn't just me, it was a fairly balanced
29:06
show, wasn't it? It was a fairly equal split, between people who thought Starmer could and should be toast
29:12
and people who didn't. There was very few people who were 100% nothing burger
29:17
There's absolutely nothing to see here. There were some. So what, I mean, did we fall into a trap of our own making
29:24
I'm not sure. Nadia puts it well. Keir Starmer was told due process had been followed and completed
29:30
which is true. He was not, however, told the result of the vetting that Mandelson had failed
29:35
So to be fair to Starmer, he didn't mislead Parliament as due process had been followed, which it had
29:42
And all this will end, says David, as a damp squib, and we'll all realise we've wasted our weekend discussing it non-stop
29:47
Speak for yourself, David. I saw James live at the O2 on Friday night
29:51
I was talking about that for most of the weekend. How do you manage to have a band
29:55
that is, over the course of almost 40 years, It's your most consistent favourite
30:01
The band that has brought you the most joy, the most solace, the most dance moves
30:07
over the best part of four decades, and yet you've never got around to seeing them live
30:11
In the back of my mind, I thought I'd seen them live. I thought I saw them at Band on the Wall
30:15
in Manchester a million years ago, but when I actually sat down on the Tube on Friday
30:20
to make my way to the O2, I did a sort of mental audit, and I thought, no, you didn't
30:25
You saw loads of bands there, and at the International, and at the Hacienda
30:29
but you never actually, I don't think I ever saw James live. And then on Friday night, I witnessed one of the finest concerts
30:35
You know some bands just transcend when they're performing on stage? They are even more than they are on record
30:43
And James are very much in that category. Tim Boo, the frontman for the ages
30:49
And the rest of the line, it was a touch of the avant-garde. There's incredible virtuoso musicianship
30:53
The guitarist swaps out his guitar for a cello for a few tracks. I honestly, it made me feel 18 again
30:59
And I'll tell you what, if 18-year-old me, anyway, could hear me now
31:03
10.38 is the time. Maria is in Liverpool. Stare us back to the politics. Maria, what would you like to say
31:09
Hi, James. Right, just a couple of points. Yes. First of all, Angela Rayner
31:16
You know, either she had to resign because she didn't take the right information
31:22
Not quite. She had to resign because of the inquiry by the independent ministerial advisor on ethics saying that she'd made a boo-boo
31:32
Yeah. So should Keir Starmer not report himself to that organisation to be investigated
31:39
Absolutely. He may well. Yeah. So that's what I'd like to do
31:44
But that involves there being somebody somewhere accusing him of something. And at the moment there isn't
31:50
Nobody is saying, I told you. And you ignored it. no one is challenging his version of events
31:56
So I don't think this lands in quite the way that you thought it would
32:01
I actually think it does. I think it's hypocritical that standards are set for some people and not for others
32:09
So what are you accusing him of then? I'm accusing him of not taking the advice that he should have took because..
32:19
But he wasn't given that advice. You can't take advice you haven't been given. No, Mandelson was put in place before the vetting was completed
32:28
Yeah, he shouldn't have done that. I worked in the civil service, James, and there is no way I would have been off
32:35
I was offered a number of jobs on promotion. There is no way I'd have been offered that job
32:41
In fact, I thought I'd lost one job because the vetting hadn't come through
32:46
You cannot take a job until that vetting is completed. and I went to the second stage of vetting, which took months
32:55
So the question I want answering is, why did he appoint Mandelson before the vetting
33:03
and was there any pressure brought to bear on him? Yeah, we know he did, but why
33:11
Because everyone was setting a snake to catch a snake, weren't they
33:15
He was going to be the only man that could speak fluent Trump. No, not necessarily
33:19
Well, that's what we all said at the time. No, that's what right-wing papers said at the time
33:25
Oh, lots of left-wing papers said it was a stroke of genius as well. Well, there are only really left-wing papers
33:29
I mean, most people thought that it was a really clever thing to do because Mandelson is so slimy and he would be able to trump whisper
33:38
Yeah, that's what the papers say. I want to hear what Starmer said
33:42
Well, that will come out. That's a different, oddly enough. That's the investigation that was prompted by Mandelson's resignation
33:49
That's the one that gets sent to the committee, isn't it? All the papers pertaining to the appointment
33:56
and we'll find out whether there was. When you say pressure brought to bear, you mean did the White House let it be known
34:01
that they quite fancied having Mandelson in the embassy? I think the White House told him to get Mandelson in the embassy
34:07
because Mandelson knows far too much about the Epstein file. Whoa! I think that is the top and bottom of it, James
34:16
You may disagree, and we both have our opinions, but I really believe at that time, last summer
34:25
when all this was taking place, don't forget, we had an excellent ambassador already in place
34:31
We did, yes. It's a fixed term, though, isn't it? Is it a fixed term, being an ambassador
34:36
Was she not coming to the end of a fixed term? I could be wrong with that. Yeah, it's never been said she was at the end of her term
34:42
and so they appointed Mandelson. and that has never come into the conversation
34:48
So the conversation for me has to be around what happened last summer
34:52
He was bending over backwards to facilitate Trump, do whatever Trump wanted
34:59
I mean, he really was in Trump's pocket. In retrospect, to me, he was in Trump's pocket
35:06
And at the time, we all thought that, well, I say we all, obviously not everybody did
35:10
but the idea that you had to appease the monster in the White House was fairly received wisdom, wasn't it
35:16
I think, you know, you made me do something then. You made me go, whoa! Yeah, when you mentioned Epstein, didn't you notice
35:23
I went, whoa! Yes, you did. Kind of like a knee-jerk reaction
35:28
But Trump is so utterly depraved. So utterly, utterly depraved and well aware of exactly what his history of association with Epstein was
35:37
and almost certainly aware by now of exactly what he's accused of
35:41
in the papers that the rest of us haven't seen, that the idea of bringing one of Epstein's best mates
35:48
to Washington, D.C., actually, I don't think, deserves to get filed under conspiracy theory, Maria
35:55
So, with your permission, I'd like to withdraw my... Whoa! No, you haven't got my permission, Jane
36:03
Sorry. I want it back. Give it back. You can have another world, please. Okay
36:08
No, I'm not having another... Because, I mean, all of the reasons, everyone's got this extraordinary amnesia
36:13
about why they thought it was a good appointment in the first place. And the reason why they thought it was such a good appointment
36:18
in the first place was exactly the same reason why it was such a bad appointment
36:23
This is the thing that I find absolutely hypnotic. Why was it a good appointment
36:28
Ah, because he's dodgy and he's got, you know, he's got some very strange associations
36:32
and he's been extremely near over the years to all sorts of questionable characters and behaviours
36:39
why is it such a bad appointment? oh because he's dodgy and he's got all sorts of
36:43
associations over the years with all sorts of questionable cases, extraordinary in the moment to reflect
36:49
upon the fact that the reason why it was a good appointment when it was made
36:53
is exactly the same reason why it was such a bad appointment when it all
36:57
fell apart, but Maria's probably right to bring in some of those questions, some of those
37:01
possibilities, how much of that comes out later today well you're going to have to wait
37:07
It's 10.45, 11.12, carry four. Uh, three and a half, four and a half, four hours and forty-five minutes to find out
37:17
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10.48, you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
37:24
There are two elements to this I am intrigued by the personal animosity that Keir Starmer excites The people who really really dislike him And some of that down to social media
37:38
People out there who still think that he played some sort of role in Jimmy Savile's failed pursuit or failed prosecution
37:45
Not least because Boris Johnson lied about it in the House of Commons. But there's a visceral nature to some of the negativity felt towards Keir Starmer
37:53
who's always, for many of us, his greatest failing has been that there's a sort of vanilla tone to him
38:02
that he is quite innocuous, and you want someone with a little bit more oomph
38:06
So it's odd that those two positions can be held so widely and so strongly when they appear to be contradictory
38:12
But if you look at the human element of what has happened since this latest episode in the Mandelson scandal broke
38:19
you perhaps get an inkling of why some people who might be more sympathetic towards the Labour Party
38:24
have quite a depth of negativity towards Keir Starmer. He's not covered himself in glory
38:30
He's thrown Ollie Robbins under a bus, according to some of his civil service colleagues
38:36
He's sort of expressed fury and outrage, but just creating an idea that he's never actually responsible
38:43
for anything that happens. and he's in charge. What's the opposite of a control freak
38:48
Have we got a phrase for that? Is there such a thing as the opposite of a control freak
38:55
He seems to be the opposite of a control freak, doesn't he? He delegates everything
38:59
Everything is down to somebody else. Up to and including, it would seem, decision-making
39:04
There's some policies that seem to be at odds with everything he stood for as a younger man
39:08
and yet they're now part of his actual government. So I get that
39:13
I can understand why personal feelings towards him may be hardening, but in the context of this particular episode of this particular scandal
39:22
we're almost all agreed, Maria in Liverpool notwithstanding, that this is a bit of a storm in a teacup
39:27
which makes me wonder what happened to me on Friday. Boris is in Luxembourg, not that one
39:33
Boris, what would you like to say? Hi, James, thanks very much for taking the call
39:37
Good to hear from you. I just can't believe we're even talking about this
39:41
Really? It's such a nothing. Just pause there and then come back at me
39:47
The ambassador to the United States of America failed his developed vetting and got sent there anyway
39:57
Okay. Can we put this into perspective about what the Prime Minister has to appoint
40:01
Yes. Governmental ministers, 100 to 120 positions, including Cabinet ministers, about 25
40:08
Yes. Parliamentarian aides, dozens of the whips. public and quasi-governmental appointments he has to make
40:13
hundreds to the thousands, senior civil services, hundreds again that he has to appoint, honors and peerages
40:20
So we are now talking about the category of the senior civil service that he has to
40:24
which he doesn't even appoint directly because, as he's pointed out repeatedly
40:28
has to go through a process because of the independence of the civil service. So he has maybe failed in that one category of that one appointment
40:35
to an ambassador to the United States. How important is that role compared to all the other things that he has to do
40:43
And how long was he in power? It's pretty important. Compared to your cabinet ministers
40:49
Compared to the hundreds of thousands of other appointments he has to do? You're blowing my brains up
40:54
I can't decide whether you're being bonkers or brilliant. But, James, how long has this guy been in power for
41:00
From February till September. I mean, I'm looking at this and I'm saying
41:04
Well, if you want to blow up every single time the guy makes a mistake like this, you might as well actually blow up the person who makes the formal appointment, which is your monarch
41:15
So is King Charles III responsible and he should resign? If every single time you make a mistake with any of these appointments, you have a new prime minister, you've got to finish off with a government less stable than, I don't know, Banana Republic
41:30
I mean, worse than Italy for sure. I mean, if this is the best wicket that the right has to attack Obama..
