Up next in 10
Andrew Marr is joined by a host of guests to discuss the latest going-ons with the Labour Party off the back of a major speech from Mayor of Manchester, Andy Burnham. 03:18 | Jim O'Neill, Baron O'Neill of Gatley, Former Chief Economist at Goldman Sachs, Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (2016-17) and advisor to Rachel Reeves when the Labour Party were in Opposition. 11:46 | Alex Sobel, British Labour and Co-operative MP for Leeds Central and Headingley. 16:46 | Jake Richards, Justice Minister and MP for Rother Valley. Keir Starmer vows to back Labour Makerfield by-election choice 100% – whoever they are. Applications for Labour’s Makerfield candidacy close on Monday, and the party’s ruling National Executive Committee will endorse a candidate on Thursday. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #AndrewMarr #Labour #Politics #UKNews #UKPolitics #News #UK #Opinion #Debate #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Many people are very angry with British politics at the moment
0:03
All this talk of cliques and coups and careerism is frankly disgusting to those just trying to get through the week OK
0:11
But let me make a counter-argument tonight. Because the crisis in Number 10
0:17
including the resignation of West Streeting last week, was not made in Westminster
0:22
It was driven democratically by the votes of millions of people up and down the country who expressed their anger
0:28
by putting their crosses against anti-Labour candidates. What then happened was the reaction by Labour politicians to that
0:37
And now in Makerfield we have the next episode. No by-election in British history has been as important as this one
0:44
If Andy Burnham wins it, he will transform the political mood as well probably as propelling himself into the Premiership
0:51
On the numbers we can see from earlier in the month, Makerfield should go easily to reform
0:57
If Burnham can stop that, offering a more convincing version of social democracy
1:01
he cancels the general impression that Nigel Farage is marching inexorably to power at the next election
1:09
But if he loses, there will be absolute chaos at Westminster, and the further decline of Labour as a national party will be accelerated
1:18
It really is all or nothing. It really is a massive roll of the dice
1:23
But again, let us celebrate the fact that the choice will not be in the hands of Westminster bag carriers or party apparatchiks or MPs or pollsters or journalists, but in the hands of ordinary voters
1:38
Here is Andy Burnham this afternoon. Do you want Makerfield and the North to stay on the same path it's been for the last 40 years
1:47
Or do you want a new path which brings the country back together and makes it work for everyone
1:53
I know why I'm standing. I know what I'm offering. I know what my party has offered in the past has simply not been good enough
2:01
The loss of faith of voters across the North, so many of whom once saw us as their natural party, is our fault and nobody else's
2:10
I want to help fix that and I hope people will give me the chance to make that case
2:16
And what in all of this of the Prime Minister himself? He said today he's giving 100% support in the by-election
2:23
and he will not set a timetable for his own departure. Well, maybe that will hold, maybe it won't
2:30
Rather than simply lurking in Downing Street waiting for events to unfold
2:34
perhaps Keir Starmer ought to get ahead of them. It has been suggested that he lists his immediate priorities, getting the Hillsborough Law, say
2:43
and delivering the investment he's promised in defence, striking a new agreement at the European Summit in the summer
2:49
Now, if he announced his departure but said he needed to do those things first as his legacy
2:55
I think the Parliamentary Labour Party would rally behind him and he could even leave on a bit of a high
3:01
It's just a thought. Anyway, let's hear first from Lord Jim O'Neill
3:06
a former Conservative minister who was heavily involved in the Northern Powerhouse experiment
3:10
What did he make of what Andy Burnham said about 40 years of neoliberalism
3:15
and what had happened to the North and the Midlands of England? I like some of it, especially the idea that more powers
3:25
perhaps significant more powers, should be devolved to key places, especially given the success of Greater Manchester
3:33
which, as I'm sure you know and some of your audience know, I've been pretty involved in for the best part of the past 15 years
3:39
and it's one of the few notable successes of this millennium today in the country
3:46
So why not try to repeat it elsewhere, because it might make a big difference to the whole nation
3:52
Absolutely. When you were involved in Northern Powerhouse, of course, Manchester was one of the cities you were concentrating on
