Up next in 10
Former PM Tony Blair has launched scathing attack on Labour as he warns the party is 'playing with Britain's future'. Sir Tony said Labour is “lacking a project” and was “playing with the future of the country” in a 5,700-word essay which was published on Tuesday. James O'Brien and Nick Ferrari hear from LBC callers on the subject. 00:00 | Claire from York has voted for Blair in the past but believes he's now trying to 'overwrite his humiliating legacy' concerning the Iraq war. 05:00 | Shaun from Matfield is all praise for Blair, and thinks the current government need to follow in his footsteps. 07:29 | Phil from Wesminster and James discuss the idea of megalomania with Blair: 'he always thinks he's right!' 11:50 | Alison in Skelmersdale takes everything Blair says 'with a pinch of salt'. 13:39 | Finn from Epsom thinks Blair's report has 'a lot of valid points', as he gets into it with James over the special relationship. 18:31 | Matt from Hampstead isn't much of a Blairite, but thinks he's 'spot on'. 20:08 | Phil from Oxford says he was a Blair fan with a ' big F', but it's now shrinking... 23:41 | Dave from Thetford says Blair was a 'hero' and has seen a difference in his life from him being PM, but isn't impressed with him now. 26:35 | Nick reads out caller Nicola from Tunbridge Wells' text Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #JamesOBrien #NickFerrari #TonyBlair #Labour #KeirStarmer #Labour #UK #News #Politics #UKNews #UKPolitics #Debate #Opinion #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
What's happened to Tony Blair
0:02
James, thank you for taking my call. I'm just pinging off the walls this morning
0:06
I'm the same age as you. I voted for Tony Blair twice
0:10
You know, I was really impressed by him. But I am so angry today that I'm just absolutely beside myself
0:17
And I really believe this is my true... I really believe this to be true
0:22
that Tony Blair, in every intervention he makes, is trying to rewrite the script of his humiliating legacy
0:30
on Iraq. And I think he subconsciously wants another Labour leader to make the same mistake
0:36
as him by following the US into war, just so that he is not the only one and he doesn't
0:41
feel so bad about himself anymore. His ego is so inflated, just like Trump's, he can't
0:46
bear that feeling of humiliation. And I think he's just shown how weak and feeble an ego
0:53
he has, just like Trump. And I heard Nick Robinson say today on the BBC
1:01
that Blair's words hold the most weight in the Labour Party and that people listen to him
1:08
And I just cannot think of anyone other than Reform Party that would be listening to him right now
1:16
I mean, I'm a centrist and I'm not listening to him. The sure as hell the left aren't listening to him
1:21
And I think reform will be very proud of him right now. And, I mean, as for, you know, we talked about welfare cuts and, you know, it was bad to have minimum wage
1:33
Like, can you have any idea of what it's like to survive on benefits
1:39
And actually, I think Labour have a very good policy on long-term change on welfare
1:45
And that is not to be cruel and populist and damaging by suddenly cutting them, as Tony Blair is suggesting
1:52
What Labour are suggesting are giving apprenticeships to kids, you know, a youth guarantee scheme, vocational courses, mental health in schools
2:02
so that they don't fall through the cracks and become the future recipients of welfare
2:08
That is a responsible, holistic way of going forward with benefits. And I really take objection to this constant refrain that Labour aren't on the right course or haven't done anything
2:24
They've done so many policies in the last two years, but they take a while to firstly go through legislation and then for us to feel the effects of those policies
2:35
And they're only just beginning. And already we're seeing a reduction in immigration
2:39
A massive reduction in immigration, which is going to be very costly for the country
2:46
but we don't talk about that. Well, we're still growing, though. I mean, that's the thing
2:50
Don't talk about the consequences. I want you to stop pinging for a moment. Can you stop pinging just for a second
2:54
Sorry, I know I'm a sound. If my dad is listening now
3:00
he will remember on the first day that Tony Blair got... Stop pinging
3:04
Sorry, on the first day... Can I just say this? Yeah, ping away. On the first day that Tony Blair..
