Up next in 10
LBC callers react to Reform's ongoing donation scandal and debate whether the party is 'fit for government'.
00:00 | Ali Miraj reacts to the ongoing row
10:34 | 'Reform's lost its way', says Mark
13:32 | Gavin analyses Reform's 'current structure'
17:24 | Caller Ben condemns Reform's 'underhand' behaviour
21:14 | Nick believes the donation row will 'encourage' voters to go with Reform
25:09 | Trust in politics has been 'badly damaged', says Louise
28:35 | Caller Graham accuses Labour of 'creating a smokescreen'
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
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0:00
Reform UK, the conference, is going to be winding up and they're making an announcement
0:05
or they've made an announcement today. Robert Jenrick, Reform's economic spokesperson, has said this morning that the party wants
0:13
to increase the personal allowance to £15,000 if Reform UK win the next general election
0:21
And he's going to introduce that tax cut within the first hundred days of becoming Chancellor
0:27
It is seen by Reform Insiders as the flagship policy announcement of this conference
0:32
perhaps their biggest tax policy between now and the next general election
0:36
How are they going to pay for it? Well, it's going to cost about £17.7 billion a year
0:41
rising to £21 billion by the fifth year of the Parliament. They're saying it's going to be paid for through £80 billion of public spending cuts
0:50
that the party plans to make. Robert Jenrick says this, As Chancellor, I will wake each morning with one purpose, to make Britain a better place
1:01
And he's basically saying that he wants to bring this in. It is expected that 1.3 million were dragged into paying tax last year alone
1:11
Why? Because a tax-free allowance has been stuck at £12,500 since 2021
1:16
and Labour has frozen it until 2031. So that is Robert Jenrick talking about increasing the personal allowance
1:25
Quite welcome, I think. A lot of people would be thinking, great, great move. They might also be thinking, great move
1:31
that Jordan Bardella was there yesterday with one Nigel Farage on the stage
1:36
making a very eloquent speech. In English, by the way, Jordan Bardella, the rock star of French politics
1:43
obviously slightly disappointed that he probably won't be allowed to stand for president now
1:46
that his boss, Marine Le Pen, is essentially in the clear. but still a hugely influential figure in his early 30s
1:53
What a speech that was. Saying that if Reform UK were to form a government
1:58
and if the Rassemblement National were to take over in France, that boats would be allowed to be sent back
2:05
They're crossing the Channel. And that is something that they have agreed on yesterday
2:09
and was announced yesterday. A lot of focus on the first 100 days and all the rest of it
2:14
But there's an elephant in the room, isn't there? There's a big, big elephant in the room
2:19
and that elephant has massively defecated in the corner and is causing a rather large smell
2:28
And that smell is a stench of basically utter incompetence and uselessness
2:35
And yet again, it's around donations. I mean, this isn't the first time, is it, that we've heard about all this
2:39
Now, I want to ask you this question before I get into the meat of this. Meat being an interesting word
2:45
You could say the intricacies of the turd that's in the corner. But anyway, spare you if you're having your lunch
2:51
Is Reform UK ready for government? Is Reform UK ready for government
2:58
Because the whole entire conference is about the first 100 days. What do you think
3:02
0345 6060 973 text 84850. I'll tell you what I think. Look, I think it doesn't look good at all
3:11
Look, I don't care if it was entrapment or not entrapment. The reality is you can't have two senior figures of your party
3:17
who have now been dismissed as mere contractors, going around and being loose-lipped
3:24
or as Nigel Farage, the leader of Reform UK, has described it, engaging in loose pub talk
3:31
Well, you could call it loose pub talk if you want to. It's a bit like what Donald Trump said about
3:35
when he was challenged about the talk about grabbing women by the genitals, saying it was loose locker room banter
3:44
I mean, it just simply doesn't fly, right? I mean, at least if you're going to be incompetent
3:47
wait until you're in government, for heaven's sake. Don't do it before when people are trying to make that up their minds about you
3:53
I mean, at the moment, in terms of voting intention, Labour's now leading the polls
3:58
I mean, reform are leading the polls for months and months and months. And now they're vying for third place with the Tories
4:03
