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Sir Keir Starmer was “not aware” that the Foreign Office had granted Peter Mandelson clearance to become US ambassador despite failing vetting until Tuesday night, a document released by Downing Street says. A readout of the meeting, published by No.10 on Friday, was sent by the Prime Minister's Principal Private Secretary, Dan York-Smith, following the meeting on Tuesday. The meeting is understood to have involved the Cabinet Secretary, Dame Antonia Romeo, and the Cabinet Office's permanent secretary, Catherine Little. Matt Frei is joined by Tory MP Alicia Kearns and Tony Blair's former spokesman Tom Kelly to consider if the failed vetting was 'gross incompetence' or if Parliament has been 'lied to'. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #mattfrei #petermandelson #mandelson #keirstarmer #ukpolitics #trump #epsteinfiles #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
What do you think has gone wrong here
0:03
You really can't believe that we are in the situation that we are. So Mandelson failed vetting
0:08
That is either because he disclosed something during his vetting that made him inappropriate to take up the role
0:13
It is either because he failed to disclose and therefore lied during the process
0:17
or it's because you already knew something about him. But the idea that in the four months
0:22
since the Prime Minister had to sack this enormous, important announcement, this big ambassador role that he'd essentially hung his future
0:29
for the relationship with the US on, didn't ask the question, were there any red flags during the vetting, were there any issues
0:36
and did he even pass it, is beggars' belief. So either Parliament was misled or there has been gross incompetence
0:44
and that is what we are waiting to find out. The leader of your party, Kemi Badenock, has said that he, the Prime Minister
0:50
lied in the Robbins affair. Is that true? Do you believe that? Is it a lie
0:55
If you go through every statement he has made, if you go through Yvette Cooper's letters to the Foreign Affairs Committee
1:00
there are either direct lies, which are where they say things such as the process is the exact same as it is for every ambassador
1:06
That is definitely not the case. I used to work at the Foreign Office. That is not the way that other ambassador roles have been vetted
1:12
or gone through the process. And they have also said things such as the process is the problem
1:17
We now know the process was not the problem. The problem was that they overruled someone
1:23
someone within the system made very clear to Ollie Robbins or somebody within the Foreign Office, because again, we have this murky thing where essentially
1:29
Manderson was appointed before Ollie Robbins took up the role as permanent secretary
1:34
Manderson was walking around with a security pass that said he had developed vetting
1:39
weeks before he was given developed vetting standard. So essentially there are real questions about who and what happened when
1:46
But yes, if you look back at the record of what the Prime Minister said in Parliament, I'm afraid it is almost impossible to see how he has not misled Parliament
1:53
He either misled them because of gross incompetence where he hadn't asked the basic questions
1:58
or he lied because he recklessly did not tell us the truth, which is the standard that Keir Starmer set for former prime ministers
2:06
Accusing anyone of lying, especially when their prime minister is a serious charge. Tom Kelly, what do you make of that
2:12
Well, nobody comes out of this very well. Let's go back to the source of this problem
2:17
The source of this problem was the appointment of Peter Mandelson because the Prime Minister then Chief of Staff wanted his mentor in the job in Washington for the reasons you set out very clearly But then that problem was then compounded by Ollie Robbins deciding to override the vetting results
2:37
It was then compounded even further in September whenever the first tranche of Epstein emails came out
2:46
and they didn't tell the prime minister at that time that Peter Manlesson had failed his vetting
2:54
And so the prime minister did mislead the House. And then even worse, they allowed it to happen again in January
3:01
So there have been failings on all sides. And I think the prime minister on Monday
3:06
faces probably the biggest test of his career. Can he strike the right tone and be transparent to the Commons
3:16
yesterday was not his finest day. Playing the blame game when you're the source of a problem
3:22
is not a wise move. If he misled Parliament once or perhaps twice
3:28
is that reason for him to resign? I think so long as he can prove that he misled Parliament
3:36
because he himself didn't have the full information, I think that's not a resigning matter
3:41
But this isn't the first time that Keir Starmer has had personnel problems
3:46
Therefore, I think he does have to reflect over the weekend. Was he himself at fault in this
3:53
Do you think that the original sin here, if that's the right word
3:57
was the appointment of a man for whom it wouldn't have come as a major surprise
4:02
that there were some shady aspects, to put it mildly, in his past
4:06
I mean, as I said earlier in my introduction, he had been sacked twice. There were many questions around him
4:12
His nickname was the Prince of Darkness. and he was chosen precisely because of those qualities and his undoubted charm and you know
4:21
he was seen to be a brilliant trade negotiator etc etc here was a guy who was chosen by the
4:27
prime minister because he would be able to operate effectively in this kind of white house and
4:33
therefore all the questions around his record and who he knew when he knew them and what he did with
