Up next in 10
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 10th of June, 2026. 00:00 - Homes set on fire in Belfast night of violence as MP says people targeted based on skin colour - Why does Elon Musk appear to want this? 52:44 - What's it like being a person of colour in this country at the moment? 01:38:39 – PMQs – Natasha Clark, LBC’s Political Editor 02:07:01 - I watched Belfast burn as masked mobs hunted for violence and police vanished from the streets - Andy Hughes, LBC's Crime Correspondent 02:17:55 - Interview with RAF veteran Malcolm Ducker, who participated in the Global Sumud Flotilla to Gaza last month Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jamesobrien #politics #lbc LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
It is three minutes after 10 and you probably don't need me to tell you what unfolded on the
0:10
streets of the United Kingdom last night. You can glance at a television screen to see burnt
0:16
out cars and burnt out homes. It is and it's a word that we've used before but very very carefully
0:24
because it's such a redolent word, it's such a resonant word, it's such a horrible word
0:30
but the word is pogrom. When people, entirely innocent people, are identified by violent, even murderous mobs
0:38
precisely because of their ethnicity or their religion or their immutable characteristics
0:46
A violent organised riot or mob attack directed against a specific ethnic, religious or national minority
0:55
I guess there's an argument to be made for this not being specific enough to qualify as a pogrom
1:01
It is simply being a foreigner or being a dark-skinned immigrant that painted a target on your back in Belfast last night
1:08
just as was the case during the Farage riots last summer when, of course, a woman subsequently feted on stage
1:15
at the Reform UK conference literally called for a pogrom, called for people to be burnt in their beds
1:21
But, of course, Farage will be popping up soon to get his toes tickled in various studios
1:26
In fact, I'm surprised nobody's invited him to do an ersatz version of Desert Island Discs so far
1:32
after the latest ludicrous lies about him being somehow banned from that programme
1:37
Unfortunately, I've realised when I say things like that in 2026, I have to have a quick yet
1:43
So unfortunately, no tummy ticklers have invited Nigel Farage to record an ersatz version of Desert Island Discs
1:49
while buying into the lie that he's been banned from the actual programme, dot, dot, dot, yet
1:55
and this morning there is a piece in one of your newspapers by me which was filed at three o'clock
2:01
yesterday and which appears under the headline um farage's ugly new narrative will tear the uk
2:08
apart explaining how the shift from pretending to be concerned about immigration statistics to
2:14
attempting to malign everybody of color everybody of color is now well underway and coming close to
2:22
irreversible. Let me show you how it works, because history, of course, teaches us when you
2:27
start identifying people as being a problem by dint of their ethnicity or their background rather
2:34
than their behaviour. The number of aliens entering this country can be seen by the number of
2:39
prosecutions in recent months. It is very difficult for the alien to escape the vigilance of the
2:45
police and port authorities. Even if aliens manage to break through the defences, it is not long
2:50
before they are caught and deported. And this, of course, refers to a judge speaking in 1938
3:00
about Jewish people in this country, in a courtroom in this country
3:06
It gets worse. I'll share the rest of it with you shortly. I mean, actually, it doesn't
3:12
I can share it with you now. Whether it's aliens in 1938 or illegals in 2019
3:17
when I last brought that quote to your attention, or 2026 when I'll remind you of it now
3:24
This is not happening by accident. People are calling for it. Stephen Yaxley-Lennon is in..
3:30
This is going to make you sit bolt upright if you're not already aware of it
3:35
Stephen Yaxley-Lennon is currently in Moscow with Elon Musk's father. Elon Musk's father, of course
3:42
probably best known for impregnating his own stepdaughter. And Stephen Yaxley-Lennon on social media yesterday
3:49
owned by Elon Musk calling for violence, or at least calling for riots
3:53
and Elon Musk has called for violence on the streets of our country. And violence directed not at
3:59
and I don't know what word you prefer, scumbags, not at the scumbags who have committed crimes
4:04
because nobody defends them, nobody welcomes that, nobody excuses that sort of behaviour
4:12
But you don't attack, I don't attack you because of something you've done by someone you've never met
4:18
I don't attack your house because a criminal you've never heard of
4:24
committed a crime 100 yards away yesterday. It's insane what we are witnessing
4:29
Absolutely insane, but it is, unfortunately, real. This is from one journalist on the ground
4:36
near the Shank Hill Road last night. On a residential street draped in loyalist flags
4:41
near Belfast Shank Hill Road, the masked men approached a house with a boarded-up window
4:45
and a security camera stationed outside. As a woman from an ethnic minority background looked down from an upstairs window
4:52
some of the men rushed to the front door and broke it down. With the air thick with smoke from fireworks, they attacked the downstairs window with bricks
5:00
As they stormed the property, some claimed to be liberating it. Graffiti nearby demanded local homes for local people
5:07
A woman in the crowd said to her friend, There's wee girls inside. Nearby, a car was set on fire
5:13
As the chaos unfolded, a man in a skull face mask told onlookers to put their phones away
5:18
Helicopters circled overhead and two police officers looked on from their car nearby
5:23
A smoke billowed towards the sky. I'll say it again. Absolutely everybody condemns the man responsible for the hideous scenes that we witnessed or saw online
5:36
and on our screens from Belfort. Literally nobody defends him. But if you extrapolate from him and from his behaviour conclusions about anybody else
5:46
then you might as well say that everybody in Belfast is running around wearing a skull face mask
5:50
setting fire to ethnic minority homes. That extrapolation, that collective punishment, is precisely the point of attempts to conflate criminality by one person with everybody
6:04
After the Southport killings, a crime committed by one person was somehow laid at the door of innocent people
6:10
hundreds of miles away, staying in repurposed hotels. After Henry Novak was killed
6:16
the experience of Sikhs in this country worsened immeasurably almost overnight. The attempts by people
6:23
and I don't need to keep telling you who they are, but the attempts by people to conflate a criminal
6:29
with an entire community are as old as humanity itself. We saw it in Germany during the 1930s
6:37
it led to pogroms, and then it led to the Holocaust. Because a pogrom, make no mistake
6:41
is simply one step on the road towards much, much worse things
6:47
Once one is allowed, the rest will follow. And speaking of Stephen Yaxley-Lennon
6:56
listen, there's no phone-in to be had about the crime itself. A, because someone's been charged
7:01
which means there's nothing we can say about it, and B, because whatever you might be reading on Elon Musk's social media
7:07
Everybody condemns it and everybody hates it. I can even understand how a carefully cultivated
7:14
position feeds into the idea that it could somehow have been prevented if we didn't allow any refugees into the country, which
7:21
in a way is technically true So I don even have particular beef with people who been lulled into that school of thought I mean it effectively equivalent to saying we could eradicate crime altogether if we abolished human beings
7:36
Because guess what? Primary school teachers commit horrible crimes. School caretakers commit
7:42
horrible crimes. Family doctors commit horrible crimes. Owners of football clubs commit horrible
7:48
crimes. Capricorns commit horrible crimes. Milkmen commit horrible crimes. Sagittarians commit I mean every single, however you
7:58
choose to define a community whether you're defining fans of Kidaminster Harriers football
8:04
club or refugees, whatever descriptors you choose to lump us into a group
8:12
there will be people in that group who do terrible things. There will
8:16
be people in just about every imaginable group. I was taught by monks for much of my school days
8:24
Some of those monks did terrible things, things so terrible that at my school they're no longer
8:28
allowed anywhere near the boys. So all monks are paedophiles, would be the logical conclusion of
8:35
the kind of rhetoric that we're seeing from the usual suspects today. Homes, listen, I'm a radio
8:43
phone-in host, right? Every single day I talk about the news. And in recent years, a lot of the news
8:49
has been heading in a direction that all decent people find hideous. But there are some days where
8:54
you just need to stop and repeat yourself again and again and again. Homes were set alight in the
9:01
United Kingdom yesterday in apparent response to a hideous crime committed by one hideous person
9:10
homes were set alight in the United Kingdom yesterday homes of people who had never met
9:17
the perpetrator, the alleged perpetrator homes of people who had never met the
9:22
criminal, homes of people who until yesterday like you and like me didn't
9:26
know that the perpetrator even existed didn't know that the criminal even
9:29
existed, the homes of people who couldn't have told you his name at this time
9:34
yesterday and couldn't tell you his name today, homes of people who had
9:37
absolutely nothing to do with what happened in Belfast yesterday. After the Southport killings, the homes, the beds
9:50
the streets, the communities of people who had absolutely nothing to do with the killings of
9:57
four little girls in Southport were attacked. They were set fire to. The police attempting to
10:02
protect civilians and citizens from a rampaging violent mob dancing to the tune of racist
10:08
provocateurs, some of whom are now in Parliament, they got attacked. They got things thrown at them
10:14
The police came under attack in Southampton last week after the footage, the hideous footage
10:21
emerged, the unbearable heartbreaking footage emerged of Henry Novak being handcuffed and
10:26
disbelieved by police after he had been the victim of what would quickly become a murder
10:32
but the judge and the father of the victim and the pathologist and the prosecution lawyer all
10:39
laid out for the benefit of anybody interested in knowing what happened all laid out the facts
10:44
and then people chose to ignore the facts people chose to expressly ignore the facts in the hope
10:54
of whipping up precisely the sort of violence that we saw in southampton last week and that
10:58
we saw in Belfast last night. This shouldn't be difficult. The person responsible for a crime
11:06
is the perpetrator. Whatever you think about immigration in general or refugees in particular
11:13
the idea that they are all responsible or all to be held accountable or all to be punished
11:19
for the actions of an individual are ridiculous. The monster who killed Henry Novak was not an
11:26
immigrant. He was no more an immigrant than Nigel Farage's children are immigrants. They both have immigrant parent
11:32
An immigrant parent. The person who killed the little girls in Southport was not an
11:38
immigrant. And even if he was, it wouldn't matter because it wouldn't
11:42
say anything about immigration. The fact that any more than a monk says anything about all monks or
11:48
a Capricorn says anything about all Capricorns. Or, that story last week that I told you nobody would mention
11:54
and I wish I'd been wrong, I spend my life at the moment wishing I've been wrong
11:58
Imagine writing an article at three o'clock yesterday explaining how Farage was priming the fuse
12:05
was lighting the blue touch paper for effectively pogroms in this country
12:10
and then watching the footage from Belfast last night. But the story last week about the Saudi Arabian student in Cambridge
12:18
who was stabbed to death entirely unprovoked has received practically zero column inches
12:23
because the vicious killer was white and the victim was brown. But I don't draw conclusions about everybody white in Cambridge
12:31
any more than I draw conclusions about everybody who takes cocaine, as the perpetrator reportedly did
12:37
Which brings us back to Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, who is in Russia with Elon Musk's father
12:44
praising Russia while calling for violence on the streets of the United Kingdom
12:48
praising Russia while calling for violence on the streets of the United Kingdom
12:54
protecting our women while hanging out with a man who impregnated his own stepdaughter twice
12:59
and Elon Musk is on your social media calling for violence on the streets of Britain not only
13:08
calling for violence on the streets of Britain um calling for unprovoked violence explaining that
13:13
if you don't fight first, then you will somehow be a victim
13:17
As if everybody who is Sudanese, or everybody who is Sikh, or everybody who is Muslim, or everybody who is black
13:24
or everybody who is brown, or everybody who is Chinese, or everybody who is French, or everybody who is German
13:31
as if every single one of them is possessed of exactly the same mindset as the other one
13:35
and they are all defined by the worst examples of their kind
13:39
it's it's i mean it's do you know they even found that the bloke who musk is amplifying at the moment
13:47
is um and this is a another element of the stories that are unfolding at the minute that is
13:54
um unbelievable there's a website account i'm not going to tell you what it's called but i'll tell
13:58
you that at the moment elon musk is amplifying it some hours after they posted elon musk was
14:05
always right. You either fight back or you die. They've even found that that account is completely
14:11
bogus. It's someone based in India who is a crypto scanner. He uses his online activity to
14:19
draw potential victims into his crypto scam. There are many counts of dodgy crypto out there
14:26
but this one happily doesn't sit in British Parliament, refusing to answer questions
14:31
about a secret £5 million gift he received from a crypto billionaire
14:35
shortly before announcing policies that would be to the enormous benefit of crypto billionaires
14:42
It's hard to know what question to ask today. It's hard to know what question to ask today
14:50
But I think the question is, why does Elon Musk want race wars on the streets of the United Kingdom you either fight back or you die How do you fight back against someone who been arrested
15:06
How do you fight back against someone who's in jail? Answer, well, you set fire to the homes of completely innocent people
15:15
Listen, I could be wrong. Maybe you've got another answer to that question. How do you fight back against someone who's in jail
15:22
So the two perpetrators, one alleged, one convicted, of the two crimes that have prompted potential and actual pogroms
15:29
on the streets of our country, our country, my country, your country
15:33
pogroms on the streets of our country in 2026, the two crimes that have prompted it have already secured
15:41
one conviction, one life sentence for murder, and one arrest in the other case
15:46
There is no perpetrator at large. How do you fight back against that? How do we fight back against Ian Huntley
15:53
How do we fight back against Fred West? How do we fight back against Harold Shipman
15:57
How do we fight back against him? Because if you don't fight back, you die. How do you fight back against people who are in prison
16:04
You don't, do you? You can see this. Where do you direct your pure cold rage
16:09
if the person responsible for the thing that you're furious about is already serving a life sentence
16:14
Where do you direct your pure cold rage about a crime whose perpetrator has already been convicted and jailed
16:22
Is that a rhetorical question? Do we all know the answer to that
16:28
You direct your pure cold rage at people who look like the criminal, James. I don't know how many days away we are from hearing them say that bit out loud
16:38
but at the moment it's a whistle, right? It's a dog whistle. Unless you've got a different answer
16:43
how do you fight back against people who are in prison where do you direct your pure cold rage
16:49
about a crime committed by somebody who has been convicted and jailed but what exactly is the target
16:56
here because when somebody is killed who isn't um white or somebody commits a murder who is white
17:04
none of these comments ever really appear we're never told how do we fight back against sarah
17:09
Everard's killer. Oh, we don't, because Nigel Farage told us when Sarah Everard
17:13
was murdered that, oh, we mustn't blame all men and we mustn't blame the police. But when Henry Novak is murdered, we blame all
17:19
immigrants, we blame all Sikhs, well, not all immigrants, not the mother of his children, but, you know
17:25
the brown ones, the black ones. Sarah Everard gets murdered and that man says, don't
17:31
blame the police, don't blame all men. Henry Novak gets murdered and remember, ten years ago
17:37
People with names like Novak were the problem. People with names like Novak were undermining British values
17:43
People with names like Novak were storming our borders and taking over our country
17:48
Ten years later, that ship has sailed. And all of the brown faces that possibly were born here
17:55
or that have arrived here as a direct consequence of the huge holes left in our economy by Brexit
18:00
all of those faces have become the enemy. And I mean all of them. Whether they realise it or not
18:05
Even the ones that appear on platforms with him. Even the Sikhs that used to go on EDL marches are in the firing line now
18:13
Their big mate Tommy, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, the serial criminal and great friend of Elon Musk's father
18:18
who is best known for impregnating his own stepdaughter, hashtag protect our women
18:24
They're in the firing line now. Because it isn't about logic. It isn't about, oh, they're all right, oh, you're okay
18:32
It's about finding something awful and pretending that people who had nothing to do with it
18:37
are responsible and punishing them accordingly. As a woman from an ethnic minority background
18:45
looked down from an upstairs window, some of the men rushed to the front door and broke it down
18:50
The air thick with smoke from fireworks, they attacked the downstairs window with bricks
18:54
As they stormed the property, some claimed to be liberating it. Graffiti nearby demanded local homes for local people
19:02
A woman in the crowd said to her friend, there's wee girls inside. What has that got to do with the savagery we saw on the streets of Belfast
19:09
What has that got to do with anything except pogroms? A desire to punish everybody of a certain
19:18
background, a certain ethnicity, a certain appearance for the actions of an individual
19:24
I said to you during the... There is a Northern Irish angle to this that we will explore, but
19:30
but not first and not foremost. I mean, I wouldn't describe it as constituting good news necessarily
19:38
but there is a particular perspective here that is Northern Irish. These are almost certainly loyalist gangs
19:46
that are always on the lookout for this sort of opportunity. It's not, I mean, it's usually Catholics that are on the receiving end of it
19:53
but there are, I mean, I'll explain more about that shortly, but I don't think that's the key issue here
19:58
The key issue is fascists in skull masks going door to door, pulling migrants out of their homes and then setting those homes on fire
20:07
Why does Elon Musk want to see these sorts of scenes on our streets
20:19
Sam Friedman, one of my favourite writers, I've told you many times his substack is required reading, puts it best, as he often does
20:26
Everyone on X and elsewhere who called for a violent response should be charged with incitement
20:32
Everyone involved in the pogrom should be locked up with exemplary sentences
20:36
Government should make it clear that will be the response in future anywhere else
20:40
Enough. There is no more about, this is no more about the details of immigration policy than the pogroms my great-great-grandparents fled were about Jews committing crimes
