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James Hanson is joined by political commentator Ellie Hodges and Labour campaigner Jovan Owusu-Nepaul to debate if Nigel Farage really the victim of an establishment hit job. All major parties have opted not to stand candidates in the Clacton by-election, with many criticising the Reform leader for having a 'political tantrum'. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jameshanson #reform #nigelfarage #TypeInTopic #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Is the establishment out to get Nigel Farage
0:02
Yes, I think it is, but I think before we have this kind of discussion, or some would say debate
0:08
I think it's important to actually define what we mean by establishment, because I've seen all over my social media, when I say
0:14
I think the establishment is out to get Nigel Farage, a lot of people reply and say
0:18
but Nigel Farage is the establishment. Whereas I don't think he is, because I think that the establishment is not simply people who are just wealthy or even influential
0:26
is people who are part of the network of existing institutions and have an interest, I think, in maintaining the status quo
0:34
of what the political agenda is saying. And Nigel Farge has spent his whole entire political career
0:38
fighting against the establishment. So I think people who are saying that he is part of the establishment
0:43
are completely incorrect because he's absolutely not. And so reform, you say, is an anti-establishment party
0:49
led by an anti-establishment leader? Yes, absolutely. Jovan? Yeah, I think that's a very kind of sophisticated reading
0:55
of what it is to be establishment or not. But when you're out and about speaking to residents locking on doors
1:02
people have a view as to what the establishment is. And those are largely people maybe down in Westminster
1:06
or who harbour or inherit some of our institutions. And I think that distinguish isn't so clear
1:12
So when you're looking at somebody who has taken £5 million from somebody
1:17
who has spent a lifetime in the European Parliament, who comes from quite a prestigious, wealthy background in the first place
1:25
it's hard not to see somebody like Farage as a counter to the establishment
1:29
I mean, there's lots of people in the Labour Party, though, who are from very wealthy families
1:33
I don't think just because someone's wealthy it means that they're automatically part of the establishment
1:37
Well, no. I mean, I understand where you're coming from, but I think in the kind of day-to-day understanding
1:42
as to what we see the establishment, which I think most people are concerned by
1:46
people like Farage embody what the establishment is. And I think some of the events over the last couple of weeks
1:51
and the last couple of days highlight to a point how establishment he is
1:57
What would you say establishment is if you had to kind of explain it to someone
2:01
I think it's somebody, as you say, who engages and inherits some of our most illustrious institutions
2:06
who have been a part of them for a long time, who may have some access to wealth and power
2:12
And yes, you're right, people from across the political parties are part of an establishment
2:17
But to suggest that just because he is against that politically that he's not, I think..
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But aren't there different types of establishment? so on one level in terms of his personal background you could say he's part of a kind of
2:28
middle class upper middle class establishment because he went to a private school and he made
2:33
a lot of money in the city etc but he's not part of the political establishment is he because
2:38
he's been fighting for causes that have been fringe often to begin with and he's he's brought
2:44
them into the mainstream over his career jovan yeah i mean but at the same time he's somebody
2:48
He's sat in the European Parliament for about 20 years. He was fighting against it, though
2:53
Yes, but he was returned time and time again. He has sat in the European Parliament for a significant period of time
3:00
He's had close approximations to power. Again not just him but you look at some of the members of Reform UK We got a former Home Secretary a former Immigration Minister The idea that even by association he couldn be part of a political establishment
3:14
I think is kind of ridiculous. Just before we go any further, obviously we have the Clacton by-election approaching
3:20
Let me just read out the list of candidates we have at the moment. Nominations for the Clacton by-election close on Friday the 17th of July
3:27
when we will have the full list of confirmed candidates. But so far we have Atam Al-Khatib from the Forward Party
3:34
Count Binface, independent. Piers Corbyn, independent. Nigel Farage of Reformer UK. Lawrence Fox of Reclaim
3:42
Ollie Granger, independent. Rob Pownall, independent. Amelia Randall from Balanced Britain Party
3:48
Kai Stevens for the British Democrats. And Luke Worley, independent candidate. Now, Ellie, on this £5 million gift from Christopher Harbour
3:56
