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Ali Miraj asks callers if the Prime Minister should step down amid the Mandelson scandal. Sir Keir Starmer was “not aware” that the Foreign Office had granted Peter Mandelson clearance to become US ambassador despite failing vetting until Tuesday night, a document released by Downing Street says. 00:00 | Guy from Newcastle-Under-Lyme believes that the Labour Party will use the PM as a 'sacrificial lamb' for the upcoming local elections. 02:50 | Jay from Windsor believes the 'buck stops' with Starmer and demands more transparency from the foreign office. 06:50 | Val from Bracknell reckons Starmer is the best PM we've had since Tony Blair. 10:29 | Ian from Bury thinks Olly Robbins will be 'completely exonerated by Tuesday'. 14:19 | Ayo from Romford is a Starmer support but believes the PM has known about the failed security vetting for longer than he's claimed... 18:39 | Mohammed from Ealing thinks Starmer only has two routes to go down because of this 'shocking' situation. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #AliMiraj #UKNews #KeirStarmer #News #UK #Politics #UKPolitics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
I'm not that okay because it makes me wonder what a complete and utter shambles those people down in London are doing to run this country
0:10
It would even be, there'd be a greater level of governance at the local allotment association, right, who do it voluntarily because they want to do it
0:20
Now, so it's basically then, so this guy's had a security vetting interview
0:28
He's failed that interview, but somehow he's got the most prestigious ambassador's job in the UK
0:35
And Starmer didn't know, they didn't know, he didn't know, he didn't tell him, he didn't ask
0:42
I'll make a forecast, Ali. Starmer won't go just now because the Parliamentary Labour Party
0:49
need a sacrificial lamb in the middle of May. In the middle of May
0:54
he's curtains with his acolyte, bloody, what's his name, Mandelson and McSweeney
1:00
and let them go because they've ruined that party. So you think he's basically done
1:04
it's just a question of three weeks? I don't, well, why would you want to get rid of him now
1:09
No, I agree, I agree, I agree. If they fail, and I believe they're going to do badly in May
1:14
then what did he do then get another, so no they'll keep him
1:19
they'll say no, no we'll go we'll go, but really they want they really want Burnham
1:25
that's who they want they might want Angie I think I'd, well
1:31
and that's another thing why I wouldn't even let Burnham stand in the Manchester City
1:36
no no no but come on Guy, on that particular point I made it clear at the time you don't let your enemy who's been openly
1:41
trying to stab you in the front, right, with your own hands
1:45
You don't let them into the hen house to basically demolish you
1:50
I mean, that was ridiculous. I mean, Burnham should have kept his mouth shut. You can't be running a rearguard action
1:55
against your leader in full openness and then expect them to welcome you
1:59
with open arms into Parliament. It was a ridiculous thing. He was absolutely right to crush Burnham's ambitions
2:04
and he's absolutely right to continue to do so. The problem that he's got now is
2:08
how long can he survive himself? well i think i've answered that ali i just i and this thing that he's an honest guy if you look at
2:17
his history and politics he's promised loads of stuff never delivered on some of the stuff
2:23
firstly like with the uh with the heating allowance no no we're not going to have it
2:29
then he's given it it's like a weather vane i and i he will go ali but but i think it'll be in
2:36
the middle of May. Well I think you're probably right that it is going to be in the middle of May
2:40
because no one wants to take the flak for the election loss that's going to come and it might be quite
2:46
brutal particularly in Scotland, it could be also brutal in Wales, we'll see
2:50
My take on this is, Keir Starmer cannot run the country completely on
2:54
his own, no Prime Minister can. You have civil servants paid highly, top civil servants
3:00
advising him. The back does stop with him but this is what I want to know
3:04
especially from the Home Office be transparent. How was this decision made? The Foreign Office
3:10
Sorry, the Foreign Office. No, you're right. You're right. Absolutely. We never see this. We never see this
3:17
And civil servants pass from one Prime Minister to the next. They stay static generally. So show
3:22
us. Show us how this decision was made. And of course, the buck
3:26
does stop with the ICOM. But this goes from Prime Minister to Prime Minister. Show us how the decision was made
3:32
And name the names. Who are these civil servants advising the government foreign office home office immigration tell us because they're
3:40
the ones that have his ear look i don't disagree with you on any of this stuff all i would say is
3:46
that uh there used to be a time uh back in the not so distant future because even amber rudd
3:52
in 2018 when she was home secretary inadvertently misled the uh a committee of the house of commons
