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Sir Keir Starmer has accused Elon Musk of trying to “whip up division” in the UK over Henry Nowak’s murder and said Britain needs to “assert who we are” as “reasonable, tolerant people”. The billionaire X owner has posted numerous times on his platform about the police response to the stabbing of the teenager in Southampton last year, criticising “how heinously Nowak was treated by the police in his dying moments”. Andrew Marr discusses the topic with a host of guests. 00:00 | Andrew's thoughts on the subject 03:47 | Sir Ed Davey, leader of the Liberal Democrats 08:51 | Jamie Susskind, best-selling author of 'The Digital Republic: On Freedom and Democracy in the 21st Century' and 'Future Politics: Living Together in a World Transformed by Tech' 12:24 | Bruce Daisley, former European Vice President of Twitter and former UK Managing Director of YouTube Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #AndrewMarr #KeirStarmer #ElonMusk #Politics #UKPolitics #UK #UKNews #News #Debate #Opinion #WorldNews #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Today, the political battle following the Henry Novak murder spread, deepened and threw up fresh questions
0:07
Whatever the specifics of the tragedy itself, and it's not really clear that race was central to the police reaction
0:13
for the Conservatives and reform, this is or should be now about diversity policies more generally
0:19
whether some white people in Britain are treated as second class. But for Labour, it's about malign outside influences trying to whip up division and hatred
0:29
And for the Prime Minister today, the influence he was thinking about was very specific
0:34
We need to also assert who we are as a country, because Musk, again, has been interfering in our politics in the last few days
0:40
trying to whip up division. That is not who we are in Britain
0:44
There's no doubt that Musk has thrown many verbal hand grenades into British politics
0:49
He now seems to have moved on from Nigel Farage to promote Rupert Lowe's Restore Party even further to the right
0:56
In some areas, Musk dominates and shapes the debate more than British politicians do
1:01
We live in a world in which the tech giants are simply bigger in financial heft and effective communication than many nation states
1:10
If you doubt me, listen to the biographer of another of the hugely influential tech bros, Peter Thiel, talking to me yesterday about how he thinks
1:18
The thing that is probably most essential to his character and his belief system is just this idea that basically tech companies should run the world
1:29
And it can have a sort of right-wing valence. It can have a libertarian valence
1:35
It can have an anti-democratic valence. But to some extent, the politics of Peter Thiel and the politics of Palantir and the politics of many of these companies, it really just boils down to we should be able to do whatever we want
1:47
And I think the term you hear most associated with that is disruption, this sense that tech companies should be able to go in, break the rules, and from their point of view, change the rules, get rich, and make the world a better place
2:03
That's the trajectory. And Max Chafkin's assessment of Peter Thiel applies more widely
2:09
Dex Hunter-Torek is in the unusual position of both working with the current British government and having worked before for Elon Musk
2:17
I think we're in a very dangerous moment where you are seeing the intertwining of the U.S. tech industry with the U.S. political administration in ways that have, of course, not inspired confidence in people who believe in the kind of values and the systems that I think lots of people believe in
2:32
Democracy, stable international order. We've seen AI systems being used for all sorts of things that have undermined global stability
2:40
So, yeah, I think we should be deeply concerned at this concentration of economic and political power
2:44
So this leaves hanging in the air the biggest question of all. Keir Starmer may believe Elon
2:50
Musk is his enemy and a thoroughly bad man. He may very well be right. But what does he and his
2:56
government actually propose to do about what has become a much broader conflict between social
3:01
democratic European politicians on the one hand and the titans of Silicon Valley with very different
3:07
political views on the other? Normally, we'd say in a fight between national governments and media
3:12
companies, it's obvious who would win. But it certainly isn't obvious today. It's true
3:18
as Starmer reminds us, that Ofcom launched an investigation into Musk's AI chatbot
3:23
Grok, which was generating explicit and abusive sexual images of children and women
3:29
Earlier this year, Musk, after accusing Britain of fascism, backed down and removed the function
3:35
