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Following the latest attack attempt in Washington DC, Shelagh Fogarty asks whether Trump is a cause of today’s toxic political climate or simply a symptom of deeper problems in society. 00:00 | Shelagh’s introduction 08:12 | Caller Matt wonders if media should stop amplifying Trump 15:26 | Caller Peter thinks Trump is symptom, not cause of today's violence 17:00 | Caller Joshua says MAGA damaged political discourse Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #shelaghfogarty #politics #donaldtrump #trump #uspolitics #debate #iran #netanyahu #iranwar #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
In his so-called manifesto, the man who tried to attack the president talked about no longer being able to stomach what he was witnessing in American politics, essentially
0:09
Now, I want to make it really clear in asking whether Donald Trump and other members of his cabinet have contributed to this atmosphere of violence and some actions of violence
0:20
I am not suggesting for a second that they are not victims of violence because Donald Trump has, of course, been a victim of violence
0:29
and I wouldn't want to see a hair on his head damaged
0:33
in an act of assassination or anything like that or his wife or any of his colleagues, anybody in that room
0:39
But this is what the manifesto said. It was long, but this is part of it
0:45
I am no longer willing to permit a paedophile rapist and traitor to coat my hands with his crimes
0:52
That's the part that Nora read out. I was no longer willing a long time ago
0:58
but this is the first real opportunity I've had to do something about it
1:02
So that's revealing that he'd been thinking about killing him for some time
1:08
While I'm discussing this, I'll also go over my expected rules of engagement
1:14
probably in a terrible format, but I'm not military, so too bad
1:18
So he started to outline what he intended to do. So now we know what he intended to do because we've seen the events of Saturday night
1:24
and I was just looking through the history really of political violence in America
1:31
I mean it goes way way back. It's not new. I'm not suggesting for a second that Donald Trump is responsible for some new sort of incarnation of politics in America
1:42
It's haunted American politics. It stalked American politics almost from its very beginning
1:47
But if you look at recent events and I'm not just focusing on Donald Trump or the Republicans being responsible for this atmosphere
1:54
either. I think a politician using judicious language is just always wise, isn't it? You can
2:05
use blunt language and you can use sharp language and you can use just plain language to get your
2:12
point across. But the idea that you can then just start to pump up that atmosphere of violence
2:21
and antipathy, I think is dangerous. I really do. I mean, possibly because I broadcast every day and
2:28
sometimes people try to take me down that road and I resist it because it's dangerous
2:33
It also doesn't get us anywhere in a conversation. But look at this. In America, you've had the
2:39
Capitol riots. That was an attempted coup, in my view. You might see it differently, but I think it
2:44
was clearly violent and it was an attempted coup. You've got, and again, these are just listed as
2:49
as they are ice agents uh killed two citizens in broad daylight we saw it renee good alex pretty
2:57
um in a political switch around you've had charlie kirk's assassination um these are all abominations i don't care which side is doing the killing
3:07
or the ranting they're all abominations charlie kirk assassination brian thompson the united
3:12
healthcare ceo um who was murdered in cold blood on the streets and a man called luigi
3:18
Mangione is on trial for that. Nancy Pelosi's husband was beaten to a pulp with a hammer in
3:23
his own home by somebody who didn't like Nancy Pelosi's politics. This weekend was the third
3:29
attempt on Donald Trump. Before that, you had Steve Scalise, Representative Steve Scalise
3:34
surviving a shooting in 2017. I mean, again, plenty of examples of political violence predate
3:43
Donald Trump. So I'm not saying he is the singular cause for this. I'm not. But when
3:49
how could I? It would just be clearly not true. But even as recently as March of this year
3:54
on the war in Iran, we just keep bumming our little hearts out, he says
4:01
gleefully. You never know with Iran because we negotiate with them and then we always have to
4:07
blow them up uh pete hegseth another he was under threat at the weekend in that attack um or that
4:15
attempted attack pete hegseth squirmed in pleasure we saw it we reported on it we heard it together
4:20
here on the program uh in early march uh describing death and destruction from the sky all day long
4:27
with a grin on his face uh this was never meant to be this is still hegseth this was never meant