41:36
Oh, you're making me feel even stupider than I did already. So this is, for you, this is donkey sanctuary territory
41:42
Absolutely nothing. Really? The guy made an appointment. The guy went there in February
41:49
And by September, they looked at this and I said, well, this is a terrible decision. We've got to revise it
41:53
So it's not even that the guy's still in power or that he's been there for years. It's like seven months
41:58
I just can't believe that we have a war going on in Iran. We've got a financial living crisis
42:04
We've got probably a huge recession coming up. We've got potholes, which are more important than this
42:08
And what are we talking about? A guy that isn't even in power anymore, that was fired by the government
42:14
I just don't get it. Why are you even talking about this? Why am I calling in to talk to you about this
42:19
I don't know. Why are you, Boris? What's wrong with you? Why are you talking about this old rubbish
42:25
Well, because on Friday, it felt like he could go. Speechless. Yeah, I can tell
42:33
If you have Starmer go for this, good luck. I mean, you go back to the governments in Italy in the 50s and 60s
42:39
which, you know, every year they had two or three governments. You know, you're going to finish off in a worse situation
42:43
Is that in the interest of Britain? I mean, seriously, the right has good arguments that they can put forward
42:50
and there are many things that are going wrong, and they should be focusing on this. to drag this old thing out with Mendelssohn from, when was it, February to September
42:59
It's just, focus on real things, you know? Do you know, I suspect that you're touching quite a lot of nerves out there
43:06
And a lot of people are... Well, I have a lot of calls in after that, trying to find something to take your standard with
43:12
But this is not it. Yes. I've got a feeling that you're right
43:17
And, I mean, my feeling was crystallising already, as I've explained all morning
43:21
but I don't think anyone's put it quite as powerfully as you have, Boris. Thank you
43:25
And that, of course, is embarrassing because it means that in attempts years ago
43:29
someone's put it very kindly. This is from Nadia. I was a bit annoyed with you on Friday, James
43:33
except you do turn yourself inside out trying to be fair. Yes, I do, but it doesn't mean I get it right
43:39
And I was probably unfair on Friday in the opposite way to the way that I was worried about
43:43
Nadia then goes on to critique various colleagues and how hard they try to be fair
43:49
but it would be undiplomatic of me to share any of that, except to say that Nick Abbott comes out rather well
43:55
Turn 54 is the time. Chris is in Maida Vale. Chris, what do you reckon? Hey, James. First of all, very quickly, I agree with everything the last caller said
44:03
Boris, yeah, I bet you do. But, and basically, being politically agnostic
44:10
secondly, I just want to sort of point out, with Financial Times, the front page of the FT was reporting this over the weekend
44:18
What we basically know is that Starmer said he didn't know. As a consequence of that, he dismissed Olly Robbins
44:25
What we know is that Olly Robbins will obviously give evidence this week and we'll learn more
44:29
But basically, sources, according to the FT, sources close to Olly Robbins
44:37
are basically saying he couldn't tell ministers about the results of the cheque
44:41
That's been challenged by some of my contributors who have gone through the developed vetting process
44:46
With respect, I'm more likely to believe... Hang on a minute. You more likely to believe unnamed sources speaking to journalists on the Financial Times than you are to believe named sources speaking to a journalist on LBC First of all the source in the FT is named as the
45:08
former chief executive of the National Cyber Security Centre, an individual called Kieran
45:14
Martin, and he is represented as to be a friend of Ollie Robbins. Now, his quote is most likely
45:23
the defence that Ollie Robbins is going to use. Go on. That's why it's relevant
45:27
And he specifically said, not only is there no duty to disclose the details of the vetting case
45:33
there is a duty not to disclose them. So, he's a friend of Ollie Robbins
45:39
and he is saying that, and that could be Ollie Robbins' line
45:43
That is probably going to be his defence. I mean, what it refers to is
45:47
the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act from 2010, the external bit of it
45:50
The Secretary of State, I'm quoting now, has the power to manage the diplomatic service
45:55
but they do not cover national security vetting. And so, I mean, they're talking about the foreign secretary there
46:03
and the law states he should be discreet with information gathered during vetting
46:09
I don't think it goes as far as to say he categorically
46:13
and cannot ever share information gathered during vetting. James, where I come from is that if Kieran Martin is basically sort of saying
46:26
well, he didn't have a duty to disclose, and that happens to be Olly Robbins' defence
46:34
Olly Robbins is sort of saying, you shouldn't have dismissed me because I didn't have a duty to disclose
46:39
Yeah, and I'm saying... And to get down that train of thought, it's basically vindicating Kirsten Armour's version of events
46:45
Yes, I think you're right. Except for, yeah, well, I guess it is vindicating Keir Starmer's version of events
46:50
The only thing it overlooks, and this would be a question for the personnel department, actually
46:55
in the event of Ollie Robbins appealing against his dismissal, he had no duty to tell the Prime Minister, but he was not forbidden from doing so
47:03
I think that is where this is going to... With respect, that's a different question
47:07
Precisely, with respect, that's why I'm pointing it out, because it is an interesting, different perspective
47:14
And then people who attack Keir Starmer go down a different route
47:19
If Olly Robbins didn't reveal that information, was Keir Starmer incompetent for not asking the question
47:28
And I think that's a ridiculous argument because there's something known as reporting by exception
47:35
You get, as someone in a senior role, you don't expect someone to sort of pitch up every day
47:40
and say, that's fine, that's fine, that's fine. all you want are problems being brought to your attention
47:46
So, for example, when you appeared at 10 o'clock on the radio
47:50
I bet you didn't go round asking everyone, you know, is that wire plugged in, is that wire plugged in, etc
47:56
You just assumed that if it wasn't, they would tell you. Keith, is that wire plugged in
48:01
Yeah, we're all good. It's all okay, Chris. Carry on. Everyone can hear you. But, yeah, so I did touch on this on Friday
48:08
Has there been a precedent for a Prime Minister being told that the appointment can go ahead or saying someone's passed their vetting
48:16
and the Prime Minister says, don't believe you, prove it. And that takes us back to Boris's point
48:21
There'd never be time to do anything else if you were asking to see everybody's homework all the time
48:27
And the real question might be, if it is the case that Ollie Robbins was not obliged
48:36
query, to actually disclose the failure of vetting to ministers, Why is that? Because it does sound as if it should be an important thing to disclose to ministers
48:48
You would think so, wouldn't you? This is, I think, where the earlier caller was curious to find out a lot more about what the precedent and what the practice is
48:56
I'll tell you what, under this reading, and probably where the whole conversation is going to end up
49:02
with Boris's insistence that we should never have had it in the first place, notwithstanding
49:05
it's going to be the sacking of ollie robbins that ends up looking the worst of all the jigsaw
49:11
pieces so far i agree completely we got there in the end thank you very much indeed chris i mean we
49:19
all got there in the end for something on which i i think you could probably hang your hat and that
49:24
is i don't know what word you prefer but that's what i was trying to reference when i talked about
49:28
personnel issues or the human element of it is it is it a peevishness on keir starmer's part is it
49:34
of petulant to just lash out and sack someone without going through all of the detail without
49:40
being the thing that he was supposed to be all the time which is loyally um and that i think is why
49:46
some people feel the scales falling from their eyes with regards to the prime minister on a
49:51
personal level as opposed perhaps to a a political one um speaking of scales falling from eyes i i
49:58
won't tell you who they are yet i'll tell you immediately after the news three very different
50:02
contributors all concluding that Donald Trump is mad. James O'Brien on LBC
50:08
It is four minutes after 11 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
50:14
Here's a very personal problem. I mean, it's very much a first world problem
50:18
but it's also something that I don't think many people are going to have been worrying about
50:24
If you have been contending for some time that Donald Trump is..
50:30
What language are you comfortable with? Listen, you know how to get in touch with the program
50:35
84850 is the text number, or you can WhatsApp me on 03456060973
50:40
If you just want to give me a bit of help with something without necessarily wanting your message to be read out
50:44
then do feel free, because I don't want to unintentionally cause offence
50:48
by using language that refers to mental fragility or mental collapse, because I use words like bonkers quite casually or madness
50:59
I don't know that there is anything to be particularly worried about or hypersensitive about here
51:04
But if you think there is, then do please make your case and I will respond accordingly
51:09
I have absolutely no problem with causing intentional offence. I want to make that absolutely clear
51:14
But I don't always enjoy causing unintentional... In fact, I very rarely enjoy causing unintentional offence
51:23
But what language have we used so far to describe Donald Trump
51:27
I think the day that we went all in on, I don't know why I'm talking like a member of the royal family and using we, the day I went all in on deranged liar, it wasn't that long ago
51:39
It's an extraordinary moment of liberation when you stop thinking that there's a master plan or you stop thinking that Donald Trump is moments away from restoring normality, restoring a semblance of decency
51:56
when you stop thinking that the bad behavior is an aberration and the status quo will be restored
52:04
It is a strange moment. And in many ways, despite having gone quite early on it
52:10
compared to other people in my profession, we still went quite late
52:15
You know, still thinking during the state visit, for example, well, maybe this will nudge him into a place where he stops being so mad
52:23
where he stops being so petulant petulant He stops being so unhinged He stops being so erratic He stops being so unpredictable Maybe cosying up to him at the state visit I think this was Keir Starmer calculation
52:35
will be enough to sort of shock him into decency. Do you see what I mean? Like a sort of electric
52:44
shock and you've got a deranged patient and you give them an electric shock and then lo and behold
52:49
they start behaving with a bit of decency again. So we went pretty early
52:55
And by we, I mean on this programme, because I'm including you in the ysis
53:01
And, I mean, remember that this was at a time when some people, like Dick Littlejohn in the Daily Mail
53:06
were writing about how they wished Donald Trump was the UK Prime Minister
53:10
and he'd never been more ashamed to be British than when Starmer refused to get involved in an illegal war
53:16
So, you know, there were plenty of people still in the media, still using phrases like Trump derangement syndrome
53:23
to describe those of us describing Trump's derangement. And there's something there for the PhD thesis writers of the future to look at
53:30
What on earth would possess someone commenting on current affairs to attack the people describing a mad president
53:37
instead of attacking the mad president? It's a conversation for another day
53:41
He's playing 4D snap, not 4D chess. That's rather nice. Except he's not, is he
53:47
Because that has rules as well. So, we went early on calling him deranged
53:55
on calling him mad. That's not a diagnosis. And even if it were
54:02
it's not one that I'm qualified to give. Over the course of the last few days
54:06
three men who are prominent contributors to public discourse in this country
54:13
Three men have all arrived at the same conclusion. And it is interesting because they are very, very different men
54:24
And they speak from very, very different positions. You have a crazy Brexiter, the wrongest man in the world, Daniel Hannan
54:34
You have one of the finest journalists this country has produced in the last 50 years
54:40
Alan Rusbridger, former editor of The Guardian and Prospect magazine. And you have one of my favourite columnists
54:46
despite the fact that he sometimes writes things that I balk at
54:52
Matthew Paris in The Times, a former Conservative MP from a wing of the Conservative Party that really
55:00
in its current guise, no longer exists. So three very, very different perspectives
55:06
Rusbridger, Paris, Hannan. The best editor of the last 50 years. My favourite columnist
55:13
and the wrongest man in the world. All three of them. These are the three headlines that have appeared in the last few days
55:20
Rosbridge are first. I was already worried about Trump's mental decline. It just got worse
55:26
Matthew Parrish in The Times. Trump is too deranged to continue in office
55:32
And then Daniel Hannan in The Washington Examiner. Donald Trump is losing his mind
55:37
so a consensus from three very very different corners of commentary that donald trump
55:46
is losing his mind or has lost his mind that donald trump is mad not that donald trump is
55:55
erratic or unpredictable or difficult to work with but he is actively mad as in there is no way
56:01
of imposing comprehension upon his conduct. It makes no sense. It is mad
56:09
Donald Trump has gone mad. Three very sober, well, two very sober voices
56:16
and one hat stand. Daniel Hatstand, the world's wrongest man. But, in the spirit of stopped clocks
56:23
even they are right twice a day. So, I told you a while ago, didn't I
56:31
that if I ever announced on the radio that I was thinking of writing another book you had to take me out and shoot me
56:36
I'd like to withdraw that if I may because I am now thinking of writing another book
56:42
