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‘We should all be scared and we’re not’ | Defence resignations throw No.10 into chaos
Jun 14, 2026
Armed forces minister Al Carns and Defence Secretary John Healey have both quit with a scathing attack on Sir Keir's military funding plans. The former defence secretary resigned after claiming the money in the defence investment plan would not be sufficient to defend the UK against threats. In response, Starmer said: “I will always do what is needed to keep our country safe.” Speaking to LBC for the first time since quitting, Mr Carns said: "I have never quit anything in my life. It's the first thing I've quit. But sometimes you've got to make a principled decision, and that's what I've done. And hopefully it will result in the right solution as we move forward." As Keir Starmer faces fresh blows, James O’Brien says the British public ‘are nowhere near spooked enough’ by military spending. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jamesobrien #news #uknews #ukpolitics #keirstarmer #defence #military #debate #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
There's a clip of me somewhere, not from here, from Have I Got News For You
0:04
describing Elon Musk as a Bond villain in Waiting. I'm beginning to feel like Cassandra. I really am
0:10
At the time, I think everybody thought he was a relatively innocuous character, but maybe not. I must have got the idea from somewhere
0:16
It just occurred to me listening to the news bulletin there and looking at his continuing amplification of what is, I think
0:23
pretty close to stochastic terrorism. I'll look at the definition of that word a little later
0:28
or those words a little later in this program. But I don't think there's a phone in there
0:32
Because if I said to you, is Nigel Farage indulging in stochastic terrorism
0:36
when he chooses his words very carefully and provokes violence, then I don't think there's a debate
0:44
It's a funny one. But quite why he's not coming in for more rounded condemnation
0:51
is a question for the ages. I mean, it's easy to answer in some quarters and corners
0:55
but not in others. but stochastic terrorism is a pretty hefty step
0:59
upon the path to the really, really bad stuff and it's now happening in plain sight
1:04
on all our news platforms but I don't think anyone can debate it
1:09
I mean the debate would be do you like it or not I love the stochastic terrorism
1:12
I love seeing the fires in Belfast I love seeing the various weirdos and criminals
1:18
in Southampton lobbying stuff at the police but I don't think there's a debate
1:23
of course it's stochastic terrorism But we're not going to talk about that
1:27
Of course we're not going to talk about that first up this morning. We're going to talk about defence
1:33
But we're going to do it in a way that may be tricky, but I think is probably the only honest way to do it
1:38
It's certainly the only patriotic way to do it. We're going to detach in the first instance
1:45
because, look, make no mistake, this is absolutely disastrous for Keir Starmer
1:50
To lose one defence minister may be considered a misfortune, but to lose two is at the very least careless
1:56
It's disastrous. I mean, there is such a miasma of failure around his premiership at the moment
2:04
that you just don't know whether Healy and Carnes would have walked the plank
2:08
if Starmer's position wasn't already close to terminal. I don't know. They are never going to say so
2:15
You'll have to wait for the memoirs. But once you have that feeling in the air
2:20
and listen, I don't know whether it's... something you like or something you don't like
2:25
it doesn't matter. You can't deny that the feeling is in the air. You may think it's horribly unfair
2:29
but you can't deny that the feeling is in the air. Then everything changes
2:35
All of the calculus changes. The political calculus changes. You make a decision
2:40
Shall I resign if you're in a cabinet led by an effective and popular prime minister
2:45
The question of whether or not you should resign is very different from the question
2:50
of whether or not you should resign when the Prime Minister is or is perilously close to
2:54
being a lame duck, a lame duck Prime Minister. I don't know, actually
3:00
That's not by far, miles away from being the most interesting element
3:05
of this entire conversation. But the point stands. The point is worth making
3:13
Would they have gone? So people are comparing it to Michael Heseltine's resignation as a defence
3:19
But I say people. but I think it may have been a headline in the Telegraph, so I probably shouldn't have paid too much attention to it
3:24
But Heseltine resigned from Thatcher's cabinet when Thatcher was in her pomp over Westland, wasn't it
3:32
And his battle, I think, with Leon Britton. I did an A-level project on this, but my memory's a little bit patchy
3:40
And so I don't know that comparisons are valid, but it is a point of principle
3:44
I suspect that when Ben Wallace stepped down as Secretary of State for Defence, It was for reasons similar to John Healy, but he didn't feel the need to say so because of where we were in the electoral cycle and possibly the sort of political calculus being different, as I just mentioned
4:00
So the thing I think it is important to do differently is actually in the first instance
4:08
