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In this week's episode, Lewis Goodall and LBC's Deputy Political Editor Aggie Chamber discuss: 0:00 - Local elections fallout and Labour leadership bids 16:56 - Labour’s pledge to rejoin the EU 19:06 - Josh Simons, the MP stepping down in Makersfield Andy Burnham and Wes Streeting have both said they would seek a mandate to rejoin the European Union if they were elected Labour Party leader. In a speech on Saturday, Mr Streeting ramped up further pressure on Sir Keir Starmer by officially confirming his intention to replace him as Prime Minister while calling for Britain to rejoin the European Union. Speaking publicly for the first time since quitting Government on Thursday, the former health secretary told the conference that leaving the EU was a “catastrophic mistake", adding that Britain needed a new “special relationship” with the EU, because "Britain’s future lies with Europe, and one day back in the European Union". Mr Streeting also suggested that closer ties with Europe would help “rebuild our economy and trade, and improve our defence against the shared threats from Russian aggression and America First”. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #lewisgoodall #aggiechambre #starmer #ukpolitics #debate #andyburnham #news #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Right, Aga, we've just finished the Sunday show, which of course is on from 10 to 12 every Sunday, if you don't listen already
0:05
And why wouldn't you be? Why wouldn't you be? But just in case you weren't, we're going to go through exactly what we learned and what we didn't learn
0:10
Look, we're at this. We are. I can't quite think. I know, you know, you sort of run out of ways to sort of say that we've not been here before
0:17
But we've really not like not been here before. Right. In British politics, in the sense that what we basically have now, we're in a situation where only a week ago
0:25
So Keir Starmer was on the eve of giving his make or break speech, which turned out to largely be break
0:31
And at the end of the week, we're now in a situation where we know Andy Burnham has a shot at returning to Parliament
0:37
And therefore, we've now got a by-election, which will be on June 18th. So pretty much a month's time, which is in effect going to be a kind of prime ministerial primary
0:46
almost direct prime ministerial election where one constituency basically has the ability probably to select the next prime minister or veto the next prime minister
0:54
like that's new it's it's sort of head blowing up stuff isn't it it's just extraordinary to think
1:00
how quickly this has moved from local election absolute drubbing wales scotland terrible for
1:06
starmer i'm gonna be prime minister for 10 years well i think that absolutely screwed him didn't
1:10
it saying i'm gonna be prime minister for 10 years 10 weeks mate well or 10 days i don't know it just
1:16
seems it would seem like a really really really tone deaf um thing to say and now this morning
1:22
We've got cabinet ministers coming out basically apologising to the nation. Culture Secretary, stability is the change
1:29
Do you now wince listening back to those words? No, I don't wince, but I want to apologise to people
1:36
because I think the point that you're making, Lewis, is right. I think we were elected to bring an end to the chaos
1:42
and to create real change in people's lives. I think we've started to make that change
1:47
I think the message that we got when we got an absolute kicking at the ballot box last Thursday
1:52
was that that change needs to be bigger, bolder, more urgent, more fundamental
1:57
But I don't think anybody wants to see what unfolded this week. They want to see a government
2:01
that responds to that call, raises our game and goes out and delivers for them
2:06
And yeah, so, I mean, that's Lisa Nanny being direct. I think as direct as she can be, right
2:12
With regards to all that. And you do have to, I mean, they do have to kind of find a vocabulary for it, right
2:16
Which is that obviously Labour did promise this stability. Labour did say that that, in effect, would be the change
2:22
I mean, the intro actually into that question was me playing her a clip of Rachel Reeve during the 2024 election
2:28
saying something which I have to say I always thought was hostage to fortune, but nonetheless saying that a vote for Labour in its election, the stability will be the change
2:34
Now, not only is that a pretty boring and slightly insipid kind of campaign slogan
2:39
but also it was a sort of hostage to fortune from the very beginning, right? Because what if you can't do it, which they haven't been able to do for whatever reason
