Up next in 10
The Prime Minister unveiled plans to overhaul housing, energy, water and the scrapping of the triple lock in a bid to restore 'hope' to Britain.
At the Labour Party conference in Liverpool, Burnham said "Britain has been on the wrong path for a long time", as he set out Labour's plans for change.
Was his speech a success?
Andrew Marr is joined by Culture Secretary Lisa Nandy, former safeguarding minister Jess Phillips, and Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee Emily Thornberry.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
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0:00
Well, Andy Burnham promised a different kind of speech today, and by God he delivered one
0:07
At one point, remembering his father who died recently, he broke down completely
0:13
We keep being told that politicians put it all on, that they're not authentic, that they're not real
0:18
But the best, the most sophisticated actor in the world couldn't have faked this
0:23
The United Kingdom my dad represented is the one I believe in
0:29
A union of nations that gave trade unions and the cooperative movement to the world
0:37
The National Health Service, a country that stood up to fascism, a country of solidarity, not separation
0:47
That's the Britain that my dad represented. A few moments earlier, he'd had what actors would call a dry
0:56
He had ground to a halt, completely unable to keep speaking, and had to be revived by spontaneous applause
1:03
But how different was this speech really? He'd promised us he wouldn't make the usual tub-thumping kind of political speech
1:11
So it was a pity, frankly, that about a minute and a half after that promise
1:16
he made a pugnacious attack on Tory privatisation, privatisation, which had the entire hall on its feet, cheering
1:23
Never mind. There was no personal attack on Nigel Farage, there was no attempt to do down Kemi Badenock
1:31
or Zach Polanski. There was plenty of politics in the speech, but very little political point scoring
1:37
Almost no rah-rah-rah, hooray for us, aren't the other lot awful. And to that extent, it was very different
1:45
There were big promises on council housing, the future of the water industry and above
1:50
all a new national care service to be funded by turning the triple lock on pensions into
1:55
a less expensive double lock. That in itself is a gigantic political gamble which scares some Labour people witless
2:05
But if you're looking for a glimpse of the future of politics in this country, I would encourage you to think about this
2:11
I am old enough to remember Neil Kinnock at his very best in oratory
2:16
and Tony Blair likewise. And rather to my surprise, I have to report that Andy Burnham
2:22
is at least as good a platform speaker as either of them, and perhaps better
2:28
But I also think he's a man with a political strategy. We've been complaining about too much of the happy, smiley, touchy-feely TikTok videos
2:37
too much of the warm bath of patriotic optimism and not enough hard edge
2:42
not enough running towards difficult arguments from Andy Burnham, well, this evening we cannot say that any longer
2:50
Burnham promised a new look at electoral reform. He promised a completely different offer for pensioners
2:56
calling politicians of his generation, including himself, too cowardly to try to fix today's broken system of social care
3:03
And he suggested a much closer relationship with the EU, without necessarily going right back in
3:09
Now, those three things, voting reform, Europe, social care, coincidentally or not, lead you directly to the heart of today's Liberal Democrats
3:20
And I can see some kind of future coalition politics written all over today's speech
3:26
Basically, the new Prime Minister believes he can unite the centre-left of Britain and beat the right, transforming the direction and the meaning of British politics
3:36
Now, he may be right, he may be wrong. But meanwhile, this was a punchy, emotional and coherent belter of a speech
3:45
There are lots of questions, of course there are, there always are. But here is a real leader who believes in himself
3:52
and more encouraging still, seems to believe in the rest of us as well
3:57
Let's begin tonight with one of Burnham's cabinet allies, the Culture Secretary, Lisa Nandy
4:02
who joined me to give her reaction to the speech just before we came on air
4:07
Lisa Nandy, thank you very much for joining LBC. We can talk about the speech in more detail
4:12
but the really big news in it, I guess for a lot of people, will be the National Care Service, an entirely new service
4:18
which Andy Burnham said would be as big a thing, really, as the NHS when it first arrived after the war
4:23
Can I just ask you about the money side of this? Yeah. Let's assume, you know, for the sake of this conversation
4:28
it is the right thing to be doing, But we don't know how much it's going to cost, and it's almost impossible to say
4:34
because it depends how much you pay people, how many people use it for what, and how much it saves the NHS, etc
4:39
But it's going to be a lot of money. Is the message today that it can be funded entirely
4:44
by the change in the triple lock, or is it going to require extra taxation
4:48
Well, like you said, it depends on how ambitious you are, and you'll have heard the determination in Andy's voice
4:55
and there was a moment in the speech, which some of your listeners might not have heard
4:59
where he just sort of paused to go on to talk about his dad and it was a very emotional moment
5:03
He basically dried up or broke down or whatever you say. He did. I mean, it's still incredibly raw
5:08
It was only a week or so ago that this happened. But I think every family in the country would recognise that
5:14
And so what we've asked Louise Casey to do is, as part of this commission on social care
5:20
is to look at the different options for us. What we're proposing is that everybody in England
5:26
would be able to get basic care So things like washing, help with eating
5:33
the sorts of things that help you to remain in your own home. I was going to say, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to go to a care home
5:38
