Up next in 10
Henry Riley joins James O'Brien and Lewis Goodall joins Shelagh Fogarty to discuss the latest development in the appointment of an ex-neo Nazi as a Tory adviser.
The Tory leader has hired Joshua Bonehill-Paine to be an adviser to the party's culture and integration commission, an unpaid position with a focus on how young men can become radicalised.
The 33-year-old had been chosen to stand for election to Somerset Council, in the Crewkerne South ward, but has now withdrawn.
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0:00
Baden-Ock rejects coalition with blank reform
0:05
Um, shall I tell you now what it is? Henry, do you know what it is? I told you what it is
0:09
I'll do it all. Henry Riley is here to solve the mystery, solve the mystery of why we think
0:16
Kemi Baden-Ock has or had such a blind spot for this particular former Nazi
0:23
Yes, and so this, as you've been talking about this hour, James Joshua Bonehill-Payne
0:27
I thought first I'd bring you all the charges that are ready to him as well
0:32
So the first one was the conviction for assaulting a police officer
0:36
and burglary of a police station when he was 18. He broke into a charge police station in 2011
0:42
He stole a uniform, body armour, a baton, handcuffs, and was given a community order at Yeovil Magistrates Court
0:48
In 2014, he was convicted of malicious communications over an anti-Islam hoax
0:53
that led to death threats against the owner of a pub in Leicester. The Globe in Leicester had to close
0:58
because people were threatening to firebomb it and kill the staff after a website he was running had falsely claimed
1:04
that the pub had banned all military personnel to avoid offending immigrants
1:09
He was jailed in 2015, again, you mentioned, for more than three years after posting vile anti-Semitic material online
1:16
ahead of a planned neo-Nazi rally. In 2015, under the Public Order Act
1:23
he was involved in a fake poster claiming that an illegal immigrant with Ebola was missing in Leicester
1:28
with posters being put up around the city. He was also behind a false campaign
1:33
that a white British girl had been abducted by an Asian grooming gang in Croydon
1:38
In 2016, he was found guilty of racially aggravated harassment for abuse directed at Luciana Berger again
1:45
which you've spoken about. Very offensive things like being a rodent and an evil money grabber
1:51
And then he was previously involved with the National British Resistance. So, I mean, there's clearly quite the history there
1:58
And Kemi Badenoch has really been out on a limb, as you said, James, to defend this man at the expense of offending some Conservative councillors
2:06
This was Kemi Badenoch speaking with the BBC. He is standing to be a councillor in Somerset
2:12
It is a local platform looking at parking, sorting out bins. That's what councillors do
2:18
It's not a national platform. I have a much higher threshold for what it takes to be a Conservative MP
2:23
Yeah, and parking and bins, I think, particularly offensive to some councillors who would argue..
2:28
No, I was talking to a local businessman in Brentford the other day about a building that we're concerned about
2:32
because it's brown asbestos. Oh, right. And we go to the council about that
2:37
That's just one example of something that's neither parking nor bins, and is potentially a matter of life and death
2:42
But hey-ho, Bader-Knock knows better. And social care as well, of course, a huge part of what councils do
2:48
So this individual, clearly very close. I mean, Kenny Bade-Knock saying yesterday he is going to have this new role as a sort of advisor
2:55
So he's sort of not important enough to go beyond parking and bins
2:59
but he is now going to be an advisor on countering extremism, which is obviously, you know, very an important issue
3:06
And he's going to be advising the Conservative Party, which some people have raised an eyebrow about
3:11
He's very influential online. If you look at YouTube, he has more than 50,000 followers
3:15
but some of the videos are getting half a million views for sort of rap videos
3:20
of which you'll hear in a moment. He's got more than 40,000 followers on X
3:26
Those videos do even better on X, some getting millions of views
3:30
and they depict a whole host of different people. I mean, some are quite offensive, James, I'll be honest
3:35
To whom, though? To, this is difficult to say, people who perhaps have glasses
3:42
an offensive word for people who have glasses, beginning with S, a four-letter word beginning with T
3:48
and that was targeting Darren Jones Andy Burnham and Keir Starmer. Oh, so he continues to be very abusive to some politicians
3:54
Yes. Right. And if you look at the videos, James... I probably won't
3:58
