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Andrew Marr is joined by Labour's Emily Thornberry and LBC's Political Correspondent Aggie Chambre to break down the escalating Mandelson row and what it means for Keir Starmer. It comes after the former top official at the Foreign Office, Olly Robbins, says No 10 had a "dismissive" approach to Lord Mandelson's vetting earlier today. Robbins was sacked after the prime minister discovered he did not tell him that Mandelson had failed the vetting process to be the US ambassador. Downing Street denies showing a "dismissive" approach to the vetting, and says Robbins made an "error of judgement". In an emergency Commons debate about Mandelson's appointment, the Tories and SNP call for a no confidence vote in the prime minister. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #andrewmarr #ollyrobbins #LBC #debate #starmer #uknews #ukpolitics #labour #news LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
The year is 1170
0:03
An angry Westminster leader, Henry II, frustrated about a leading servant of the Crown
0:10
the Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Becket, snarls to his knights, Who will rid me of this turbulent priest
0:18
They take him at his word, they ride off, and they hack Becket to pieces in Canterbury Cathedral
0:25
Henry, protesting, Hold on, he didn't know, didn't want that, ends up having to make a public penance on his knees
0:34
And so to today's events. The good news is that, so far as I'm aware
0:39
Sir Ollie Robbins, the former boss of the Foreign Office, has not been hacked to pieces with swords
0:45
I don't expect to see the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, on his bare knees begging the Pope for forgiveness
0:51
But we have seen a big public falling out, a major diplomatic upset
0:55
the fall of a servant and a leader who professes remarkable ignorance
1:02
If you want a really short, brutal summary of what's happened so far in Mandigate
1:07
it goes like this. Yesterday, the Prime Minister tells the Commons he wasn't told about the vetting problem
1:12
before he appointed Peter Mandelson as US ambassador, and he's furious. Now, Robbins, the man he fired for staying silent, says that Starmer wasn't told
1:23
because A, it was against the law, and B, he didn't want to know
1:29
There was constant pressure, Robbins told MPs, to get Mandelson's appointment okayed
1:34
and Starmer's No. 10 took a dismissive attitude to the vetting. No. 10 denies it all, but I'm afraid it makes Keir Starmer's public posture look completely ridiculous
1:45
He presented himself as an innocent, bewildered party, left entirely in the dark a naive bystander of his own government
1:54
Not true, says Robbins. He and the people around him were driving this
1:59
The Prime Minister knew the risks. The result appears to be that an incurious leader
2:04
has fired a diligent public servant for doing what he was told
2:09
Ollie Robbins is not a turbulent priest. He's a decent, fastidious official with, as it happens
2:15
a taste for the Book of Common Prayer. I mean, as a human being, I'm desperately, desperately sad about it, Mr. Carden
2:21
I love that job. I love that institution. I was proud to serve this government and any government that might follow it
2:30
I hope I was doing it to the best of my ability. I was certainly doing it as hard as I possibly could
2:37
I had wonderful colleagues who I miss deeply. And the issues we were dealing with, and my colleagues are still dealing with
2:44
are of profound importance to the success of this government and the success of the country
2:49
Hmm, but this is grim. This afternoon, the Conservative leader, Kemi Badenok
2:54
returned to the attack in a Commons debate, and there are growing calls for a vote of confidence in the Prime Minister
3:00
The mood inside the Cabinet and the Parliamentary Labour Party is bleak
3:05
even despairing. I want to begin tonight with Emily Thornberry, the Labour MP who chairs the Foreign Affairs Select Committee
3:12
to which Sir Oli gave evidence this morning. I began by asking her what kind of witness she thought he'd made
3:19
Look, we've got history with Ollie Robbins. I mean, he gave evidence before the select committee last year
3:25
and it was extremely annoying because him and Wilmot came in front of us
3:29
and we were completely Mandarin, you know. And I wrote him a letter, asked him some very straightforward questions
3:35
and got a whole lot of nonsense back. So I started the session by saying..
