Up next in 10
Former Scottish First Minister Humza Yousaf joins Andrew Marr.
They discuss:
00:00 | His family escape from Gaza and the two-state solution
04:30 | Zack Polanski and the Green Party's 'Zionism is racism' vote
07:45 | Scottish independence and what 'Englishness' and 'Scottishness' mean
10:25 | Being a Western Muslim and the current state of unrest and protests in the UK.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
#andrewmarr #humzayousaf #scotland #scottishfirstminister #ukpolitics #politics #greenparty #greens #zackpolanski #zionism #racism #debate #uknews #scottishindependence #suellabraverman #gosport #LBC
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0:00
Gaza is back in the headlines this week, less thankfully because of new fighting there
0:04
but because of the Green Party voting that Zionism is a form of racism
0:09
a notion deeply upsetting to many Jews, as is a proposed march through London
0:13
on the anniversary of the October 7th attacks by Hamas. But let's start with Gaza
0:19
The former First Minister of Scotland, Hamza Youssef, has written a memoir called Under Fire
0:24
in part about his own family's nightmarish month in 2023 under attack by Israel in Gaza
0:31
He joined me a bit earlier on and I asked him to take me through that traumatic period
0:35
Well, let's just go back a little bit. My wife, Nadia, a Scottish-Palestinian
0:39
her father born in Gaza. My mother-in-law and father-in-law travel out to Gaza
0:43
on the 3rd of October, 2023. From Dundee. From Dundee, where Nadia's mother is born and bred
0:49
and Nadia's father has been there since the 1980s. And they travel on the 3rd of October
0:53
because Nadia's grandmother still lives in Gaza, quite elderly, quite frail, quite ill
0:57
So they go to see her. And then the 7th of October happens
1:01
horrific attack by Hamas. And then we know the brutal retaliation that follows almost immediately straight after
1:08
In terms of the speech, I'm assuming you're talking about the conference speech at the SNP conference. My first as party leaders, turned out my only one
1:14
Big moment, yeah. Yeah, as any party leader. And as you covered, the election contest
1:20
was quite a divisive one. The party fairly divided. I've got to bring the party together
1:24
by this point my in-laws have been stuck in Gaza for a week
1:27
with no hope of getting them out and a country to run
1:32
and all that pressure comes the party conference is about to start
1:39
and then at 1am in the morning we get a phone call from Nadia's mother
1:44
saying that and I'll never forget these words she says to me
1:48
Hamza, I think we're about to die just promise me that you'll take care of my girls
1:53
and I obviously ask what happens and I put her on speakerphone
1:58
Nadia wakes up beside me and it seems like that they've been told
2:02
that the neighbourhood's about to be hit and they don't know where to go and she asks me what do I do
2:06
Do I return back to the family home and just wait or do I just wander the streets
2:10
and we don't know what to do It turns out it was a false alarm
2:14
the neighbourhood wasn't attacked and wasn't hit but it was just one of those moments of many
2:19
during that torrid four weeks, which the book talks about, where we genuinely thought my mother-in-law and father-in-law
2:25
were going to die in Gaza. Unbearable times and unbearable pressure. We're talking at a time when the two-state solution
2:33
of Israel living in a friendly, neighbourly way with a Palestinian state seems to be vanishing
2:39
from the political world. On the one hand, we've got what you describe in the book
2:43
as greater Israel, Israel grabbing more and more land in every direction the Netanyahu project you know backed by people like Mike Huckabee in the United States And on the other hand we now got the single state as it were Arab solution which obliterates
2:58
the state of Israel, as, you know, a lot of people on that side of the argument are calling
3:02
for pretty openly these days. Do you fear that the sensible, you know, practical middle road alternative is now vanishing
3:12
Well, look, a couple of things. let me push back slightly on the framing because I'm not convinced that the Arabs would say
3:17
that they now want a one-state solution. I think many of the Arab countries have been open
3:21
to a two-state solution, but they can talk for themselves. Let me also just say very clearly
3:26
that this hasn't happened out of vacuum. It's not suddenly that we wake up
3:29
and you've got two absolute dispositions. The reason why, and I agree with the Foreign Secretary
3:34
