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Keir Starmer has faced his toughest day of the Labour rebellion yet, prompted by wipeout local election results. Ministers Jess Phillips, Alex Davies-Jones, Miatta Fahnbulleh and Zubir Ahmed all announced their departure from Government today - but more than 100 backbenchers have called on Starmer to stay. Ben Kentish is joined by Joe Twyman, co-founder of Deltapoll, to discuss what has gone so wrong for Labour in the two years since their general election triumph, and what they can do to regain the confidence of the electorate. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #benkentish #starmer #ukpolitics #labour #election #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
We talk a lot in politics, don't we, about personalities and about policies, both of which clearly matter a lot
0:06
But an underrated phenomenon when it comes to Westminster politics is that of momentum
0:13
Politicians tend to go with the crowd. They like to move as a herd
0:18
And this morning, the Labour flock was very much moving against Keir Starmer
0:24
More than 80 MPs had publicly called for him to go. Four government ministers through the course of today resigned their positions, saying the same about their party leader
0:34
And the rebellion was gathering place. In the last few hours, though, it has very clearly and visibly slowed
0:43
Against all the odds and against the consensus that was very much in place in Westminster this morning
0:49
Keir Starmer has ended the day as Prime Minister without having to announce any timetable whatsoever
0:54
for relinquishing that post. He stood his ground, he faced down his rivals
0:59
and he told them at the Cabinet meeting this morning, effectively, and I'm sure he didn't use these words
1:04
but he might as well have done, to put up or to shut up. And for now, at least, they seem to be doing the latter
1:10
His Cabinet critics this evening keep in very quiet indeed. That said, the Prime Minister is still clinging to power
1:18
by the thinnest of threats. Tomorrow morning, he will hold showdown talks
1:23
with one of the contenders for his job, West Streeting, the health secretary
1:28
a meeting that could well be a precursor to Streeting quitting as health secretary
1:33
and announcing his desire to run to succeed Keir Starmer. And if that happens, the floodgates would open
1:40
Angela Rayner might well throw her hat in the ring, Ed Miliband too, and frankly, anybody else
1:45
in Westminster politics, in the Labour Party, who fancies a crack at being Prime Minister
1:50
Now, I've got to say, I'm pretty surprised that as we speak together tonight
1:54
the Prime Minister has made it this far. I didn't think we would be in a position
2:00
where he'd manage to weather the storm and get through the day without making concessions about his own future
2:06
And frankly, I don't think it reflects pretty very well on his challenges, that none of them have had the balls
2:12
the courage, the backbone to actually put their money where their mouth is
2:17
and stand up for what they believe in and put their head above the parapet. They haven't been
2:22
able to do that. They are happy, it seems, to spout off anonymously to Westminster journalists
2:27
and actually have the courage of their conviction. So we have, for example, the rather sorry prospect
2:32
of Shabana Mahmood team briefing journalists yesterday that she had told Starmer he needed to step down only for those same advisers to tell the very same journalist today that she wouldn be resigning In other words we have a Home Secretary who thinks the Prime Minister shouldn be in post
2:48
but is perfectly happy to carry on working for him when he is
2:52
How is that consistent? Is that courage? Is that conviction? You tell me
2:57
But still, even if he's weathered the immediate storm, the conclusion that we have to draw
3:01
is that Starmer's days in Downing Street are numbered. It might not happen tomorrow
3:06
He might not even make it. He might even make it through the week. But when you have suffered a loss of credibility and authority
3:12
and the confidence of your colleagues too, in the way that he has this week
3:17
that is not recoverable. That is not sustainable. And that's why increasingly, I think
3:23
attention turning tonight to where Labour goes next. Now, there's a question about personnel
3:29
Who is the best person to lead it? But there's a more fundamental question behind that, isn't there
3:34
about the direction the party should take. What it needs to do to win back the country's support
3:40
and win back your support. Does it need to lurch leftwards? Start re-embracing more traditional Labour values and policies
3:48
Does it need to do the opposite? Does it need to take on Nigel Farage by being more like him
3:52
by getting even tougher on issues like illegal migration? That's what I want to talk about this hour
3:58
What is it that you think Labour needs to do to win back your support and the support of millions of other people
4:05
that it's lost since the general election? What direction should Labour take if and when
4:12
and I think it is very much a when right now, Keir Starmer stands down as Prime Minister
4:19
And I guess the question that stems from that, who do you think is best placed to implement that
4:24
Is it a West Treaty? Is it an Andy Burnham? Is it an Angela Rayner? Is it somebody else
4:28
Do you want to see Prime Minister Ed Miliband? Maybe you do. Love to hear from you if you have to suspect
4:33
Not many people do, but maybe you're one of the few that does. 0345 6060 973 is the number to call
4:39
What direction should Labour go in when Keir Starmer eventually steps down as Prime Minister
4:46
And who would be best placed, in your view, to take the party in that direction
4:52
Let me know your thoughts on that number, 0345 6060 973. You can WhatsApp the main number or text me on 84850
4:59
let me know your thoughts. What does Labour need to do to win back your support? Maybe more to the