4:32
to be a fair fight it's not a fair fight we're punching them while they're down which is exactly
4:37
how it should be. These aren't judicious comments by politicians. And Donald Trump
4:43
just the last one on what he said, again, in relation to the war in Iran. They've been killing innocent people all over the world for 47 years. He's right. And now I
4:52
as the 47th president of the United States, I'm killing them. He's right. He did. What a great
4:58
honor it is to do that, he said. Again, just the crudity of it, the crudity of the language
5:04
attached to the killing. It's clear that they call it dyphemism. So you use a euphemism when
5:12
you want it. And Lord knows American politicians over the years and presidents over the years have
5:16
used euphemism to describe some of their more aggressive acts around the world. Donald Trump
5:24
doesn't bother. He just goes straight for its opposite, dyphemism. It just violates social norms
5:31
and taboos and which is what Donald Trump has always tried to do. So is he part of the cause
5:38
Is he part of the problem when it comes to violence? And again, nobody should be physically
5:44
harmed or hurt or certainly killed for their political views or even their political actions
5:51
you know he in this manifesto this guy went on to say administration officials are targets
6:01
prioritized from the highest ranking to the lowest this is his manifesto plan as he's as
6:06
he set it out secret service uh men and women are targets and one of them was shot thankfully not
6:13
killed hotel security not targets if at all possible possible unless they shoot at me capital police same as hotel security National guard same as hotel security Hotel employees not targets at all
6:29
Guests, not targets at all. In order to minimise casualties, I will also be using buckshot rather than slugs
6:36
Less penetration through walls. I mean, the thought that's gone into this manifesto of killing
6:43
of political killing, is appalling. Appalling. I would still go through most everyone here to get to the targets if it were absolutely necessary
6:53
And there you have it. He's a, you know, he's a maniac
6:57
Prepared to kill every row of what, probably two, two, two and a half thousand people in that room to get to
7:04
I mean, he wouldn't have had the time to do that, but that was his plan. He'd go to any lengths in that room to get to Trump and the other people at the top table
7:13
which included in those top tables just in front of the main podium included several pregnant women
7:20
so he didn't care he just wanted to kill them all so there's a polling please don't mistake my
7:25
question for thinking any of this is justified and i'm not saying that the atmosphere of political
7:34
violence is only contributed to by donald trump it isn't it isn't i mean look at the charlie kirk
7:39
assassination just beyond belief um the nancy pelosi attack beyond belief but where's this
7:48
all going to take us where's it all going to take us donald trump he's about to have again we'll
7:55
talk about it more a little later he's about to have important meetings and tea and whatever with
8:01
our king is he a cause of the political violence that he at the weekend and others
8:10
were on the receiving end of i just was um wondering if it's time that we just stopped
8:16
reporting and listening to this uh you know these obnoxious rantings from mr trump um
8:23
it's becoming, you know, it becomes more and more diverse. Yeah, diverse
8:29
It's just not, it's now not the time to sort of want to turn on your radio anymore
8:36
because all we hear is this awful stuff that's coming from him
8:40
and the rhetoric that we hear within our own country as well
8:44
If we just all turned off, and I appreciate you were far, far more qualified to answer this
8:52
than my opinion. No, no, I'm not. I'm not, Matt. Your opinion matters just as much as my opinion
8:59
Well, no, I'm just thinking that, you know, you'll know whether actually it makes a difference
9:02
if we report it or not. I just, I get to a point where I just don't want
9:06
to turn the radio on anymore. I just don't want to listen to it. And I'm getting to a point also where I'm getting
9:12
sort of addicted to social media and following, you know, these dreadful rantings
9:19
Well, there's a lot in there that you've said. Matt please don't turn your radio off for a start well I would say that wouldn't I don't turn your
9:26
radio off um you know don't stop listening to radio because certainly I can't speak for anybody else
9:32
but I certainly try to make sure that the conversations we have about the events in the
9:36
world and in our own country are constructive and useful and that we can you know have a fair and
9:43
decent exchange about them and I hope I achieve that um as for social media I know what you mean
9:49
