Up next in 10
James O'Brien reacts as former neo-Nazi Joshua Bonehill-Paine withdraws as the Tory candidate for councillor.
Kemi Badenoch has now appointed the one-time neo-Nazi troll as an adviser to the party's culture and integration commission, an unpaid position with a focus on how young men can become radicalised.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
#jamesobrien #kemibadenoch #tories #conservative #ukpolitics #LBC
LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK.
Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/
Sign up to LBC's weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
I was unsatisfied with the phone-in that we had on Tuesday
0:03
about Joshua Bonehill-Payne, or the former neo-Nazi who was seeking to become a Conservative councillor
0:12
as he has become better known. You can't see the phrase former neo-Nazi in a headline
0:17
without stopping to have a look, can you? It's in a world where words are losing much of their power
0:23
with overuse and inaccurate use. Thank God they still matter. but not enough it would seem to persuade Kemi Badenok, the Tory leader
0:33
that he shouldn't be allowed anywhere near public office. She had defended him in very strong terms
0:43
although she did distinguish between local office and a, quote, national platform
0:49
saying he is standing to be a councillor in Somerset. It is a local platform looking at parking, sorting out bins
0:56
That's what councillors do. I think that's a little bit unfair on councillors, actually, Ms Baden-Ock
1:02
but given that you won't have done any research at all before making that statement, I suppose it is only to be expected
1:08
That's what councillors do. It's not a national platform. I have much higher thresholds for what it takes to be a Conservative MP
1:16
This man is not standing to be an MP. There's a huge difference
1:21
A few hours later, the man standing to be a councillor, but not an MP, because that's a crucial distinction, remember
1:28
The man standing to be a Conservative councillor said, the last 24 hours have shown that a lot of people do not understand
1:33
how terrible I feel about the things I did when I was much younger. I know that my previous actions continue to cause pain in the Jewish community
1:41
I had thought that getting involved in my local council and working hard for my community was a good way to show how much I have changed
1:49
He has now accepted an offer to become an advisor to the Conservative Party's Culture and Integration Commission
1:56
So, perhaps I'm reading this wrong, he's being given a national platform by Kemi Baden-Ock
2:04
I don't know what you consider to be more important, sorting out bins or being an advisor
2:09
to the Conservative Party's Culture and Integration Commission, specifically, and I quote
2:14
focusing on how young men become radicalised. Kemi Baden-Ock is sad. Sorry
2:21
Kemi Bedanoch is sad that Bonehill Payne has withdrawn, but, and I quote
2:25
glad he is going to work with me and the party on tackling radicalisation
2:30
And she said, I see this man as somebody who has been rehabilitated. I haven't seen any apologies from him
2:35
for his Islamophobic activity, but he was imprisoned, and this may be why he's focused on his apologies
2:43
to the Jewish community, because he was not imprisoned, I don't think, for the hatred directed at Muslims
2:50
he was imprisoned for producing an advert featuring an image of Auschwitz that promised
2:55
and I mean, I'm doing trigger warnings galore today, I don't think this needs one, but I'll tell you now, it's gross
3:01
He produced an advert for, I think it was for a rally, that promised an absolute gas
3:08
Get it? It's the kind of thing that Nigel Farage reportedly used to joke about
3:13
when he was at Dulwich College as a schoolboy, isn't it, according to several of his contemporaries at that school
3:19
but the picture of Auschwitz promising an absolute gas at a rally in Golders Green, a famously Jewish area of North London
3:31
And Luciana Berger, of course, a former Labour MP who now sits in the House of Lords, was the target of even more of his anti-Semitic hatred
3:39
describing her as an evil money grabber and alleging a deep-rooted hatred of men, which is always a bit of a red flag, isn't it
3:46
and he had also claimed that the number of Jewish Labour MPs was a, quote, problem
3:56
What if he's telling the truth? What if he's telling the truth
4:06
I think I know why Kemi Badenot has dropped the ball so spectacularly on this
4:10
because when I came off air on Tuesday I couldn quite believe I said ah this isn true this isn true I was a proper pendulum on Tuesday by which I simply mean that my position swang from one side to the other with almost every call
4:27
And I thought the clincher, it was the final caller that actually made me think I'd been a complete muppet
4:34
and that obviously you can't have a former neo-Nazi going into politics, whether it's local or national
4:39
but I'm going to be completely honest with you. I'm still a bit torn
4:44
and the reason why I'm torn is embarrassingly conceited, all right? The reason why I'm torn is because if you rang me
4:52
and told me that you used to be a Nazi, but that listening to this programme had cured you of your Nazism
5:02
then A, I would believe you, and B, I would be delighted to discover
5:07
that you are now dedicating yourself to spreading the word. But would I want you to be a counsellor
5:15
And the only bit of that imaginary scenario I can imagine, and there's two things going on