20:50
It's a straightforward, it's straightforward racist violence and it needs the strongest possible response
20:58
Why does Elon Musk want straightforward racist violence on our streets? 0345 6060 973. Why
21:07
He signed up Yaxley-Lennon to whip up these mobs. They put out loads of calls last night for gatherings
21:14
but it was done in such a characteristically half-baked way that some of the places that they called for people to gather
21:20
didn't even exist, and others were inaccessible to the public. That's what happens when you use AI to try to start pogroms
21:27
But why? 0345 6060 973 is the number you need. James O'Brien on LBC
21:38
That article I quoted you from 1938, it even talks about backdoors
21:43
which the people who didn't understand Northern Ireland when they called for Brexit
21:47
it and don't understand it now when they start talking about backdoors are already doing
21:52
The way stateless Jews and Germans are pouring in from every port
21:55
of this country is becoming an outrage. I intend to enforce the law to
21:59
the fullest. In these words, Mr. Herbert Metcalf, the old street magistrate yesterday referred to the number
22:05
of aliens entering this country through the backdoor. A problem to which, wait for it, the Daily Mail
22:11
has repeatedly pointed. That's almost a hundred years ago, this. 1938. The number of aliens
22:17
entering this country can be seen by the number of prosecutions in recent months
22:21
Oh yes, because they're all criminals. It is very difficult for the alien to escape the increasing vigilance of the police and port authorities And I think pogroms in Germany were already underway That what these poor people were running away from
22:36
I don't know what people in Belfast, who may or may not be recent arrivals, were running away from
22:41
I don't know what the ones who were refugees were running away from, but they've run straight into violence
22:46
They've run straight into horrors. And I think that the crucial point for me this morning
22:50
is the fact that it has been called for. It has literally been called for
22:56
It is being promoted. It is being advertised. It is being provoked
23:00
It is being promulgated on social media, particularly on Elon Musk's platform
23:07
formerly known as Twitter. And he, the owner, is joining in. And I want you to tell me why
23:15
I remember telling you some time ago, I'm not going to take a call before the news, sorry
23:20
just so you know, But if you want to be fussed on after the news, the number you need is 03456060973
23:26
And the question I want you to answer is, why does Elon Musk want this? That's all. Why does he want this
23:33
You probably know more about him than I do. All I know is that shortly before I left his platform
23:39
I was almost deluged by footage of crimes being committed by people of colour
23:46
Didn't matter where they were. It didn't matter what the background was. It didn't matter what the context was
23:51
if the criminal was dark-skinned and violent, it was being pushed to a degree
23:58
that I didn't understand then and I don't understand now. Why on earth would somebody who has no interest
24:03
in watching that sort of thing be deluged by it? You know? Why
24:09
Because it was being deliberately put in front of people. Again, as with adolescents
24:14
art sometimes does a better job than journalism. And if you watch Tiptoe, the new Russell T. Davis drama on Channel 4
24:19
you'll see what's happening to David Morris. his character as he watches an increasingly unleavened diet of online violence, carefully
24:27
cultivated, engineered to convince him that the gays or the foreigners are all the enemy
24:34
And it's happening on the thing that you've got in your pocket. It's happening on the thing that
24:39
you've got in your pocket. It's not only being used to create fake images of child sexual abuse
24:44
It's being used to foment race war. It's being used to provoke precisely the sort of activities
24:51
that we saw on the streets of Belfast last night. Twitter is being used to create this nightmare scenario
24:59
And one of the key creators of it is currently in Moscow with the owner's father
25:05
a man best known for impregnating his own stepdaughter. Twice. Hashtag protect our women
25:11
Why? I hope this isn't a silly question. But I don't know the answer
25:16
Why? Why would the richest man in the world want to see pogroms on the streets of the United Kingdom
25:21
Unless, of course, and absolutely you are welcome to explain to me that he doesn't
25:27
When he says you have to fight back, brackets, against people in prison, close brackets
25:31
by attacking people not in prison, I don't know. Maybe that isn't what he's calling for when he promotes these messages and these people
25:41
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 10.34 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
25:52
Do you ever sort of think that you, well, you must think it as, I must be wrong
26:00
I must be wrong because it's so obviously bad. The fact that they're doing it means I must be missing something
26:08
Is that a sort of warped form of modesty? a form of intellectual modesty
26:13
not something I'm often accused of. But Keir Starmer has posted a condemnation
26:18
of the scenes in Belfast last night. He has, because plenty of people will either not know this
26:23
or, more importantly, perhaps pretend not to know this. Yesterday, already posted, I mean
26:29
an unstinting condemnation of the scenes that were filmed. And he's stuck it on X
26:36
the scenes in Belfast last night were shocking and completely unacceptable said the Prime Minister on a platform
26:44
owned by a man who, as far as I can tell, and I'm open to persuasion
26:48
called for them I'll say that again because I am the scenes in Belfast
26:56
last night were shocking and completely unacceptable said the Prime Minister on a platform
27:00
owned by a man who called for them and his father is currently
27:03
hanging out in Moscow with Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. That's what it comes down to, he posted yesterday
27:11
Elon Musk was always right. You either fight back or you die. This while the pogroms were unfolding
27:17
As Sunder Catwiler puts it, he has been openly arguing for the value and necessity of violence in the UK
27:23
against migrants and minorities as an existential threat for nine months. He has now doubled down on it during a dangerous and heightened flashpoint
27:32
you go back a couple of years actually less than a year
27:37
it is time for the English to ally with the hard men like Tommy Robinson
27:40
a man so hard he doesn't even use his real name in public and fight for their survival
27:45
or they shall surely all die that's from two years ago almost
27:49
29th of October 2025 2 million views in its first hour and what does Keir Starmer do
27:54
he posts his condemnation on the platform that the bloke owns this isn't the phone in
28:00
the phone in is why does Elon Musk want pogroms on British streets. 03456060973
28:07
But it may be that we need to talk about this as well
28:12
There is no justification for the violence and disorder brackets, literally called for by the owner of the platform
28:19
upon which I'm posting this condemnation, that we saw threatening our communities
28:23
not for those who encouraged it, online or elsewhere. Am I losing the plot entirely
28:28
or is this like getting on a bus to condemn buses? It is clear that people were targeted last night
28:36
because of their background and I will not tolerate it, said the Prime Minister on a platform owned by a man calling for it
28:43
Those responsible will feel the full force of the law. I've spoken to the Chief Constable of the..
28:48
Well, who is responsible for it? The perpetrators or the provocateurs? Yaxley Lennon is living it up with Elon Musk's dad in Moscow
28:57
while his mugs are getting jailed. The mugs who answered his call to arms in Southampton last week
29:05
are getting locked up at a rate of knots while he's sipping Negronis with Elon Musk's father
29:10
best known for impregnating his own stepdaughter, twice. Hashtag save our women, protect our girls, end hashtag
29:18
He's living it up, singing Vladimir Putin's praises in a nine-star Moscow hotel with Elon Musk's father
29:25
while his mugs, his marks, his victims, his customers, his sponsors are getting jailed for answering his call to arms in Southampton
29:36
And the Prime Minister has gone on the platform owned by the bloke that's picking up Yaxley-Lennon's legal bills
29:42
to condemn the violence that they've both called for. As I said, that's not the Anglos expecting to pursue this morning
29:51
But it's bonkers, right? Oh, we have to get on there in order to get our message to people
29:56
Right. Why does Elon Musk... want pogroms on the streets of the United Kingdom
30:02
And why the fudge is the Prime Minister using his platform to condemn them
30:11
I think you might be able to answer the first question. I'm not sure anybody can answer the second
30:16
Jo's in Fulham. Jo, what would you like to say? I think it's a radical white supremacist agenda
30:22
And I do think they are trying to stoke up such division in our country
30:27
that it leads to civil war, right? because I can't imagine you're going to have
30:32
I live in London, I'm black, I can't imagine you're going to have white thugs
30:38
kicking down doors in my area expecting to attack ethnic minorities and people don't fight back
30:46
I mean, have you met ethnic minorities lately? We've been so steeped in this for so long
30:51
Of course we're going to fight back. It will be ugly. It's disgusting
30:55
If someone kicks down my door, James, if someone kicks down your door
30:59
tomorrow with your kids inside and your wife, you'd be on it
31:03
Right? So this is what they're trying to do. Raise it to the ground and then build it up in their
31:09
own image. What image is that? What image is that, do you think
31:13
It's a white male image. That's what it is. You've got to think about Elon Musk's
31:19
psychology, right? He was raised in a society that was built on the necks and the
31:25
backs of black Africans. Right? And during his time that was completely turned around right and they feel that the rug was pulled from under
31:34
them this is not uh this is not a lovey-dovey household of affection and comfort and kindness
31:39
like you say his dad whatever happened between him and his step-step daughter elon musk doesn't
31:45
even have a good relationship with his father right it's none of it was love it was heinous
31:50
it was it was it was evil it was wicked that's what was going on inside his home he doesn't have
31:56
love in his heart or any of that goodness he wants to end things end things the way that they
32:02
are now and turn back the clock that's what he wants to do i i mean i guess it's the clash isn't
32:11
it of of psychology and logic because everything you say makes makes quite a lot of sense um
32:17
about being uprooted from the country he grew up in and having it blamed on on black people
32:22
presumably, I don't know the circumstances of his childhood, but his father isn't
32:26
exactly what you'd call an obvious role model best known for having impregnated his own
32:30
stepdaughter twice one of my correspondents puts it thus catharsis for that brainwashed boy who
32:36
had to leave his home at a young age who was repeatedly told over and over by a psychotic
32:41
abuser that white people had natural dominion over blacks and that the world order comes to an end when the blacks
32:46
achieve dominance themselves we're all being held hostage by a deeply unwell
32:50
wreckage of a man and then you give him all the money in the world
32:55
and then you give him all the power you sit him next to Donald Trump in the Oval House
32:59
he becomes best friends with Tommy Robinson and Nigel Farage and the AFD
33:04
what do you think this man is going to do? it's never going to be good for anyone but him
33:09
and people who look like him that he likes at that moment so what does it look like
33:14
I mean, is that a silly question? for me, this looks like a world where I don't live in the UK
33:19
what does the world he wants look like? Oh, sorry, you are answering that question, I think
33:23
He wants a world where people like him are on top and people who are not like him are underneath him
33:30
whether that's women, whether that's people with disabilities, whether that's ethnic minorities
33:35
whether that's people who don't have as much money, whether that's people who aren't as smart, right
33:39
He doesn't want them anywhere near him and he doesn't want them anywhere near any kind of power
33:44
or control or influence. He doesn't want it. It doesn't make sense to him
33:49
It's a mad thing, isn't it? I mean, it's almost biblical. You can be the richest man in the world and still hateful and miserable
33:57
It's only mad if you weren't raised in his household. You're raised in your household
34:01
You're raised in my household. We think this stuff is crazy, right? We know that you go to Asia, you get all types of people
34:07
You go to Africa, you get all types of people. You go to Europe, you get all types of people
34:11
He doesn't know that. He literally thinks there's something in the genes of people who aren't like him
34:16
that's deficient, right? And therefore, he wants them gone. Therefore, he wants them somewhere else
34:22
Therefore, he wants them with nothing. You've got to get into his mindset
34:26
His mindset. It's not your mindset. It's his mindset. It's scary, right
34:32
Of course. I don't, I mean, I kind of don't want to use that word
34:36
I want to find it ridiculous, but it wasn't my house that was set fire to last night
34:41
You can't fight that with funny, can you? No, no, absolutely not
34:45
This is what I was going to say. I'm three generations deep, ethnic minority in this country and I now have children we are moving if Nigel Farage gets in
34:55
backed by people like these we are gone I've already applied for our passports elsewhere
35:00
and I'm not the only one I have teacher friends I have lawyer friends I have doctor friends I am a
35:05
doctor we are going because if someone bangs down my door and comes after me and my kid then I'm
35:11
going to go to jail better I just get up and go now because I mean the the I think the BBC report
35:18
is one that I haven't read out yet. Quoting the MP for one of the Belfast MPs
35:23
the leader of the SDLP. What you're seeing is a race-based pogrom
35:28
We are seeing men going door-to-door asking to get the foreigners out based exclusively on the colour of their skin
35:34
It's not based on what they're contributing to society, what their status here is
35:37
and it's terrifying for people in Belfast who want this sort of politics to be far beyond them
35:42
That's Claire Hanna, the leader of the Social Democratic and Labour Party
35:46
And I guess it's a bit of white privilege kicking in because part of me wants to say, oh, no, they don't mean you, Joe
35:52
But you read that they're going door to door asking to get the foreigners out based exclusively on the color of their skin, not how long they've lived here, not where their parents grew up, not what they contribute to society, not what their role is, not what they do, not who they are, but what they are
36:08
Then that is your door one day. Do you know what one of the saddest things is, before I go
36:13
One of the saddest things is that I have so many white friends. I grew up in West London, in Greenford in the 1980s
36:20
So many white friends. And now I wonder how many of them sympathize
36:26
That must be awful. That must be absolutely awful. And Facebook sometimes provides a glimpse or an insight into how many
36:34
quotes, sympathize, end quotes. But it's never going to provide the full picture
36:38
And those are the people who would say, I don't mean you. They are
36:43
I don't mean you. I mean, because they don't just mean the criminals either
36:47
That's easy. We can all agree on that. There's no punishment strong enough for Henry Novak's killer
36:53
There's no punishment strong enough for people enacting savagery on the streets of Belfast
36:57
We can all agree about that. But some people want to punish you. You
37:02
And it makes no sense. Go on. Well, I think we lost the phone line
37:08
We'd maybe just let her come back and finish that point. The time now is 10.45
37:12
James O'Brien on LBC. How do you fight back against someone in prison
37:18
Where do you direct your pure cold rage about a crime committed by someone
37:24
who has been convicted and sentenced to life in jail These are really important questions that you unlikely to hear asked on ersatz versions of Desert Island Discs designed to tickle the tummy of the man
37:36
who is unleashing levels of inter-community violence in this country, the likes of which we rarely but not never see
37:45
Where do you direct your pure cold rage about a crime committed by someone who's already in prison
37:52
How do you fight back against someone who's already in custody. Answer, that's not what they want, is it
37:59
And they've told us. I mean, you know, it's not even debatable
38:04
I don't even think it's one to run by the lawyers. They've told us
38:08
Elon Musk has told us that this is what he wants. Elon Musk has told us that you either fight back or you die
38:16
It's time for the English to ally with all the hard men
38:21
like Tommy Robinson, serial criminals. friend of his dad best known for impregnating his own stepdaughter twice hashtag protect our women
38:29
and it's there you you have to go out and attack immigrants because otherwise they will
38:35
attack you and i don't know that the mobs that we saw in belfast last night would actually have
38:41
needed much encouragement to be honest with you it's um a febrile environment at the best of times
38:47
but the the fact is it could spread it spread last summer there were desperate attempts to make it
38:53
spread last night, posted from a Moscow hotel where Yaxley Lennon has currently
38:58
got his snout in the trough with Elon Musk's father. But they want it
39:05
And I want you to tell me why. Mo's in Birmingham. Mo, why does the richest man in the world
39:09
want pogroms in Belfast? I know one thing about Elon Musk, in my opinion
39:16
He has... He will do anything to anyone that impinges on his
39:21
ability to make money. I don't agree with... Well, I mean, I don't disagree with you
39:27
but I don't think that's what this is about. He's losing money on Twitter
39:32
He must be losing four millions on Twitter. Twitter is his tool to bend governments to his will
39:41
to dictate which way elections run, to, you know, amplify the sort of message that he wants
39:48
I personally think there will be an aspect of right-wing white supremacism in his philosophy from the fact that he was greatly moulded by apartheid areas of South Africa
40:02
I do not doubt that plays a part in there. But everything I look at him, I see a man that actually has very little ideology
40:12
I'll run through a couple of examples here. He was happily willing to turn on Trump when Trump was threatening to put a load of tariffs on exports that Tesla got from China
40:25
And on the flip side, he was happy to support Trump when Trump was looking to get elected back as president in America
40:34
Alternative think here. he I think sees this current Labour government Keir Starmer's Labour government
40:41
as someone that does not is not favourable to what he wants to do
40:46
in terms of business here in the UK and he will use all tools available to him
40:51
and Twitter's a great tool there for him to sort of bend this Labour government to his will
40:57
I mean there's a lot of moving parts here so the idea of
41:02
yeah but what if it's not about the money you see here's a thought
41:05
which hadn't occurred to me before. What if the bogus narrative of our freedom of speech
41:10
being somehow compromised by the Labour government, an accusation that's regularly levelled at us
41:17
by members of Donald Trump's administration who literally have a hit list of journalists on their own website
41:23
and have orchestrated the removal of journalists from news organisations and late-night entertainment shows
41:29
for having the audacity to criticise the president. So, I mean, leaving aside the epic hypocrisy of that
41:35
What if Musk's motivation in pretending and lying about us having a free speech issue is not about actually ensuring that the money taps stay on and resisting regulation that would cost him money