2:45
and for reasons that we might be able to talk about. But I think one of the other things is, obviously, the question which we still don't know the answer to
2:52
which is the same at the start of the week, something that hasn't changed, is exactly how long Keir Starmer will be Prime Minister, right
2:58
Because there is now all this speculation. There is contradictory accounts in the papers today
3:02
some saying that he is preparing to announce a timetable for his resignation
3:07
and some saying that actually his position has not changed at all, which is status quo ante, I'm staying around
3:14
and if there is a leadership election, I'll fight it. I asked Lisa Nandy whether he would be setting out a timetable this week
3:21
So I don't think he will. I mean, and I don't think he should
3:25
I mean, it's entirely, it's his choice. But I want to be clear what I mean by that
3:29
It is his choice and it's the choice of Labour MPs and ultimately the country, whether he serves as Prime Minister
3:35
But he has been absolutely crystal clear with me in discussions in private
3:39
and with the Cabinet on Tuesday that there has been no leadership contest
3:44
If there is a contest that is triggered, he will stand as a candidate in that contest
3:49
I think he feels a heavy sense of responsibility for the promises that we made two years ago
3:55
and I don't think he believes that he has the right to walk away. I don't want to put words into his mouth
4:00
but I can tell you that in the conversations that we've had, he is absolutely focused on getting on with the job
4:08
and heeding the message of change that people sent to us last week in the local elections
4:13
Do you think he'll be Prime Minister by the end of the year? Well, look, I mean, I've given up making predictions
4:17
on anything in British politics. I think I've consistently predicted most of the events
4:22
of recent turbulent years wrong, but I think he's won the right to do so
4:27
Lewis, I just find that absolutely extraordinary. You have a Cabinet Minister sitting in Sir Keir Starmer's Cabinet
4:33
who doesn't just say yes when you say, will he still be Prime Minister at the end of the year
4:38
And of course you can't say yes, because nobody thinks that Keir Starmer is still going to be prime minister at the end of the year
4:43
He could be, but it is seriously unlikely. And just to give you some idea of the level of anger
4:48
I mean, I spoke to a former minister earlier today who basically said he was squatting in number 10
4:54
and that nobody thought that there was any chance that he was going to remain in place
4:59
It really was just a question of when he goes, no longer if. Yeah, I mean, it's funny, isn't it
5:04
You kind of like when you're doing those interviews, you know, you always kind of like have a little, you're having this constant sort of internal monologue which is kind of which
5:11
bits do you push back on which bits do you express surprise over which bits do
5:15
you sort of push back more and I did consider sort of expressing your
5:19
incredulity which is like I mean you know you're in his cabinet and I know you're saying you know no one's asking you to be you know on polymarket or
5:25
something but it a genuine kind of like reasonable question to be like you in his cabinet surely you can tell a country that he going to be prime minister And I didn partly because I thought to myself in a way Lewis you know she being honest with you
5:37
You always want politicians to kind of be reasonably straightforward. And she's being honest. If she were to turn around to go, yeah, of course he will be, which some would have done
5:44
I suspect, you know, God love it. Steve Reid, who's the prime minister's closest friend in politics
5:49
If he'd been there, he'd have been absolutely, of course he will. You know, and he should be
5:53
But she was being straightforward. and the fact is most people don't think he will be
5:57
No, I think that's completely right. And I think it wasn't unexpected this week
6:04
the fact that the National Executive Committee on Friday allowed Andy Burnham to stand as a stand for selection in Makerfield
6:13
But it was a big moment still. I mean, this is the same National Executive Committee
6:16
that blocked Andy Burnham earlier in the year because Kiersten was strong enough then to do it
6:22
And on Friday, let's face it, He just simply wasn't strong enough to actually be able to block Andy Burnham
6:27
And I think that was really just showed us the moment of surrender, really, because Andy Burnham is coming for his job