That's why you're here. Well, let me play. So this is a rap of Kemi Badenoch on a housing estate Just listen to this It a Kemi rap Andy Andy blink if you PM Labour change leader by quarter past ten No vote no mandate no plan in sight
4:12
Just two fake lashes and a black T-shirt. You turn left, you turn right
4:16
Labour in ruins by broad daylight. Kemi stood up and she ended the fight. Mr Speaker, it's the lashes and a black T-shirt, right
4:25
Yeah, I mean, it's quite good. And also puts Kemi Badenock in a great light, right
4:30
I mean, she's... Now we're getting to it. Here we are, defeating this guy in a black T-shirt
4:34
Temi Baden-Ock reportedly terminally online. Yes. An awful lot of her decisions and interventions in public life
4:39
only really make sense if you imagine her spending her entire life scrolling through Twitter
4:44
And here is somebody casting her as a sort of cross between Margaret Thatcher and Boudicca with a side order of Beyonce
4:51
She looks very cool in the videos as well. Contrasted with Andy Burnham
4:55
who's on the floor with a massive belly, actually, which I don't think he has in real life
5:00
but they make him out to be sort of absurdly fat. Anyway, this is the Andy Burnham rap
5:05
No manifesto, no crown, no vote, just a selfie vid in a northern coat
5:10
Keir got binned, Reeves got shook. I became PM by a Facebook look
5:15
Blink, blink, Burnham, save your insight. Mascara, Marxist in a fitted T-tie
5:20
Merseyside mouth with a Manchester spin. Lost the whole plot, but I'm trying to grid
5:25
La, I'm casual, la, I'm real, got more... And it goes on. AI generated, but you need to program AI
5:31
Exactly. In summary, he makes Kemi Badenoch look fantastic while attacking her political rivals
5:39
That's right. And the last one I'm going to play you, James, I'm not going to play the whole album. This is turning into a music program
5:44
No, I know. I've always wanted to be a proper DJ. I think what's interesting is it was previously pro-Nigel Farage
5:51
and pro-Kemi Badenoch. Oh, yeah. And what's interesting is since, of course
5:55
those two have been at loggerheads, it's turned into being very pro-Kemi Badenoch from what I can see
5:59
But this was posted not long ago. This was Kemi Badeknook and Nigel Farage
6:03
He's wearing a sort of Paul Weller-style fur coat and looking quite cool himself
6:07
My buckle. This is them rapping together. We don't like each other, but we hate Starmer more
6:14
Kick down the budget, then we kick down the door. Nigel in a pub and Kimmy on the floor
6:20
shouting, who the hell's in charge, because it ain't Starmer anymore. Hey
6:24
Who knows in charge bills it ain't summer anymore We don't like each other but we hate summer more
6:34
Kick down the budget then we kick down the door That's going to be baited like in the last bit
6:40
Quite catchy, but anyway. There's also another interesting part to this, James, in that Reform UK are asking..
6:45
This is the guy that she's putting in, who thinks wants to be a councillor and is now advising
6:49
He's now advising on extremists. The last thing I would say is... So there it is. Reform UK are actually asking for an apology from Kemi Bednock
6:55
because she had told Jewish News that he was giving police officers, for example
7:03
training on anti-Semitism because he'd seen the error of his ways. And actually, Jewish News got a statement from the Home Office
7:08
saying the Home Office does not certify individuals to deliver training. Oh, really
7:12
Yes, Reform is saying Kemi Bednock needs to apologise when this is a, quote, total fabrication of what she had claimed
7:18
Well, I mean, I've got the words here. They're still in today's newspaper. but Josh is someone who actually has been certified by the Home Office
7:24
to train police officers on anti-Semitism and on countering extremism, and they're saying that's not true
7:29
That source that... Did Farage ever apologise for all the anti-Semitism that his former school friends alleged that he'd directed at them
7:36
He has not apologised for that. I didn't think so. Do you want to have a go at this
7:41
Bader not rejects... Because this is radio history. Do you want to stay in the studio to witness some radio history
7:46
You'll be making radio history of your own soon, Henry. Thank you. I don't know. So this is the missing word round
7:51
Baden-Ock rejects coalition with blank reform. And the answer is... woke. So Baden-Ock rejects a coalition with reform
8:02
because they're too woke. She has said that Nigel Farage is the leader of a woke party
8:08
And she couldn ever form a coalition with them because she could never trust Robert Jenrick or Suella Braverman thus reminding us that even a stopped clock is right twice a day So we got an unhinged well without now no we now know that this
8:20
Baden-Ock rejects coalition with woke reform is an... Unhinged headline. But of course, it's also, which we haven't done for a while..