It's not exactly good. This comes on the back of, as you know, the Christopher Harbourn thing that we had as well
4:09
with this 5 million donation that is still being investigated. And we'll see what happens there
4:16
Nigel Farage would, of course, say, Nothing to see here. My voters in Clacton have just re-elected me by a whopping, whopping majority
4:24
So they have given their verdict. Why should you worry your little heads about this
4:28
Well, it just has a stench about it, doesn't it? And we've also got pos George Cottrell and his mother and all those issues about whether the rules were followed on political donations as well
4:41
This is basic 101 stuff. Look, when I was standing for Parliament, there was a, I'll spare the blushes of this particular nation, but there was a senior official from a foreign country who came to see me in my constituency during the election in Watford
4:57
And he basically sat in a pub right next to Watford Junction Station and offered me a large envelope stuffed with cash and said, I'm going to leave this in the toilet
5:11
you go and collect it and then I'll be off and I looked at him straight in the eye
5:16
and I said I'm sorry things don't work that way in this country
5:20
I haven't busted my backside for the last 10 years to have my political career ruined
5:26
by taking a bribe from you and he said oh we're like brothers people just want to help you with your campaign
5:31
oh I'm sure they do I'm sure that perhaps the intelligence agency
5:36
of a foreign state might like to help me with my election to have something over me for the rest of my life
5:40
but things don't work that way in this country. So you've got to have some propriety
5:44
if you want to enter public life. And yes, if you're a reform UK, died in the wall supporter
5:50
you might say, well, it's no different to Peter Murrell and motor homes
5:53
or it's no different to Boris Johnson and lockdown parties. I mean, if that's the level of your defence
6:00
in my view, you're not yet fit for government. Now, I like Nigel Farage personally
6:05
He's always been very polite to me. I think he's got some good ideas on things. He's not a nutter
6:10
a racist nut job like some of the people in Restore, talking about repatriation and ethno-nationalism
6:16
and all that sort of stuff. They have some points on that, by the way, but they've gone too far, in my view, on that particular thing
6:23
But when you've got running a party, you can't simply dismiss two senior members
6:28
as basically contractors and there's nothing to see here. Or, as Nigel Farage says yesterday
6:35
when he spoke at the Reform Conference and directly addressed the swirling questions
6:39
about his party finances, he suggested that they might be motivated by fear of the party rather than anything else
6:46
What is problematic is loose pub talk, including a couple of boasts that were made that simply were not true
6:58
But some of the comments made by two of our team were injudicious at best
7:05
neither of these men was authorised to act in this way accordingly they've stepped down pending an investigation
7:13
I repeat reform has broken no law we take compliance extremely seriously
7:20
and ask yourself why is all of this happening
7:33
anyone got a clue why it's happening because they're scared of us right they're scared of us i mean look this sounds a bit like the enron
7:45
defense you know the black letter law defense where you literally don't look at the spirit but
7:50
you look at the letter of the law so because no money essentially has been taken in this particular scenario according to Reform UK That all fine Really I mean seriously You got two senior people engaging in loose pub talk about how to try and circumvent rules right
8:09
which is what we understood from what we've seen and what we've heard. They've both essentially been suspended or resigned or whatever from the party at the moment
8:17
It looks absolutely appalling. I mean, I want to hear from you
8:21
if you are, number one, a reform supporter, dialing the wall? Does this make any difference to you
8:26
Or are you, as one of my friends is, going to still hold your nose and vote reform
8:31
And by the way, my friend's based in Uxbridge and South Ryslip
8:35
He's going to do whatever it takes to give the Labour Party a bloody nose
8:40
because he's sick and tired of a lack of delivery on the immigration issue from both the Tories
8:46
and Labour successively over the last 20 years plus. So he's going to hold his nose
8:52
He understands that reform is not handling itself in the most, let's just say, dignified manner
9:00
to put it politely, but he's going to hold his nose. Are you in that category? Are you going to hold your nose, number one
9:05