You can stay at home, but someone will come and help you stay there. I just come back to this sort of basic point, really
5:43
It could require extra general taxation to pay for it, couldn't it
5:47
It could require additional funding, but the first step, and it's a bold step
5:52
it is one that is not without political pain, is Andy's decision to, after the next election
5:58
adjust the triple lock, which will, we think, free up around £15 billion a year
6:05
by the end of the 2030s, which is a significant investment into an area that
6:11
frankly, Andrew, I think has just been neglected really shamefully by successive governments for generations
6:17
The reason I'm asking, obviously, is that £15 billion is less than many of the estimates
6:22
of the National Care Service, which could be 18 20 even 30 billion depending on what kind of salaries are being paid and the rest of it Yeah I mean I seen one estimate that was done by one of the think tanks that came in at around 18 billion
6:35
But there are also, you know, looked at the example in Scotland where elements of basic care are paid for
6:41
That typically is worth around 10,000 to 14,000 per person a year
6:46
So there are different estimates around this. And like you said, it does depend on how much people are paid
6:50
It depends on how much care is needed. but don't forget as well that there is also what this will do for the national health service i
6:57
mean i can't be alone in being touched by this crisis every family in the country is and a couple
7:03
of years ago my dad who was then in his 80s went into hospital with a kidney infection he ended up
7:08
in hospital for pushing two months because we couldn't get the social care package sorted that
7:14
would enable him to go home this will have a really significant impact on the national health
7:18
service as well. Bad for your dad, bad for the NHS and generally bad. But you know the political
7:24
risk, you've alluded to them already. Kemi Badenock will stand up at the beginning of the
7:28
Conservative Party conference and she will say, look, Labour are going to rob pensioners, they're
7:33
going to take away your pension or part of your pension. Pensioners, you absolutely have to vote
7:38
Tory. Well, I know the script because not only have I heard it for a long time, actually we've used it
7:44
as a party before. It was, I think, 2010 when Andy Burnham was the Health Secretary when he tried to
7:50
reform social care. The Tories called it a death tax and that was the end of that. In 2017, Theresa
7:56
May put forward proposals to try and reform social care. We called it a dementia tax and that was the
8:01
end of that. We just can't keep going on like this and actually of all the things that Andy was talking
8:06
about today, probably the most significant is his absolute steely determination to do politics
8:12
differently, to invite people in to work with us, to try and find common ground. But he also said
8:17
today in the speech, look, in the end, though, I came back to Westminster to fix the things that
8:22
are broken and to do what I believe is right. So I hope they won't do it. But if they do do it
8:27
we've been here before and we have a Prime Minister who has prepared, as he put it, to push
8:31
through the political pain barrier in order to get this done for families up and down the length
8:36
and breadth of this country. I like this idea of cross-party consensus, but I think when it comes
8:40
to Europe and Brexit, it is complete fantasy. There is nothing in the country
8:44
that divides us more than this. In your view, do you think you will, as a
8:48
party, go into the next election committed to a completely different relationship with the EU
8:52
up to and possibly including rejoining it? It's for every generation to decide what they want to do with
8:58
our relationship with the European Union but I think this conversation Andy
9:02
started today is really important. Brexit hasn't worked, it hasn't delivered and I think people in every part of the country
9:08
including where he and I live in Wigan And just know that lots of people supported Brexit, but it hasn't delivered on the promises that we made
9:15
We don't have more control over our lives, over immigration, over the economy than we had a decade ago
9:20
And I think he's right to say that we've got to be pragmatic about fixing it. I guess where I would just disagree with you, though, is that I don't think it is as divisive an issue as we allowed it to become
9:30
Because although there are people who have very, very strong views about our future relationship with Europe
9:35
I think most of this country was always pretty pragmatic about it. We allowed that debate to become very polarised, very angry and very toxic
9:43
But if you say to people, do you want to make it easier for people to be able to travel
9:47
And do you want to make it easier for businesses to be able to do business and to trade
9:52
I think most people agree with that. So, you know, that's the conversation he's starting
9:56
He's not being prescriptive about the answers. But we do need to settle the question of where we lie in relation to our closest neighbours and allies
10:04
Is this the moment to really reopen the argument in a full-hearted way
10:08
in the way that it did not happen under Keir Starmer, let's be honest. There was a poll recently suggesting that 99% of British constituencies
10:15
if asked now, would want to return to the EU, and a grand total of four constituencies would go the other way
10:22
Yeah, I mean, obviously there are trade-offs, though, because trying to re-enter the European Union
10:28
would mean us having to reopen the negotiation. There would be terms on which the European Union would want us to re-enter
10:35
that we might not believe were in Britain's interests. So I think we need to be clear-eyed about this decision and this conversation
10:42
But I do think we ought to be able to have a conversation about these things as a nation. And what you really got, what Andy said to me earlier in the week that he was going to try and do with this speech
10:50
was something very different, which was to start having a very honest and open conversation with the public
10:56