5:21
It wouldn't cross my mind that you were lying, or if it crossed my mind, I would dismiss it fairly quickly
5:26
That's what I mean by conceited. Possibly my own self-congratulation would drown out any voices of scepticism
5:34
But it would be a weird thing to do, right? to ring me and lie about this stuff
5:40
But then again, you know, weird things happen. But I just wanted to mention
5:44
that if I was looking at this story through that lens, ever so slightly rose-tinted by imagined personal involvement
5:54
then I would have arrived at a different conclusion from the one that I arrive at when looking at through the lens of
5:59
for example, Kemi Badenoch's absurdity and ridiculousness. so what questions are raised by this story can rehabilitation ever be so complete and absolute
6:11
yeah i absolutely believe that it can i completely believe um that a former nazi can become
6:18
a tireless and passionate campaigner for decency and equality i passionately believe that and i
6:24
think i always will even if you find me a former nazi who's lying about it and gets busted for
6:29
lying about it or has gone back to his old ways. I'd still believe in the power of redemption and rehabilitation
6:35
for all the other Nazis. You kind of have to, right? It's kind of the human condition
6:43
So that's question number one. Question number two, should a reformed Nazi be allowed to be a councillor
6:48
for any party? I don't think it was very funny when you got in touch with me on Tuesday
6:54
to suggest the fact that he'd chosen a Conservative Party meant that he couldn't be that reformed
6:58
That's not fair. We've got far-right politics in this country at the moment
7:02
in a way that has never been in the mainstream in the way that it is now
7:07
The National Front and BNP must be sitting there thinking, what the hell did we do wrong in the 1970s and 80s
7:12
We'd be on top of the opinion polls these days or we'd be winning council seats
7:20
But that's not the point either because this guy has eschewed far-right ideology
7:25
and embraced Kemi Baden-Ock's Conservative Party. And there were a few of the things that she said
7:37
I mean, I'm tempted to add another question to the list, which is why on earth is Kemi Baden-Ock sad
7:41
But we'd be here all day, wouldn't we? A few of the things that she'd said I found really persuasive
7:47
How can you believe in... This is, I suppose, the phone-in, all right? How can you believe in rehabilitation, which I do
7:53
I believe in the power of redemption. I believe it is entirely possible to abandon hatred, bigotry
7:59
the farthest right ideology imaginable, because of what it means to be human
8:06
So someone who watches the television and sees brown and black faces
8:10
and says that it drives her mad, I believe it's possible for her to stop feeling mad
8:15
when she sees brown and black faces, with a little bit of help and a little bit of empathy, perhaps
8:22
I just believe that it possible to abandon completely not just to edge away from but to abandon completely all of the ancient hatreds You know But that not necessarily grounds for saying
8:40
yeah, of course you can be a counsellor. Of course you can be a counsellor
8:44
I mean, I'm tempted to ask you very simply, what do you think of this story
8:51
Let's do that first. 03456060973. Because I don't know whether I'm coming or going
8:58
I simultaneously think it's absolutely absurd. This is mad. This is cognitive dissonance
9:03
This is exactly the thing I always castigate other people for. It's absolutely bonkers that Kami Bader not thought a former neo-Nazi
9:12
who's been to jail for anti-Semitic hatred could be a councillor just a few years later
9:19
It's bonkers, right? By all the metrics of politics or democratic discourse
9:24
this is beyond belief. She still doesn't get it. She's still sad that he's not
9:31
But at the same time, I passionately believe, and I don't use that word very often
9:36
I passionately believe that you can undergo 180-degree reversals of your beliefs and opinions
9:45
I've done it myself on much less serious issues and much less serious levels
9:50
but still things that I took to be completely true, I now find ridiculous
9:56
I now find ridiculous. And more in the arena of opinions, not in the arena of race hate, I grant you
10:03
But I suppose in a way, the question to us is, could I become a Nazi
10:09
With a prevailing wind behind me and some evil influences around me
10:16
If I'd been raised by Nazis, would I be a Nazi? Can I become a Nazi
10:21
Because if I could become a Nazi, then a Nazi can become a non-Nazi or a former Nazi
10:26
An ex-Nazi, don't mention Monty Python at this point, just making the nerd sound like a dead parrot
10:37
What, what, yeah, that's it, actually. What is this story about? 0345 6060 973
10:46
My religion is Christianity. I was raised a Catholic. Catholicism or Christianity is still a great comfort to me
10:52
at times in my life, while simultaneously I fully accept the ysis of people
10:58
who think it's all a load of nonsense about sky fairies. A bit more cognitive dissonance, I suppose
11:02
I've always thought of religion in my quieter moments as doing two things
11:07
Number one, it provides you with a sort of solace, you know, in the same way that some people might meditate
11:14
or go to yoga or even watch football. It just lets you get out of your own head for a while
11:19