3:58
Leeds, where Andy Byrne was speaking today, was another one. Do you think the basic proposition
4:03
that the government is badly run from London is true? Yes and no. I think in certain areas
4:11
the idea that a bunch of people in Whitehall, however well-intentioned, and of course sometimes
4:18
not deliberately, their intentions aren't actually very good, but even if they are
4:24
the idea that the solution for deep challenges in these places that have had, according to Andy
4:31
40 years worth of decline, in some cases probably double that. It's just wrong
4:38
If you think of Rochdale or Reading, the sort of skills requirement, for example
4:46
or the educational challenges are very different. Not that I know Reading very well, but I'm pretty sure they are
4:53
And that's true all around the country. So I have been, ever since the start of the formation of the Northern Powerhouse Partnership
5:01
a big advocate for complete devolution of adult skills, for example. I think we can't solve aspects of the deep-rooted educational challenges
5:10
which link with many other social challenges, unless we treat local places with the importance that their uniqueness and nature of challenges have
5:21
and it's kind of pretty obvious to me that that should happen
5:25
it also the case as Andy has demonstrated albeit a lot of it inherited from the people before him but he taken it to another level If you got the right accountable local leadership and they prepared to be accountable and really ambitious
5:42
you can make a big difference, as we've seen with Greater Manchester. You said at the beginning you liked some of it, you didn't like other bits so much
5:48
Those are the bits you liked. What are the bits you didn't like? I think this idea that we can bring everything back into government control without having a clear plan of quite why that would necessarily result in better outcomes than I remember as a very young person they did in those days
6:09
And here's the crucial part, especially at a time when our fiscal position is so stretched, let's call it, to put it mildly, needs to be thought about more carefully
6:24
I'd also like to see, Andy, given the sort of boldness that he's expressing
6:29
and the sort of daring nature of his bid, be prepared to lead a major political party
6:36
on tackling some of the sacred cows that no party appears to ever want to go anywhere near
6:43
because they're so fearful of tomorrow's political consequence without focusing on how necessary
6:48
and how good they would be for the future of the UK. So, Jim, are you talking about the bloated welfare budget, particularly for younger people with mental health problems
6:59
Are you talking about the triple lock on pensions? I'm talking about both those things are more
7:04
I mean, but if you connect the two of them together, I just checked this for something I'm planning to write a couple of days ago
7:09
I think it's the case today that nearly 75 percent of pensioners own their houses outright
7:17
and yet they are protected in a way that I don't think was ever the original intention via the triple lock
7:25
And this is at a time where more and more young people cannot dream of buying their own house
7:31
and yet we're expecting them to pay ever more taxes for the people that can and are in retirement
7:39
And it's extremely unfair and we can't afford it. And if I speak to any political advisor or somebody in any major party, everybody agrees, but they don't ever say it or do it because they think it's going to hurt them in some kind of, you know, short term opinion poll
7:56
Same with the scale of misallocation of welfare payments. Frankly, the same with the never-ending rise in spending as a share of GDP on health
8:08
that so many people just believe is part of the British heritage
8:13
And it's kind of crazy. When I was leaving university, we spent as much on education as a share of GDP as we did on health
8:21
Today, it's three times more on health and education. That is extraordinary
8:24
And to an economist, it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Overall message, therefore, on Burnham, perhaps, like the radicalism, but you could go a lot further
8:34
Yes, I do. Because this is what the country is crying out for
8:39
And, you know, I know Andy, obviously, pretty well, as a result of everything that's gone on
8:44
involving my involvement with Manchester and his leadership. And Andy is a bold person
8:50
And I think the people that are supporting him should encourage him to be bolder because the country needs it
8:55
The same should be true for any other political party rather than just hiding behind the seemingly never ending games that sort of go on around Whitehall and Westminster
9:06
Jim, cheeky question. You're a conservative minister. You're a crossbench peer these days
9:10
