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Sir Keir Starmer has hinted he could hand Andy Burnham a role in his cabinet should he win the Makerfield by-election this week. The Prime Minister said he wants the Manchester mayor to play a key part in his government despite strong suggestions the Greater Manchester Mayor will launch a campaign to run as party leader. He is strongly tipped to win in Makerfield which would secure a return to Westminster as an MP and potentially begin his route to Downing Street. To dissect the topic, Andrew Marr is joined by a host of expert guests 00:00 | Andrew's thoughts on the topic 02:58 | LBC's political editor Natasha Clark 05:13 | Baroness Angela Smith, Labour Peer and Leader of the House of Lords 14:02 | Barry Gardiner, Labour MP for Brent West Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #AndrewMarr #KeirStarmer #News #UKNews #UK #Politics #UKPolitics #Makerfield #ByElection #Election #Labour #Reform #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Evening all, and a different kind of opening to the show today
0:04
For months, not weeks, I've been a pretty consistent critic of Keir Starmer
0:09
I've said he is finished as Prime Minister. I am still absolutely outraged by the failure to properly fund British defences
0:17
For me, that by itself is resignation territory. But, as the Prime Minister continues to fight on with a tenacity I have seen in no leader since Tony Blair
0:28
it would be wrong not to lay out how, despite everything, he could still survive
0:35
Everyone at Westminster says Andy Burnham is going to win the Makerfield by-election easily
0:40
but everyone at Westminster can be wrong. Downing Street and its supporters have been dumping on Burnham
0:47
as a deluded, over-ambitious saboteur of the Labour government. But today, in a striking shift from that
0:53
the Prime Minister decided that he was, in fact, a great statesman who deserved a big job
0:58
So Andy's a great asset and yes, I want him to have a big role in government
1:04
Are you going to call him at the weekend and invite him back into your cabinet? Well, I'm sure I'll talk to Andy after the weekend. Of course I will
1:11
I've spoken to him many times in recent weeks. And when I came into politics in 2015, it was Andy Burnham's team that I joined and we work very well together
1:22
He's a huge asset. What's the thing about catching more with honey than vinegar
1:26
Personally, I am taking nothing as red. If Burnham loses, as he might, as you know from this show, because he told us yesterday
1:34
then Wes Streeting would still launch a leadership campaign. To be absolutely clear, in the circumstances when he isn't back in Westminster, you will challenge Keir Starmer
1:44
I believe we need a change of leadership. As early as next week, perhaps. And if Andy Burnham isn't back, I still believe we need that change of leadership
1:50
I would hope, by the way, Andrew, that the Prime Minister seriously reflects this weekend about whether he's genuinely the right person to lead us forward
1:59
I still think it's preferable for everyone for him to come to the right conclusion on his own terms
2:04
If he moves, I strongly suspect Al Qans would as well. And then so would a figure from the left of the party, perhaps Ed Miliband, perhaps Angela Rayner
2:14
There are plenty of female Labour MPs who'd be against any contest that didn't include a woman
2:20
Anyway, in all the wild and perhaps destructive kerfuffle of a fight between different wings of the Labour Party
2:26
it is not impossible that Keir Starmer himself comes through as the victor
2:30
Now, I think it would be a bit of a miserable stagger on, but he'd have proved his critics, including this one, wrong at least about the timing
2:39
To be clear, I don't think this is the likeliest outcome. I think it is likely that we will see Prime Minister Burnham, and perhaps very soon
2:48
But it's the job of shows like this to look at every possible twist and turn of a game in which there are always rather more snakes than ladders
2:57
So let's take this in stages and start in Makerfield, where our political editor, Natasha Clark, has been on the ground and joins us now. Natasha
3:08
Andrew, this is the area which could decide the fate of Andy Burnham and indeed the Prime Minister Keir Starmer
3:15
It might be the most consequential by-election in history, though not a single vote has yet been cast
3:21
Polls are not yet open. This area is going to be absolutely flooded with activists
3:25
I'm told teams are pumping thousands of people into this area tomorrow to try to get the vote out
3:32
And this is an interesting area, Andrew. Voted to leave, but it's been Labour since its creation in 1983
3:39
It sits between Wigan, Manchester and Liverpool. And many of the people that I've been speaking to today and last week when I was here are very much feeling left behind by those cities around them, but also by Westminster politics