about the problems that we've got, about our need to confront them. And there are some areas where he's done huge amounts of thinking over many, many years
11:04
like the National Care Service, where he's very clear on the answers to those questions
11:09
There are other areas where he thinks we really do need to build a consensus in the country
11:13
in order to do better than we've done in recent years. It was very different. There wasn't a single jibe at Kemi Badeknoch or at any of the other party leaders
11:22
No jokes at Zach Polanski's expense, not even a hostile reference to Nigel Farage
11:28
Do you think the other parties are going to reciprocate? I hope that it starts a better debate
11:34
I think the public desperately need and want to hear it from us. I think people find it really refreshing when we do that
11:40
I also think, if I'm honest, I think that the populism that we've seen in recent years on both left and right
11:46
I think is because of us. I think the centre ground of British politics just has not acknowledged
11:53
and been willing to grapple with the difficult choices and trade-offs that we face as a country
11:59
We haven't been willing to think big enough. We haven't been willing to engage in the battle of ideas
12:04
And a lot of the sort of punch and Judy politics that you've seen has been to fill a vacuum that has existed
12:11
which, frankly, I think Andy Burnham called time on today. He's starting an argument about voting reform
12:17
which a lot of your party will be against. If I think about that, and I think about the emphasis on social care
12:23
something that Ed Davies speaks about almost every week in the House of Commons, and I think about Europe
12:28
It seems to me that we are beginning to see the geography of British politics changing shape
12:33
and that some kind of grand coalition or alliance on the centre-left of politics is beginning to become likely
12:40
Well, look, I'm someone who, you know, long before it was fashionable, I actually wrote a book with Caroline Lucas, who was then the leader of the Greens
12:46
and with a Liberal Democrat about the need for us all to cooperate more
12:51
I'm not wrong, am I? I don think you wrong I think Andy is very firmly wedded to this idea that we should be working with other political parties in order to find common ground and solve some of the challenges that this country has
13:05
I think the clash of ideas will always exist and it will always be important. I don't think we should shy away from that
13:11
But, you know, when it comes to issues like social care, we're never, ever going to solve them
13:15
unless we're prepared to find the common ground, to compromise on the things we disagree about
13:19
and I think the public will reward us for that. Have you heard a better speech from a Labour leader ever
13:26
No, I haven't actually and it's strange. For those people who've never been to party conference
13:31
which is, let's face it, basically everybody apart from some odd people like us
13:36
there's this moment afterwards where all of the journalists come rushing in
13:40
and try and interview the cabinet to get immediate reactions to the speech. For the first time I was actually quite speechless
13:47
I think it was personal but it was big, it was ideas, it was bold. I mean, you know, I've been friends with Andy a long time. He really has spent decades
13:55
thinking about this and building up to this moment. But I think it was what we needed
13:59
not for the Labour movement. He wasn't really talking to the Labour movement, he was talking to the country, and I think we really needed to hear it
14:05
One very final question. As Culture Secretary, right at the beginning of the speech, he said
14:09
we've all got to stop doom scrolling along little films, putting the country down and stand up for
14:14
this country. In terms of the effect of those little films and TikTok and the rest of it
14:19
on our political debate, does more need to be done? Yeah, and it will be done
14:24
I think what you can expect to see from me and from Andy is a much more interventionist government in this space
14:29
I think we've outsourced the online world to the private sphere for the last four decades
14:34
and I can't think of a single moment in history when we've had new technology that has upended society to this extent
14:41
where we've just essentially abdicated our responsibility. So, yes, you can expect to see a lot more from us on that front
14:48
Well, there's a very interesting answer as well. Lisa and Andy, thank you so much for coming in. Let's get the reaction to the Prime Minister's set-piece speech
14:54
from two backbenchers. Now, firstly, the Labour MP for Birmingham and Yardley
14:58
and the former Minister for Safeguarding and Violence Against Women and Girls, Jess Phillips
15:04
Jess, big picture, under Keir Starmer, many people thought we were heading for a reformed government
15:09
and that is no longer true. Is that the big picture? That is. That's the way it certainly feels here
15:15
I mean, obviously, never count your chickens, but I felt like a sort of existential sense that we were heading that way
15:23
and I don't think that that is how I feel today and so I'll take each day as it comes
15:30
but yeah, I think Andy Burnham has afforded the party an opening in conversation and an opportunity to trust
15:40
and I think that today in his speech he gave... you know i really like it i believe genuinely the general public they don't have to agree with
15:49
everything you say if they believe what that you think it and you think it's for the best and you're
15:54
trying to do your best they will give you a shed load of uh of slack and i think he he did that
16:01
today and so i was quite pleased to hear it and do you think in a funny way that moment where he
16:06
broke down or was unable to keep speaking helps him because that's not the kind of thing you can
16:11
fake? Oh, God, yeah, you absolutely can't fake it. I mean, look
16:14
his bereavement is incredibly recent, and even if it wasn't, I think in those circumstances
16:20
I might have had a weep. But, yeah, look, I think that he
16:26
came across as human in lots of ways, but the tearfulness is really..