Number two, are you going to hold your nose and still vote reform because you think
9:09
it's all an establishment stitch-up? Because if it is an establishment stitch-up
9:13
Who in the establishment is forcing you to go and do loose-lit pub talk about donations to undercover journalists
9:22
I mean, who in the establishment is that? Even if it is, inverted commas, entrapment, you don't have to be entrapped, do you
9:28
You just simply don't have to be entrapped. Just follow the rules like everyone else does
9:33
So if you're a reformed supporter, are you holding and keeping the faith? And if so, why
9:37
Are you disappointed? And even if you're disappointed, you're going to keep the faith
9:41
if you were someone who was partial to reform are you now rethinking rethinking your view and how you
9:50
might vote at the next election because frankly you want a bit of competence and at the moment
9:53
all you can see is essentially a bunch of people who are inefficient are unserious and unable to
10:04
follow basic rules and if you're someone who for this simply just confirms what you always thought
10:09
about Reform UK. Do you think that this is now going to pay
10:13
to their chances of forming a government? And indeed, the Tories are making a comeback
10:17
What do you think about that? And if you're a supporter of Restore Britain
10:22
are you actually enjoying your breakfast and quaffing champagne because your chances are looking so much brighter right now
10:32
Is Reform UK ready for government? I would basically say that reforms lost the way
10:38
with the immigration and taking people's benefits off from us being here 10 years
10:44
That's number one. Number two, I'm not particularly bothered about money donations
10:49
because they're all as bad as each other, in my opinion. And I think the stop the boat is poisoning
10:58
the UK's immigration policy because the Tories and Labour refuse to deal with it
11:03
That's what I think. when you say that they're all as bad as each other
11:09
Martin, I wouldn't disagree with you, but typically they're all as bad as each other, at least when they get into
11:15
government, they're all as bad as each other before they even get in, I mean, this is basic
11:20
basic political management, I mean, this is appalling for the party isn't it
11:25
Well, it's like I said, it's lack of judgment I mean, Boris Johnson with Russian peers
11:29
Keir Starmer with Spectacles Taylor Swift conferences That's true. But they're not, have they
11:35
But like you said, reform fit for government. Stan was openly admitted that they had no plan for government
11:41
when they come in. They would have never, ever took the winter fuel allowance off people
11:46
But what do you think, just on the ready for government thing, I mean, what do you think
11:50
Because they're talking about tax reform. They're talking about small boats and dealing with that
11:55
which is one of their major, major policies. I mean, it's not like they don't have any ideas, these people
12:00
I don't think it's... A lot of people are missing. And I think PIP has become universal income by the back door
12:06
and I'll explain to you for why. All the people in Barnsley and South Yorkshire
12:11
are on antidepressants the most. If you look at London, the richest areas in London
12:16
the depressant level is lower. So it's got PIP, in my opinion
12:21
has become universal basic income by the back door. And with the inventive AI
12:25
which nobody wants to talk about, that's destroying the job market, what are they going to actually do
12:30
Because nobody's addressing it. Burnham's is being sworn in here, sworn in there for the past eight weeks
12:36
If a country were in that big of a state as it said it was, why was it a straight backing office
12:40
So, Martin, directly to answer the question, do you or do you not think Reform UK is ready for government
12:46
It doesn't sound like you're completely convinced. You must be voting for an independent at the next election
12:51
They're not going to form a government, though, any independent, Martin. Seriously, it's a protest vote
12:56
It is a protest vote, but what are you actually getting? because there seem to be the calibre of politicians
13:02
seem to get worse by the year. It does, but then the argument there is
13:06
that if reform's the only game in town and potentially could form an alliance with the Tories
13:10
then at least vote for them if you want certain things changed, I guess. I guess that's the argument that we make
13:15
I think you could have a little bet, Ali. I think you could have a coalition with the Liberals
13:20
Labour and the Tories for one reason, to keep the S&P out
13:24