matt about thinking oh what's happening now what's happening now what's happening now i was away at
9:53
the weekend with friends and i checked the news at sunday morning just quickly and obviously it was
9:58
this and then for a good hour or two even over breakfast it's all we were talking about then
10:03
and i'm the only journalist amongst the three of us that were there and you know it's so easy for
10:07
it to become the background narrative of our days isn't it yeah and and that that becomes dubious
10:15
because, you know, you might pop down the pub and just mention it to somebody
10:19
that you're not particularly friends with, you know, just another local. And they might have a different opinion
10:27
And then it becomes, you know, I don't mind debate and I don't mind conversation
10:32
and I'm quite, you know, happy to listen to everybody's views. But then it becomes divisive and then it becomes unpleasant
10:40
But it only becomes, but Matt, it only becomes divisive and unpleasant if people can't accept that other people see the world differently to them then then so it can so
10:52
easily become divisive but if if you're a grown-up and i'm sure you are and and you're able to say to
10:58
somebody i don't see it that way can should we just enjoy our lunch and agree that i don't see
11:03
it that way and and there are people who can't do that matt or won't do that no no absolutely but
11:10
But what they are is they're led by the people that can't do that as well
11:14
I mean, I listened to the discussions, I think it was with CBS that the president had
11:21
and the lady reporter, apologies, didn't know her name, was reading out the manifesto
11:29
or whatever it was called. So-called manifesto. Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, she stated some things that were written down by somebody else, allegedly
11:39
etc etc and he then told everybody how bad a person she and the press were
11:47
and you know it's misogyny and it's just just nasty because he hasn't got an answer
11:54
you know but people pick up on that and they think well actually
11:59
perhaps he should be speaking like that perhaps it is right to be able
12:04
to criticise people for just having an opinion but you can criticize somebody i wouldn't have any problem if i was being interviewed and somebody
12:13
asked me a question that i thought was an outrage i wouldn't say you're a disgrace you're a terrible
12:19
person i'd just say can i explain to you why i think that question goes beyond the pale and then
12:24
i'd say why you don't need to be aggressive to somebody to draw a line and say don't go any
12:29
further with this no i i think that's because um yourself and and i'd like to include myself in this
12:36
are reasoned individuals. But what we are is we getting spoken to and spoken at by unreasoned individuals And that why I wondering if it time just to not listen I think often I don want to give him too much credit
12:51
just because I can't say for sure whether I'm right here, but I do think, I do wonder what we might think is unreasoned is a strategy on his part
13:01
Oh, absolutely, yeah. Therefore reason, do you know what I mean? It is reasoned
13:05
Yeah, I mean, yeah, we're seeing that with individuals from this country. I mean, I don't think we need to mention those names
13:11
But, you know, they're following the same bandwagon. Sorry, jumping on the same bandwagon
13:17
I was mixing my metaphors. And are you worried that, I mean, God, we've seen political violence in this country
13:23
We've had two MPs murdered in the course of their day in the last, what, five, six years
13:29
A bit more than that. You know, and we know that MPs, there's a new extra supportive unit in the Met to support MPs
13:38
because of the level of threat that's constantly sent their way you know clearly politics has become
13:44
less polite in this country that's for sure are you worried we're going in the same direction
13:48
i think we're possibly going in the same direction but i don't think we're going to get there we have
13:56
a you know we're a very different people um we we don't have access to the levels of um
14:05
guns etc that they have in the United States we don't have
14:09
it's not acceptable to be carrying a firearm it's not acceptable to have
14:16
a far right or far left views etc when I say not acceptable
14:21
I mean if they're unpleasant You mean extremist rather than left and right
14:27
Yes yes unfortunately we're all falling for that aren't we calling everybody far right and far left
14:32
there's only a small middle ground but you can be hard right and hard left and still be
14:39
perfectly law abiding citizen that's what I'm saying, I'm saying we're falling for this narrative where people are saying
14:45
you're hard right just because you might have a small conservative or capital C conservative
14:51
opinion which is just ludicrous clearly but no I think it's no I think we're okay
