Up next in 10
Andy Burnham has claimed he is focused on winning a seat in Parliament, rather than ousting Sir Keir Starmer as Prime Minister. Ali Miraj asks his LBC listeners: Is the Mayor of Manchester the messiah Labour need? 00:00 Caller Ian notes that Burnham has never fought a 'competitive' election and wonders if he'll hit the same stumbling blocks as Kamala Harris. 03:34 Caller Peter feels Burnham's oratory makes him more JFK than Kamala Harris... 07:13 Caller Anthony warns against 'false prophets' and believes Burnham's economic offer is a bit 'threadbare'. 09:18 Caller Joshua believes the only party in the UK that thinks of their leader as a 'messiah' is Reform. 12:30 Caller Ayo thinks Burnham has been 'selfish' by seeking a seat in Westminster. 15:52 Caller Simon sees Burnham as the Labour party's Liz Truss. 19:22 Caller Richard is a Labour voter but can't believe none of their 403 MPs challenged Starmer in a leadership contest. 21:38 Caller Lee wants to know what exactly everyone sees in the 'King of the North'. 27:15 Caller Michael disagrees with the premise of the phone-in, insisting that nobody within the Labour party would describe Burnham as 'the messiah'. 32:20 Caller Stephen agrees with Ali that it's embarrassing that nobody in the PLP has put their head above the parapet. 34:17 Caller Semena is torn, but wonders if a 'golden ticket' of Burnham + Streeting is the way forward. 36:16 Caller Anne is in Makerfield and feels a bit daunted by the decision facing her in the by-election. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #ukpolitics #uk #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
What would you like to say
0:01
Well, I just want to say I don't think he is the messiah. He might be the answer, but also I think his strength maybe is very weakness
0:08
His power base in the north is king of the north, greater Manchester mayor
0:12
The trouble is he's never fought a competitive election, Ali. He was a special advisor given a safe seat, as was Lee, I believe in 2001
0:21
The greater Manchester election is not competitive. And I think if I was Labour, at the back of my mind, I'd be slightly worried about two words
0:28
Kamala Harris. She never fought a competitive election against a Republican because she was in a Democrat-dominated state of California
0:36
So I think that's the danger they've got, that he's not been tried in that way competitively against other parties
0:43
But isn't the truth, Ian, that he has actually won successive elections on the trot
0:48
He's been in power in Manchester for 10 years. He's done some interesting things. He's taken control of the bus service, which has apparently improved markedly
0:55
He's got skyscrapers all over Manchester now, so he's attracted business there
0:59
He believes in devolution, and he's earned his reputation as putting Manchester on the map
1:04
He's the Manchester cheerleader-in-chief. Well, I think I could quote that back to you
1:11
You could equally turn that round and describe Boris Johnson. He was a London cheerleader-in-chief
1:17
He did things with the buses and bus lanes, by the way, and also cycle lanes
1:21
And look how that turned out for the country. I mean, I think that the trouble is we won't know until he's actually there
1:26
because you listed a load of things, he believes this, believes that. The proof of the pudding will only be in the eating
1:32
And one comedy note, Ali, one of his beliefs is in all women shortlists for Labour things
1:38
But for some reason, he's thrown that out the window for this by-election. That's very, very interesting
1:44
Ian, do you find it a little bit surprising that we do have someone
1:47
who's also been in power for a long time, a little bit closer to home
1:51
and I'm thinking about London here, but no one's talking about Sir Sadiq Khan
1:55
Why is that? To be brutally honest, Ali, as someone who lives in London who commutes
2:00
when I go to the underground station and I see people barging through, not paying
2:06
when I see people drinking on the underground, nothing being done, and I see Sadiq Khan's little sign saying, you know, you have to behave well
2:14
I think that rather sums up the guy, I'm afraid. I just don't think he's cut through with ordinary people
2:19
And if his record in London was scrutinised, he'd be found failing. And he's another example of there's this inbuilt progressive majority in central London that outweighs everyone else
2:30
And so he could do more or less anything and still get elected
2:34
And that is not healthy. But the only way democracy works is if you can kick the bums out
2:38
We're not inherently superior to the people of Mali or Chad, but we just have a system which means we can kick people out like we did the Tories in 2024
2:46
And I think that the danger for Labour is they see Burnham as this sort of messiah figure coming down from the mountain to rescue them
2:55
And he's not. He's a human being. I mean, he's got he's got some solid achievements. I believe he put an inquiry into the child sex abuse when he became male
3:02
He took some measures on that, which is very positive because of the horrors of that and the stain on our national character, those grooming gangs, especially in the north
3:10
So I think that's to his credit. But, you know, the trouble with all this magical thinking
3:15
that he's suddenly going to come up and he's going to change the socioeconomic issues
3:19
It's not going to happen. Look at France. Look at other countries. They've got the same issues. So you can't – don't try and put everything on the poor guy
3:25
Let's see what happens. Richard says this. He's not the messiah. He's a very naughty boy, says Richard
3:31
Peter in West Hampton. Peter, good afternoon. Yes, hi. Your big, long list of attributes does suggest that he has substance