6:33
I agree. I mean, it is an extraordinary moment. Keir Starmer is basically being asked, as the leader of the Labour Party
6:39
to oversee, to put resources into, to send his own ministers, cabinet ministers, MPs
6:46
to fight in an election which is predicated on his own demise. You know, that's the only, only way of seeing it
6:52
It's basically a kind of slow motion, frame by frame coup that he is expected to participate in or to organise
7:01
And that is another reason why this feels so unprecedented. And I think you're right
7:06
That moment of surrender, because it was surrender, that moment of acquiescence, let's put it slightly more charitably
7:12
that moment of acquiescence where he allows the NEC or indicates the NEC to allow Burnham to stand
7:20
that is the moment, you're right, of crystallisation, that this isn't Keir Starmer's Labour Party anymore
7:24
It's not his Labour Party anymore, at least for the time being. I want to ask you a question, though
7:28
You said that there's a world he might survive. I'm just sort of thinking
7:32
what's the scenario that Starmer does survive this? Because there is one, right
7:38
There is just about one, I think. I think it's hard to see, because my own take is, I think
7:43
that whether Burnham wins or loses... If Burnham wins, Burnham's coming for his job
7:48
If he loses, then the Labour Party will be so engulfed by a sense of panic and emotion
7:56
which will be, Christ almighty, if Burnham can't win with his positive ratings
8:02
and being King of the North, Mr Manchester, and he can't win in that seat
8:07
then Christ almighty, none of us will be able to. And that will make panic and that will create emotion and poison
8:12
and then there'll be a really bitter leadership election. That's what I sort of think. But is there a world where there's a third scenario where Starmer clings on
8:18
I think if Burnham has an excellent campaign and then loses, which is still possible
8:24
lest we forget in the locals, we got, what, 52% for reform, 20-something for Labour
8:29
It's a really tough seat for any Labour person to win. And also, just on that, there is some audacity from some figures
8:36
who basically suggest that Burnham wanted to fight this really difficult seat to prove that he can beat reform
8:43
I mean, I have spoken to MPs who had conversations with Andy Burnham about them giving up their seats for Andy Burnham
8:47
he was just trying to find a seat i think we do just need to put that on the record but imagine
8:52
can you imagine where he's like you know what i'm waiting for makerfield oh you know what thanks
8:56
very much thanks very much for that 25 000 majority seat i'll bank it that's safe but i'm just waiting
9:02
i love makerfield so i love those lads i just want to go and stand there i need to prove myself
9:06
in makerfield all right all right but if he has if he has a bad campaign um which i'm not saying he
9:13
will but if he has a bad campaign if he's seen to implode you know less we forget uh a conference
9:19
when he had a huge backlash when he made those comments to the new statesman about being in
9:23
hock to the bond markets if there is something like that and he loses probably possibly because
9:28
of that then i think the labor party might just look around and think okay well there is where's
9:33
treaty there is ed milliband there is angela reina but actually kia starmer there's been this crisis
9:37
in the middle east a new one donald trump's doing x kia starmer is good on the foreign stage does
9:42
it just peter out i think it's unlikely but potentially possible i suppose there is another
9:48
one way if he wins i mean if i was starma thinking how do i survive that then the obvious play would
9:54
be to offer burnham a seat in the cabinet on day one either as you know some big senior job like
9:59
home secretary maybe big reshuffle or maybe you create a job like you know big new super like
10:05
regional development ministry leveling up ministry or whatever it is and you offer him there and it's
10:11
I don't know, just the mechanics of him winning, it's hard for him to turn down a job, right
10:15
And hard for him on day one to turn up at the Palace of Westminster gates, get sworn in and go, right, leadership election
10:22
And that's what I haven't figured out yet. I've asked so many people this question, but does Burnham challenge on day one
10:27
That's what he is intending to do, right? He's intending to come to Westminster and challenge Keir Starmer
10:32
But does he do that on day one? Does he immediately have the numbers
10:35
I know probably he does, but there are a lot of MPs that he doesn't really know
