Up next in 10
Four more ministers have left Keir Starmer's government today, with Jess Phillips, Alex Davies-Jones, Miatta Fahnbulleh and Zubir Ahmed have all announcing their departure. Remaining cabinet ministers insisted there will be no Labour leadership contest - as David Lammy pledged his full support. Andrew Marr is joined by Baroness Jenny Chapman, International Development Minister at the Foreign Office, and Miatta Fahnbulleh, former Housing Minister and Minister for Devolution, Faith and Communities who resigned from government earlier today, to discuss whether or not Starmer should resign. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #andrewmarr #ukpolitics #LBC #labour #keirstarmer LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
One, to have any chance of winning another election, the Labour Party needs to change its leader
0:06
But two, moving against him now is madness. The King's speech happens tomorrow, laying out the legislation for the next session
0:15
If the Prime Minister is on the way out of the door, then the entire thing is a farce
0:20
The King is put in a completely impossible position, and we will seem ungovernable and ridiculous
0:27
And remember, although this happens at Westminster, this is not a Westminster bubble story
0:33
It matters to you. Britain's long-term borrowing costs are at their highest level since 1998, the time of the global financial crisis
0:42
That's less money for everything else. The pound is falling against the dollar and political instability ripples across the whole business world
0:51
If the Labour left now takes over, it is committed to higher spending and higher taxes
0:57
So, what next? Well, it's going to be a long week. Keir Starmer is refusing to budge
1:04
He's done everything short of actually bricking up the front door in Downing Street
1:08
and unrolling barbed wire around the building. Fair dues, he is a stubborn fellow
1:14
And tonight, more than 100 Labour MPs have signed a letter saying this is not the time for a leadership contest
1:19
rather more than the 80-plus who are publicly out against him. So the truth is, it is possible even now that he'll ride this out
1:28
The trouble is, he doesn't have the even vaguely united party he needs to govern better
1:34
Ministers have continued to resign today. Despite that, Starmer could limp painfully on with less authority
1:41
even less ability to command, unable to shape his future, still less ours
1:46
What would he do about his Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmood, who's told him to his face to go
1:52
or Wes Streeting, the health secretary, who asked to see him this morning and was brusquely turned down
1:58
It seems to me an utterly miserable prospect, for Keir Starmer and for the rest of us
2:04
a kind of sublime apotheosis of pointlessness. Andy Burnham is in London. Wes Streeting is still deciding what to do
2:13
Labour MPs are on the brink. And yet the brink may prove a quiet, dusty place where they can squat for quite a long time
2:22
A bitter and lengthy leadership campaign could produce a full-blown financial crisis
2:27
and perhaps even an early general election. But in the meantime, everyone, welcome to the brink
2:33
Bring water. Bring sleeping bags. Join me there. It could be a long wait
2:39
Well, joining me first tonight is the International Development Minister in the Foreign Office
2:44
Baroness Jenny Chapman. If the Prime Minister stays on now, I asked her, how can he really govern with any authority
2:52
I understand completely why some of my colleagues in the Parliamentary Labour Party feel the way they do
2:59
You know, I've been, I've fought a lot of elections. I've won a few, lost one
3:05
And I understand the pain that goes alongside that. This is a very bruising, painful moment
3:09
It is, it is. And I've also been a local councillor and I've been there when friends have lost their seat
3:16
Very long, you know, friends for a long time. and I understand that that need to want to do something to make sure this can never happen again
3:24
and to change and it feels very urgent at the moment it actually isn't and what I would say is
3:31
that it's much much better to take a breath and to really think hard about what happened why it
3:38
happened because we those results on Thursday are important that we don't just try and walk past them
3:43
and pretend like nothing needs to change because it does But I think the idea that therefore you must then embark upon this chaotic contest potentially for who not just leads the Labour Party
3:57
but is Prime Minister of the country, I genuinely don't think that that is what the country wants us to do right now
4:04
I get that. I'm trying to close my eyes and imagine thinking ahead
4:08
six months ahead, a year ahead. Keir Starmer is still there. He has lost a lot of his ministers
4:14
and he has lost the public support of an awful lot of his MPs, doesn't that mean actually governing the country
4:20
steering the country via parliament becomes near impossible for him? I don't think so
4:25
I mean, I think the majority of the parliamentary Labour Party is behind the Prime Minister and does not want this contest
4:33
if it should start to happen because nobody controls it. And I think, but your question is about how you rebuild
4:42
should we get through this immediate challenge that confronts us? How you re-establish authority and get the government..
