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The double stabbing of two Jewish men in Golders Green has sparked outrage and fear across Britain as politicians, journalists and legal experts react live. Andrew Marr debates policing, the role of government, extremism, and whether Britain is facing a deeper crisis of anti-semitism with guests. 00:00 | Sarah Sackman, Labour MP for Finchley and Golders Green and Minister of State for Courts and Legal Services 07:26 | Anthony Julius, lawyer, academic, and author of 'History of English Antisemitism' 11:28 | Jonathan Freedland, Guardian Columnist and co-host of the podcast 'Unholy: Two Jews on the News'. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #andrewmarr #debate #ukpolitics #uknews #news #antisemitism #goldersgreen #londonnews #london #starmer #keirstarmer #jonathanfreedland #labour #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Sarah, thanks very much for being on the show
0:02
First of all, to use an old-fashioned lefty word, can I express solidarity with you and your community
0:08
on this very, very difficult day? Don't you find it grotesque that a Jewish listener to LBC
0:14
is talking there about leaving the country because they don't feel safe
0:18
Now, I know that person is not alone. A lot of Jews are thinking about moving to Israel
0:23
or even to the United States to get out of Britain. What's your feeling about that
0:27
I do find it appalling, Andrew. I understand it. What's happened today is terror and the buildup
0:37
the slow incremental buildup of arson attacks, of ambient antisemitism, antisemitism on campus
0:45
on our streets. And now today, the shocking violence that we've seen today, it causes fear
0:51
Of course it does. And I'm very clear, the person who did this, like the person who perpetrated the massacre at Heaton Park, they don't share our values
1:02
And what I think your listeners need to understand, irrespective of their background, is that an attack on British Jews in my constituency is an attack on Britain itself
1:12
And there is a job of work for government to do. There's a job of work for our police to do
1:16
There's a job of work for institutions to do. But this is on everyone
1:21
This is a societal problem. And we need our allies everywhere to stand up and show solidarity
1:27
So that word, that introduction that you started with is incredibly important
1:32
Well, of course, we agree about this, Justice Minister. Can I ask you about those jobs to do you mentioned
1:37
You've been with the head of the Met today reacting to this. What can he tell you? What can you tell our listeners about extra policing help for a very, very frightened and very vulnerable community
1:50
Well, your listeners may not be aware that for decades now, Jewish premises have been secured
1:56
When I dropped my children off at Hebrew school on a Sunday when we attend synagogue, there have been security guards
2:03
But that security effort has had to be ramped up because of the increased threat that we've seen over recent weeks
2:08
And I want to commend the police and the commissioner of the Met, who we heard from earlier, because their presence, their reassurance, their intervention today, alongside the brilliant work of Shamrim, who are a local organization that protect the community, has been excellent
2:25
And their intervention prevented even worse harm coming to the community. Indeed. Sarah, sorry to jump in for a second, though. This attack happened at a bus station, a bus stop
2:36
Don't Jewish people in North London need much more visible policing on the street to protect people going about their ordinary daily lives
2:45
They do. And I was in straight away when I heard about this incident with the Home Secretary to make that very case
2:52
They do. But the other thing is, Andrew, Jews in this country do not want to live behind higher walls
2:59
Of course, they deserve to feel safe. And the policing effort and the law enforcement is absolutely vital
3:06
But we want to go about our daily lives as normal members of society
3:11
People don't want to live smaller Jewish lives and they want to go about their daily work life, social life with their neighbours
3:20
And that's why we need allyship. And I do want to reiterate this today. Our allies are everywhere, but their voices are needed more than ever because my phone has been full
3:29
of people from the Jewish community who are fearful, who are fed up of what's happened today
3:34
Frankly, they're sickened. But I've also had my phone phone for messages from local imams, from local vicars
3:41
from civic leaders who are standing in solidarity with the community. That is so important and we need more of that
3:47
I want to come back in a moment to what non people can do and say to help But in terms of policy one thing I hear a lot from Jewish people is that they are fed up of the failure of the government
4:02
to ban the IRGC, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Committee. And they feel that the Iranians are
4:09
behind some of this and that the government's failure to ban the IRGC is shameful. Now
4:16
We've heard from the Prime Minister he's going to do something about it at some point
4:20