and part of the reason for it is the damage that's been done to our country by outsiders
56:46
I really came into sharp focus this idea when I was looking at the full extent
56:52
of Viktor Orban's attempt to influence public conversation to influence politics in this country
56:57
and the United States of America. So sometimes when I'm in book mode
57:02
and I may not write it, I don't know yet, but I'm certainly thinking about it
57:06
When you're in book mode, you just spot things. Like moments. I like to open a chapter with a date
57:12
I like to pick a moment and then work back from it. And last week, you had the Secretary of State for War
57:19
claiming to quote the Bible when he actually quoted words from the Quentin Tarantino film Pulp Fiction
57:28
You had the Secretary of State for Health revealing, I don't think this needs a trigger warning unless you're a raccoon
57:35
but he once cut off a raccoon's penis and took it home so that he could study it later
57:40
That's a sort of roadkill raccoon. And there was a third element of this triangle
57:45
I made a note of it at the time because this could be an opening to a chapter
57:49
a moment when the planets aligned in such a way. Who would the other one have been? What else has happened this week
57:54
So that's Hegseth, Kennedy, and it'll come to me in about four minutes' time
58:00
because there was something else that happened that just pointed to a scenario
58:04
to a world that is beyond all recognition. I mean, it is literally beyond all ysis
58:16
beyond all precedent. Kash Patel, the reports about the head of the FBI
58:22
The FBI that emerged towards the end of last week that were absolutely mind-boggling
58:27
about him being paranoid and allegedly being drunk in office and chasing demons and butterflies
58:34
metaphorically speaking, all around the place. So three of the most powerful men in the United States of America
58:40
One of them encountered a dead raccoon, got out of the car, cut its penis off and took it home
58:46
One of them likes to give sermons and claim that the US military acts according to God's will
58:53
which of course makes him a religious extremist of exactly the type that we are encouraged to detest in Iran
59:00
claims to be quoting the Bible when he actually quotes Samuel L. Jackson from Pulp Fiction
59:06
And one of them is, according to reports, I think in the Washington Post
59:13
off his nut. and they've all been put in position by Donald Trump
59:19
before he was widely regarded to be mad. Then you turn your attention to Trump
59:25
and, I mean, what would you even pick as evidence of escalation
59:30
Because we have sat here now for a long time pointing out how hard it is to keep up
59:36
but something changed last week in that a new dimension emerged where it wasn't being overcome and subsumed by the next big announcement
59:47
For me, the Jesus picture, that was a moment of almost unbelievable madness
59:56
I'm going to post a picture of myself portrayed... as Jesus. The message that he posted about Iran
1:00:05
using foul language and praising Allah, that seemed to me to be marks of a level of madness
1:00:14
not previously reached by Donald Trump. And then he turned upon his former cheerleaders
1:00:21
Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, Candace Owens and Alex Jones, calling them in capital letters
1:00:25
nut jobs and losers with low IQ. It was in The Atlantic, that reporting about Kash Patel, the head of the FBI, and he revealed on Sunday he's going to sue them for defamation after the magazine published a story about his alleged drinking habits that he told Fox News yesterday will come today
1:00:48
Vehemently denies the allegations. We shall see. but those are the three things that happened over the course of the last three days that just
1:00:57
highlighted what Donald Trump has around him or who Donald Trump has around him what he himself
1:01:05
has done is well extraordinary even by his standards the Jesus image the extraordinarily
1:01:14
foul-mouthed attack upon Iran. And, I mean, never mind the usual stuff
1:01:23
the to-ing and fro-ing about whether this... And the attack on the Pope, that was the thing. So, these are the reasons why
1:01:30
Daniel Hanan, Matthew Parrish and Alan Rusbridger have all gone there. And it's a place they've gone to that even six months ago
1:01:39
I always felt a little bit uncomfortable about it. Not because of the mental health element
1:01:46
not because of being insensitive about mental health in general, but just because it felt, I don't know
1:01:53
it felt too big to do it. You can't accuse the president of being insane
1:01:57
You can't accuse the president of the United States of America of being mad. So about six months ago it felt too big
1:02:03
At the time, of course, the worst commentators in the world were describing people telling the truth
1:02:10
as having Trump derangement syndrome. I wonder if there was some projection there
1:02:14
Do you think maybe they could smell the madness in the wind, but they'd staked so much on Donald Trump
1:02:20
because they loved the racism so much and the misogyny, the sexism and the climate change denial
1:02:26
Do you think that kind of commentator just kind of knew things were going
1:02:32
I can't believe I've staked everything on him. He's mad. I know what I'll do
1:02:37
I'll accuse all the people calling him mad of being mad. Do you think there's a little bit of that going on
1:02:43
I don't know. I mean, I've heard people accuse... I've heard people accuse critics of Donald Trump
1:02:49
of loving the Ayatollahs in Iran, as if you can't hold two thoughts in your head at the same time
1:02:54
So if you kind of... If you bet the lot, if you staked your entire reputation
1:02:59
such as it is, on Donald Trump being a good guy, because you love the racism, you love the sexism
1:03:03
and you love the climate change, then I'll drill, baby, drill. then when you begin to fear that he is actually mad he is all of the things that his critics
1:03:11
have been saying for ages then you have little choice but to accuse his critics of being mad
1:03:17
there is isn't there that's it it's dropped the penny that's what happened isn't it because it's
1:03:22
such a strange phrase to use trump derangement syndrome it happened with brexit of course
1:03:26
you back brexit so strongly that when the evidence emerges that all of the people condemning it were
1:03:34
right, you have to attack them. You can't argue with them anymore. You can't have a
1:03:38
debate anymore, so you have to attack them. You have to question their mental
1:03:42
health. Here are people calling Donald Trump mad. Oh my god, I think
1:03:46
they're right. No, no, you're mad. You're the mad one. You've got Trump derangement
1:03:50
syndrome, and you love the Ayatollahs. That is a sort of mental somersault, so violent
1:03:56
that it's extraordinary that these people can lie straight in bed. But that, I think
1:04:00
is what happened. Maybe they got there a bit earlier than the rest of us. We're too busy
1:04:04
being all liberal and concerned about feelings and good conduct. I'm not actually going to call
1:04:10
him mad. He looks a bit mad, but I can't actually say that he's gone mad. Whereas the people that
1:04:16
loved him, because of the racism, the misogyny and the climate change, they're beginning to
1:04:20
recognise that he's gone mad. So they have to write a newspaper column saying, I wish he was
1:04:24
my leader and you're all mad, you people suggesting that he might be mad. I don't know, I'm thinking
1:04:30
out loud. Every accusation is a confession is a phrase that springs to mind
1:04:34
It's a weird phrase to use, Trump derangement syndrome. As if describing
1:04:40
a deranged man is a sign itself of deranged... Anyway, I don't know
1:04:49
The insanity of the most powerful political leader in the world posting an AI image
1:04:54
of himself dressed up as the son of God healing the sick is impossible
1:04:58
to convey. We probably didn't feel it land as heavily as it
1:05:02
would do, as it should do, because it comes on the back of so many other transgressions
1:05:08
and so many other aberrations. But simply put, I'm going to read that again. This is from Alan Rusbridge's piece
1:05:16
The most powerful political leader in the world posted an AI image
1:05:20
of himself dressed up as the son of God healing the sick. And then lied about it subsequently
1:05:27
But it's the moment of pressing send. It's the moment of seeing it. And that is, I mean
1:05:33
grounds for an intervention. Rosbridge goes on, in most places the HR department would be
1:05:38
looking at a twin-track policy of support and protection. A leader who behaved so aberrantly
1:05:44
that it became routine for observers to suggest that they had lost their marbles
1:05:49
I mean, it's there. And then you have the attack on the actual Pope
1:05:55
And then you have that extraordinary succession of announcements on social media
1:06:02
that, in any other circumstances, would probably have prompted an intervention. Memes, news clips
1:06:09
This is quite good. He is not sleeping, he's pretending to be Jesus
1:06:16
and he's posting all night. He's not well. So what's happened this week
1:06:26
and just in the last week, is it? We're talking about a week, the last ten days, that makes you think that the President of the United States of America
1:06:32
has lost his mind. What is the collection of behaviours, circumstances, observations
1:06:38
For the first time, it feels to me that the flooding of the zone
1:06:43
the constant avalanche of awfulness, has somehow failed. We are not sitting here thinking, oh, here he goes again
1:06:51
We're sitting here thinking something even worse than what went before has happened
1:06:58
I give you the attack on the Pope. I give you the pretending to be Jesus
1:07:04
I give you the incredible post about Iran, calling them, well, you read it, using the F word
1:07:11
the attacks upon his former allies. What makes you conclude? What is it that's happened
1:07:17
That's the point. So, questioning his grasp on reality, questioning his sanity six months ago to today where everybody paying attention thinks that he bonkers What changed What do you point at Well actually no I afraid I making a presumption
1:07:37
here. Do you agree that the President of the United States of America has lost his mind
1:07:43
I mean, you could, of course, quite rightly point out he didn't have much of a mind to begin with
1:07:48
but there was a sort of diabolical genius to his conduct in some ways. Now, it's just diabolical
1:07:54
Do you agree that the President of the United States has lost his mind
1:07:58
You can, of course, disagree with that. I might quite enjoy hearing from you
1:08:03
03456060973. And if you agree, if you think that he has lost his mind
1:08:09
what's your proof? But what do you use as your whetstone to sharpen that conclusion
1:08:16
So there it is. Has he lost his mind? 03456060973. And what's your evidence
1:08:22
Hit the numbers now. you will get through. James O'Brien on LBC
1:08:26
Sort of a why now question as well, isn't it? It's why now
1:08:30
What is it that's happened now? Because there are loads of things you can point out from six months ago, even six years ago
1:08:35
that speak to a depravity, a moral bankruptcy, a hideousness. I think the Jesus thing is really interesting
1:08:42
because it's going to alienate traditional supporters. I mean, it's going to alienate Christians
1:08:48
albeit some of them are going to, I mean, are not really Christians worthy of the name if they support Donald Trump
1:08:54
It's very hard to see how you square the message of the Bible, particularly the New Testament, with the behavior of Donald Trump
1:08:59
But hey, we are not here to examine that question. We're here to examine Trump's mental state
1:09:06
and wonder why in the last few days, people who might previously have been a little wary
1:09:13
of reaching for words like deranged or for phrases like losing his mind
1:09:20
And Daniel Hannan not long ago was writing about how brilliant Donald Trump was going to be for Britain
1:09:24
and indeed for Brexit, and now he's writing under the headline, Donald Trump is losing his mind
1:09:29
Matthew Parris in The Times and Alan Rusbridger in Prospect. All, not just speculating, but concluding that Donald Trump has gone, to coin a phrase, bonkers
1:09:40
He is too deranged to continue in office. Why now? Given that there's such a long history of disgusting behaviour and extraordinary conduct
1:09:49
What is it about the last week that has crystallised the thought in your mind that Trump has lost the plot
1:09:57
And do we know enough about American politics to conclude or to wonder what might happen next
1:10:02
It's a Simon Marks moment, really, isn't it? I think J.D. Vance would have to set the ball rolling, wouldn't he
1:10:10
He'd have to set the process in motion. but what is it that has made everybody come round
1:10:16
to be a bit self-referential for a moment to what we've been saying for ages
1:10:20
that Donald Trump is bonkers? James is in Dundee. James, what do you reckon
1:10:25
Hello, James. Hello, man. Love your show. First time caller. Welcome. James, I'd go all the way back to when he started posting
1:10:33
as the Obamas as animals and in the shelf as an animal. The fact that that was unchecked
1:10:39
The Lion King, wasn't it? Exactly. And obviously, you know, a bit questionable posting the Obamas as monkeys
1:10:46
That's highly inappropriate. Well, I mean, obviously it is. Crikey. I don't want anyone to think I'm about to start arguing again
1:10:51
But if we accept, and I do absolutely 100% accept, that Trump's appeal lies in his racism, his misogyny
1:11:01
and his climate change denial, that's the sort of holy trinity of things that people really like
1:11:06
whatever they may be prepared to publicly admit to, then you're not going to alienate anybody
1:11:11
you're not going to alienate anybody by doing a racism are you no no james but i think when we
1:11:17
start questioning his sanity more recently as you've mentioned it's the time it's a time the
1:11:22
timings he's posting and the fact that the so-called leader of the free world has unvetted
1:11:27
access to social media he's sitting up in bed posting schoolboy memes and and swearing
1:11:33
swearing at the iranian nation threatening to destroy their civilization if those aren't alarm bells and i don't know what's our james no i i agree so it's almost as if
1:11:45
it's everything that has gone before dialed up the volume has been turned up and and the attempts
1:11:51
to excuse or explain it become ever harder to the point where they become pretty close to pointless
1:11:58
he has lost the plot now he's looked like a man losing the plot for for the longest time but he