4:48
Well, that really is my question. Yes, I can understand that. Because, I mean, nearly 80 people have now come out
4:53
That is an awful lot. I know it's not in the majority, but it's an awful lot
4:57
Yeah. And somehow that, you know, the authority at the centre crumbles
5:01
And how you get that back is my question. What does he actually do to get that back
5:06
So I think knowing many of those people on the list of 80
5:10
they're all coming at this from slightly different perspectives. It's not that they all have one outcome in mind
5:17
And I think what you have to do is listen respectfully, understand what it is they're saying, and you have to respond
5:24
I think that because the majority of the parliamentary Labour Party are not signing up to this, they're not resigning
5:30
they're not calling for a process. I think that that authority does take time to regain
5:35
I don't want to pretend like this is nothing. It is a serious situation
5:40
But I think because of the Prime Minister taking the response in the way that he is and saying, actually, no, my job is to run the country
5:47
That's what the people of our country asked him to do. That's what he's getting on with doing
5:53
He effectively closed down the cabinet on this this morning. And then when Wes Streeting wanted to speak one to one said no
6:00
So he's trying to, as it were, shut people up. I just wonder whether... That's not quite what happened
6:04
I was there. Well, tell me what happened. Tell us what happened. So, I mean, one thing is the cabinet talks to each other very regularly and we find ways of letting each other know what we think about things constantly
6:17
So we don't need to be invited to do that. Kiri is happy to speak to people individually
6:24
He couldn't do it there and then because he does have to do the job that he was asked to do, which is a very good country
6:30
He did. But he is not by any means saying that he's unwilling to speak to individual members of the cabinet
6:37
about this. That is, that's not, that's not accurate. You know the guy well. I do. And he
6:42
is somebody who has got lots of faults and like all of us and virtues. He's a stubborn man. No
6:47
he's a proud man. No, I don't think that's right. You don't think he's stubborn? No, I don't think he's stubborn. I think he is serious and responsible. And he's not
6:57
keep, you know, he's not in number 10 in some sort of... I'm not saying stubborn is necessarily
7:03
a bad thing. No, I would not call him stubborn. I think he's thoughtful and he's considered
7:09
but deeply, deeply responsible with a serious sense of duty and a desire to fulfil the task
7:15
that he was asked to do. I don't think that's the same as stubborn. What I'm getting to is I think
7:19
there is a kind of human tragedy going on here because he is doing his level best. And yesterday
7:25
in the speech, you know, he pulled everything out and people were looking for, as it were
7:28
a new Keir Starmer, a Keir Starmer with an extra gear, and he hasn't got that extra gear
7:34
He must be absolutely beating himself up in private about this It must be awful for him I don see that I see someone who is determined to do what they were asked to do because of the sense of responsibility and duty to the country that I referred to
7:47
I do think that there is something about, you know, things are not going well
7:52
We had some bruising elections on Thursday. We want to move faster as a government, for sure
8:00
And pretty much everyone you speak to who's ever been prime minister will talk about the frustrations of the first two years
8:06
Keir Starmer will be no different. So you think it's going to be a different mood going forward if he stays
8:10
I think it needs to be. And I think that is one of the messages that we need to take from what happened last week
8:15
Jenny, can I ask you about Andy Burnham? Now, I don't think Andy Burnham is the saviour or the god in the north or anything like that
8:23
He's not a god. He's not a god. He's not a saviour. But he's not just a sort of silly boy
8:27
He's a very, very clever politician who has a strong view of his own politics and what politics can be
8:33
He's a good communicator. Angela Rayner has said we should bring him back in again
8:39
And just now Harriet Harman, who's just been brought back into government by Keir, has said the same thing
8:43
Surely it is time to actually positively let Andy Burnham come back into the Commons
8:48
if that's what he wants. First of all, he has to want it. He does want it
8:52
He does want it, I can assure you. That any C needs to take a decision on what it thinks should happen
8:57
They have to. Yes, but look, I mean, Keir Starmer just has to wink or nod or tap his nose and it'll happen
9:03
I'm not so sure about that. I think I know members of the NEC and they take their responsibility to the party very seriously
9:10
They don't just have to think about who fancies who is prime minister
9:14
They also have to think about the financial well-being of the party, about the electoral success
9:19
You're thinking of Manchester by-election. I'm thinking of Manchester by-election. I'm also thinking of any by-election at the moment
9:25
And I think there is a lot of fantasy politics going on right now where people think
9:30
I'm not happy with where we are. Rather than try and improve where we are with our current team
9:38
they think, right, right thing to do, as the Tories did, get the next one in and let's see if that's any better
9:43
And then they think, oh, and then we'll get the person that I really, really want to be Prime Minister
9:47
without enough thought of exactly what that involves. Well, let's just pluck a name from the ether
9:54
Cyril Marmalade MP decides that he wants to stand... I definitely know who that is
9:59
definitely wants to stand against Keir Starmer and hey presto gets 81 people who are behind Cyril
10:04