3:10
Well, that's a Freudian slip. On the first day that Starmer got elected
3:17
Tony Blair was all over the media, and he was for days
3:20
And I remember texting my dad saying, I think Tony Blair thinks he's just been re-elected as leader
3:26
Do you know, I mean, you've said a lot of words. Sorry
3:30
No, I love it. It's fantastic. And proper passion as well. I don't mean that in a patronising sense
3:34
It's nice to hear what politics means in a world where it's easy to forget
3:40
But the word that's jumped out at me actually was subconscious. Because you're doing a kind of amateur psychology, aren't we
3:46
Maybe you're a professional psychologist. But that idea that he is haunted by..
3:51
I mean, look, either he is taking notes from Larry Ellison and just saying whatever it is that the billionaire
3:56
who funds his entire institute wants him to say. I'm not quite cynical enough to swallow that
4:01
I think it's deeper than that. Yeah, I think it's deeper than that. I think it's deeper than that. He's attacking the workers' rights bill, he's attacking net zero
4:08
and he is, I think, crucially, signing up to the idea that welfare incentivises people not to work
4:14
for which there is zero evidence. And like I said... Well, apart from, you know, the person that will ring in on other shows
4:23
and occasionally on this one, always welcome, to tell me that they know someone who knows someone
4:27
who definitely is swinging the lead on the welfare and therefore everybody on it must be a con man or woman
4:32
And the way to reduce welfare is to get people when they're young
4:37
and give them hope and inspiration and give them possibilities, not punitively cutting it on people
4:44
That's another massive psychological change in seeing the role of government to be a stepping stone
4:51
to helping people, to seeing the role of government to hurt, which is the mood music of modern politics
5:00
Your view down the years of Tony Blair as someone who came out of the forces
5:04
put together a business, a very successful business, were you helped or hindered by Tony Blair
5:08
Good morning. Good morning to you and you're listening, Nick. Very much helped by Tony Blair because he threw away socialism
5:13
He didn't want nothing to do with old school socialism. And what he did in 97 was carry on what John Major and Ken Clarke left off of the economy
5:21
He kept taxes low, he reduced corporation tax on the basic rate, and kept the enterprise allowance scheme, where I grew my business from
5:28
So he's very pro-business, but he underpinning with social justice. Very much One Nation's conservatism
5:34
And that's what wins elections, by the way. What you see now is frustration from Blair. And they haven't carried on what he started
5:39
And Peter Bounsel must be mentioned as well, to be fair. They've both got it
5:44
In what way do you want to bring the former ambassador in? He was business secretary under Blair
5:48
And business liked him. Yeah. Because he kept that. I think it emanates from how Macmillan One Nation approached it
5:55
It caught politics when it grew up in the First World War. everybody followed him since that process
5:59
and got elected Cameron Clegg got elected and Mary James Clark it works, One Nation Conservatism
6:07
and Blair Mandel hasn't got it It's often said that Tony Blair is the best Prime Minister
6:11
the Conservatives never had, Sean Thatcher endorsed Blair he wasn't right wing
6:17
he was moderately conservative but that's where people sit in their vaults I think
6:21
and Starmer's the opposite he was a core minister to the core very left wing, very cold faced
6:26
He's not who we are. When he took away the heating grounds and pensioners when he first came in
6:30
it was horrific to watch him say that to people, knowing he was trodering freebies from a
6:34
multilatered capitalist at the same time. Starmer is not who we are now. And by the way
6:38
neither is Farad and the hard right either We don sit in far right far left politics We sit in the middle and that what gets elected And Blair got it And lastly then as regards Tony Blair is he being a troublemaker here
6:50
or is he trying to set, if not the Prime Minister, at least the party on the right track by saying
6:55
you probably haven't had a chance to read it all, but before you choose your next leader or a new leader
6:59
choose your direction. Sure. That's what he did with Labour, with Mandelson
7:03
He set out a bench. Do you remember the Enterprise Alliance game for... was it, windfall tax on utilities to get you back to work
7:11
That was a policy which sort of worked, but it was a direction of travel, what you thought would work for the young people
7:17