1:12:02
now looks like a man who's lost the plot yes and james please i'm by no means an expert or a
1:12:08
politician but it seems like in his first term he was he was held far more to account whereas now
1:12:15
he's got a marco rubio a jd vance a peak texas so this is chicken and egg this is chicken and
1:12:22
egg i think you make a brilliant point is that that narcissism goes on untrammeled and also he
1:12:27
did win i i this is an important point and what does that do to your ego you've already got an
1:12:32
overdeveloped ego or a weird ego and then you win and people start treating you like you're jesus
1:12:37
not just on social media but in the flipping oval office you know laying their hand maybe he started
1:12:42
believing the hype around him and it's finally tipped him over the edge it's like the last bit
1:12:47
of the jigsaw is is the sycophancy how bizarre oh that's the second big insight of the day peter
1:12:53
mandelson the reason why he was a brilliant appointment is exactly the same reason why he
1:12:58
was an appalling appointment and the final straw on the camel's back of donald trump's fantasy
1:13:05
is actually the sycophancy that he's surrounded himself with that's what broke his brain the final
1:13:11
thing was the thing that he thought would protect him i don't know it's thinking out loud nice work
1:13:15
it's coming up to half past 11 you're listening to james o'brien on lbc imagine writes the world's
1:13:21
wrongest man, Daniel Hanan, it was someone other than President Donald Trump. Suppose a different
1:13:26
leader were posting deranged rants in the small hours, insulting the spiritual leader of 1.3
1:13:32
billion Catholics, threatening entire civilizations with annihilation and comparing himself to God
1:13:39
What would be the reaction? That's not a rhetorical question. I want you to think about that as we head
1:13:45
towards the headlines. If it was any other world leader posting deranged rants in the small hours
1:13:52
in which he insults the Pope, the spiritual leader of 1.3 billion Catholics, he threatens
1:13:57
entire civilizations with annihilation while swearing and conducting himself like a saloon
1:14:04
bar drunk, and compares himself to God before lying about it, what would the reaction be
1:14:11
I don't even know where to begin pondering the question of what the world would do if Joe Biden had behaved like this
1:14:19
But you don't need to. Half past 11 is the time. Dominic Ellis has your headlines
1:14:24
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 33 minutes after 11 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:14:33
I wonder whether it rings any bells for you. Do you look at Donald Trump and recognise his conduct
1:14:40
whether it is a sort of narcissistic disorder, running out of control, whether there is perhaps
1:14:46
a echoes of dementia kicking in, a combination of both. I don't know. I just wonder what
1:14:52
has changed this week that has seen a sort of broadening consensus that the President of the United States of America has lost his mind What would you point to
1:15:06
And it might not be immediately obvious. Here are some suggestions before we get back to the phones
1:15:10
Nathan writes, he's reached epic levels of ego and power. He's always been like this
1:15:15
Just look at the comments he's been making for decades. It's not madness, it's just him, which is arguably scarier
1:15:21
I disagree. I think something's happened in the last week. I think it could be what you identify, actually
1:15:27
There's something about the idea, if you're in a laboratory, and you've got a test tube that contains absolute power
1:15:37
You know that phrase, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. And he has created an environment of absolute power
1:15:45
I don't know how much you can stomach of the Oval Office or the public meetings
1:15:51
where they all sit around telling him he's amazing. It's like something that you would associate with Caligula
1:15:58
or a particularly toxic Roman emperor. You all sit around. They all sit around telling him that he's amazing
1:16:07
Truly amazing. Not just like telling him, hey, you're pretty good. You're a pretty good president. But they say you are probably the finest human being that's ever lived
1:16:15
You should leave your body to medical science because you are physically extraordinary
1:16:19
I mean, they're just poor. this utter bilge into both of his ears all the time
1:16:24
and it has done something to him? Is it the sycophancy he created
1:16:30
in order to insulate himself from criticism that has tipped him over the edge
1:16:34
Or is it something else? This is from Jim. The joke with the Japanese Prime Minister
1:16:39
shows that he has lost all perspective and any comprehension of right and wrong
1:16:45
That was an extraordinary moment, but, yeah, maybe it was actually a sign
1:16:50
that he'd just lost that. So he'd behave outrageously, but always within some parameters
1:16:57
God, he's so shocking. He's so shocking, but I love him. And then he does some, so, you know
1:17:03
you're not going to get offended on the part of the Japanese people if you're a big Donald Trump fan
1:17:07
But then he went after the Pope and pretended he was Jesus
1:17:12
He's lost the parameters, the parameters that used to, used to marshal his madness, or his depravity at least
1:17:21
appear to have disappeared, don't they, in the last few days. Mark goes down the dementia route
1:17:25
I don't think he has lost his mind, James. This is the sign of dementia
1:17:30
Sundowning dementia is what we're watching. My wife is a nurse and this is what she sees daily
1:17:35
This is what a deteriorating dementia patient sounds like. In which case, of course, we are bound to show more sympathy towards him during his decline than he has ever shown towards anybody, up to and including people who have died
1:17:51
After which, of course, he's announced himself delighted to see them go. Good morning, James writes, Lee, the evidence for the mango Mussolini losing or having lost his mind has been building for a while
1:18:02
don't forget the AI video he posted of himself defecating or dropping feces
1:18:08
on the No Kings protesters again this is the thing that I'm taking away so far
1:18:14
all of this is horrible behaviour but you can see the base lapping it up
1:18:18
the racism, the misogyny, the climate change denial it's always one, two or three of those things
1:18:24
that excuse every single thing he does but this shows he's lost his ability
1:18:30
to know where that line is. He's attacking the Pope. He's lost his ability to know where that line is
1:18:38
And what's that about? Is that sundowning dementia? I don't know enough to answer the question
1:18:44
Gay's in Bath. Gay, what do you think? Well, I wish he'd read the book
1:18:48
if somebody's written it, How to Bluff Your Way as to Being a President
1:18:52
because if somebody has written it, he probably stopped after the first chapter
1:18:56
where it says you can just be as bossy and shy to everybody. But that's not mad
1:19:00
That's not lost mind. That's not derangement. We're looking at something different this week
1:19:04
I think he's just plain evil now. And I don't know if you saw
1:19:09
my attention was drawn to one of his latest tweets or whatever, X posts
1:19:15
which was when he was playing Frank Sinatra and My Way. And you think, my God, yeah
1:19:21
So Hitler killed himself in the end. And you think, but, you know, regrets
1:19:26
I've had a few. But then again, too few to mention, And is it an awareness he has of his decline that he only sees one way out, like Jonestown
1:19:38
You know? Well, yeah, I mean, I think you've leapt a bit
1:19:43
You've reached a bit there. I haven't seen the clip that you refer to. But the idea that his conduct in the last week has reached parts that previous conduct had not reached
1:19:54
Well, also, he's almost getting a bit of a high on it because he's not been asleep at meetings
1:19:58
Because he's out there, isn't he? Sitting up in the middle of the night, posting the weirdest things now on social media
1:20:05
also lying through his teeth. In a way, he's always done that, but that's moved up a notch
1:20:11
claiming that the Pope thinks it's OK for Iran to have a nuclear weapon
1:20:15
That's up there with accusing somebody, criticising Donald Trump of somehow being a fan of the Ayatollah
1:20:21
It's a level of derangement that is almost impossible to believe unless you've actually heard it
1:20:27
You could find out the Pope's position on nuclear weapons in about one second flat
1:20:32
He doesn't think anyone should have them, but to claim that he thinks it's okay for Iran to have one
1:20:36
is what happens, I suppose, if you're sitting up in bed at three o'clock in the morning
1:20:40
The Pope is weak on crime. He hasn't committed any, as far as I'm aware, unlike the President
1:20:46
And then you come to the fact that he went to watch an ultimate fighting championship pay-per-view fight
1:20:51
while his Vice President was trying to negotiate an end to the Iran War
1:20:55
along with his golfing buddy Steve Witkoff and his witless son-in-law Jared Kushner
1:21:00
I guess the thing I'm worrying about now or the thing I'm wondering now, thank you, Gay
1:21:05
is are we watching a culmination or a collapse? Is it simply that all of the guardrails
1:21:11
are now being removed? There's nobody there who can even say to him, I don't think you should go to the
1:21:17
ultimate fighting championship pay-per-view while JD is in Pakistan trying to negotiate peace with the Iranian
1:21:26
I just don't think he should go. There's nobody in the room who can even do that now
1:21:31
There's nobody, I mean, literally, if he had his flies undone, no one would tell him
1:21:35
He's in that kind of space. So is it a culmination or a collapse that we're seeing
1:21:39
Has he always been like this? But the guardrails of his own consciousness
1:21:44
and people around him putting limits on what he can and can't do
1:21:49
have been completely removed. So we are seeing an inevitable consequence of the ecosystem he's created
1:21:56
an ecosystem of denial, dishonesty, flattery and sycophancy. There you go, there's your question
1:22:02
Only took me 40 minutes to get there. Collapse or culmination? Geraint is in Chester. Geraint, what do you reckon
1:22:09
Probably culmination. I mean, he's in his 80s now, so he's getting on a bit
1:22:14
and he's always been like this, like when he used to boast that he could shoot someone
1:22:18
and people would still vote for him. Yeah, but that was true. That wasn't mad. That was actually, that's why I use the phrase
1:22:24
um a diabolical genius And also Mick Jagger is in his eighties So it not simply by dim to being in your 80s you don become all the things that Donald Trump is becoming or has become
1:22:35
Something has changed in the last week and I'm trying to pin down what it is
1:22:39
I think, well, I think in relation to the actual people that you've quoted or the journalists you've quoted
1:22:46
is that, to be frank, I'm going to be cynical here and say that because he was trying to mock
1:22:52
trying to be funny with clever with with the pope well his his base is very christian hardcore
1:22:58
christian yes and so they realized which way the wind is blowing with their audience uh and so that's
1:23:05
why they're now coming out with all this because i mean it was the same over here with like guys
1:23:09
like farage with the iran war where he was like pro-war then he realized that his base um were
1:23:15
like no we're not pro-iran war so suddenly he's like flip-flopping it's uh no you i mean in the
1:23:21
case of Farage, you're definitely right. And if a, and I use the word very loosely, but if a
1:23:25
journalist like Richard Littlejohn were to suddenly start questioning Donald Trump's sanity in a
1:23:30
newspaper column, it absolutely would be out of cowardice, querulousness, dishonesty and cowardice
1:23:37
But these three, I chose them quite carefully. I mean, Hannan is mad, but even a stop clock is
1:23:42
right twice a day. He's not doing this because he's worried about repercussions. And Rusbridger
1:23:47
and Matthew Parris are two of the most reliable thinkers in the British media
1:23:51
They do not toe lines, because they manage to upset different bunches of people
1:23:56
depending on what they're writing about. So that's why I was struck. Your observation holds true for an awful lot of people
1:24:02
who do what they do for a living, but not actually for these three
1:24:05
That's why I found it so interesting. That's why I found the juxtaposition so interesting
1:24:10
that they all arrived at the same conclusion at more or less the same time, because it speaks not to calculations on their part
1:24:15
but to observations. something in the last week has changed and it's best expressed through events
1:24:22
the attack upon the Pope the comparison of himself to Jesus and the extraordinary posts
1:24:27
praising Allah while threatening to destroy the Iranian civilization something snapped I want to know what it is
1:24:34
and I want to know whether it's a culmination or a collapse
1:24:37
thank you, Garen Andre's in Cambridge Andre, what do you reckon? Right, I wanted to present you with a new theory
1:24:45
something that i've had as a theory for a while so my theory is that trump's not mad at all right
1:24:52
i think that could you imagine a scenario theoretical scenario where he bought the guys
1:24:58
from cambridge ytica that helped him in his first campaign into the cia and then he gave them
1:25:05
all the resources of anthropic etc and he's actually using their tactics to grow his base
1:25:13
But he's hemorrhaging support at the moment. He's not growing his base
1:25:18
It certainly appears like that because he's getting desperate and he's making a few mistakes
1:25:23
But I still think that there's some... No, this is an ysis of the last week
1:25:29
It's not an ysis of the bigger picture or the theory that you think underpins it all
1:25:35
In the last week, something has snapped. Yeah, something has snapped. I think that perhaps he's taken advice
1:25:42
and it hasn't worked out, and he's getting a bit desperate, for sure. He's not taking advice from anyone. That's the point
1:25:48
It looks like his administration around him, but I'm sure there's other forces behind this
1:25:54
He's game. I mean, he's crazy. There's no two ways about it
1:25:58
but I think there's more to it than what we can say
1:26:02
Yeah, I mean, I think you're still where I was a few months ago
1:26:05
and thinking that there must be more to this than meets the eye. I had the same problem with Dominic Cummings
1:26:10