it's very unusual perhaps for me to say as an SNP former First Minister
3:38
but I have to commend Ed Miliband in his statement to the House of Commons and saying the reason why they're taking such strong action now
3:44
and I think action that's commendable, is because Israel has, over many years
3:49
occupied more and more Palestinian land. And therefore, a two-state solution becomes an even more distant reality
3:55
And they're doing it now deliberately to stop a two-state solution. That is the outspoken, clear intention
4:01
Well, exactly. The most important word to use is outspoken. The Israeli government under Benjamin Netanyahu, in particular
4:07
but even previous Israeli governments, have been very open about the fact that they see greater Israel
4:13
which is not just the occupation of the entire Palestinian land, but parts of Syria, Lebanon and other surrounding countries
4:18
as part of prophetic tradition and prophetic vision that they have. But the reason we've got to this point is I'm afraid
4:25
and I say this again as somebody who's born and bred in the West, particularly Western governments, have looked the other way
4:31
while more and more land theft has happened and more and more Palestinians have been kicked off with their land
4:36
So do you think, to quote the Green Party's recent motion, that Zionism is racism
4:42
So this question, I think, is a classic case of two things being absolutely true at the same time
4:47
So on the one hand, Zionists, people who are Jewish, who believe in Jewish self-determination
4:53
a Jewish homeland is something I would support. I have no issue with that, just in the same way I believe any people that should determine their own self and their own future
5:01
The other side of it that is also true and we have to accept is absolutely true
5:05
is that the realisation of Zionism has meant that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians
5:11
have been displaced off the land. Like my wife's gran in 1948 was one of the 750,000
5:16
who were told to leave the land and their town completely wiped off the map
5:21
And the realisation of Zionism by the success of Israeli governments has meant occupation, has meant ethnic cleansing
5:27
I would argue has meant genocide as we've seen over the last three years. And therefore there's no doubt at all
5:32
that the current policies and the realisation of Zionism has undoubtedly resulted in racist policies There no argument about that In fact the ICJ said as much in 2024 But the belief in a Jewish homeland is not of itself racist No of course it not In the same way that the belief in a Muslim homeland
5:49
is not in itself racist or a homeland for Christian people or wanting self-determination for Scots or Kashmiris
5:55
You know, that is not racist in itself. But the realisation of that in its current form
5:59
and the way that Israel has not only been founded in 1948
6:04
and again, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians kicked off their land, never to return
6:09
But to the modern day, where we've seen laws, effectively, of segregation
6:13
You know, there's a street on Hebron where, you know, you cannot go down if you're a Palestinian
6:18
but you can go down if you're Jewish. That is about, you know, as clear an example of segregation as you can get
6:23
That is in itself racist. And I think the Greens have, what I'm quite frustrated at the Greens about
6:28
frankly speaking, is that we were in a position where there was rightly
6:32
I think, a bit of heat going on the Israeli government, foreign secretary piling on some pressure
6:37
and now the entire conversation has now been distracted about whether or not Zionism is racism
6:44
I think that's pretty unforgivable. And do you feel sympathy? Do you understand why many British Jews
6:49
feel under attack and very worried at the moment? Of course. Well, we should never invalidate
6:53
the feelings of British Jewish people. I think we are at a difficult moment
6:57
in truth, Andrew, because on the one hand, we absolutely should not invalidate those feelings
7:01
If a Jewish person is saying to me, I feel unsafe, I feel under attack
7:04
then we've got to accept that that's a valid feeling of course and I wouldn't try to argue
7:09
with a Jewish person otherwise. We also have to accept on the other hand that people have an
7:13
absolute right and I would say a moral obligation to stand up against what many of us view to be a
7:18
live stream genocide. We're talking about a year on since the so-called ceasefire was announced
7:23
1300 people have been killed in Palestine including over 300 children. That's not a