41:52
It's about ensuring that he's still got Twitter in its current form to incite precisely the sort of behavior that we saw last night
42:01
So he doesn't really care about the money side of Twitter. that's not where his money comes from
42:06
Twitter is his loud hailer. It's the loud hailer through which his white supremacism
42:11
since he bought it and brought back the biggest racists in recent British history
42:15
and amplified them and promoted them and paid them, he wants Twitter to be unregulated and uncensored
42:25
because he wants the racist lies to be louder than the truth and he needs the racist lies to be louder than the truth
42:32
in order to incite the sort of violence that we saw last night. So that is why the bogus narrative of free speech being under threat
42:40
is being enforced by him and by J.D. Vance and by others. I think, look, at this moment of time here
42:47
he perceives, and I'm not going to call them racist for the fact
42:50
that it could be libelous and so on, he perceives at the moment that people like Nigel Farage
42:57
dare I say, Kemmy Badenock or, you know, Rupert Lowe are more business-friendly to what he wants to do here in the UK
43:05
I don't think that's true. I wish you were right almost, because it's digestible, the commercial imperative
43:11
The primacy of profit is easy to swallow, but white supremacist violence is not
43:16
It doesn't make sense. You're trying to make sense of it. I don't think it's got anything to do with business
43:22
I think the business is the loud hailer. It's not about the Benjamins. It's not about the revenues
43:27
It's not about anything except... He looked at Twitter and he saw what happened when ordinary people are in charge of potentially mass media
43:36
And he hated it because it wasn't racist and it wasn't promoting hatred
43:40
and it wasn't pretending to believe that being white is somehow better than being brown or being black
43:47
It wasn't enforcing all of the weird beliefs and prejudices and bigotries and hatreds that define his character
43:54
It was making him feel ashamed. So he bought it and turned it into a reflection of his own warped soul
43:59
I'll say one thing as a devil's advocate here. We agree he's a businessman who loves making money
44:06
Yeah, but I don't think that's got anything to do with the conversation that we're having. Let's continue on then with this narrative
44:13
He obviously has ridden his horse on the right-wing white supremacism here
44:21
He's a bright guy, I think. He must be possessed of a diabolical genius, mustn't he
44:27
He talks about his love of history and whatever else and looks back on everything
44:31
What in his mind thinks that white supremacism is going to deliver him prosperity
44:36
Nothing. He doesn't care about the prosperity of it. I honestly think you're barking up the wrong tree on this one
44:44
But as I always say on the programme, I could be wrong. I mean, people made huge fortunes out of Nazism, of course
44:51
the ones that were in place. If you give five million quid to a politician secretly, then you sit back hope for that politician to become Prime Minister and even though you already super rich you going to be super super super mega mega mega mega rich by the time he is no longer Prime Minister But I just don see Musk in that category
45:07
You can't be richer than the richest man in the world. And he's already the richest man in the world
45:11
I think he's using his money to drive an entirely different part of his appetites
45:16
It's the desire to see brown and black people suffer, all of them
45:21
including the ones that are currently sharing platforms with the politicians that he sponsors
45:25
and I just think of the Sikhs on the EDL march. Actually, just give me a ring if you're one of them
45:32
because how are you feeling now? You've seen where Yaxley-Lennon stands on people like you
45:36
You're an invader, mate. Even if you've been on five EDL marches
45:40
and sent all your wages to Stephen Yaxley-Lennon to get stuck into when he's staying in a Moscow hotel
45:48
with Elon Musk's father, best known for impregnating his own stepdaughter twice
45:53
hashtag protect our girls i i don't i mean i just i think i almost think you're being naive
45:58
which isn't like you i i almost think that the the financial argument here is utterly utterly moot
46:05
i don't think it's got anything to do with what's going on i mean there'll be some money made some
46:10
people promoting the footage some people promoting the lies the provocations will make a few quid but
46:15
um not him it's not his fortune that is affected by these things it's uh fortunes of the people
46:21
online, including the crypto scammer based in India posting anti-immigrant hatred all over Twitter
46:31
and being promoted and amplified by Elon Musk, who could find at the press of a button
46:36
that the bloke he's amplifying is an Indian crypto scammer promoting racism on our streets
46:43
So there's not even a pretense of caring about the truth or about reality
46:48
I wonder what it is. I guess it is going to be the white supremacism. So
46:53
do we move, thank you Mo, take care, do we move the question then on to the
46:56
blue sky element of it, the Prime Minister, the Twitter element of
47:01
it. The Prime Minister is posting his condemnation of pogroms that were called for
47:05
by the owner of the platform that he's posting his condemnation on. Lewis
47:09
is in Malpass near Chester. Lewis, what would you like to say? Hi James
47:13
good morning. I actually have to kind of echo what your last caller
47:17
just said, and so you're probably going to shoot me down. I'm not going to shoot you down
47:21
I just think you're being a bit naive. Well, I was going to just build on it a little bit, because I think you're too kind of into
47:29
the whole Twitter side of it, but I think his other businesses have bigger dreams, bigger pictures
47:35
And I think the whole culture war side of it, I don't think he really cares about that
47:40
I don't think it's a key driver to him. This is bad. It's who he is
47:45
I think it's very much a means to an end. Don't get me wrong. I think you're doing that yourself
47:50
His background, etc. It obviously plays some sort of part, but I think he sees the culture wars
47:56
very much as a means to an end. Very much like Nigel Farage, very much like Tommy Robson. But what, no
48:00
Because they get into Downing Street. Yaxley Lennon gets rich. What does Musk get out of it
48:06
Well, so this... You kind of now have to go into the background of American businessmen
48:12
Go on, then. So I'll leave you on a little bit of a trail. Remember, I'm not being patronising
48:17
He is already the richest man in the world. No, I agree. But he also has bigger dreams of colonising Mars, etc
48:23
So I think he needs a lot more money. And how does white supremacism advance those dreams? So it's about the destruction of societies and things like that
48:31
So if you look at the past American history, well, not even that far back
48:37
but they go into various countries, South America, Middle East, etc., and they work off the basis of you destroy a country
48:44
you rebuild it, it's more profitable to do it that way. You move in American industry, you move in American businesses
48:49
you rebuild it, far more profitable than trying to look for opportunities to grow countries
48:53
So you bank up with them with loans, you bribe them, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera
48:58
Okay, yeah, you're... Yeah, okay, I can see some sense of what you're saying
49:02
The thing that prompted me to ring you up was because it suddenly popped into my mind as you were speaking
49:07
In the Epstein files, funny enough, is the... Big fan of Stephen Yaxley-Lennon Epstein
49:14
Big fan, huge. Hashtag protect our women. Hashtag save our girls. Some of the Trump advisors and things like that
49:22
about destroying the UK with Brexit and looking for opportunities within the engineering of Brexit
49:28
to profit, right? So he said himself, it's far more profitable to..
49:34
To disrupt and dismantle. Exactly. And that's what he's doing. So from a businessman perspective
49:42
and the whole engineering of culture wars etc is a means to an ends um trump trump doesn't really
49:50
care that much about them i i i'm going to continue to disagree with you but but but you
49:55
and mo may be making more sense to people listening than i am and i'm veering dangerously close
50:01
to prioritizing feelings over facts but but there's something about megalomania that you're
50:07
missing, I think. It's something about white supremacism and megalomania that trump
50:13
pardon the pun, commercial interests, although you make a strong historical argument
50:17
I just... I just think he really, really wants to see houses on fire in
50:23
Belfast, Lewis, and not because of Mars, or because of Starlink, or because of Tesla
50:28
He may well do, but I don't think he's there to set out a plan or a strategy behind that. I think
50:33
that's more just the theatrics and the drama. No, he's paying other people to do it, isn't he
50:40
He's literally paying other people to foment the violence and call for the pogroms
50:49
Organise them, even. I think it's more organised chaos for a means
50:53
I don't think it's just... Yeah, I mean, I guess it's just an argument then about what the end is
51:00
Is it some sort of apartheid era world? Or is it just a world in which he gets to become even, even richer
51:09
I suppose it could be both. I would continue the conversation on that dichotomy, I suppose
51:14
I just don't buy it anymore. There's no earthly way. Paying way over the odds for Twitter
51:20
I mean, ultimately against his will, but he kind of tried to back out of it
51:25
I don't think it makes money. I presume it still hemorrhages money. He hated what it had become because it was reflecting humanity
51:32
the so-called silent majority which is actually a very noisy minority were being treated correctly
51:40
they were being banned for being racist they were being banned for lying
51:43
they were being banned for supporting violence and spreading hatred that's what civilized societies do
51:50
and he hated it he hates civilized societies because civilized societies treat people equally
51:57
and they try to treat the people that are being discriminated against
52:01
a little better than they've been treated historically until things actually become equal
52:06
Which actually poses a little question for you. Did anybody count the number of hours that passed
52:12
between Kemi Badenot calling for all people to be treated the same by the police
52:16
and Kemi Badenot calling for black boys who are already disproportionately stopped and searched
52:21
compared to white boys to be stopped and searched even more than they are already Did it get into double figures before the same person that called for people to be treated exactly the same by the police called publicly for black boys to be treated differently by than white boys by the police Did she get into double figures on the hours there or was it less
52:40
than 10? James O'Brien on LBC. Waiting for an answer to that question. How many actual hours
52:47
elapsed between Kemi Badenok insisting that all people be treated the same by the British police
52:52
and Kemi Bader not calling for black boys to be stopped and searched even more than they are already
52:57
which is considerably more than white boys. Two-tier policing anybody? It's insane, isn't it
53:03
I bet you have to keep pointing it out. Seven minutes after 11 is the time
53:07
Andy Hughes is in Belfast for LBC. We'll catch up with him before the end of the programme
53:11
And as things stand, I'll also be speaking to the septuagenarian former RAF pilot
53:18
who was part of that flotilla, drawing attention to Israel's atrocities in Gaza
53:25
who got incarcerated for his troubles. That's a septuagenarian former member, over 72-year-old man
53:34
And he'll tell us exactly what happened to him in Israeli custody before the end of play today
53:40
I think we will actually push the rest of the programme, or the rest of this hour
53:44
the next hour of the programme, towards Joe, who rang in. and to the question of what it's like to be in this country in 2026
53:54
when men are going door to door, dragging people out according to their skin colour and setting fire to them
54:02
And listen, I don't mind if you want to turn off the radio
54:06
because I don't know what I'd do in your position. I might not want to think about it
54:13
I might just want to look the other way for now and hope that it all blows over
54:17
Don't go anywhere near Twitter, whatever you do. Rupert Lowe is now threatening to prosecute Robert Jenrick and Sue Ella Braverman
54:24
for allowing people into this country. And that is, I don't know quite what words to use
54:31
to describe the escalating madness of the far right in this country
54:36
But eventually, the best you can hope for is that they'll all eat each other. But I'm not black, I'm not brown
54:43
I mean, I'm fairly high on a hit list for these fascists, of course, but I'm not going to be there as a consequence of my skin colour
54:49
I'm going to be there as a consequence of things which I can control. I could just shut up and sit down now
54:55
I could perhaps invite Nigel Farage on to record a fake version of Desert Island Discs
55:00
as a way of both normalising his hatreds and also pretending that his lies about being banned from it is true
55:08
I could just do that. I could do it now. We could put a call in, you know. We did, of course, issue last week
55:14
an invitation to him after one of my texters who hasn't really been
55:19
paying attention gave us the gave us the idea that somehow we avoid
55:27
a conversation with him we did hear back, I'll play that to you shortly
55:31
but the the reality is that I'm white so it doesn't hit me like it hits you
55:41
does it? I get hit, Joe, and I should have done this sooner
55:45
I'm sorry. I should probably have done it last week. I know that Sheila did, and I didn't
55:50
What's it like to be a Sikh at the moment? What's it like to be a Sikh in this country at the moment
55:57
And I don't have an enormous amount of sympathy for you if you were on an EDL march a couple of years ago
56:02
but what's it like to be a Sikh who thought you were all right because you were on the EDL marches
56:06
and they were all slapping you on the back for being one of the decent ones? That hasn't exactly lasted, has it, lads
56:12
But when you are living in a country where they are going door to door
56:20
asking to get the foreigners out based exclusively on the colour of their skin
56:26
how does it feel to have dark skin? 03456060973 is the number that you need
56:36
I don't see how we can't avoid that question. on the streets of the United Kingdom
56:43
The pure cold rage that Nigel Farage is calling for, has called for and will call for again
56:49
The fighting back that Elon Musk wants against people who are already in jail
56:54
involves masked men going door to door, dragging people out of their own homes
57:02
because they have dark skin. And then setting fire to those homes
57:09
how does it feel to be brown? How does it feel to be black
57:15
0345 606, I can't believe I'm having this conversation. How does it feel to be black
57:26
In the land that Nigel built? In Stephen Yaxley-Lennon's world? In this bizarre universe that has somehow
57:37
since those ridiculous flags started going up everywhere, seen the hatreds, the bigotries and the ignorances
57:43
that are promoted and amplified and celebrated on social media, on Twitter in particular, move into real life
57:51
It's as if the masks have come off, not literally, of course. They're still wearing them in Belfast
57:55
as they throw petrol bombs through the windows of homes inhabited by entirely innocent people
58:04
But... What's it like? Jo did a job of telling us she's not going to stay
58:10
if this direction attracts and I don't want to have this conversation
58:14
but we have to right we have to 03456060973
58:27
because they're all doing it and Kemi Badenok responding to events yesterday
58:32
by calling for I think actually to be fair she called for more black boys to be stopped and searched before the events in Belfast
58:39
where black boys were considerably more likely to be dragged out of their house
58:43
and having it set on fire than anybody else was, or brown boys. I haven't got an answer yet to how many hours passed
58:49
between her calling for everybody to be treated the same by the police and for black boys to be treated
58:54
very, very differently from white boys, or even more differently than they already are. But Joe's call has hit me
59:00
Sometimes I have to get to a break. Sorry if this is boring, you
59:05
sort of what goes on in my mind when i'm live on the radio sometimes i have to get to a break
59:12
and and think back because i'm moving forward all the time thinking forward what we've got to do we've
59:16
got to do this we've got to do that oh we've we've got to play the response from nigel farage about
59:20
my outstanding invitation to him to come and have a chat in the studio oh come on what if we do a fake desert island discs night how about that you could come on and
59:29
pretend that you actually listen to music. No? All right. Well, the offer's open
59:35
The offer's open. And then I take a call like Joe's. And, you know, I had the same conversation not long ago
59:41
with Saeed Avasi, a baroness, former joint chair of the Conservative Party
59:49
someone with whom I disagree on most things politically, but all things socially
59:53
And she told me years ago, two or three years ago, she was worried about the direction of traffic, and
59:59
and that people she knew, I think including herself, were contemplating making their life elsewhere
1:00:07
making their life somewhere else, just like the immigrant Elon Musk did, I think after apartheid ended in South Africa
1:00:15
He's an immigrant. There's a mad thing for you here. Henry Novak's killer is not an immigrant, and Elon Musk is
1:00:21
And Elon Musk is calling for action against immigrants. Elon Musk claimed that Henry Novak was killed by an immigrant
1:00:28
Elon Musk is an immigrant. and Henry Novak's killer isn't. So what's it like to be brown
1:00:36
What's it like to be black? A doctor, leaving the country. After Brexit, it was the white people
1:00:42
It was the white doctors. It was the white lorry drivers. It was people with names like Novak
1:00:48
that had been told they weren't welcome here anymore. Ten years later, it's the brown people
1:00:53
It's the black people. Because it never bloody ends, does it, with the first target
1:00:59
You don't need to be Martin Niemler to understand that. First they came for the Polish lorry drivers
1:01:06
the Romanian neighbours, and I didn't do anything because I wasn't a Polish lorry driver
1:01:10
I wasn't a Romanian neighbour. And then they came for the French psychologists
1:01:16
the German bankers, and I didn't do anything because I wasn't a French psychologist and I wasn't a German banker
1:01:21
And then they came for the Nigerian doctors, or whatever, And then they came for the black Brits
1:01:30
Then they came for the brown British people. And I didn't do anything because I wasn't a brown British person
1:01:38
And then they came for me. And there was nobody left to do anything
1:01:45
In Britain, sorry, in the United Kingdom, in 2026, masked men are going door to door
1:01:53
dragging people into the street because their skin is dark. and then setting fire to their homes
1:01:59
How does it feel in the United Kingdom in 2026 to have the same or similar coloured skin to those poor souls
1:02:12
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 18 minutes after 11 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC
1:02:19
And it's a horrible question that I wish I didn't have to ask
1:02:23
but I do and I am. You woke up this morning, or you went to bed last night
1:02:28
knowing that people were being dragged out of their homes in the United Kingdom in 2026 for the crime of having dark skin
1:02:35
Criminals acting at the behest of politicians in this country who continue to be feted in some studios
1:02:41
and the richest man in the world, whose platform has done more, perhaps
1:02:46
to foment this sort of violence and horror than anything else in our discourse
1:02:51
But it's still the platform that Keir Starmer condemns the violence on. That has got my blood boiling, oddly, because it's an odd thing to..