having acknowledged that Starmer is in absolutely hideous trouble and probably toast, almost certainly toast
4:15
depending partly on what happens in Makerfield. But it not a partisan conversation this It a patriotic conversation Do you remember sometimes when we come off the back of PMQs and we reflect upon how it used to be relatively normal for the two
4:34
main party leaders to unite on issues of national interest and national security. We see occasional
4:41
glimpses of it now, but Kemi Bader not, bless her, can't really ever bring herself to do anything
4:47
that would be considered supportive of Keir Starmer. You know, if Keir Starmer discovered a cure for
4:53
the common cold, Kemi Bader not would complain that he hadn't found Shergar. If Keir Starmer
5:00
discovered the philosopher's stone that allows us to turn base metal into gold, Kemi Bader not
5:09
would complain that Lord Lucan was still missing. I mean, it is brilliant. I think she's absolutely
5:13
wonderful. I cannot tell you, you'd have to speak to Eleanor to understand just how much I love her
5:20
I think she's fantastic. Every time she appears on the television or the radio
5:25
I turn everything else off. I put my phone away. I just sit there basking in a sort of warm glow of epic admiration
5:32
If I had one scintilla of Kemi Baden-Ock's self-belief, I'd be Pope
5:39
I'd be Pope now. If I had one ounce of her self-regard and self-belief
5:44
that confidence, that utterly baseless confidence, I reckon I could be Pope
5:49
Even though I'm married with children, I reckon I could pull it off. I reckon, well, I could certainly, well, maybe I'm
5:55
if I had one ounce of Kemi-Baner not self-belief, I would have convinced myself that I could be Pope
6:01
and that I'd be a very good Pope and that I should be Pope
6:05
and that I would be Pope if it wasn't for you pesky kids. I think she's magnificent
6:09
And it just gets better and better and better. This is extraordinary detachment from observable reality
6:15
How can you not envy that? Imagine living a life untrammeled by facts
6:19
and observable evidence. Anyway, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about defence
6:26
and we're talking about the fact that the only patriotic position to adopt
6:30
is the sane one, which recognises defence ministers all agree, after 10 minutes in the department
6:39
that we need loads more money spending on defence. They all do. Whatever, well, it's only Labour or Conservative at the moment
6:46
but they all agree on that. and then prime ministers don't give them what they want
6:52
And again, I mean, this goes back a very long time. I don't think this is one of those problems
6:57
that you can apportion entirely or blame entirely on the Conservative inheritance
7:04
I really don't. I think Starmer, obviously, in Healy's resignation letter, has chosen categorically and clearly
7:12
not to meet the pledge that he'd made to NATO. The letter is pretty unequivocal
7:18
So, yes, they inherited a mess, but the decision not to take money from Peter to give it to Paul
7:25
in the Ministry of Defence, that has been taken. I think you'd have to be pretty daft not to think that
7:32
Rachel Reeves has prevailed. Rachel Reeves has triumphed over John Healy. I think it's obvious and pretty much Occam's razor
7:44
the only really realistic explanation of what has gone on. And the thing for me on a morning like this
7:55
is we actually don't know. So if you set aside partisanship, I'm quite proud of the fact that if we were having this conversation
8:06
after a Conservative Secretary of State for Defence had resigned, we'd be having exactly the same conversation
8:12
I think it's pathetic, and I use that word carefully. It's absolutely pathetic to try to turn everything into partisan politics
8:21
unless you're Kami Beda, who's magnificent. But for anybody else, trying to turn everything into partisan politics
8:27
utterly denies the existence of the national interest. Do you see what I mean
8:32
You should want, as I did, Rishi Sunak to do all right as prime minister
8:38
because you care about the country that he's leading. It was harder with Johnson and Trust because that would be a bit like wishing for Father Christmas to visit in June
8:45
You kind of know it was never ever going to happen. But there's still somewhere inside you
8:49
You kind of wanted David Cameron to do okay. Certainly the first term in 2010 Second term having made the promise about the referendum and then accidentally winning was less easy of course to follow But we seem to have forgotten and I guilty of this please don think I preaching or lecturing you
9:06
but we do seem to have forgotten, don't we, about the national interest
9:12
It's all about the partisan, the party interest. It's all about getting one over on the other lot
9:18
The lefties, of whom there are none really in this country in positions of power at the moment
9:24
Or the fascists, of whom there are loads. But where we go as a conversation this morning
9:32
I think has to be detached from partisanship and focused entirely on the patriotic or the national interest
9:39
Because here's the thing, right? I'm going to ask you a question that I don't think anyone can answer
9:47
What would we spend this money on? You could say drones, right
9:52
or cyber warfare. But we don't know what that means. Where would the drones go
9:58
So I have a genuine curiosity about who is right. My instincts..