by utilising that tax to do it. So he had some ideas, but he maintained conservatism
7:23
Well, this lot came into power by default because Farah split the Tory right
7:28
After watching the documentary about him, I found that was really interesting
7:34
Yeah, we watched that as part of our A-level revision at home actually. It was no hagiography, was it? Yeah, what came across to me was, it was really
7:43
kind of delusional was what came to my mind. He really wants to remain relevant. I mean
7:50
the fact that he's kind of written a 5,000 word essay. And really, he has, even though
7:57
he hasn't got a kind of ego like Trump, he has got a big ego. He tried to cling on to
8:02
power um you know at the end of his career as prime minister um and what really kind of concerns
8:10
me was in that uh documentary is when when he feels that he is right he thinks that it's right
8:17
so um so if i really feel like i'm right about something then i you know i would question myself
8:28
is this just a feeling or am I right? He has such belief that he is right
8:35
and almost kind of, it almost seems kind of messianic. Yeah, that's a word that's often used actually
8:42
I mean, I prefer delusional to be honest with you. Yeah. But they go hand in hand
8:47
I think there's a hint of, I don't think it's totally, he's not totally fuelled by religion or something
8:52
but there is a corner of his mind, I think. There's a sort of, I've already used the word grandiosity
8:58
which may not even be a word. It's almost a form of megalomania here, do you see
9:02
Yeah, yeah. So this is the bit that I can't quite believe
9:06
and this is where the psychological argument kicks in. I know, this is what he wrote
9:10
I know how hard it is to be an ally of the USA. That, to me, is so wrong
9:18
I'm searching for a bigger word, but sometimes the little words are best. It's so wrong
9:22
It is not about being an ally of the USA. It is about treating your allies according to how they treat you
9:29
It's about treating your allies according to who is in charge. The USA under Barack Obama or even George Bush or Ronald Reagan
9:36
is not the USA under the heel of Donald Trump and his coterie of cronies and cretins
9:45
I mean, it is insane to suggest that we have a kind of God-given duty
9:51
to be allies of the USA, whatever they do. And then we move into the self-justification
9:56
We were its staunchest supporter post-9-11. 9-11 was a hideous terror attack
10:01
visited upon one of our closest allies by Islamist extremists. It bears no relationship whatsoever
10:07
to the decision of Benjamin Netanyahu to attack Iran and talk Donald Trump into joining him
10:14
And then he goes on, we went through Afghanistan and Iraq together. What is the equivalence he's seeking to draw here
10:20
But it mattered deeply to America and so it mattered to us also
10:24
He reads like a second-rate undergraduate. He signed up to the Billionaires Club, hasn't he
10:31
Well, I hate these simple answers to, well, simple questions. When you think about it, I don't know what would happen to me
10:38
if I hung around with billionaires and I had hundreds of millions at my disposal
10:43
It's a really good point, mate. It's a really good point. We don't know what happens
10:47
I mean, you see it, don't you? There comes a point where we all sit here thinking
10:51
well if I had 50 if I won the lottery I'd be fine but what if you weren't what if you wanted more and
10:57
more not just money but status I want to be on the board of peas I want to get this I want to get that
11:02
I want to have the biggest I want to have big carpets I want to have an HQ with my name above
11:06
the door I want to have a statue the bloke who ran phones for you has just bought himself a
11:11
bloody great statue of himself and that's what happens to these people he's a mobile phone
11:16
salesman. Fair play to the fellow. He's done brilliantly well. But who commissions
11:20
a statue of themselves? Answer, quite possibly, Tony Blair. Yeah, I mean, you know
11:26
it really is important to who you keep company with. You know, if you've got a child
11:30
say they're a good child, and they hang around with some friends, a group
11:34
who have, and, you know, I heard it told that it's of utter importance who you
11:40
hang around with. I think you're right. Which can override your... Hanging out with Jared Kushner, you suddenly think Donald Trump should redevelop Gaza
11:47
as a sort of playground for the super-rich? As for Tony Blair, I mean, he's just one man
11:51
One man, and it's only his opinion. He's a pretty successful joke in what he did, though
11:57