1:02:58
Anyway. I'm white. They'll come eventually for the lefties. We saw that at Yaxley-Lennon's last march, didn't we
1:03:05
Do you remember? The woman who was removed from the crowd for looking like she'd once read a book
1:03:11
But right now, it's my skin colour. It's skin colour that matters
1:03:16
What's it like to be the same colour as the people whose homes are being set on fire
1:03:20
for the colour of the inhabitants' skin? Samantha Zinniesko instead. Samantha, what would you like to say
1:03:28
Hello, James. Thank you for taking my call today. Just utterly disgusted by what's going on
1:03:38
The level of racism, it's not like it's happened overnight. Of course
1:03:46
You've got the media backings from Musk and, you know, all his friends
1:03:53
Lennox, this was all premeditated and you could feel it in the air
1:04:01
As someone who is married to someone of African heritage, I have kids with this person as well
1:04:12
We are constantly, constantly being treated in an appalling way when we are together as a family
1:04:19
You know, whether it's to anywhere local or even into town, it's absolutely shocking
1:04:28
The hatred that we have faced in the last year, since last summer, it's been very, very intense and shocking
1:04:42
You know, there was a lady in her 50s outside of a well-known establishment who just went for my husband
1:04:55
And she was, she looked like a normal, normal lady. What did she do
1:05:02
She said the C, well, I can't even say it because it's so bad, but she said the C word
1:05:09
Because he's with a white woman or just because he's black? purely because of his skin colour
1:05:15
and she said, you cannot park here and you should not be here
1:05:20
We were at Hampton Court Palace, actually. It was absolutely astonishing. I mean, I'm not being stupid, I hope
1:05:27
He wasn't parking in a disabled slot or anything like that. I know he wasn't. I'm just clarifying
1:05:34
We had to double-check where we had parked and it was perfectly fine where we were
1:05:39
because you second guess and you think, God, that level of hatred, that emotion
1:05:46
it's so strong and just so, you know, it's ugly. How could this have happened
1:05:55
And then we went back to, you know, normality. It took a few seconds and thought
1:06:00
no, this is a you problem, not an us problem. You look absolutely perfectly normal to us
1:06:06
However, you're carrying this hatred around. And we just thought, God, your age, at your age, the fact that you are even spewed in that kind of hate, it must be normal for you
1:06:20
And what are you telling your family members or your friends all around the dinner table
1:06:25
This is a collective thing. You know, you are carrying this around with you day to day
1:06:29
It was a lovely sunny day. How could you even leave the house with so much hatred in your heart
1:06:35
But since then, it's been nothing short of, you know, whether it's to the gym or supermarkets, it's constant is the racial abuse
1:06:48
Towards my husband, we are with our kids, our boys and girls, and we are facing this on a weekly basis
1:06:57
Daily, we are not together. You know, we are working. But it's very scary is what's happening
1:07:04
and, you know, you've got the media that's backing this ideology as well as social media, not just, you know, media in terms of radio and TV
1:07:20
That spares people from shame, I think. That word normalisation is overused a lot but I think often Samantha I so sorry for what your husband what your partner going through and of course what you are going through and God knows what conversations you have to have with your children
1:07:37
and I wish I could tell you that I think it's about to get better, but I don't. I really don't
1:07:42
And it's the... So, what you've got, and a quick word, I think, probably
1:07:46
on the specifics of what is going on in Belfast and the role, not by way of comfort
1:07:53
because Samantha's just described the mecca of middle-class southerners, Hampton Court Palace being a place where you're not safe from racist abuse
1:08:02
But the history of loyalist gangs in Belfast is particular and specific
1:08:09
So a quick word on that from one of my most reliable correspondents
1:08:13
No Hostages. You have to understand it's not just racism, it's loyalist terrorism
1:08:18
The areas most associated with anti-immigrant violence didn't emerge from nowhere. For decades, parts of loyalism have been linked to paramilitary
1:08:26
organisations involved in drug dealing, extortion, intimidation, pogroms and territorial control. So when masked men organise violence and patrol neighbourhoods and intimidate families and drive
1:08:37
people from their homes, many Northern Irish people will recognise patterns that many English
1:08:42
commentators and observers are unable to see. The message to English commentators is
1:08:48
we must do better. This, what we saw last night, is an attempt by loyalist gangs
1:08:53
partly an attempt by loyalist gangs to make themselves relevant again. They could be targeting Catholics, at other times it's Eastern Europeans
1:09:00
Africans, LGBT people, or Muslims. Something else they have in common with Nigel Farage
1:09:05
who has, at various times, gone after all of those groups. I think except Catholics, but give the guy a chance
1:09:10
By treating these riots solely as a reaction to immigration, some commentators launder the reputation of organisations
1:09:16
that have spent decades terrorising working-class communities. So, cop on! And I'll share that whole thread with you now on Blue Sky
1:09:27
which is the social media platform I use, because it is not owned by someone who ferments pogroms
1:09:32
on the streets of our country. Jackson Hackney, Jack, what's it like to be the same colour
1:09:39
as the people whose homes are now being set on fire in the United Kingdom
1:09:43
it's gone beyond concerning and i think the point i just said to your producer was what value is my
1:09:52
citizenship i'm a citizen here i'm from here but my my citizenship feels like it's less you know
1:10:02
this whole idea that i can't walk freely or go places without always looking around my shoulder
1:10:10
I don't like being in certain environments. I don't like people coming up to me
1:10:15
I don't like people coming up to my car. I know that, sadly, there isn't a specific look
1:10:23
It can be anybody, anytime. I've had people come up and say the wildest things to me
1:10:30
You know, I've spoken to you before. I work in education. I've had children, children say to me
1:10:37
what are you going to do with reform getting in? And I can boldly say in front of them, I'm not letting anybody, anybody push me out of anything
1:10:46
But equally, I have to be realistic. I know that back in the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, people in my community did defend themselves
1:10:56
Some of them lost their lives. Some of them were maimed for life with injuries
1:11:02
And some of them spent time in prison. and one thing actually that comes to mind is a few years ago i went on holiday i was um
1:11:11
i was on the african continent and james i cannot begin to tell you how many black british people
1:11:19
i've met and you know you hear a british accent you strike up a conversation and i would say to
1:11:25
them like oh why did you move here and they were like we're sick of racism and we know what's coming
1:11:30
and one woman she she she's like from a similar part of london like we we knew we knew mutual
1:11:37
people and i'm just like wow in the sixth richest country in the world one of the countries that is
1:11:46
said to have you know one of the greatest democracies and all that type of stuff people
1:11:52
like me are moving out we're getting passports for jamaica kenya you know nigeria whatever
1:11:59
country it is and people are making their preparations i know a lot of people that have
1:12:05
kids that are saying the minute their kids hit 18 19 and are set up we're out because we can't
1:12:11
guarantee our safety anymore and and it's i mean it's explicit now in ways that previously it was
1:12:19
implicit you might have feared what you describe and somebody else possibly even a radio presenter
1:12:24
would have described you as playing the race card or exaggerating your worries
1:12:29
But it's explicit now. You know, we will have mass deportations of people who have every right to be here
1:12:36
It has become a rallying cry for people who are in the public space
1:12:40
They're not excluded. They're not by dint of their disgusting conduct and their hideous views
1:12:47
They're not denied the oxygen of publicity. In fact, they're fed it on an unfathomable scale
1:12:53
by the richest man in the world. And, I mean, has it ever been comforting to think they don't mean me
1:13:00
they mean the recent arrivals, they mean the asylum seekers, they mean the refugees
1:13:04
Because what you saw on the streets of Belfast last night was worse than what we saw during the Farage riots last summer
1:13:10
because it was not even going after people they had reason to believe
1:13:15
were recently arrived here, which is, on a scale of 1 to 100, 99% disgusting
1:13:20
but last night was 100% because there was no interest whatsoever in whether you were first, second or 17th generation
1:13:28
black British or brown British or brown Belfast resident. They were going to set fire to your house and drag you out of your own front porch
1:13:35
So was there ever any comfort in thinking, oh, it won't ever be me, however bad it gets
1:13:41
No, for me personally and for many people like me, we at least were raised a certain way or had experiences
1:13:49
where we know you can go and play that whole I'm the good immigrant thing
1:13:54
or I'm the good black or brown person thing. All you want. It will only be a matter of time before it's you
1:14:01
Just like with all of these black and brown people that go and support people like Kemi Badnock
1:14:06
Suella Bravman, the Reform Party and all of that. And what's happened? The Restore Party shows up
1:14:11
and now they're talking about re-migration. Something which we've seen on the continent of Europe
1:14:17
Now it's in Britain. Now it's getting out there. Now it's growing
1:14:21
And bit by bit, it's a bit of a reminder of it's not how good you are
1:14:27
It's not if you play for the England football team. It's not about if you're a professional or if you've got a degree or any of that type of stuff
1:14:35
It's you. Your presence here is the problem. They don't like you being here
1:14:42
And quite frankly, they don't even really like you being alive. They would happily sadly I believe these people would happily wipe large numbers or all of us out of existence if they could get away with it or if they could simply pull it off I don feel that we are in a position where we can really claim that this is purely about immigration anymore
1:15:06
because nobody, including during the Farage riots, nobody's checking paperwork. Nobody's saying, oh, well
1:15:14
your grandfather came over then, so you're all right. It's the new guys
1:15:18
It's, hey, you're black, you're brown. Let's get you. i've got two thoughts i want to make you smile but i don't think i can
1:15:27
because i was going to say hey don't worry cammy badenot's going to make you safer by telling the
1:15:32
police to stop and search more black boys that that one it is it actually shocks me how she is
1:15:41
given like oxygen in polite society i sometimes sit and i think nobody has a problem with this
1:15:47
when she suggests this in the room. Nobody sits and says, hang on
1:15:53
Like, we can't live in reality anymore. It's wild to me that people are so happy
1:16:01
that they can get a little puppet that can say the things that they can't get away with saying
1:16:07
You mean racist old white men. Absolutely delighted to hear what Cammie Bader not has to say
1:16:11
about stopping and searching young black boys. Within 10 minutes of saying that the police have to treat everybody the same
1:16:16
otherwise we're all going to hell in a handcart. a hundred percent and sadly you know you you look and you say all right well are we saying the same
1:16:26
thing in glasgow when white boys stab other white boys are we saying the same thing in like other
1:16:32
parts of the country that have horrific murders violence and crime are we saying that we should
1:16:36
stop out and we should search every working class looking white boy because he might be a part of
1:16:42
football violence or we should stop and search every Catholic coming out of mass because of a
1:16:48
history of pedophilia done by priests no it's the same thing they just found something that they knew
1:16:56
could stick and they've stuck it and it's it's working two knife murderers sentenced last week
1:17:03
one you know about because he killed Henry Novak one you may not because he killed Mohammed Algasim
1:17:09
He was called Chas Corrigan. He was, I think, 22 years old at the time, 21 at the time, and his father was jailed for two years after pleading guilty to assisting an offender after concealing high visibility clothing that his son had been wearing at the time of the attack
1:17:24
it's it's it's shocking to me and one thing that also really concerns me is that although i'm glad
1:17:33
to see for example after the farage rights all of those people like a lot of those people were
1:17:37
arrested and got sent to jail something that sticks in my mind is that a problem we're going
1:17:43
to have is that a lot of racists are in prison so when you stick a bunch of other like low-ranking
1:17:51
racists in prison, they start forming connections. They start meeting people. They start discussing
1:17:57
things. And even for some of them, they'll come out of prison and there'll be a GoFundMe that will
1:18:03
be able to generate hundreds of thousands of pounds or tens of thousands of pounds from people
1:18:09
from God knows where in this world to make sure that they're taken care of. So you can go out and
1:18:14
do all of this crazy violence and hate, and then you can connect up
1:18:20
with some of the major players of these movements. And then what's going to happen when they come out
1:18:25
And Donald Trump has sent a message to the American equivalent of the people you're describing
1:18:30
that they'll get rewarded and pardoned in the event of taking reparations
1:18:36
They'll get reparations for trying to overthrow the government. Black Americans don't get reparations for what happened to them
1:18:41
but they get reparations for trying to hang Mike Pence, as they shouted
1:18:45
Yeah. Right. Thanks, man. I'm sorry you had to make this call
1:18:50
No worries. I'm sorry you could. I'm sorry you could. It's 11.34
1:18:54
Dominic Ellis has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. Eight minutes after 11 is the time
1:19:00
PMQ's on the way today. I mean, it's not funny, is it? You hear a call like Jack's and you hear the..