3:58
in breach of the ministerial code and resigned on the back of it wasn't her fault she was given dud
4:03
information, she resigned. Now, sometimes life's not fair. The question is, should the Prime Minister
4:09
resign, given that this happened on his watch, even though, we're going to find out
4:13
tomorrow what the details are, we'll find out on Tuesday Ollie Robbins' side of the whole conversation here, but if it does
4:19
transpire that the Prime Minister was indeed not informed, wasn't aware, and didn't do anything technically wrong
4:25
he's still leading a government where it looks highly embarrassing. Doesn't he need to go, Jay
4:30
He does. Look, with with the Iran thing, he was great. You know, he said, we're going to do it by the book
4:36
I agree, I said it. He said, we're going to do it by the book. Now, I'm hoping
4:40
he has played it by the book. Advisors should be made accountable. Okay
4:46
he does have the last say, but he cannot know every single thing
4:50
But you see, this is... Jay, finish your point. Sorry, go on. Finish your point. That's why we have civil servants who specialize in
4:56
certain areas. We do, we do. yeah don't don't just blame the one person he has a whole team of people show us your team you see
5:06
jay on this point right i must say i'm a man of um limited um intelligence as you know right i'm
5:12
totally confused as to what the rules are around this whole vetting thing i've got to be honest i'm
5:19
totally confused about it because on the one hand you're hearing people senior figures right who are
5:24
saying you're not allowed, Robbins would have not been allowed to disclose any of the details
5:29
of the vetting at all, or even the decision to the Prime Minister. Other people are saying
5:34
that the vetting is just a process and you can still appoint Mandelson as long as mitigating
5:40
mitigants are put in place for the risks that have been outlined Other people are saying that Starmer knew and he a liar I mean it all over the place this whole thing I mean what we need is full Sunlight is the best disinfectant here isn it
5:53
Perfect. You've summed it up. I still think... I want to know the civil servants who are involved in this. Yeah
6:00
Because this is the tip of the iceberg, and this is blatant. This is blatant
6:04
What other decisions are being made... Yes. ...that Starmer doesn't know about and is being advised to
6:08
Well, Jay, before I let you go... Because this whole thing is just covered ad infinitum in all the papers, right
6:14
People with different opinions on what should and should not have been said
6:19
Richard Dearlove, the former boss of MI6, said he would have expected Robbins to at least have alerted Starmer to the conclusions of the vetting process, stopping short of sharing the details
6:28
He said this, I cannot believe the permanent secretary didn't ring up his minister, who he sees every day, and say, look, we've got a problem
6:36
The idea that you don't tell, this is quite frankly rubbish. you don't tell him the reasons why they are being rejected but basically you've got to tell him that
6:44
he's been rejected that didn't happen according to what we read in the papers i think we just need
6:48
to wait for all the facts to come out starmer and his record is the best pm the uk has since
6:53
tony blair 2007 okay these are the facts let's say starmer loses the elections in may did i want
7:01
starmer to be a council leader no i don't he's a pm it doesn't matter if he loses the elections in
7:07
May. It matters that he dealt brilliantly the war in Trump with Iran. And he's
7:12
the best PM we had from 20 years. So why is he the best PM
7:18
in 20 years? Because of his record? Look at the facts. How he handled the
7:24
crisis, how he handled the war in Iran. What is the record? You mean
7:28
the vote that he can get through with his own backbenchers on welfare, that record
7:33
I don't care about how good he is with his No, no, well, I am
7:38
Well, I am, Val. When you've got to spend more... No, hold on. When you've got to spend more money on defence and bullets
7:44
I do care about whether he can control his own party. On what basis are you saying that he's the best PM in 20 years
7:51
The NHS... Two days ago, I listened to the health minister. I can't remember his name
7:56
The NHS is down. The war is handled brilliantly. What do you want from the PM exactly
8:02
To run a council? No, I don't want the PM to run a council at all. nothing that I've got against councillors
8:07
I used to be one myself. No, I don't want a councillor. I want a leader. But I do want, but I'll tell you what I do want
8:13
I do want someone who knows his brief. In fact, my old councillor leader, Richard Barnes in Hillingdon
8:20
when I was a local councillor in 1988, the first thing he told me was
8:25
Ali, know your brief. This guy is running a shambolic operation where he's not reported to
8:33
when there is a vetting failure. Now, that might be because the rules are that you can't report it
8:39
If the rules are you can't report it on such an open matter, when he's going and making a complete idiot of himself consistently
8:46