Now, that was an important but local victory. Stopping Musk's ex whipping up division is a
3:41
much harder to ask, and I'm not sure Starmer has the weaponry or the political base to do it
3:47
However, let's start tonight with the leader of the Liberal Democrats, Sir Ed Davey. He joined me
3:52
a little earlier, and I asked for his reaction to Starmer's comments on Musk earlier on
3:56
Well, I strongly support him. I've long been a critic of Elon Musk, the way he's
4:01
whipped up racial hatred in sight of violence in our streets, called for the overthrow of the
4:05
government. I mean, it's quite outrageous. It was bad enough when he was actually in the
4:10
government of Donald Trump. And it's still it's still wrong. I think that what we've got to work
4:16
out, Andrew, and what I say back to the prime minister is, OK, call him out. But what are we
4:22
going to do Absolutely I think we need to use the full arm of the law against him If you were wargaming this you look at both sides and you say how strong are they in this conflict And you look at the reach of X and the reach of Elon Musk
4:37
and all the people he supports and promotes on X. And it really compares to traditional media
4:42
quite formidably. He's also got the money. He's got the global support in a way that sometimes
4:48
Britain doesn't. Weirdly, we may be at the point where a moderately sized social democracy versus
4:55
is an American tech company, it feels a one-way fight the wrong way
4:59
I don't think we've taken the fight to these people, Tim and I, Andrew. We need the right laws
5:04
We have the Online Safety Act. I believe that Musk could be held criminally responsible for some of the shocking things
5:11
that appear on X. So I think he could be charged, and certainly X could be held responsible under the law
5:20
So we do have laws, and if they're not strong enough, let's create some more, because it's
5:24
clearly wrong that the world's richest man should use his power and incite violence and racism in
5:32
our country. So I think it is a test. You're right. It is a test. Can we stand up for these people
5:38
I believe we can. Because I mean, other countries, and I'm thinking of Brazil, have either suspended or threatened to suspend X completely and certainly got Elon Musk's
5:48
attention by doing so. Yeah. I mean, that is an ultimate sanction we could take. It certainly
5:54
should be on the table. There's lots of different ways you can go after people who are breaking your
5:59
law. I mean, Musk, I do think, responds to money, doesn't he? And there's lots of things we could do
6:07
over not just X, but some other companies. I mean, for example, when he applied for a license to
6:13
Ofgem to sell energy in our country, I argue that he should be banned from having that license
6:18
because of the way he's behaved. So we have sanctions to hit him in the pocket
6:23
And that's where these people hated it. The interesting thing, in a way, is that a lot of the tech philosopher kings, or whatever they call themselves, have very, very different politics from mainstream British politics
6:35
We were talking about on this show Peter Thiel yesterday, who has something like contempt for traditional welfare social democracies
6:44
And therefore, we are importing into our world values which are quite alien to it
6:49
Yeah, and in Mr. Thiel's case, you know, his company Palantir has had these fantastic contracts with the NHS that worry a lot of people about data security
7:02
We can take those contracts away from him. You know, we can play tough with these people
7:07
We're not completely bound by them. And there is an issue about can we create our own tech equivalent
7:14
I think we can. We've got some of the best tech people in the world here
7:18
We're actually a very strong AI nation, for example. And I think we can work with other countries who don't like the fact that the U.S. is trying to monopolize all aspects of technology
7:31
And let's also be clear, there are some American tech companies who have values that we would recognize and support
7:38
So it's a small number. Let's get hard on them. Is this a kind of new politics that's beginning to evolve, do you think
7:45
Is this part of the future of our politics? 100%. I think we have to work out these people who have this level of power, which I agree with
7:55
you. I don't think we've seen it before. Not just the wealth, but their ability to influence people
8:01
Let's remember one of the problems with X is the algorithms. There was a good study recently which
8:07
showed that the algorithms with political debate push people to the extremes, and particularly to
8:13
the right-wing extremes. That's what the algorithms do. And that's not right. That's
8:19
not good for political debate. That's not good for our democracy. Why should we allow an American
8:23
citizen who's called for the overthrow of our government to own a company where its basic