and reflect upon things that you would benefit from reflecting on. There's a relationship between what I'm describing and what we were talking about in the last hour
11:28
You know, my mental health is improved by spending time in church sometimes, on my own, not even a church service
11:35
And sometimes I go along to a church service and it makes me feel part of something bigger
11:39
And the other thing that my religion has given me over the life is a desire to paraphrase Jack Nicholson in As Good As It Gets
11:48
It makes me want to be a better person. Right? You make me want to be a better person
11:54
And that's not a bad thing to feel either, right? You kind of want to be a better person
11:59
But Catholicism also teaches very deeply the concepts of redemption and forgiveness
12:06
Forgiveness. You know, what is the saying? To err is human, to forgive is divine
12:13
I've probably made that up or misremembered it completely. And I'm not the target of this character's
12:21
although having said that, back in the day, I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of the people
12:25
that would come for me on Twitter, given some of his other targets and political attitudes
12:30
But I was not the target of his hatred. I am not Jewish. I am not Muslim
12:36
I was not the target of the hatred, so it's not for me to forgive
12:41
But to err is human, to forgive is divine. is divine. It's one of the most powerful things
12:45
things that a human being can do is to forgive So what is the relationship between redemption and forgiveness Here a phone
12:57
for you, lads. What's the relationship between redemption, forgiveness, and Nazism? 0345 6060973
13:05
Is it that word? I love the way Sheila says it, by the way. I love the way all
13:09
Liverpudlians say Nazi. It's somehow got a sharper ring to it when it comes out of a scouse's mouth
13:15
Nazi. I say Nazi. I don't know why. I say Bath, to be honest with you. Hardly anyone says Bath
13:20
And if you want to continue down the Catholic tip, I say Mass instead of Mass. I don't think
13:24
anyone says Mass instead of Mass in this country except people who went to my actual school
13:29
Mass. What on earth is Mass? I'm going to Mass on Sunday. Mass, Mass. I still say it
13:35
So I believe in the gods of America. No, I believe in forgiveness. I passionately believe
13:42
in forgiveness, redemption, rehabilitation. And if you believe passionately in forgiveness, redemption and rehabilitation
13:49
then you should extend that forgiveness to a former Nazi who wants to be a counsellor
13:56
Right? Right? So why can't I? Or why can't you? Or why can you
14:05
Why can you? What is it about this history that made that future so impossible or so undesirable
14:18
How can you believe in redemption, rehabilitation and forgiveness deeply, properly, powerfully
14:29
For the record, I don't think Kemi Bader not does, actually, because of the way she's talked about other people in the past
14:34
but I do. You'll have to take my word for it. I believe passionately in this, to the point where on Tuesday
14:40
I was arguing that he should be allowed to run. And then by the end of that phone-in
14:45
I was thinking, what the hell was wrong with you? And then I'm on the bus home and I'm thinking
14:50
no, he should be allowed to run. And then I'm on the tube and I'm thinking, no, he shouldn't be allowed
14:54
I'm literally, I can't remember the last time I was in such a tizzy. You probably can, don't at me
14:59
But it may, and talking to colleagues as well. I often envy certainty
15:04
And at other times, I really don't envy certainty because I think certainty can be really dangerous
15:09
If certainty is the married to in curiosity, it's really dangerous. I've got really strong opinions
15:15
Remember that caller we had a few months ago? I've got really strong opinions, but don't ask me to back any of them up
15:21
They're the most dangerous people on the planet, apart from the Nazis. Why can't I make my mind up
15:27
Can I do a phone-in on that? Why can't I make my mind up about this? 03456060973
15:34
It just shouldn't be allowed to run for... But we forgive. We teach each other to forgive
15:39
We teach our children to forgive. But we're not going to forgive this guy
15:46
0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. Again, Kemi Bader not has managed to take a situation
15:56
that was already toxic and somehow render it simultaneously worse and ridiculous
16:03
She's stuck up for him and lo and behold, he's pulled himself out of the council election anyway
16:12
So she's got the fact that she's stuck up for the Nazi, the former Nazi, she's got that hung round her neck
16:18
and she hasn't even got the victory, such as it would be, of him ending up on the council anyway
16:23
Just so you know, because Luciana Berger spoke very powerfully about this yesterday, it was during the court case involving her
16:30
that he thought it appropriate to do a Nazi salute, or a Nazi salute, as she would say, Sheila
16:37
a Nazi salute in the Old Bailey in the direction of his supporters in the gallery
16:41
And that was when he was on trial for publishing a series of blog posts about her
16:47
How can you... Here's the question. I got there in the end. It's nearly half past
16:52
How can you simultaneously believe as deeply as I do in the power and the importance of forgiveness and redemption
16:59
and still think that Cammy Badenot was absolutely bonkers to think that this bloke could be a councillor
17:05
How can you have both of those opinions at the same time
#news