Nigel Farage in his press conference earlier this week when he announced the by-election
4:00
sort of claimed that the allegations over that a link to some kind of establishment hit job
4:05
Is it a smear? Is it a hit job to raise questions over his finances? I don't think that it's a smear, actually, to raise questions
4:12
I think that everyone has a right to actually question. We saw with Lord Ali, all of these different scandals
4:17
that the Labour Party have had, where right-wing people have rightly called them out for it
4:22
However, this £5 million donation, we still don't know the facts about it, which is fair to say
4:26
Nigel Farage has come out in his speech and said it was for security. What we do know is that the Home Office
4:31
reduced his security budget by 70%, which is outrageous. And another example of where the establishment is using its power, I would say
4:40
So rightly, people can ask questions. I think that's fine. But I think the way in which they've gone about it isn't right
4:46
And dirty tactics have been used. In what way have dirty tactics been used
4:50
I think dirty tactics have been used more generally against reform. For example, we've seen Richard Tice has reported the National Crime Agency
4:57
for leaking his bank statements and conversations with his bank. that is outrageous and that is what I would say is dirty tactics
5:03
He's alleging that, but we haven't heard anything from the National Crime Agency to confirm that it was them who leaked it
5:08
I don't think he would just make that up for no reason, though. Jovan? I mean, it's the right-of-centred newspapers
5:15
who are leading on some of these scrutinies. The establishment. The establishment
5:20
I mean, the Times newspaper, for example, the Sunday Times, they had a big investigation last weekend into George Cottrell
5:25
the convicted criminal who has been giving gifts, not many of which appear to be declared to Nigel Farage
5:31
you could say the Sunday Times is part of the establishment. I think that's probably fair
5:36
Well, I think that would be fair to say. I mean, they're an establishment that's been going on for almost, what
5:39
200 years or something in this country. So, yes, but when you look at where the scrutiny has been led by
5:45
it's not people who are sympathetic to a lot of the worldview that I have
5:50
as someone who sits on the left. But in all of this, this scrutiny that he's facing
5:56
he's a man who wants to be the Prime Minister. And I think a failure to declare some of these most obvious things that every MP has to go
6:04
through I think is, on his part, regrettable. Every MP should just follow the rules and his shirtiness when it came to a lot of it
6:13
in recent days I think highlights that he evidently has something that he not comfortable with sharing just yet So you think it almost as if he got something to hide
6:24
Well, I think we should have allowed for the parliamentary process to find out whatever they needed to investigate
6:30
And that would have been... But we're even speaking now as if he's 100% guilty. We don't actually know that yet
6:36
Well, the process should be allowed for us to find that out, surely. And the process will happen if he's re-elected
6:41
Well, yeah, of course. It's not like this is all suddenly going to stop. These questions will continue
6:45
Do you think he wants the investigation to conclude, though, Ellie? Probably not. Of course not
6:51
Why not? Because he probably doesn't want the answer to be negative
6:55
Of course he doesn't. And if the answer is negative... And any person would be like that, any politician from any party
7:01
But if the answer was negative, do you think he would accept it? Do you think he'd take it on the chin
7:05
Or do you think he would accuse, for example, the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner, who was investigating
7:09
now paused because of the by-election, Do you think he'd accuse him of also being part of the establishment
7:15
I think he probably would, but there could be some truth to that. I mean, we've seen Kevin Hollenrake is now actually under investigation
7:21
for trying to influence the commissioner's opinions and try and lobby him in some ways to have certain beliefs towards Nigel Farage
7:30
So this is the kind of stuff that is going to happen. And then it's kind of, you can't really deny that there's an establishment hit job
7:37
when you see that kind of stuff happening. And I think since Nigel has announced his by-election, we've seen political parties from all across the political spectrum, from the Liberal Democrats to Restore, coming together to be anti-Nigel Farage and pro-Count Binface
7:51
That's how I would say the establishment works. Jovan, what about reform as a party? Are reform now part of the political mainstream or are they anti-establishment disruptors still
8:04
I think the sentiment that they're able to successfully espouse is one that is anti-establishment
8:10
that accuses the two major parties of being the uni party. And I think that has some resonance across the country
8:17
But as I said before, you've got somebody who's a former Home Secretary. You've got an immigration minister who presided over a significant level of immigration that they're all now railing against