8:30
inner workings of their technology are trying to undermine our democratic debate? It's just
8:36
nonsense. We have to act. I don't think we've been anywhere tough enough yet, Andrew
8:40
Well, it does seem that the old phrase, the national media or the national press
8:45
is simply outdated these days. Sir Ed Davey, thank you very much indeed for talking to LBC
8:50
Let's keep this conversation going now with somebody who has thought and written about it
8:55
all extensively the barrister and author of Digital Republic on Freedom and Democracy in the 21st Century Jamie Suskind Jamie thanks very much indeed for coming in Again we talking really about a power imbalance which is unfamiliar to us
9:11
We have never really had a situation in our democracy when big voices from outside the country were so loud
9:18
that politicians are struggling to be heard against them. I agree. But I also think we need to keep it in perspective
9:25
It's easy in weeks like this when the national temperature is high to feel like we're under assault, to feel like things are falling apart
9:33
He called for the overthrow of the government. The government hasn't been overthrown
9:38
He says all kinds of unpleasant things, but there are lots of people on the Internet saying unpleasant things and lots of people who want to listen to them
9:44
We need to take a calm and rational approach to this. I actually agree with the fact that in this century, one of the great questions that we're going to have to confront is to what extent should we be subject to the awesome power of digital technology and on what terms
9:59
We shouldn't do it in situations of crisis, though. That's not where good thinking comes from
10:02
But I do think there is a really important debate to be had about the power of social media and AI, but also what we do in a free society to deal with that
10:10
You know, you have politicians like Mr. Davey talking about criminalizing this, banning this, sanctioning that, taking away that
10:16
And the truth is that politicians like all of us can be tempted to do things capriciously, tempted to do things against people we don't like
10:25
Let me just give you one reality check. factually. In 2016 or so, people used to say that it was social media that caused the extraordinary
10:34
polarization in American politics that led to the election of Donald Trump and led to much else
10:40
besides. An authoritative study that was done later suggested that actually it was the traditional
10:47
broadcast media in the United States, the right wing news culture and ecosphere that actually had
10:54
more of a polarizing effect. It's not that algorithms and social media don't have that effect
10:58
It's that sometimes we exaggerate them. So as you're saying, keep a sense of perspective
11:03
that seems very wise. One of the things that really strikes me looking at political coverage
11:08
on X and on other social platforms is the way AI is turning sort of politicians and situations
11:14
into hilarious and vivid satirical memes. You know, the use of AI to kind of guy or caricature
11:23
the prime minister or many other people in a very, very effective way. And I can feel it
11:27
changing my mind about politics. Yes. And actually, without going back on myself
11:32
there are some things we need to keep a perspective on. I think the power of social media to actually influence political opinion has probably been overstated. I think AI could be
11:41
something of a completely different order. In all of human history, the only people who have been
11:47
able to contribute to political debate have been humans. It's humans who give speeches
11:53
who make arguments, who write screeds and manifestos and diatribes. That's not going
11:58
to be the case in our lifetime. We will see non-human systems of extraordinary capability
12:05
both for good and for ill, intervening in their political debate, whether on their own account
12:11
as agents or whether on behalf of forces that we don't know or understand
12:15
This feels to me as if we are tiptoeing into an awesomely important argument, which we don't have time to get into any further
12:21
But for now, Jamie, thank you very, very much indeed for that. Because I want to go now to the former European vice president of Twitter and UK managing director of YouTube, Bruce Daisley
12:31
We began by talking about the standoff between Musk and the prime minister, as it seems to be a very unequal fight
12:38
Yeah, I think that's a perfect encapsulation of it. And certainly if you compare the UK's approach to countries like France and what's happening elsewhere
12:47
we're in an interesting situation at the moment where the UK government seems to be singly delighted to take on individuals
12:55
but utterly unprepared to take on platforms, especially when our political environment is shaped by billionaire oligarchs more than ever before