3:39
None of that. It would be nice to get the whole truth, not just a little bit of it, please
3:44
And so he was better. I mean, I think I had a great deal of sympathy for him
3:52
And he's in a very difficult position. And it was great that he gave us the amount of time that he did
3:58
I hope he feels that we gave him space to be able to say everything that he wanted to say
4:05
I still, though, don't think it was wrong for him to lose his job, I'm afraid
4:10
You don't? Why not? No Well because there are a few things I mean listen he not the only one at fault I not going to pretend that he isn the only one at fault But I think the fault with him was that it was quite clear that direct vetting had come up with a pretty strong recommendation that Mandelson shouldn be passed and that he was
4:34
Can I just stop you on that? Yeah, go on. I'm going to go into that because several times Ollie Robbins used the word borderline when it came to the vetting
4:42
Now, I've seen, as you have, the piece of paper with the kind of traffic lights on it, which suggested it was more than borderline
4:49
Is your understanding that he was simply wrong about that and that the vetting advice was much clearer against Mandelson than he thought
4:57
My understanding is that developed vetting recommended that Mandelson be denied developed vetting and that Mandelson was a man of high concern
5:07
That's not borderline. That is not borderline. Now, Ollie Robbins said that he didn't read it and that it was talked into it or read into it or something
5:17
Anyway, he was told something. And that the impression, therefore, that he got was that it was borderline and that it lent into denial of vetting
5:29
Now, first of all, he was wrong about that by the face of it
5:33
But also it highlights the other thing which is wrong, which is he doesn't seem to have ever made any notes
5:39
And from what I understand about civil servants, they make notes about everything. I mean, they make a cup of coffee, they make a note
5:45
He said there wouldn't be no time to do anything if they were making notes. Yeah, well, you know, I mean, really, I mean, as far as I understand it, that just simply isn't right
5:54
They make notes of phone calls, they make notes of meetings, you know, and they make notes about when they're going to make a decision
6:00
This is my thinking. This is why I'm this is why I'm deciding this. So, he got that wrong. He didn't make a note about it. He doesn't seem to have made a note
6:10
about a great deal. Do you think something was being hidden going on at the heart of the Foreign Office
6:14
I don't know. I don't know. I'm just telling you, right? These two things are not good. And then, and then, he doesn't even say to Number 10, who are obviously breathing down
6:23
his neck, and I'm happy to go on to that in a minute, you know, he doesn't even make a note
6:28
of telling them. And he doesn't even, when he does tell them, say, there has been a wrinkle
6:33
there has been a problem, but I have decided to take things into my own hands. And actually
6:39
so long as Mandleton doesn't do this or doesn't do that or whatever it is, he can have the job
6:44
There was a moment when you said, surely at some point you said something to number 10. And he said
6:49
yes, of course, at some point we would talk to number 10, we would talk to the Foreign Office
6:52
But he then seemed to pull back from that. I know. And obviously the next question is, well, when you spoke to number 10, where's your note? Who did you speak to? Who was it that was so interested? I mean, my theory is that the guy who resigned, you know, who was the person in charge of Keir Starmer's office, Morgan McSweeney, he resigned because he'd pushed the issue of Mandelson too far
7:17
and I think, you know, let's take the obvious path. It was Morgan McSweeney who was a protege of Mandelson's
7:25
who was pushing to get his old, you know, the guy he looked up to
7:30
His mentor. His mentor, the job in Washington and was pushing it too far
7:35
Emily, are you going to ask Morgan McSweeney to talk to your committee? I am going to invite some other witnesses
7:41
It would probably be best if they heard that first from me rather than from you
7:45
All right. Let me go. Let me return to the sort of central impression that I had, which was of a system being put under huge pressure by a prime minister absolutely determined to get what he wanted, which was Peter Mandelson appointed as U.S. ambassador, not interested in the vetting, not interested in the DV process, not really wanting to hear about it
8:07
and whatever Ollie Robbins' other faults or whatever, he was a man put under intense pressure within a few weeks of the job
8:15
to deliver what he thought he was meant to do. I think I agree with most of what you're saying
8:20
but I genuinely don't think that it was Keir Starmer. I think that Keir actually, I mean, like, from my experience
8:31