3:39
But nowadays, you can't function without the ability to make a Henry V on the Eve of Agincourt type speech
3:47
He does remind me a bit of John Kennedy, and he does remind me a bit of the very early Tony Blair
3:54
He really can get up in front of a microphone and express himself
3:58
And this is what Starmer can't do. And I wouldn't use the word messiah, but I think he can pull the fat out of the fire
4:06
he can give a speech which will make Farage look absolutely tawdry
4:12
And Trump does the same thing. OK, but that's all very well, Peter
4:15
But what about the substance around the issues? I mean, fine, you can make a good speech, you can communicate well
4:22
He's a likeable guy. I've said that I like him myself. I mean, he's a wonderful person to have a chat with
4:26
He's very personable, very warm. I'm not denying any of this. What I'm more concerned about is we have some serious, serious challenges
4:34
We've got challenges from AI and the impact on jobs. We've got challenges from an ageing demographic
4:39
We've got challenges from a massively increasing welfare bill. We've got challenges from the debt-to-GDP ratio in this country
4:45
which is close to 100%. We've got challenges of anemic growth. I mean, on all of these things, what's the answer
4:51
It can't just be, let's not be in hock to the bond markets, can it
4:56
No. I was involved with a project in the 90s to produce a three-dimensional television for use with body scanners and so forth
5:06
And we couldn't get money for it because the whole venture capital market is based on security
5:13
You've got to have collateral, which of course is what we didn't have. We have to be able to fund small up-and-coming companies that have got a good idea
5:23
that cannot get investment. And if we do this, we will create those jobs
5:28
AI can't do this. In the end, you've got to have small up and rising companies
5:35
with a good idea have got to be funded, have got to find a way to get their financial problems solved
5:41
Do you think, Peter, one thing, which is Andy Burnham's done a great job in Manchester
5:47
but when you become prime minister, you have to deal with difficult, thorny issues
5:53
like what you do on the welfare bill, like what you do when it comes to allocations of budgets
6:00
like what you do when it comes to immigration policy. This isn't running a greater regional authority
6:07
This is actually running the country. And some of those choices, in fact, a number of those choices
6:12
are deeply, deeply challenging, difficult, and there are always winners and losers
6:18
And you have to be able to deal with the losers and convince them that this is worth doing
6:24
Do you think he's got what it takes? I suspect the country really is just Manchester's problems scaled up a bit
6:31
When it comes to losers, all you've got to do is to turn the losers into winners
6:36
by giving them what they need. If you don't give a plant water, it will die
6:41
Yeah, but OK, Peter, that's where I disagree with you fundamentally. Give the losers what they need
6:47
I mean, really? We also have to tell some of the people who are going to lose some real hard home truths
6:54
that frankly, we can't keep expanding the welfare bill the way we are
6:58
Like Angela Merkel said, we have 7%, or Europe had 7% of the population
7:02
25% of the GDP, 50% of the welfare. She was on to something years ago
7:07
We simply can't go on like this. Peter, thank you. Anthony in Ashford, good afternoon
7:12
Oh, good afternoon, Ali. Yes, I think it's always rather dangerous when we start talking about Messiahs
7:17
because it can very badly, can't it? Especially for a false prophet
7:21
and the other term they use for Manchester is King Cotton You know the symbol of Manchester is the bee of industry and the cotton because it the cotton capital of the world
7:35
To me, Andy Burnham's, well, I don't even know what his agenda is, but I see a rather threadbare tea towel
7:41
because what is his economic offer? I'm not seeing it. Well, he hasn't looked, to be fair, we're going to be finding out all of this
7:48
We've heard him on various elements where he's hinted at his ideas so far
7:52
but he's been running Manchester. To be fair to him, he hasn't been able to outline a full policy prescription
7:58
because we would have been saying that, you know, are you focusing on your Manchester job or are you trying to become PM
8:03
Exactly. Well, they seem to think he's coming as some kind of left-wing firebrand
8:07
the likes of, say, Clive Lewis, Dynaba. We know who's behind this. They're hoping for this turn to state corporatism
8:14
And I think he's a closet playwright. So I think once he gets in, he's going to see the books
8:18
Perhaps he'll keep on reads for a while. See that we're absolutely bust
8:22
I mean, we just had the borrowing figures, haven't we? They're actually through the floor. So this young, well, he's not so young, actually
8:29
He's the way older than Tony Blair when he came in. You know, he might have a youngish image with those shorts
8:33
but sorry, that's where it ends. And he's going to get a lot older since he gets through that door
8:38
They go white, don't they, their hair? Well, they do, they do, and the challenges are absolutely gargantuan that face Andy Burnham
8:45
And I think this is where I really do struggle. Because, number one, I struggle with 403 MPs
8:51
or whatever they have in the House of Commons. that they have to literally go up north, outside parliament
8:57
to go and find someone to save them. I mean, I think that's a real damning indictment
9:01
on the quality of people within the Labour Party in parliament, is it not, number one
9:05