1:19:06
I mean, I want to argue with people. It's what I do, generally, but I can't argue with people who are telling me
1:19:11
what it's like to be black or brown at the moment in this country. when people are dancing to Elon Musk and Nigel Farage's tunes
1:19:17
and enacting pogroms on our streets. While Stephen Yaxley-Lennon has his trotters up in Moscow
1:19:28
with Elon Musk's father, best known for impregnating his own stepdaughter, twice
1:19:34
Hashtag save our women, hashtag protect our girls. I mean, it is just bonkers, right
1:19:41
But if you're black or brown, I have well I do now have an idea of what it's like but I think I'm probably at fault for not
1:19:52
asking a little bit sooner. Selina's in Petersfield. Selina what would you like to say
1:19:56
Hi thank you for having me on the show. I wanted to just say my experience. I run the first black
1:20:04
children's magazine in this country called Coca Girl and it went completely viral during lockdown
1:20:09
and I did it because my daughter was getting just horrifically bullied at school
1:20:14
And when I launched, it was everywhere. But what I found was that one newspaper, I will not say who they are
1:20:24
did a horrific story on me and said that my magazine was not good for this country
1:20:31
and I got so much death threats. They even put a picture of my daughter up on this newspaper
1:20:37
I then had to move to the country to safety so that I can continue to publish my magazine, Coco Girl
1:20:44
What did they object to, Selena? They didn't like the fact that I was celebrating my daughter
1:20:50
and other girls that have never seen themselves on a front cover before. We're actually in the Children's V&A Museum because..
1:20:56
But they didn't write that. So what did they sort of accuse you of, as it were
1:21:00
They said it's divisive. They use that word all the time. And it's going to divide the country
1:21:06
But believe it or not, there were more white people buying that magazine than, you know, some black people
1:21:14
And the reason being is because you had grandparents that had black, you know, or mixed race grandchildren
1:21:20
So a bit about their own heritage. And the culture. Yeah. And so when this newspaper did this story on me and I got death threats, literally, I went to the country to, you know, basically take my children out of the public eye
1:21:35
and then I got more racism and this was face-to-face racism oh yeah it was shocking and
1:21:43
I got people when I moved into a certain area people were moving out and um one of the neighbors
1:21:51
that I had she came and knocked on my door and to introduce herself she pulled because I had hair
1:21:58
extensions at the time she pulled my hair extensions she looked me up and down and said
1:22:03
you could hang yourself with that hair. And I didn't want to respond in the way that I might normally respond
1:22:10
So I knocked on the door later on. I said, let's have a cup of tea
1:22:15
And I bought her my magazines, which I use to educate people with, with my culture
1:22:21
They're beautiful magazines. And we sat down and we talked about why she can say that and what we gone through throughout the years when it comes to our lovely beautiful Afro hair So she hadn meant any harm by it
1:22:35
Well, she... I know that sounds like an odd thing to say, but she was essentially saying it looks like rope
1:22:41
She was basically, yeah, trying to, I think... I mean, she wanted to have a cup of tea with you, is what I'm saying, and she wasn't frightened of you or wishing you harm
1:22:50
She's just done, what is, I mean, a microaggression or... Yes, that's what I will call it
1:22:55
Yeah, same. And what I had to do was, instead of being what she probably thought I might be
1:23:00
in terms of get angry, you know, the term angry black woman, I decided to take a different approach and educate her
1:23:07
Now, it's not my job to educate people, but I... It kind of is. I mean, I'm sorry, I'm not arguing with you, Salina
1:23:14
But your magazine, I mean, you've given yourself that job by dint of launching this wonderful magazine
1:23:20
Yeah. In a way, in a way. It's celebrating children that don't often see themselves
1:23:26
So it is an educational magazine. However, it was also for children to affirm them
1:23:32
who don't often see themselves in the public eye. I mean, our brand changed the landscape of publishing
1:23:38
I got the highest award in publishing last year from the BSME Awards
1:23:42
I changed the game. I changed the way that people, you know
1:23:47
highlighted black people within the magazine industry. And I'm very proud of that to this day
1:23:52
However, with this lady, we're friends because I took a different approach
1:23:58
Now, this is another thing I wanted to say as well. I've had my tires slashed
1:24:02
I drive a nice car. I've parked up, you know, in the country, in the supermarket
1:24:08
Someone's seen my car, slashed my tires. When police have arrested him, he said
1:24:12
that black woman shouldn't be driving a car better than me. This is what we go through
1:24:17
When I open my door every day, I don't know what I'm going to get
1:24:22
I'm probably going to be followed around the supermarket every time I walk into a supermarket
1:24:27
It's happened to me before, and that's gone viral. But do you know my approach is
1:24:32
I am never going to let anybody else's opinions of me affect who I am
1:24:37
I am going to continue to love. I'm going to continue to say hello to people
1:24:42
And right now I've moved to another area. And do you know what happens in this area
1:24:46
There's a little girl who was 10 years old that doesn't look like me. and every day she knocks on my door to see if I'm okay
1:24:54
Yesterday she bought me a cupcake. The other day she bought her granddad
1:24:57
The other day she bought all the children in the neighbourhood. I've given them all ice lollies
1:25:01
And this is what our little neighbourhood, which I've just moved to in the country
1:25:06
one little girl is a little beacon. I won't say her name for face-guarding reasons
1:25:11
And if everybody could be like this little girl, how this world would be so different
1:25:16
I don't live in this country upset, downtrodden what I try and do is make a difference
1:25:24
and now my magazine has a reach of 2.1 million children why
1:25:29
because Pearson's Education picked it up and they used this magazine as a tool
1:25:33
to teach, to live together to be in unity with one another
1:25:37
and this is what we've got to try and do yesterday broke my heart what I saw
1:25:43
but I am not scared I will never be scared. I will never move
1:25:48
I will make sure that whatever I'm doing, I can help others and I can teach others
1:25:53
and I can be a beacon where I am. There is a saying
1:25:57
brighten the corner where you are. And that's what we have to do more of
1:26:03
And I'm trying not to cry. I really am. Well, brighten the corner where you are
1:26:07
We can all take away from this conversation and from you and anybody
1:26:11
who wants to find out more about Salinas magazine, which is even more important now than it was when she founded it
1:26:19
can find it online very easily, Coco Girl. And there it is, bright in the corner where you are
1:26:25
It's all any of us can ever do. But at the moment, most of the microphones are being handed to
1:26:31
and the loud hailers and the fake Desert Island Discs programmes are being handed to the people who want to make everything darker
1:26:38
In fact, they love darkness, unless it's on someone's skin. James O'Brien on LBC
1:26:44
It's 11.49. One of those days where I've been so busy either talking or taking calls
1:26:50
I haven't had time for many texts. Let's just rectify that briefly. Martin speaks for many of you and he writes
1:26:55
Supporting Palestinians makes you a terrorist, but committing racial pogroms makes you a hero
1:27:02
Richard disagreed with an earlier caller, offering a commercial reason for Elon Musk's enthusiasm
1:27:07
for the sort of scenes we saw in Belfast last night, saying there is a game being played out in front of us and a plan
1:27:13
and people are being sucked into it. Musk, Putin and Farage are all the best of friends
1:27:19
Claire writes, my French family witnessed this and spoke of this. Your caller is 100% right
1:27:24
If we don't call it out for what it is, fascism, and educate people in a shocking way, Farage will win
1:27:29
My love to Joe, who inspired the second hour of the programme today, I sympathise 100% have black family who are painfully aware
1:27:37
of the aggression behind many of the St. George's flags. And Neil writes, I live in Belfast
1:27:42
My workshops are right besides where the trouble happened last night. I've told all my staff to go home and we've been told to leave by 11am
1:27:50
11.50 is the time. They want more violence. Who's they? You know who they are
1:27:57
A report from the BBC in Northern Ireland. And we'll catch up with our own man, Andy Hughes, who's there at 12.45
1:28:04
They set bins on fire and shouted foreigners out. Last night on the lower Newtownards Road in Belfast
1:28:11
Hundreds of masked men walked down the street carrying bottles, bricks and masonry
1:28:16
displaying, I would suggest to you, pure cold rage of precisely the type that some people have been itching to see
1:28:22
Pure cold rage. They set bins on fire and shouted foreigners out
1:28:27
As they walked street to street, they were banging on doors, kicking them down and breaking windows
1:28:33
Masked men set cars alight and at one point I witnessed them trying to burn a car
1:28:37
until a woman came out of her home and told them it belonged to a local and not a foreigner
1:28:43
And they stopped. A young family had to be moved from their home by police
1:28:50
As witnessed. Those scenes of a young family fleeing their home in the United Kingdom in 2026
1:29:00
A local councillor called Paul Doherty, independent councillor from West Belfast, has been supporting that family
1:29:07
describing them and their four children as traumatised. Homes were attacked, businesses targeted, livelihoods lost
1:29:13
and many innocent families terrorised last night because of the colour of their skin or where they come from
1:29:21
And we are living in a country where some of the most amplified voices want this
1:29:28
I cannot say this often or boldly enough. They want it. They have called for it
1:29:33
They dream of it. they celebrate it up to and including the man who owns Twitter X
1:29:41
call it whatever you want 11.52 is the time Haller is in Acton
1:29:47
Haller what would you like to say? Hi Hi Jane Sorry I was a bit late joining today
1:29:53
but my mum's already written a note so it's only 20 it's it it it
1:30:00
I don't know if you remember me speaking to you before but I'm actually of Sudanese origin
1:30:05
Of course I do. I'm Sudanese. Some of the calls I had yesterday, messages from people who I know through work, who know I am of Sudanese origin
1:30:15
were kind of a bit laced with weird stuff. You know, how do you feel about this, you know, incident
1:30:22
How do you feel about this incident? because this is my countryman who committed the crime in this heinous crime in Belfast
1:30:31
So it's just the same. It's weird. I never got messages like that last week when Chaz Corrigan got jailed for stabbing someone to death
1:30:41
Yes, exactly. And the same thing happens, you know, when something happens, you know, Islam related
1:30:47
You know, I'm black. I'm an Arab. I'm Muslim. You know, like sometimes I call myself a triple threat, but I don't like to use that
1:30:56
But I feel like that's what I am representing now in this country
1:31:00
The reason I called is because you're talking about how how we feel right now
1:31:04
And I just feel a sense of betrayal because when I came here in the 80s, this is not what I signed up for
1:31:11
So it's almost there was an unwritten contract. I came here. I studied. I worked. I did my part
1:31:16
And I kind of expected, you know, for me to have made this my home
1:31:21
There are lots of things I would expect in return. And the first thing is my right to exist here and be here and work and raise a family
1:31:32
Right. So now I'm seeing these hostilities. I'm seeing them locally. I'm seeing them on my screen
1:31:39
I'm seeing them happening to my teenage daughters at school. I'm seeing them because most of their, you know, we have a certain level of activism
1:31:50
So if you know us, you'll know we are Sudanese. Okay. Although my husband is not
1:31:54
And now it's just rearing ugly head after ugly head. And even with my parents, you know, we all proudly wear Sudanese pins and go on marches and so on
1:32:06
And it's just becoming, it's almost like it's becoming something that we need to be throwing back from, which we don't want to do
1:32:15
You mean winding your neck in, as it were. Yeah. But the worst part for me, the girls are 13 and 15
1:32:23
And to be honest with you, James, in the last few years, this is the only environment that they've got to know
1:32:31
So at least, you know, when I was here, I was able to. So I have to go back to say to them, back in my day, you know, and I don't want to do that
1:32:40
I don't want them to live in an environment where they are, you know, they feel like they have to kind of be silenced a little bit
1:32:49
They can't take, they took a Sudanese flag out once somewhere. I won't mention where
1:32:55
And they were kind of, you know, attacked and, you know, there was hostility towards them
1:33:01
mainly because most people thought it was the Palestinian flag. But even then, that's not really the point
1:33:08
And they just feel they are kind of withdrawing a little bit from a lot of the stuff that we have actively and openly and proudly done before
1:33:16
So to go back to my initial point, I just feel there is a sense of betrayal that's happened to every single person who has come here stuck
1:33:27
You know, we have stuck to our part of this unwritten contract that we've had with this country
1:33:31
and now this country has reduced us to the people who pop up on us
1:33:37
Yeah, I hear you. And of course, in some cases, I don't think people of Sudanese heritage
1:33:43
but in many, many cases, people of colour come from countries that we arrived in
1:33:48
and colonised and told everybody there that they were British now and therefore they could enjoy all the benefits of being British
1:33:56
That, of course, is why the far right is so hideously and violently opposed
1:34:00
to children or even adults being taught history. It's why Satnam Sangheira's books are so powerful
1:34:05
We spoke yesterday to... I've forgotten... Was it Paul in Selby, the actor
1:34:10
who'd been in, I think, a production of Small Island? I think it's in Small Island
1:34:15
that one of the main characters comes to this country after his brother was killed in the Second World War
1:34:21
I think, working as a pilot, and he presumed that that would mean that he arrived here
1:34:26
not quite to a hero's welcome, but to a hero's brother's welcome
1:34:31
And, of course, the reality was incredibly different. I'm sorry to hear what you tell me, Hala
1:34:36
I really am. And I am just collecting experiences today. I can't really offer any comfort
1:34:42
Quite the opposite, because they'll be calling for more of what we've seen overnight if they haven't already
1:34:48
Stay safe. Derek's in Belfast. Derek, what would you like to say? Hello, I'm a first-time caller
1:34:54
Hello, Derek. So please excuse the nerves. It's only me. 59 years of age, black British, lives in Northern Ireland, and it's not good at the minute
1:35:11
It's 96% or 97% white, I think, Northern Ireland at the moment
1:35:16
Yep, yep. It's not good. I mean, I've lived here for 20-some odd years
1:35:22
and I've got to say this is the first time in 20
1:35:27
some odd years I feel you know it's very hard to put into words what's
1:35:33
going on, what happened absolutely disgraceful, disgusting absolutely disgusting what happened with the young man
1:35:41
and everything else that's the bit that I mean it needs saying
1:35:45
and we can't say it often enough but literally nobody disagrees with that, the only point
1:35:49
of contention here is between people who welcome the scenes that we saw
1:35:53
near the Shankill Road and people who are disgusted by, everybody is disgusted by the footage that went viral yesterday
1:36:01
But I just feel at the minute it's race. It's a race issue now at the minute
1:36:07
It's nothing to do with you know, what happened. It's a race issue. It's nothing to do with immigration
1:36:13
because the previous examples of provocations have been built upon crimes committed by people who weren't immigrants
1:36:21
So their forebears were, their parents or their grandparents, just like Farage's children have an immigrant parent
1:36:27
But, of course, it's never them that are on the receiving end. Are you from... I mean, what..