because that could physically happen because Ed Davis put it in the paper
13:29
that he's not opposed to a coalition with conservatives again. The question of is reform ready for government
13:36
I want to delve into that and talk about the current reform structures
13:39
and Nigel Farage's history with member-led organisations as well. Because remember, he has a very negative history with member organisations
13:49
He doesn't like to give members any power, which was proven in UKIP
13:53
when there was a big fallout between Nigel and the members and the members called an emergency conference
14:00
where they then voted in favour of having an NHS because Nigel had made announcements that he wanted to
14:12
well, quite clearly said, that we, in his opinion, needed to adopt a privatised model similar to the Americans
14:21
That was the famous piece of video that went around. and after that
14:27
he spat the dummy out with UKIP and he's eventually come back and created
14:33
this new party called Reform which is not a political party it's actually a business owned by him
14:39
and he has absolute centralised power he picks the policies, he picks the
14:45
candidates, there's no structure, there's no hierarchy there's no networks there isn't a network
14:53
in my area in Cumbria. But if you go up, rewind the clock
14:58
Well, let's have a look at how other parties exist. Most other parties have local branches
15:02
and local party groups. And then those local party groups, there might be a regional chair position come up
15:10
or something like that, yeah? And leadership will have somebody in the area
15:14
who's been involved for a while that they know. You know, they can give them a call and say
15:18
hey, we've got this position coming up. Do you know anybody in your area? and you can get recommendations
15:24
OK, but then, Gavin, is your argument that they're not ready for government at the national level
15:27
because they're not a democratic party at the local level and it's all centralised control run by Nigel Farage
15:32
I mean, is that the argument you're making? It is, and that handicaps you completely
15:37
Like, take Ellie Reynolds in Barrow. Nigel, just before his clacked in election
15:44
he went up to Barrow and got photographs with Ellie Reynolds. Her full name is Ellie Reynolds Newman
15:49
She dropped the Newman for a very particular reason And that because Mr Newman the man that she had just married is a convicted sex offender And they didn want that to get out Okay they not here to answer for that so I can really go into all that Gavin
16:05
In the case, it's public information. I'm not sure it is. Okay, understood. We'll go and check it
16:10
But Gavin, you'll do... Ellie Reynolds was picked because she was an outspoken candidate from the area
16:17
that had caught the attention of Nigel Farage in London, in that centralised party. Okay
16:22
Not because a local network had said, oh, yeah, she is a great candidate
16:26
Had they had a local group in Barrow with a few old members that they could trust
16:31
that had been in the party 20 years, then they could speak to them and they would have potentially said, no, and he's got these problems
16:37
OK, so, Gavin, your argument is you're less concerned about the stench
16:41
of how donations are handled and the transparency around that, which is, in my view, pretty basic stuff
16:46
I mean, you can't get that stuff right. You're showing that you're not ready for government yet. Now, I'm not saying that Reform UK could never be ready for government
16:53
I think they've got some interesting people. I think Richard Tice is a credible guy. I think Farage is OK
16:57
I think Zia Yusuf, some of the things he's been saying a little bit, you know, on the edge
17:04
But I think he's a sensible, credible business guy. They've got some interesting people
17:07
I think even Generic coming out with this personal allowance thing, if it's costed and funded, will also help a lot of people
17:13
So I don't think there are a bunch of fruitcake loonies and closet racists, as UKIP was dismissed by David Cameron
17:19
but certainly this current situation is not helping. Gavin, thank you. Ben in Clacton. Ben, good afternoon
17:26
Good afternoon. They're not for government because of the shenanigans on Channel 4
17:36
And people suspect now that all the time, they're doing it all the time
17:40
They're on their hand and they're cheating and all sorts of things. And you can't get elected
17:45
I don't think you can get elected by that. Plus the fact this policy of if the French man became prime minister and he was able to take all the vote people back and then he would send them all back to their own countries
18:05