Number two, whoever comes down, be it the King of the North or someone else who's going to descend from the heavens
9:11
the questions are the same. The questions are the same. Anthony, thank you
9:16
Joshua in Birmingham. Hi, Ali. Yeah, hi there. So it sounds to me like you'd receive the lines to take email
9:24
from the Reform UK and the Hard Drive. I haven't. I haven't. I just used my brain, Joshua
9:28
Okay. Well, anyway, look. But why say that? But why say that to me
9:33
Well, I'm just a bit of japery. All right. Fair enough. But we'll also engage with the seriousness. Go on
9:39
Yeah. Let's compare him to the rights. I don't think he's the Messiah, but let's compare him to the rights Messiah, Nigel Farage
9:45
Who has achieved more in politics in terms of actual implementation of policy
9:50
I'm not arguing that at all. No, no, I just want to make it clear
9:55
So Nigel Farage has achieved nothing and Andy Burnham has achieved lots
9:59
Okay? So that gives him much more credibility over the rights messiah
10:04
On that basis alone, the man who everybody's saying should become the next prime minister
10:09
Andy Burnham is already streets ahead. So we can put that to bed straight away
10:13
Yeah? One of your callers said Sadiq's record. Yeah. I think Sadiq's record is brilliant
10:18
Why do they want him then? Why has no one mentioned him? Listen to me, I was going to say I agree with you
10:23
that Sadiq's record is actually... Well, I don't know if you think his record is good, but I don't think they want him because we know why they don't want him
10:29
Why? Because he's a Pakistani man and he's been racially abused and racial abuse
10:34
Who's serious, Josh? You don't think he has? Well, no, no, I'm not talking about the fact
10:38
that he's not been racially abused. I don't know what's happened to Sadiq Khan, but I don't think that you can say that Labour
10:43
the most progressive so-called party that always wants to wear its progressiveness on its sleeve
10:47
and has nightmares at night about the fact that they haven't had a woman leader
10:52
because she should be a woman, is going to discriminate against Sadiq Khan
10:56
because he's a man of Pakistani heritage, is he? You asked me for my opinion
11:00
I didn't necessarily say it was Labour doing that. I said that it's not sensible
11:05
I think they thought it's just not sensible because of the racial abuse and the divisiveness
11:10
with which he is given in this country. I think it just made you know
11:13
Come on, let's not be silly here. Let's not be silly. You know full well
11:17
So you think that the reason why Sir Sadiq Khan is not being talked up
11:21
is because the Labour Party have capitulated to the hard right? Well, I don't just think it's Labour
11:26
I think that they know. Yeah, I do, actually. Yeah, let's just say. OK, all right. Well, fair enough
11:29
We can agree to disagree. Go on. What about David Miliband, Joshua? No one's talking about David Miliband flying in first class from New York
11:36
leaving his £1 million job at the charity, the International Committee for the Red Cross
11:41
Why not? Because he's been well out of action in politics for a long, long, long time
11:45
His time's passed. He probably doesn't want to either. He's earning a million pound a year doing his job over there
11:50
Why would anyone want to come back to this hate fest? But look, Andy Burnham, he's got a proven track record
11:59
He's not my messiah, but what he is, he's almost like the Labour Party's Boris Johnson
12:04
where they just have to give him a try. You know where with Boris there was that period of time
12:09
where he was just constantly knocking at the door but never quite got his chance
12:13
He even stood down in, I think it was around 2018 or something like that from standing in that leadership contest before May
12:19
We've got to see what he is like, and I think that's what the Labour fight are going through
12:24
They just want to see what he's like. Okay, Joshua, thank you. Good to speak to you
12:28
Ayo in Wellington. Ayo. Hello, Ali. Hi. I look at two points of view
12:34
The first one is voters, and the second is competence. Now, going to the first one, voters
12:40
he's acted in a very selfish way and not only him the MP that stood down
12:49
now he was elected as a mayor and he said oh I'll see my time through to 2028
12:56
but all of a sudden as a result of his personal ambition
12:59
and selfishness he just shafts the people of Manchester and then not only that
13:05
he gets an MP who was elected by his constituents he says oh i'll stand out for um barman no that is that just shows total disregard and disdain
13:17
and disrespect maybe it should maybe it shows altruism i know that uh he could have had a
13:23
a perfectly decent life continuing as the king of the north where he is regarded very very highly
13:28
but he wants to take a massive political gamble and a risk to come down to serve the nation and
13:33
to save the Labour Party from its inevitable demise. Well, yeah, he stood out in disreveillant
13:38
Not only him, but the MP who stood down. Who does that? Without any consultation or with his constituents
13:44
he just stands down. He was voted for a time of five years as the MP
13:49
He disregards it. Then the other issue is his competence. Now, what strikes me most about Andy Burnham
13:57
is something you have also placed emphasis on, and that it's the world in hock to the markets
14:05
Well, that's the reality of the world we live in. Even America is in hock to the markets
14:10
Everybody's in hock to the markets. That's the reality. That's the economic reality. So what's he on about
14:16
I don't know, but according to one of his supporters, the bond markets have to fall in line
14:23