He can't be as awful as he seems to be. There must be some conversations going on behind closed doors that mitigate the apparent awfulness of this man
1:26:17
And then the Barnard Castle thing happened and you realise, no, he is just awful. He is just awful
1:26:22
And the same with Donald Trump. I don't think he's a puppet anymore. I mean, there's the Project 2025 stuff, of course
1:26:27
And the attempts to portray Britain in particular and Europe in general as basket cases where there's no freedom of speech
1:26:35
and everyone's been locked up in their own homes because they're terrified of Muslims or whatever the lies are this week
1:26:41
I get all of that and I understand the basis for it in terms of propaganda and whipping up the base, terrorizing your own base into acquiescence
1:26:49
But this week is different. I mean, if you had a truth serum or a lie detector and you asked him where he thinks he sits in relation to Jesus, what do you think he'd say without the alarm going off
1:27:06
Do you think you are as important as Jesus? Do you think, you know, do you think you are
1:27:12
What do you think he'd say? That is not sane. John Lennon was joking when he said that the Beatles were bigger than Jesus
1:27:19
And that was an international story of incredible proportions. And he was a singer
1:27:26
He was a singer-songwriter. He was a Beatle. And he compared himself to Jesus, or claimed he was bigger than Jesus
1:27:32
And the world went absolutely mad. The President of the United States of America did it
1:27:38
I don't think there's anybody giving him advice but I wonder whether or not you
1:27:44
hear any bells ringing in the back of your brain that this is something that you have seen on a smaller scale
1:27:50
much, much closer to home in which case you know the number 11.46 is the time
1:27:56
James O'Brien on LBC It's the first time I've thought that it may prompt some sort of intervention
1:28:03
but there's nobody around him who seems likely or minded to lead it
1:28:08
I think it was the Washington Post that reported this weekend on efforts to keep him out of the room
1:28:14
when they were discussing the rescue of that downed US airman because of his, to put it politely
1:28:21
because he's so erratic and unreliable, but the military top brass wanted to keep him out of the room
1:28:25
where they were discussing it. And in order to show him that the war is going well
1:28:30
they just show him pictures of things blowing up. it's as if they're managing him in one way but not in another
1:28:36
it's as if it's as if you have a toddler who is actually in charge
1:28:41
do you see what i mean so if you've got a toddler that is prone to tantrums
1:28:46
then appeasement or mollifying or letting him live on spangles or haribo or whatever it may be
1:28:53
means you have an easier life but the toddler is actually in charge
1:28:58
it's not just the question of keeping the tantrums to a minimum the toddler is in charge
1:29:07
the toddler can fire you the toddler can appoint the secretary of state for war
1:29:12
so you can manage the tantrum up to a point you can manage the personality defects up to a point
1:29:21
you can think that bending the knee sycophancy giving him presence it is it's a toddler isn't
1:29:27
it but with the uh with the big big difference that you're not just trying to avoid tantrums that's the only bit you can control let's give him some presents let's give him a peace prize
1:29:35
let's um let's let's compare him to jesus let's just keep him sweet because we're worried about
1:29:42
what he will do when he's not sweet but you know he's not going to be sweet all the time
1:29:46
and that's why the worst stuff now is happening in the middle of the night
1:29:50
ah it's happening in the middle of the night because there's nobody there giving him presents
1:29:55
so he's sitting all on his own because Melania doesn't go anywhere in there
1:30:00
and frankly, who can blame her? But he's sitting all on his own in the middle of the night with his phone
1:30:05
doesn't have the look of a man who's getting much REM sleep, and there's nobody in his bedroom saying
1:30:11
oh, have another prize, or, oh, you're the best. So you keep him sweet as long as you keep him amped up on Haribo
1:30:20
and Haribo takes many forms. It can be the FIFA Peace Prize
1:30:24
it could be the agreeing with his lies about stopping wars or being incredible being a very
1:30:32
stable gene you're the best you're the greatest and he posts that of course when he needs even more
1:30:36
adulation and vindication he'll post i'm the best i'm the greatest everybody says so
1:30:42
and no one can be bothered really to disagree with him i doubt he reads replies and then he
1:30:47
surrounds himself with people who keep telling him he's incredible he's amazing you're the best
1:30:51
hook your lees, hook your lees but in the middle of the night anybody else get a little bit of Billy Joel there
1:30:57
at that point in the middle of the night when he's all on his own
1:31:03
and there's nobody there giving him a biscuit or telling him he's great
1:31:07
or inventing a peace prize or giving him some baubles or a medal or a present
1:31:13
or a big kind of plaudit that's when the truth that's when the real him comes
1:31:19
that's when the stuff they're trying to keep under wraps comes kicking and screaming to the surface
1:31:23
and he attacks the Pope and he compares himself to Jesus and he accuses and he threatens to destroy
1:31:29
the entire civilisation of Iran. That's it, isn't it? That's the middle of the night
1:31:37
So, is it a collapse or a culmination? Felicity's in Sidmouth. Felicity, what would you like to say
1:31:42
Hi there, James. I'd like to say that, I mean, whether he's mad or not
1:31:47
I think he is personally, but I can't prove that. but it's the fact that he's cornered now
1:31:52
I mean, everything he said that he would do, like in and out, quick war, get the oil back
1:31:58
the economy would be great. Everything's going the opposite direction and people are really starting to feel it
1:32:03
and even he can't be hidden from that anymore. You think? Because, I mean, he's been getting away with that forever
1:32:12
You know, two weeks. Two weeks, we'll fix it in two weeks
1:32:16
And then, you know, ten weeks later, nothing's happened. and we've won this, we've won that, the strait is up
1:32:21
And his entire presidency, his entire life has been typified by deceit and distraction
1:32:28
Why is it different now? Because the war is on a whole different level
1:32:32
Yes, because he always believed, he was probably told by the people around him
1:32:37
because they're all sycophants, that it would be a quick one, and they would win
1:32:41
and Iran would buckle, and of course that's not happened. I don't think he was, actually
1:32:45
I think he was told about the strait of hormones, but he just thought he'd be able to style it out? Yeah, because he had a few friends around
1:32:50
There's a Gary Larson cartoon. Do you know The Far Side? Do you know those cartoons, The Far Side
1:32:55
I think so. Go ahead. There's one from 40 years ago that cites the Strait of Hormuz
1:33:00
I know there were difficulties in the Strait of Hormuz 40 years ago, but there's a Gary Larson cartoon that says
1:33:06
the love boat has accidentally made its way into the Strait of Hormuz. So everybody knew that this would be in the arsenal of the Iranian regime
1:33:15
except he just thought that it would all be done and dusted in the same way that Venezuela was
1:33:19
And there's nobody in the room to tell him not true. Exactly, because he believes in the American might
1:33:25
and that, you know, they've got the better planes, they've got more money, and they think that he thought that was enough alone
1:33:30
and of course it's not. Yeah, I mean, we're getting chicken and egg, aren't we, here
1:33:36
We don't know whether something particular has happened that explains the latest aberrations
1:33:41
or whether it is almost a step-by-step process by which the worst thing you can do
1:33:48
if you're Donald Trump is surround yourself with sycophants because it will tip you over the edge
1:33:54
And that is why the worst stuff is happening when he's in bed on his own
1:33:58
and the sycophants aren't there to keep him under control. Kudos to David, who may have been the only person
1:34:04
to spot my Nutty Professor reference a moment ago. Hercules, Hercules, did James just quote the Nutty Professor
1:34:09
when discussing the president? um indeed he did david and as you say that makes sense actually and on a more serious note this
1:34:16
from s we need a discussion on dementia james my dad used to hand deliver political leaflets in his
1:34:21
80s and believed he would become prime minister trump is now a medical discussion um yeah but
1:34:28
why why now and not five years ago when he was telling us to drink bleach or that light could
1:34:34
cure covid do you see what i mean there's something's changed i'm not quite sure what
1:34:38
it is felicity thank you tom's in glasgow tom what would you like to say james well i've wanted to
1:34:44
have a chat with you for a while on various different topics but it was donald trump that finally pushed me over the edge so you and me both so there's a few different things i hope i
1:34:52
can keep my train of thought for these i think first of all the whole topic of discussing whether
1:34:57
or not donald trump is mad is a fun thought experiment to do but we don't have the clinical
1:35:03
information and we're not going to have it to be able to actually say if he is mad or not i think
1:35:08
the conversation in the top the comments from certain people talking about signs of dementia
1:35:13
is something that's interesting to look into but i think my view would tend towards being that this
1:35:20
is a culmination and um i also think as well in a way the question of his mental health and the fact
1:35:26
that he essentially blocks anybody from getting information about the state of his health you know
1:35:31
or he gets some shonky health report done. I love that one. His health is unbelievably amazing
1:35:37
But, you know, I think you can fit all of that in a way to everything else to do with misconduct
1:35:43
whether it's taxes, whether it's finances in general, whether it's hiding or destroying information
1:35:48
whether it's sexual misconduct. He will always do, it seems, whatever he can
1:35:51
to block that information getting out. That doesn't prove that he has mental health problems
1:35:56
but it fits within this pattern of behavior that he's constantly trying to block everything
1:36:00
from getting out. And so, yeah, I actually, in line with what one of your recent callers said
1:36:06
and I've been thinking this for a while, I feel more confident in saying
1:36:10
that I think that Donald Trump is evil than I do in saying that he's mad
1:36:14
Yeah, I just said that six months ago, but it feels to me like something's shifted
1:36:18
in the last week. Well, I think the level of pressure has ramped up
1:36:23
But again, I go back to what I said at the start, I don't think we are qualified to be able to say he is mad
1:36:27
No, of course we're not, but we are. We are, but we're not. I mean, we are perfectly entitled to say he has lost his mind
1:36:35
And that's why I said, what would you point at as proof of it? And I think even if you were to credit him
1:36:40
with having some sort of diabolical genius, which I have done, but not everybody agrees with
1:36:44
I would never, never have taken that point. 1.3 billion Catholics who were kind of all on the hook
1:36:53
for his latest attack against the Pope, a key part of his base in the United States of America
1:36:57
You know, it's more than a figure of speech when you're looking at someone like Donald Trump attacking the Pope to say he has clearly lost his marbles
1:37:06
Something quite significant has clearly happened. But what we've done this hour, and with your help, Tom, is take it back to that favourite ogy, probably, of this programme over the years
1:37:16
And we're kind of back to the boiled frog. So it may well be that we seen incremental increases in both conduct and impunity And that a threshold has been reached this week which has led these three two august commentators and one hat stand all to conclude within hours of each other
1:37:35
that in the case of the hat stand, Daniel Hannan, Donald Trump is losing his mind. In the case of Alan Rusbridger at the Prospect magazine
1:37:42
I was already worried about Trump's mental decline. It just got worse
1:37:45
And of course, in the case of Matthew Parris as well. James O'Brien on LBC
1:37:51
It's three minutes after 12, and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:37:56
There's a lovely piece in one newspaper today, in The Guardian, that details how members of the Finchley Reform Synagogue
1:38:05
which you will remember was the target of an attempted firebombing a few days ago
1:38:11
stepped in to help members of the Somali-Bravanese community when their centre was destroyed by arson 13 years ago
1:38:20
That's a Muslim congregation. and members of the Finchley Reform Synagogue realised that their Muslim neighbours
1:38:27
would be without anywhere to pray as Ramadan approached. So they offered them the use of the synagogue
1:38:32
for evening prayers for the duration of the holy month. And the arrangement stayed in place for four years
1:38:39
until their new centre was ready. And they were celebrating together this weekend
1:38:48
at the Shabbat service on Friday evening. There's a wonderful quote from Psalms painted high on the wall inside the synagogue
1:38:55
how good and how wonderful it is when friends sit together. And isn't that at odds with the feeling surrounding so many issues in the Middle East and beyond at the moment
1:39:07
That idea that a Muslim community, Somalis, many of whom were and of course still are refugees
1:39:14
could be welcomed into anywhere in this country. But the idea of the Finchley Reform Synagogue throwing open its doors for its Muslim neighbours just feels like a lesson, doesn't it
1:39:26
It feels like something that we should be learning from, all of us. The problem, of course, is that that story, beautiful though it is, sits below on the page of the newspaper that I'm looking at now, another story, which is anything but lovely
1:39:40
it is the chief rabbi's response to a number of incidents like the one at the finchley reform
1:39:47
synagogue which speak of sustained attacks on jews in this country the chief rabbi describes it as a
1:39:55
sustained campaign of violence and intimidation the kenton united synagogue in northwest london
1:40:01
being the latest to um to come under attack and as you heard in the news bulletin arrests have been