16:31
I suppose one of the big criticisms you could make of the speech
16:34
is that there are lots and lots of promises. Many, many more council houses
16:39
dilapidated houses being built, National Care Service etc etc etc but nowhere was there any reference to how to fund most of these things
16:47
where's the tax going to come from and if you're a Labour MP you might be thinking
16:51
this means some really bad news in the budget and brace for that
16:55
I mean look I think as an MP at all in Labour or otherwise over the past 15 years
17:03
bad news in a budget is always what you're sort of trying to expect
17:08
but actually I don't think so I think, look, maybe in the short term that there is issues
17:14
but Andy Burnham's central premise is that we are currently paying for the failure anyway
17:18
And in my area of expertise around violence against women and girls and housing
17:22
and some of the things you talked about, about landlords and council housing, which is very alive in my constituency
17:28
my God, we are spending absolutely hundreds of millions just in Birmingham alone
17:34
on dreadful housing that is making people sick, that is then costing us more
17:38
I mean, domestic abuse costs the state $88 billion a year. So, you know, like, but, and actually, he talked about the triple lock
17:47
and said something incredibly brave about spending. So, I mean, I shall await hearing what is in the budget as much as anyone else
17:56
If I were to say that I had any criticism of Andy Burnham's speech today
18:00
and I would say the same about some of the, what came out of John Healy's speech
18:06
is that I would just like them to couch some of the everyone in the country
18:12
being about, I'd like some hope for her. I was going to ask you about that, actually
18:17
because, you know, before the speech, there's lots of criticism of Andy Burnham that it's all pints
18:22
and, you know, it's pints and football and oasis and rah, rah, rah
18:25
It's a very male kind of vibe. If there is a vibe, I don't know what vibe means
18:29
If there is a vibe, it's a male vibe. There were things in it around homelessness, housing, council housing
18:34
and fundamentally social care, and I don't just mean because the vast majority
18:38
which makes up 5% of the entire workforce, is in social care, are women
18:43
But also, as a woman who cares for her elderly father myself
18:50
like, actually, the effect on the life of women giving out free labour in the country
18:55
I just would like to have heard that quite a lot more explicitly
18:59
So there is loads of stuff in there that is for women. and you know I like a point as much as the next person
19:04
mind you I do whenever anyone in parliament refers to football as an ogy start talking about my period
19:10
and I will continue to do that for the rest of my life tends to shut the chat well also it's just like not everything is about
19:16
bloody football but I just want to hear that they are explicitly thinking that that why they should do it because a lot of the nostalgia patter about what has gone wrong in the last 40 years there is some groups in society that have really advanced in the last 40 years
19:34
through progressive politics, hard won by Labour people who were in that room
19:40
And just a little nod to the fact that nostalgia sometimes can be a bit rose-tinted
19:46
especially for those of us with wombs. Jess, I said at the top of the show
19:50
that if you look at the three of the big themes electoral reform care
19:57
something Ed Davey goes on about the whole time and Europe you could see this as the beginning of a reshaping
20:03
of the political landscape in the direction of some kind of grand coalition
20:07
of the centre left That is exactly how I saw it I won't lie
20:12
I don't really care about electoral reform that much It's not something that comes up with my constituents
20:18
It's not something that I'm particularly bothered about. But on the other two regards, I do think that he is absolutely talking to an electoral grouping of people
20:29
that I feel like for a while people in the Labour movement and voters felt like was being ignored
20:37
All right, Jess, thank you very much for that. Because another criticism that's been levelled at the new Prime Minister so far
20:43
is that he may prioritise domestic politics again and again over international affairs
20:48
something that's at odds with the dangerous world we live in. Did anything in the speech counteract that
20:53
I'm joined now by Dame Emily Thornberry, Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee
20:57
Emily, thanks for coming in. I don't think I've ever heard a speech from a Labour leader
21:02
or any major political leader with as little foreign affairs in it as this one
21:08
Yeah, well, there was a lot to cram into an hour. I mean, he did talk about Ukraine