If you were a voter in Makerfield, would you put your cross against Andy Burnham's name
9:15
I can't really answer that as a crossbencher because it might be misinterpreted the wrong way
9:20
I am an independent crossbencher and I have no political affiliation. That said, I think Andy is bringing an energy
9:30
and importantly it comes from something that's got some vibrancy, whereas the sort of influence that's affecting so many of our aspirational political leaders
9:40
is just coming out of this sort of drudgery and sort of game
9:45
that seems to be endlessly going around, certainly ever since the Brexit vote
9:50
and probably ever since the financial crisis. And we need some new energy
9:54
And the bit that, obviously, emphasizing again, I love about where Andy's coming from
10:00
is this whole idea of giving regions more powers. I mean, you look at other really important places in the world
10:07
it's kind of commonplace, whether it's Germany, whether it's the United States, or whether it's China
10:12
And yet we have this staggeringly centralized, ran country, which certainly isn't benefiting many of the regions
10:19
that have faced these endless multi-decade challenges. That's absolutely right. So you can't give them your vote for reasons you've explained
10:25
but you could be standing on the other side of the hedge, as it were, looking over with a thumbs up, maybe
10:30
I want to see a change. I want to see the mood and I want to see the way that the whole sort of interplay
10:38
between the voting public and all the political parties, including reform, frankly
10:45
don't seem to be wanting to touch anything of substance and just pretend that they can keep on giving more promises
10:52
which is just not in the slightest bit sustainable. And as we're seeing warning signs of
10:57
the markets will rip any of them to pieces if they get near power Absolutely right Jim O Lord O thank you very very much for talking to me tonight My pleasure Thanks for having me on Andrew And let hear now from a Labour backbencher who spent some time in Makerfield in recent days
11:13
as the party gears up for one of the most consequential by-elections in history. Alex
11:18
Sobel, the MP for Leeds Central and heading the Alex, thanks for joining us. A big question in
11:24
front of Andy Burnham tonight, it seems to me, is he has just said that he sticks by the fiscal
11:28
rules. And by the way, the bond markets and the pound have both reacted positively to that
11:34
statement. But he also is very, very keen on more state intervention, more nationalisation
11:39
taking more of the economy into state ownership. And I just put it to you, those two things are
11:44
absolutely incompatible. Well, I say, first of all, is we're a time of real global instability
11:51
and certainty. If you just look at the Middle East, for instance, but not just the Middle East
11:56
the Russia-Ukraine war, there's a whole range of international issues. The cost of living
12:03
interest rates, the impacts on people's lives are incredible. If at this stage there was a movement
12:11
away from fiscal rules, it would have a negative effect on people on interest rates. So that's
12:16
what's important. So Alex, sorry to interrupt, but therefore don't make promises you can't fund
12:23
Well, what I'd say is there is also a real case that people are paying more and more for services, basic services that in previous times were run by the state
12:35
We could use childcare as an example. And the states had to step in and provide free childcare
12:43
But the costs are escalating for the state. While if they were provided in-house by local authorities, those costs would be much less
12:51
So there are savings to be made if the state in substances and cooperative mutual solutions are brought in rather than private sector
13:00
So there is something here. The Manchester model points to some of that
13:05
Andy was obviously in Manchester limited in what he could do. But, you know, in Parliament, there's a different canvas
13:11
There is. But nonetheless, this basic proposition to the voters, we are going to look after you better as politicians, doesn't sit easily in a situation where you can't raise taxes
13:23
He's ruled out more borrowing. You know, how is that going to work? Well, I mean, there are things we can we can absolutely do
13:33
Jim O'Neill was really interesting. I don't like arguing Jim O'Neill because he's got a lot more experience than me in these matters
13:38
But there are more radical solutions which can bring forward money for services
13:48
But also, the other big thing is capital infrastructure. And capital infrastructure investment does sit outside the sort of narrow fiscal rules
13:57
which is what has allowed this Labour government to invest much more infrastructure than the previous Conservative government