1:36:31
Have you... I don't want to ask you this, but I think I have to, and you did ring in, so you probably knew I would
1:36:37
Have you thought about your own front door? Yes and no. I live in the countryside
1:36:45
OK. It's predominantly in towns. Yeah, that's where it is. Yes, of course
1:36:52
You know, I'm more concerned for my wife, who happens to be white
1:36:57
I'm born here. It's making her very nervous, you know, when me out and about, you know
1:37:06
please get home safe, please do this. You know, I'm not being blasé or anything
1:37:12
I've lived through the 70s and the 80s in London and the 90s in London
1:37:17
And so that kind of grounds you into what's happening around you, if you know what I mean
1:37:23
with like the sus law and this law that they brought up when we were young kids and Yeah So you kind of keep yourself aware you know but you shouldn really have to
1:37:35
My young son, he's 25, he lives here as well. You know, I'm more concerned about them than I'm concerned about myself
1:37:44
I don't know if that's a silly way of thinking. I don't know either
1:37:48
I'm certainly not going to give you any lectures on what you should and shouldn't be feeling
1:37:52
but also you're a husband and a dad and we're raised that way
1:37:56
You feel automatically, first and foremost, you're worried about yours, not you
1:38:02
You're worried about your loved ones more than you're worried about yourself. But I wish we lived in a place
1:38:07
where nobody had to be worried about any of you. I really do. Derek, stay safe
1:38:12
Back in Belfast, it's being reported that the victim of the attack that we are discussing
1:38:16
has Stephen Ogilvie, is the man's name, has lost his left eye
1:38:22
So another hideous postscript to an already hideous story. But quite how anybody comes away from a moment like this thinking we've got to punish completely innocent people
1:38:33
remains a little less beyond me than it was at 10 o'clock
1:38:38
It's Wednesday. It's 12 o'clock. Natasha Clark is here because PMQs is imminent
1:38:44
Yes, James. And I'm sure this tragic case is going to come up at PMQs
1:38:47
I'm sure the Prime Minister is speaking about it right now. They usually do these things at the very top of PMQs
1:38:51
before they get into the questions. I'm sure we'll be paying tribute to that. Poor man that suffered those horrific injuries in Belfast
1:38:58
and obviously the trouble that we saw overnight. I'm sure that will be the subject of some of those questions
1:39:04
Other things that could come up. Obviously, we are just a couple of weeks away
1:39:08
from a very crucial by-election. I'm sure that Keir Starmer will be wanting to mention..
1:39:13
It's one week, isn't it? It's a week tomorrow. Yes, but we will have PMQs next week before then
1:39:17
So I imagine he'll want to talk up all of the things that his government is doing
1:39:21
including some of the social media announcements that they've been making this week
1:39:26
about banning the nudification elements of certain apps to try and keep kids safe online
1:39:32
I wonder if Kemi Bajanot might press the Prime Minister on when that defence and investment spending plan is due
1:39:38
because we've been hearing rumbles about it for weeks. I spoke to him when I saw him last Friday in Swindon and spoke to him about this
1:39:45
So doing a bit of the pitch rolling for this extra spending on defence. And I'm sure Kemi Bader will want to ask, when's it coming, Prime Minister, and is this going to be enough
1:39:54
Indeedy. I asked you last week whether or not there was any prospect of normal questions about normal policies coming up
1:40:00
Defence, I guess, gets filed under that. I mean, she never ceases to surprise
1:40:05
I can't quite see how Kemi Bedanoch makes political capital about a crime apparently committed by somebody who arrived in this country under a Tory government
1:40:16
I can't see how she makes an immigration point about it. But she might try anyway
1:40:20
She might try anyway and might just say this was the wrong decision and are we in control of our Home Office making these decisions
1:40:25
And she could also use it to have a go at the now two people that were at the forefront of the Home Office that are now, of course, in the Reform Party
1:40:33
that's Robert Jenrick and Suela Bravman, who have potentially been involved in some of this policy at the time
1:40:38
that this man made his way from Paris, we understand it, to Dublin and then on to Belfast
1:40:44
So there are obviously questions about it, but it does feel like it's a lot of finger-pointing there
1:40:49
about sort of what went wrong. And I was at a press conference with Reform earlier today
1:40:53
and Richard Tice obviously got questioning about that. This is, you know, your guys, they were making these decisions
1:41:00
What did he say? He just said, this is the Home Office's problem and they're the ones that are not enforcing their own policies correctly
1:41:05
But his key people were there. Exactly, doesn't blame his key people. And it's a red herring, of course
1:41:11
I mean, you might as well talk about stopping births in order to make sure there are no crimes
1:41:16
But it is a red herring that does them damage rather than good
1:41:21
which is what normally happens. It is that time of week, so we will cross live to the House of Commons
1:41:26
as soon as the leader of the opposition, Kemi Bedanot, gets to her feet. Did you keep count of the number of hours that elapsed between her saying that the police have to treat everybody the same and saying that black boys need to be stopped and searched more than white boys
1:41:38
So the first question, the first point was when? I don't know. Oh, okay, so you don't know the hour
1:41:42
Well, no, I'm hoping someone else has counted. How many hours, minutes
1:41:47
Was it in the same speech? No, I don't think it was quite, even by her standards, that would be remarkable, wouldn't it
1:41:52
Yeah. If it was in the same speech. Anything else? Anything else that we might expect
1:41:56
Well, look, we had a bit of a coming together. What about Blue Sky? Oh, she's not going to ask him about Twitter, is she
1:42:00
Probably not. She's on it. But, hey, Davey might. Someone bloody has to
1:42:05
I mean, it's getting ridiculous now. For sure. Well, let's find out, Natasha. Can I also wish England and Scotland the very best in the World Cup
1:42:13
Can I wish you a very happy birthday, Mr Speaker? Many happy returns
1:42:18
And may I take the opportunity to associate myself with the remarks
1:42:22
that the Prime Minister made about the helicopter crash. our condolences to their family and of course to the family of Michael Storey as well. Can I also
1:42:33
thank him for his short statement on Belfast? The scenes in Belfast are deeply, deeply disturbing
1:42:41
A man is in hospital after a brutal attack and now families are frightened after a night of
1:42:48
violence. There is a life criminal case so we must be careful about what we say but we can be clear
1:42:55
about this. People have a right to be angry. I am angry. And people have the right to expect
1:43:01
their politicians to secure our borders. But no one has a right to burn families out of their homes
1:43:09
or to burn public property and attack the police. We all have a duty to stand up for public safety
1:43:15
in every way. Mr. Speaker, last night, America carried out strikes on Iran in response to the
1:43:23
downing of a US helicopter. This comes just days after renewed attacks on Ukraine. The world is
1:43:30
getting more dangerous and the British public want to know this government is doing everything it can
1:43:35
to protect our national security. So can the Prime Minister tell the House, will the full
1:43:41
defence investment plan finally be published this week? Prime Minister. Mr Speaker, can I
1:43:49
agree with her that in relation to both Iran and Ukraine, we're facing a more volatile world than at any time during our lifetimes
1:43:58
Mr Speaker, so far as defence is concerned, we've already taken a number of measures
1:44:04
We've increased defence spending from 2.3% to 2.6% in 2027. That's spending £270 billion over this parliament
1:44:14
We've carried out a strategic review of defence and were committed to publishing the Defence Investment Plan
1:44:21
before the NATO summit, which is in just a few weeks' time. That sounded like a no, Mr Speaker
1:44:29
We have wasted two years waiting for the Defence Investment Plan. Projects have been put on hold
1:44:36
and Britain is getting weaker with every passing day. It has been reported that the Chief of the Defence Staff
1:44:44
told the Prime Minister that the Ministry of Defence needs an extra £28 billion
1:44:50
Will that requirement be met in full? Mr Speaker we set out the Defence Investment Plan It is the first It a defence It a 10 plan and it the first line review of defence budgets in 18 years
1:45:05
She's wrong to say it's been delayed by two years, Mr Speaker. The Defence Strategic Review was published a year ago
1:45:11
We've been working through the details to make sure that we get this right. We are the government
1:45:16
There's an increased defence spending from 2.3% to 2.6%. I remind the party opposite
1:45:22
when they came into power, defence spending was 2.5%, and they took it down to 2.3%
1:45:29
We've taken it up to 2.6%. By 2027, the defence investment plan will be published before NATO
1:45:39
We've already signed 1,400 major defence contracts. 94% of those, Mr Speaker, are with British businesses
1:45:46
And as the defence secretary said, that includes helicopters made in Yeovil
1:45:50
drones in Swindland, armoured vehicles in Telford. And we've also given our armed forces the biggest pay rise in over 20 years
1:45:58
That's Labour making investment to safeguard our national security. Mr Speaker, can I welcome the pay rise for the armed forces
1:46:07
But the Prime Minister says he's increased defence spending. He's not. This year he's cutting it by £3.5 billion
1:46:15
What he's talking about is hopeful increases, which we don't know if he will do because there is still no defence investment plan
1:46:25
At a time that we need leadership, Mr Speaker, we have total paralysis
1:46:30
It is reported that the Chancellor is only willing to find £13 billion for the dip
1:46:36
At the London Defence Conference last year, the Prime Minister said defence would be the central organising principle of his government
1:46:44
How can that be the case when he's giving the armed forces less than half of the minimum that they need
1:46:53
Mr Speaker, we've already increased defence spend. We will spend £270 billion in this parliament
1:46:59
What did they do on spend? They took it from 2.5% and they cut it to 2.3%
1:47:06
And we'll take no lectures from there. They sat at the heart of a government that failed our armed services
1:47:12
They cut frigates and destroyers by 25%. They cut mine hunters by 50%
1:47:22
They cut the army from 100,000 down to 72,000. They missed army recruitment targets every single year for 14 years
1:47:32
And they left morale in the armed forces at an all-time low. So we'll take no lectures from them on defence and security of our country
1:47:39
Mr Speaker, we've heard him say this about a hundred times. There is still no defence investment plan
1:47:49
He is the Prime Minister now, at least I think he is. Should I be calling Andy Burnham instead to ask these questions
1:47:55
He is the Prime Minister and the reason that he's dithering is because he doesn't know where the money is coming from
1:48:02
The military is waiting, the bond markets are watching. He has only three options, cutting spending, more borrowing or higher taxes
1:48:11
We know that the Chancellor wants to put up tax to pay for it
1:48:15
Will the Prime Minister rule out raising taxes? Mr Speaker, she asked the House to simply ignore the last 14 years under the House
1:48:24
We may have failed the armed forces, hollowed them out, but please just forget all that and act as if it didn't happen
1:48:33
Well, you can't forget all that, given the damage they did to our armed services
1:48:38
Mr Speaker, she says forget all that. I remind the House, when they left office, 47 out of 49 major defence contracts were delayed or over budget
1:48:49
That is what we are fixing. You can't just scrub away and forget
1:48:54
I know they want to forget the last 14 years in power. So do the British public
1:48:58
That's why they're sitting over there. But Mr Speaker, we've increased defence spending
1:49:02
We are going to publish the Vence Investment Plan and that will be done before the NATO summit coming up in just a few weeks time
1:49:11
Mr. Speaker, I remember when the last government led Europe when we were fighting the war in Ukraine, when Russia invaded, we were ready
1:49:20
We supplied Ukraine with munitions. We increased defence spending. We increased defence spending, but I wasn't asking him about our record
1:49:28
I asked him if he would rule out tax rises. He did not rule out raising tax rises, so tax rises are coming
1:49:37
He can't borrow more because the markets have no confidence in him
1:49:41
The reason the Prime Minister is in this mess is because he maxed out on spending in his first two budgets
1:49:48
That's why the benefits bill is set to rise to over £200 billion by the end of the decade
1:49:56
He has things the wrong way around, Mr Speaker. He has a benefits plan until 2031, but no defence investment plan
1:50:04
Why not just cut welfare? Mr Speaker, she talks of leading the way on Ukraine
1:50:10
and I did pay tribute and do to what the last government did on Ukraine
1:50:14
and we stood with them. We continue to lead the way because it's the United Kingdom and France
1:50:20
that are leading the coalition of willing, that have got the military plans together for security guarantees in Ukraine
1:50:27
Equally in Iran, Mr Speaker, it is the UK government and the French government
1:50:31
that have put together the coalition for the reassurance military plans as soon as the Strait of Pormos is open
1:50:37
That is what we're doing to lead. But, Mr Speaker, we are not going to take lectures
1:50:42
on defence from the party opposite after what they did to the armed forces
1:50:47
and nor are we going to take lectures on the economy, which they crashed and we've had to pick up
1:50:52
Get me bed and off. Come on. Mr. Speaker, at a time of increased global instability and tension, war in Europe and the Middle East, he is paralyzed, giving the armed forces less than half of the minimum that they need
1:51:07
Tony Blair says cut welfare for defense. Lord Robertson, former NATO secretary general, he's one of them, says cut welfare for defense
1:51:15
We all know why he won't cut welfare. It's because he is too weak, too weak to make a decision, too weak to face down
1:51:24
his backbenchers and cut benefits too weak to stand up for our
1:51:28
national security. As the sun sets on his premiership, he is scrabbling around for a
1:51:35
legacy. But isn't it the case, Mr Speaker, that the real legacy
1:51:38
will be a bloated welfare state and a weaker armed forces? Mr Speaker
1:51:47
when they were in office, they didn't reform welfare or invest in our armed services
1:51:53
So the very choice she puts up Defence spending went down, welfare spending went up
1:52:00
£88 billion overall on their watch, £33 billion under the shadow Chancellor
1:52:05
So, Mr Speaker, they did neither welfare reform, nor did they spend our own forces
1:52:11
And every week she reminds us why the British public sent them packing, because she ignores what we're turning the country around
1:52:18
Growth is up. She doesn't want to talk about that. Interest rates are down. She doesn't want to talk about that
1:52:23
immigration is down after she cheerleaded for it to go up and the NHS waiting lists have coming down for fastest rate for 17 years I going to keep fighting for the people who elected a Labour government and sent us here two years ago
1:52:36
People who want to live in a safer world. Parents who want to have a better future for their children and young people growing up in poverty who deserve a better future
1:52:45
We're investing in this great nation, standing up against those that divide us, a stronger, fairer Britain
1:52:54
There will be a taxi, and it might be for somebody who didn't request it
1:53:00
Richard Birkin. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'd like to associate myself with the Prime Minister's comments on the horrific events in Belfast
1:53:09
The co-founder of US tech giant Palantir once claimed the NHS makes people sick
1:53:18
But now Palantir is running the NHS's new data platform. The Financial Times has reported that Palantir staff have had unlimited access to identifiable NHS patient data
1:53:35
And also there's deep concerns about Palantir's human rights record in relation to Trump and ICE and Israel's military action in Gaza
1:53:45
NHS patient data shouldn't be left in the hands of a US tech giant
1:53:51
The government has an opportunity, Mr Speaker, to end this contract through a break clause next year
1:53:56
Will the government take that opportunity and kick Palantir next year out of our NHS
1:54:02
Mr Speaker, as the Health Secretary has said, the existing contract will be reviewed, as it always is, ahead of the break clause
1:54:11
And data security is always a priority. On the single patient contract, there will be strong cyber security protections and we will protect this data
1:54:20
like we do with all health data. We've focused on modernising NHS
1:54:24
so patients don't have to repeat themselves and get the care they need more quickly
1:54:29
Our investment has cut NHS waiting lists, delivered millions of extra appointments
1:54:34
improved A&E and ambulance response time. I'm proud of what we're doing. Sir Ed David, Leader of the Liberal Democrat
1:54:42
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I join the Prime Minister in sending our condolences
1:54:46