1:40:07
made, which limits some of what we can and can't say. But you probably also heard, or you may have
1:40:11
heard, one of the deputy commissioners of the Metropolitan Police on with Nick Ferrari this
1:40:16
morning suggesting that people are being sort of not even groomed online. They're kind of being
1:40:20
bribed with relatively pitiful sums of money. And this traces back to organisations allied with the
1:40:27
Iranian regime to go and attack synagogues in this country. And I couldn't work out why
1:40:37
approached these stories with a weird bubble in my tummy. I couldn't work out what it was that was
1:40:45
troubling me. And then I did. I hate these stories. I hate these events. I hate these
1:40:53
incidents of anti-Semitism with a passion that is identical to the feelings that I get with any
1:41:00
racist attacks, any far-right rhetoric, any attack upon members of our community whether it's a Nigel Farage fan saying that we should be setting
1:41:10
fire to hotels full of refugees or whether it's these apparently semi-state sponsored hoodlums
1:41:16
trying to set fire to synagogues in my town in London but what is missing from a lot of the
1:41:24
conversation is the fact that that hideous phrase anti-semitism is 110% accurate in this case
1:41:38
but it doesn't apply to an awful lot of people to whom it has been, or at whom it has been hurled
1:41:45
in recent months and years. And I think that this might be part of the problem
1:41:50
because it occurred to me as I was... I also got some fan mail this morning
1:41:54
Genuinely, dear James, enjoy your show, Monday to Friday on LBC. runs to four pages
1:41:59
And on the fourth page, we enjoy your show except the pro-Israel bias
1:42:05
Much room for improvement on this subject. And then you kindly detail some ways
1:42:11
in which you think I could do a better job. And I mention that only because
1:42:14
since the hideous terror attacks of October, the Hamas terror attacks of October the 7th
1:42:19
I've come in to begin with for relatively equal accusations of being biased against one side or the other
1:42:25
That's why I love the story of the Finchley Reformed Synagogue opening its doors and its hearts to the Somali-Bravanese community from just up the road so much
1:42:36
Because that's what makes my heart sing. But here's a problem that I've got, okay
1:42:43
I don't think it would be controversial to suggest that a lot of the ill will and anti-Semitism that is bubbling up to the surface in this country at the moment is linked to events in the Middle East
1:42:56
If you're looking for reasons why the volume is being turned up on this ancient hatred, it is going to have a lot to do with Gaza and the genocide there undertaken by Benjamin Netanyahu's regime
1:43:10
So I sit here today as somebody who is repulsed. That's not even a strong enough word
1:43:20
Somebody who is utterly heartbroken and disgusted by what Benjamin Netanyahu has done in Gaza
1:43:26
Utterly disgusted by it. And utterly disgusted by anti-Semitism of any kind, particularly, obviously, when it veers into physical violence
1:43:35
We have, you know, people dead in Manchester as a direct consequence of an anti-Semitic attack
1:43:43
The conflation of every Jew in this country with the current Israeli regime is problematic on a million different levels
1:43:53
But I think some people struggle to accept, even that a Jew in this country who supports what Benjamin Netanyahu has done in Gaza and is currently doing in Lebanon, has as much right to peace and safety as anybody else does
1:44:08
The conflation is never valid. A lot of people struggle with this
1:44:14
And I think one of the reasons why a lot of people struggle with it is because we've been silenced
1:44:20
the idea that somebody who is disgusted by anti-semitism and disgusted by genocide in gaza
1:44:28
is utterly unrepresented in all of the conversation and i think and you might be
1:44:35
about to prove me wrong on this i think that we are probably the biggest constituency
1:44:41
i think there are probably more people in this country disgusted by genocide and disgusted by
1:44:48
antisemitism, then there are people comfortable with genocide or comfortable with antisemitism
1:44:55
I honestly do And I don completely understand why those voices are largely absent from these conversations
1:45:05
I despise anti-Semitism. I despise genocide. And I don't see any difficulty in keeping the two both present and separate
1:45:19
So, how do we do that? I mean, do you feel, and I'll have a look at my inbox in a minute
1:45:28
and we'll see what the order of the day is, but do you feel that the conversation is weird in the way that I do
1:45:43
That you can't really find any obvious places in which those two twin positions are sustainable
1:45:52
I am repulsed by anti-Semitism I am accused of anti-Semitism for condemning genocide in Gaza
1:46:00
and condemning the Israeli regime I have been pretty much since it became clear
1:46:05
that Netanyahu's response to the terror attacks was going to be hideously disproportionate
1:46:10
and that is the price I pay for the amazing job that I've got
1:46:14
but equally I know anti-Semitism when I see it and setting fire to synagogues or attacking synagogues
1:46:25
or attacking people simply for being Jewish or spitting at people because they're wearing a Star of David
1:46:29
is hideous. But I don't know... I don't know how to make this voice louder
1:46:39
I mean, I know how to make my voice louder. You just turn the volume up on your radio or your smart speaker
1:46:45
But I don't know how helpful it is to anybody to have created this silo
1:46:51
where anybody speaking out against Israel is accused of being anti-Semitic because it means that when real anti-Semitism happens
1:47:00
as is happening now on a scale which isn't unprecedented tragically but is definitely growing
1:47:08
it's as if some people don't know quite what to do. I know anti-Semitism when I see it
1:47:15
and I know dangerous false accusations when I see them, how do we square this circle
1:47:23
Am I talking about you? 03456060973. And the thing is, you could be Jewish, you could be Catholic
1:47:30
you could be agnostic, you could be atheist. If you're Jewish, you're going to feel more strongly about anti-Semitism
1:47:36
because you are a potential target of it, but you're not necessarily going to feel more or less strongly about genocide
1:47:42
You're no more responsible for it than I am. even if Benjamin Netanyahu repeatedly claims that he is acting for the Jewish people
1:47:50
and he cites biblical justification for some of the things that he does, that's just one man
1:47:56
That's just one man indulging in propaganda. It doesn't make you responsible for what's gone on there or what's gone on in Lebanon
1:48:04
And yet, I presume that the targeting of Jewish-linked premises is in part a consequence of Israeli activities in the Middle East
1:48:17
Israeli genocide in Gaza, Israeli incursions at the moment in Lebanon. I don't know if you saw the story from Lebanon this weekend
1:48:24
of an IDF soldier attacking a crucifix, smashing Jesus' head with a sledgehammer while in uniform
1:48:30
It's been confirmed by the IDF that that's true. The kind of comparisons Kemi Badenow was making on Nick's show this morning
1:48:37
are so boneheaded and unhelpful. So, well, what if it was this and what if it was that
1:48:42
But, I mean, that got me as a Catholic, as a Christian, as somebody who has had a crucifix in every classroom I've ever sat in
1:48:49
and most buildings. The idea of an IDF soldier taking a sledgehammer to Jesus' head
1:48:55
in the middle of the raising of a Lebanese, a Christian Lebanese village
1:49:00
it's absolutely hideous. But I don't hold anybody else responsible for that
1:49:05
I don't hold a Jewish mate or a Jewish colleague responsible for the attack upon that crucifix
1:49:12
Why would you hold all Jews responsible for the actions of the Israeli government, even if, perhaps especially if
1:49:19
the Israeli government claims that it is acting for all Jews? So there's an element of the conversation
1:49:25
that I don't think is had often enough. How much of this is exacerbated
1:49:31
by the rhetoric of extremism coming out of Benjamin Netanyahu and some of his closest colleagues
1:49:40
I've read some fascinating insights into how anti-Semitism is rising and the Israeli government is not helping
1:49:50
But the only people ultimately responsible for acts of anti-Semitism are the anti-Semites
1:49:55
so why are the voices of those who find the actions of the Israeli regime
1:50:05
abhorrent and the actions of anti-Semites in our own country abhorrent why are they so absent from this conversation
1:50:12
you can have a crack at answering that if you want, why are they so
1:50:17
I mean in many ways I'm talking about myself you know how my mind works
1:50:22
if I feel somehow bullied into not talking about something, then I am going to talk about it
1:50:28
regardless of what the subject matter may be. But I just felt a bubble in my belly
1:50:33
when I looked at that juxtaposition of stories here today. UK's chief rabbi warns of sustained attack on Jews
1:50:40
after spate of anti-Semitic incidents. And then quiet allyship, people of two faiths united in solidarity
1:50:46
the Finchley Reform Synagogue, throwing open its doors for its Muslim neighbours
1:50:50
And I just felt a bubble in my tummy about, hang on a minute, I'm one of those people who is repulsed by anti-Semitism
1:50:58
and repulsed by Benjamin Netanyahu's regime and activities in Gaza. I suppose question number one is, am I right
1:51:08
Is it almost impossible in public in Britain to be simultaneously disgusted by anti-Semitism
1:51:14
and disgusted by genocide? 0345 6060 973. I'm not going mad, am I
1:51:23
You are describing me, writes Lauren. The media has done that silencing, in my opinion
1:51:30
I don't know. But it does feel to me to be odd, at the very least
1:51:38
that you're not allowed to be sincerely disgusted by both. By anti-Semitism, particularly on our own streets
1:51:47
and by genocide. in Gaza and the continuing abominations being visited upon Lebanese people
1:51:58
So, question number one, am I right? 03456060973. And how has this happened
1:52:08
Why is that the case? Why is it almost impossible? I've heard discussions about the spate
1:52:13
of anti-Semitic attacks conducted without any mention of the Middle East. I've heard discussions about the latest round conducted without any mention of the Middle East
1:52:24
If you going after a criminal one of the first things you need if you seeking a prosecution is motive right Means opportunity and motive How can you have a conversation about a crime without contemplating motive
1:52:36
If you think I'm wrong, 03456060973, if you think that the increasing temperature of anti-Semitism
1:52:44
has absolutely nothing to do with what's going on in the Middle East, then I want to take your call
1:52:50
But, goodness me, it's odd isn't it that you're not allowed to find both disgusting
1:52:56
the actions of the Israeli government and the actions of anti-Semites on our streets in our city
1:53:02
how has this happened and I think the question I really want your help with
1:53:06
is um can we fix it can we fix it why is it so hard for some people to understand that
1:53:18
that bloke over there that synagogue around the corner, is not responsible for or answerable for the actions of the political leadership in Israel at the moment
1:53:33
Am I right? How did it happen? Can we fix it? 0345 6060 973
1:53:43
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 21 minutes after 12. I think I can answer the first question
1:53:49
And it's definitely not just me. Perhaps you think I'm wrong to feel the way that I feel
1:53:53
that it has somehow become almost impossible publicly in this country to abhor both anti-Semitism and the conduct of the current Israeli government
1:54:04
But why is a question you can help answer. And what we can do about it is a question
1:54:10
that we probably need to start answering together. I don't want to live in a country where places of worship are attacked
1:54:15
I don't want to live in a country where the Shadow Justice Secretary can call for public prayers to be outlawed for one religion, as Nick Timothy did with Muslims not long ago
1:54:26
Something Kemi Bader not seem to have forgotten when she was doing the interview rounds earlier this morning
1:54:31
You're calling for one religion to be forbidden. If you want to play that silly game, well, imagine if
1:54:37
Imagine if Nick Timothy had called for Jews to be banned from praying in public in this country because it's a, quote, Christian, end quotes, country
1:54:45
Would he be getting the same reaction as he got? Would he get defended by his party leader
1:54:50
It's mad. That's why I love this story. I might share it with you on Blue Sky
1:54:55
How good and how wonderful it is when friends sit together, painted high on the wall in the Finchley Reform Synagogue
1:55:04
And as the congregation gathered for Shabbat service on Friday evening, it felt like an especially apt sentiment, writes Esther Adley
1:55:13
And one of the loveliest things I've read in a very long time, Three days after the synagogue was the target of an attempted firebombing
1:55:19
hundreds of members came together in solidarity, joined by guests including one special group of neighbours
1:55:26
members of the Somali Bravanese community, many of whom arrived in the area as refugees
1:55:31
and whose own centre was destroyed by arson 13 years ago. On that occasion, realising their Muslim neighbours
1:55:38
would be without anywhere to pray as Ramadan approached, Finchley Reformed Synagogue offered them use of the synagogue
1:55:44
for evening prayers for the duration of the holy month. The arrangement lasted for four years
1:55:51
Tom's in Barnet. Tom, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Yeah, this is a big one
1:55:58
You can say that again. Yeah, I'm doubly nervous. A, because I'm talking to you again for a long time
1:56:05
and B, because, yeah, this is such a big subject. It's a big subject in our house
1:56:10
Okay. Because I'm not Jewish myself, but my wife is, and my children are. Yes
1:56:15
And this conversation this morning made me think about a Facebook post that I did about, I can't remember, just after the attacks in Manchester
1:56:26
And I was saying the same thing. Like, I'm horrified by what happened in Israel on October the 7th and the response by Netanyahu in Gaza
1:56:36
And then I was horrified by what happened in Manchester. and then these attacks now, you know, these anti-Semitic attacks are on the rise now
1:56:46
and I'm nervous, my wife is really nervous. Yeah, so I just..