what Keir is not particularly interested or doesn seem to have been proactively involved in working out who gets what jobs No seriously This is completely bizarre This is the single most important diplomatic job in the country for the country
8:47
And he's not interested. Well, maybe he's interested. But, you know, gossip has it that he had other candidates
8:54
but that actually it was Morgan saying, no, no, no, no, no. We've got to give this to Peter
8:58
This is Peter's last job. We've got to give this to Peter. Peter's going to have this. And don't worry, I'll sort it out
9:03
And Keir sort of went, OK, OK, I've got other stuff to do. I don't think that this trying to put this at the feet of Keir Starmer actually makes sense to me
9:13
I think that certainly there were people in number 10 who were pushing it too far. And you can just look at what happened and you can see that, frankly, going to the king, telling the new president, announcing it, sending him a letter, congratulating it, none of it being clear that this is all subject to vetting
9:31
when really what would have been much better would have been do the vetting first and then
9:36
And that is what Keir Starmer surely can't avoid. He was told that was the right way around to do it
9:41
You know, the head of the civil service said, give me the name. We will do the vetting and then you can make the appointment
9:46
And he ignored all of that. And then when all of this comes out, he sacks Ollie Robbins
9:51
I still think it's very hard to understand why that happened. well I think that in the end it was it was a the criticism of Keir is that he was hands-off and he
10:04
let other people do this and I think that there was an abuse of power you know from those who were
10:10
given that power and you know and we heard not just about of course about Mandelson you know we
10:16
heard the most extraordinary thing about you know somebody else who was I was going to ask you about
10:21
Matthew Doyle, the former director of communications, again a close friend of Peter Mandelson and of Morgan McSweeney
10:28
And there's suddenly a thought to the Foreign Office, find him an ambassadorship
10:32
Amazing. So according to Ollie Robbins, the private office from Number 10
10:38
rings up his Ollie Robbins private office and says, can you find an ambassador role for somebody else now
10:48
And he's like, what? You've got all these professional civil servants wondering about their next job
10:53
and they're all pushed to one side to make way for Matthew Dahl
10:57
Well, they weren't. They weren't in the end. They weren't in the end, but that was the idea. Well, that's what I mean, about people who've been given power
11:04
and who are abusing it. So who do you think was behind that
11:08
I honestly think this is Morgan getting above himself. You know, this is Morgan taking too much power to himself
11:16
and the criticism of Keir is that he let him. You see, I've just said at the top of the programme that I don't see that Keir Starmer's self-presentation as a kind of naive bystander in his own government really washes
11:28
But you're portraying him not far from being that. I don't think he's naive. I think that he's..
11:35
A willing bystander, perhaps. Well, he subcontracts. There's a lot... I mean, I hate to think what a day must be like as being Prime Minister. Do you know what I mean
11:44
and it's like the idea if someone says i'll take this burden away from you let me deal with this
11:49
you know you have to be careful not just go oh god yeah thank you so much yeah because i've got
11:53
like all this stuff over here to do and in the end we are only talking about people you know
11:59
andrew you're very critical and you'd expect us all to be perfect and i'll tell you what we're not
12:04
no listen if if you were having a go at me you'd find plenty to go for i'm absolutely sure but let
12:10
me just come back to again the impression that you get from looking from the outside which is
12:14
of a boys club at the centre of number 10. Well, that's another issue, yeah
12:18
Do you think that's true? I think it has been, yeah. I think it has been. I think that things are different
12:23
I don't know how, you know, there's a lot of kind of, you know, musical chairs going on at the moment
12:29
So I don't think you can say that at the moment with number 10. Let's just wait and see what happens
12:33
There's many women in charge at the moment. And Keir seems a lot happier
12:37
He seems to do much more himself. And I think, you know, until all of this blew up
12:42
was actually starting to kind of, you know, fight his way out of the hole that he'd got himself into
12:49
And now there's another hole. Where does this end, do you think? I don know I mean I think bottom top of this is you know this is a scandal This is something which you know the Westminster village is very interested in I not sure how interested people are outside of Westminster
13:07