no one's telling him, Prime Minister, you can't go and say this, that everything was conducted above board because it wasn't
8:51
and there was a vetting failure, there's got to be something wrong somewhere
8:56
It doesn't matter, Ali. This is your opinion. The facts are his record is brilliant
9:00
It doesn't matter how it looks like, how he speaks like, I don't care if we don't go to war and we don't die
9:07
Well, I agree with that. I agree. But just on that, on the record point, I mean, I've been very open about Starmer saying I think he got the tone right on the war
9:17
In the essence of the war point, just specifically, just to digress for a moment, there's no material difference between his position and the position of Kemi Beidonok and Nigel Farage
9:28
because they were saying that we should have allowed the US to use our bases straight away, right
9:33
That's what they were saying. They weren't saying we should actively get involved, but they were saying that we should allow our bases to be used
9:38
Starmer allowed our bases to be used within 48 hours of the attacks taking place for defensive purposes
9:44
So he got the mood music right and the tone right, and I applaud him for that. I agree with him on that
9:49
I gave him a pat on the back. But there's no real material difference anymore, is there
9:52
Come on. There is. Don't try to twist it. It's clear to everybody
9:57
I don't know what's the difference. He was wanting to be involved in the war, and he's not
10:01
So you can twist it as well. I'm not twisting it. Val, I'm not twisting it
10:05
It's really good to all people, okay? And I'm with them. You're asking me to defend Labour
10:09
I'm not Labour, but look at the facts, Sally. Well, Val, I'm not saying that I'm not defending Starmer on his handling of the war
10:17
I think he's done the best job he could. Absolutely. I've applauded him for that. But to say that he's particularly effective
10:24
I think is stretching credulity a little bit far, but we'll agree to disagree on that one
10:29
Let's just go to Oliver Robbins for a second. He was Chief Brexit negotiator between 17 and 19
10:35
He was permanent undersecretary at the Foreign Office and he was advised to PM over European affairs matters
10:42
I think on Tuesday he'll be entirely exonerated of everything. And the reason I'm so sure of that is because all Oli has done
10:50
he has followed a process that is underpinned by law. That law was, I think you mentioned it earlier, the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act
10:58
That is a process. It gives him, he has to stay within that for obvious reasons
11:04
It's confidentiality. I'm a pharmacist. If you came to my pharmacy and I gave you medicines and told half my patients about it, I'd be breaching the law
11:13
Ian, I understand the point. But it's not half the patients. It's the leader of the country
11:18
This is the point. So if, you see, this is the thing. I'm not saying only Robbins did anything wrong, right
11:23
I don't know. I want to hear from him. And if he didn't do anything wrong, and he a senior civil servant very experienced right If he didn and I willing to wait and listen and hear what he has to say if that was the case then how on earth is this even practical this law that applies You can
11:38
tell the boss of the country, the leader of the country, who's made a political appointment about
11:45
this particular fact, and you're leaving it to a civil servant who's taking risk mitigation
11:50
actions or not, as the case may be, it can't be acceptable, can it? No, Ali, you're getting, look
11:56
Four people, five people who rang in this morning, I know because I've been on the end of a phone call waiting
12:01
have mentioned that he failed his vetting. He didn't fail his vetting
12:06
It's not as black and white as that. Well, that's another thing we need to know, yeah. These vettings are about a judgment
12:12
Yes. It follows a legal process, and that judgment might require mitigations
12:18
It might require assessing things, but it's not a fail. If it had been a complete fail like that, it would have been simple
12:26
The practice is that all Holly has done, he's been pushed under the bus
12:31
he has been made the sacrificial lamb for this, and that is what's wrong
12:35
and that is where he'll be found out across Monday and Tuesday
12:39
So, Ian, I want to be educated properly by Ollie Robbins, Starmer
12:42
and anyone else who cares to elucidate around the facts here, about how this whole thing works
12:48
Is it black and white? Is it not black and white? Is it shades of grey? Do you put mitigants in place
12:52
to deal with things where the person hasn't passed. How does it all work
12:58
And who makes these decisions? And who reports? I want to know it all. I want to know the mechanics of all of it
13:02
It's in law. It's in law, as I said before, that Crag Act did this
13:08
saw that personal information about anyone. This was primarily set up for civil servants, don't forget
13:14
Now, the best account I've heard of this was actually on Today Programme, yesterday
13:19
when Simon MacDonald, who was the permanent secretary at the Foreign Office for 40 years