3:51
So ahead of this crucial by-election, we've been speaking to some of those here in this seat alongside the pollsters' opinion
3:57
They organised two focus groups of Labour reform switchers, all those that were undecided, to try to find out what they were thinking
4:05
Here is a flavour of what they had to say. One of the big things for me is the immigration
4:09
too many people coming in and we're trying to squash too many people into areas it took me two
4:15
years to get my daughter into a dentist and I live in a village potentially labor only because I still I still hopeful that Andy Burnham might come up with his promises one day Oh no it going to be reform I going to be voting for reform
4:28
I mean, I don't think they're going to be any better than Labour or Conservative or Liberal or whoever gets in
4:35
But at this moment in time, I think, you know, you only have to walk out your door
4:39
If you can't see what's going on, you must be blind. Body up shots, graffiti, litter, homelessness, drugs, drink
4:51
You can see it. Labour's OK, but I don't think the Prime Minister's doing enough
4:57
Like that other lady said, he promises everything and he doesn't deliver
5:02
LBC's political editor Natasha Clarke there with some voters in Makerfield. Now, last night, we heard from a challenger to Keir Starmer, Wes Streeting
5:12
Today, let's hear from a loyalist cabinet minister, the leader of the Lords, Baroness Angela Smith
5:18
I assumed she would still back the prime minister, even if Andy Burnham came back to Westminster and challenged
5:25
I don't think we're even at that point yet. But I have to say, look, I think he's done a really good job
5:30
If you look across how he's regarded on the international stage, he has really put the country on the map in terms of being the reasonable, sensible voice
5:40
whether it's on Ukraine or other issues. And I have to say, just as he goes into G7 discussions and negotiations
5:47
I thought Wessie's intervention was ill-timed. Now, we may well be heading for a leadership contest
5:52
That seems to be the feel of where things are going. But I'd just like everyone to settle down
5:56
The reason all of us are here is because, and I saw all the three of the potential contenders come into Parliament
6:02
I've been there that long. They all come in. I think they're all very good and they're all friends
6:06
But I think it's time to settle down. Look, what's the reason we're here? And the reason we're here is because we have to deliver for the people of this country
6:13
Are you surprised by quite how unequivocal and determined Keir Starmer sounds about staying on come what may
6:19
No, I'm not. My experience of Keir is that he's a man of integrity
6:26
He also he set out to change the Labour Party. He's one of very few Labour leaders who have won a general election
6:33
and Fakir's driven really by a sense of duty and he will feel that sense of duty quite keenly
6:40
so I'm not surprised that he said that and I think particularly when he's out having negotiations
6:46
and discussions with world leaders he has to be clear of what his determination is
6:52
to deliver those discussions he's having so I think if he was to say this
6:55
they don't know no I'll walk away from this it's not his character to walk away from things
7:00
Yes, and in a sense, he can't say that until the moment itself has arrived
7:04
Absolutely. He shouldn't pre-empt that. He has to see what happens, and he'll respond to the moment
7:10
But I do think it's his integrity, his determination, and that sense of duty that he comes over quite strongly
7:18
I mean, the moment could be towards the end of this week. It could be very, very close now
7:22
Do you expect him to flinch at all when he is challenged as to whether he's staying on or not
7:27
I think he will make that judgment for himself. I've not seen any sign of that in him
7:31
I saw Keir on Friday. I went to Downing Street, had a meeting with him in Downing Street
7:36
on Friday afternoon. The words leadership contest were never discussed. He was very much focused on governance
7:44
Now, I'm sure he has those discussions with other people, maybe. I don't know. I'm not sure that he does
7:48
I was going to ask you, it's very interesting you say that, because obviously you attend Cabinet, and you know perfectly well there are some of your colleagues
7:53
who are kind of wondering how their careers will go under Andy Burnham or Wes or whoever it might be
7:59
And that's all under the surface. But in cabinet, are people kind of eyeing each other nervously
8:04
Or is this kind of elephant in the room that he's never looked at, never discussed
8:09
I don't get that sense. I don't get that sense in cabinet. Now, any cabinet has tensions
8:14
It has people who are best friends, people that know us slightly. There's a mix of people
8:18