I mean, they regard, I mean, the Economist newspaper says this, many Labour politicians see the guilt market
14:27
this is the UK bond market, as a bully that will back down if you stand up to it
14:32
I mean, seriously. Oh, yeah. And what's such naivety? And the other thing is this
14:36
I mean, we talk about personalities, you know, the Labour Party and the government
14:42
It's not personalities. It's not a person. It's the policies that have been entrenched, implemented
14:49
the very, very anti-growth policies that this government has implemented over the years well a few years Well indeed Well we going to see what his priorities are Look if he wins this by he will put paid to anyone who says
15:05
that he can't take on and defeat and win over Reform UK
15:10
That is what the Labour Party is most concerned about. That's what it sees as its existential threat in its backyard
15:16
So he will have then won the right to come down and assume the crown
15:21
If and when that crown gets assumed, the issues and the intray is absolutely mammoth, difficult, challenging
15:28
and he needs to come up with a little bit better policy than don't be bullied by the bond markets
15:34
From Linda in Wigan. I think Andy Burnham would make a good Prime Minister
15:39
Besides that, I fancy him too. It's nice to see, Linda, that you're adopting the same kind of
15:44
elevated political discourse that my mate John in Weybridge is in relation to Al Carnes' jawline
15:51
But there we are. Simon in Basingstoke, good afternoon. Good afternoon, Ali
15:56
It's been an interesting week. Very. I really do hope Andy Burnham does win his seat
16:03
I hope he comes to power because I think that's probably the only way
16:10
that this government will be out of power probably within nine months
16:15
I cannot believe so many people are supportive to him. do they not look at the UK guilts market
16:24
Just the rumours of him standing. And we're back to where we were in 2008
16:32
Do you think, Simon, that instead of Andy Burnham being Labour's messiah
16:38
he could become Labour's Liz Truss? I think he's already Labour's Liz Truss
16:47
I think he'll soon be Labour's Callaghan. Wow. And take them out of power, hopefully for good
16:56
I can think of no party that has betrayed the working class
17:00
that they purport to represent more than the Labour Party has done
17:05
And I think the terrible thing about the last 14 years of Tory government
17:09
was it was just a continuation of the Blair years. Do you think, Simon, and there's an interesting piece by Fraser Nelson
17:17
And in The Times today, there's also a lot of commentary on the bond markets more generally
17:22
Number 10's revolving door turns us into a global laughingstock, says Fraser Nelson
17:27
He says that he's been in Washington this week and he says, seeing it through the eyes of others, a different picture emerges
17:34
Not of a gripping drama, but of a global laughingstock. And he goes on to say this
17:40
It started with Gordon Brown, who Starmer saw last weekend, perhaps to apologize
17:44
The national debt was 37% of GDP when Brown entered Downing Street
17:48
65% when he left. David Cameron's austerity didn't stop the debt rising to 87%
17:53
It's now getting close to 100%. Does Andy Burnham realise how deep an issue that we face here
18:00
I don't think they have a clue. I genuinely don't believe they have a clue
18:07
I think that they have no idea. The damage that will be done, and there's already been done
18:13
not just by this government, let's be fair, the last Tory government was beyond dreadful
18:19
Indeed, I agree with that. But the position they have put us in
18:24
we could have the best government we ever had for 20 years
18:29
It will take that long to repair the damage. There will be people who could vote for the first time
18:35
who will be in their 40s when this country recovers from it, if it ever does
18:41
Indeed. And to be frank, I think the only positive thing for the country if Burnham is elected is that we'll get him before the French with the IMF bailout
18:53
And when France collapses, which is, its figures there are dreadful. I mean, I don't know, why would you want to get back to Europe
19:02
Do they not know how the German and French economies are doing? Well, I'm not sure he's going to be very open about that little plan, if that is indeed his plan, in the Makerfield by-election, because a lot of Brexity-type voters in that seat who in the local elections just overwhelmingly voted for Reform UK. It'll be fascinating to watch. Simon, thank you. Richard in Brentford. Richard, good afternoon
19:22
Oh hi Ali, just so you know I would be inclined to vote Labour so I'm not coming
19:28
at this from an anti-Labour stance but I think your point earlier was very
19:33
telling and not a single MP capable in the house able to stand up as Prime
19:40
Minister. Richard let me just read you this let me just read you this from John
19:45
in Ulverston. It's a damning indictment of the strength of the Labour Party that
19:50
they have to go up north to find a candidate, question mark. What does that mean, other than you are being regionalist
19:55
He's talking to me here. We are quite capable in the north, if you haven't noticed. I'm not saying people in the north are not capable
20:01
What I'm saying is exactly the point you're making, Richard, which is the very fact that you have to go outside of the commons
20:06
when you've got 403 MPs. It's a damning in diamond of the quality of the people you've got in
20:12
It's appalling. And maybe that explains their horrendous decision to go for a more left-wing, a more radical person
20:21
who's going to antagonise the market, who's going to increase the welfare spending
20:25
Yes, absolutely. What possible competition is that for reform voters? I mean, they are deluding themselves