13:26
explained all of this. And he said in his own words, yes, he has been pushed under the bus
13:34
He has been made the scapegoat at number 10. Number 10 know exactly what is going on here
13:40
They wanted to have a scalp quickly to take the heat off Starmer
13:43
and to be able to move it in that direction. Now, I think it's awful. I think it's wrong
13:49
I think I could tie that in with a whole host of other things about this Prime Minister, which I don't like
13:55
But the reality of it is, is that it's not black and white and white
13:59
People keep saying he failed. He didn't fail it. It was more about shades of grey
14:06
Well, I think that's probably true. I think that's probably true, Ian. I just still think that if the law in place leads to this position, I've got no reason to doubt what you're saying at all
14:16
The law is completely unfit for purpose. I'm a Keir Starmer supporter
14:20
I voted for Labour. I don't want him to lose his job. But Keir Starmer knew everything
14:26
He knew everything. I'm not going to mess around on that front
14:30
I do not believe that he only found out last Tuesday, especially when the Epstein files came out
14:37
and there was this massive controversy about it all. Of course you would have asked
14:41
Of course you would have found out. Of course you would have tried to get all your data. The only criticism really I have of Starmer about all of this
14:48
at the time when it all first came out. He should have just gone to Parliament and been real about it
14:53
He said, you know what? I sent Mandelson there because we have got an orange monster
14:59
in the White House, OK? And I'm sent him there for the benefit of every woman, child
15:05
and man of the United Kingdom. At the time, remember, we haven't had the trade deal yet
15:09
There was all this clamor, how we're going to get growth, what we're going to do, we're out of the EU
15:14
This is one of our key sort of, like, you know, options
15:18
We already had an ambassador in America who was very respected, who was very good, but she wasn't part of that inner circle
15:26
of Trump's little gap. That was the argument. Yeah, that was the argument. That was the reason why he was taken out
15:31
So Starmer did this for the right reasons. I truly believe he did it
15:35
I think you're probably right. I think you're probably right, yeah. So now we're in this situation
15:40
We've come to this situation. The issue is now, right, everyone just feels like, you know
15:44
you're trying to speak to us as if we're children, you know, like, kind of like, everyone knows
15:49
you know what happened. But do you think, I... Look, I'll be honest with you. I'll be straight with you
15:55
I'm not Starmer's biggest fan, as you know. However, I'm not prepared to say
15:59
that the Prime Minister is a liar, where I don't have evidence
16:03
for it, right? And I also believe... And I also, just one thing. I mean, this is..
16:07
Let's just put it in context. This is the former Director of Public
16:11
Prosecutions for Heaven's Day. So I'm going to wait and hold my judgement until
16:15
I hear what this guy has to say on Monday, hear what Oli Robbins has to say on Tuesday
16:19
and then we'll find out. At the very, very least, I mean, there was a lack of investigative mind here
16:26
Ali, you see what my problem with your position there is this? You know what you're doing, Ali
16:31
Playing the game. Because that's all this is. This is just a game, this part. This is like who can get caught out
16:38
You know, who can get caught out. If he didn't know, as in no one directly came and told him
16:43
then it is obvious that he put out the sort of the signal
16:48
the sign that, like, you know, I don't really want to know. Which is what Martin was saying
16:53
So either way, however way you want to look at it, he knew in one way or another
16:59
Well, that is what Martin was just saying about plausible deniability. Exactly. So tomorrow and all that and Tuesday, right
17:05
it's all just part of the game. It's a game, right? So let's stop playing around
17:08
We know what it is. And really, what I want to hear from him tomorrow is
17:12
you know what? you should just come out and be real Say you know what I was human I human This is why I did it And you know I did it for the benefit of the country So if you are all going to sack me for that then go ahead But the situation we are in right now with the world the way it is
17:29
the straits being cold one day, closing up days. Starmer is in this already
17:34
He's performed exceptionally well on this particular topic. Yeah, I agree with that
17:44
I think your approach and your stance is a very sensible one
17:50
What you're saying is that you're willing to forgive, even if it comes out that he knew
17:58
as long as he's transparent and honest tomorrow, you think there are bigger factors of state right now
18:04
that we're in the middle of a situation in the Gulf at the moment where we're going to be a laughingstock internationally
18:09
if we dump a leader. Exactly. And to use one of your phrases, Ali
18:13
which you love to use all the time, real politics. That's a very good point
18:18