10:07
Good Lord, I thought it was the other way around. I'm doing a heart-head dichotomy, right
10:12
that we often do together. I'm saying my heart goes this way and my head goes that way
10:16
and then we'll have a chat together and try to work out which one is right
10:20
your heart or your head. So I thought that my head would be in favour of more defence spending
10:28
and my heart, I don't know which way round it is. I have to be completely honest with you
10:34
The fact that all of the defence ministers insist, regardless of what party they belong to
10:40
insist that we need more spending, makes me think that they're right
10:44
The fact that they come from both parties persuades me that they must be right
10:48
because we unite so rarely now in this country. but they could have all gone native you know all they ever hear from members of the military as the
10:57
secretary of state for defense is we need more money minister we need more money secretary of
11:01
state we need more money um al khan said to nick ferrari this morning the government has not done
11:07
a good enough job of explaining the risks that we face don't take my word for it finding the money
11:12
is an issue for the prime minister what we really need is an honest discussion with the population
11:17
as to where that money needs to come from and use really innovative ways and every means possible
11:22
to get the right money for defence. But I also challenge back into the defence system
11:26
to make sure the defence investment plan is learning all those lessons from Ukraine and fighting the next war, not the last one
11:31
You say an honest conversation. Just elaborate a bit on that, if you would, Mr Karl. Well, I'd like to be, first of all
11:36
in national conversation with the population to just demonstrate the threats that we face
11:40
£15 billion worth of cyber attacks, 30% increase in Russian surface and subsurface activity
11:46
activity in the high north, a war in the Middle East, a war in Ukraine that's caused more casualties
11:51
than America took in the entire Second World War. The world is an exceptionally dangerous place and
11:56
sometimes I don't think we as government make that message clear and concise to the population
12:01
I mean he's absolutely right isn't he because one of the things we repeatedly observe on this
12:06
program is that there is no there are currently no votes in increased defense spending. If there was
12:14
then the dichotomy I've described wouldn't exist. If there were votes in it, if there were loads of votes in it
12:20
then previous Conservative Prime Ministers and the current Labour Prime Minister would have done it
12:26
They would have delivered on the kind, not all of the demands, but they would have done enough to keep John Healy and Al Karns in post
12:32
Quick, Mayor Culper, I think yesterday's prediction that Al Karns was likely to be eschewing
12:36
for the next Secretary of State for Defence is not going to go down as one of my wisest predictions of all time
12:41
And we probably owe Boris Johnson an apology as well. for mocking him after Russia invaded Ukraine
12:47
and his claim that tank warfare was effectively over because there were a hell of a lot of tanks deployed in Ukraine
12:53
but they now last for an average of one and a half days before they're destroyed by drones
12:59
So I think we are in the last gasp. We are in the final chapter of tank warfare
13:06
land-based tank warfare. Drones seem to have changed everything. But Al Karnes' words this morning really haunt me
13:13
Because you and I don't know whether he's right or not. It feels like there's a massive threat
13:21
£15 billion of cyber warfare. Can you put your hand up now and tell me what do you spend the money on to stop that from happening Shall I wait Increase in Russian activity in the north northern hemisphere
13:37
Okay. Why should I be worried about that in Kidderminster? I mean, I kind of know I should, but I couldn't explain to my mum why she should
13:48
Mum's currently in Kidderminster. What else was on the list? Play it again, Keith
13:53
I should have taken some notes and then we'll get stuck into the questions. Finding the money is an issue for the Prime Minister
13:58
What we really need is an honest discussion with the population as to where that money needs to come from