21:14
Very, very briefly. And he talked about the importance of security, and he talked about Russia
21:19
And then he talked about there's lots of different types of security, and then he talked about social security
21:24
and about us being secure as a society and not dividing amongst ourselves
21:29
But I'm not wrong, Anna. There was very little foreign affairs compared with many speeches
21:34
Yeah. Yeah. Let me ask you particularly about something that's been raised a lot online since the speech was made
21:40
which is that he is standing there as Prime Minister in part
21:44
because John Healey resigned from Keir Starmer's government because of the lack of funding for defence
21:50
and he then became Chancellor and the rest of it. And you would have thought that big challenge
21:55
how are we going to fund a better defence for this country, would have been big in the speech, and it really wasn't mentioned at all
22:02
Well, I don't agree with the premise of your question. I don't think that it was John Healey that resulted in Andy Burnham becoming Prime Minister
22:12
I think it was because the public had decided that they did not want to have the Prime Minister in place
22:21
and wanted to have a change, and we responded to that. I think that's the..
22:25
It was a series of complex events, but certainly part of it was John Healey, and certainly part of the big issue at the end of the Keir Starmer government
22:33
and the beginning of this one is how the heck are we going to fund a stronger defence system for this country
22:38
in the short term? And again, I couldn't hear anything about that. Yeah, but we are having a budget in a couple of weeks
22:44
And so I think it is difficult. I mean, the timing of all this is difficult
22:48
because we do have party conferences that are bang up right against the edge of the budgets
22:56
I mean, I am beginning to think that big fiscal events like budgets
23:00
are not really for this time because there's such a big build-up
23:06
there's so much speculation, it's very destabilising, then you get the budget, then you get all the ysis
23:12
You know, I just wonder whether the time for, you know, a guy coming out of Number 11 Downing Street waving a red box
23:19
and then standing, you know, with their glass of whisky and fixing the economy of the country
23:24
is really something for today. That is a really good thought. I think I agree with that
23:31
Can I ask you about one other big aspect of the conference? We didn't hear much of it again in the speech today
23:36
but yesterday was very much about Gaza and the two-state solution and Palestine and the rest of it
23:43
How do you see relations between your party and the pro-Gaza movement
23:48
the people who are so angry with Labour so recently? Well, I think it was important for Ed to acknowledge
23:57
that the Labour Party had got it wrong in our relationship with Israel
24:04
and the way in which we should have stood up on Gaza much more than we did
24:09
And as somebody who was involved in trying to get the government
24:13
to change their policy, I'm really pleased that that has been acknowledged
24:17
that it was a mistake, because I just feel like we would often get there in the end
24:22
but it would take too long. And by the time we got there, people were just like
24:26
Well, yes, of course, but you should have done that a year ago. And that's kind of how I felt quite often
24:31
So I am pleased that we have kind of got ahead of it. Has it gone far enough
24:37
Well, there are a few things. I mean, there are a few things that I would wish that we did as well
24:41
And I will, you know, tell I have told Ed about them. But talking about arms supplies, for instance
24:48
I think the parts for the aeroplane. So there's a big fight
24:53
So at the moment, we're not selling arms to Israel that could be used offensively in Gaza or on the West Bank
25:02
But we are still selling arms to Israel if they need them for a defence
25:07
And it seems that those two things can be distinguished. But there's an exception, which is the parts for the F-45, because that's part of an aeroplane that's made by many different countries
25:17
I would just say that all we have to do is stick a label on the box saying not for use in Israel
25:25
And we wouldn't then be disrupting the supply chain apart from for Israel
25:31
And I think the F-45s have been used in bombing raids in Lebanon, in Syria and in Gaza
25:39
And I don't think we should be selling parts for those planes. Emily, thank you very much
25:44
We could have gone on, but for those hearing a huge amount of noise behind us
25:48
that is either two factions of the Labour Party going at each other with bricks and broken bottles
25:53
or something else happening. I have no idea
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