10:40
Does he need to... He's been out of Parliament since 2017? Yeah, exactly. Ten years nearly
10:44
Does he need to do a bit of work in Westminster to actually get those numbers over the line
10:48
to have those conversations, to have that debate in Westminster? And also it's a slightly different debate
10:53
because the debate he's going to be having in Makerfield, there's a different audience
10:57
Those are the people of Makerfield as opposed to Labour Party members So I don know exactly when he going to challenge That also then rests on has Keir Starmer already set out a timetable in which case we know when the contest is
11:08
and we know when someone else is going to take over. And it would probably be quite handy for Burnham
11:12
if Starmer were not to say, right, I'm off sooner rather than later
11:15
because that allows him to maintain this kind of I'm battling to save the Labour Party from Starmer kind of narrative
11:22
which he wouldn't be able to do. I mean, something that might, we talk about how difficult this seat might be
11:26
and we should remind ourselves, you know, Makerfield, Yeah, it's been Labour forever, but it's been one of those seats that's been drifting bit by bit away from Labour
11:34
And certainly during the last election, you know, if you'd added the Tory and reform vote together, then that would have been greater than the Labour majority
11:44
So it's been drifting away, heavily Brexit voting. And what happens to the first two days of the campaign, partly thanks to the former health secretary, Wes Treating, speaking at a rally over the weekend
11:56
they've reopened the Pandora's box of Brexit and suggesting, Streeting, that he wants to rejoin the EU
12:03
Maybe not immediately, but certainly at some point. Something that Andy Burnham has also said in the past
12:07
Yeah, Andy Burnham said it at a conference last year, saying, long term, I'm going to be honest, I'm going to say I want to rejoin it
12:12
Look, in my lifetime, I hope to see this country rejoin the EU
12:16
Where Streeting's saying yesterday, Brexit was a catastrophic mistake, also calling for the UK one day to be back in the EU
12:23
And I bet where Streeting is absolutely devastated that this is the debate that is being had when Andy Burnham is fighting a 65 percent leave voting seat in Makerfield
12:35
And Andy Burnham yesterday did not want to go as far as he'd gone before. So he said to ITV in the long term, there's a case for that
12:41
But I'm not advocating that in this by-election. But it does seem like, you know, it's that audience thing again, right
12:47
Streeting's talking to Labour members. And at the moment, Andy Burnham is speaking to the people of Makerfield
12:53
Well, as you say, I mean, you know, Streeting knows what he's doing, right
12:58
Like, I mean, this week he has, he resigned this week. I don't think he had a choice but to resign this week, right
13:06
He'd led everyone up the hill. Allies who had literally resigned from the government. If he hadn't done it, I think would have been the end of his political career
13:12
But he also knows that, you know, the numbers of people coming forward to support him in Parliament
13:20
was not perhaps as great as he would have liked it to be. And his line at the moment, of course
13:26
is that he would like there to be a leadership contest, think there ought to be a leadership contest
13:31
He says he has the votes to orchestrate and trigger a leadership contest
13:36
but that he very, very generously, in order to have the widest possible debate
13:42
with the best players on the pitch, this phrase we keep hearing again and again and again
13:46
from Labour people, is waiting to have that leadership contest for Andy Burnham's return to Parliament
13:53
thereby apparently making West Streeting the only guy who thinks he could win an election in history
13:58
who is nonetheless waiting for someone who could beat him in that election to join the race
14:02
But that is his line. Now, I find this, as you might be able to tell from my tone
14:06
a little bit dubious. No. No, I know. Such a cynic, such a cynic
14:11
Anyway, and I put that cynicism to one of his closest allies
14:17
someone who introduced him at that rally yesterday, the MP for Kettering, Rosie writing
14:22
You're right. He could have gone into a contest this week, but what he chose to do was make a principle decision
14:29
to have all the best talent that we have in the Labour Party on the pitch
14:33
Or is it actually Rosie writing, as they say, or is it actually Rosie writing, as they say
14:37