14:04
All right. Another couple of phrases that struck me from what he was saying was he talked about the bloated central state and the undernourished local authorities around the country
14:15
And that is, on the face of it again, absolutely right. But it leads to the question, OK, which bits of the bloated central state would you get rid of
14:23
Well, my view is local authorities can and have learnt in the last 15 years to run really good services on a fairly minimal income
14:33
and I don't think central government has learned that same lesson. So there are definitely things that can be offered much more efficiently by councils and by providing authorities
14:46
Just give me some examples, Alex, if you can. Well, look, I'm an MP in Leeds. I'm not from Greater Manchester
14:53
but Leeds runs its own nurseries, runs its own children's centres. We have our own plant nursery, which sells, which is the biggest provider of trees in the city
15:05
You know, so we've learned to deliver services and generate revenues. If you look at national government, you can't find equivalents
15:15
National government is very internally facing, while local authorities have learned much more to be outwardly facing
15:21
OK, Alex, as I said at the beginning, you've been in maker field quite a bit
15:25
Looking at the numbers from the local elections, this is a very, very hard by-election for Andy Burnham to win
15:31
What is your impression from the doorstep? Well, I don't want to presuppose our members on Thursday who are selecting a candidate
15:38
Very good point. Very good point. Yes. So maybe ask me the specifics on Friday
15:43
But it is a tough election. Nobody's pretending it's not. on the doorstep people i wasn't that people were raising with me the fact that they had not voted
15:55
labor in the council elections they viewed this differently and then they also raised me the
16:01
prospect of andy burnham being the candidate one woman say oh i see him running around haydock park
16:07
which is just on the edge of the constitution he's got that local thing alex yeah one final
16:13
question briefly. If he wins this and returns to the House of Commons, is it your expectation that
16:19
he would immediately challenge Keir Starmer for the leadership? It's not my expectation. I expect
16:25
that he would come back and potentially serve in the government, try and help us turn this
16:30
government around And if then that didn work or somebody else and I think there may be somebody else who intending to trigger a leadership election triggered one then that a different scenario Okay we back to after you Claude I love to know who Claude is going to be but for the moment Alex Sobel thank you very
16:44
much indeed. Back to our main story now with Jake Richards, one of the newer MPs now serving as a
16:50
minister in the Justice Department. His constituency is Rother Valley, which shares some, not all, of
16:56
the Makerfield Markles. Other side of the Pennines, of course, but, you know, the same kind of industrial
17:01
history. And I'm just wondering what you made of Andy Burnham's call for more power for the north
17:06
more power outside London to go to the rest of the country. Yeah, look, I think that there was a lot in what Andy Burnham said over the weekend that
17:13
my constituents and myself heard and liked. Of course, we need to have much more infrastructure
17:20
in the north of England. We need to rebalance the economy away from the south-eastern London to
17:25
the north in general, but this government's doing quite a lot of that
17:30
You know, you talk about Northern Rail, that we've invested billions of pounds
17:34
for a long-term infrastructure. We are bringing buses back into public control, which is a massive part of what's needed
17:40
in Makerfield and in my constituency. So we're doing a lot of that, but there's a call for more
17:44
I get that. There is a call for more. We had that 10 days ago, and we need to get on with it. And it's really a little bit about, fundamentally about power and the sense that
17:52
you know, there is too much in the south, there is too much in London, and Westminster are not enough in the rest of the country
17:58
Yeah, and I think there's something in that. You know, you look back, we're almost 10 years ago
18:02
since the Brexit referendum and that slogan, let's take back control. There still is an eagerness in our country to take back control
18:09
People don't feel they have agency in their life. They don't feel that they're getting on in life
18:13
that their families are secure and safe and that the next generation is going to do better than the last
18:18
Look, I don't think this is news. 10 days ago, we had devastating election results
18:22
So, of course, again, we're looking at the challenges we face as a country, the challenges we face as a Labour government and indeed a Labour movement