Can you tell us any more about when that ban is going to happen? Some of this is being orchestrated by foreign actors and Iran
4:31
Some of this is homegrown radicalisation and Islamist extremism. Antisemitism, unfortunately, takes many forms and we need to root it out wherever we find it
4:41
But let me be absolutely clear on the IRGC. The Prime Minister has said it is going to be prescribed
4:46
And that is what must happen. Are we going to see that prescription coming in the King's speech after the May elections
4:52
I certainly hope so. I've been calling for it for a very long time. The Prime Minister has said it's going to happen and clearly it must
4:59
But in addition to that, the government has certainly not been passive
5:03
We've seen law changes to prevent the cumulative effect of ongoing protests
5:08
of people wearing face coverings, of people targeting Jewish places of worship
5:13
We've seen additional funding for organizations like the Community Security Trust. We've seen a real effort to tackle anti-Semitism on campus, in the NHS and in workplaces
5:23
All of that is needed. Government has a vital role to play
5:26
I'm very clear about that. But this is a societal problem. We need all our institutions, our university leaders, our hospital leaders, the CPS, the
5:35
police, people who note and see casual anti-Semitism in their workplace. Every single one of us needs to be standing up
5:44
Calling it out. Calling it out. Every single one of your listeners has a role to play in this
5:49
because what starts with Britain's Jews does not end there. This is really a fight for the heart and soul of British values
5:57
Couldn't agree more. But in terms of calling it out, you were standing in the street earlier on
6:01
and I saw that you and the head of the Met were both being quite aggressively heckled
6:06
Now, was that because of anger in your community? and if so, what's your message directly back to the people who are shouting
6:14
Well, I'd say this. We have to stand together. I understand that people are angry
6:20
I understand that people are scared. I've got skin in the game. I feel that in my stomach as well
6:25
as not just the local MP advocating for this community, but as a member of it
6:31
But we have to recognise that the police, that the government, that these institutions are standing with the community
6:38
are investing in greater security, are doing what it takes. And that's what's needed
6:45
That is what the moment requires. So I understand the feeling and I don't seek to minimize it
6:54
And I'm not surprised by it. But this moment really demands a coming together. And I think
6:59
the fact that the prime minister is at this very moment calling a COBRA meeting speaks to the sense
7:05
of urgency and emergency, but this requires a coming together of British people and British
7:12
institutions to stand squarely with British Jews. Absolutely. Justice Minister Sarah Sackman
7:18
thank you very much indeed for talking to LBC on this very difficult day. And listening to that
7:24
and joining me now is Anthony Julius Casey, the lawyer and author of A History of English
7:29
anti-semitism. Anthony, it's great to have you on the show again. As the author of that book
7:35
can I just start by asking you to put the anti-semitism of the moment, the attacks going
7:40
on in North London and Manchester and elsewhere in the context of what happened in the 20th century in this country Thank you for inviting me on the show
7:53
It's an absolutely shocking, shocking day. And Jews fear now in a way that I think they haven't for some time
8:05
You ask for a historical context. the reference points for me have to be in the Middle Ages
8:12
Actually, the experience of Jews in the Middle Ages was one characterized by random violence
8:18
a predatory, murderous state, the institutions of the country, showing a kind of cold indifference to the situation of Jews
8:30
or actively colluding in the persecution of Jews. Perhaps listening to that very broad characterization of medieval England, people may feel that there are at any rate some parallels that can be drawn
8:46
Between the 12th and 13th century and the 21st century, the experience of Jews in this country, it's been patchy
8:56
But broadly speaking, to hold a British passport since the middle of the 17th century has been a blessing for Jews
9:07
It's a shocking thing, of course. Indeed. Many hundreds of years after the expulsion of the Jews in 1290, Jews are now considering whether it's in their interest to leave
9:18
Well, one thing that's changed, I guess, is that back then, or indeed in the 20th century, there wasn't militant Islamism present in Britain as well
9:27
And to what extent do you feel that, I'm not saying it's caused by Gaza or caused by the war or caused by anything, but it's related to what's gone on in the Middle East
9:36
and that there are very, very angry, hostile communities now in the UK looking at the Jewish community here in a way that wouldn't have been back in the 1920s or 30s or indeed in the 1330s
9:48
But there always have been reasons given by Jew haters to justify their hatred
9:59
You very correctly talk about radical Islamism, but in the 13th century, it was radical Christian crusader zeal
10:08