14:59
I think we're okay, I think we're a reason people and we're a democracy. I think we're mostly a reason people
15:05
and we're definitely a democracy. I hope you're right. I hope you're right. I think the pool
15:11
has been poisoned a little bit in our politics in the last decade
15:19
or so, or more than that maybe. Not just because of our politicians by any
15:23
means. I think social media has contributed to it as well. Thank you, Matt. Let's talk to Peter in
15:27
Oxford. Hi, Peter. Hi, Sheila. How are you? I'm fine, thank you
15:31
Yes, yeah, what's on your mind? So you're asking if Donald Trump is the sort of contributing factor to this violence
15:38
but I would say he's more of a symptom than a cause. Okay. Although he is fanning the flame
15:43
But obviously what I would want to say is that people can see that not just nationally
15:47
but globally we live in a corrupt world with a corrupt economic global elite
15:53
And they basically do whatever the hell they want, and there's no legal ramifications for the things that they do
15:59
they're making our lives worse constantly. Who are we talking about? I'm talking about, you could probably put the blame on all of them
16:07
but I mean, obviously Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump are directly doing it right now
16:11
In what way? Describe, just explain to me. Well, by starting a war in Iran, making all of our bills go up
16:18
and potentially leading to starvation of millions of people if we don't get fertilisers in the ground quickly enough
16:26
Okay, and who else is on your list? well i'd say it goes back as far as people like tony blair tony blair is never going to face
16:33
justice that man should be in prison for the rest of his life he killed a million iraqis by his
16:37
decisions and he's a george osborne his uh austerity measures killed 130 000 people he
16:44
should be in prison for the rest of his life never face legal ramifications and this is the problem
16:48
these elite they do these things there's no legal recourse for ordinary people they see this
16:53
and they know that these people will never face justice and under these circumstances yes people
16:58
who have nothing to lose will take matters into their own hands. So the short answer to your question, in my opinion, is yes
17:05
I think it's quite clear that since he came onto the scene
17:08
I mean, we already know that US politics was divided, and it has been, you know, since forever
17:16
But I think that if you look at the increase in the sort of
17:23
or the decrease, the devaluation and the lack of quality of the rhetoric
17:29
since he came on the scene, there's no doubt that him and the whole MAGA movement
17:35
have been responsible for this. And I think it's been orchestrated. I think that Vladimir Putin is known for wanting to sow discord in the West
17:44
as a way of destabilizing us. As we talked about before a few weeks ago, we know that..
17:50
But I don't think he needs Donald Trump to do that. No, he doesn't. He does that with his bot farms and stuff, doesn't he
17:56
My point is, though, the strategy... I rang you up a couple weeks ago
18:00
and we talked about Trump and Putin and all the rest of it. So that is a strategy taken from Putin's Russia
18:08
It's a strategy to destabilise nations by causing fights and divisions and opening those sores and wounds inside the country
18:19
So everyone talks about him not starting any wars before the last election
18:23
but what they missed is that he started a war in his own country, a civil war, an online predominantly civil war
18:29
that fermented hate and we are where we are today. And he called it January 6th riot
18:35
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that was stunning. I wouldn't call it a civil war at this stage
18:41
but it's a social war, which brings me to social media because I think social media is massively playing its part here
18:49
And he, maybe to people's surprise, is a genius user of social media
18:57
By the way, that's not a compliment to him. There a brilliant piece in The Times recently by Matthew Said where he describes how effective Donald Trump is at the various things he wants to affect It not universal not always by any means
19:12
And again, it's not a compliment to say somebody is effective. It's just a fact that he clearly is on so many levels
19:20
But he might argue, how about this, Joshua? He might argue, I'm not doing it to foment violence
19:26
I'm doing it to break up a cosy consensus that is getting America nowhere
19:32
That's his argument, really. I mean, well, this is the thing. Anyone can say anything now and it can pass off as a credible argument
19:40
The media have facilitated both sides of the environment where you can pretend that two things have equal weight
19:47
So anyone can say anything. So, yeah, he could say that, but at the end of the..