1:56:52
Do you recognise what I described? The difficulty, the near impossibility of simultaneously condemning
1:57:00
what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza and abhorring anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic attacks
1:57:08
especially in this country. It's a voice that I very rarely hear
1:57:12
That's the thing. And that was the second thing I was saying in that post
1:57:16
was exactly the same thing. And it's terrible that I should feel nervous to even say it
1:57:22
because I was worried about what the comeback was going to be
1:57:27
And I was lucky that everyone, all our friends said, yeah, I hear you, I hear where you're coming from
1:57:32
I didn't get any sort of comeback from some of the other people
1:57:37
that I'm aware of who are posting much more troubling things. But, you know, even if you had friends or family members
1:57:45
who were supportive of what Netanyahu has done in Gaza, it wouldn't or shouldn't involve any targets being painted on their backs
1:57:55
in this country or anywhere else. No, exactly. I think the one thing that I would maybe disagree with you with
1:58:05
and it's something that my wife and I were talking about just yesterday
1:58:09
is that I think it's an excuse. I think that there are anti-Semitic people who walk among us
1:58:18
and the situation which is happening in Gaza and what Netanyahu is doing
1:58:23
I think it sometimes gives these people a reason to attack people physically or verbally
1:58:29
and just voice those opinions that they've always had. Oh, I don't think we're disagreeing. I think that's indubitable. It's why I use the phrase ancient hatred in my introduction. But to be fair, mate, my introductions go on so long you could be forgiven for missing a moment or two. And of course they exist. But equally, there are people who have been, quotes, radicalized, end quotes, by their horror at what has happened since October the 7th, what has been done to the Palestinian people since October the 7th
1:58:59
And I don't know how you separate the two. I suppose you just look at their track record, don't you
1:59:03
And find out whether or not these seeds started sprouting relatively recently
1:59:07
or whether they've been there for years or for decades. Why do you think it's happened
1:59:13
Why do you think you felt the way that you felt? That it would be so difficult to simultaneously
1:59:18
for obvious reasons in your case, given that it would be directed at your children, to be repulsed by anti-Semitism
1:59:24
and to be profoundly disapproving or disgusted by the actions of the Israeli regime, government
1:59:33
I think I'm going to go back to one of your other phrases. I think it's footballification
1:59:37
Are you really? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I mean, it shouldn't be, though, should it
1:59:42
It shouldn't, but it's still happening. Like you can see it in every other conversation that you have
1:59:49
A friend of mine who lives up in Scotland, you know, we have similar views on most things
1:59:54
but every now and again, you know, he'll ask me, well, what's your view on trans or what's your view on whatever
1:59:59
And, you know, I'm just like, well, what do you want me to say
2:00:03
Do you want me to pick a side and start shouting? Or do you want me to, you know, go down the middle
2:00:08
which is where I try to do with most things? So I think he reads a lot of the tabloids
2:00:16
I mean, he says he thinks about stuff. I don't know. But it's just..
2:00:20
You're not allowed nuance. You're not allowed... Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm sorry for what you're going through
2:00:27
And of course, I'm very, very sorry for what your wife and children are going through as well, which is a culture, a climate of fear
2:00:35
Well, I mean, in these situations, she talks actively about moving back to Israel
2:00:39
And, you know, and she and I, I've never been there, so I don't know what it's like. But even on the prospect of that, we disagree because it shows a lot that she would consider moving back to Israel under threat of rocket fire and spending time in shelters over staying here where the environment seems to be moving entirely in the wrong direction
2:01:05
And she's talking about parallels with 1930s Germany and all that kind of stuff
2:01:10
and that's a massive thing if she's considering that. It is, and yet it makes sense, doesn't it
2:01:20
It's kind of inevitable in the circumstances. Thank you, Tom. Here's my first accusation of anti-Semitism from Joel
2:01:27
so far the only one, and it's such a tired trope, Joel
2:01:31
How many hours have you done on the much deadlier war in Sudan as opposed to Gaza
2:01:35
Oh yeah, not one, there's your anti-Semitism right there. you're just going to have to run me through
2:01:40
the Sudanese dimension to British society and the British government's role as an ally of the architects of genocide in Sudan, Joel
2:01:51
you're just going to have to run me through why you don't talk more about the situation in Sudan
2:01:56
than you do about the situation in, for example, Israel you're just going to have to run me through
2:02:01
what it is that the British government does to support the people responsible for war in Sudan
2:02:08
as opposed to the British government's role or our country's role in Middle Eastern events
2:02:15
and Middle Eastern history. It's just... Listen, it's absolutely fine to be thick or to be ignorant
2:02:22
That's something that we're all guilty of on occasion. But to move from your own ignorance
2:02:26
to accusing me of anti-Semitism for condemning the genocide in Gaza more often than I condemn the genocide in Sudan
2:02:37
That's part of the problem, Joel. That's... What word do you use
2:02:41
If I'm anti-Semitic for condemning genocide, what word do you use for people firebombing synagogues
2:02:46
Because you're going to have to come up with a stronger one, aren't you? It can't be the same thing that you're describing
2:02:51
But here you are. Matt Hewitt has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
2:02:57
12.32 is the time. This remark in Manchester. Mr. James, you make such a valid point about accusations of anti-Semitism when criticizing Israel
2:03:05
I want to cry, scream and pull my hair out when spokespeople for Israel after some terrible event
2:03:11
either in Gaza by Israel or in the UK against Jews, aggressively shut down conversation by just shouting anti-Semitism over and over again
2:03:20
We are never going to find peace for Jews, Israelis, Muslims, Palestinians and anyone else if we cannot talk to each other
2:03:27
Thank you for your bravery. Talk about it. I don't know that it's bravery, Mark
2:03:31
It's a combination of confusion, perhaps, and probably a degree of stubbornness
2:03:37
Sarah takes up the theme. Thank you so much, James. I've been feeling this, and it's left me confused and feeling alone
2:03:42
There's no representation of us who feel that both parties are acting in an abhorrent fashion
2:03:49
It's scary to speak out about this situation. I suppose it is, and that, I guess, is why Mark uses the word bravery
2:03:55
It is scary to speak out about this situation, which in itself is a terrifying truth, as we should be able to speak
2:04:02
It's interesting, isn't it? Both of those messages picking up on a similar theme of the conversation somehow being curtailed or censored
2:04:10
or people feeling that they're not allowed to express horror at anti-Semitism
2:04:14
and horror at Benjamin Netanyahu's government. Judith writes, I totally agree with you
2:04:19
I've been on a few of the marches for Palestine and was so pleased to see Jewish people supporting the cause
2:04:24
I feel as much for them as I do for the people of Palestine and Lebanon, all suffering at the hands of the Israeli leaders
2:04:31
That needs to be pointed out more often. If there were a clearer definition of anti-Semitism, it would be easier to express abhorrence of actions as opposed to a religion
2:04:42
I don't know, maybe, it's not a thought I've had before. Lots of messages like that coming, and I'm looking for some different perspectives
2:04:50
but apart from old Joel there accusing me of anti-Semitism because we're talking about attacks on synagogues
2:04:55
as opposed to something to do with Sudan, I don't actually have any at the moment
2:05:02
Afternoon, James, writes Margaret. Like you, I'm appalled by the Israeli genocide in Gaza
2:05:06
and by anti-Semitism, and I am vocal in my criticism of both
2:05:10
but a lot of people don't speak out about the former from fear of being accused of the latter
2:05:16
That's definitely true. Stephen's in Shrewsbury. Stephen, what would you like to say
2:05:20
Hello, James. Thanks. I'm a Jew. I don't practice for faith. I haven't done for a long time. I've got family in Israel. But I think it was probably around the time of the Lebanon War, 79. And some of us, I was probably in my late teens then, were starting to say, hang on a minute. This is not where we want the country to be going
2:05:47
so we started to criticize the Israeli government and our friends would look at us and say
2:05:53
you can't do that so fast forward to now via a lot of wars
2:06:00
and we're in a situation where I don't talk to many of my old Jewish friends
2:06:05
they haven't really fallen out I think they just were going on a different path
2:06:12
and actually recently I think what's been happening because the way that the Israeli government directed the war against the Palestinians
2:06:22
has started to make even those people wonder about whether the Israeli government can be separated from your identity as a Jew
2:06:33
and therefore can be criticised. But I think one of the big problems is that that culturally embedded And it really really hard You know I got family who are practicing the faith
2:06:49
and I would find it difficult to talk to them without it ending in, you know, cold silence
2:06:56
Because, you see, that's the strange thing, isn't it, for non-Jews, is that I can understand it, but I'm never going to feel it
2:07:03
The idea that I will support everything that is done by any government of Israel
2:07:08
if it is done in the name of our security, because of the shadow of the Holocaust still being so long and so dark
2:07:15
and Israel being the place where you go when it starts happening again. So it's a part of your identity not to criticize
2:07:23
When I was 16, we went out in an organized trip, and I think it must have been around the time
2:07:31
that one of the popes was doing his world tour and he used to get on the ground
2:07:36
at wherever he'd landed and kiss the ground in a very sort of demonstrative thing
2:07:42
So me and my mate did that when we got to Tel Aviv airport
2:07:46
and we were overwhelmed with joy and then over the next few years
2:07:52
it just became a horror show. I've got family living out there
2:07:58
I lived out there for a while. I protested against the government with Israeli Jews
2:08:04
Yes. And everybody had a reason why we were wrong. But there are people in Israel who are Jews
2:08:14
working with Palestinians every day. My nephew is one of them. And they don't get on the news
2:08:23
We've tried on this program. We've had a few on this problem
2:08:27
It's so important to recognize that good work. The self-appointed spokespeople and the official spokespeople
2:08:35
are always speaking from a position of supporting Benjamin Netanyahu's government, and whether they do it explicitly or implicitly
2:08:43
imputing anti-Semitism on the part of anybody that criticizes it. No, absolutely, but the truth is
2:08:49
everybody hates Netanyahu in Israel. They support him because they're trying to get whatever it is they're trying to get
2:09:00
And remember, in Israel, the government is proportional representation, and it's a very weird one because the Arabs don't get a proportional vote as such
2:09:11
But it means that the right-wing little parties, they can club together and hold sway
2:09:17
and then add to the mix the American military industrial complex and all the money
2:09:25
and you've just got a recipe for disaster. We should look at that and worry about what's happening here
2:09:33
and the cultural identity of the flag and all that stuff because we need to not forget that there are people
2:09:42
working across the tracks holding their hands out you know it's like I do know
2:09:50
about people coming together and sharing and yet it doesn't fit the footballification narrative
2:09:56
does it it's as if you have to pick a side as you've discovered with the friends from whom you've
2:10:00
drifted apart over the years you're not allowed to find common ground
2:10:04
or fellow feeling thank you Stephen I can sense the suffering that you've gone through over the years
2:10:10
as you've wrestled with this stuff and you've clearly been wrestling with it for decades
2:10:14
while we've only really turned our attention to this specific element of the conversation today
2:10:20
I don't know how helpful was it when there was a letter, wasn't there
2:10:24
published in the Financial Times by members of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
2:10:29
and then they got suspended for expressing misgivings about the war in Gaza
2:10:35
I don't know what happened to that story. I think they were planning to appeal at one point, but the letter was published in the Financial Times
2:10:41
and resulted in the people who signed the letter being suspended, what they described as the enhanced punishment
2:10:50
of effective expulsion from the board of deputies of British Jews. And I guess that adds to the idea
2:10:58
that no one's allowed to speak out, especially Jewish people like you, Stephen
2:11:03
Chris is in Bifleet. Chris, what would you like to say? Hello, James. I wanted to just pinpoint it down a little further
2:11:08
but I think it is a very extreme form of footballification. I wish I'd never invented that bloody word
2:11:13
I know. It's a difficult one. The challenge is, I think there's so many multi-facets here, that where you pick a point
2:11:19
people often tend to stick with the kind of where history began for them position
2:11:24
For some, they may think October the 7th. They may think the 1946 war
2:11:29
They might think the end of the Ottoman Empire. They may think of British mandates, colonialism
2:11:35
And every side, you might pick a principal position. There is a tragic victim on the other side
2:11:41
both sides have been historically tragically mistreated both in their region and externally
2:11:48
I understand exactly why Jewish people will see a draw to Israel and a feeling of protection there
2:11:56
because it's a state that they feel is geared around their protection and flourishment
2:11:59
but it is, it's not just that they feel it it is
2:12:04
unfortunately that leads has led unfortunately to a very their reactions I remember taking my daughter to the Palestine march a year or so ago
2:12:13
She's only, at the time she was nine. And she was asking to explain the situation, and I felt very, very torn
2:12:19
It says, okay, here's the situation. It's very challenging. There are victims on both sides
2:12:23
What we're discussing here, the problem right now is one side is significantly more military strong
2:12:29
and will react to provocation and harm with an extreme physical force
2:12:34
because they have been bullied historically and currently for so long in such terrible ways
2:12:39
they may react in a very disproportionately aggressive way. And so you have one side essentially throwing rocks
2:12:47
and the other side coming back and throwing a grenade at them. Yes, I know you know this, but just for the benefit of avoidance of any doubt
2:12:55