Marmalade. In those circumstances, does Keir Starmer definitely fight that election? And would you
10:10
encourage him to? I would, absolutely. But I think the other thing that colleagues need to
10:15
think about is once that process is started, no one controls it. So Keir Starmer cannot say
10:23
I would like to continue to be Prime Minister. He can say that, but he doesn't get to choose
10:30
Whoever your favourite candidate might be doesn't get a clear run at it
10:34
This is the problem. There is a contest. You're saying be careful what you wish for
10:39
Well, I've been through this a few times, you might remember. And what happens is that contest
10:45
the decision about who leads the Labour Party, but more importantly, who is the Prime Minister of this country
10:50
becomes the property of the members of the Labour Party. And you're saying Labour doesn't need another Jeremy Corbyn
10:58
I'm saying the country doesn't need this kind of turmoil. All right, Jenny Chapman, Baroness Chapman
11:03
thank you very much indeed for coming in. Miata, he does have a point, doesn't he
11:07
We're in this strange position where nobody seems to be actually moving against Keir Starmer publicly
11:12
Yes, but look, I take a step back and I can only speak for myself. The decision to resign is not an easy decision
11:18
It's a very personal decision. And for me, what drove it is I was on the doorsteps for months
11:24
I had lots of conversations with people And certainly the story the message I heard loud and clear is that my constituents had lost confidence and trust in the prime minister And actually the big question in the context of
11:36
huge challenges that the country faces, where we have a mandate for change, a responsibility to
11:42
deliver that mandate for change, is does the prime minister have the confidence of the country
11:46
And is he able to deliver the scale and the pace of change that is required? My constituents was
11:51
clear. The answer to both of those questions was no. That's the view that I have taken. So I am
11:57
calling on him to set in place an orderly transition so that we can have a conversation
12:02
about how we change the country, who has the prospectus to do that at the scale that is
12:08
required, and then rally around that person. Do you at the moment have a candidate you would
12:14
like to see take over? Look, ultimately, what I want is that we have an orderly process
12:20
Yes, it feels very chaotic. None of us want this. This is not what the Labour Party does
12:25
We need a proper process that has all of our talents. And yes, that does include Andy Burnham
12:31
because he's a great politician. He's one of our most popular politicians. He has a track record in
12:35
Greater Manchester. We need all of our talent setting out their stall, looking at that manifesto
12:40
and showing us how they are going to deliver not just the spirit, but the absolute substance of that
12:46
manifesto in a way that will touch communities across the country, because that is what is
12:51
required of us. Yes, I know it is a difficult thing to walk out of government to make these
12:55
decisions. Are you working together with other ministers? Is there a coordinated aspect to this
13:01
No, look, I think it is a really personal thing for each of us. You know, many of my colleagues
13:06
both in the backbenchers, but also ministers as well, they've all had these conversations with
13:10
their constituents. And it was tough, and it was brutal, and the messages were really clear
13:14
And so everyone will be grappling with that fundamental judgment. Do we believe that the prime minister can deliver what it is our communities want
13:24
Do we believe he's got the confidence and trust? Because you need that to drive change
13:28
And if you don't do that, you cannot take the country with you. And then people will be making individual judgments
13:33
So this isn't coordinated. There is no particular block. There are lots of us from different, you know, wins of the party
13:40
But we have all responded to what we have heard from thousands and thousands of constituents based on conversations that we have had
13:49
I was very interested in Jess Phillips's resignation letter where she specifically talked about one aspect of protecting women and girls that she wanted to put through and basically said that Keir Starmer just talked about it and he delayed and he delayed and he did that and nothing happened
14:04
Is that a general perspective of the problem at the centre of government? Look, I think we as a government have done stuff
14:10
Have we moved with the clarity, the conviction and the pace that's required against the challenge that is in the country and the mandate that we have
14:19
The answer is no. And I think that is a fundamental question. You know, when people had conversations with me, the thing they said is, we want you to govern as Labour
14:27
We want you to be bold. We want you to be ambitious. And that is not what we're seeing. And ultimately, that comes from the top
14:33
Do you think after what's happened over the past couple of days, Keir Starmer can survive and govern effectively
14:40
I don't know. Look, that is a judgment for him. And the thing, you know, it is not an easy thing for colleagues to turn to the prime minister that we have a lot of respect for and a lot of gratitude for because he has always put country first
14:52
I hope he will continue putting country first. and ultimately what we are seeing is if you don't have the confidence of the public
15:00
if you cannot deliver the pace and scale of change that is required of all of us to deliver for the country
15:07
then it's incumbent on you to make that judgment that perhaps you are not the person to take us forward
15:12
and to set a proper orderly transition for us to be able to do that
15:17
A powerful message there, Mietta Fanabouli. Thank you very much indeed for coming in
#news