7:27
ceasefire in anybody's definition. So the question is how do you get to two positions that can be
7:32
equally valid and equally true and sincerely held and still allow people to have the freedom
7:37
of expression to campaign or march or protest against that, I think that's where difficult
7:41
conversation has to be had. Can I ask you about identity here in the UK
7:46
There was a very poignant moment in the middle of Andy Burnham's speech when he quoted your
7:51
successor, John Swinney, saying that he was going to be the last Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
7:56
I'd like your views on whether you think that's likely to be so. but also there's a bigger argument here in England
8:03
about whether Englishness means white whereas in Scotland it's pretty clear that for most people Scottishness does not necessarily mean white
8:12
so just talk a little bit about the differences across the UK about what identity actually means
8:18
Well let me go to your first point about John Swinney and I of course agree with John Swinney
8:22
I mean I certainly hope that Andy Burnham is the last Prime Minister of the United Kingdom you wouldn't expect me to say anything else
8:27
the truth of the matter is we've got an impasse between the two governments and we have to find a way potentially with a third party broker coming in and negotiating and mediating between the two governments Who could that be To find a trigger point I don know And I would hesitate to speculate
8:41
who that might be. And it could be a UN agency. It could be a third-party state
8:46
But somebody that's trusted between both governments to come in and say, well, what is the trigger point
8:49
Because we can't just keep having the same argument with the UK government saying no
8:54
and they have the power to do so because we know the Supreme Court judgment. And the Scottish government
8:58
the Scottish Parliament, I would say having a very valid argument saying, well, we keep winning elections and we are supportive of independence
9:04
So that's the position. In terms of identity, which is a question I've wrestled with my whole life, whether it's post 9-11, whether it's through more recent rises in anti-Muslim hatred
9:15
I find it utterly and thoroughly depressing that we are having a conversation often in mainstream media platforms
9:24
And that's not a criticism of you asking a very legitimate question about what defines Englishness or Scottishness
9:30
Because I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that Jude Bellingham is English
9:35
Jude Bellingham can speak very eloquently himself. But are we seriously saying that more than half of the English squad are not English
9:41
and what Suella Braverman has done with, and I think she is an incredibly useful idiot
9:49
quite frankly, for reform. What she has done is deliberately blown a dog whistle
9:55
which legitimises the mainstreams this as even a question, as though it should even be a question
10:00
that most of us would say, of course somebody who, you know, this is their home
10:05
whether they're born here or whether they've made their home here, if they identify as English or Scottish
10:10
then of course they're Scottish. that is very different to what Suela Braverman said without saying
10:15
but very clearly blew a dog whistle towards, which is you have to be white to be English
10:19
which is taking us back many decades. So we are moving into a dangerous new kind of politics
10:24
I imagine, in your view. When you have said, I'm a Western Muslim
10:29
I understand the Muslim bit. For you, what's the Western bit mean? I think partly because when I talk about being a Muslim
10:35
people think that, well, he must identify with the politics of the East
10:41
as we often describe it, though I'm not a big fan of those terms, though I use them myself. You know, he must sympathise with the politics of the East
10:47
He must have loyalties to the East, whether it's Pakistan or some other country, Palestine
10:52
And actually I say, look, I am a Western Muslim. I was born in the West. I believe in Western democratic values
10:58
I've argued for them passionately. And this is where my loyalties lie
11:04
And what upsets me about this, my children who are also Western Muslims
11:09
People and forces are trying to force us from our very homes
11:13
trying to make life so unbearable for us that they want to see us gone from the very country
11:18
continent, indeed hemisphere, that we call home. Homsi Youssef, it's been great having you in the studio
11:23
At long last, in person..
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