It's thought at this time that he would send them all back to their own countries
18:09
Well, if you think of this, round about 60% of people who have been accepted that they are refugees, are we going to scrap the refugee policy completely and send people back to the deaths in their own country
18:26
Well, I don't know what the policy is in terms of actually dealing with refugees now who are here and have been processed through the system
18:31
But we do know what it's very, very clear that they're going to be trying to clamp down on people trying to cross the channel
18:36
and that was the big announcement yesterday that they were making with Jordan Bardella
18:40
that if he gets into power and it's odds on that he might do
18:44
to be perfectly frank that they would be able to send boats back with the support of the Navy
18:49
to get them back to French soil which actually would send a very, very clear message
18:53
to people smugglers that don't bother trying to cross a channel because you're not going to succeed
18:57
The very same message, by the way, that the Rwanda scheme would have sent that you can't just come here illegally
19:03
and expect to be handed out and doled out with benefits. So on that particular one, if it comes off, good luck to them
19:09
Ben, how damaged do you think they are by this donations issue? It puts suspicion in not so much died-in-the-wool reform voters
19:19
but people who are thinking of voting for them. Absolutely, absolutely. Completely put off
19:24
Well, Ben, just on that particular point, just on that particular, Fraser Nelson's got a piece in the Times today
19:30
Farage will keep his fans, but is losing the rest. And the point that he makes is exactly the point you just made, which is it's all very well to keep a rump of people who will support you come what may and who enjoy the dazzling spotlights and the come on Eileen and the rock music and all the other things that are played at the reform conference when people come on stage
19:50
That's all fine because they're paid up fully and they will support you come what may
19:54
And they all think it's an establishment stitch up anyway. It's the floating voters, the Tories who are disgruntled
20:02
some Labour members as well who broke ranks with the party on the immigration thing
20:06
that might be scratching their heads thinking, do I really want to vote for these guys if they can't even be competent about how they raise their own funds
20:14
Plus the fact that the disabled organisations will have a war with reform
20:19
if they get the money from people who are weak and can't do anything about their disablement
20:30
you and I are five minutes away from having a car crash and becoming disabled
20:36
And people are going to think about that as well, because if you get the money from the weakest and the poorest in the country
20:44
then you're going to have the whole families of these people voting against you
20:49
If I had a disabled member, which I've had two in my life
20:54
I would have fought tooth and nail to stop them being... Because if they're getting the money, hand out tax rebates
21:03
I would love to go up to £15,000. But the cost of that, I couldn't stand myself personally, morally
21:13
I think the question of are they ready for government and who will vote for them are actually two slightly distinct things
21:21
Just in terms of are they ready for government, going from, you know, no parliamentary experience
21:28
no cabinet experience to trying to run a country with hundreds of MPs
21:32
pretty difficult, I would say. But on the other hand, on that basis, you'd never re-elect a new party
21:40
And in fact, it's also fair to say that since Labour were in power
21:44
for a long time under Blair Brown, the Conservative cabinet that came in after them
21:49
had pretty much no experience of running the country and exactly the same was true of Keir Starmer's first cabinet
21:56
But Nick, on the experience point, they would counter and say, well, actually, we do have some experience now
22:02
because we've got Robert Jenrick, he served as a minister, we've got Suela Braverman
22:07
she was Home Secretary, we've got Nadeem Zahar, he was Chancellor, we've got Danny Kruger
22:12
I mean, they're all Tories, frankly, that might tarnish the brand, I don't know. but that's the argument they would make
22:17
I'm with you, Ali. I'm a reformed member. I'm going to vote for them come what may
22:22
But in terms of who will vote for them and how much will this donation be..
22:26
By the way, my view is the people who are inclined to vote reform
22:31
this shenanigans with the set-up for the donation, it will probably only encourage people to vote
22:39
I consider it primarily fraud on behalf of the person who was..