And if you're going to have a cabinet that works, you want a mix of views. You don't want everyone to think the same because there's no tension, debate and discussion
8:24
So I don't get that sense. There may be people who are gaming things for themselves
8:29
I don't like to think of politics. It's politics. It's always the case. Welcome to the world
8:33
But we were in opposition for a long time and it hurt being in opposition And we have a say in the Labour Party that one day in government is worth it And it been you know one day in government is better than 10 years in opposition You achieve nothing
8:48
I remember talking to Keir, it was when he was leader of the opposition, we'd gone to Belfast on a visit and I was a former Northern Ireland minister and I'd gone with him
8:55
And we were having a chat later on in the evening and the day had gone particularly well
8:59
He had a few very good weeks and I said, are you enjoying this
9:03
And he was emphatic, no, I'm not. You can't do anything, it's so frustrating
9:07
Yes. And that is the kind of nightmare ahead. Is there a danger that if this ends up in a kind of left versus right faction fight inside the Labour Party, it takes you towards a sort of collapse and an election and actually losing power
9:22
I don't see it in those terms, I'm honest, Andrew. If there is a leadership contest, it doesn't seem to me that it is a particularly left-right
9:31
If you look at the kind of issues people are talking about, they crisscross across the Labour Party's sort of spectrum, in a sense
9:37
So what is it about? I think the local elections were hugely upsetting for people
9:44
And I think in the Labour Party, someone has lost a seat in Parliament
9:48
there are sometimes you think you prepare yourself intellectually for something so when i lost basden
9:56
in 2010 i was pretty much resigned to the fact i was going to lose my seat the polls weren't good
10:01
and i had boundary changes that were adverse boundary so i think why was i self-set on the
10:06
night i was it was gutting it's because you haven't prepared yourself emotionally and so i think we
10:11
knew that the election results were going to be bad and we understood that but emotionally when
10:16
You see people who are very good councillors and friends losing their seats. There's an emotional reaction
10:20
That has triggered it. And also, it's been hard being in government. The international scene we've seen, the economy, it's been a very difficult time
10:29
And I think we have a very inexperienced PLP. They're finding their way as well
10:33
So let's just see where we are towards the end of next week is what I'd say
10:37
You started off quite rightly saying how well he's been doing on the international stage
10:41
I think that's true. Nonetheless, clearly things have been going wrong. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here
10:45
And he said that himself. What do you think has been going wrong? I think we have to look back
10:50
And whilst I might not share everything I think was not exactly the right thing to do
10:54
We've made mistakes in government. I might not share them entirely with you, Andrew. But I think we have to look to ourselves
10:58
You're very welcome to. I know you'd love me to, wouldn't you? But we do have to look at ourselves
11:03
Where did we make mistakes? Where did we not understand we were getting something wrong
11:08
And if I'm honest, I think that there were things we could have done a bit differently to start with
11:12
Perhaps we hadn't prepared ourselves for just how bad it was economically
11:16
The things that we were, you think you know things are bad. And when you get in, you think there's things like the compensation scheme that we put in place for the post office, infected blood
11:27
They'd all been promised. None of them would have been accounted for. All required money, big money
11:31
Big money, not accounted for in any way. So I think there were, the Tories, as they left office, I think left little time bombs for us
11:37
And we weren't really prepared for all of those. So it was tough. And then you get the international situation as well
11:42
taking all of those you had a score sheet I think we've certainly been
11:47
not done as bad as the polls were shown in the local elections but people do want
11:52
something better from us and something else from us and some of them obviously want somebody else as well
11:56
what would be your message to cabinet ministers right now thinking about whether to walk
12:00
I'm never presumptuous to tell my colleagues what they should do in situations like this
12:04
I just think let's just think not just of the next week ahead
12:08
two weeks ahead let's think of the long term here the country's had a really difficult time. We've got the issues around defence, not just in terms of spending on
12:17
defence, but internally, the ascent we've seen in the country, several things like Southampton happen