to the families of those killed in last week's helicopter crash? And can I associate myself with the Prime Minister's remarks about the horrific knife attack in Belfast
1:54:55
Our thoughts are with the victim and his family. And can I join the Prime Minister in condemning the disorder last night
1:55:02
But, Speaker, in Carers Week, can I celebrate the millions of family carers who make huge sacrifices to look after their loved ones
1:55:10
And can I look forward to an England versus Scotland World Cup final
1:55:14
and can I wish you a happy birthday Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, as the chaos over the Defence Investment Plan goes on
1:55:27
I'm sure members on all sides were shocked to read yesterday's reports that the government is considering slashing the hospital programme to fund the shortfall
1:55:37
Surely in 21st century Britain, people can expect both a decent local hospital
1:55:43
and armed forces that keep them safe. So will the Prime Minister rule out any cuts to the NHS budget to fund defence
1:55:54
Mr Speaker, can I first agree with him about the amazing work of our carers
1:56:01
We will take the necessary measures to defend our country, the first duty of any Prime Minister
1:56:07
We will also take the measures, as we have done, to invest in our public services
1:56:11
and forgive me, I was running a public service when the government and his party were part of
1:56:16
were stripping them bare under austerity so we're really not going to take lectures
1:56:19
on austerity from the gentleman opposite. Well I was hoping we were going to hear more about defence investment
1:56:25
I would urge the Prime Minister to look at our plans for defence bonds to get £20,000,000 into defence
1:56:32
But Mr Speaker, turning to those horrific scenes in Belfast too many times we see the same pattern
1:56:39
an appalling crime that makes us all feel immense pain and anger
1:56:45
and then extremists who exploit that grief and anger to spread hatred and violence
1:56:51
aided and abetted by social media barons like Elon Musk and their divisive algorithms
1:57:00
Does the Prime Minister agree this is not who we are as a country
1:57:04
and that it is not free speech if it's controlled by tech billionaires and their algorithms
1:57:12
So will he crack down properly on platforms like X that are fuelling violence and hatred
1:57:18
Prime Minister. Mr Speaker, we will crack down on anyone who's fuelling this division
1:57:25
But it is really important, and I agree with him, we're heading into a very difficult situation in Northern Ireland
1:57:32
As I say, I've spoken to the Chief Constable, the First Minister, Deputy First Minister this morning
1:57:36
they are united in saying we should all be calling for calm
1:57:41
The police are on the front line and it's our duty as politicians to call for that calm
1:57:46
and nobody who's a politician should be whipping up division and hatred
1:57:51
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Flexible and co-working spaces play an important role
1:57:56
in regenerating town centres like mine in Rochester and Stroot. 20 minutes after 12 is the time
1:58:02
I'm back with Natasha Clarke shortly to pick over the bones of what you just heard
1:58:06
James O'Brien on LBC 22 minutes after 12 before we get stuck into that
1:58:14
just something you said earlier struck me and I didn't pick up on it at the time
1:58:19
why is Richard Tice holding press conferences and not Nigel Farage? I don't think I need to tell you the answer to this one do you
1:58:24
I don't know because I suggested to you the other day that he was hiding and you were adamant that he wasn't
1:58:28
I suggested about six months ago that he was hiding and I did look into the data
1:58:33
and I concluded that I didn't think he was hiding six months ago. But as Rowena Mason, one of my lobby colleagues
1:58:38
kindly pointed out today, to Richard Tyson at the press conference, it's been 50 days since Nigel Farage
1:58:43
has done a single press conference. And many people think that that is because he's hiding from those questions
1:58:48
about the £5 million donation. Do you think you're allowed to talk to him at the moment on air
1:58:52
without promising that you won't ask about the secret £5 million? I can't think of anyone who has recently
1:58:57
but would that be, do you think, a precursor to doing anything in a studio
1:59:01
To be honest with you, I want to doubt that that is the case. So do I. I want to doubt that that is the case
1:59:06
Because I don't think that that should be a term of preconditions for any political interview
1:59:11
Oh, you can't ask about this. You can't ask about this. And I don't think that that should be the case
1:59:15
But one has to wonder. But yes, we didn't hear. Ian says, I'm a bit behind, James
1:59:20
I'm listening on Catch Up. But I've heard that Nigel Farage has just been awarded the Desert Island Discs Peace Prize
1:59:25
What is he doing? How is he now? Congratulations to everybody involved. But yes, Richard Tice was the one fronting questions about what we
1:59:32
I was very baffled by this morning. The issue of the day, what do you think it is for reform to be talking about
1:59:37
Do you think it's the trouble? Someone being mean to Sarah Poachin
1:59:40
She was there, but unfortunately didn't say anything, so I don't know whether anyone's been mean to her
1:59:45
Is it Ghostbusters 2? Ghostbusters 2. Good response, but sadly not. Flight tipping
1:59:51
A whole press conference for an entire hour about flight tipping. A very serious issue, and I know one that lots of people take seriously
1:59:56
And it won't let me do it as a topic. Flight tipping and bus routes are the two things
1:59:59
that I'm fascinated by, so to be fair, maybe I'd have fitted in for it. Do you want me to tell Richard Tice that you'll go on flight even with him
2:00:05
No, please don't. Well, I'll have to go instead. Last time he tried to make friends with me, it didn't end well
2:00:10
It didn't? Let's leave that in the... Sounds like a story for later. Anyway, you can read it, I think. It appeared somewhere online
2:00:17
Speaking of online, a few of you have asked about the article I said I'd written for a newspaper earlier
2:00:21
and it's not nice to tell you I wrote an article that I filed at 3 o'clock yesterday for the i-newspaper
2:00:26
they've used a byline picture that is approximately 150 years old despite the fact that i did an
2:00:32
entire photo shoot with them on monday in pursuit of a new picture they clearly didn't like any of
2:00:35
them but i filed it at three o'clock and by six o'clock on the streets of belfast it was all
2:00:39
coming true but a couple of people have asked what paper it's in so it is in the eye where i appear
2:00:43
in the august company of the likes of simon marks who'll be with you at four o'clock and um
2:00:49
and the and ian dunn and ian birrell and others that was quite dull i mean when's your defense
2:00:56
plan coming, it is coming but I can't tell you when, is your defame, Tessica? It is but
2:01:00
I can't and also you did that thing and when, is that it really
2:01:04
That's a really good summary. Well done, we don't need to talk any further. But actually
2:01:09
a few interesting revelations at the end of that exchange I thought, James, when I spoke
2:01:13
to the Prime Minister last week in Swindon about the idea of the defence investment plan
2:01:17
there was already rumours starting to surface that we'd been hearing that cuts were on the
2:01:22
cards in order to pay for this extra defence spending and that has really sent ripples through
2:01:27
Westminster and it's really worried a lot of MPs where is this money going to come from and obviously
2:01:32
the Chancellor has said repeatedly she doesn't want to go back to an age of austerity and she
2:01:37
doesn't want to do cuts but now you just heard from Sir Keir Starmer repeatedly when he's asked
2:01:41
are you going to rule out cuts to the NHS are you going to make cuts to other departments he can't
2:01:47
definitely say that that's not the case which is really going to worry some of his own MPs that say
2:01:51
you spent two years telling us that you will not be returning to austerity, borrowing lots more, taxing lots more
2:01:56
and now you're looking potentially at cuts to pay for defence. Is that the right question
2:02:01
And there's been reports over the weekend about where those cuts might fall. It might fall in the energy and net zero department
2:02:06
It might fall in the transport department. There's been lots of commentary about why it's not falling in the welfare department as well
2:02:13
Keir Starmer told me this is going to be fully, fully costed and fully funded. It's toxic, isn't it, politically, because the public aren't that bothered
2:02:19
the public are going to be a lot more interested in spending on, certainly on health, than defence
2:02:25
Defence doesn't ping much, does it, when people are asked to list the things they care about the most
2:02:30
And yet we are being told now, repeatedly and regularly, by people who really know what they're talking about
2:02:36
that we're more vulnerable than we've ever been since the end of the Cold War. Yeah, and the government, I don't think, James, are just making this argument enough to people
2:02:43
I don't think they're making it well enough. And actually, you're right about what you say about it being a public issue
2:02:48
I was looking at the YouGov tracker on this on the weekend, specifically on the issue of defence
2:02:52
It has gone up in the past sort of two or three years since Ukraine, since Iran, since the world has got arguably more dangerous
2:03:00
But it's still something like, I think, 22 percent, I think, tops of people think that defence is the most pressing issue facing Britain today
2:03:08
So it's going to be really tricky for the Prime Minister to come out and say, I've got to make cuts to these departments in order to pay for it
2:03:15
but that is exactly what we expect him to do, potentially, as early as later this week
2:03:19
And so, I think, to Ed Davey, I don't think there's a great deal else to say
2:03:23
about the defence element of that conversation that you haven't covered perfectly
2:03:28
But I am struck by the fact that Ed Davey is still on Twitter, or X
2:03:33
as I think we're supposed to call it these days. Yes, so, I think a fascinating debate, actually, there
2:03:37
You know, about Elon Musk, about his influence in politics. Even Keir Starmer, you know
2:03:42
has repeatedly accused the tech billionaire of stirring up hatred online. And he's obviously had an announcement earlier today
2:03:49
about that notification, sorry, earlier this week about notification apps and doing more to crack down on tech companies
2:03:55
But he is still on X and so is Ed Davey, both still on these social media platforms
2:04:00
Wes Streeting as well had an answer to this when he was speaking to Lewis Goodall for an issue of the newsagents last week
2:04:06
And he just said, I don't think, I don't believe in retreating from the pitch. I don't think that we should get off it
2:04:10
But it is a question. For every politician now, if you really want to be on this platform
2:04:15
which is filled with hatred and conspiracy theories, crypto billionaire scams, there's a lot of filth on there
2:04:22
And politicians are now having to defend themselves. How can you, on one hand, criticise it so much
2:04:28
and on the other, you're still not willing to take yourself off that platform? Yeah, I mean, I tried to have that debate
2:04:33
Was it last week or earlier this week? And it worked up to a point. But the problem is, of course, is that everybody's welcome on this programme
2:04:39
I mean, including people who are on Twitter still quite a lot and don't see any of the toxicity that typifies the experience
2:04:46
for anyone who's remotely associated with public life. So it's weird. You can tell that
2:04:51
Does Cammie Bader not? Because there was a period when people claimed she spent most of her time playing Candy Crush
2:04:56
Yes, there was a period. But now she's on Twitter all the time. I wouldn't say she's on Twitter more than other politicians
2:05:01
I don't know. I don't know exactly how she spends her time. Judging by the things she thinks matter. Interesting
2:05:05
I think she is on Twitter. I don't know how much she is on Twitter, more or less
2:05:09
Are there any politicians, because Jess Asato was on the show last week, she's suing Grok for fake sexualised images
2:05:16
Yeah, and a couple of MPs have, and you've seen more migrate over to Blue Sky, as you did, and I'm sure others do
2:05:22
What about Threads? What's Threads like? Do we know? I'm not on Threads, so I don't know. I don't want to download yet another app
2:05:28
No, I don't. I'd rather just stick to it. Speaking of things you downloaded, I had to double check this was true, because I don't think it was posted on Blue Sky, but it is
2:05:36
Due to ongoing unrest in Belfast and threats of further unrest this afternoon and evening
2:05:41
the Northern Ireland War Memorial has made the difficult decision to cancel our Belfast Learning Festival events
2:05:48
scheduled for Wednesday the 10th of June and Thursday the 11th of June
2:05:51
So, there you go, the pure cold rage that we're seeing on the streets of Belfast at the moment
2:05:56
causing the cancellation of War Memorial events. Well, that's sickening, isn't it
2:06:02
It's beyond sickening, but sadly, utterly, utterly unsurprising. And there will be other voluntary groups in the area that are, in fact, there's one here
2:06:11
Gaming CIC, which is a community organisation having to close its venue today with reports of more planned protests or indeed outpourings of pure cold rage or pogroms, however you prefer to describe these things
2:06:26
and the loyalist groups responsible for the violence last night, presumably and probably, but not definitively and provenly
2:06:34
are now ordering businesses across Northern Ireland to shut, to close at 11 o'clock
2:06:41
That's freedom of speech for you. That's freedom of assembly. You've got the people responsible for last night's violence
2:06:47
now ordering businesses to close. We'll have to wait and see, and indeed hope
2:06:53
that they don't get what they want again. 12.31 is the time
2:06:57
Matt Hewitt has your headlines James O'Brien on LBC 12.34 is the time
2:07:04
you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC where we cross live now to our crime correspondent Andy Hughes
2:07:11
who has made his way to East Belfast this afternoon where as you'll know a bus
2:07:16
well as you probably know a bus was set to light yesterday evening we'll also ask him I think about
2:07:22
fears and or expectations of further violence These aren protests by the way Journalists have vocabularies that are limited There only so many nouns and verbs we can use to describe things that are going on
2:07:35
I don't know what they are. Pogroms is the word I'd go for, but they're not protests
2:07:41
They are, however, violent. And Andy can see some of the consequences of last night's violence
2:07:46
Andy, what have you found? Yeah, well, I can confirm it was not a protest in anyone's recovery
2:07:53
this was a riot last night. Let's just show you some of the evidence. This is one of the streets where a lot of the chaos was going on
2:08:01
As you can see, just car after car after car, window after window after window
2:08:07
these have been set alight, and they were set alight by an angry mob. And here, this is a totally different place
2:08:15
We were here last night, and there were hundreds and hundreds of young men and boys
2:08:21
and older men dressed all in black, all wearing balaclavas. And they were here, and they were here to cause violence
2:08:30
The people who were living here were absolutely horrified. And they were all here, they said, because 24 hours previously
2:08:38
a local man who we are now calling Stephen Ogilive, he was stabbed in a horrendous attack, and that attack was utterly brutal
2:08:47
We've now found out that he's lost his left eye, and he also suffered serious injuries to his neck and his back
2:08:57
James, I wanted to gauge what some of the locals were thinking about
2:09:04
what descended on their neighbourhood, and a lot of them weren't happy
2:09:09
Here's one young man I spoke to. The likes of politicians using the working class to incite their own hatred
2:09:16
and basically scapegoat immigrants as murderers. What does this gain? You said politicians. What politicians are you talking about
2:09:25
Well, the likes of, you see them in England, the likes of Rupert Lowe, Farage, obviously
2:09:30
He's Nigel Farage, yeah. Here, I would say it would be unionist politicians
2:09:35
basically joining the bandwagon in scapegoating immigrants for issues that are caused by people in government
2:09:42
So this very articulate young man, he was blaming politicians, not only in Northern Ireland, but in fact in the UK
2:09:52
He name-checked Nigel Farage, leader of Reform, and Rupert Lowe, leader of Restore
2:09:58
He said that they were mobilising young, angry men who were waiting for an excuse to commit violence
2:10:04
And as you can see, they certainly did that. It sounds quite organised, unless I've misunderstood you
2:10:11
that they were all dressed similarly and all wearing balaclavas. I mean, that speaks not of something uniquely thrown up
2:10:19
by the events of the last 24 hours, but of links with Northern Ireland's longer history
2:10:26
It's been suggested to me this morning that loyalist groups will have been using this as an opportunity
2:10:31
to pursue increased relevance. yeah this is a loyalist area that we're in and i saw some of the messages that were being pumped
2:10:42
out on social media before the protest and they asked all people who were attending to dress all
2:10:49
in black right and cover their faces and wear hoods why because if they all dress the same it
2:10:54
makes it impossible for the police to identify them very interestingly uh james i obviously came
2:11:01