the events of October 7th were a lot more than throwing rocks. No, it was an absolute crime against humanity, frankly
2:13:03
And then the side who obviously will defend that will say, well, look at how victimised the perpetrators were
2:13:09
And you can say, yes, I see that, but at the same time, that doesn't justify inhuman treatment
2:13:13
And nor does that justify the Inhuman Cancer Act. Why do you think it is I mean footballification is that why I say I wish I never invented the word because it covers a lot of ground without necessarily providing any detail Why does everybody who contributed to the program so far apart from Joel accusing me of anti
2:13:31
why does everybody feel that it is really difficult to simultaneously condemn anti-Semitism
2:13:36
and condemn the Israeli activities in Gaza? Why do you think it is
2:13:41
I think because each slide again has such a painful and visceral feeling of harm
2:13:48
that it comes across and you're minimising their suffering and they will have a very
2:13:54
understandably passionate pushback that's very, yeah so your authenticity involves trying really hard to see
2:14:02
both positions even as you disagree with both of them yes and it's a challenge
2:14:07
there's such an easy thing for But unfortunately, people say, for example
2:14:11
utilizing anti-Semitic tropes to frame and justify and sort of justify why, for example, Israel is uniquely evil
2:14:17
rather than actually it's a tragedy of history, frankly, that we are in this situation that we're in
2:14:22
And my daughter and I, she kind of came away with, well, I'm a team
2:14:26
People should be safe. And I said, yes, I would like to see everyone safe. The challenge is there is currently no solution
2:14:33
that fits either side. And that's part of the answer to the question as well, Chris
2:14:37
She's a bright girl, your daughter, because that is part of the problem as well
2:14:41
is that the idea of securing the safety of everybody is certainly not the credo or the battle cry
2:14:49
of any of the big players in these matters. It's certainly not the aim of the Israeli government
2:14:55
as they literally razed to the ground the homes of entirely innocent Lebanese people most recently
2:15:03
And it's not any stretch of the imagination the goal of the terror leaders, of the Islamist terror leaders either
2:15:11
They don't want safety for everybody. They want victory. They want dominion, domination
2:15:18
And there it is. And that's why I think the decision to set these two stories
2:15:22
on top of each other in The Guardian today, the Finchley Reform Synagogue
2:15:27
and the rise in anti-Semitic incidents was so powerful. It was so powerful and so wise
2:15:34
but also speaking to a world that we don't really inhabit yet
2:15:38
0345 60 60 973 is the number you need to join this conversation
2:15:44
I want to catch up with Aggie Chombray shortly. Hopefully we'll have time for some more calls as well
2:15:48
on exactly what's going to happen in the House of Commons this afternoon when Keir Starmer gets to his feet
2:15:55
James O'Brien on LBC. 48 is the time. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
2:16:02
and I may return to the conversation that we've been having about the curious curtailment, silencing, reluctance, I think
2:16:12
A lot of you talking about being frightened of coming forward to simply say that you abhor anti-Semitism
2:16:18
and condemn Israeli activity in Gaza, whether you choose to use the word genocide or not
2:16:25
And I don't know why that is, but it is footballification, isn't it
2:16:29
At least at entry level. but it is at half past three today that the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer
2:16:35
will get to his feet in the House of Commons. An event that feels less urgent today, to me at least, than it did on Friday
2:16:41
but is still, Agui Chambre, LBC's Deputy Political Editor, quite a moment
2:16:45
Quite a moment indeed. And I think you're right. I think it does feel slightly less urgent than it did on Friday
2:16:52
when Labour MPs, who are the most important audience at 3.30 today
2:16:58
were absolutely incandescent with rage. I think the things that have happened to make it feel slightly less urgent
2:17:05
is Labour MPs have been reminding each other, reminding themselves that there isn't a clear successor
2:17:12
They've also spent the weekend knocking on doors because, of course, we are two weeks out from those local elections
2:17:19
And lots of them have told me that hasn't come up a lot on the doorstep. And also we're two weeks away from the local election
2:17:24
So what a terrible time, they say, it would be to get rid of their leader
2:17:29
But it is still urgent, it is still important, and they are still very, very angry
2:17:33
The Prime Minister's argument this afternoon is going to be that he and Parliament should have been alerted sooner
2:17:38
to the fact that security officials did not believe that Lord Mandelson should have accessed a secret
2:17:43
Who should have told him? Yeah, who's he going to have beef with? Because he's sacked Ollie Robbins, so is he carrying the biggest can of all
2:17:50
Absolutely, yes. So despite the fact that he's been sacked, he is still the one who is going to be carrying the can
2:17:54
And, of course, we will hear from him at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning
2:17:59
So that will be in time for my show. Yes, indeed. So the Prime Minister is basically going to say
2:18:03
look, the Foreign Office should have told us, Olly Robbins should have told us
2:18:08
It's not entirely clear, James, whether Olly Robbins had seen the full vetting..
2:18:14
Someone must have seen it, Aggie. Someone must have seen it. Well, quite, but there are all of these questions
2:18:18
that don't seem to actually have been answered yet. But the Prime Minister's point is that
2:18:23
The reason that the Prime Minister found out about this was because somebody from the civil service did tell him
2:18:29
So the Cabinet Office Permanent Secretary, Kat Little, did tell the Prime Minister last Tuesday
2:18:34
And we know that that did happen. I think everyone I've spoken to does believe that that was when he did find out
2:18:39
because not only did they publish minutes from that meeting, but we've literally seen him sort of being told in that meeting last Tuesday
2:18:47
But the point from the government is, well, if Kat Little could have told the Prime Minister
2:18:51
then couldn't someone else have told the Prime Minister? They've also sort of got this document from 2010
2:18:57
that said no law stops civil servants sensibly flagging UK security vetting recommendations
2:19:04
I have a theory. Go on. Don't say it like that. I'm glad you're indulging me
2:19:08
No, I want to hear it. You're going to give me a lollipop. I think that everyone relaxed
2:19:15
when the announcement of Mendelssohn's appointment was greeted with such universal approval
2:19:19
I just think people started paying rather less attention to detail than they would have done otherwise
2:19:26
and then something comes back and says, oh, he hasn't been vetted and you're like, oh, well, we can't go and rain on this parade
2:19:31
everyone's delighted, everything A, the perception that the Prime Minister wanted it
2:19:34
which may or may not have been true Morgan McSweeney did so Downing Street want this to happen
2:19:39
which means the Civil Service does what the Civil Service always does and tries to bend towards the will of the executive
2:19:46
and B, the idea that this is actually a really popular thing that he's done
2:19:50
Um, well hey! And lots of people said, ooh, what a smart choice
2:19:54
Yes. Yes. And that might explain why attention um was lower than the rest of us with the benefit of 2020 hindsight might attention to detail might have expected I don know I think one of the problems for the Prime Minister to your point
2:20:09
is that Peter Mandelson was announced in December 2024 and the vetting actually hadn't been done at that stage
2:20:18
And one of the things that's been dug out today by Sky News
2:20:22
is the fact that in that first tranche of documents that we got in the Humble Address
2:20:26
Keir Starmer was told by Simon Case, who was then the cabinet secretary
2:20:32
that if you want, there are two options on how to proceed, if you want a political appointment
2:20:37
then you should give us the name of the person you would like to appoint and we will develop a plan for them to acquire the necessary security clearances
2:20:45
But before appointing them. That did not happen because he was appointed December 2024
2:20:50
and the security vetting happened January 2025 and that's when he did not pass that security vetting
2:20:59
So that chronology is difficult to explain, is going to be difficult to explain at 3.30
2:21:04
I've got another theory, is that you probably subconsciously find yourself thinking
2:21:09
well, he's been Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, hasn't he? So why do we need to vet him
2:21:16
So there might even have been a bit of complacency in place there as well
2:21:21
but the Simon Case thing feels pretty significant. but as we said at the outset not significant enough to upset the apple cart um fatally yes
2:21:29
but again it is difficult for him that there were you know that vetting had not been done when he
2:21:34
was appointed in december 24 none of which would matter if he passed the vetting true belatedly so
2:21:39
there's so many ifs and buts here yes it's extraordinary but yeah why did you ignore
2:21:44
simon case on this would be a hard question to answer hard question to answer and also i mean it
2:21:48
does come back to that point that sort of so-called original sin of appointing peter mandelson when
2:21:54
yes they didn't know that he was going to fail this vetting what they did know was that he was
2:21:58
mates had been mates with jeffrey epstein and that he did have links to russia um and china
2:22:04
those were flagged in due diligence due diligence checks um before he was appointed uh two in
2:22:09
december 2024 so and there were loads of labor figures loads of labor mps who thought it was a
2:22:15
bad idea to appoint him to your point there were lots of people in the labour party who actually
2:22:18
thought it was a brilliant idea and trump's a tricky character and beyond and beyond i mean a lot of starmer's enemies thought it was a brilliant idea as well although they're sort of reverse
2:22:26
ferreting and pretending that they didn't private eyes done a very good job of round it as it always
2:22:30
does of rounding up the reverse ferrets and not quite as spectacular as nigel farage's reverse
2:22:35
ferret that we stumbled across last week with regards to ollie robbins but still pretty
2:22:39
spectacular reverse ferrets as well um and does he then get questioned does does kemi bader not
2:22:45
come back at him with questions and and do we know what the time scale is how long it goes on for
2:22:50
uh so he will make his statement he will make his arguments kemi badenock uh will then respond to
2:22:55
that he will then respond to kemi badenock and then there'll be questions from the floor so that
2:23:00
will include uh his opponents and also um questions which i think will be could be more damaging um
2:23:06
from his own side from labour mps i mean i spoke to one labour mp earlier who said they might not
2:23:09
turn up because they were so cross about it and um they said i can't say anything supportive so i
2:23:14
not go and then said you know he has not got a clue which i think is one of those charges being
2:23:19
leveled against this man who was supposed to be this competent figure and lots oh i said yeah
2:23:24
absolutely that ship has sailed missed the process absolutely no chance and also mr lawyer if he was
2:23:30
my lawyer i'd have fired him on the spot on fire he said well i didn't realize he hadn't passed his
2:23:33
vetting sorry about that that's not good aggie thank you um will we be taking it live do we know
2:23:38
Have you consulted Sheila Fogarty? No? Well, tune in to find out
2:23:43
Stay tuned to find out. But I'm sure we'll be hearing from Aggie again before the day is over
2:23:47
Back to this question. A lot of you, really, a surprising number of people picking up on this point
2:23:52
which is hard to understand. You and your callers have nailed it. Thank you
2:23:57
There is no side for the people in the middle. There is nobody in the media representing the humans
2:24:02
who believe that both things are wrong. We're talking about anti-Semitism and the activities of Benjamin Netanyahu's government in the Middle East
2:24:10
We need more representation from these people. A lot of your recent callers should have more of a voice in public discourse
2:24:17
But in the world we live in today, you're either left or right, black or white
2:24:20
And it's no good just being motivated by humanity. There you go, Danny and Crawley. The pressure's on. Don't blow it
2:24:27
What would you like to say? Oh, that is pressure. Thanks for having me
2:24:32
You're welcome. So, I'm sort of looking at this from a more general angle
2:24:38
and I think perhaps sometimes we're allowing the loud voices to affect us too much
2:24:44
And when I say us, I'm talking about the people who can think about more than one thing at once. And essentially, it's almost an extension of the footballification, right
2:24:52
No matter what you're going to say, there's going to be a response of, you're an anti-Semite, or if it suits them
2:24:57
they might even start saying you're Islamophobic, if it's their argument, you know
2:25:01
Yeah, I've got a letter accusing me, a pro-Israel bias in front of me as we speak
2:25:05
And it's my job to take some of it, well, never take it flippantly
2:25:11
but to be confident when it's ridiculous and wrong, whether it's Joel's accusation of anti-Semitism earlier
2:25:16
or whether it's this letter accusing me of a pro-Israel bias. But if you don't do this for a living
2:25:20
it can be quite frightening to be on the end of some of these characterisations
2:25:26
Yeah, it can, it can. I mean, I've come across myself plenty, even in personal conversations with people who I love dearly
2:25:31
They just jump to, it's almost like they've been programmed to jump to those accusations
2:25:36
I mean, if you look, if anyone wants an example of someone who handles it so well
2:25:39
Zach Polanski's Instagram is amazing, you know. You've called me this. It's obviously nonsense. I am not that
2:25:45
So I'll just tell everyone that you called me and show everyone how silly you are. And I mean, Zach Polanski, a Jewish man who is fairly outspoken in his condemnation of Netanyahu's administration
2:25:56
So he kind of proves in many ways that the embodiment of the point that you're making, thank you
2:26:00
It's an excellent way to draw the conversation to a conclusion. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Pledge
2:26:07
You know, I had an unhinged headline, I had a missed info, I had all sorts of bits and bobs. Eleanor gets so cross with me, I just completely forgot
2:26:14
And she even sticks it in front of me on a big screen as a reminder, and I still manage to gloss over it
2:26:18
You can listen back on our free Global Player app, or the LBC app, or the gubbins, a range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Daily
2:26:26
the best bits from my LBC show every day, and full disclosure, which was, um
2:26:30
the last two episodes have been particularly lovely, even though I say so myself
2:26:34
So download the app for free from your app store. Tom Swalbrick with you at four
2:26:38
But now it's time for Sheila Fogarty. Thank you very much, James. James O'Brien on LBC
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