in the musical Hamilton, he just don't have the votes? No, I do enjoy that musical, I would say
14:43
But no, we had the numbers and we saw, and I would say as well
14:49
like we saw multiple resignations from all kinds of different people with different views on what should happen in both in members of the government
14:57
but also backbenchers. He ain't got the votes. Come on, Rosie. He ain't got the vote. Come on
15:01
He hasn't. If he had the votes and he thought he could win, he'd have done it. He didn't have done it
15:04
They didn't materialize. And now he's trying to make it seem like a great big principle decision
15:08
He ain't got the votes. That's as simple as that. No, that isn't what happened at all
15:12
It was a choice in that moment to push us into a leadership competition, which very clearly people wanted to hear from Andy Burnham
15:22
There is obviously cynicism from lots of different people about whether or not West Streeting had the votes
15:27
But I was getting messages when it was unclear, really unclear earlier in the week what was going to happen with people suggesting, you know, people close to Andy Burnham
15:35
suggesting that it would have been illegitimate for West Streeting to win a leadership contest without Andy Burnham being in the race
15:41
So you can imagine the fury there would have been if he had managed to launch a leadership bid and won
15:49
But it feels to me that this EU stuff, I mean, look, that is streeting with an eye on a political world where Burnham doesn't win
15:56
which is very, very possible in Makerfield, because then you have that scenario, I said
16:01
where the Labour Party is looking for a leadership contest from the candidates that it has in Parliament
16:05
And we know that although it might not go down brilliantly in those red wall seats
16:10
The Labour Party membership itself, who will be ultimately choosing between those contestants
16:15
is very, very pro-EU and overwhelmingly pro-EU. That's one of the reasons Starmer got the leadership in the first place
16:21
Not that he campaigned on it in the aftermath of the 2019 election
16:25
but because he was well favoured by Labour Party members for being seen as the guy pushing for Remain and pushing for a second referendum from within Jeremy Corbyn Labour Party So it the same trick sort of all over again Yeah I think that right I mean what people are arguing or trying to argue is that the Labour Party has been
16:42
terrible at having fights, at making arguments for things. Which is true
16:46
One of the reasons that they have failed seems too far or the moment they are failing, I
16:52
would say, with the public looking at the results in the local election. But they are going to get massive, massive blowback
16:58
I mean, if it's a fight they're looking for, they're going to get a fight. Because listen to what Andrew Bowie, the Conservative shadow minister, said to you on the EU earlier today
17:06
No, absolutely not. I think it's the last thing this country needs. More division, distraction, another referendum
17:11
You know, I think the British people are sick fed up of talking about the EU
17:15
What we as legislators and people elected into Parliament should be doing is actually focusing on the powers that we have now outside the EU to improve lives
17:24
for the British people to improve our economy and make this country a better place
17:28
and not fighting the battles of yesterday. I just want to say something very quickly
17:33
about Andrew Bowen and the Conservatives, not about Bowen specifically, but I have to say, you know
17:39
the Tories are getting a bit of an easy ride at the moment, it feels to me, in terms of the politics. I mean, yeah, OK, Labour Party is unstable
17:45
but they are being unstable in reaction to what were terrible election results
17:50
And guess what? In a democracy, parties respond to the messages they're getting from voters
17:54
they should do, right? Like, and, you know, if you're sat there thinking, why isn't Labour Party more stable
18:00
If the Labour Party had done well in those elections, or even just all right, even just a bit of a mild drubbing
18:05
there wouldn't be a problem. Starmu would go on, right? So people are getting, in a sense
18:09
what they voted for. Tories did terribly in those, like, dreadfully, like, dreadful
18:14
They turn around and be like, oh, we're coming back in Westminster. Oh, whoop-de-doo, comrades. Oh, here we go
18:19
Only another, what, like 300 local authorities later you might be getting somewhere. I ask people like Andrew Bowie, when are you going to start winning
18:25