here last night expecting this place to be surrounded by police when i got here i couldn't
2:11:07
find one police officer i had to walk 300 yards up the road to actually see a police officer and i
2:11:13
spoke to um a contact nisa well this is going to be their tactic for this they do not want to raise
2:11:19
tensions by steaming in they did steam in though when the firebombs started going through the
2:11:24
windows you can see here the consequences of that all police riot vans they raced up this
2:11:31
road and they knew better than to get out the police vans but the mob just turned on the police
2:11:36
vans they started smashing up the windscreens they started tearing off the wing mirrors and
2:11:41
then minutes later the vans had to retreat um and abort their mission so even the police couldn't
2:11:49
get anywhere near this they were just completely overrun by all the rioters um this has got nothing
2:11:57
to do, really, in one sense, with what happened to Stephen Ogilvie, because it is, if you like
2:12:03
a tinderbox waiting for a spark that you're describing, Andy. Yeah, it was nearly certain that there was going to be trouble tonight. The big question
2:12:14
is, is that going to continue? As I say, it's a very different place here today. This was
2:12:19
just totally overrun with protesters. We have seen some leaflets in the same style
2:12:26
that were pumped out yesterday calling for more trouble. So I'll be here tonight seeing if there is any
2:12:33
One thing is for sure, the locals here certainly seem to be pointing the finger at certain politicians
2:12:40
Yes, and is there any indication yet of whether the police are expecting these calls
2:12:45
for more violence to be realised, to be acted on? They just don't know. Ironically, as we speak, a police car has just driven into the street
2:12:55
That's the first police car I've seen in a long time. But now it's because the police now feel safe to come into this area
2:13:03
They certainly didn't last night. Here we are. So no doubt they'll be starting their investigations into what is clearly several arson attacks
2:13:13
And finally, Andy, do we have any idea where the people who were living in those homes this time yesterday are now
2:13:18
no we don't and it's still unclear if this was even targeted it's being claimed online by some
2:13:25
that these were targeted however i witnessed one thing last night where a young group of men they
2:13:30
were trying to flip a car um and then a an older elderly gentleman came out and said please no
2:13:38
and a thick northern irish accent saying please no that's my car and then they just stopped what
2:13:43
they were doing and then apologized said ever so sorry and they were apologizing proficiently and
2:13:48
then they moved on to the next car uh andy i'm sure that we will be hearing more from you in the course
2:13:54
of the day and indeed the evening although i hope just because i'm a human being who cares about
2:13:59
other human beings that you won't be reporting on further violence or any repetition of the events
2:14:05
and the scenes that we saw last night andy hughes their life from east belfast um our crime
2:14:11
correspondent and also of course the co-host with Neil Basu of the Crime Agents podcast
2:14:17
Here's an interesting, I've got a couple of interesting texts for you. We have Malcolm
2:14:22
Ducker waiting on the other side of the next break. Malcolm is the father of the young lady
2:14:27
we spoke to while he was in Israeli custody after being part of the peace flotilla that set sail to
2:14:34
draw attention to how Israel is treating Palestinians and ended up drawing attention to how Israel
2:14:40
treated people like malcolm ducker he was one of the people held as itamar ben kavir marched around
2:14:47
the um custody suite sort of not quite singing but celebrating and um uh celebrating the brutalization of uh um well in malcolm case a 72 year RAF well a 72 RAF veteran So we meet him shortly but before that just a couple of texts
2:15:07
This is interesting from Jim in Lincoln. I wouldn't always bother reading these out, but this one's pertinent, I think
2:15:14
You're overt loathing for this country and the colonial guilt you clearly carry around and wear like a badge of honour is simply nauseating
2:15:22
Jim, that's called knowledge, mate. I feel absolutely no guilt whatsoever about what was done by people from this country long before I was born in this country
2:15:34
Why would I? It's a ridiculous feeling. What you feel is shame at your ignorance
2:15:40
And the fact that when I pointed out the racists don't want people to be taught about the colonial history of this country
2:15:46
it's precisely because it would make a complete mockery of the racism that they feel towards people who come from the countries that we colonized
2:15:54
people who were told, hey, you're British now, and poor souls believed it
2:16:00
So what you're articulating there is both your own shame and your own ignorance
2:16:04
and your own knowledge that I was right. That you don't want people to be taught about our colonial history
2:16:10
precisely because it makes a mockery of modern racism. But just in case you're worried about me, mate
2:16:15
I feel, why would I feel guilt about what was done 100 years ago
2:16:19
Anywhere. Happy to clear that up. And I quite liked this one as well
2:16:25
Well, I like this one a lot. I know you can't do it today
2:16:29
but would you do a piece on what the rest of us can do if they see someone being abused
2:16:33
in the way that your callers have described? It would help us to know what to do
2:16:39
to stop this cancer spreading. That is an interesting question. I like the posters on the tube
2:16:43
telling people what to do if they see someone being harassed. Sheila did a great show yesterday
2:16:48
about this new law enacted now for the first time about men harassing women in the case that she cited on public transport
2:16:56
But I've struggled a bit with the campaign. I love the idea behind it, but I'm not quite sure what advice I'm actually being given
2:17:03
So, yes, that is a very, very good idea that we will perhaps turn our attention to at some point
2:17:08
And this from David saying, I don't want both sides of the story, James
2:17:13
I just want the facts and the truth and not the racist propaganda. I want your station to stop celebrating barely hidden racism
2:17:22
I suppose I'm not here to defend it, but I need to hear what other voices are saying
2:17:29
in order to marshal your responses. And I'm afraid that some of the voices I think you're alluding to
2:17:35
the barely hidden racism, are the voices that prompted some of the violence that we've seen on the streets of this country everywhere
2:17:41
from Southport last summer to Southampton last week to Belfast last night. So I don't know that it's necessarily the correct course to call for them to be completely silenced
2:17:51
It's 12.45. James O'Brien on LBC. 12.48. One of the things we've done on the programme recently to prompt one of the biggest responses we've seen recently
2:18:02
was a conversation I had last month on the 21st of May with Claire Azugar
2:18:06
whose father Malcolm at the time was being held by the Israeli regime
2:18:11
after he set sail and became part of the global summit flotilla
2:18:17
We talked about it because of the footage that went viral after Itamar Bengavir, the security minister
2:18:23
treated British and many other countries as well. But of course, our primary interest was in British captives abominably
2:18:32
We saw hands tied behind backs and a sort of celebration. And of course, the question that was raised was
2:18:38
if they treat British people like this in public on camera, what the hell are they doing to Palestinian people in secret off camera
2:18:46
Here's a little reminder of what Claire told us about her father Malcolm's experiences and indeed motivation
2:18:54
First of all, he's a sailor and he wants to be useful and he wants to help and he wants to try and create a better world
2:18:59
for his grandchildren, for all the children of the world. He can't stand seeing the annihilation of the Palestinian people
2:19:06
their continued suffering and starvation. and he felt that flotilla was a best way of trying to reach them
2:19:11
but also to get media attention, to get the world's attention onto their plight
2:19:16
which I have to say has worked, because now everyone's talking about it. She's very proud of you, Malcolm
2:19:22
Claire? Yeah, she is. Sorry, it makes me quite emotional. Of course it does, I understand
2:19:27
To hear it. I understand. I always get emotional when people are kind
2:19:31
Yes. When they get violent, I don't get emotional, I get angry
2:19:37
Probably a healthy palate, I think, of responses that in the great scheme of things
2:19:42
Well, it's probably going to get emotional and angry in the course of the next 10 minutes
2:19:47
but shall we begin with the moment that the flotilla was intercepted
2:19:51
and the boat you were on was boarded by Israeli forces? What was that like
2:19:56
Yes, well, we were anticipating it because a number of boats had been boarded before, early on in the day
2:20:07
And it was approaching dark when we were intercepted. We saw the rib leaving the prison ship and approaching us
2:20:21
So we were prepared and we had all our phones and electronic devices
2:20:29
and anything that could give anything away to the IDF, ready to ditch any offensive
2:20:40
what could be considered offensive weapons, like kitchen knives and things like that
2:20:46
We didn't want them to find them on board. So all of that was ditched on their way
2:20:54
Because people have been killed in these circumstances before. on sort of... Indeed, yes
2:21:00
Spurious ground. Yes. So you get rid of the knife so they can't claim
2:21:04
that they were frightened at the knife moment. Yes, exactly, exactly. And we were trained to de-escalate any situation
2:21:14
So basically as soon as they came alongside with their rib, I think there were probably something like 12 soldiers on board
2:21:25
armed soldiers oh yes absolutely uh and they were pointing their uh laser gun sights at us
2:21:32
um uh throughout the the boarding and i was told uh as i was on the helm of the boat to
2:21:41
steer a certain course um and the rest of the crew were told to uh put their hands on the heads
2:21:49
and moved to the front of the boat. And then the soldiers actually got on the boat
2:21:56
when they realised that they were safe. And then they started to damage the boat
2:22:06
through the remote camera over the side and the Starlink antenna was damaged and thrown over the side
2:22:17
and then they took they asked the crew one at a time to come to
2:22:24
the middle of the boat This was in international waters where they have no jurisdiction Oh absolutely This was at least 300 miles from the shores of Gaza
2:22:38
and I estimated at the time it was about 90 miles to 100 miles
2:22:46
from the nearest coast, which was the Cypriot coast. So yes, well in international waters
2:22:55
So it was clearly an act of piracy, there's no doubt about that. And they then, I'm just conscious of the time, I don't really want to hurry you
2:23:03
but then they get you onto the prison ship. Yes, basically they get us onto the prison ship
2:23:10
having searched us and asked us to remove most of our clothing
2:23:18
Really? We're just left with one piece of clothing. You're underpinned. Well, sorry, no
2:23:24
The T-shirt. It would be underpants and a pair of trousers and a top
2:23:29
This was quite cold by then, of course. We were then taken onto the rib, taken to the prison ship
2:23:35
and once on the prison ship searched again, more clothing was taken off us
2:23:43
My particular, I had a Palestine T-shirt on, that was removed, and I was allowed to have another piece of clothing
2:23:50
and then hands were tied and we were marched head down into the prison yard
2:24:02
which basically consisted of a number of shipping containers and an area of deck
2:24:10
which was basically the prison yard and kept there for, as it turned out for me, two and a half days
2:24:17
for some people, it was three days before we actually got to Ashdod in northern Israel
2:24:25
What happened when you got there, Malcolm? So when we got to Ashdod
2:24:33
we were, again, hands were bound and we were taken to a sort of tented area
2:24:43
and heads bowed, kneeled. we had to kneel down, head to the concrete floor
2:24:50
How did they give that order? How was that articulated? Oh, it was just that we were pulled to the area by our hands, by our tied hands
2:25:01
and then just said, kneel, heads down. And we stayed there for, varied in time, it was difficult to tell
2:25:12
but maybe half an hour to an hour, when we were pulled up again, still heads down because they didn't want us to look at anything
2:25:22
or it was a humiliation thing, I'm not exactly sure exactly what it was for
2:25:28
And then we went into the processing area where there were basically administrators who would ask us various questions
2:25:35
try and get us to sign forms to say that we had entered Israeli territory illegally
2:25:44
which was of course a complete joke and I'm sure we all made the point that hang on a minute you brought us here
2:25:54
we didn't come here of our own volition you kidnapped us and they were always trying to get us to sign various forms
2:26:05
to agree, but none of us signed anything as far as I'm aware. Did you witness
2:26:14
actually I won't ask that yet, I'd ask you just to continue what went on. I know that Claire was worried about
2:26:19
you, that you'd be in pain. You were photographed, I think, in slightly
2:26:25
humiliating circumstances. Yes, I mean one of the things that I have missed out
2:26:30
which I thought was important, because it happened to me on the last flotilla as
2:26:34
well, when they were searching you, they would find your medication. And I actually made the
2:26:41
point, I said, I do need that. And they said, yeah, but you're not having this. And they threw
2:26:47
it away. And they said, but we'll get you some, we'll get you some new stuff. And I
2:26:53
I, well, I didn't understand that. But I mean, last time they didn't get me any
2:27:00
and I knew they wouldn't get me any this time either and as far as I know they didn't
2:27:05
I think you asked them at one point why they were doing what they were doing to you
2:27:09
Well, yes. That was when I was being marched around once we'd gone to the prison
2:27:14
because after the processing, which was at Ashdod, we were taken to a prison in the south
2:27:23
Ketiot prison. And, yeah, there they started to get quite... violent with us and um i was then uh forced to take all my clothes off and i was photographed
2:27:40
naked um it was pure humiliation that's what it was all about and one of the things one of the uh
2:27:50
most humiliating things was they got us to kneel down and in a line
2:28:00
and we would, the person behind you would grab your top and the person behind him would grab his top and so on
2:28:10
and I guess about 12 of us would then be paraded around the prison complex
2:28:17
while we were being photographed and videoed and we were constantly being photographed
2:28:22
I don't think there was a single moment when we weren't photographed or videoed
2:28:29
Presumably this was for Ben Gavir's election campaigning. Were you there when Ben Gavir arrived to do a lap of honour
2:28:41
No, I didn't witness that. I think that was probably earlier than..
2:28:49
I mean, if this is going on, if this is happening to British citizens and French and German and Irish citizens, it does rather make one wonder what's happening to other prisoners, most notably Palestinian prisoners, away from the public gaze in places that perhaps we'll never find out about
2:29:10
Absolutely. Absolutely. It actually, it served a purpose for me. It made me realize what the
2:29:20
Palestinians were going through. I mean, what I went through was nothing compared with what they
2:29:27
go through, and they go through it continuously. You know, they're prisoners. They've got 9,000
2:29:32
prisoners, Palestinian prisoners, 400 of which are children. And they are subject to all sorts
2:29:41
of horrific violence. And I have to say, I'd like to say this about a particular member
2:29:51
of my crew who was a New Zealander, and he was very badly treated. He was beaten, he
2:29:59
He was tasered twice. He woke up unconscious on the floor. And when I saw him much later, as we were being deported
2:30:12
he looked like a broken man. And he was a very, very strong man
2:30:16
and a very valuable member of my crew. So I was really, really upset about that
2:30:24
There have been accusations, allegations of sexual assault by some members of the floor as well
2:30:29
Yes, I mean, mine, you know, me being photographed naked, you could consider that some kind of sexual assault in a way
2:30:40
But yes, there were very serious allegations of sexual assault. Will you do it again, Malcolm
2:30:49
I feel I have to. Why? I would consider it... I would have to discuss it with my family obviously But yeah it necessary Nothing going to change until we change the government mind
2:31:10
or the government itself it is so complicit in it's given Israel
2:31:17
a blank check do what you like and that's the way it is
2:31:26
Final question How long were you in the RAF? Eight years. Thank you
2:31:32
Malcolm Ducker, as you heard, part of the Global Summit flotilla, which was captured, kidnapped
2:31:40
I don't know what word you prefer, by the Israeli Defence Force and subjected to some of the privations
2:31:45
that you've just heard described. We did contact the Foreign Office and indeed the Israeli Prison Service
2:31:50
but are yet to receive a response. Malcolm, thank you so much. It's my pleasure
2:31:54
It's two minutes after one. Apologies to Sheila Fogarty for how late I am. I'll skip the rubric and hand straight over
2:32:01
Thank you very much indeed
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