19:52
Not really. Not every bit of the media is like that. Not every bit of the media
19:56
Social media is. Well, so American media is very, very polarised, and I watch that very, very closely
20:03
But social media, who owns social media? Who are they in bed with? Who are they friends with
20:08
They're all friends with him. So X has been turned into an absolute right-wing
20:12
far-right hate sewer. I think we can all agree on that, and if we don't agree on that, we're all right
20:17
Well, hang on. Not just far-right. It's a sewer, full stop. Yeah, fine
20:23
What's on it? But I would say, given that the person who owns it is predominantly associated with the far right
20:30
and there's much evidence to say that, I'll just say the Nazi salute. Let's just call it that. Let's just put it there
20:36
Gave Nazi salute. So I'd associate it more with the far right than the far left
20:40
But I accept that there are extremists across Twitter. But when I put it on there, when I put it on my screen, all I see is anti-black, anti-Jew
20:51
and that's predominantly in my view has its roots in the far right
20:55
We can argue and we can, again, it's to both sides because you can easily create a million bots
21:00
that push the other side to make it look fair and balanced. But Joshua, I can tell you from personal experience
21:05
they're not just bots. I have a lot of stuff thrown at me on social media
21:10
that's aggressive and unpleasant and untrue and it is not just from right-wing people by any means
21:18
Yeah, I don't dispute that it is But if you're receiving it from the left, then what are you saying about your politics
21:23
I'm receiving it from all sides. Oh, yeah. One day I'm a right-wing fascist
21:28
The next day I'm a lefty liberal lovey who's going to send this country to hell in a handcart
21:33
Like, I've got any power to do that. With the greatest love and respect to you, Sheila
21:37
anybody that's calling you a lefty lovey liberal doesn't understand politics. Because I wouldn't put you in that category at all
21:45
What would you put? What do you hear, Joshua? Let's test our..
21:49
Because we're both having a kind of mutual theory off here, aren't we? So what do you hear
21:55
I've listened to you for quite a long time. And, you know, I would say that there was once a time
22:00
that I would have considered you very, very, just straight down the middle, centrist
22:06
I do think, and I say this would be the greatest love and respect, you have been to veer off into the right a little bit recently
22:13
But, you know, that's just my view. And I say it with respect
22:17
On particular issues or generally? I think that one of the things that people haven't talked about
22:25
is how regular folk have been captured by this online world as well
22:29
So people that once may have had very sensible views have been embedded in the social media world
22:37
and they've started to take on some of those views as well. And I think that we all kind of need to watch our blind spots in that sort of thing
22:43
Of course we do. But what I will say is, with respect to the Israel thing, that you constantly are criticised for
22:49
Yeah. It's not the only thing I'm constantly criticised for. No, no, for sure, but that's probably the biggest
22:54
It's not the biggest. To my mind, as a non-Jewish person, as a non-Israeli
23:00
it seems to me like the far right, the global far right
23:04
have captured a certain part of the propaganda narrative and they are using Israel as a conduit
23:10
So if you look at Benjamin Netanyahu's government, the people that are propping him up are the far right
23:17
The people that are constantly waving the Israeli flag on X, for example
23:23
constantly, I see this all the time, are far right figures in the UK
23:28
Sorry, when you say waving the flag, do you mean just having it on their Twitter bio and that kind of thing
23:34
No, I mean using anti-Semitism as a weapon or using pro-Israeli or pro-far right
23:43
What do you think anti-Semitism is, if not a weapon? Against Jews, sorry
23:51
All right, let me give you an example. I'll give you a perfect example. So if it's a Corbyn that's anti-Semitic
23:56
they'll shout from the hills about it. But as soon as Nigel Farage is accused of anti-Semitism
24:00
radio silence. Not radio silence, discussed it at length. Not from, no, no, no, I'm not talking about you, though, Sheila
24:06
I'm not talking about you. Yeah, but I'm not the only one discussing it at length. It's discussed at length
24:10
Because bear in mind, a lot of the discussions we have are prompted by the discussions that are being had around us, you know, online, offline, politicians
24:20
No, I just want to say, I think the far right and the hard right use Israel as a weapon
24:26
I think they do. I know, I'm laughing, Josh. I don't doubt it
24:30
But have you seen the hard left on that issue? Hang on, have you seen the hard left on that issue
24:37
Yeah, they're morons. I don't dispute that. I'm not disputing that, but they're not using the Israeli cause as a weapon to beat other religions with
24:45
Yeah, they are. Yeah, they are. I don't doubt you're right about elements of the far right as well
24:51
Of course you are. But the idea that that is a uniquely right wing problem, both online and offline, is for the birds, Joshua
24:59
You know, it is. And by the way, it's been really, really lovely talking to you
25:03
And the reason I asked you about me wasn't so I could indulge myself for four minutes about how I come across
25:09
I just think it's an example. Mine and Joshua's conversation there is an example of the back and forth on issues
25:15
and how we can conduct ourselves. And I think we both conducted ourselves very well in that conversation
25:21
without threatening each other. Yeah, we did call someone morons, but I let him off because I agreed with him
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