20:33
I mean, I really do think that it's a serious, serious problem
20:37
And just to put it in context on the bond markets and the debt that we face, we've got 96% debt-to-GDP ratio
20:44
This was a few years ago. We were spending 60 billion a year on debt interest. It's now 110 billion a year and rising
20:50
So you basically are on a treadmill running full pelt just to basically stand still
20:57
We're making no headway at all. You know those people, Richard, who economically, those economic illiterate people who said
21:03
fill your boots with cheap debt when interest rates were low, never realizing that a lot of that debt is inflation linked
21:10
and the value of debt can actually go up over time, and it has gone up over time
21:15
and now we're royally stuffed. I think it's probably time the Labour Party finally split
21:22
into the two parties that it is. And, you know, we have a sensible side
21:27
and the other lot who will never, never get into power. Well, we shall see what happens, Richard
21:32
Thank you for your view. Lee in Dartford. Lee, good afternoon. Yeah, hello, Ali. Good afternoon
21:37
What would you like to say, sir? Andy Burnham. Yeah. Can you explain it to me
21:41
Because I'm confused. So I remember the Blair government. I remember Andy Burnham being a cabinet minister in the government
21:48
I can't remember him pulling up any trees. I can't remember thinking, God, Andy Burnham, he's good
21:53
Oh, he could be a future prime minister. No, I'm confused. I'm like, all of a sudden, he's Labour's messiah
22:00
He's going to be a shoo-in at this by-election. And then he's going to, like, obviously go against Keir
22:05
And then all of a sudden he becomes prime minister. What has he actually done? Well, Lee, what they'll say that he's done is that he's actually delivered Manchesterism for Manchester, and he's put Manchester on the map
22:17
And indeed if you look at some of his record in Manchester people would say that it in large part a success story not all down to him But it has its economy growing double at the national rate It also taken back the bus services into public control and it much better in terms of safety
22:37
the tap-in, tap-out system that it's got there. It's got a growing user base
22:41
He's also attracted lots of business there, invested in infrastructure, partnerships with very, very important businesses too
22:47
So I think he has done good stuff for Manchester. I'm not denying that
22:51
but I'm just sceptical that those skills and those things that he's delivered
22:56
will not necessarily stand him in good stead for being Prime Minister. It's a very different job
23:02
Well, that's what I... See, now, I don't live in Manchester, so obviously I don't know what he's done in Manchester
23:07
That's what I was saying. The confusion for me was, like, I don't live in Manchester
23:12
so I don't know what he's actually done. Obviously, you said, oh, he improves the bus
23:15
he's took them back into, like, you know, which is fair enough. But I just feel that it could all go wrong for him
23:22
because, as I say, there's no guarantee he's going to win this if he does go for it that he's going to win this by-election
23:27
yes yes so to become that he's got to give up the mayor he's got to stop becoming mayor of Manchester
23:33
yeah but my understanding I'm a bit confused about this too because my understanding was
23:38
that he doesn't have to resign as mayor of Manchester to stand in the by-election
23:42
maybe someone can call in and confirm this but my understanding is that if he fails
23:47
he can go back to the same job he had now if that's not the case
23:50
I mean I don't know Lee, I was slightly confused because I think I heard one of my colleagues the other day saying that he needed to resign first
23:58
And I was like, really? Does he? And I wasn't sure. I'm still not sure. But I think that the case is that he can go back to doing his job as Manchester mayor if he fails
24:06
I thought he had to resign as mayor. So did I for a second, but it's unclear. He could end up with nothing. So he don't win the by-election
24:14
And then they have to have an election for mayor of Manchester
24:18
Now, what I've heard is, I don't know whether it's true or not, is obviously that this seat that he's going for ain't that safe
24:23
No, it's not that safe. It's not that safe. It could be a reform
24:27
It could be a Greens person wins it. And then as far as I know is, now, I don't know whether it's true or not
24:32
is reform, I believe they're trying to get Maggie Oliver to stand as the mayoral candidate if he has to resign
24:39
for the mayoral candidate of Manchester. Well, Maggie, I have to declare an interest
24:43
I admire greatly that she won. Whether it's true or not, I don't know. She also won the contrarian prize
24:50
Now, just honestly, look, whatever happens to Andy Burnham, and we shall see exactly how this pans out for him
24:58
the reality is if he does win and he does come down and he assumes the mantle in a coronation
25:03
which seems to be what the Labour Party want, he is going to have to face up to some real hard, difficult home truce
25:10
And that includes the welfare bill, which is increasing by the day
25:15
I mean, from what I can see, Lee, he's going to move this country in a leftwards direction
25:20
Which leads me on to my next point. You had a couple of calls before. Why aren't anyone mentioning Sadiq Khan
25:26
Yes, yes. And he was trying to say, yeah, because it's racism. Yeah, yeah, which I didn't know
25:31
Right, OK, fair. But I don't think we'll hold up. Didn't we have a brand prime minister already in Rishi Shoukhan
25:37
That's a good point, actually. And believe it or not, people might say, like, about me