4:38
them they were just secondary tom i i worked with peter whenever he was safe with states in north
4:44
ireland and then had to resign and i got to know peter quite well if it hadn been this problem it was going to be some other problem because peter he addicted to risk and therefore it was always going to be some problem and that was why appointing him was wrong
5:03
but also setting aside the results of the vetting was wrong so as i said nobody comes out of this
5:10
well alicia cairns um if peter mandelson is addicted to risk so was boris johnson addicted
5:17
to risk and he was a man who started a rather you know vituperative round of battles with the
5:22
with the civil service with with dominic cummins in charge of leading the leading the leading the
5:27
charge against the civil service so the toys are not entirely blameless in this particular world
5:32
are they there's no question that we need to see some civil service reform i'm a former civil servant
5:37
i worked at the foreign office in the ministry of justice and ministry of defense so i know where
5:41
there are problems uh but you'll also find that when i was uh when we were in power i was also
5:46
very critical of my own side where I felt we let things down. I think it becomes very
5:52
I'm not even sure of the word, a shameful affair when you spend your time blaming civil
5:56
servants for your decisions. The point is ministers decide and civil servants carry out their
6:02
decisions. That is the way that it works and yes you have some ministers who are more
6:06
effective, some who are very kind but not as good at putting a point and some who are very clear about what they
6:12
want and what they want to see delivered. The reality is this decision sat with
6:16
the Prime Minister, the idea that Olly Robbins did this on his own back, I'm afraid I just don't
6:21
believe it. And if it was that he genuinely did it, it must be because he was put under such
6:25
enormous pressure that he felt no other choice to do so. But I do not believe that before Tuesday
6:32
the Prime Minister did not know that Mandelson had failed his vetting. Because if you have to
6:37
sack your ambassador to the United States, and you choose, and it was their choice, to blame the
6:43
process then at some point over four months you would ask the question when we say the process is
6:48
to blame he did pass vetting right there weren't any red flags that came up and somehow they're
6:54
claiming they didn't do so so which is it as i said before gross incompetence or is it that we
6:59
were lied to and i'm afraid as i said to you i don't want to see people constantly blaming civil
7:03
servants where civil servants are to blame because they've made the wrong decisions obviously they
7:07
should be held to account we have to have accountability at every level of public service
7:11
but ultimately the buck stops with the principle. Tom Kelly, I mean, Keir Starmer, it could be argued
7:18
has actually negotiated the Strait of Hormuz and the Strait of this particular war reasonably well I mean he didn make the mistake that you know for instance
7:28
many people believe Kemi Betnock made at the beginning by saying, we have to be with the Americans
7:32
100%. She's now rode back on that a little bit. But it's
7:36
been tricky for him. And you could argue that he's had quite a good war if you can have such a
7:40
thing at all. The fact that he's now picked to fight with the foreign office of all
7:44
places is particularly damaging, isn't it? Yes, it is. But I think to develop the point slightly, civil servants take calculated judgment on a daily basis right across the board, whether it's the Foreign Office, the Home Office or whatever
8:02
And they do so in the expectations that if they make a mistake, ministers will understand that they made that mistake trying to do the best for the ministers
8:13
if you are a civil servant now are you going to risk your career on something that's not quite
8:22
black and white for the prime minister or is the prime minister always going to turn on you
8:27
that's the question that i think quite all will be asking itself and that's not a position that
8:34
any prime minister should put themselves in the prime minister on monday has to be straight a
8:41
torn of contriteness. He started this mess. He has to own this mess. And he has to, A
8:49
recognise that civil servants make mistakes, but recognise that sometimes they make mistakes
8:54
on his behalf because they're trying to do the best job they can. Lisa Kearns, final question to you and a brief answer, please. You worked in the civil service
9:03
You are also in politics. If someone came to you and said, should I pursue a career in the
9:08
civil service and go all the way to the top what would your advice be to them um i think tom struck
9:14
exactly the right point there the problem in the civil service was that i was a risk taker and i
9:18
was someone who was always told alicia that's good enough just leave it as it is and i'd always say no it's not it's not achieving what it needs to and i'd always push and push and push and go further
9:27
than i was told was all that was necessary um so yes that is the biggest problem in our civil service
9:32
we need more people who are willing to take risks and are willing to challenge uh the way of working
9:37
way of thinking. So I think, unfortunately, this does continue to erode the desire to
9:42
be a civil servant, and it makes it more likely that you will be a tick box civil servant rather than what our country deserves and needs, which is people who are willing to
9:48
fight to the end to get what this country really deserves
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