This is exactly what it is, right? He put in there because of real politics
18:22
No, that's true. Obama's a good guy. He's a good guy. He's trying to, you know
18:26
do the best for the country. He's doing things in people's interest. Yes, he might have made a mistake
18:30
on this particular issue. He may not have known the full, full, full, full extent
18:35
but he knew enough to know everyone knew. And that's my point
18:39
I think, you know, there's no ifs, there's no buts. I think Sir Keir Starmer has either got two options
18:46
either die by a thousand cuts or resign with dignity and admit that he's failed in government, you know
18:53
I think this Lord Manderson affair, Ali, is absolutely stopping. I think, at the very least, he's incompetent
19:02
which means he's not fit to be prime minister. At the very worst, he's misled parliament
19:08
and lied about the whole fiasco, which saves it all and he needs to go
19:13
Either way, I think it's game, set and match for Sir Keir Starmer
19:17
And I also want to say when people say, Ali, oh, Sir Keir Starmer's done a great job, he's done this, he's done this
19:24
He hasn't. And that's the facts. You know, Sir Keir Starmer is a former CBS director of persecutions
19:31
I want to lay out the charge sheet that faces him. When he first was going for office and I was trying to get into power
19:41
he promised so much, but boy, has he failed to deliver. As soon as he came into government, we had the gift game scandal
19:47
where him and senior ministers were receiving, accepting expensive gifts from donors and other people
19:52
You're saying, Mohammed, you shouldn't take glasses from Lord Ali and a couple of suits? Come on, we need our prime minister
19:57
to look the part, come on. Pay it yourself, like we do
20:01
I work, I'm a businessman. You know, I don't go around, you know
20:08
charging the business for my suits or this or that. Muhammad, you know how much a Savile Row suit cost these days
20:14
Come on. No, he's got enough. He's had a career. He's been a career
20:19
He's been well-paced throughout his career. And taking seats from Lord Ali
20:23
or getting Lord Ali to pay for his wife's dresses is absolutely appalling
20:27
And even getting, you know... Okay, okay. Muhammad, tell me this. Tell me this
20:31
You're not a fan, right? And I understand why. I mean, I wasn't a particular fan either, although I do think he's handled this Iran thing as best as he can and much better than the other party leaders out there, certainly
20:41
Val, who you just heard a couple of calls ago, thinks he's done a great job
20:45
Now, in this particular situation, if it were to be the case, and let's hear what all the facts are
20:51
if it is indeed the case that he was not informed by his senior civil servant in the Foreign Office about this vetting failure
21:00
why is it his fault? Why should he resign? I'm going to bring it down to you very simple, Ali, for you
21:08
He is, you know, our prime minister. He's our commander-in-chief, you know
21:14
He appointed Lord Manderson. There was a political appointee. That's true. He should have known what those things were
21:22
Forget about whether he was informed or not. He should have actively seeked to know whether he failed or not
21:29
Given the history about Lord Manderson, and he should have he should have seeked that information i don't i don't agree with what okay
21:35
commander-in-chief commander-in-chief in a way is really the king who's sort of thing but i do
21:40
understand he's leading the government right so your point muhammad is there's a bigger issue for
21:45
you which is the entire approach to this whole thing the fact that he appointed mandelson and
21:50
that he hasn't carried the can for that failure which has blown up in his face irrespective of
21:55
who told what whom uh at what point particular point in time that for you seems like a bit of
22:00
a sideshow, Mohamed. Is that fair? That is fair, Ali. You know, you've got
22:04
to take ownership. In life, we all make mistakes as human beings. And when you make those mistakes
22:10
you have to take ownership. Sir Kiersten Salman needs to do the decent thing
22:14
and get the podium out tomorrow and resign as Prime Minister, go to the House of Commons and start the process of
22:20
electing the next Labour leader and our next Prime Minister. But Mohamed, he's got to hang on for Angie Rayner's
22:26
tax affairs to be sorted out, surely. Forget about Andrew Reyn's tax affairs, you know
22:31
At the moment, Ali, we face a massive crisis, whether it's domestically or internationally
22:38
And having these kind of scandals, you know, taking place, stops a real leader, a real prime minister
22:46
in taking real action, decisive action, and taking us forward and moving the country forward
22:51
Well, there's certainly, look, on that particular point, it's certainly a massive distraction
22:55
I mean, this weekend, I mean, Keir Starmer must be having kittens about tomorrow, rather than worrying about how to get this economy going on the back
23:03
of what's happening in the Gulf. I mean, that's just a fact
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