5:05
point, what direction does it need to go in, in order to do that? Let's talk about it all with
5:10
Joe Twyman, who is co-founder of DeltaPoll. Joe, very good evening to you. I guess the obvious
5:15
place to start before we turn to where Labour goes next is how did it get itself in such a mess in the first place What gone so wrong over the last two years do you think Well I think ultimately it comes down to promises
5:28
promises that were made during the election and the inability of the government, at least so far
5:34
to be perceived to have delivered on those promises. We heard a lot about the Ming Vars strategy
5:40
this idea that Keir Starmer was very gently holding this Ming Vars of policies
5:47
and getting them over the line to the election. In doing that, he achieved a large majority
5:53
but on a very small, relatively speaking, share of the vote. A very broad, very narrow, but not particularly deep coalition of voters
6:02
uniting various different groups. But really, from the outset, problems started to occur
6:10
whether it was with communications or just the inability to get the right policies at the right time
6:16
will respond to events that were going on. And though he's done well in public opinion terms when it comes to things like Iran, crucially
6:24
on the most important subject facing this country, the economy and the cost of living
6:28
he and his government have consistently underperformed. And I think that a lot can be forgiven if we do have economic growth, but in the absence
6:39
of that in an economy that appears to be, for many people, teetering along, it's far
6:44
more difficult. The problem they face, Joe, whoever leads the Labour Party, don't they, is that they are leaking and hemorrhaging support to reform on the right, but also to the Greens and the Liberal Democrats on the left
6:55
So this debate that they're having about do we need to be more left wing? Do we need to be more right wing? What do we need to be
7:00
I mean, there's not a simple answer to that, is there? Well, in a sense, no, you're right, there isn't
7:05
If you look at the elections last week and you look at areas like London or Birmingham or Newcastle
7:11
you can see a party that is, as you say, losing to reform and the Greens
7:15
but also losing to the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats, which raises the question, OK, what ideological position, what series of policies
7:23
could the government come up with that would appeal to those four groups
7:27
And of course, the answer is there are no policies, generally speaking
7:31
that will appeal to all those groups. But actually, perhaps a more sensible way to look at it in terms of delivery rather than specific policies
7:40
Because what most people in this country want is a growing economy, an NHS that works, jobs for as many people as possible, and so on and so forth
7:51
We want our education system to prepare children appropriately. We want tax that fair and administered effectively And so a focus on delivery and actually achieving in terms of public perception actually achieving a change that was promised at the election could be the answer to Labour
8:12
problems, at least partly. The difficulty is, as I say, you have to convince people. People's
8:17
perceptions have to change. And I think the big question facing the Labour Party, not just now
8:23
but it's been facing it for months and may indeed continue to face it
8:27
is whether Keir Starmer is the person to change the perceptions of the voting public
8:34
Because last week's election results suggest that he has a long way to go until he's achieved that
8:41
And in terms of the sort of personnel joke, what do the polls tell us about who's best placed to sort of give Labour the best chance of maintaining power at the next election
8:50
Is it a streeting? Is it a burnham? Is it somebody else? Well, this is one of those questions that you can ask people in polls
8:56
but you have to be really careful about how you yse the results. You can ask, for instance, if this person were Labour leader rather than Keir Starmer
9:04
how would you vote? But actually, most people don't think about that in terms of what policies it would mean
9:09
because nobody really knows what the change in policies would be. So instead, you project your hopes and your fears onto this new person
9:16
And what you're really measuring is whether people like Keir Starmer or not. And we know from the polls that, historically speaking, he is very poor in his personal ratings
9:27
And so you can also ask, well, what about the different candidates? Are they popular? Are they unpopular? Are they doing a good job or a bad job
9:33
And yes, people think that, for instance, Andy Burnham, of the lot of Andy Burnham, West Streeting and Angela Rayner
9:42
it's Andy Burnham that's probably the most popular. but actually the overriding feeling that most people have is that they don't know the average
9:51
person in the street and the 50 of people less engaged in the average person in the street
9:55
couldn't pick Andy Burnham up from a lineup or if they cost them in that street and so you could
10:02
see that as a positive you could say okay well we can uh we can take the new leader and it can be a
10:07
clean slate and they can win over those people who don't know and yes that might happen but the
10:12
alternative might happen as well. People might like these people less as they get to know them
10:17
better. And so given that none of them are particularly well known it's very difficult
10:22
to make a judgment about who would actually be best. But that's just on the public opinion side
10:29
On the operational side if you like, West Streeting has a majority of just over 300 in his constituency
10:34
That's a big problem. Angela Rayner has continuing issues with tax investigations. That's a problem
10:40
and only Burnham doesn't have a seat at all. That's an enormous problem
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