Up next in 10
Andy Burnham will officially take the keys to Number 10 on Monday, promised to reverse "four decades of neoliberalism" which he admitted had followed Great Britain since the 1980s. The Makerfield MP is expected to unveil a cabinet which represents "all parts" of Labour, in comparison to the more narrow one considered to have been adopted by Sir Keir Starmer's government. He's also claimed he will reverse 'wrong turns' of Margaret Thatcher's economic legacy on the country. To discuss the topic Matthew Wright is joined by Johnbosco Nwogbo, Outreach and Growth Lead at ‘We Own It’ - a group campaigning against the privatisation of public services and Lord Lilley, Conservative Peer and former Deputy Leader of the Conservative Party - who served under Margaret Thatcher's government. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #matthewwright #politics #uknews #ukpolitics #news #uk #andyburnham #labour #conservative #economics #finance #margaretthatcher #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
Now, in a few minutes, I'll be talking to Lord Peter Lilly, who, if I remember right, in John Major's cabinet, was referred to as the last Thatcherite in the cabinet, the last Thatcherite left standing
0:11
But I'm joined first by John Bosco Mwogbo, outreach and growth leader at We Own It, a group that campaigns against the privatisation of public services
0:20
Nice to see you, John Bosco. Good to see you too. did um did Andy Burnham's sort of broadside against Thatcherism how did that resonate with
0:30
you I'm looking at you you seem considerably younger than me so I'm very interested to hear
0:35
I was somewhat um surprised by um what you said that younger people don't know who Thatcher is or
0:43
why she is considered to be somewhat controversial for people of your age um but I I came to the
0:50
United Kingdom to study at the University of Sussex so I have existed around people younger
0:55
than me for a very long time and yes they do know who Thatcher is they understand fundamentally
1:02
that she wrecked the British state and did so in such a way that has crippled it for the last
1:09
30-40 years and handed over the essentials of life to people who care nothing more about it than
1:16
to extract profit from it and andy bynham was absolutely spot on in his diagnosis of the problem
1:23
in fact kind of when we're thinking about how do we respond to this speech after he made it
1:28
the one thing that everybody around the table was saying was he was absolutely right about the
1:33
problem you know and the the test is now going to be on what his solution is and on that he has been
1:40
incredibly unclear for i would say for the last couple of weeks in fact since um the by-election
1:46
in meccafield and i think at some point he'll have to become clearer because thameswater for example
1:55
is a um a problem that if he does not tackle it is going to tackle him and it's going to be very
2:03
important that he becomes clear before that problem comes on and obviously from our point of view
2:08
in order to really tackle the problem of the privatization of our water
2:14
that I've seen companies that were handed over to private companies with zero pounds and zero pence in debt
2:20
now having 80 billion pounds in debt, and that companies that have seen 90 billion pounds taken out of them in dividends over the course of privatization those companies need to come back into public ownership so that profits are reinvested to build up infrastructure
2:37
and build up resilience of our water infrastructure for the next 50 years of potential droughts
2:44
obviously with the heat waves that we're seeing. I wonder about renationalisation
2:51
because it could be so much more nuanced than simply going back to how it was in the 1970s
2:58
which is how some of the right-leaning newspapers are portraying it. Do you think that that broadside against Thatcher will have resonated through all the age ranges
3:12
I mean, because it certainly, as I said, it spoke directly to me, because I'm really interested and passionate about water
3:17
But do you think, I mean, you said in your office you're all talking about, do you think it was a home run across the country
3:25
I mean, Thatcher is the 16th greatest Britain, according to a BBC poll a few years back, of all time
3:33
I think it resonated across age ranges and across the country. Obviously, there are people who are, we're not all the same politically
3:41
So there are going to be people who may have thought that it was not quite right
3:47
But those people are not, in some ways, they're not ever going to be gettable for Andy Burnham
3:53
What Andy Burnham and what the Labour government is, and I'm sure should be doing
3:59
is speaking to as many of the people as possible who voted for them in 2024 and who are now looking elsewhere
4:06
those people have shown that they are willing to vote for a Labour government or a Labour party
4:13
And in essence, what he's saying to them is, we came into power and we behaved like mini-tachers
4:22
It's enough. We are going to be Labour. And what Labour means is we're going to run public services in the interest of the public
4:30
and not in the interest of billionaires and foreign owners. and just to say a little bit about what you said about public ownership
4:37
public ownership in the 21st century that we are proposing is not really the same thing as public ownership as we had in the 1970s