8:34
Woke Watch. And it's a missing word round. So there are only currently four features live on the programme
8:43
because it's not the Andy Burnham Baroque. In terms of things that we take from the news
8:47
and then comment upon them and give them a silly name and maybe play a little daft jingle
8:51
there's only three currently live or four currently live. This one, I think, hits all three corners of the triangle
8:57
It is a missing word round. It is an unhinged headline and it is a woke watch
9:03
And that, Henry Riley, is how you make radio history. Amazing. I was here to witness it as well
9:08
I said to you yesterday, our question, our discussion was basically, why is it that Kemi Bajanok has appointed or is allowing a former neo-Nazi to stand with the Conservative Party
9:18
Well, our question today is why has Kemi Bajanok promoted a former neo-Nazi and given him a national role
9:23
particularly after, she said, of course, one of the justifications that she said that it was basically OK
9:28
to have a former neo-Nazi who spent three years in prison for, among other things, harassing the former Labour MP, Luciana Berger
9:34
One of the reasons she said it was quite useful to have him on Somerset County Council was that he was only dealing with the parking in the bin
9:39
so let's not worry too much about the extremist proclivities. And yet, she said, you know, we've got a much higher threshold
9:45
for doing a national job. Now, the response from his resignation and withdrawal of his candidacy
9:51
has been to make him a national adviser to the Conservative Party on anti-Semitism
9:55
So has given him a national job, precisely as she indicated she might be reluctant to do
10:01
Do we know what the job might involve if he ever gets to do it
10:05
Well, it is this advising the party on how to deal with anti-Semitism
10:09
Look, what Kemba Baden-Ock and the Conservative Party will say is that, you know, you need to have someone who has gone down the rabbit hole
10:16
quite far, as it turned out, for this gentleman, to really be able to tell you how to de-radicalise others
10:22
And of course there's an argument for that. Of course there is. I think what's interesting, though, is to sort of consider
10:26
why it is that Kemba Baden-Ock is so attached to this. Because, of course, some people have been saying
10:31
well this is about a principle a principle of of of redemption and contrition and forgiveness and
10:38
those things we were talking about yesterday um i think that there's a bit of that although we
10:43
should also say of course that miss bedenock is not someone who in her general politics attaches
10:48
that much weight and importance to those particular ideas so for example we see at the moment she's
10:55
engaged with what some of her critics have described as a bit of an internal purge of the party
11:00
basically insisting that even former members of parliament cannot even try and stand again for the party
11:06
in seats for the next general election because they do not agree with her about certain things
11:11
So the argument is, well, if this broad church is broad enough to have this gentleman involved
11:17
should it not be broad enough to have, I don't know, people like Grant Shapps or whoever it is who wants to be
11:22
or Gavin Barwell who lost a whip, who wants to be considered again
11:26
And so this is not something, these principles are not something that she shows in many other areas of her political life
11:34
And I think it's fair to say is then what is going on here? I think one thing that's going on, you could tell in the way that she talked about it on Twitter yesterday
11:41
She basically said that it may have been the case in the past that the Conservative Party would give in to wokery, but no longer
11:47
And I think this is basically the quite revealing bit of the Baden-Koch psychology
11:51
I think she has convinced herself that basically she must never be seen to give in to anything which might be construed as wokery or political correctness or cancel culture
12:04
That's fine. Lots of people will agree with that. And as we discussed yesterday, there have been times in our recent history we've certainly become a little too censorious and a little bit too quick to quote unquote cancel
12:12
But the problem with that if you take it to its absolute logical extreme is that you basically end up dying on a hill or drawing a line in the sand to have a political battle over whether a former neo can stand for you for a county council seat which
12:26
is not something i think that a more supple politician a more dexterous politician even if
12:31
they sort of went along with the principle in their own mind would have done or think it was