22:43
Nick, to finish your point, finish your point. And I agree. I know you were whiter than white and you were fantastic
22:50
and you had the envelope of cash and you turned it down. Of course, envelope of cash, I would say
22:53
is a different order of bribery than a promised donation. OK, Nick, but all I would say is that political parties know the rules
23:04
Now, if you're an upstart political party trying to take on the status quo or the establishment
23:09
call it what you will, you know that people are going to be out to get you, right? I mean, we know this
23:14
Therefore, wouldn't you try and be whiter than white, dot the I's, cross the T's
23:19
to not give your opponents low-hanging fruit to go and kick you in the genitals with, frankly
23:26
for one of a better words? So why do that? And Nick, you're right to say that people like you and others
23:31
like my friend in Uxbridge, are going to hold their nose and vote reform because they believe in certain policy platforms
23:36
and they feel let down by... But a lot of other people who are floaters, who reform could actually get on board
23:42
they might be put off by this Nick. That's where I'm not quite so sure
23:47
I think the people are inclined to vote for this, not just for reform, but for the policies
23:52
are going to vote anyway And of course what happened we saw it with Brexit and we seen it with every election where either UKIP or reform have stood Every single time they outperformed
24:04
their poll, their pre-election polling. And the reason is that exactly the same that happened with
24:09
Brexit is happening now with reform. I heard someone on Rachel's show last night phoning up
24:15
and effectively saying anyone that supports or is thinking of voting reform is an ill-educated
24:20
racist moron. Yeah, we've heard all that nonsense. And I'm probably in a minority who are prepared to
24:26
phone you up and fess up to being an uneducated racist moron. But most people won't want
24:32
to do that. No one would even say it to pollsters in the privacy of a polling
24:36
question. Yeah, they'll just vote to leave the EU. Yeah, they'll just vote to leave
24:40
the EU quietly, 52-48. There we are. Exactly. Job done. Indeed. So I think, however the polls
24:48
are now, yeah, they've taken a little bit of died they're going to outperform that all right and i'm definitely going to vote reform but of
24:55
course i'm in a constituency where the conservatives are more likely to vote and i would love there to
24:59
be some kind of memorandum of understanding that would allow me to vote for the conservative
25:05
candidate knowing that i'm going to get a conservative reform coalition you talked about
25:10
people holding their noses and voting for reform yeah well ali there isn't a peg in the world big
25:15
enough for me to hold mine but that's not about the personalities although that would be easy
25:21
it's about policies right and that's what worries me most about this hundred day promise
25:27
right so to be clear i'm not interested in the party politics it's what's got us in the mess
25:32
we're in yes i want to take what reform are actually promising and test whether it's deliverable
25:37
yeah because deliverability really matters now ali with trust you know trust in politics has
25:43
been so badly damaged by governments promising change and failing to deliver so if another
25:48
government promises transformation and fails the consequences for our democracy could be profound
25:53
and that's my start point ali so i'm just going to take i haven't got time to do it all but i'm
25:58
going to take one promise yeah and i'm going to work reverse engineer it right so saving 21 billion
26:04
by ending benefits for foreign nationals yes fine but the people don't disappear when the benefit
26:09
payment disappears Ali. If families can't pay their rent or feed their children the problem
26:14
moves somewhere else in the system and the system is key here and so do the costs. And people adapt
26:21
The ISS points out that some could respond by becoming British citizens and of course they could
26:26
You know you've changed their incentives. So you haven't calculated a 21 billion saving because
26:31
you've removed 21 billion from one departmental spreadsheet. You have to follow the consequences
26:37
through the whole system. And that's my problem with this 100 days
26:41
It's a political timetable, not a causal timetable. And changing who's in government
26:45
isn't the same as changing how government works, Ali. So Britain desperately needs change
26:51
But before we hand anyone the keys, I want evidence they understand the system
26:55
they're asking us to trust them to run. So, Louise, do you think
26:58
quite apart from the donations issues and all the rest of it, that is noise and it's unpleasant noise
27:03
and it's self-inflicted, unforced error noise, but you're more interested in the actual policies
27:08