And the accusation against the Jews collectively was that they were responsible for persecutions of a divine transcendental character
10:18
The anti-Semitism, broadly speaking, is characterized by the opportunistic exploitation of allegations against one or more Jews
10:31
often misrepresenting the true situation in addition, which then become the excuse for violence against Jews generally
10:40
In that sense, there's no difference between where we are now and where we were many occasions in the past
10:47
I don't know if you were able to hear the top of the program, but I was trying to list, at least acknowledge, the huge numbers of Jews who changed this country during the 20th century
10:57
And, you know, we can talk about Isaiah Berlin, we can talk about all sorts of scientists and so forth and business people
11:03
We are now beginning to see a migration of Jews out of Britain
11:07
Do you think we are losing that whole tradition of 20th century sort of Jewish intellectual leadership and progress
11:15
Yes. Yes. Yes, we do. Well, that's a very, that's a, that's a solemn, stark way to end
11:21
But Anthony Julius, for now, thank you very much indeed, because I want to get a sense also of the debates going on inside the British Jewish community
11:30
Johnny Friedland Jonathan Friedland the Guardian writer and co of the podcast Unholy Two Jews on the News joins me now Jonathan we been following your debates with your fellow podcaster your co in Israel
11:47
about feelings in the diaspora, feelings inside Israel. What do you think these kind of attacks are doing
11:54
to your community in London? Well, I think they're making, as you've been hearing
11:59
from Anthony Julius and Sarah Sackman, And people who had felt rooted, settled, certain about their place here feel less certain
12:10
I don't think it's yet translated into migration on any kind of scale
12:15
But even the fact that it's a question, even that it's a conversation for people who consider themselves as British as anyone else is a shock
12:24
And it's a big moment for that to have happened. And in terms of the connection with Israel, it's complicated because on the one hand
12:37
there will be a feeling of collective feeling that somehow, you know, all Jews are being
12:43
lumped in together and put collectively in the dock, even for things over which they
12:48
have no control. A Jew in gold as green is not making policy in Gaza
12:54
It's worth stressing. and yet they are somehow being held to account for something in the crudest and most brutal way
13:00
for something over which they have no control. And so one thing I've noticed is that people in this country who may be very dissenting
13:07
and sceptical and critical of the Israeli government, in some ways they park that because they now think
13:13
well, there's no time for that kind of nuanced internal conversation. In a moment like this, we all need to stand together because we are under attack together
13:20
I mean, I said at the top of the show that, you know, you don't find British Chinese people being abused or attacked because of what the Communist Party in Beijing are doing to the Uyghurs or in Hong Kong or anything like that
13:35
It does seem to come worse to Jews. Do you think this is part of, as Anthony Julius was suggesting, a sort of centuries long anti-Semitism that is deeply rooted in Britain and is just sort of bubbling back out again
13:48
Well, it's very depressing but tempting to jump to that conclusion because, as you say
13:53
the anomalous nature of this has struck me too. I mean, when Russia invaded Ukraine, Russian Orthodox churches in London and around the
14:02
country did not suddenly need 24-hour guards. No, indeed. People knew and were able to carry in their heads that they despised Vladimir Putin and
14:11
and what Russia was doing without taking that out on aligned or affiliated people thousands of miles away
14:18
Similarly, people despise in Britain Donald Trump. You don't see bricks going through the windows of American-owned shops and so on
14:25
So this is peculiar, it seems to me, to the Jewish diaspora. I don't think another diaspora community goes through this
14:32
And I think that's a question, you know, people will jump to the conclusion that you not jump to
14:37
they'll arrive at the conclusion you or Anthony were discussing, that it's because of something deep in the kind of soil of the country
14:43
that goes back centuries and centuries that reaches so quickly. But I think the challenge is on people who are, by their own description, anti-racist
14:51
I think they need to be asking themselves tonight, why is it that non-Jews have not already organised a mass demonstration or rally
15:00
in Trafalgar Square scheduled for this weekend to say, we stand against racism and with our Jewish brothers and sisters
15:08
It hasn't yet happened, even after synagogues being firebombed day after day
15:12
and now immortal attacks on Jews in the streets of God's Green. Where is the anti-racist left now when one of Britain's minorities
15:20
one of its oldest minorities, needs their alliance and solidarity? I can't think of a more urgent question
15:26
When it happens, if it happens, I'll be there. Johnny Friedland, thank you very much indeed for joining LBC
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