25:43
yeah, you're a bit right-wing, ain't you? I voted for, in the last election, I voted for Tories because it was Rishi Sunak, yeah
25:51
Yes, yes. Obviously, I didn't vote him to become Prime Minister. He just took over, obviously, when everything went wrong and he became Prime Minister
25:57
But the last election, I actually voted for him because when I was having the hustings
26:01
when I was on TV, he actually told us all that what will happen under Labour, all your
26:06
taxes are going to increase, spending will go up, we'll be bankrupt, blah, blah, blah
26:11
He's also said the same thing about trusts. He said Truss's plans were also outlandish and were ending tears, and they did
26:17
And everything he said has been proven right. Now, that's not because he's brand
26:23
And I didn't vote for him because I thought, oh, I want to make myself look good, so I'm going to vote for a brand person
26:29
I voted for him because he seemed to know what was going to happen
26:35
Absolutely. Absolutely right. So that to me is, I just want the best person. He could come from outer space
26:39
He could be purple with pink spots. if they're the best person
26:43
I want the best person I completely know what you mean and that's generally what I think the great British public
26:49
in essence, in large part yes, there are always some racists out there
26:52
but I think the large majority of the British public want exactly what you want Lee
26:56
which is what I want, which is the best qualified person for the job, not someone who's just
27:01
a woman because we haven't had a woman leader in the Labour Party before oh by the way actually, all those progressives
27:06
on the Labour left who wanted a woman and said it must be a woman next time They've all gone rather quiet, haven't they
27:13
We're Andrew Reynos supporters in all of this. Look, I appreciate your job as a journalist is to be provocative
27:18
but I must say, I think the question's a little bit ridiculous. Why? I mean, nobody in the Labour Party has described Burnham as the messiah
27:26
Well, he is, isn't he? 403 MPs, Michael. None of them are good enough. What are you talking about
27:30
No, well, let's do it. Well, firstly, just accept the point nobody's called him the messiah
27:34
No, but he is the messiah, de facto. What would you call it if they're waiting? Go on. I would say they've assessed the people I have around them
27:42
And as a potential candidate to take over, they think he's probably their strongest bet
27:48
Yeah, the messiah. Yeah, the messiah who came down to save us all
27:51
The only party who believes in the messiah in this country is those who follow Nigel Farage, to be fair with you
28:00
What has he done? I didn't line his pocket. Andy Burnham has been a very successful mayor
28:05
who has done the really difficult trick of being both sort of socialist
28:10
looking at those policies, as well as encouraging capitalism in the city
28:15
But why are you so offended by the word Messiah? He's coming down to save us all
28:19
Because it's suggesting he's some sort of godly figure. But he is. But he is according to the Labour Party
28:24
Of course they are. So tell me which politician in the Labour Party has called him a Messiah
28:29
I'm calling him a Messiah. Name one. Hold on, Michael. I'm calling him that
28:33
because the Labour Party has proved itself to be totally and utterly inept
28:38
It even, number one, governing, two, even committing regicide against its own leader
28:44
And number three, is now having to go and look up north to someone who's not even in Parliament
28:48
who's going to create disruption, and actually cause a by-election to come down
28:52
and save us and the country. Can I answer that question? Of course you can
28:56
Look, firstly, as you yourself have suggested, he's charismatic. Yes, I like it
29:02
He has been a very successful mayor who's appealed across this sort of demographic
29:10
So that's relevant. He's also been a cabinet minister in possibly the most successful Labour government that we've ever had when he was working for Tony Blair
29:20
So he has very strong credentials. He's also stood twice and failed before
29:25
Sorry, say that again. He's also stood twice for leader and failed. Yeah, no, I agree
29:28
I mean, he came up against Colton. And sometimes, you know, you're all..
29:33
And yet he is prepared to put his hand up again, potentially at risk to his own career
29:39
I mean, he could stay as mayor. Well, he is staying as mayor. Now, Michael, he's not... Very loved
29:42
But he's not going to... If he wins, he'll stand down. If he loses this, and it's a seat that everybody accepts..
29:49
He'll still carry on. He'll carry on. Yeah, but he'll be dead as a Labour politician, won't he
29:53
He'll never come back again from this. Yeah, but he's already done 10 years as mayor
29:57
I mean, he'll do other stuff after that. Come on. But Ali, please accept that nobody other than you have suggested he's Messiah
30:04
They think he's a good communicator. They think he has managed the difficult task of combining socialism and capitalism
30:11
He's proved what he can do, Ali. Has Farage? Farage can answer for himself
30:17
He's got a few issues to deal with with an investigation at the moment, Nigel Farage. Now, let me ask you this, Michael
30:22
Don't you think it's a little bit embarrassing in terms of the quality of people in Parliament
30:27
I don't just say this about the Labour Party, by the way. I think we've got issues more generally
30:31
amongst the political class. But isn't it embarrassing that out of 403 MPs
30:36
they can't find one of their number to take on Starmer and lead the country? No
30:41