14:03
and use really innovative ways and every means possible to get the right money for defence
14:08
But I also challenge back into the defence system to make sure the defence investment plan
14:12
is learning all those lessons from Ukraine and fighting the next war, not the last one
14:16
You say an honest conversation. Just elaborate a bit on that if you would, Miss Cun. Well, I'd like to be, first of all
14:20
in national conversation with the population to just demonstrate the threats that we face
14:25
£15 billion worth of cyber attacks, 30% increase in Russian surface and subsurface activity
14:31
in the high north, a war in the Middle East, a war in Ukraine that's caused more casualties
14:35
than America took in the entire Second World War. The world is an exceptionally dangerous place
14:40
and sometimes I don't think we as government make that message clear and concise to the population
14:44
Can you make it clear and concise? I mean, I don't know whether or not this is a bit irresponsible
14:52
but how would you frighten the population into accepting that we need a hell of a lot more military spending
14:57
Because if you do that, then you make Keir Starmer's job easier. We are nowhere near sufficiently spooked, are we
15:05
I'm not. And I've still got, this is what I mean by heart versus head. Heart says we probably should be, head says I'm not
15:10
Or head says we probably should be, heart says I'm not. £15 billion of cyber attacks on us
15:16
Does anyone know what that did, what that meant? Can anyone remember what that looked like? 0345 6060973
15:22
30% increase in Russian activity in the north. Why should people in Kidderminster care about that
15:29
Obviously they should, right? But the failure to articulate why is what Al Kahn's is talking about
15:35
0345 6060973. War in the Middle East. Why would spending more money on British defence
15:40
make the blindest bit of difference to a war we're not involved in? 0345 6060973
15:45
and war in Ukraine, which we do support. And obviously, if we had more stuff to give to Volodymyr Zelensky
15:52
we would be able to give it to him. But again, it doesn't necessarily make the case for epic increases
15:58
massive increases in military spending. So I don't think this is an irresponsible question
16:03
What are we supposed to be scared of? What should we be scared of
16:08
Because if the population were scared, is scared a good word to use
16:12
Would you prefer a different word? I'm going to go with scared until you come up with a better one
16:17
what are we supposed to be scared of? and details, specific you can't just say, Mike, a murderous fascist criminal
16:24
is invading an advanced European democracy we stop it or we live it
16:28
I think you're right, but that's not going to scare me or my mum, or Keith
16:33
Keith, are you scared? Keith's not scared we should all be scared, this is the topic, right
16:38
we should all be scared, and we're not if Putin invaded Guernsey, we'd be scared
16:44
If Putin invaded Guernsey and Keir Starmer announced that he was taking money out of the NHS and putting it into defence
16:49
we'd all go, OK, yeah, fine, I'll have to wait a bit longer for my operation. If Putin invaded Guernsey and Keir Starmer announced that
16:56
I mean, obviously the right wing would be up in arms unless we took money away from disabled people and the truly poor
17:03
but whatever he announced, you know, it's like the church bells, isn't it
17:07
and the metal fences, we're at war. so everyone's going to have to make sacrifices
17:11
everyone's going to have to pull together but we don't think we're at war what would it take to persuade the British public
17:18
that they are imperiled imperiled with an M or in peril with an N
17:24
what would it actually take I genuinely don't know 03456060973 I don't know whether we need to be scared or educated or both
17:33
or whether if we were educated properly we'd be scared so what should we be scared of
17:39
What do we need to be educated about? 0345 6060 973. And genuine question, and this is possibly one of those questions
17:48
that might tempt people onto the programme who never thought they'd ring a radio station in their lives
17:54
What would we actually spend this money on
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