13:05
I think that's an important distinction to draw. When you say take on the platform, just give people listening some sense of the scale, the heft of the X operation, the Elon Musk operation in the political sphere, not just in the UK, but around the world
13:19
Yeah, well, look, it's worth saying that Ofcom's latest report suggests that about 11, 12, 13 percent of UK people get their news principally from X
13:28
So you know it a reasonable news provider It certainly as big as one of the tabloid newspapers that we might have known in days gone by In addition to that the platform isn albeit that Elon Musk might suggest it a platform for transparency
13:45
Sky News did a big investigation last autumn that suggested that any new account that was formed on the platform
13:51
immediately was presented with a lot of right-wing commentary. And by right wing, I don't mean Kelly, Kemi Badenok
14:00
I mean sort of Rupert Lowe, Reform UK, really extreme right wing to the extent that we've never seen before
14:08
So we're definitely seeing a real shift of the political window, the Overton window via these social media platforms
14:19
And so, yeah, absolutely. You know, Elon Musk himself has spoken at rallies by Tommy Robinson
14:25
Tommy Robinson has told his associates that Elon Musk is helping to fund him
14:32
So we're definitely seeing that Elon Musk is having an impact on UK politics
14:37
And it's just interesting because Keir Starmer's words today were quite cautious, were gentle, were sort of be careful
14:44
You know, if it was a referee, he'd be giving you a warning before a yellow card rather than a yellow card
14:50
In comparison, we're seeing other voices being banned from the UK. And, you know, the fact that it comes in the same week as two YouTubers, basically, two social media influencers being banned from the country
15:05
It does seem disproportionate that Keir Starmer is willing to take on the small individual participants, but unwilling to take on the billionaire oligarchs
15:14
Well, he's certainly, as it were, using bold enough language, sort of calling him out and the rest of it
15:20
But if he pursued this further, if he really went for it, how would that play out
15:25
I mean, the fact that we even would dare to suggest that this is bold language
15:30
Keir Starmer is threatening to set Ofcom on them. But Ofcom is pretty much like the least threat that anyone could potentially suggest
15:40
You know, everyone who looks at Ofcom and Ofcom's work sort of smirks and scowls at how utterly ineffective they are
15:49
So Keir Starmer may be one of the least effective prime ministers in history
15:54
Threatening to set Ofcom on you doesn't necessarily count as the sort of thing that would scare Elon Musk
16:00
Look, I mentioned that other countries are doing more. In France, Elon Musk has been an investigation into election interference
16:09
has started with Elon Musk. It's been ongoing over the last few months
16:13
Elon Musk didn't participate in it, and it's now being elevated to a criminal prosecution
16:20
So it's worth saying that other countries are taking this more seriously
16:24
They're not tiptoeing around. They're not scared to have an influence. And look, you know, I think the track record of the UK is that we don't necessarily behave like one of the UN Security Council's top countries
16:41
We don't behave like one of the biggest economies in the world. We kind of behave in a slightly diffident way, hoping that no one is going to get offended by what we say
16:50
And Keir Starmer is the perfect exemplar of that. So if I was Keir Starling, you were talking to me, Bruce, and I said, OK, OK, mate, what should I do to really make a difference
17:00
What will grab Elon Musk's attention and persuade him to change his ways
17:04
Let's look at the Sky News investigation. Sky News said that a lot of right wing content was being placed into people's feet and they saw it as a manipulation of the narrative inside our news ecosystem, inside the information ecosystem
17:20
Then effectively a prohibition of the platform or a temporary suspension of it, which is something that other governments have done
17:28
Brazil paused. And that worked, as I recall. He responded to Brazil
17:33
Yes. You know, this is a guy who's getting ready to IPO the product that owns X in the next few days
17:41
The UK is typically the second or third biggest market in the world
17:45
And so a suspension right now is quite injurious to this IPO that he's about to do
17:52
So, you know, we've got far more influence than we think, but threatening to set Ofcom on someone is not necessarily going to enact action, I think
18:02
All right. There's some really good advice for Keir Starmer, Bruce Daisley. Thank you so much for that
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