8:26
The idea that Reform, Reform UK is an anti-establishment party or is there to serve the interests of the majority of the country
8:34
against a so-called establishment, I think is just laughable and for the birds
8:39
The record is quite clear and quite obvious, I think, for many people. They haven't voted in Parliament on the side of the majority of people
8:46
when it comes to some of the workers' rights legislation. They've been making a lot of money elsewhere outside of being a parliamentarian
8:54
and they've just got a load of Tories sitting as part of their bench
8:58
Why do you think they're still at the top of the polls then? Well, I think that comes down to the fact that the two main parties
9:04
over the last couple of months haven't been as strong as they ought to. And I think some of those things will begin to change
9:10
And as people see more of Farage, I think people will make some of their mind
9:14
Can I ask you about this phrase, the Uniparty? Because, Ellie, presumably you do think the Conservatives, Labour
9:21
and I guessing the Lib Dems as well are the Uniparty that basically they they all the same it it it two cheeks of the same backside basically is that how you see it yeah i i think so and i think that we see how they act when nigel
9:35
frage comes into the picture of just being anti-nigel frage and this is what's happened with
9:40
this by-election as soon as he announced it they all came together all of these political parties
9:44
to be anti-nigel frage and they all come together and that's how i would say the establishment and
9:48
the uni party works. But Jovan, I mean, you're a Labour man. Presumably you don't feel like you
9:54
are part of the same political consensus as Kemi Baden-Ock. Of course not. I wouldn't have spent 15
9:59
years of my life trying to get rid of the Tories if I thought we were part of the same project
10:04
Fundamentally, I think the two main parties have a different philosophy, a different political
10:09
approach, evidently a different record over the last, throughout the 21st century. So the idea
10:14
that you can just nascently accuse the two main parties who have taken the country down very different paths
10:20
as part of the Uniparty because they seemingly oppose... Well, do oppose Nigel Farage
10:26
I think he's ridiculous. Would you work with the Conservatives to be anti-Nigel Farage
10:31
To stop reform getting in, would you work with the Conservatives? I would work personally with anybody to stop Nigel Farage
10:36
Yes, see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. But that doesn't mean that I align myself explicitly
10:39
with the Tories, the Lib Dems. But you're willing to put that aside, to be anti-Nigel Farge and to stop a reformed government getting in
10:45
And I think the Conservatives are the same in that way, even though the Conservatives and Reform are actually not that unsimilar
10:51
when it comes to political beliefs. But where does legitimate criticism of your political opponents stop
10:58
and a smear campaign or an establishment hit job start? Because, yeah, it's not rocket science
11:03
If you're in a different political party to someone, you're going to criticise them, you're going to try and pounce
11:07
on every negative story, trying to bring them down, etc. Is that what the mainstream parties are currently doing with reform
11:15
or is it a kind of organised smear campaign, Ellie? Well, I think it is organised because they're all coming together
11:21
in order to stop Nigel Farage, and I think that we will see during this by-election
11:25
some extremely dirty tactics being used. And I think the allegation from Richard Tyce
11:30
that the National Crime Agency have leaked his bank statements and his conversations with his bank to The Guardian
11:37
I think is absolutely disgusting, and that's what I mean by dirty tactics and I think we'll see much more of that
11:42
we saw Sky News turning up at Nigel Farage's daughter's house I mean, these kind of things that I don't think are happening to other politicians
11:49
but are happening to Nigel Farage Well, other politicians get doorsteps But the establishment see him as fair game, I think it's fair to say
11:55
Jovan, final thoughts? Well, I think it's quite good of the main parties
11:59
not to be brought into this Shambai election the whole essence of it was to set the debate again on his terms
12:06
to refocus attention when actually there's an incoming prime minister, there will be a new kind of plan for government
12:13
The country has a kind of direction that it needs to be pushed into
12:18
And so we should be focusing our attention actually on the issues that matter rather than being brought into what is increasingly inexpensive in Shambha election
12:26
Jovan Awusu-Napal, co-presenter of the political podcast What's Left and Labour campaigner who ran against Nigel Farage and Clacton in 2024
12:33
and Ellie Hodges, political commentator and broadcaster. Thank you both so much for coming in
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Um
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