and you sound sceptical about the deliverability of those policies or at least even if they are deliverable
27:14
the problems are simply going to move somewhere else. Louise, you're not buying this, are you? Not at all, Ali
27:20
And I want to stress again, this isn't about politics. I'm not the member of any political party
27:27
It's about having sat and witnessed government after government come in with the same system, with the same incentives
27:34
If you look at all the things people are unhappy with, housing, rail, energy, water
27:40
You know, the other day, Kemi Bazanok said to Andy Burnham, oh, you're going on about Margaret Thatcher, you know, I'm 46
27:47
The thing is, Thatcher's fingerprints and the marketisation and incentives are all over every system that we all rely on
27:55
And anybody coming in who wants to deliver real change has to understand that system and be talking about how they're going to change it
28:01
and I've heard not one word. What I've heard, Ali, is big problem, simple answer
28:08
let's not look at the big grey area in the middle. And the grey area is what determines
28:12
how we all experience our life and our society and that's what we need politicians to be addressing
28:18
Well, the grey area indeed, nothing's easy, no simple answers. We do need systems thinking
28:24
You're a big systems thinker, Louise. I hope that Reform UK policy people are listening to you
28:29
I mean, the head of policy has now resigned, but the rest of them, I hope they are taking it on board
28:35
I think they are ready, because they've been putting lots of planning in place
28:39
on how they're going to do for governing. And all this stuff that's going on at the moment
28:46
this is me theorising, OK? I think the Labour Party or the Labour government
28:52
have created a smokescreen. I'm not saying they're behind all this, but the biggest threat to them is reform
28:59
Right. But they're not going and paying journalists to go and try and entrap people. Entrap is the reform word, frankly
29:09
We don't know that as fact. We only know that as... Yeah, but what we do know as fact is what comes out of the mouths of senior reform people who are now dismissed as contractors that don't have to say the nonsense that came out of their mouths. We do know that, don't we
29:21
Well, I'm not of that opinion. I watch what happened over with Trump
29:28
and I think my theory on all this is Andy Burnham will see that reform are damaged at the moment
29:38
so hear, think. They call a general election in the hope that Labour will win
29:44
because everybody would know that reform are limping along at the moment
29:50
because of all the stuff that's going on. And there's a burn and bounce as well
29:55
Yeah, yeah. I think he'd want to try and restore that. And I think it would cost him
30:02
because I think a lot of people like myself will see through a lot of this stuff and know
30:07
yeah, but I don't, you know, there's been so many, all these TV documentaries
30:12
and I would say Channel 4, the rest of them are all in the same boat
30:16
They ever create a story to sell something. But then, Graham, look, I understand that
30:21
I understand that. And I've got sympathy with the view of people who say that, you know
30:26
it's an upstart party and the establishment don't like them. I'm sure a lot of establishment politicians completely detest Reform UK
30:34
But Reform UK also, it's a bit like going to Wimbledon, right
30:38
and going into a semifinal or a final in the Wimbledon Championships
30:41
and basically not getting to first base because you're constantly making unforced errors
30:45
I mean, these are self-inflicted wounds, right? No-one's forcing them to say
30:49
try and circumvent the ordinary rules around political donations. Why go there, Graham? Why go there
30:56
I can't comment on that, and I think there are, with everything
31:02
there are people who will make mistakes. There's quite a few of them being made at the moment, I tell you
31:07
Yeah, but like I said, I feel this is a smokescreen to try and deter the strength of the thought
31:14
Okay, but Graham, okay, fine. Let's just go with your argument. and say that it is, right
31:19
Do you think that there are going to be enough floating voters
31:23
that are going to be attracted to reform, because you're keeping the faith with reform anyway
31:29
but other people have to be persuaded to put their tick in their box
31:33
where they haven't put their tick in a reform box before? That's the thing
31:37
It's all fine to keep 25% of the electorate who are your core vote
31:40
That's all fine, preaching the converted. That's not going to win you an election, Greg
31:44
I would agree with you on that because that's where I feel Labour would think they've got a strength to call this down
31:53
Okay, okay. All right, Graham, thank you very much indeed for your call
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