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And I'll kind of address that in a second. But as for listening to him in this present time
12:06
it doesn't really bother me. I just take it with a pinch of salt
12:11
I probably won't read the reports because I'm not kind of interested in his opinion
12:15
I'm more interested in the government, so we'll go there. Do you think the government's roughly motoring in the right direction
12:22
Yeah, I think so. I think that they're not getting everything right
12:27
No government does. No. No government does, so I can see that. What are they getting right, would you say
12:32
What are they getting right? Well, for me as a small business, I haven't paid employees' national insurance for the last two years
12:40
even though people keep going on about it, saying on my page. And I get that there's people out there
12:44
who are. I understand that. There's always people who get caught in the middle. I understand that
12:48
totally. But personally, me, I haven't. If I look back at Tony Blair's record
12:54
after I finished my maternity leave in 1999, his opinion then did matter
13:00
Because without working tax credit and working child tax credit, I wouldn't have been able to go back to work
13:06
So then it mattered. Does it matter now? Not really. Not to me
13:10
As for the net zero argument, I know some people don't agree with it and they think
13:18
oh this is just the weather But to me climate change happens all the time All the time It one of those things But You don take from what the last three or four days that we just in many parts of the country we endured You don take anything from that
13:34
Oh, yes, I do. I mean, basically what is happening is it's more frequent
13:39
So I've just spent my last four years studying in the US. And I tried to read this Blair
13:44
article without having an emotional reaction to it. Yes. and when doing that I found it actually that I think he had a lot of valid points and from a
13:54
realist perspective I thought it was quite impressive bar on the climate crisis um and his
14:01
arguments on welfare but specifically with the US relationship being the we'll get to that but
14:07
those are for me those are the two biggest things in it the comments about welfare yeah climate
14:12
Yeah, I agree with that, especially the climate and the North Sea oil fracking
14:17
which I just think is a terrible idea with everything that's going on in the geopolitical world right now
14:22
So in terms of being closer, trying to restore, or not having said any no's to Donald Trump
14:27
you think that that was a mistake by Keir Starmer? No, I think as Blair wrote in the article
14:33
he suggested that the worst part about it was that he only asked to use our bases
14:38
He didn't ask us to explicitly join the war. But to use our basis as an ally, I think, wasn't too bad of an ask
14:49
Although, obviously, Trump is the most incompetent president we've probably ever seen in our lifetime
14:55
Well, he did originally ask us to join in the attacks. Yes, but then Tony Blair, I'm guessing, didn't state that in the essay that we should full burn and join the war
15:06
Instead, just use the military basis. I think that point, although contentious, I think there's some validity to that, especially with the other geopolitical powerhouses at the moment, such as China and Russia, not being as trustworthy
15:21
And obviously spending the last four years in America, it may give me a bit of bias, an emotional bias towards them
15:27
But I think we do have the wrong view of Americans at the moment
15:32
as the majority of them are good-loving people who want the world to be a safe place
15:39
I mean, you're spinning several plates and I've got a horrible feeling a couple of them might have smashed already
15:44
So, I mean, nobody conflates Donald Trump with all of America. And the fact that you've got a morally bankrupt delinquent in the White House
15:53
means that you as a world leader have to treat the White House differently from how you would if it was occupied by a vaguely sensible or decent human being
16:02
The war is almost certainly illegal. It's proved to be utterly disastrous
16:07
The argument that we shouldn't have been involved in it at all is very popular in this country
16:11
and that we shouldn't even have allowed our bases to be used for the sort of retaliation to the retaliation
16:17
which, if you look at the Chilcot checklist, is intellectually solid as a position but quite hard to sell politically
16:23
that what would have been achieved by Keir Starmer being more heavily associated with this unfolding disaster
16:31
Yeah, I... Except keeping Trump sweet, which, as we've discovered a million times since he became president
16:37