4:46
we believe for example that Thames water should be brought into public ownership
4:51
but it should be run somewhat like how Paris water ran water in Paris when it was taken into public ownership in 2008 They created something called the Paris Water Observatory which brought together espats households and small businesses in the area
5:08
to sit on the board of Paris Water and run it in the interests of those who own it
5:14
And they cleaned up the same and they increased the customer satisfaction for Paris Water
5:19
John Bosco, I've got to leave it there as Lord Peter Lilly is waiting
5:24
pleasure talking to you and powerful comments which I imagine, good morning Peter, I imagine
5:30
you would disagree with every one of them. I've never heard anything so ridiculous in my life
5:36
To blame Mrs Thatcher for everything that happened in the 36 years after she ceased to be in power
5:42
is, well, it's attributing to her powers that even she would not have sought. No, during her period
5:51
We moved from being the slowest growing economy in Europe to the fastest growing major economy in Europe
5:57
We had the worst industrial relations, if you remember, absolutely appalling. She gave the unions back to their members and we ended up with the best industrial relations
6:05
We had the fewest small businesses per head. We ended up with among the highest new and new formed businesses per head
6:14
And therefore we became faster growing. We had lower taxes and the standard of living rose
6:20
As a result, we kept getting re-elected. I believe in democracy. I think there's something to be said that you think you were right
6:28
but the people think you were wrong. And Tony Blair only got elected by promising not to undo what had been done
6:35
including not to undo privatisation. You made it all hinge on water
6:43
Privatisation is what Andy Burnham was talking about. Privatisation of water, you said
6:48
I made it about water, but Andy Burnham didn't. You kept on going about water. Let me respond about water
6:54
A quarter of the water industry was always private. My local water in St Albans was privately provided since 1648
7:02
It didn't make much difference whether it was public or private, but when it was publicly owned, it wasn't very well regulated
7:10
There was a case for having private, so you separated regulation from ownership
7:15
If you bring them back together, you'll find they're just as badly regulated and worse run
7:21
But we privatized lots of industries. It was seen to be a success
7:25
It was copied around the world It helped produce the collapse of communism where they thought gosh we had entirely state industries it isn working let follow Thatcher and she terribly popular over there
7:37
So why is it when I go into my rivers, they're full of poop
7:43
Because they've been badly regulated. I said in my introduction that regulation was the problem
7:50
No, it's bad regulation. No, but that's what I said in my introduction. It's bad regulation
7:55
Right. And who oversaw the regulators? The governments. Right. So it's the government's fault, really, isn't it
8:02
Right. So it's the government's fault, really, isn't it? Yeah. Mainly Labour. Yeah. Well, initially, initially under the Tories..
8:07
The one thing that's clearly changed is that we used always to have water shortages every summer
8:12
What we haven't done, we don't now for some reason, we did this summer, but we haven't for most summers
8:17
I couldn't have hosepipes banned all my youth. But anyway, that's... We haven't built a bit of one since the 1980s, haven't we
8:24
The fate of this country depends on how well we organise the water industry
8:29
It's just frankly silly. But if the water industry is representative of all the other privatisations
8:33
it becomes a very interesting case study. Poor regulation. So why is my energy bill so high now it's been privatised
8:40
Where's all the profit going? Why does all the profit go? I'll answer your question
8:44
It's because we've been pursuing net zero since 2008. And that's a result
8:49
We have the highest energy prices in the OECD. It's better to be dependent on foreign oil production
8:56
or you think we can just keep drilling in the North Sea in areas that we've never drilled so deep or far before
9:01
when the Tories issued 300 licences and generated less than six months' worth of gas
9:07
So, I mean, you think the rush to net zero is mad. I mean, surely, with the country overheating at the moment
9:14
the idea of drilling for more oil is truly for the birds. I mean, there was so much nonsense in that
9:19
it's difficult to break it down. Of course, we should drill our own oil rather than import it from Norway
9:24
No matter what the cost. Why is it possible for the Norwegians to find oil in the North Sea and others
9:29
We should also open up to onshore shale gas. That would help the North more than anything else
9:35
to have their own supplies of domestic energy and fuel for chemicals and fertilisers
9:40
that was more likely to re-industrialise the North of Britain than anything else I can think of and no one even talks about it
9:47
Peter Lilly, pleasure talking to you. Peter Lilly, the Lars Thatcherite in John Major's Cabinet
9:52
and a man who truly believes that her privatisation programme is something truly wonderful
9:59
0345 6060 973
#news