12:24
we've got to think of our own security in the country as well. So I think there's a lot of
12:28
issues to think about. And I would just say, let's pause, discuss and think for the longer term
12:34
Can I ask you about just one big sort of more than policy issue? It's clear, not just from
12:39
maker field, but from lots of parts of the country, there is a new kind of politics at
12:44
large out here. It's a racialised politics. It's very, very angry about what's happened
12:48
to the country. And it's not clear to people that the Labour Party really has any kind
12:53
of response to this. Not sure that's fair, but I do think you're right. The word I would have used, you just
12:59
used was anger There a lot of anger out there Can I finally just put it to you that Wes Streeting or Andy Burnham would both be perfectly good and potentially very successful prime ministers
13:12
You're not facing a contest, if you are facing a contest, between unacceptable options as the Labour Party has had in the past
13:18
No, I think all acceptable options, and I could name several other people who I think are really good
13:23
So we don't suffer from a dearth of talent in the Labour Party. That's certainly the case
13:28
I think in the past, what we've seen is we've given people now time to grow
13:33
We've been in government for two years. During the years where Jeremy Corbyn was leader
13:38
I think a lot of people just took a step back. Some of us were out there at the front and always have been
13:43
but a lot of people took a step back. Those people are coming forward. I'm impressed by my cabinet colleagues
13:48
I really am, and I enjoy working with them. And we do have, I think, a lot of talent in the Labour Party
13:54
and it's not always recognised how good some people are. The game isn't over yet
13:58
Certainly isn't. Lady Smith, thank you very much indeed for coming in. Thanks, Andrew. Thank you
14:02
Now, listening to that is the Labour MP for Brent West, Barry Gardner
14:06
Barry, great to have you on the show. We don't want to make any assumptions, of course
14:10
but if Andy Burnham wins in Makerfield, what would you expect to happen next at Westminster
14:18
Well, look, I think if he wins, and you're right to stress the if
14:22
this is a seat which, well, in the recent local elections, in Wigan, I think, reform 115 out of the 16 council seats. So it's taken real guts, real courage to
14:34
stand here and do what he's doing. But if, on the assumption that tomorrow is successful and that
14:42
he does become the Member of Parliament for Makerfield, then I imagine that there will have
14:50
to be a period of settling down. I don't think there'll be... You mentioned in your conversation
14:56
with Angela that things could happen at the end of this week. I don't think so. I think
15:01
probably the end of next week is much more likely when there's been a chance to have
15:07
discussions between Andy and Keir. I didn't think it was funny, actually, I must say that
15:13
Keir said that he would offer Andy a place in his cabinet
15:18
except for his own, of course. Yes, indeed, indeed. What would it..
15:24
I imagine it'll take time for Keir to assess just what this means and to see whether he has sufficient support
15:37
to stay credibly in the race. What does it do to the party and the government, do you think
15:43
decides to fight and decides to stick it out. And we then get possibly quite a multi-sided
15:49
possibly quite long drawn out struggle for the leadership. But look, I don't think that's in the country's interest to have a long drawn out struggle
15:59
We know that, yes, people are dissatisfied with the pace of change that government has brought in
16:06
And I think they're hungry to see that stepped up. And that really is the impetus behind having
16:13
a new leader in place. But I do think that there will be, it's important that every shade of the
16:24
party is able to feel that they've had their say. A coronation is not necessarily a good thing. And
16:34
I think you just look and see what the Conservatives did when they had coronations. It wasn't the best
16:40
result. It wasn't. Barry Gardner, thank you very, very much for talking to me tonight
16:45
Now, here is the full list of the candidates in the Makerfield by-election. Jake Austin
16:50
for the Liberal Democrats. Count Binface for the Count Binface Party. Andy Burnham, representing
16:56
Labour and the Cooperative Party. Dan Clark for the Libertarian Party. John Dyer
17:02
Independent. Ed Gemmell, Climate Party. Paul Gould, Independent. Howling Lord Hope, the official monster-raving
17:10
Looney Party, Rob Kenyon for Reform UK, Rob Ponol, Independent, Rebecca Shepard, Restore Britain
17:18
Sarah Wakefield, the Green Party, Peter Ward for Rejoin EU and Michael Winstanley for the
17:24
Conservative and Unionist Party
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