Seriously? No, I don't. I think it's downright embarrassing. You do, but you're a sort of conservative voter
30:49
No, I'm not. No, no, no, no. I've been sitting for the talk. No, no, no, I'm not
30:53
I want what's best for my country. Indeed, I wanted Starmer to continue in post
30:57
because I think this shenanigan is going to harm our country. Well, I think you're wrong
31:03
I think what's going to harm our country is having reform from the next government. Okay, but you're telling me, Michael
31:09
that you're perfectly relaxed and sanguine about the fact that there's not a single person of any
31:15
talent and calibre within the Labour Party that can keynote the Labour Party
31:19
amongst their 403 number. I mean, I find that really, really sad
31:23
Once again, you're making a statement which is just not true. Well, no one's challenged. No one's challenged. I've never said that
31:28
I've never said I've never said Well why is no one standing there Michael? Why is no one standing
31:32
Because they feel on balance Because they're chicken Because they're chicken that's why No
31:39
No no no Michael Michael they're not standing they're not standing because they don't have the votes Right
31:45
First rule of politics First rule of politics learn to count That's just counting
31:49
Yeah exactly Yeah So what does that tell you Michael? It comes back to my point
31:52
403 MPs no one of any calibre to take on the Prime Minister
31:57
have to ask for the King of the North I like the king of the north. Don't get me wrong. I've told you
32:00
I think he's a good guy. I like him. I genuinely think he's a good person, decent person, hardworking person, very personable
32:06
I like him. Right. But the point is, I still think it's lamentable that they have to see him to come down and to save them
32:14
And if you don't call that a messiah issue, I don't know what is. Well, Michael, we can agree to disagree. Good to talk to you
32:20
Stephen in Barnet. Good afternoon. Hi, Ali. Thanks for having me on
32:24
Pleasure. Go ahead. A couple of quick points before I get to my main point
32:29
I totally agree with you that it's embarrassing with 403 MPs. They can't find somebody in the Commons to be the Prime Minister
32:38
It's utterly ludicrous. Secondly, a previous caller I have to disagree with
32:44
who talked about Burnham versus Farage, and Burnham has done a lot more than Farage
32:51
I'm not a Farage supporter, but I would argue that he's been the most influential politician
32:58
in this country this century. He has. But Stephen, all I would say to you, I agree with you on that
33:03
He's been very influential. The history books will absolutely say Farage was one of the most consequential politicians of the last 50 years
33:09
However, the argument, I guess, is he's not run anything. He's not run anything. OK
33:14
Here's my point, though. Using your ogy of the Messiah. Yes. When Pontius Pilate called Barabbas and Jesus out to the votes The public tactically voted for Barabbas And knowing the country as I do
33:31
Andy Burnham isn't going to win this by-election. People, every party are going to vote reform
33:36
just to screw it up for Labour. Well, that's fascinating. And I think Burnham's shown me
33:42
complete and utter tactical unawareness and naivety to think at this point
33:49
that it's so crucial he gets in, the British public will never let it happen
33:54
Well, it's very interesting. I wonder if, well, I'd love to hear from someone in Makerfield
33:59
If you're in Makerfield, then do call in and let me know what you think about what Stephen's just said
34:03
because I'd love to hear from you, because I tell you, the fate of this country
34:07
is in the hands of, what, 80-odd thousand voters in this seat in Wigan
34:12
There we are. Stephen, thank you. Appreciate it. Samina in Tooting. Samina, good afternoon
34:17
Good afternoon, Ali. I would like to remind the listeners that Boris Johnson was the mayor in 2015 and became an MP as well
34:26
And he was an MP for a whole year. And he did this very same thing
34:30
So if anybody complains about him holding on to his mayoralty in Greater Manchester for the time being
34:36
Yeah, I'm not. Boris Johnson did it to come into Parliament. Yeah, absolutely. I've no issue with him
34:40
As far as I'm aware, he doesn't have to stand down at all before he wins. Yeah, absolutely
34:45
And I am quite torn on this because I do think that Keir Starmer needs to go
34:51
And I also think that West Streeting would be a good leadership candidate as well. Two right wing, Samina, for them
34:56
Two right wing for the left wing nutters in the party. Burnham's two left wing
35:00
Burnham's two left wing. Streeting's two right wing. Maybe they could do a golden ticket and maybe Streeting could become the chancellor
35:06
I don't know. But something's got to happen. And just the point about Makefield
35:10
Caroline Lucas did say yesterday that she thinks the Greens shouldn't stand a candidate
35:15
and I honestly think that the Lib Dems and others are going to all vote tactically Makefield
35:20
because they've seen the polls and this is not about the Makefield election
35:24
this is about the next general election I agree with you and it's about keeping Farage out
35:29
so it's way more than just Makefield I think you're right just on the joint ticket issue
35:35
I think that will be an interesting one to watch and I think you're right
35:38
I think you're very politically astute on this because I could see that potentially happening
35:42
although I think Ed Miliband probably covets the job of Chancellor too
35:46
But Burnham, if he gets in, might think, OK, I want to unite the party, I want to keep the bond markets in check
35:52
let's put Street in there, competent minister. But the problem with that is..