only holds true for about 12 seconds. Yes, I agree with that
16:41
Hang on, are you agreeing with everything I've said while apparently defending Tony Blair
16:46
Yes, because two things can be true at once. No, right and wrong can't be true at once
16:51
This is a bit close to... So you've got a warm feeling about America and you think Tony Blair has spoken to your warm feeling about America
16:58
I don't want to patronise you, but that's not... No, no, no, yeah. I don't think that's... I think there's a difference between being honest in private
17:04
and then grandstanding publicly in a moment when you need the American goodwill on things like
17:09
I don't know, security, technology or trade. Yeah, OK, no, we do disagree
17:14
We do disagree. I'm watching Europe recalibrate for a world where America can no longer be trusted
17:19
And even if it returns to a place where it can be trusted because it's led by someone who's not morally bankrupt
17:23
and intellectually delinquent, then it would be healthy and good for the United Kingdom
17:28
and indeed for the rest of Europe to no longer be so dependent upon a restored United States of America
17:34
That special relationship, I think, has been consigned to the coffin of history
17:39
I really do. And it's just a question of how quickly we can detach ourselves
17:43
more properly from it rather than, as Tony Blair seems to believe, tacking transatlantically
17:49
tacking towards the United States of America and waiting until relations can be restored
17:56
because the White House is not occupied by a madman. And that's fine
18:01
That is a position that we can comfortably disagree on without either of us being able to prove the other one wrong 100%
18:07
But in my bones, in my core, I feel that we've reached a point in our own island history
18:13
where we can no longer be at the beck and call of the United States of America
18:17
And if we kick back to Claire and her psychological subconscious observation that that's what motivates Blair, that refusal to even contemplate the fact that Iraq was the disaster that everybody else knows it to be
18:30
I'm not a Tony Blair fan, but I think he's absolutely spot on. Labour, since they've come into power, they've got no plan. There's no direction. Everything's a U-turn constantly
18:40
I agree Labour have gone too far left now. I'm not saying that they need to go far right either
18:49
but there's got to be some meeting in the middle, some common sense back into politics
18:55
Well, to underscore what you say, Sir Tony Blair would say when Labour veers off to the left
19:00
it always spells electoral disaster, is what Sir Tony would say. Oh, yeah, I mean, look what's happening
19:05
with the local council elections recently. But if you'll allow that, and I think most people agree, Andy Burnham is far more to the left than Keir Starmer
19:13
Are they, is Labour in danger of doing it again? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm not a Starmer fan, far from it
19:21
But you're talking about replacing the guy who's got no policies with another guy who's actually going to be worse than Keir Starmer
19:29
And he'll take the Labour Party even more far left. I was always brought up with supporting the Labour Party
19:36
but I can't do that anymore it's not the party that And is that because, lastly because of the U-turns
19:42
Matt, that you referenced at the start of our conversation Yeah, absolutely
19:46
You know, I was listening to you earlier and you had Dan
19:52
Thomas on Tom Linson, yes, Dan Tom Linson That's my job But again, you were trying to raise points
19:59
and it's just typical but they just don't listen they just don't want to listen to anything
20:05
it their way or the highway you know I was a real Blair fan 97 35 years old dancing in the streets Yeah And you know still holed up with possibly slightly rose spectacles
20:20
the fond memories of all the achievements up until the Iraq War
20:27
Yeah. So, you know, you could put me down as a fan
20:32
started with a big F, but it became slightly smaller. A shrinking F
20:36
Yes, absolutely. There's a joke there somewhere. But I'm struggling with this because I am so sad and disappointed
20:50
You've articulated it 20 times better than I ever could. Nonsense. Particularly, okay, well, I'll give it a go
20:57
Particularly around appeasing Trump, staying close to, because I don't see that you can create that disconnect
21:06
as an earlier caller said, about the American people with Trump, because we are dealing with Trump if we say
21:12
yes, we'll help you with Iran. And he's a maniac, and we all know that
21:17
Tony Blair doesn't. Tony Blair obviously doesn't know that. Well, yeah, I mean..