18:28
I'd wish that debate and that conversation could have happened in more calmer context
18:34
perhaps naively. But we are where we are. That debate is happening. But it's also quite right
18:39
whilst that happens, it naturally happens that we get on with the business of government. And
18:43
look, today we have really good economic news. We have. We've published this important plan for
18:47
youth justice. So there's business to be done. Jake, in your waters, genuinely and honestly
18:53
do you think that Keir Starmer should lead the Labour Party into the next election
18:58
I think Keir Starmer will lead the Labour Party into the next election. Should, should
19:01
Yes, because, listen, Andrew, we were elected two years ago. We've got three years till the next general election
19:07
There's a lot more to do. But I remember in 2019 when Keir Starmer became leader of the Labour Party
19:13
in the early months of 2020, people thought this guy's got no chance next time. I remember in 2021 when he lost in Hartlepool, people said he had got no chance
19:20
Don't underestimate Keir Starmer. I take all that, but governing is different
19:24
And fundamental things have gone wrong over the past two years. You've just acknowledged that
19:29
What do you see in Keir Starman that's really going to change in the two or three years ahead
19:33
Just a couple of things on that. I think you're right that there is a reflection. And it's a natural when you have devastating results, especially in our heartlands, in Barnsley, in Wakefield, in the North East, like we had 10 days ago
19:45
we've got to look at what has gone wrong up to this point and also how we can change that over
19:50
the next three years to make sure we defeat Nigel Farage. Now, that is not moving pieces on a chess
19:54
board. That is not just about the guy or the woman at the top of the party. But it is about that as
19:59
well. Yeah, that's in the conversation. And Keir Starmer, if he was sitting here, would be the first
20:03
one to say that is. But he's come out. He said, look, we need to learn. We need to move faster
20:08
We need to think about the scale and the nature of the change that we're delivering. And I think
20:12
that we now need to get behind him and try and do that. What do you make of Wes treating
20:18
I've known Wes for a long time. I think he's an incredibly talented politician
20:22
a brilliant communicator. He was a brilliant health secretary. And actually in two years, we've been bringing down
20:27
waiting lists and Wes has been leading the charge. You know, we get a WhatsApp update on an almost weekly basis
20:32
as Labour MPs about the great work he's done in NHS. And, you know, he's an exceptional communicator
20:37
and a brilliant politician. And there's absolutely zero doubt that he will play a leading role in the Labour movement for decades to come
20:42
Is he somebody you would like to see one day as leading your party? Well, I'm not going to get into speculations
20:48
but one day who might be leader, because... You know, there's lots of..
20:51
You get very warm and co-e-do. But, Andrew, there's lots of people who one day could lead the Labour Party
20:57
Bridget Phillipson is brilliant. You know, she's fantastic. We need a female leader of the Labour Party, by the way
21:02
And that's a real problem for us, that we haven't had that. And it's right that we look at that
21:07
But, look, Wes is obviously an exceptional politician, and he's got a bright future to play
21:11
I wish he was doing that in the government, but I've got no doubt that he'll be back
21:16
Over the next six weeks, he is going to be laying out, as it were, his perspectives, his ysis of what's gone wrong, the policies that need to change
21:24
How will you be regarding that as a helpful and useful part of the conversation, something that you're going to focus on
21:29
Well, I think it's absolutely right that key people in the Labour Party are offering their ysis as to how we turn this around
21:35
because we've got to turn it around to defeat Nigel Farage and reform in the next general election
21:39
Now, I'd wished that WES and others perhaps could have done that within government, but that hasn't happened
21:45
We are where we are. They will no doubt contribute to that debate. And I will be listening and joining in that debate for my role in government
21:52
But most importantly, we've got to deliver. And that's what I've been doing today in the justice brief where I've been setting out generational
21:59
transformational change for how we deal with our young people in the criminal justice system that, in my view, will transform people's lives
22:07
Very important subject indeed. Jake Richards, thank you so much for coming in
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