12:35
worth fighting for because even if you're going to be absolutely brutal about it the decision she's
12:39
left with is do i take the ongoing hit from having made the mistake and it will still come back and
12:46
bite me every now and again or do i continue to take a hit by promoting him and she's chosen the
12:52
latter and i i can't i don't get it well and indeed and luciana berger who of course was the
12:56
mp at the time and now baroness who this gentleman decided to harass for three years and as we
13:01
discussed yesterday if you read the sentencing remarks they are actually i think considerably
13:05
worse ugly ugly sinister sinister stuff you know basically saying among other things how he expressed
13:11
pleasure at seeing her displeasure in the court smirking throughout showing no contrition at the
13:16
Absolutely. And of course, he says that he's renounced all of that
13:19
And that's fair enough and fine. But of course, just because you renounced something doesn't mean the scars that you inflicted are not still there
13:27
And it clearly is for Luciana Berger, who is saying that it really bothers her that this person has now been given this national role within a party
13:34
There's also another story about him today, which in The Independent has been reporting
13:38
over claims that he has government certifications for his counterterrorism work. the independent reporting
13:45
that in fact he said in a post on X that the Home Office certification of my counter-extremism work
13:52
which he claims has taken him across the country delivering training to police officers, probation services, schools, universities
13:57
and other organisations. That claim repeated by Kemi Badenock but the Home Office now, the independent saying
14:03
has thrown doubt on those claims in a statement. Today a government spokesperson saying
14:09
the Home Office does not certify individuals to deliver training we do provide funding to civil society organisations
14:16
who may use individuals to deliver training on preventing extremism that's commissioned by local authorities
14:21
Which is a big difference. And again, and look, ultimately we're talking about
14:25
one now former council candidate, relatively insignificant, but there's an element of political judgement
14:30
Do you outsource? We're not talking here, I mean, there have been times in the past under Kemmy Baydnock's leadership where she's dug in
14:37
political leaders do. Sometimes one of their big senior front benches has either made a mistake or said something
14:42
rather controversial you think oh i'm not giving into the press on this you know they're staying in
14:46
my we're standby and this is a political principle we're talking about basically a nomad neo-nazi or
14:51
former neo-nazi here and i'm not entirely sure that if you're a conservative politician you
14:56
necessarily think that it's worth spending much political capital on this gentleman what about
14:59
the theory that these what i would regard as rather juvenile some of them funny but very
15:04
definitely juvenile sort of cartoonery using ai imagery that he engages in now very much in favor
15:10
of Kemi-Badenok or pro-Kemi-Badenok and very detrimental to other politicians. Is that what's driving it
15:21
Is she sticking with him because of that? Well, I don't know. I mean, she said that she's never seen those AI videos
15:26
but again, in which case, why are you defending him so assiduously? Look, I think that this is the sort of problem where
15:32
and all parties are finding this increasingly in the modern age, particularly as you get younger people
15:37
who might have been involved with the more and more of creating their own content and so on
15:41
you may get more of this sort of stuff. But look, this guy, I think, has a pretty long
15:45
pretty checkered history in all sorts of different ways, right up to the present day
15:50
if you dislike some of those AI videos. And generally speaking, I think, you know, politicians
15:55
the last thing you really want is other politicians making AI videos of or about other politicians
16:00
because that's the world that we're heading into. We're very, very soon. You can still, often though not always
16:04
we know, Sheila, we get, and these are satirical ones, so you'd obviously be able to tell. But nonetheless, we are heading into a world where, you know, AI is going to, in terms of the political realm, fundamentally undermine even our sense of what political reality might be
16:19
And that's something that far from necessarily finding funny or celebrating, we should probably be more wary of
16:24
It's about the representation of people, isn't it
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