But I think, you know, we are having right now elections going on and elections up and down the country and people deciding who they want to have as their councillors
13:16
Now, I think that's probably more important than anything else that is likely to happen in the next few weeks
13:22
And in a sense, the Prime Minister needs to own whatever happens after May 7th
13:27
I think in a sense we need to do well. And if you don't do well in those elections, what should happen
13:33
Let's see what happens. Let's see what happens. We've still got a good time to go and certainly a lot of people have yet to make up their minds
13:43
So it's all to play for. Emily Thornberry, thank you very much indeed
13:48
Let's see what happens. Listening to all of that was our Deputy Political Editor
13:52
Agi Shaumbury, who is with me now. Agi, I have been reflecting quite hard on what Emily Thornberry was saying
13:58
in what I thought was a very candid interview and the sense that, you know, we're all highly critical of Keir Starmer
14:03
and I've been highly critical of Keir Starmer, but perhaps we have collectively created a job
14:09
that is impossible to do properly. I think there is a sense of that
14:14
And I think there is a sense of, I was speaking to Labour MPs today, who said we were right every single day in opposition
14:20
and we seem to be wrong every single day in government. And I think part of that is, and we've talked about it before
14:27
ministers, including the prime minister, getting into government and thinking, how does the civil service actually work
14:32
How do we actually make the civil service work for us? And there are so many different levers to pull
14:36
Sometimes those levers, as Keir Starmer has talked about himself, don't seem to actually do anything
14:41
And I think it can lead to the perception that it is an impossible job
14:44
And obviously this is not the first time that Keir Starmer feels or says he hasn't been told something
14:50
And I get her point. If someone comes along to you and you're surrounded by big problems
14:55
and says, you know, this problem I can take away. Don't worry about this. I'll do it for you
14:59
The temptation to say, yes, thank you, is very strong. I think that's exactly right
15:04
And I think that's when you have people around you that you trust
15:08
And I think that is part of what has been difficult for Keir Starmer
15:13
and increasingly difficult for Keir Starmer. that he doesn't have any, well, he has barely any of the same people around him
15:18
who might have that kind of institutional memory of what's happened before
15:22
He's had lots of the same people. He's got rid of a lot of people. And I think that has led to some people
15:27
I mean, I was talking to someone who got offered a very senior job in number 10 who turned it down because they were kind of worried about effectively being thrown under the bus
15:34
And won't be there long. Exactly that. And I think this bleeds into the conversation, too, about Keir Starmer's future
15:40
because, you know, that is the question everyone is asking today. all those Labour figures I was speaking to, asking about timelines, asking about his future
15:48
And I think it bleeds into that because people do worry about, well, who might the replacement be
15:52
And will they do any better? Potentially on some things. But the crises they feel facing the government are really monumental
16:00
And it will be difficult, they think, for any of those candidates to actually take them on, some of them on in a different way
16:08
I've been talking, as you have, of course, to Labour MPs all day
16:12
And I get this really kind of worrying sense that they don't want Kirsten
16:17
not for very long anyway, but they don't terribly want anybody else either
16:21
Yes, or they don't know exactly who they want. And if they do know who they want, they don't agree
16:28
Frozen immobility. Yes, yes, I've got the exact same sense. Lots of people saying, no, we're not happy
16:34
No, this is really bad. But no, it's not imminent. Everyone's ready for how bad things will be after May
16:41
Someone's saying to me, a senior Labour MP, saying it's emphasised all people's worst fears and things that people are furious at them about
16:48
And then they said that the government, this is their accusation, the government puts cronyism and factionalism first
16:54
But still, you know, that person is talking about maybe October. Other people talking about maybe next year
16:59
And the reasons are, yes, candidates, the local elections, Iran, what's going on with the cost of living
17:03
But it's also that they fundamentally can't agree. and also that they worry if they were to replace Keir Starmer now, would they be forced into
17:10
would the pressure be too much into an early election? And they think three years is simply
17:14
too long to have someone as prime minister who's not been chosen by the country
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