And they say, well, we're making progress. And you're not making that much progress. You're just doing slightly less badly than you did the year before
18:31
And also comparing it to a different benchmark to the one that everyone else is comparing it to
18:36
Saying, well, it's about last year. It's not about last year. Like, Kim is really popular. She can't be that bloody popular, can she
18:41
Because if she were that popular, people would actually be looking at her as a potential alternative prime minister
18:44
Whereas right now, she just basically seems to be everybody's favourite Twitter account
18:48
But there was this extraordinary speech from Kevin Badenock the day after the local elections where from her tone and what she was saying, I was like, hang on, did you do well
18:56
Yeah, I know. What am I missing? I know. I mean, there's confidence. And then there's just like, you know, it's taking the ****
19:01
Quite frankly, I think we might be in that category right now. Look, there's one other thing, of course, which is that Josh Simons, I think still just about is the MP for Makerfield
19:10
He's about not to be the MP for Makerfield because he's the guy who's allowed all this Burnham stuff to happen because he's the guy who's resigned to make way for him
19:19
It is an interesting thing, isn't it? Because he's so young. He's not like you might have expected some old vet who didn't have much time in politics left to clear the way
19:27
Instead, we've got a guy who hasn't even been in Parliament for two years. Yeah, he's 32. He's 32, newly elected, was a minister until he resigned over the sort of Labour together scandal
19:40
Yes. But he was very much, I mean, 2024, it's like Josh Simons
19:45
This is this guy's a rising star, proper kind of rising star territory
19:49
And he is the guy who is resigning his seat for Randy Burnham
19:53
And I mean, that is extraordinary in itself. But potentially there's been some sort of, we don't know, deal done
20:00
He denied that to me on the show today. But maybe I'm sure he'll be back in some way
20:06
He did say that they've had conversations about long term what he might be able to do. which is politicians speak for
20:12
We might have hatched something up. Anyway, look, I did put to him
20:16
what does this question about, well, what does it say about the Labour Party? They've got over 400 MPs
20:20
and you're having to make way for a guy who isn't even one of their number to become prime minister
20:25
This is what he said. No, I mean, there are some great politicians in the Labour Party
20:29
You know, Rosie, who you just had on before me is a great example of someone who's, you know, not spent ages in politics
20:34
She's got this young, fresh perspective and she always speaks from that perspective and from the heart
20:38
So there are loads of great MPs. lots of whom actually people have not necessarily heard of at this point
20:44
But the thing about Andy that was different to those people is that he's left that bubble
20:49
And it really is a bubble. It's like mad how much it's a bubble and how much it distracts you from what's really going on
20:54
And I think that does give him a way of speaking, a way of thinking
20:58
and actually, most importantly of all, a way of feeling about how people feel
21:02
and feeling his way through issues that is different to the kind of basic way
21:06
that Westminster almost forces you to be. and I think that is exactly what people want to see
21:10
He's got the feels. He's got the feels. Feels and vibes. Feels and vibes
21:15
That's what politics is all about. Did you enjoy his running? Andy Burnham's running
21:19
Those were short shorts, weren't they? I'm a fan of the short shorts. I like short shorts, but they were very short
21:25
The shortest of shorts. Did he do that on purpose? He wasn't once just running down a dual carriageway
21:30
On the M40. Dual carriageway. And I was like, surely this was not planned
21:35
Surely. But he does live near the motorway, to be fair. I've interviewed him outside his house
21:39
And he does. I wasn't invited in. And it was very, it was unusually close to the most
21:44
So I can sort of believe it. But I mean, yeah, it's not ideal running. No. Ideal running territory
21:49
Good pictures for TV, though. He's running. Good pictures for TV. Hey, look, someone put it to me as like
21:53
and in One Fell Stroop, as ridiculous as that is, it's still a better photo op than Keir Starman's managed
21:57
in six old years. So there we go. Look, where will we be next week? Well, I'm going to quote Lisa Nandy
22:04
I'm done making predictions. And with that, we'll see you next week. Bye-bye
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