21:22
And that takes us back to Phil Wan, doesn't it? And the idea that you spend so long in a certain environment
21:28
there's some form of moral osmosis occurs, and you end up thinking that all of this is not just acceptable and normal
21:34
but desirable. And the next thing you know, you're shaking hands with Jerry Kushner
21:37
whose qualifications to be a Middle East peace envoy are that he works for his father's real estate firm in New York
21:44
And Tony Blair's sitting there going, that's all perfectly fine. That's absolutely fine
21:48
That's not just fine, that's great. And that is when you lose sight of the fact that Donald Trump's a maniac
21:53
a deranged liar. Absolutely. I absolutely agree with you. And here he is
21:58
So what are you clinging on to then? Where are you finding hope that things aren't as bad as I'm describing them to be
22:04
It's a stretch. It's pragmatism. It's pragmatism for standing in front of the veering bus
22:14
that is the Labour government at the moment in order to try to get them to realise
22:21
that we are lurching towards the inevitability of a hard-right, reform-led government
22:29
And he's saying let's be more like them. Well, I think he's saying, well, yes, you're absolutely right
22:37
Let's adopt those policies through the filter of a Labour government. And this all sounds dodgy and rubbish, as I'm saying
22:47
No, it doesn't. It doesn't. That is what he's doing. Well, yeah, absolutely it is
22:52
I'm just saying it's dodgy and rubbish because it's just so wrong, isn't it
22:57
It's just so wrong. yes it is that's the word that we keep coming back to it's just it's just wrong and then you
23:04
and i because we're sweet summer children we've got and we have this sort of legacy of of tony
23:10
blair and his election victories and and the good that his government did not least we haven't even
23:14
mentioned northern ireland but the you know that we can't quite believe it is as wrong as it appears
23:20
to be but it probably is mate yeah i agree and and you know deep irony who bought him the minimum
23:27
wage. Which government? Port of the minimum wage. The Blair government. Yeah, no. I mean, there's lots of things on the tick list
23:33
and now he's complaining about changes to the living wage. It's actually probably the best example
23:37
of all, of a reverse ferret. Me and you, we're a similar age, right
23:41
Yeah. We share a birthday, in fact. Do we? Gosh. Yeah. Yeah. I'm even a doctor the same as you
23:47
I'm a massive Pratchett fan. The difference is, I'm the mug that
23:51
voted for the bus. LAUGHTER I like this. Go on. What's happened to Tony Blair
23:59
Oh, mate, he was such a hero, wasn't he? I mean, schools were transformed
24:03
My kids have had a fantastic education. Do you know what I mean
24:07
And sort of like they've done really well. My daughter's a bank manager and, you know, me
24:13
I drive a forklift. Do you know what I mean? You can see the difference from the uplift
24:18
And now he's talking all this claptrap. What's happened? Well, that's why I'm asking you, mate, respectfully
24:22
Well, I can tell you what's happened. It's feather in his nest. Do you think it is all about the Benjamins
24:27
It has been for the last decade. Every time something happens, he pops up
24:31
and he's got someone else's opinion. It's like, ask for questions, Blairite type thing
24:36
You are more cynical than I am then, because I mean, I'm looking at where his money comes from
24:42
Larry Ellison was the richest man in the world for about 10 minutes. I don't know if you remember when the share price of Oracle peaked
24:47
And he's given hundreds, or pledged, hundreds of millions of pounds. And guess what made him the richest man in the world briefly
24:58
I haven't a clue. It was his stake in AI infrastructure. And guess which bit of what Tony Blair has said today
25:04
I haven't actually shared with you yet. He's saying that everything should be done by AI
25:09
We need to go all in on AI. I mean, but again, it might be true, but if you're being bankrolled by a bloke
25:14
who became the richest man in the world briefly solely because he, well, not solely, but in that moment
25:19
because he was so heavily invested in AI, it means I'm minded not to trust a word you say about AI
25:27
Well, I'm for all the AI, so if he wants to chuck some reddies over in Norfolk
25:31
I'm happy to take it. We can build it up. So at 10.40 is the time
25:34
Thank you, Dave. I mean, is it... Because, I mean, listen, my confusion is genuine
25:40
as is my naivety, or whatever the opposite of cynicism is. Is that what you're seeing
25:45
You're just saying, well, James, just wind you. Come on, mate. Give your head a wobble
25:49
It's Occam's razor. If someone gave you 250 million... If someone turned you into a kind of post-statesman guru
25:56
you need an awful lot of money to do that. The Institute is huge, absolutely huge
26:04
$130 million between 21 and 2023. A further $218 million pledged since then
26:11
It's seen the Tony Blair Institute move from a headcount of 200 to approaching 1,000
26:17
It takes no salary himself, but the institute has become a sort of global powerhouse
26:24
with his name all over it. And that, I'm afraid, speaks to ego, right
26:30
If not enrichment, then ego. Turn a minute or a bit over to what you're saying on social media
26:36
as regards to Tony Blair. Nicola in Tunbridge Wells, also in Kent, by the way. Tony Blair is right
26:40
The absolute sword of having a reform government fills him with terror. We can't have governments that are too much to one, to the left
26:45
or too much to the right. It doesn't work. The Green Party seems bonkers and sectarian
26:50
The reform are terrifying and restorers beyond the pale. I'm not a Labour supporter
26:54
but they've got to get them together to save the country
#news