35:55
And he's a potential future Prime Minister as well. Potential, but the problem with that is that's not going to placate the people who want endless welfare payments
36:03
on the left of the party who chopped Keir Starmer's legs off when he tried to put in five billion of welfare costs
36:09
It's going to have to be an honest conversation. There absolutely is. Ali, they're not going to get away with those welfare payments anymore
36:15
Well, Samina, that's what I'm worried about. Anne, in Makerfield. Anne, Anne
36:20
Hello? You've got our future in your hands. I know, it's quite daunting
36:26
Yeah. And, you know, I feel... Right, I have to say from the beginning
36:33
I am a Labour voter. I support Josh Simons and have from day one. Right
36:41
And he been an excellent MP so far for Makerfield Why is he standing down Well that is something I like to know and I hoping I going to bump into him somewhere in the town and ask him
36:55
I'm certainly going to hope to bump into Andy Burnham shortly because I've just heard he's down in the town now
37:00
Get down there, Anne. Yeah, well, I know Andy because I'm a waspy woman
37:06
And so I've known Andy for about 10, 11 years. Through that, only through that
37:12
and through meeting him at various events, etc. And I've spoken to him on GMR to do with bus passes
37:22
and things to do with that in Greater Manchester, for which he did try to help
37:26
Okay, good. I'm very impressed with what he's done in Greater Manchester
37:30
Yep. I know people have the reservations and I don't drive, so probably that may affect my feelings
37:37
But I do feel he's done a good job. when he was MP for Lee, he did a good job there
37:43
Yeah. And he worked, he's local. He's lived here for many, many years
37:47
He's from the area, right? He's not being parachuted in. Yeah, he lives down the road, you know
37:52
So, you know, he's very local. But my only but in it is a worry
37:59
that we will lose him as GM mayor and that we've lost Josh as our MP
38:07
Yes. And the worst thing in my eyes, but then this is on my personal opinion, that could happen is that we get a reform MP and a reform mayor of Manchester
38:19
And I'm not impressed by what they have to offer. So I don't want to lose either of them, really
38:27
And that is a big fear. As a Labour voter, I would prefer, maybe controversially, I would prefer Sir Keir Starmer to stay where he is
38:37
Well, I would. I would. And, you know, I'm not exactly partial to Starmer, but I do think in this particular situation, for the reasons I've outlined many times, that he should stick it out
38:47
But I think the Labour Party collectively is deciding to, I mean, from what we're reading, and I mean, many have slipped with Trix Cup and Lip, but it looks like they're going for a coronation of Andy Burnham, if he can get past this
38:58
And have you decided how you're going to vote yet? Yes. Yeah
39:04
Are you going to tell me? yes i will vote for andy burnham yeah i will because at the end of the day it's about my town
39:12
and i hope he gets in and i you know um lots of reform councillors have got in many you know and
39:20
we've heard of some already having to give up we've had one uh elected in our area who is invisible
39:28
i never saw anything before the election i haven't seen anything since uh we're nine days in
39:34
I don't really know anything about the person. I don't know what they stand for
39:40
Whereas the Labour councillor, the main Labour councillor in Ashton is exceptional
39:46
He's really excellent. And tell me something, because at the beginning of this conversation
39:51
you said that it's weighing quite heavily on you, this whole thing
39:55
Yes, it is. When you're making that decision, Anne, I mean, obviously you care about your own constituency
40:01
your own town, you want it to thrive. Of course you do, right? Yes. When you thinking about all of this and you going to cast your vote for Andy Burnham do you also feel that you have a responsibility to the entire country when you casting that vote yes yes i do i feel it weighs very heavily and i think it will weigh very heavily on a lot of my friends
40:25
and family and acquaintances in this area who um you know who do vote labor the only problem i have
40:34
is alternatives, you see, because, you know, I could not, because of my principles and lifelong beliefs
40:44
I could not vote reform. And I would struggle greatly to vote Conservative as well
40:52
because of that. OK, but do you think, Anne, do you think that Andy Burnham
40:56
as you say, it's weighing on you, and it's really, I guess, is it weighing on you because you know
41:01
that you are choosing the next Prime Minister? Is that why? Well, possibly, yeah
41:06
And it's a worry because I think, you know, I think we could end up losing a good MP
41:14
losing a good mayor of Manchester, and then he, you know, and that would be the worst of it
41:22
It would be that neither of them got in. Do you know what I mean? He didn't even get in here
41:26
Well, as I understand, if he loses the by-election, he can still continue as mayor of Manchester
41:30
Yes, he can. So I think you'll probably lose one or the other. you're not going to lose both
41:34
Yeah, not lose both. But we've lost Josh, who's very good. Yes, yes
41:38
And because of all this, that may turn people so that if we needed another MP and not Andy Burnham
41:48
then, you know, they'll vote for someone else. And tell me something, tell me something
41:51
When you're speaking to your neighbours and friends in the area... Yeah
41:58
Is there a feeling at all that you're sort of being treated like pawns in some sort of greater..
42:05
Right, tell me about this. Yes. It's kind of... We feel that we've drawn the short straw
42:12
that our good MP is standing down and we're standing on the edge of a cliff, really
42:19
because of the way that reform has performed in Wigan. And I believe that this morning
42:26
I believe that a reform bus has turned up a couple of miles away on a car park in Sainsbury's
42:35
and being turfed off, I believe, as James would call him, 30p Lee was on the bus. Right
42:42
And there are reform people and restore people all over the town
42:47
Yep. And it's quite scary because the rest of the country is looking at us and thinking, you know
42:55
that we have this responsibility. You do, you do. It really is frightening
42:59
and like I say, although because of, I believe I have beliefs and principles that I've
43:05
stood by all my life and I cannot change them, whoever you know, I can't change them
43:11
and can I just say that look you sound like a very very
43:15
sensible, level-headed, serious individual and I'm very glad that you're conducting your
43:21
civic duty in weighing this up very very carefully, you've said you're going to go for Andy Burnham
43:25
I respect your decision because you are At the moment, because I don't know who the alternatives are
43:30
OK, but you're making that decision for the entire country, because I think, frankly, if he does win that by-election
43:37
I think he's a shoo-in for Prime Minister. Best of luck making the decision, Anne
#news